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BIGBENFASTWILLIE
12-23-2009, 10:14 AM
much is said about the play calling of Bruce Arians. Many would like to see him gone. I completely agree at times throughout the year.
However, looking at the stats is Bruce Arians should get the credit and maybe its the defensive coaching that should be deemed unfit to coach another game?

Ben should be a 4,000-yard passer,we have two 1,000-yard receivers, along with a 1,000-yard rusher and a tight end with more receptions than any in steelers history.

If our defense played anything like it did a year ago today we just might be in the hunt with the Colts as undefeated teams.

It is not the offense that has put us behind it is the defense. Why blame Arians?

But then again...... Maybe the credit should go to Big Ben for bailing Arians out all year. like he did Tomlin this past week:coffee:

zulater
12-23-2009, 10:25 AM
much is said about the play calling of Bruce Arians. Many would like to see him gone. I completely agree at times throughout the year.
However, looking at the stats is Bruce Arians should get the credit and maybe its the defensive coaching that should be deemed unfit to coach another game?

Ben should be a 4,000-yard passer,we have two 1,000-yard receivers, along with a 1,000-yard rusher and a tight end with more receptions than any in steelers history.

If our defense played anything like it did a year ago today we just might be in the hunt with the Colts as undefeated teams.

It is not the offense that has put us behind it is the defense. Why blame Arians?

But then again...... Maybe the credit should go to Big Ben for bailing Arians out all year. like he did Tomlin this past week:coffee:

The offense has underperformed on third and fourth downs, in the red zone and on the score board. Stats are meaningless if they don't translate into points.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-23-2009, 10:41 AM
However, looking at the stats is Bruce Arians should get the credit and maybe its the defensive coaching that should be deemed unfit to coach another game?

:

You just advocated for the firing of Dick LeBeau and suggested he is "unfit to coach another game". :rofl: I'll bump this one in August when LeBeau gets inducted into the Hall of Fame.

OK, we can pretty much file this thread with some of the great gems posted by mmalone.

Stlrs4Life
12-23-2009, 11:00 AM
much is said about the play calling of Bruce Arians. Many would like to see him gone. I completely agree at times throughout the year.
However, looking at the stats is Bruce Arians should get the credit and maybe its the defensive coaching that should be deemed unfit to coach another game?

Ben should be a 4,000-yard passer,we have two 1,000-yard receivers, along with a 1,000-yard rusher and a tight end with more receptions than any in steelers history.

If our defense played anything like it did a year ago today we just might be in the hunt with the Colts as undefeated teams.

It is not the offense that has put us behind it is the defense. Why blame Arians?

But then again...... Maybe the credit should go to Big Ben for bailing Arians out all year. like he did Tomlin this past week:coffee:



It is not Lebeaus fault, it's not the plan, it's the personnel that we have on the field, mainly scum like Gay, and Tyrone Carter.

steelcity1974
12-23-2009, 11:14 AM
The offense has underperformed on third and fourth downs, in the red zone and on the score board. Stats are meaningless if they don't translate into points.

100% correct. Even though we are #8 in the NFL in yards per game, we are 15 in points per game. Every one of the 7 teams ahead of us in YPG have more PPG than us, plus 7 more teams that have fewer YPG than us. I'd be interested in knowing what our Red Zone offense ranks. Ben has thrown at least two picks (Chiefs and Raiders) on 1st down in the red zone. Maybe bad play calling...definitely bad decision making on Ben's part. 1st down...nothing there...throw it away. Gotta get TDs...at least FGs.

markymarc
12-23-2009, 12:18 PM
The offense has underperformed on third and fourth downs, in the red zone and on the score board. Stats are meaningless if they don't translate into points.

Absolutely!

revefsreleets
12-23-2009, 12:28 PM
Congratulation! You just launched the ONE MILLIONTH Bruce Arians thread on Steelers Fever! You win a giant fat head of..................................Bruce Arians for your wall!

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
12-23-2009, 02:05 PM
You just advocated for the firing of Dick LeBeau and suggested he is "unfit to coach another game". :rofl: I'll bump this one in August when LeBeau gets inducted into the Hall of Fame.

OK, we can pretty much file this thread with some of the great gems posted by mmalone.

I give LeBeau credit when he deserves it... and this year he does not.. Sorry but look at the way our defense has played.... Not saying it is his fault but there are defensive coaches not getting the job done this year.

pepsyman1
12-23-2009, 03:04 PM
I give LeBeau credit when he deserves it... and this year he does not.. Sorry but look at the way our defense has played.... Not saying it is his fault but there are defensive coaches not getting the job done this year.

I'll agree with you on that one. I love Dick Lebeau, I think he's the best....and I KNOW we are missing two key cogs in our personnel, but good coaches need to adjust to the personnel we HAVE and not depend on schemes that work best with personnel that we don't currently have on the field. I'm surely no defensive guru...Dick Lebeau is and I'm looking for him to make some adjustments to deal with the weakness of our secondary....THAT'S the only thing I fault with Lebeau this year. I have no problem with working from the assumption that the replacement players will "step up", but once it became obvious that they couldn't he should have started making adjustments.

Preacher
12-23-2009, 03:27 PM
Lebeau deserves a lot of blame this year for this defense. Either he 1. has not called the right calls or 2. has not brought in the right player personnel for his schemes if someone else gets hurt.

He has been here long enough that he DOES carry that responsibility. We have seen before where the pass defense of his has been the Achilles heal of the schemes.

However. I think with adjustments, we can fix it in the offseason. So no, I DONT think he needs to be gone. That is silly.

Arians needs to be sat on a bit more. I think we saw a bit more of Tomlin's hand in the offense this week in the gameplanning. If that is what happened, I LIKE that combination.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-23-2009, 05:25 PM
I give LeBeau credit when he deserves it... and this year he does not.. Sorry but look at the way our defense has played.... Not saying it is his fault but there are defensive coaches not getting the job done this year.

I guess you are right. After 50 successful years in professional football, Dick LeBeau suddenly got stupid this year around game 9 in the season. :kick:

mesaSteeler
12-23-2009, 06:06 PM
I guess you are right. After 50 successful years in professional football, Dick LeBeau suddenly got stupid this year around game 9 in the season. :kick:
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

He also had one of the best all time defenses in the NFL last year.

HometownGal
12-23-2009, 06:25 PM
I give LeBeau credit when he deserves it... and this year he does not.. Sorry but look at the way our defense has played.... Not saying it is his fault but there are defensive coaches not getting the job done this year.

Bu, bu, but Troy and Smith . . . . :chuckle:

Anywho - though I wholeheartedly agree that our D has blown chunks this season and is directly responsible for giving at least 4 games away to our opponents, as I've stated all season long (and got scoffed at) - it really boils down to execution. Our D doesn't finish tackles (not only the secondary), doesn't give that extra effort to force turnovers as they did last season, and when the 4Q comes around, they look tired, dazed and in a state of confusion. Papa Lebeau is the best DC to ever hold that title in the NFL and I'm sure he is just as much, if not more, frustrated with his unit as those of us who clearly see that the D has been the achilles heel this season.

To keep with the spirit of the thread, my answer (no surprises here) is NO - Arians is NOT deserving of all of the bullshit and flack he receives from the fans and some of the sports media here in Pittsburgh (there are a few of the sports jocks around here who support him as I do). Though I don't always agree with his playcalls, I am firm in my opinion that execution is the name of the game, whether on ST's, O or D. Amen.

Preacher
12-23-2009, 06:58 PM
I guess you are right. After 50 successful years in professional football, Dick LeBeau suddenly got stupid this year around game 9 in the season. :kick:

Come on El G.

What about 2006? He was our DC then too. How about the second half of 2007?

How about his time with the Bengals, 97-2002? The best he ranked was 14th in points and 9th in yards. Most of the time, it was in the lowest third.

How about his defenses with the Bengals between 84 and 91? They ranked in the 20's most of the time, with the highest ranking being 7th in points nad 15th in yards. That was only once. It was the bottom third outside of that (Middle third once in each stat)

Matter of fact, it wasn't until he already inherited a solid defense in Pittsburgh that he started ranking high.

____________________

Do I like Lebeau's defense? Yes, I love it.

But let's be realistic. His 7 years as a DC in Cinci was mediocre at best. His 2 years at Pittsburgh was helped greatly be coming into a top defense.
His next 3 years in Cinci was again mediocre.
His last stint here has been pretty dang good. However, 2006 showed cracks. 2007 lists us as 2nd in points and 1st in yards, but we all remember how the defense was stifling the first half and then couldn't stop anything the second half... so those stats are a little misleading.

So I really don't see a problem asking if offenses have figured out his scheming. He isn't the great untouchable. People game film his defenses just like everyone elses... AND, in the fourth quarter, we are the worst defense in the NFL. That has been true ALL YEAR.

Something that consistent tells me we have a few problems.

Just like with Arians and the offense, it isn't "Just the Coach" It isn't "Just Execution" it isn't "Just the playcalls" and it sure isn't "Just because Troy and Aaron are out" as last year's playoffs expose. There is a flaw in the scheming.

I am sure Lebeau and Tomlin both see it... and will fix it in the offseason. But some blame for the failures DOES lay at Lebeau's feet... just as some offensive blame lays at the feet of Arians.

cubanstogie
12-23-2009, 07:06 PM
You just advocated for the firing of Dick LeBeau and suggested he is "unfit to coach another game". :rofl: I'll bump this one in August when LeBeau gets inducted into the Hall of Fame.

OK, we can pretty much file this thread with some of the great gems posted by mmalone.

That is why I don't blame Arians for Steelers' woes. The D has been crap the last 5 games and in the 4th quarter all year, do we blame the great LeBeau, hell no.Not Dicks fault Carter can't cover, run or tackle anymore. Or that Gay can't tackle or cover either. I still think the O line is the main problem on offense, they have their good games I will be first to admit but they don't show up in others which forces Ben to have to make great plays all game long, or take a sack. I would love to draft some stud lineman who could get us back to running power football, which is what I love and which is traditional Steelers football. Problem now we have seemingly bigger holes in our secondary, and our best cover man in Ike is no spring chicken. That is why its hard to have a dynasty team, its tough always being on top. The great thing about the Steelers is the playoffs is almost a given most years and thats why we as fans get frustrated when they struggle.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-23-2009, 07:45 PM
Preacher, ......LeBeau has a track record of success as a player, as a coach. Tough to judge a guy on his time with the Bengals when the Brown family was so cheap they were sending their coaches to the scouting combine on a bus, while the rest of the NFL purchased plane tickets.

Cubanstogie, I don't blame Arians for the Steelers woes, but have seen the shortcomings of a pass first, run 2nd offense since he was the OC in Cleveland. It may work with warm climate teams, dome teams, etc, but when you have to play in December and January in the Northeast......you will be at a disadvantage.

In short, LeBeau is missing pieces starters and the backups in Kirschke, Carter, Gay, are not filling in. Add that Potsie looks really old and slow, plus the fact they are getting no pressure on the QB and its a recipe for disaster.

Offensively, the Steelers are putting up numbers in the air and moving the ball via the pass, but when they cannot pass the ball effectively, they dont have a strong enough run game to move the chains consistently and keep the offense on the field. It reminds me so much of the Browns offenses of the early 2000's that Arians lead with WR's like Kevin Johnson, Northcutt, Andre Davis and Quincy Morgan.

Preacher
12-23-2009, 07:54 PM
Preacher, ......LeBeau has a track record of success as a player, as a coach. Tough to judge a guy on his time with the Bengals when the Brown family was so cheap they were sending their coaches to the scouting combine on a bus, while the rest of the NFL purchased plane tickets..

:chuckle: I give you a point about the cheapness of the Browns.

But the counterpoint is that his only successes have been with the Steelers, and that with a team that already had solid players on it.

Look, I am not looking do dog LeBeau, I absolutely love him as a D coordinator. I just think that he has as much to answer for this year, as people think Arians has to answer for with the offense. I don't think he can be "let off the hook" and not be held responsible.

I also think, as I said before, that he and Tomlin will get together in the offseason and fix it.

As far as our run game goes, I agree. That is why I keep hammering on balance. Then again, with our first 1000 yard rusher since 2007, maybe we are headed back there.

cubanstogie
12-23-2009, 09:51 PM
Preacher, ......LeBeau has a track record of success as a player, as a coach. Tough to judge a guy on his time with the Bengals when the Brown family was so cheap they were sending their coaches to the scouting combine on a bus, while the rest of the NFL purchased plane tickets.

Cubanstogie, I don't blame Arians for the Steelers woes, but have seen the shortcomings of a pass first, run 2nd offense since he was the OC in Cleveland. It may work with warm climate teams, dome teams, etc, but when you have to play in December and January in the Northeast......you will be at a disadvantage.

In short, LeBeau is missing pieces starters and the backups in Kirschke, Carter, Gay, are not filling in. Add that Potsie looks really old and slow, plus the fact they are getting no pressure on the QB and its a recipe for disaster.

Offensively, the Steelers are putting up numbers in the air and moving the ball via the pass, but when they cannot pass the ball effectively, they dont have a strong enough run game to move the chains consistently and keep the offense on the field. It reminds me so much of the Browns offenses of the early 2000's that Arians lead with WR's like Kevin Johnson, Northcutt, Andre Davis and Quincy Morgan.

I would love to have the run first power football with the line dominating, along with a strong D. Your absolutely right thats the kind of football that wins in December. I am not sure its because Arians philosophy is opposite of that or its because our line just isn't dominating enough. I have always thought Arians has done well with the hand he was dealt , but its hard to say if a different OC could get more out of our running game. I guess time will tell, I am starting to think this year may be the end.

#1LambertFan
12-23-2009, 11:13 PM
How did this go from another should Arians be fired to the first should Labeau be fired thread that I have seen? Either way I;m gonna throw my two cents in about both.

Arians- No. Zeirlan is the only coach that we need to be rid of. Arians is intelligent, and in case you havent noticed, look at how our offensive players are blossoming into stars under him. Whether this is directly his coaching or his suggestions on draft day he is doing MOST of the right things.

Labeau- What are you all thinking? How often does he let us down? NO NO NO NO! I love Labeau. His defenses have revolutionized football. Great coach on all facets.

Now to preach to you all about how one player missing can make an impact. If you remove one card from the bottom of the pyramid it's gonna fall. We lost arguably the two most important players on our defense, so to make that analogy work, try removing two cards now. We are no longer a cohesive unit. Our defense is built around a defensive line of 3 men that can stop runs at, or 1-2 yards beyond the line of scrimmage 9 out of 10 times. I believe Smith is our best lineman, but you can argue with me on that all you want. Polamalu is great at stopping the run but he is incredible in coverage. QB's are terrified of throwing his way so they hold on to the ball longer giving our LB corps, who get much help from the D Line, the time to go in for the kill via sack. This however is a catch 22 my friends. Because the LB's get the fear and respect from opposing teams that cause a quarterback to make a silly throw that leads to Troy looking better. This part of my post was not to take away from the linebackers' success but to explain how this machine was built.

tony hipchest
12-23-2009, 11:47 PM
How about his defenses with the Bengals between 84 and 91? They ranked in the 20's most of the time, with the highest ranking being 7th in points nad 15th in yards. That was only once. It was the bottom third outside of that (Middle third once in each stat)

Do I like Lebeau's defense? Yes, I love it.

But let's be realistic. His 7 years as a DC in Cinci was mediocre at best. His 2 years at Pittsburgh was helped greatly be coming into a top defense.
His next 3 years in Cinci was again mediocre.
.

c'mon preacher, lets be realistic. this arians apology campaign is rediculous.

maybe you wanna look at the bengals 2 appearances in the superbowl vs the mighty montana/walsh led 49ers, before making such claims.

"mediocre at best"???? :toofunny:

holy cow! this is almost as absurd as revs claim that bill walsh couldnt coach this 09 steelers defending championship team to score more than 6 points vs. the browns. :laughing:

you guys are absolutely insane! my only guess to this absurdity is that arians has photos of y'all...

seriously guys... im sure there is a circus hiring out there somewhere. :party:

tony hipchest
12-23-2009, 11:53 PM
Now to preach to you all about how one player missing can make an impact. If you remove one card from the bottom of the pyramid it's gonna fall. We lost arguably the two most important players on our defense, so to make that analogy work, try removing two cards now. We are no longer a cohesive unit. Our defense is built around a defensive line of 3 men that can stop runs at, or 1-2 yards beyond the line of scrimmage 9 out of 10 times. I believe Smith is our best lineman, but you can argue with me on that all you want. Polamalu is great at stopping the run but he is incredible in coverage. QB's are terrified of throwing his way so they hold on to the ball longer giving our LB corps, who get much help from the D Line, the time to go in for the kill via sack. This however is a catch 22 my friends. Because the LB's get the fear and respect from opposing teams that cause a quarterback to make a silly throw that leads to Troy looking better. This part of my post was not to take away from the linebackers' success but to explain how this machine was built.while i totally agree with this analogy 100%, there seems to be a pretty strong faction here that believes that if you remove 2 cards from the bottom of the pyramid, you simply replace them with the cinder blocks waiting on the bench.

not only should carter and kirschke play as well as troy and smith, but they should play better because we are the pittsburgh steelers. :cheer:

Preacher
12-24-2009, 12:30 AM
c'mon preacher, lets be realistic. this arians apology campaign is rediculous.

maybe you wanna look at the bengals 2 appearances in the superbowl vs the mighty montana/walsh led 49ers, before making such claims.

"mediocre at best"???? :toofunny:

holy cow! this is almost as absurd as revs claim that bill walsh couldnt coach this 09 steelers defending championship team to score more than 6 points vs. the browns. :laughing:

you guys are absolutely insane! my only guess to this absurdity is that arians has photos of y'all...

seriously guys... im sure there is a circus hiring out there somewhere. :party:

Tony.. either argue against my arguments or please leave them alone... but deal with them honestly please.

This has nothing to do with Arians. I posted concerning where Lebeau's defenses stood against the rest of the league. Except for the 3 years he took over an already very good defense for the Steelers in the mid 90's, he had a very mediocre defensive career. Care to actually dispute those facts? Here is the website I got it from.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/

Seems the only circus out there is the Troy P. apology campaign.

Preacher
12-24-2009, 12:37 AM
while i totally agree with this analogy 100%, there seems to be a pretty strong faction here that believes that if you remove 2 cards from the bottom of the pyramid, you simply replace them with the cinder blocks waiting on the bench.

not only should carter and kirschke play as well as troy and smith, but they should play better because we are the pittsburgh steelers. :cheer:
Don't be ignorant.

That is a gross mischaracterization of many arguments around here.

Funny thing, I have YET to see you answer why our defense WITH TROY was able to be driven and scored on in teh fourth quarter throughout the playoffs last year. Without his INT, there is a chance we don't even make it to the SB.

Explain to me please, why a defense with Troy and Aaron can completely collapse 3 different times in teh fourth quarter. And yes, I consider 14 points to be a collapse. That is 2 touchdowns in the last quarter for San Diego, one touchdown and driving for a second in the last quarter of Balitmore (Thank goodness for the pic.. which can't be counted on every game) and 14 points in the SB.

Since Troy P. is so invaluable that he is the difference maker, why did Troy allow 14 points each in two playoff games and 7 going on 14 in another?


(For all others reading this... I have no problems with Troy. I think he is the best SS out there. I just don't think he is the soul cause of all our defensive woes unlike Tony. )

Rick5895
12-24-2009, 04:32 AM
Don't be ignorant.

That is a gross mischaracterization of many arguments around here.

Funny thing, I have YET to see you answer why our defense WITH TROY was able to be driven and scored on in teh fourth quarter throughout the playoffs last year. Without his INT, there is a chance we don't even make it to the SB.

Explain to me please, why a defense with Troy and Aaron can completely collapse 3 different times in teh fourth quarter. And yes, I consider 14 points to be a collapse. That is 2 touchdowns in the last quarter for San Diego, one touchdown and driving for a second in the last quarter of Balitmore (Thank goodness for the pic.. which can't be counted on every game) and 14 points in the SB.

Since Troy P. is so invaluable that he is the difference maker, why did Troy allow 14 points each in two playoff games and 7 going on 14 in another?


(For all others reading this... I have no problems with Troy. I think he is the best SS out there. I just don't think he is the soul cause of all our defensive woes unlike Tony. )

I think what your speaking of happens in the NFL from time to time regardless of who is on the field. I had and have the same concerns about last seasons playoff run, but lets put that in some perspective.

The SD game we had a big lead, and I believe we were playing more of a prevent D.
The Baltimore game, offensively we didn't put them away (division rival they know us so it's harder), defensively well the same could be said, as a division rival and the 3rd time we played them, they know what works and doesn't work against us.
In the Super Bowl we dealt with a coaching staff that knew our D and tendencies very well after spending years practicing against it. In addition, the Cards had players on O (Boldin, Fitzgerald) with as much ability as our best D players.
What I have noticed this season is the rest of the DB's seem to be less aggresive with Troy out, seem to have some confusion in coverage, and appear to be mentally tired.
Smith creates havoc on the line because he is so hard to block, usually frees a LB.
IMO the main problem with the D is the amount of PICS we have dropped this season, and that IMO is the difference in performance. Those balls get caught by our guys we don't even discuss the shortcomings of the D,

As for B.A. I thought he called a great game against GB. Had some flow, made great use of play action and took what the D gave him. More often than not he "searches" for plays. I still am not a fan of the guy as an OC, too many empty sets in the red zone and on 3rd and short. But if he can finish out the year the way he did with GB maybe he gets another chance next season unless there is someone that much better out there. :tt04:

cubanstogie
12-24-2009, 08:12 AM
while i totally agree with this analogy 100%, there seems to be a pretty strong faction here that believes that if you remove 2 cards from the bottom of the pyramid, you simply replace them with the cinder blocks waiting on the bench.

not only should carter and kirschke play as well as troy and smith, but they should play better because we are the pittsburgh steelers. :cheer:

As far as I'm concerned Carter was a cinder block last week, he did a great impression of one when Grant ran buy him without even making a move. Actually it was a Jeff Reed imression. There is no doubt Troy takes a load off the rest of D, but there has got to be a better CB out there than Gay, with or without Troy he can't tackle even when he happens to be on his receiver as opposed to the usual 15 yard cushion. Now I not the kind of fan who wants change after 1 bad game but we are talking 6 or 7 in a row.

Preacher
12-24-2009, 03:21 PM
I think what your speaking of happens in the NFL from time to time regardless of who is on the field. I had and have the same concerns about last seasons playoff run, but lets put that in some perspective.

The SD game we had a big lead, and I believe we were playing more of a prevent D.
The Baltimore game, offensively we didn't put them away (division rival they know us so it's harder), defensively well the same could be said, as a division rival and the 3rd time we played them, they know what works and doesn't work against us.
In the Super Bowl we dealt with a coaching staff that knew our D and tendencies very well after spending years practicing against it. In addition, the Cards had players on O (Boldin, Fitzgerald) with as much ability as our best D players.
What I have noticed this season is the rest of the DB's seem to be less aggresive with Troy out, seem to have some confusion in coverage, and appear to be mentally tired.
Smith creates havoc on the line because he is so hard to block, usually frees a LB.
IMO the main problem with the D is the amount of PICS we have dropped this season, and that IMO is the difference in performance. Those balls get caught by our guys we don't even discuss the shortcomings of the D,

As for B.A. I thought he called a great game against GB. Had some flow, made great use of play action and took what the D gave him. More often than not he "searches" for plays. I still am not a fan of the guy as an OC, too many empty sets in the red zone and on 3rd and short. But if he can finish out the year the way he did with GB maybe he gets another chance next season unless there is someone that much better out there. :tt04:

Thing is.. That "Great lead" wouldn't have mattered with a Ben Interception. Then, we would have been fighting for our lives. So it the fact that it did happen is very worrisome. The fact that the exact same thing is happening this year is even more worrisome.

Actually, it points to playcalling. If we allow 14 points in teh fourth quarter last year in a playoff game, and allow the same thing this year, why keep calling the same prevent D. plays when they don't work? Watch the 4th quarter and see how many rushers we send. It is 3 or 4 rushers. That means we are playing a prevent D. That doesn't cause you to question teh play-calling at all? Or to question why we keep having problems in the fourth quarter?

And the fact of the matter is, we shut down the Cards for 3 complete quarters. How did their inside knowledge of our D help them for 45 minutes? It didn't. Did they have an epiphany in the fourth quarter? No. Our defense failed.

We have a SERIOUS problem. Our defense is a fourth quarter failure, starting all the way back in the playoffs of 2008-When Troy was healthy. It needs to be addressed.

El-Gonzo Jackson
12-24-2009, 04:06 PM
As far as I'm concerned Carter was a cinder block last week, he did a great impression of one when Grant ran buy him without even making a move. Actually it was a Jeff Reed imression. There is no doubt Troy takes a load off the rest of D, but there has got to be a better CB out there than Gay, with or without Troy he can't tackle even when he happens to be on his receiver as opposed to the usual 15 yard cushion. Now I not the kind of fan who wants change after 1 bad game but we are talking 6 or 7 in a row.

I agree, Carter looked like the same guy that David Garrard ran around in the wildcard game 2 years ago. He needs to be upgraded and probably will be in the upcoming draft.

As for Gay, I think we have our future replacement for him in the likes of Lewis and Burnett. Problem is they are still rookies who's minds are spinning to get the call right......by next season I expect to see them play better as the game slows down.

Preacher
12-24-2009, 04:17 PM
I agree, Carter looked like the same guy that David Garrard ran around in the wildcard game 2 years ago. He needs to be upgraded and probably will be in the upcoming draft.

As for Gay, I think we have our future replacement for him in the likes of Lewis and Burnett. Problem is they are still rookies who's minds are spinning to get the call right......by next season I expect to see them play better as the game slows down.

I don't know.. do you really think that as a backup... he needs to be upgraded? How many other backups can play both safety positions in the way our safeties play in this system at the level he does?

I know, he blew a tackle and was ran away from last game. But I am also seen him come through the line and blow up run plays... play well at safety, etc. I think we may keep him for another year or two, until we start grooming a safety to take over for Troy when he retires... (Figure about a 3 year grooming for Troy's position and style).

markymarc
12-25-2009, 10:17 AM
I don't know.. do you really think that as a backup... he needs to be upgraded? How many other backups can play both safety positions in the way our safeties play in this system at the level he does?

I know, he blew a tackle and was ran away from last game. But I am also seen him come through the line and blow up run plays... play well at safety, etc. I think we may keep him for another year or two, until we start grooming a safety to take over for Troy when he retires... (Figure about a 3 year grooming for Troy's position and style).

Tyronne Carter absolutely needs to be upgraded. I may be incorrect but I believe TC has started 12 games for the Steelers this season. Out of those 12 games he has only looked good in 1 of them and that was the Denver game. IMO he was totally exposed in the other 11 games.

So what you are saying is that you are very comfortable when Troy goes down again and have TC starting in this secondary. I get the whole backup argument you are saying, but you can't sit there and tell me that TC is the best backup option available after this season. I know you can't replace Troy and I am not asking for that in a backup, but I am asking for a backup that can come in and at least act like he belongs out there. Sorry but I don't see that with TC. And yes TC is part of the secondary problem we have seen all season.

And for the record, I don't see how Ryan Mundy can not play any worse than TC has played this season.

Preacher
12-25-2009, 05:18 PM
Tyronne Carter absolutely needs to be upgraded. I may be incorrect but I believe TC has started 12 games for the Steelers this season. Out of those 12 games he has only looked good in 1 of them and that was the Denver game. IMO he was totally exposed in the other 11 games.

So what you are saying is that you are very comfortable when Troy goes down again and have TC starting in this secondary. I get the whole backup argument you are saying, but you can't sit there and tell me that TC is the best backup option available after this season. I know you can't replace Troy and I am not asking for that in a backup, but I am asking for a backup that can come in and at least act like he belongs out there. Sorry but I don't see that with TC. And yes TC is part of the secondary problem we have seen all season.

And for the record, I don't see how Ryan Mundy can not play any worse than TC has played this season.

Actually, he was our best CB on the field during the Browns game. He played decently ever since he came in for Troy P. Last game, after watching it again, he was exposed on that pass through the middle. However, all in all, I hear year after year how he sucks, and year after year, he still seems to make the team. Why?

don't forget, our SS's don't play like safeties. They are required to play almost like LB's. How many backup safeties can play the position like that?

I'm not saying TC is a great safety or even the best in the league as a backup. Only that he fits our system and the best back up safety FOR US.

Sadly, you can thank Anthony Smith for TC's remaining here. Had AS come of age, he would have taken TC's place a year or two ago, and would be moving tino the starting spot thi year if not last.

markymarc
12-26-2009, 01:19 PM
Actually, he was our best CB on the field during the Browns game. He played decently ever since he came in for Troy P. Last game, after watching it again, he was exposed on that pass through the middle. However, all in all, I hear year after year how he sucks, and year after year, he still seems to make the team. Why?

don't forget, our SS's don't play like safeties. They are required to play almost like LB's. How many backup safeties can play the position like that?

I'm not saying TC is a great safety or even the best in the league as a backup. Only that he fits our system and the best back up safety FOR US.

Sadly, you can thank Anthony Smith for TC's remaining here. Had AS come of age, he would have taken TC's place a year or two ago, and would be moving tino the starting spot thi year if not last.

I totally respect your argument for TC. I don't care for TC and think he has been exposed more the past few years than made good plays overall.

I have never been a TC fan and think it's time for the FO to upgrade our backup SS and FS positions. I don't want a very average safety in TC playing defense for us anymore and I would love nothing more than an upgrade at that position.

While Troy has saved the secondary for years now, each game he's missed outside the Denver game our secondary was totally exposed and that includes Ryan Clark, TC, Ike Taylor and William Gay.

You had to go and bring up the name of Anthony Smith :chuckle: Listen I really had high hopes for Smith when he was drafted, unfortunately he couldn't handle it mentally playing for the Steelers. I just feel the 2010 draft includes a lot of talent at the CB and Safety positions. Hopefully we can draft a safety and then possibly pick 1 up through FA until the rookie is ready to play.

Also, I did want to get your opinion on Ryan Mundy. Do you feel he can start at safety for us or are we just holding out hope like in we did for Anthony Smith?