PDA

View Full Version : 4-3 Defense


SteelCurtain0815
12-31-2009, 01:53 AM
How good could we be in a 4-3 D? I think if we let Hampton walk after the season, that's the way we go, and I like the idea. Take a look.

DT: Aaron Smith, Ziggy Hood

DE: Woodley, Kiesel (Woodley would be moving back to his natural position)

OLB: Harrison, Timmons (Timmons back to his natural 4-3 OLB position, where I believe Tomlin drafted him to be at anyways)

MLB: Fox/Farrior? (Farrior is again quickly and Fox has proven to be a solid player, hopefully we will get another solid MLB in the draft)

I think we would get more pressure with a four man line, because right now folks, our defense is not getting much pressure at all. It would also make it a lot easier on our below average secondary. I really believe this is the way our team is headed.

BlastFurnace
12-31-2009, 02:16 AM
I don't think the personnell we have on defense would allow us to play the 4-3.

Woodley is not big or quick enough to play DE in the 4-3. Harrison is not a 4-3 LB'er either.

I think we maximize the pressure we are going to get in a 3-4 because we put Harrison and Woodley in the right situations. I have a feeling that if we went to a 4-3 that the results would be worse than what we are already seeing on defense.

Let Troy get healthy, get a new CB to replace Gay, and our 3-4 defense will be fine.

SteelCurtain0815
12-31-2009, 02:35 AM
You make some good points about the personnel. However, I disagree with you. Woodley is definitely big enough at 270 lbs, he is bigger than most 4-3 DEs. He is an OLB, so I think he is quick enough to play DE. You may be right about Harrison. He may not be a good enough athlete to play a 4-3 OLB, so what can ya do? Move him to the other DE postion. He blitzes 90% of the time anyways in our 3-4 scheme. That would be a scary tandem of DEs. I think Timmons would really thrive in the 4-3 system as well. Remember, Tomlin spent time with the Buccs where Derrick Brooks thrived in the 4-3 when they won the super bowl. Timmons is just as good of an athlete as Brooks, and that's why Tomlin wanted Timmons.

solardave
12-31-2009, 03:03 AM
You make some good points about the personnel. However, I disagree with you. Woodley is definitely big enough at 270 lbs, he is bigger than most 4-3 DEs. He is an OLB, so I think he is quick enough to play DE. You may be right about Harrison. He may not be a good enough athlete to play a 4-3 OLB, so what can ya do? Move him to the other DE postion. He blitzes 90% of the time anyways in our 3-4 scheme. That would be a scary tandem of DEs. I think Timmons would really thrive in the 4-3 system as well. Remember, Tomlin spent time with the Buccs where Derrick Brooks thrived in the 4-3 when they won the super bowl. Timmons is just as good of an athlete as Brooks, and that's why Tomlin wanted Timmons.

I brought this up a few days back. I think Tomlin is leaning that way. What gives me reservations is the depth factor. Who do we line up behind these guys? We need depth no matter,3-4 or 4-3 we need some beasts. The other thing is Lebeau. I just wonder how he would react to going 4-3. Would he retire? That would be a BIG loss.

Preacher
12-31-2009, 03:26 AM
Every year I hear that we maybe be switching to the 4-3. Why? Because that was what Tomlin developed from?

Look at our drafts. We drafted 2 LB's in the mid 200 pound range and a 300 pound DT that we are moving out to DE.

That is a focused 3-4 defensive draft.

Otherwise, you pick up Woodely OR Timmons, and then another DE that is a bit smaller, or another DT that is another 20 pounds heavier.

steelreserve
12-31-2009, 04:37 AM
Every year I hear that we maybe be switching to the 4-3. Why? Because that was what Tomlin developed from?

Look at our drafts. We drafted 2 LB's in the mid 200 pound range and a 300 pound DT that we are moving out to DE.

That is a focused 3-4 defensive draft.

Otherwise, you pick up Woodely OR Timmons, and then another DE that is a bit smaller, or another DT that is another 20 pounds heavier.

See, that's the problem. They don't really have those. There's like one a year in the draft, and now they all get snapped up in the top 10. Finding one in free agency -- or keeping your own free agent -- costs $10 million a year. The copycatters have made it really hard to draft or sign a 3-4 nose tackle, and that really impacts things for us.

GoSlash27
12-31-2009, 08:14 AM
Finding 1 nose tackle is a heckuva lot easier than finding 2 DTs.
And as Preacher pointed out, we haven't shown any indication of moving that way.

It may appear that our 3-4 hasn't been getting any pressure this year, but the stats don't bear that out. We have 44 sacks on the year. 1st in the AFC and 2nd in the league.
We were forced to bring less heavy blitzes due to the loss of Smith and Polamalu, else we might've been able to set a new team record this year.

KeiselPower99
12-31-2009, 08:40 AM
Woodley was a LB at Michigan until his senior season. It dont matter what the front 7 play the back 4 need to be better.

ljk2442
12-31-2009, 09:54 AM
"Finding 1 nose tackle is a heckuva lot easier than finding 2 DTs.
And as Preacher pointed out, we haven't shown any indication of moving that way."


I totally disagree, how many colleges run a 3-4 defense? And plus we are teaching ziggy hood a new position right now at DE, he was a DT in college.... Every LB, or DT we draft we have to teach them a new position... almost every person on our D has been taught a new postion I.E.... Timmons OLB to ILB, Hood from DT to 3-4 DE, Woodley DE to OLB...

But with that being said, I like the 3-4... we stuff the run yearly with it.. And our Pass D is dominant whenwe get to the QB...

We need to bolster the secondary and we will be fine... AND FIND a new ILB to take over Farrior

GoSlash27
12-31-2009, 10:08 AM
I totally disagree, how many colleges run a 3-4 defense?
And how many of those college 4-3 linemen are big enough to play that position in the NFL?
That's *why* the 3-4 is so much easier to scout/ maintain. The draft is full of guys that are too small for the 4-3, but perfect for the 3-4. And the learning curve is a big factor no matter what. LeBeau's defense is so intricate that everybody has to re-learn how to play their position regardless of their prior experience.

Psyychoward86
12-31-2009, 10:10 AM
We have all the wrong personnel. Keisel is way too slow to be a DE in a 4-3 defense. We wouldnt be able to utilize Harrison's pass rushing ability.


it's quite possible that we switch to a 4-3 in the near future though, our D-line coach wants to retire soon.

Curtain_of_Steel
12-31-2009, 10:51 AM
Wow based on the first post, Hampton is the only player in the world that can play NT? Without him the 3-4 is dead? How the hell will we survive.

They will find another cork for the bottle, he isn't this defenses first NT to leave or not be resigned is he?

Lebeau will do just fine next year with him at a fair price, or without him and his replacement comes much cheaper.

fansince'76
12-31-2009, 11:13 AM
I think we would get more pressure with a four man line, because right now folks, our defense is not getting much pressure at all.

Umm, we're second in the league in sacks.

Psyychoward86
12-31-2009, 11:16 AM
Wow based on the first post, Hampton is the only player in the world that can play NT? Without him the 3-4 is dead? How the hell will we survive.

They will find another cork for the bottle, he isn't this defenses first NT to leave or not be resigned is he?

Lebeau will do just fine next year with him at a fair price, or without him and his replacement comes much cheaper.

we thought that about Willie Gay replacing Mcfadden, look what happened. Chris Hoke can fill in great for Hampton, but if Hoke gets hurt we're f'ed. You have to think about depth too u know

GoSlash27
12-31-2009, 11:17 AM
Umm, we're second in the league in sacks.
As I pointed out up-stream.
Imagine what we could've done this year if we were actually *trying* to get sacks! :chuckle:

fansince'76
12-31-2009, 11:19 AM
As I pointed out up-stream.

Sorry - I didn't check the rest of the posts thoroughly enough. :doh:

Psyychoward86
12-31-2009, 11:27 AM
Umm, we're second in the league in sacks.

says a lot about our lack of production from the 2ndary :doh:

supa_fly_steeler
12-31-2009, 11:29 AM
i like how people talk shit as if if he knows everything lol

lol like fansince'76 said were near top in sacks lol.

keep the stupid bollocks stats that are incorrect coming it's fun to read.

GoSlash27
12-31-2009, 11:38 AM
Psyycho,
says a lot about our lack of production from the 2ndary
In part. It also says something about how much Aaron Smith contributed to our run stuff.
It's all a delicate balance...

Steelersfan4life0655
12-31-2009, 11:42 AM
absolutely not!! first off, we dont have the personel for a 4-3 defense! secondly, usually 4-3 players want tons more money! third, its hard to find the right players for the defense! stick to what we are used to and let our players heal back up and we should be a solid d again!!:tt02:

Fire Haley
12-31-2009, 11:50 AM
It's not the scheme.

To use a hockey term - we are a one-line team. We win with our first teamers, but have nothing behind them, if they get hurt - we are screwed.

Rick5895
12-31-2009, 11:55 AM
The 4-3 is very limiting in what you can do with pressure. It is, IMO , a lot easier to run on a 4-3 unless the DT are big and quick. Most DE's in a 4-3 scheme are only looking for the sack. I don't beleive this team is going to the 4-3, wrong personall. Keisel and Smith are perfect 3-4 ends, but Smith may be a good DT in a 4-3 , I beleive kiesel would struggle At DE. If we went that way, we would have to find an OLB, I beleive our ends would be Harrison (was a college DE) and Woodley.

Psyychoward86
12-31-2009, 11:59 AM
i like how people talk shit as if if he knows everything lol

lol like fansince'76 said were near top in sacks lol.

keep the stupid bollocks stats that are incorrect coming it's fun to read.

Um, we really are 2nd in the league with 44 sacks, 1 sack behind the vikings. Consistent pressure is the problem in my opinion, that and the lack of production from the 2ndary. Of course, losing Aaron Smith and Troy hurts a bunch too.

GoSlash27
12-31-2009, 12:09 PM
^ this. The 3rd down "Not worth a Plugged Nickel" package has been a disaster for us.

I know that Coach Dad has forgotten more about football than I will ever know, but...C'mon!
Keep the 3-4 and bring a blitz at least once in a while!

Henne is a turnover factory under pressure...

Psyychoward86
12-31-2009, 12:15 PM
^ this. The 3rd down "Not worth a Plugged Nickel" package has been a disaster for us.

I know that Coach Dad has forgotten more about football than I will ever know, but...C'mon!
Keep the 3-4 and bring a blitz at least once in a while!

Henne is a turnover factory under pressure...

gotta agree here. We're 2nd in the league in sacks, but our pressure has been generally inconsistent. Bring the rain on henne, and it's game over for the dolphins

SteelCurtain0815
12-31-2009, 12:55 PM
IMO,we do have the personnel, but maybe not the depth to run a 4-3. Whoever said that it's easier to find 1 NT than it is to find 2 DTs is completely wrong. With so many teams switching to the 3-4 it's very rare to find a beast NT. Kiesel may be too slow to play DE, so like I said before, move Harrison to the other DE position. I think with Woodley, Ziggy, Smith, and Harrison, we would get a lot of pressure without blitzing, thus helping our weak secondary. I do not think it would make our run D worse either, like many of you think. Our defense would become much faster, while still keeping run stuffers, with guys like Harrison and Smith on the d-line. Farrior also played in a 4-3 for the Jets, where he lead the league in tackles before he came to Pitt.

BlockMonsta
12-31-2009, 01:06 PM
Not sure why you guys think that 4-3 D-line is supposed to be bigger, it's a 3-4 who has the bigger linemen\linebackers. 4-3 has smaller, faster LB's...for the most part.

supa_fly_steeler
12-31-2009, 01:15 PM
Um, we really are 2nd in the league with 44 sacks, 1 sack behind the vikings. Consistent pressure is the problem in my opinion, that and the lack of production from the 2ndary. Of course, losing Aaron Smith and Troy hurts a bunch too.

nnooooooooooo i was saying fansince76 was correct the guy who write that we had no pass rush was the idiot.

Pi Kapp Steeler
12-31-2009, 01:50 PM
Troy getting injured thjis season exploited how weak our secondary really is. And i hate to say it IKE taylor is/was always over rated. Deshea has been to old and slow for the past 2 years, he just seemed to make that one big play for the front office keep him around.(ala Tony Romo int to the house) .

Our front 7 tho has been doin there job tho. Aside from Ziggy, our Dline is ageing . We need to draft a whole new secondary or maybe dip our hands in free agency....

For example i got into an agruement with some ignorant Giant fan who said " Well steelers just suck, look at the ravens the lost Ed Reed and they are still competing" i rebutted "Ya, and ed reed has Tom Zibakowski as his back up, who is a solid young saftey to be 2nd string. We dont have that. Of course the Giants fan didnt know who Zibakoski was so i dismissed the arguement all together.

But what I am trying to say is that Clark got away with his head hunting hard hits cause he had the insurance that Troy was there if he missed. When troy got hurt and Carter came in Clark had to play more coverage, which obviosly he is not really good at. Also IMO Carter is the same as Clark always looking for the big hit rather then playing the ball.

Sorry if im rambling just a topic that has irrated me for awhile.

Conclusion

Ike- Only good at bumping the receiver for 5 yards, cant catch the ball for sh**
DeShea- To old, slow, a mismatch on the field.
Gay- Hasn't done really anything special, been playing below avg for NFL standards
Burnett- Has to redeem himself after the Raider game, him and Mundy theres still hope.
Clark- Head hunter always looking for the big hit , horrible in recgonizing plays
Carter- Same problem as Clark....

7willBheaven
12-31-2009, 01:53 PM
I too like the 3-4 for the most part. But hey why not just every so often line up 4-3 to throw other O's off, ya know. Just outta the blue do something similar to the original posters idea as far as personal....it'd be a new ripple in LeBeau's system. Even not having "official" 4-3 players/etc/etc, to do it just a couple times a game or something i think they can get away with it. Just a thought.

SteelCurtain0815
12-31-2009, 03:42 PM
I too like the 3-4 for the most part. But hey why not just every so often line up 4-3 to throw other O's off, ya know. Just outta the blue do something similar to the original posters idea as far as personal....it'd be a new ripple in LeBeau's system. Even not having "official" 4-3 players/etc/etc, to do it just a couple times a game or something i think they can get away with it. Just a thought.

I agree with you there. I think a 3-4, 4-3, hybrid defense could work very well for the guys we have. I truly think if Hampton isn't resigned...that we will turn into a 4-3 team.

supa_fly_steeler
12-31-2009, 03:46 PM
we wont change to a hybrid or 4-3 until lebeau's gone, tomlin might even keep to the 3-4 type, when harrison retires or takes the backup role he move timmons to outside and place say micah johnson/spikes/mcclain at middle.

SteelCurtain0815
12-31-2009, 03:50 PM
Timmons won't be able to play OLB in a 3-4 again. He got man handled when he did play there, because he isn't very big and doesn't play very physical. Timmons will stay in the middle in a 3-4 and would be moved to ROLB in a 4-3 to utilize his athletic ability. Just my opinion.

supa_fly_steeler
12-31-2009, 11:14 PM
Timmons won't be able to play OLB in a 3-4 again. He got man handled when he did play there, because he isn't very big and doesn't play very physical. Timmons will stay in the middle in a 3-4 and would be moved to ROLB in a 4-3 to utilize his athletic ability. Just my opinion.

omg what the hell, being an outside linebacker is the same thing... he doesn't need the fing strength he has ---> ACCELERATION to elude the fat lineman and then use SPEED to get to the quarterback. The only difference is he is more suited to the 3-4 because they don't know who the extra blitzer is because he can drop back to coverage, so he could fool the lineman then take advantage with their speed.

ricksteelers55
01-01-2010, 12:13 AM
Every year I hear that we maybe be switching to the 4-3. Why? Because that was what Tomlin developed from?

Look at our drafts. We drafted 2 LB's in the mid 200 pound range and a 300 pound DT that we are moving out to DE.

That is a focused 3-4 defensive draft.

Otherwise, you pick up Woodely OR Timmons, and then another DE that is a bit smaller, or another DT that is another 20 pounds heavier.

yup exactly,not to mention that we are already extremely thin at DL depth....I dont think we could afford moving to 4-3.

also if we cant re-sign big snack i wish we draft that big NT from Bama,Cody and ride Hoke for a year or 2 til Cody is ready.

if we're able to re-sign casey then i say let's draft some DB's

AllD
01-01-2010, 07:39 AM
We might have one more season with Aaron Smith before he turns into a Marvel Smith.

The Lakelander
01-01-2010, 08:00 AM
Hamp has had a solid year ... who's to say we don't resign him?

... or franchise him?

If we do ... we are a LB, a CB, and a Safety away from being pretty good on defense again next year.

Assuming that CB is to be Keenan Lewis or Joe Burnett, we may need only an ILB and a Safety to get this 3-4 back to form ...

solardave
01-01-2010, 12:42 PM
Woodley was a LB at Michigan until his senior season. It dont matter what the front 7 play the back 4 need to be better.

You're right but we do need depth on the D-line. We realy are not in very good shape depth wise on the front. And these guys are getting long in the tooth. Age = more injuries and that spells trouble.

SteelCurtain0815
01-01-2010, 06:59 PM
omg what the hell, being an outside linebacker is the same thing... he doesn't need the fing strength he has ---> ACCELERATION to elude the fat lineman and then use SPEED to get to the quarterback. The only difference is he is more suited to the 3-4 because they don't know who the extra blitzer is because he can drop back to coverage, so he could fool the lineman then take advantage with their speed.

Playing OLB in a 4-3 and a 3-4 are completely different. All 3-4 OLBs in the NFL are big, physical players who are pretty much DEs playing OLB. Timmons is not got going to bull rush a T like Harrison and Woodley. You obviously don't know much about football. Timmons is not suited for a 3-4 OLB.

SteelCurtain0815
01-04-2010, 12:08 AM
Bump

markymarc
01-04-2010, 01:31 PM
I don't see the 4-3 defense here in Pittsburgh. It may happen someday, but IMO we don't have the personnel to run it right now.

SteelCurtain0815
01-04-2010, 01:38 PM
I respect your opinion, but if you read any of my other posts on this topic you would realize that we do have the personnel to run the 4-3. IDK if it would be better than the 3-4 or not, but it's scary to think about having Woodley and Harrison at DE, with Ziggy and Smith at DT. I think we could create a lot of pressure with those 4.