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Florida_Steelers_Fan
01-04-2010, 12:11 AM
I mean this with no disrespect whatsoever...

...but has Dick LeBeau been put on a plateau that makes him immune to criticism? The failure of this team is not their offense, but their defense.

Funny, but I'm a supporter of Bruce Arians...I believe this offensive line is horrible, probably the worst this team has had in years. Arians has taken the hand he's been dealt, realizing this is NOT a power-running team, and is utilizing the weapons he has. We have a 4,000 yd. passer, a 1,000 yd. rusher, and 2 1,000 yd. receivers - a FIRST in team history. Yet, Arians gets blasted. This is totally unfair.

However, I have witnessed this defense get torched. I haven't read a single article calling for Dick LeBeau's head. I love the guy, but this is his defense. I realize that Polamalu & Smith are injured and the loss of McFadden hurts more than many want to admit... but those losses (in my eyes) are the equivalent of putting a penny offensive line in front of a 100 million dollar quarterback.

I am not a fan of bashing anyone's job... Seven losses this year were tough to swallow because none of them were more than a touchdown, and surprisingly it was the Browns who handed the Steelers their worst defeat. But watching this defense go into melt-down mode was very hard to witness. The problem on this team is not their offense...it's their defense. Who's accountable for that?

pepsyman1
01-04-2010, 12:22 AM
I mean this with no disrespect whatsoever...

...but has Dick LeBeau been put on a plateau that makes him immune to criticism? The failure of this team is not their offense, but their defense.

Funny, but I'm a supporter of Bruce Arians...I believe this offensive line is horrible, probably the worst this team has had in years. Arians has taken the hand he's been dealt, realizing this is NOT a power-running team, and is utilizing the weapons he has. We have a 4,000 yd. passer, a 1,000 yd. rusher, and 2 1,000 yd. receivers - a FIRST in team history. Yet, Arians gets blasted. This is totally unfair.

However, I have witnessed this defense get torched. I haven't read a single article calling for Dick LeBeau's head. I love the guy, but this is his defense. I realize that Polamalu & Smith are injured and the loss of McFadden hurts more than many want to admit... but those losses (in my eyes) are the equivalent of putting a penny offensive line in front of a 100 million dollar quarterback.

I am not a fan of bashing anyone's job... Seven losses this year were tough to swallow because none of them were more than a touchdown, and surprisingly it was the Browns who handed the Steelers their worst defeat. But watching this defense go into melt-down mode was very hard to witness. The problem on this team is not their offense...it's their defense. Who's accountable for that?

I'm with you 100%. I love Dick Lebeau and the defenses he's orchestrated here over the years, but it seemed like he didn't make any effective adjustments to the D once we lost Aaron and Troy. I would have assumed with Lebeau's wealth of defensive knowledge, that he would have gone back to the creative drawing board and come up with some stuff that would work for the people we DID have on the field...We didn't give up huge yardage most of the time, but just about EVERY 4th quarter we were giving up significant points. (Miami was the only team to give up more in the 4th quarter this year) It looked like no adjustments were made to change that.

tyler289
01-04-2010, 12:25 AM
Yes, he's sacred, and I believe he gets to leave on his terms. It's not his fault the front office failed to provide him with any sort of depth. His defense is tried and tested and almost always near the top of the league, but this year he lost his best secondary player and best defensive lineman. The way the defense played at the end of the year didn't have anything to do with Labeau or his scheme; rather, it was lack of depth at key positions and just some old age creeping in (especially on Farrior).

Just my opinion.

MACH1
01-04-2010, 12:26 AM
Arians has taken the hand he's been dealt, realizing this is NOT a power-running team, and is utilizing the weapons he has. We have a 4,000 yd. passer, a 1,000 yd. rusher, and 2 1,000 yd. receivers - a FIRST in team history. Yet, Arians gets blasted. This is totally unfair.


Don't forget 30th in redzone scorining.

There's plenty of blame to go around for everybody. Special teams, offense and defense.

GodofGridiron
01-04-2010, 12:31 AM
Look at LeBeau's body of work. Look at the respect he garners from opposing Offensive coordinators. Have a segment done on you a few times by ESPN NFL Countdown and that sells me on LeBeau. LeBeaus struggle this year is with personnel/Injuries. When hes got his full array of players he can wreck havoc on a game. Arians doesnt generate any respect from opposing D Coordinators. He just doesnt put his stamp on a game or make you guess whats comin.

madtowndrunkard
01-04-2010, 12:55 AM
I mean this with no disrespect whatsoever...

...but has Dick LeBeau been put on a plateau that makes him immune to criticism? The failure of this team is not their offense, but their defense.

Funny, but I'm a supporter of Bruce Arians...I believe this offensive line is horrible, probably the worst this team has had in years. Arians has taken the hand he's been dealt, realizing this is NOT a power-running team, and is utilizing the weapons he has. We have a 4,000 yd. passer, a 1,000 yd. rusher, and 2 1,000 yd. receivers - a FIRST in team history. Yet, Arians gets blasted. This is totally unfair.

However, I have witnessed this defense get torched. I haven't read a single article calling for Dick LeBeau's head. I love the guy, but this is his defense. I realize that Polamalu & Smith are injured and the loss of McFadden hurts more than many want to admit... but those losses (in my eyes) are the equivalent of putting a penny offensive line in front of a 100 million dollar quarterback.

I am not a fan of bashing anyone's job... Seven losses this year were tough to swallow because none of them were more than a touchdown, and surprisingly it was the Browns who handed the Steelers their worst defeat. But watching this defense go into melt-down mode was very hard to witness. The problem on this team is not their offense...it's their defense. Who's accountable for that?


I think you have it back wards....

LeBeau was dealing with the hand he was dealt. Losing Troy, Smith, and Foote proved to be devastating. Our FO just cut Foote....assuming Timmons was every bit as good.....well Timmons is fast but he cant stuff the run at all. He struggles in coverage and often hurt his teammates by not taking on blockers. Farrior looked to struggle in pass coverage...and the FO made Gay our starting corner with no plan B. Sounds to me like Dick Leabau was handed the piece of shit...Not Arians.

Arians problem was he was given a Porche and he quickly drove it 150MPH w/ his foot to the floor. Arians play calling often put us in bad positions to make mistakes...and plenty of mistakes were made. We shot our selves in the foot offensively often. You apparently forgot about the 4 TDs ran back off Offensive turnovers? Arians struggled to score points even though he was given a boat load of talent. Sure we racked up a ton of yards.....Ben had a career year....our WRs had career years....but you know what....we were average at scoring points.

Is our O-line good? No...but they are not horrible either. Put your QB in the shot gun all game long and become one dimensional .....how well would any O-line protect their QB under those circumstances? Only the best of O-lines could handle such demands. Arians did not use the talent he was given like it should have been.

pepsyman1
01-04-2010, 12:57 AM
Look at LeBeau's body of work. Look at the respect he garners from opposing Offensive coordinators. Have a segment done on you a few times by ESPN NFL Countdown and that sells me on LeBeau. LeBeaus struggle this year is with personnel/Injuries. When hes got his full array of players he can wreck havoc on a game. Arians doesnt generate any respect from opposing D Coordinators. He just doesnt put his stamp on a game or make you guess whats comin.

100% right with that assessment. I think the majority of the Steelers offensive success this year can be laid right on Ben's shoulders. He's THAT good. I don't think Arian's system is all that good. If we take another QB that doesn't have the huge skill set that Ben has, I think we would have struggled to do anything offensively this year. Conversely, look at New England last year with Matt CasselL. I don't think he's anything special (didn't do anything impressive in KC this year), but within the Patriots system last year they still did well offensively. They obviously weren't as strong as they were with Brady, but they still managed to score over 400 pts (almost 50 more than we did this year) with basically a nobody at QB. THAT"S an OC putting a strong system together.

Aussie_steeler
01-04-2010, 01:01 AM
If we are going to hold people accountable for the performance of the secondary maybe a little attention needs to be paid to these facts.

Coaching career -- College
Tomlin's coaching career began in 1995 as the wide receiver coach at Virginia Military Institute under current West Virginia University head coach Bill Stewart. He spent the 1996 season as a graduate assistant at the University of Memphis, where he worked with the defensive backs and special teams.

Following a brief stint on the University of Tennessee at Martin's coaching staff, Tomlin was hired by Arkansas State University in 1997 to coach its defensive backs. Tomlin stayed there for two seasons, before being hired as defensive backs coach by the University of Cincinnati.

National Football League - Assistant Coach
Tomlin was hired as the defensive backs coach for the Tampa Bay Buccaneers in 2001, where he first learned the Tampa 2 defense that he would use in later coaching jobs.

In 2002 and 2005, the Buccaneers led the NFL in total defense (fewest yards allowed per game)—during Tomlin's tenure, the defense never ranked worse than sixth overall. When the Buccaneers won Super Bowl XXXVII in January 2003, the team recorded five interceptions, three of which were returned for touchdowns.

Tomlin was selected by Vikings' head coach Brad Childress to be his defensive coordinator in 2006.Two of the players on the Vikings were older than Tomlin, and Tomlin had been a teammate of Vikings' safety Darren Sharper at William and Mary. The 2006 Vikings finished with the NFL's eighth-best overall defense, but had the unusual distinction of finishing as the top-ranked defense against the run, and the worst-ranked defense against the pass.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Tomlin


If we are going to ask questions of LeBeau it is only fair to ask the same questions, particularly of a defensive back guru, in Mike Tomlin

I think we paid the price this year for a distinct lack of talent, key injuries and loss of a Free agent in the secondary.

Maybe also we need to have one distinct defensive philosophy shared by our coaches. The LeBeau zone blitz preference and Tomlins preference for Tampa 2 must create a slight issue somewhere? I dont know enough about defences but are these two guys on the same page when coaching players ????

I would appreciate feedback on this one.

SteelC7
01-04-2010, 02:17 AM
everybody needs to accept the blame, but yes i agree with u, lebeau doesnt get criticism because of his past accomplishments, including last years record setting defense

Preacher
01-04-2010, 02:28 AM
If we are going to hold people accountable for the performance of the secondary maybe a little attention needs to be paid to these facts.



If we are going to ask questions of LeBeau it is only fair to ask the same questions, particularly of a defensive back guru, in Mike Tomlin

I think we paid the price this year for a distinct lack of talent, key injuries and loss of a Free agent in the secondary.

Maybe also we need to have one distinct defensive philosophy shared by our coaches. The LeBeau zone blitz preference and Tomlins preference for Tampa 2 must create a slight issue somewhere? I dont know enough about defences but are these two guys on the same page when coaching players ????

I would appreciate feedback on this one.

Well, last year they a combined defense, and clamped down on teams for most of the year. Then, they started getting lit up at the end, during the fourth quarter.

This is a league of professionals, where 1/8ths of a second is the difference from hero to goat. It is also a league of copycats and copious amounts of video tape (legal, sir belicheat).

So IMO, OC's got a hold of a lot of tape with our offense from last year... figured out ways to create seams, and started exploiting those seams. Then, with Troy and Aaron out, those seams grew larger and a bit easier to exploit.

So having Troy and Aaron back next year will help, but LeBeau has to figure out how to close up the seams. I have no doubt he will.

Steeldude
01-04-2010, 04:13 AM
losing...Foote proved to be devastating

huh? the NFL's 2009-10 most burned LB in pass defense was missed? :doh:

WH
01-04-2010, 04:15 AM
huh? the NFL's 2009-10 most burned LB in pass defense was missed? :doh:

I think he was missed more in the run game.

steeltheone
01-04-2010, 04:42 AM
You guys kill me. All we need is another 30 year old player on this d. Foote was never better than average.

Fire Haley
01-04-2010, 04:47 AM
When your defense is crapping it's pants trying to tame Tyler Thigpen, you got problems.

supa_fly_steeler
01-04-2010, 05:14 AM
Don't forget 30th in redzone scorining.

There's plenty of blame to go around for everybody. Special teams, offense and defense.

Lol, simply that's disgraceful, what are the two teams ahead of us, that is a putrid stat no offensive co-ordinator wants.

Vincent
01-04-2010, 06:05 AM
I think you have it back wards....

LeBeau was dealing with the hand he was dealt. Losing Troy, Smith, and Foote proved to be devastating. Our FO just cut Foote....assuming Timmons was every bit as good.....well Timmons is fast but he cant stuff the run at all. He struggles in coverage and often hurt his teammates by not taking on blockers. Farrior looked to struggle in pass coverage...and the FO made Gay our starting corner with no plan B. Sounds to me like Dick Leabau was handed the piece of shit...Not Arians.

Arians problem was he was given a Porche and he quickly drove it 150MPH w/ his foot to the floor. Arians play calling often put us in bad positions to make mistakes...and plenty of mistakes were made. We shot our selves in the foot offensively often. You apparently forgot about the 4 TDs ran back off Offensive turnovers? Arians struggled to score points even though he was given a boat load of talent. Sure we racked up a ton of yards.....Ben had a career year....our WRs had career years....but you know what....we were average at scoring points.

Is our O-line good? No...but they are not horrible either. Put your QB in the shot gun all game long and become one dimensional .....how well would any O-line protect their QB under those circumstances? Only the best of O-lines could handle such demands. Arians did not use the talent he was given like it should have been.

Day-hum MTD!! You nailed it again.

A 4K yd QB, 2 1K yd receivers (both SB MVPs, I might add), Heath, Mendy, FWP, and Wallace, and all you can hang on the stains is 6 points? 30th in the Red Zone? "Play offs??!! Are you kidding me? Play offs??!!".

We saw it in 07. Aaron Smith is THAT important to the defense. Troy is invaluable. Take them both out of the equation and you don't have the Steelers' 08 #1 defense that kept us in every game and won several. And even at that, LeBeau's 09 defense finished #4.

Troy made a statement some time ago that captures the "problem" with the Steelers. I'll try to quote as best as my old memory will allow - "We're a high impact defense. We can't be on the field for long periods". Where we have been successful in the past, we have had long drives that kept the D off the field. Then they came out and pounced. That was illustrated best in that 3rd Q against the Bolts last year where we had the ball all but 17 seconds and then picked their lone play.

Cowher harnessed the formula with his übergawdy 111-1 record with a 10 pt lead. "Yebbit Cowher blah, blah, blah.". That record speaks for itself. We are now the polar opposite of those teams.

Injuries aside, IMHO, failure on the part of the 09 D is not entirely on the D. They're not built for track meets. They have been resoundingly successful under LeBeau's watch. I place most of the ownership of the "problem" squarely where it belongs - the young man that refuses to fix his FUBAR offense.

Rick5895
01-04-2010, 06:26 AM
Some facts and figures for you all
the D ranked 5th this season (not 4th) 3rd against the rush 16 vs the pass. We were 12 in scoring D, and 14 in TD's allowed. The TD allowed is misleading, we had 4 turnovers and 4 kr Tds' take those away and we tie for 4 in td's against.
The pass D was terrible in yards allowed, but our defense allowed less than 2 TD's per game.

Our offense had a final ranking of 7. (th passing and 19th rushing, that is awful. With this high powered O we were 12th in scoring and 14th in TD's scored (I didn't take into account TD's scored by our D).
This was a bizarre year to say the least, IMO Lebeau gets some slack and IMO he is "sacred"
More than anything the lack of turnovers forced hurt us, dropping pics and giving teams second chances in the NFL is akin to "suicide"
With a healthy D next season I am sure we go no worse than 12-4, but I would expect 13-3 or 14-2. I don't beleive 1 sub par season by Steelers standards defensively should warrant the removing of the best DC in NFL history.
IMHO

Rick5895
01-04-2010, 06:27 AM
that would be 9th passing O

HometownGal
01-04-2010, 07:07 AM
I don't beleive 1 sub par season by Steelers standards defensively should warrant the removing of the best DC in NFL history.
IMHO

Again - if the Steelers D cannot adjust to one or two of their starters being out for almost the entire season, then there are bigger problems which "start at the top" as many of you like to say. If we were talking about one or two "bad games" by this D, I could go along with the thinking around here, but the facts support the theory that this D simply could not hold leads that the O gave them. The O's job is to put points on the board, which they did (in all but 2 games). The D's job is to prevent the opponent from putting points on the board, which they did not.

Stats schmats. Stats don't win football games - perservearance does and this D lacked just that this season.

Am I calling for Lebeau's firing? Absolutely not. But - like others around here - I'm not going to give him a free pass for the horrific play of his unit this season which cost us the AFCN title and most likely, a first round bye. Arians O, imho, pretty much did what was asked of them this season. Lebeau's D did not and I don't need pretty little stats to support that fact.

GodofGridiron
01-04-2010, 07:20 AM
Again - if the Steelers D cannot adjust to one or two of their starters being out for almost the entire season, then there are bigger problems which "start at the top" as many of you like to say. If we were talking about one or two "bad games" by this D, I could go along with the thinking around here, but the facts support the theory that this D simply could not hold leads that the O gave them. The O's job is to put points on the board, which they did (in all but 2 games). The D's job is to prevent the opponent from putting points on the board, which they did not.

Stats schmats. Stats don't win football games - perservearance does and this D lacked just that this season.

Am I calling for Lebeau's firing? Absolutely not. But - like others around here - I'm not going to give him a free pass for the horrific play of his unit this season which cost us the AFCN title and most likely, a first round bye. Arians O, imho, pretty much did what was asked of them this season. Lebeau's D did not and I don't need pretty little stats to support that fact.


You just dont get it do you ?

That bolded part lets me know you havent a clue when it comes to personnel who are key cogs in the machine and play a vital role in what it is we love to do. Take an MJ from the Bulls starting lineup what do you have ? Take Kobe or LeBron from their respective lineups from injury.....Troys presence on the field offers LeBeau the opportunity to execute exotic schemes. Our role players can be more aggressive in coverage know Troy can account for a lot which makes them appear to perform better and some times they do. Same thing with Aaron but to a lesser degree. You make it seem like if a key figure in your scheme goes down u can just plug someone in, make a few tweeks and give a rah rah speech and all will be fine. It dont work that way...especially for a season....couple of games perhaps.

You have skewed view of chemistry and personnel fit with respect to adjustments. Some talent u cant account for when its lost.

HometownGal
01-04-2010, 07:30 AM
You just dont get it do you ?

That bolded part lets me know you havent a clue when it comes to personnel who are key cogs in the machine and play a vital role in what it is we love to do. Take an MJ from the Bulls starting lineup what do you have ? Take Kobe or LeBron from their respective lineups from injury.....Troys presence on the field offers LeBeau the opportunity to execute exotic schemes. Our role players can be more aggressive in coverage know Troy can account for a lot which makes them appear to perform better and some times they do. Same thing with Aaron but to a lesser degree. You make it seem like if a key figure in your scheme goes down u can just plug someone in, make a few tweeks and give a rah rah speech and all will be fine. It dont work that way...especially for a season....couple of games perhaps.

You have skewed view of chemistry and personnel fit with respect to adjustments. Some talent u cant account for when its lost.

Look pal - if you don't knock it the hell off with your blatant ignorance and condescending attitude, you're going to be shown the door. I've had enough of it.

I am entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours. Doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I view the problems on this team in one light - you view them in a different light and that's A-OK. However - I am NOT going to be talked down to and made to look like some bubbleheaded female who wouldn't know a football if it hit her in the head when that is definitely not the case. I'm sick to death of being followed around by you and your snarky little remarks.

TackleMeBen
01-04-2010, 07:37 AM
every team knows that a key player can get hurt at any given time. with that being said, they should also have a plan in place for that. so for instance, when troy went down, we needed a better back up to him. one that can fill in and do a good job. i know that you cant just pick up a caliber player like troy off the street, but it looks like we didnt have much depth behind troy. the coaching staff should know that with the way troy plays he is likely to be injured.

there is enough blame to go around for the whole team. its not just the D faults.. yes, they couldnt hold onto leads that the O gave them, but the O couldnt just march down the field and settle for FGs either. they needed to punch the ball in several times and couldnt. ST, except for logan being the bright spot, they sucked too.

Texasteel
01-04-2010, 08:04 AM
You just dont get it do you ?

That bolded part lets me know you havent a clue when it comes to personnel who are key cogs in the machine and play a vital role in what it is we love to do. Take an MJ from the Bulls starting lineup what do you have ? Take Kobe or LeBron from their respective lineups from injury.....Troys presence on the field offers LeBeau the opportunity to execute exotic schemes. Our role players can be more aggressive in coverage know Troy can account for a lot which makes them appear to perform better and some times they do. Same thing with Aaron but to a lesser degree. You make it seem like if a key figure in your scheme goes down u can just plug someone in, make a few tweeks and give a rah rah speech and all will be fine. It dont work that way...especially for a season....couple of games perhaps.

You have skewed view of chemistry and personnel fit with respect to adjustments. Some talent u cant account for when its lost.


LaBeau did have major injuries to work around, but if this defense went from the #1 one defense to what we have been watching by the loss of 2 player, how ever important they were, the defense is in more trouble than I thought. It is his job to make adjustments for the conditions and he couldn't find a way to do it. I still have faith in the old man and believe if he choses to come back next year will do a good job with our defense, but make no mistake about it, and I think he would tell you the same thing, he is just as responsible for what happens defensively as BA is offensively.

WH
01-04-2010, 08:23 AM
GodofGridiron....the Bulls were so good that you could take Jordan out and they would still win.

Steeldude
01-04-2010, 09:58 AM
I think he was missed more in the run game.

i don't miss him being run over or waiting for ball carriers to come to him

WH
01-04-2010, 10:02 AM
i don't miss him being run over or waiting for ball carriers to come to him

I never said he was good at it....just he's missed more in the run game than in the passing game.

CargoJon
01-04-2010, 10:12 AM
I think LeBeau gets too conservative when we have a lead....even with full personnel in the lineup.

Let's not forget we sat on a lead last year in the Super Bowl and damned near lost it.

D LeB is great, but he needs to be more aggressive when we have a medium sized lead of 10-19 points...instead of going for the kill shot he tends to play not to lose....

Arians still bites ass.

BlastFurnace
01-04-2010, 10:42 AM
Dick isn't a sacred cow, but to be fair, from last year's defense he lost Foote, BMAC, Troy, and Aaron Smith. He was given Gay, Carter, a first year starter in Timmons, and a guy who should retire (Kirshcke) to replace them.

Also, aging veterans like Farrior (who was always beaten like a drum in coverage), Hampton (Pro Bowl or not, he wasn't that great this season), and Deshea...and this spells trouble as well.

I want LeBeau back, but I don't want some of the players back.

madtowndrunkard
01-04-2010, 10:43 AM
You guys kill me. All we need is another 30 year old player on this d. Foote was never better than average.


You may be correct about that......but the fact remains Foote was far superior at stuffing the run then Timmons. Timmons has been horrible stopping the run at the point of attack. He often hurts his teammates by not taking on blockers or hitting the correct hole. Im sure thats the reason we saw Farrior's play decline as well.

Foote's issues this year had more to do with how the Lions used him.


Lets not forget the importance of Aaron Smith either. If Im the FO I'd be desperate to find his replacement...Smith is not getting any younger and he clearly is the back bone of our D-line. Maybe Hood is that guy? we'll wait and see.

madtowndrunkard
01-04-2010, 11:00 AM
Again - if the Steelers D cannot adjust to one or two of their starters being out for almost the entire season, then there are bigger problems which "start at the top" as many of you like to say. If we were talking about one or two "bad games" by this D, I could go along with the thinking around here, but the facts support the theory that this D simply could not hold leads that the O gave them. The O's job is to put points on the board, which they did (in all but 2 games). The D's job is to prevent the opponent from putting points on the board, which they did not.

Stats schmats. Stats don't win football games - perservearance does and this D lacked just that this season.

Am I calling for Lebeau's firing? Absolutely not. But - like others around here - I'm not going to give him a free pass for the horrific play of his unit this season which cost us the AFCN title and most likely, a first round bye. Arians O, imho, pretty much did what was asked of them this season. Lebeau's D did not and I don't need pretty little stats to support that fact.


Sorry but that just isn't accurate.

Our offense and STs gave up 8 TDs.....thats 56 points. Think about that for a minute then consider that we missed the playoffs by 1 win. I'm not saying our defense was great and there are no issues but lets be honest here.

That offense you speak of was ranked somewhere around 15 in points scored. thats not getting it done....I don't care how you spin it. There is no excuse for that much talent on offense to struggle to score points. When your offense fails in the redzone and when your ST's puts your defense's back to the wall....losses will happen.

yea we stunk in the 4th quarter. Why that is I'm not sure. Maybe our defense was on the field too much? Injuries to Smith and Troy did not help. We were plenty good in the first 3 quarters. Another thing worth mentioning is the play calling on offense. In the past we were running the ball down our opponents throats come the 4th quarter.....OR Ben was mounting a back breaking drive. The opponent can't mount a 4th quarter come back when they cant get on the field. Neither of those things happened on offense which of course put our defense on the field for most of the 4th quarter.

X-Terminator
01-04-2010, 11:13 AM
Sorry but that just isn't accurate.

Our offense and STs gave up 8 TDs.....thats 56 points. Think about that for a minute then consider that we missed the playoffs by 1 win. I'm not saying our defense was great and there are no issues but lets be honest here.

That offense you speak of was ranked somewhere around 15 in points scored. thats not getting it done....I don't care how you spin it. There is no excuse for that much talent on offense to struggle to score points. When your offense fails in the redzone and when your ST's puts your defense's back to the wall....losses will happen.

yea we stunk in the 4th quarter. Why that is I'm not sure. Maybe our defense was on the field too much? Injuries to Smith and Troy did not help. We were plenty good in the first 3 quarters. Another thing worth mentioning is the play calling on offense. In the past we were running the ball down our opponents throats come the 4th quarter.....OR Ben was mounting a back breaking drive. Neither of those things happened on offense which of course put our defense on the field for most of the 4th quarter.

1. The Steelers finished 12th in the league in points scored (23 PPG). Should have been better because of their red zone problems, I agree, but it's still enough to win more often than not.

2. The defense was NOT on the field too much this season. The Steelers ranked 4th in the NFL in TOP (33:11 per game) despite being a pass-first offense. I see this come up all the time - it simply is not accurate. Their problems in the 4th Q were a combination of lots of factors - poor coverage, awful tackling, lack of a pass rush - but NOT because they were on the field too much during the game. HTG is absolutely correct that the D could not hold leads that the O gave them. It doesn't matter if it's 3 points or 30 - it's still up to the D to get the job done. Also, you can't really say that the D was on the field for most of the 4th in those games, not when those teams were scoring quickly because they were giving up big plays in bunches.

CPanther95
01-04-2010, 11:55 AM
All the great ones have a slump in their 36th year.

madtowndrunkard
01-04-2010, 12:40 PM
1. The Steelers finished 12th in the league in points scored (23 PPG). Should have been better because of their red zone problems, I agree, but it's still enough to win more often than not.

2. The defense was NOT on the field too much this season. The Steelers ranked 4th in the NFL in TOP (33:11 per game) despite being a pass-first offense. I see this come up all the time - it simply is not accurate. Their problems in the 4th Q were a combination of lots of factors - poor coverage, awful tackling, lack of a pass rush - but NOT because they were on the field too much during the game. HTG is absolutely correct that the D could not hold leads that the O gave them. It doesn't matter if it's 3 points or 30 - it's still up to the D to get the job done. Also, you can't really say that the D was on the field for most of the 4th in those games, not when those teams were scoring quickly because they were giving up big plays in bunches.

12th in the league is not good at all when you consider the talent on this team and the fact that we played some real garbage teams this year...not just the usual Browns X2....how about the chiefs, Browns x2, and Lions..... The 3 worst defenses in the league and we got to play them 4X. Lets not forget the Dolphins, Raiders and Titans who are also in the bottom 10 in defense. That's 7 games against the worst defenses in the league. The bears are the 11th worst in points allowed.

That 23 points per game you mention includes 21 points scored by our defense. We also tied for 3rd in FGs w/ 27. We are 14th in the league in scoring TD's and that also includes the 3 TD's our defense gave us.

Here is how our offense faired against some of the worst defenses in the league:

vs Titans = 13pts
vs Chicago = 14 pts
vs Detroit = 28 pts
vs Cleveland = 27 pts
vs Cleveland = 6 pts
vs KC = 24 pts
vs Oakland = 24 pts
vs Miami = 30 pts


and how many TD's and FG's did our defense give us in these games? We have to be the most inconsistent offense in the league.

X-Terminator
01-04-2010, 12:57 PM
12th in the league is not good at all when you consider the talent on this team and the fact that we played some real garbage teams this year...not just the usual Browns X2....how about the chiefs, Browns x2, and Lions..... The 3 worst defenses in the league and we got to play them 4X. Lets not forget the Dolphins, Raiders and Titans who are also in the bottom 10 in defense. That's 7 games against the worst defenses in the league. The bears are the 11th worst in points allowed.

That 23 points per game you mention includes 21 points scored by our defense. We also tied for 3rd in FGs w/ 27. We are 14th in the league in scoring TD's and that also includes the 3 TD's our defense gave us.

Here is how our offense faired against some of the worst defenses in the league:

vs Titans = 13pts
vs Chicago = 14 pts
vs Detroit = 28 pts
vs Cleveland = 27 pts
vs Cleveland = 6 pts
vs KC = 24 pts
vs Oakland = 24 pts
vs Miami = 30 pts


and how many TD's and FG's did our defense give us in these games? We have to be the most inconsistent offense in the league.

I just said I agree the offense should have scored more points, and blamed it on the red zone problems. Between the 20s, the O was great...inside the 20, not so much. What else do you want me to say? I just refuse to blame that as the reason the D shit the bed time and time again in the 4th Q...which come to think of it, IS what you want me to do, along with many others on this board.

redundantman
01-04-2010, 12:59 PM
What a scared cow may look like
http://rlv.zcache.com/burgers_funny_cow_hat-p148496804093978970qz14_400.jpg

madtowndrunkard
01-04-2010, 01:16 PM
I just said I agree the offense should have scored more points, and blamed it on the red zone problems. Between the 20s, the O was great...inside the 20, not so much. What else do you want me to say? I just refuse to blame that as the reason the D shit the bed time and time again in the 4th Q...which come to think of it, IS what you want me to do, along with many others on this board.


No I do agree with you some what. I think the offense did not do our defense any favors....I also think our STs really screwed us every chance they got....but in the 4th quarter you are correct our pass defense stunk. Why? I don't know but I'm guessing it was a combination of the things I mentioned above and the injuries to Smith and Troy.

...plus Timmons and Farrior not living up to expectations....along w/ Gay and Ike just flat out sucking. We were especially bad in the middle of the field which again makes me point to the play from our Safeties and our ILb's. So basically injuries and a couple players not playing well hurt us in pass defense. It just so happens come the 4th quarter teams pretty much abandoned the run and just throw on us at will. You do have to question our conditioning as well. Did the coaching staff get the players ready in camp? There were plenty of questions as to how "easy" our camp and pre season was on the players....... I'm thinking all of this played a factor.

X-Terminator
01-04-2010, 01:21 PM
No I do agree with you some what. I think the offense did not do our defense any favors....I also think our STs really screwed us every chance they got....but in the 4th quarter you are correct our pass defense stunk. Why? I don't know but I'm guessing it was a combination of the things I mentioned above and the injuries to Smith and Troy.

...plus Timmons and Farrior not living up to expectations....along w/ Gay and Ike just flat out sucking. We were especially bad in the middle of the field which again makes me point to the play from our Safeties and our ILb's. So basically injuries and a couple players not playing well hurt us in pass defense. It just so happens come the 4th quarter teams pretty much abandoned the run and just throw on us at will. You do have to question our conditioning as well. Did the coaching staff get the players ready in camp? There were plenty of questions as to how "easy" our camp and pre season was on the players....... I'm thinking all of this played a factor.

I think all of that is a factor, sure. The horrible tackling also played a major role and led to a LOT of big plays both through the air and especially on the ground. Conditioning plays a role there as well, along with a breakdown in fundamentals. There are a whole host of reasons as to why they will be watching the playoffs on TV next weekend - you can't pin it on any one thing.

Fire Haley
01-04-2010, 01:33 PM
If nothing else was consistent, at least this was: No lead was safe in the fourth quarter, when the Steelers lost five times after being ahead.

4xSBChamps
01-04-2010, 01:38 PM
... we stunk in the 4th quarter. Why that is I'm not sure. Maybe our defense was on the field too much? Injuries to Smith and Troy did not help. We were plenty good in the first 3 quarters. ..

by the time many of our games this year got into the 4th quarter, the score was within 10 points, ahead or behind, so the opposition was intent on passing even-more:
with the most uniquely-talented defensive player in the League wearing a wind-breaker & sweat-pants, it made-sense to pass the ball against Pittsburgh, where (I believe) we were most vulnerable, with the game on the line

I listened to many of the games, but saw maybe 6 at the local tavern, so I have a question..... what was the 3rd down conversion rate against 'em Stillers' defense this year?
:noidea:

I ask because many times, it seemed when we needed a stop most, the opposing teams converted & moved the sticks, keeping key drives alive
:doh:

I'll hang-up and listen for yinz' answer..... luv da show
:helmet:

HometownGal
01-04-2010, 01:40 PM
If nothing else was consistent, at least this was: No lead was safe in the fourth quarter, when the Steelers lost five times after being ahead.

Exactly. :applaudit: Could have been 2-3 more losses on top of that 5 (Detroit, Green Bay, Miami). We're damned lucky to have finished 9-7 with the rate our D blew 4Q leads. :banging:

madtowndrunkard
01-04-2010, 01:41 PM
If nothing else was consistent, at least this was: No lead was safe in the fourth quarter, when the Steelers lost five times after being ahead.


This is true....and the FO and Tomlin should be addressing these issues.

I think the answers are actually pretty easy...

Defensively injuries hurt us....we need more depth in our secondary and I have faith DL can fix the issues if given the right players.

Offensively I have no faith in Arians...he's been given the right tools but still struggles to show any kind of consistency and its been that way all 3 seasons under his watch.

STs are in need of an over haul. We need a coaching staff that has proven they know how to direct a STs unit.

Tomlin needs to take a serious look at his approach to conditioning and pre season preparation. Tomlin had no answers and he needs to figure out a way to win back the locker room. right now it does not appear that the players have Tomlin's back in any way.

I'd also bring in someone who has a proven track record when it comes to the O-line. This team needs some fresh messages because I don't think the players are responding to the current messages.

T.Richardson
01-04-2010, 05:06 PM
12th in the league is not good at all when you consider the talent on this team and the fact that we played some real garbage teams this year...not just the usual Browns X2....how about the chiefs, Browns x2, and Lions..... The 3 worst defenses in the league and we got to play them 4X. Lets not forget the Dolphins, Raiders and Titans who are also in the bottom 10 in defense. That's 7 games against the worst defenses in the league. The bears are the 11th worst in points allowed.

That 23 points per game you mention includes 21 points scored by our defense. We also tied for 3rd in FGs w/ 27. We are 14th in the league in scoring TD's and that also includes the 3 TD's our defense gave us.

Here is how our offense faired against some of the worst defenses in the league:

vs Titans = 13pts
vs Chicago = 14 pts
vs Detroit = 28 pts
vs Cleveland = 27 pts
vs Cleveland = 6 pts
vs KC = 24 pts
vs Oakland = 24 pts
vs Miami = 30 pts


and how many TD's and FG's did our defense give us in these games? We have to be the most inconsistent offense in the league.

This is how the defense faired against some of the worst offenses in the league.

vs Detroit = 20
vs KC = 27
vs Oakland = 27 (4th quarter.. 21, the Offense scored 14, had only like 30 seconds to go 70 yards))

The offense should have scored on more redzone opportunities..but the offense having to score every possession is a problem..

Injuries to 2 players (main ones) does not give this defense an excuse at all.. Last year ben was hurt, and you guys crucified him for poor play on offense..come on now..

GodofGridiron
01-04-2010, 07:43 PM
Look pal - if you don't knock it the hell off with your blatant ignorance and condescending attitude, you're going to be shown the door. I've had enough of it.

I am entitled to my opinion just as you are to yours. Doesn't make either of us right or wrong. I view the problems on this team in one light - you view them in a different light and that's A-OK. However - I am NOT going to be talked down to and made to look like some bubbleheaded female who wouldn't know a football if it hit her in the head when that is definitely not the case. I'm sick to death of being followed around by you and your snarky little remarks.

Ohhh so when youre letting a text formatted bulletin board exchange get under your skin HTG. I thought all along you could hang with intense debate but im guessin thats far from the case. I care not what your gender is......theres many here that ive made the same sort of remarks towards in the past. But for some odd reason you take them as offensive and condescending. Hmmmmm...okay.

I expect more of a moderator

Im still tryin to figure out what part of my post made you wrinkle exactly.

X-Terminator
01-04-2010, 07:53 PM
Ohhh so when youre letting a text formatted bulletin board exchange get under your skin HTG. I thought all along you could hang with intense debate but im guessin thats far from the case. I care not what your gender is......theres many here that ive made the same sort of remarks towards in the past. But for some odd reason you take them as offensive and condescending. Hmmmmm...okay.

I expect more of a moderator

Well ya know, when you constantly have your comments mocked and ridiculed - oftentimes comments that other male members make without being mocked and talked down to - you might get a little bit sick of it yourself. I mean, God forbid a woman have any kind of opinion about football, since after all, to most men the only thing a woman should be doing on football Sundays is fetching them their beer and pretzels.

Think about that for a minute, read your previous post to her, and then ask yourself again why she would react like that.

lionslicer
01-04-2010, 08:02 PM
LeBeau isn't sacred, I'm tired of people defending him. Like every D-Cooridator, his defense is going to have some bad years. I personally think he's being too conservative and not agressive enough with his blitzes in the 2nd half of games. Last year the Steelers played from behind a lot, so his defense was always fighting to get the ball back to the offense, he's not used to playing with a big lead and his defense is looking a little bad in the 2nd half of games.

GodofGridiron
01-04-2010, 08:14 PM
Well ya know, when you constantly have your comments mocked and ridiculed - oftentimes comments that other male members make without being mocked and talked down to - you might get a little bit sick of it yourself. I mean, God forbid a woman have any kind of opinion about football, since after all, to most men the only thing a woman should be doing on football Sundays is fetching them their beer and pretzels.

Think about that for a minute, read your previous post to her, and then ask yourself again why she would react like that.

One thing im not is sexist..i grew up in a home with women that had a keen interest in athletics. I could care less what HTGs gender is. I made a comment, and i stand by my comments and theres no salt to lend with regard to her sex. Thats not even in this equation. Ive come at males here much more pointed than what i remitted to her. I actually think its great to have a female perspective but i think anybody that makes bold comments need to provide substance and facts and not just blow off at the mouth.

But why should she throw her weight around just because shes a mod. If i dont like what u say or take insult as a member i gotta suck it up and move on. However when the tables are turned she threatens a ban ? Come on........

Texasteel
01-04-2010, 08:15 PM
Ohhh so when youre letting a text formatted bulletin board exchange get under your skin HTG. I thought all along you could hang with intense debate but im guessin thats far from the case. I care not what your gender is......theres many here that ive made the same sort of remarks towards in the past. But for some odd reason you take them as offensive and condescending. Hmmmmm...okay.

I expect more of a moderator

Im still tryin to figure out what part of my post made you wrinkle exactly.

You might try talking to someone like a grown up. Instead of trying to make your point with insulting remarks. You would have more credibility that way. This post is a perfect example.

steeldawg
01-04-2010, 08:43 PM
This is absolutely the correct assesment of our team.

tony hipchest
01-04-2010, 08:54 PM
The offense should have scored on more redzone opportunities..but the offense having to score every possession is a problem..

not being able to score a td vs the inept browns is an even bigger problem.

6 points.

40 pass/18 rush

frigid temp and 40 mph wind gusts.

is beating the browns offensively too much to ask?

Texasteel
01-04-2010, 09:02 PM
not being able to score a td vs the inept browns is an even bigger problem.

6 points.

40 pass/18 rush

frigid temp and 40 mph wind gusts.

is beating the browns offensively too much to ask?

I thought the Browns game was the worse game of the year. Maybe for both the offense and the defense.

tony hipchest
01-04-2010, 09:37 PM
I thought the Browns game was the worse game of the year. Maybe for both the offense and the defense.well in the defenses defense they did hold the browns to thirteen points and if you ask any steelers player if that should be enough to beat the brownies, all of them to a tee would say "yes".

i thought that was the absolute worst offensive game we have had called in the 3 years under arians.

worse than vs philly last year
worse than the 3-0 "mud-bowl" vs miami in 07, and worse than losing to crappiest in the league, clement led jet team the same year.

here is something absolutely HILARIOUS about the browns-

they ended their season on a 4 game winning streak. they began that winning streak by stealing a page out of the steelers gameplans of days past and simply out rushing them. it was simple enough. it was the exact gameplan we used to beat them in inclimate weather in cleveland the year before.

now look at their final 3 games and the new rushing phenom named jerome harrison.

WK 15 vs KC - 34/286/3
WK 16 vs OAK- 39/148/1
WK 17 vs JAX- 33/127/1

all 3 games were wins. jerome hadnt had more than 10 carries in a game since week 4.

guess what that game was? the week 4 match up vs the bengals where they needed every last second in overtime to avaid a tie on a game ending kick. harrison had 29 carries for 121 yds in what was their best game of their 1-11 season (other than the detroit loss) to that point.

it isnt rocket science. all this 'chess not checkers' spew and rhetoric is just for those who think they are higher minded and wish to elevate themselves over the rest of our MB community of fans.

but the browns adhered to a simple formula of winning. we couldnt beat the browns, oak, and kc in 3 consecutive weeks.

the browns were able to beat us, oak, and kc in consecutive weeks WITHOUT passing for 100 yds in a single game.

what does that tell anyone?

do the browns know something the steelers coaches dont know (other than that they were the last team to fire arians and we were the last team to hire him)?

i hate to bash the guy. he has shown the capability to call a damn good game (like the past 3 weeks, for the better part, after tomlin encouraged him to pull his head out of his ass).

but he has also shown the propensity to look conventional wisdom and logic in the face and thumb his nose at it to prove he is a genius above and beyond simple football 101.

KISS.

T.Richardson
01-04-2010, 09:48 PM
not being able to score a td vs the inept browns is an even bigger problem.

6 points.

40 pass/18 rush

frigid temp and 40 mph wind gusts.

is beating the browns offensively too much to ask?

The Browns game was all on the offense..

is it too much to ask to stop Bruce Gradkowski from driving the down field for a game winning TD?

BlastFurnace
01-04-2010, 09:54 PM
Ohhh so when youre letting a text formatted bulletin board exchange get under your skin HTG. I thought all along you could hang with intense debate but im guessin thats far from the case. I care not what your gender is......theres many here that ive made the same sort of remarks towards in the past. But for some odd reason you take them as offensive and condescending. Hmmmmm...okay.

I expect more of a moderator

Im still tryin to figure out what part of my post made you wrinkle exactly.

5...4...3...2.....

tony hipchest
01-04-2010, 09:58 PM
The Browns game was all on the offense..

is it too much to ask to stop Bruce Gradkowski from driving the down field for a game winning TD?dont give them 3 offensive possessions in the final 8 minutes. :coffee:

9 running plays for no gain and three 3 and outs essentially runs 6 minutes off the clock. pretty hard to score 3 td's in 2 minutes in todays nfl.

pepsyman1
01-04-2010, 10:08 PM
do the browns know something the steelers coaches dont know (other than that they were the last team to fire arians and we were the last team to hire him)?

i hate to bash the guy. he has shown the capability to call a damn good game (like the past 3 weeks, for the better part, after tomlin encouraged him to pull his head out of his ass).

but he has also shown the propensity to look conventional wisdom and logic in the face and thumb his nose at it to prove he is a genius above and beyond simple football 101.

KISS.

I'm right with you Tony. Regardless of what anyone wants to believe, MOST Superbowl winning teams have solid productive running games and a decent balance between the two. (Even the Rams and the "Greatest Show on Turf" were #5 in rushing that year) I don't care if we are a passing offense as long as there is a true commitment to having a productive running game....and NO WHERE in this man's history has he shown the ability to field a good running game.
:applaudit:

fansince'76
01-04-2010, 10:19 PM
is it too much to ask to stop Bruce Gradkowski from driving the down field for a game winning TD?

Yep, it is - especially when he's hooking up with the incomparable Louis "The Second Coming of Jerry Rice" Murphy.

stlrtruck
01-06-2010, 03:38 PM
I mean this with no disrespect whatsoever...

...but has Dick LeBeau been put on a plateau that makes him immune to criticism? The failure of this team is not their offense, but their defense.

Funny, but I'm a supporter of Bruce Arians...I believe this offensive line is horrible, probably the worst this team has had in years. Arians has taken the hand he's been dealt, realizing this is NOT a power-running team, and is utilizing the weapons he has. We have a 4,000 yd. passer, a 1,000 yd. rusher, and 2 1,000 yd. receivers - a FIRST in team history. Yet, Arians gets blasted. This is totally unfair.

However, I have witnessed this defense get torched. I haven't read a single article calling for Dick LeBeau's head. I love the guy, but this is his defense. I realize that Polamalu & Smith are injured and the loss of McFadden hurts more than many want to admit... but those losses (in my eyes) are the equivalent of putting a penny offensive line in front of a 100 million dollar quarterback.

I am not a fan of bashing anyone's job... Seven losses this year were tough to swallow because none of them were more than a touchdown, and surprisingly it was the Browns who handed the Steelers their worst defeat. But watching this defense go into melt-down mode was very hard to witness. The problem on this team is not their offense...it's their defense. Who's accountable for that?


To answer your first question, imho, YES!

He's had better results in years past but it is his past records that allow him a down season every so often.

He's UNTOUCHABLE in my mind.

GoSlash27
01-06-2010, 05:30 PM
IRT the original post,
Coach Dad isn't a sacred cow, he's a "standard". He has established his bona-fides so many times and so completely that he is effectively immune from criticism.
Something *has* gone wrong with the defense, but we can conclude from his body of work over the years that the problem cannot possibly lie with him.
Placing the blame on him is kinda like saying that Thomas Edison doesn't know about electricity or Albert Einstein doesn't know about relativity. There's literally nobody on the planet better qualified to coach a Blitzburgh 3-4 defense than Dick LeBeau.