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View Full Version : Tom Brady IS a System QB.


revefsreleets
01-04-2010, 11:31 AM
His numbers are almost EXACTLY what I predicted they'd be based on the fact that all benefits of their cheating days have been removed.

28 TD's
13 INT's
4400 Passing yards

It doesn't take Nostradamus to prognosticate this, all the data is right there in his career stats. He's a better than average QB playing in the most QB friendly system in the NFL.

(edit) Since my fanclub of haters questions EVERYTHING I post, including facts, stats, figures , analysis (including things they themselves may or may not even understand), here's a link to the first thread when I started tinkering with the idea that Brady was only above average, and guestimating his numbers:
http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=39764&page=3
Bear in mind these numbers were originally based on Cassel's #'s in NE and I refined this a little as I went. Still, the original point is salient and clear.

Angus Burgher
01-04-2010, 11:58 AM
Interesting. For all of those people who insist that "Big Ben shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as Tom Terrific!", his stats this season are very similar, despite a much weaker O-Line, a very questionable running game and receivers who are arguably not as good as what Brady has to work with.

26 TDs
12 INTs
4,328 yards
66.6% completion (Tom's is 65.7)
100.5 Rating (Tom's at 96.2)

revefsreleets
01-04-2010, 12:09 PM
Tom Brady in the Steelers offense would flop. He crumbles like Peanut Brittle under pressure...I'd expect the numbers to flip (12 TD's to 26 INT's) and about 2700 yards passing. Ben also has a much better Y/C stat of 8.6 compared to 7.8. Brady was only close to that in his penultimate cheating season of 2007, and then he was only at 8.3.

cubanstogie
01-04-2010, 12:30 PM
you guys are kidding right? I know we are all bitter and pissed at our disappointing year but this appears to be sour grapes at its worst. Joe Montana arguably the best QB ever could be called a system QB. Thats what a QB does, its not who can throw the best spiral or throw it 80 yards. Wins and losses folks, thats what we preached at the beginning of Bens career when all he did was win. People kept saying he was a game manager. I hate the patsies but Brady has been the best or second best QB in the last 10 years, I don't care what system he is in.

revefsreleets
01-04-2010, 12:44 PM
you guys are kidding right? I know we are all bitter and pissed at our disappointing year but this appears to be sour grapes at its worst. Joe Montana arguably the best QB ever could be called a system QB. Thats what a QB does, its not who can throw the best spiral or throw it 80 yards. Wins and losses folks, thats what we preached at the beginning of Bens career when all he did was win. People kept saying he was a game manager. I hate the patsies but Brady has been the best or second best QB in the last 10 years, I don't care what system he is in.

Two words: Matt Cassel. ANY QB can play in a little dink and dunk offense with a solid line and the plays being piped into his helmet (at least during the grand glory days*). 28 and 14 are solid numbers, but they are NOT elite, and they do NOT add up to the hype. The winning is heavily tainted, as well, so scratch THAT idea....which reminds me, I also had the Pats at 10-6 and losing in the Divisional Rd, which looks like it's also coming to bear.

Not sour grapes. This is having my eyes wide open and hating the team and all it stands for enough to not give a shit if it's unpopular to point out how awful they are.

cubanstogie
01-04-2010, 12:51 PM
Two words: Matt Cassel. ANY QB can play in a little dink and dunk offense with a solid line and the plays being piped into his helmet (at least during the grand glory days*). 28 and 14 are solid numbers, but they are NOT elite, and they do NOT add up to the hype. The winning is heavily tainted, as well, so scratch THAT idea....which reminds me, I also had the Pats at 10-6 and losing in the Divisional Rd, which looks like it's also coming to bear.

Not sour grapes. This is having my eyes wide open and hating the team and all it stands for enough to not give a shit if it's unpopular to point out how awful they are.


I agree they will not go far in playoffs, although I see them beating the Ravens. I just don't thing Brady is the reason why. If I had to choose 2 qb's to command a come from behind drive in the SB from the last 30 years they would be Montana, then Brady. Thats just me, I like a consistent guy that isn't going to make a mistake. As opposed to say Elway or Favre who are all great QB's but different types. Elway and Favre more fun to watch IMO though.

revefsreleets
01-04-2010, 12:58 PM
You've bought they hype, my friend.

Not me.....not me......

By the way, the ONLY reason they may make it to the divisional Rd is that they play the Rats at home. After losing an absolute MUST win to us last week, the Rats proved they are completely undeserving of making the playoffs.

Angus Burgher
01-04-2010, 01:08 PM
Yeah, I'm rooting for the Pats and the Cowboys next weekend. I hate both of those teams, but I hate the Ravens and the Eagles more. Once those two asshole teams are out of the playoffs I can rest easy. I highly doubt that New England and Dallas will last much longer than that anyway.

Oh, and of course I also hope the Bungles lose, but that's such a given that I don't even think it needs mentioning.

CantStop85
01-04-2010, 01:20 PM
Two words: Matt Cassel. ANY QB can play in a little dink and dunk offense with a solid line and the plays being piped into his helmet (at least during the grand glory days*). 28 and 14 are solid numbers, but they are NOT elite, and they do NOT add up to the hype. The winning is heavily tainted, as well, so scratch THAT idea....which reminds me, I also had the Pats at 10-6 and losing in the Divisional Rd, which looks like it's also coming to bear.

Not sour grapes. This is having my eyes wide open and hating the team and all it stands for enough to not give a shit if it's unpopular to point out how awful they are.

Since when do the Patriots run a dink and dunk offense? They have Randy Moss for a reason and it's not to throw screens and out routes all day. Brady was 11th in passing yards per attempt this season...I would hardly say they're just dinking and dunking their way down the field.

I hate the use of the phrase "system QB," at least in the NFL. Cassel has comparable numbers to Brady because he had the same talented personnel around him. They also scaled back the offense for Cassel when Brady went down. Brady puts up big numbers in part because of the talent around him...of course he would put worse numbers with a less talented team...that's how it works.

By your logic, Brett Favre is a system QB because he's succeeding in Minnesota with AP and that o-line in an offense he's familiar with but he struggled with a less talented Jets team in an offense he was less familiar with. Would Brady struggle in Pittsburgh? Sure, because he's not a mobile QB and doesn't have the same skill set as a Ben Roethlisberger...does that make him a mediocre QB? I don't think so. Every team tries to put their QB into an offense in which they will succeed (unless it's Alex Smith and they change offensive coordinators every year)...Brady and the Patriots are no exception.

The cheating aspect may be a valid discussion point...but then again, Brady did put up 50 TD's even after they were ousted.

Larry
01-04-2010, 01:53 PM
Yeah, I'm rooting for the Pats and the Cowboys next weekend. I hate both of those teams, but I hate the Ravens and the Eagles more. Once those two asshole teams are out of the playoffs I can rest easy. I highly doubt that New England and Dallas will last much longer than that anyway.

Oh, and of course I also hope the Bungles lose, but that's such a given that I don't even think it needs mentioning.

Nah...screw the Pats*. Seeing them get knocked out in the wild card round would be too sweet.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-04-2010, 01:59 PM
WOW......I agree with a Bengal fan. :doh:

Brady to Moss deep, not really a system. Brady throwing long passes to Deion Branch.....similar. I agree with Cubanstogie that Brady is probably in the top 2 QB's of the past decade and while I hate the Patriots, I still hate that we drafted Tee Martin in the 5th instead of Tom Brady. :banging:

iloveben7
01-04-2010, 03:26 PM
Tom Brady is just like everyone else when not being allowed to cheat

Steel_12
01-04-2010, 03:45 PM
WOW......I agree with a Bengal fan. :doh:

Brady to Moss deep, not really a system. Brady throwing long passes to Deion Branch.....similar. I agree with Cubanstogie that Brady is probably in the top 2 QB's of the past decade and while I hate the Patriots, I still hate that we drafted Tee Martin in the 5th instead of Tom Brady. :banging:

Exactly...How can anybody doubt Tom Brady's excellence? He wins football games and that's what great Quarterbacks do. I think Peyton is better at the position but I would take Tom over Peyton at the end of a game because of his clutch play.

HughC
01-04-2010, 06:51 PM
I never have understood this 'dink and dunk offense, system quarterback', etc. debate. I mean, if it's that simple, why aren't dozens of other teams doing the same thing, and just plug in any journeyman QB? Why wouldn't New England have just traded Brady and kept Cassel a year ago and saved themselves a ton of money/used the money elsewhere?

4400 yards and 28 TD/13 Int is not bad at all. Probably a fairly short list of NFL quarterbacks who did better than 15 more touchdowns than interceptions this year. I'm guessing that all but about six other teams would have taken those numbers from their QB this year over the performance they did get, so I'm unclear on what that 'proves'.

On the other hand I do completely agree that the media doesn't give Ben enough love. But he's not the only one; you could say the same thing about Rivers, Rodgers and Schaub with the seasons they have had this year too.

Brady's far from the league's most over-hyped quarterback over the last decade. He was after all the starting quarterback on three championship teams, so you have to expect a little bit of infatuation by the media over him. But that most over-hyped QB of the decade honor has to go to Brett Favre (although he has played well this year), probably followed by Eli Manning; could probably include Michael Vick from his pre-conviction days on that list as well.

BlastFurnace
01-04-2010, 09:46 PM
Tom Brady in the Steelers offense would flop. He crumbles like Peanut Brittle under pressure...I'd expect the numbers to flip (12 TD's to 26 INT's) and about 2700 yards passing. Ben also has a much better Y/C stat of 8.6 compared to 7.8. Brady was only close to that in his penultimate cheating season of 2007, and then he was only at 8.3.

This is nonsense. Brady knows his "system" and does it better than nearly everyone else in the league.

This "system" QB tears apart our defense nearly every single time we play them. He knows our defense better than our players do.

Brady is a great QB. You don't throw 50 TD's in one season if you aren't great.

BlastFurnace
01-04-2010, 09:52 PM
Since when do the Patriots run a dink and dunk offense? They have Randy Moss for a reason and it's not to throw screens and out routes all day. Brady was 11th in passing yards per attempt this season...I would hardly say they're just dinking and dunking their way down the field.

I hate the use of the phrase "system QB," at least in the NFL. Cassel has comparable numbers to Brady because he had the same talented personnel around him. They also scaled back the offense for Cassel when Brady went down. Brady puts up big numbers in part because of the talent around him...of course he would put worse numbers with a less talented team...that's how it works.

By your logic, Brett Favre is a system QB because he's succeeding in Minnesota with AP and that o-line in an offense he's familiar with but he struggled with a less talented Jets team in an offense he was less familiar with. Would Brady struggle in Pittsburgh? Sure, because he's not a mobile QB and doesn't have the same skill set as a Ben Roethlisberger...does that make him a mediocre QB? I don't think so. Every team tries to put their QB into an offense in which they will succeed (unless it's Alex Smith and they change offensive coordinators every year)...Brady and the Patriots are no exception.

The cheating aspect may be a valid discussion point...but then again, Brady did put up 50 TD's even after they were ousted.

Nice post.

I'll take a system QB and my 3 SB's any decade I can.

Brady's job is to take what the defense gives him and he does that better than nearly everybody else.

tony hipchest
01-04-2010, 11:48 PM
well i guess we all should be waving palm leaves in the wake of the guru, but there really is nothing too profound here. i threw these stats in the face of the previous football patriot mb savant, LITP, several years ago before spygate was revealed-

tom brady td/int

2001- 18/12
2002- 28/14
2003- 23/12
2004- 28/14
2005- 26/14
2006- 24/12

the point being that you can count on 12-14 int from brady EVERY year. this was before the cheating was cut out, in 07. i really dont see how his numbers this year have tapered off since they were obviously cheating since belichick arrived and brady was a rookie in 00.

sure the cheating helped. it helped them win games. it helped them win championships. and it quickly helped develop a 6th round pick into the qb he is today.

=4000+/28td/12-14 int.

"garbage in, garbage out".... you still cant make "chicken salad" out of a "checkers" analysis.

The Patriot
01-05-2010, 12:36 AM
I knew we should have stuck with Drew and Carroll.

tony hipchest
01-05-2010, 12:43 AM
I knew we should have stuck with Drew and Carroll.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/lovegurunewtrailer.jpg

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-05-2010, 02:13 AM
I knew we should have stuck with Drew and Carroll.

Yeah, at least Drew didnt play for Michigan. All those guys are system QB's.

tony hipchest
01-05-2010, 02:18 AM
arent all the USC guys "system qb's" too? :huh:

MattsMe
01-05-2010, 02:23 AM
F*** Tom Brady.

brett favre.

Preacher
01-05-2010, 02:24 AM
IMO, Speaking of Brady as the best QB in the NFL, or one of them, will always be tainted because of the cheating.

Why? I have said it before.

One of the CORE issues of a QB coming out of college is the mental part of the game. They can have ALL the physical skills, but if they can't get over the mental hurdles, they are doomed.

What happened with Brady, is that the learning curve was severely flattened out. He was given a VERY unfair advantage his first 4 or 5 years in the league. He learned the speed of the game, knowing what defense was already coming after him.

He simply doesn't belong in the discussion because he took an illegal shortcut in his development.

MattsMe
01-05-2010, 02:31 AM
IMO, Speaking of Brady as the best QB in the NFL, or one of them, will always be tainted because of the cheating.

Why? I have said it before.

One of the CORE issues of a QB coming out of college is the mental part of the game. They can have ALL the physical skills, but if they can't get over the mental hurdles, they are doomed.

What happened with Brady, is that the learning curve was severely flattened out. He was given a VERY unfair advantage his first 4 or 5 years in the league. He learned the speed of the game, knowing what defense was already coming after him.

He simply doesn't belong in the discussion because he took an illegal shortcut in his development.

That's exactly what I meant with my post above yours. You just took the long way to say it. :chuckle:

The Patriot
01-05-2010, 02:42 AM
IMO, Speaking of Brady as the best QB in the NFL, or one of them, will always be tainted because of the cheating.

Why? I have said it before.

One of the CORE issues of a QB coming out of college is the mental part of the game. They can have ALL the physical skills, but if they can't get over the mental hurdles, they are doomed.

What happened with Brady, is that the learning curve was severely flattened out. He was given a VERY unfair advantage his first 4 or 5 years in the league. He learned the speed of the game, knowing what defense was already coming after him.

He simply doesn't belong in the discussion because he took an illegal shortcut in his development.

Brett Favre once completed a 23 yard touchdown pass after losing his shoe.

Preacher
01-05-2010, 03:26 AM
Brett Favre once completed a 23 yard touchdown pass after losing his shoe.

See, that is the type of thing you just can't learn on videotape! :chuckle:

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 10:06 AM
IMO, Speaking of Brady as the best QB in the NFL, or one of them, will always be tainted because of the cheating.

Why? I have said it before.

One of the CORE issues of a QB coming out of college is the mental part of the game. They can have ALL the physical skills, but if they can't get over the mental hurdles, they are doomed.

What happened with Brady, is that the learning curve was severely flattened out. He was given a VERY unfair advantage his first 4 or 5 years in the league. He learned the speed of the game, knowing what defense was already coming after him.

He simply doesn't belong in the discussion because he took an illegal shortcut in his development.

Thank you. I didn't think I needed to run over all that same ground again, but apparently it needed doing.

The 50 TD year was the culmination of all the cheating. Sure, they were "caught" early in 2007, but why in the World would that stop them? They had all the information they needed by that point. I'm not entirely sure they were caught tampering with radio frequencies, and may still have employed that method of gaining an unfair advantage. Competing teams can't just undo a whole system of plays and signals overnight. 2007 WAS the culmination of all the cheating, the apotheosis of competitive advantages for the Pats, and ALL the evidence suggests the same. Their stats and wins and all the other data before that year and after it kind of level out, but there is a giant SPIKE right in the middle of it.

Also, let me be clear. By "system", I mean a team that has a solid line, passes the ball A LOT, starts form the short pass out (which set up those long passes to Moss et al), and runs high percentage passing plays based off quicker 3-5 step drops (Which isn't to say the Pats* DON'T employ 7 step drops and longer routes, just that they base their passing game off the shorter stuff)

I've suggested that probably 15-20 QB's in the league could step into that situation and put up similar (28/14, 4000) numbers year in and year out. Matt Cassel goes a long way towards proving that. Had he started again this year, he'd have done just that. In KC his numbers tailed off which is to be expected. He still threw the ball a lot, but he didn't have the talent or the system to support him he did in NE. Conversely, I'd say if you put Brady in Cassel's shoes this year, HIS numbers would probably be about the same (16/16, 2924).

Brady is "Brady" because of Belichick cheating, and NE creating a system that features the pass, and a few dubious SB wins which none of us will EVER know exactly how illegitimate they really were.

BlastFurnace
01-05-2010, 10:20 AM
Thank you. I didn't think I needed to run over all that same ground again, but apparently it needed doing.

The 50 TD year was the culmination of all the cheating. Sure, they were "caught" early in 2007, but why in the World would that stop them? They had all the information they needed by that point. I'm not entirely sure they were caught tampering with radio frequencies, and may still have employed that method of gaining an unfair advantage. Competing teams can't just undo a whole system of plays and signals overnight. 2007 WAS the culmination of all the cheating, the apotheosis of competitive advantages for the Pats, and ALL the evidence suggests the same. Their stats and wins and all the other data before that year and after it kind of level out, but there is a giant SPIKE right in the middle of it.

Also, let me be clear. By "system", I mean a team that has a solid line, passes the ball A LOT, starts form the short pass out (which set up those long passes to Moss et al), and runs high percentage passing plays based off quicker 3-5 step drops (Which isn't to say the Pats* DON'T employ 7 step drops and longer routes, just that they base their passing game off the shorter stuff)

I've suggested that probably 15-20 QB's in the league could step into that situation and put up similar (28/14, 4000) numbers year in and year out. Matt Cassel goes a long way towards proving that. Had he started again this year, he'd have done just that. In KC his numbers tailed off which is to be expected. He still threw the ball a lot, but he didn't have the talent or the system to support him he did in NE. Conversely, I'd say if you put Brady in Cassel's shoes this year, HIS numbers would probably be about the same (16/16, 2924).

Brady is "Brady" because of Belichick cheating, and NE creating a system that features the pass, and a few dubious SB wins which none of us will EVER know exactly how illegitimate they really were.

So...in nearly every ocassioin when Brady has played us...Brady rips our secondary a new one when he plays us, it's the system

When our defense ripped Cassell a new one last year, it's still the same NE system.

Bottom line, Brady is skilled enough to make it work against the better teams. Cassell isn't.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 10:53 AM
So...in nearly every ocassioin when Brady has played us...Brady rips our secondary a new one when he plays us, it's the system

When our defense ripped Cassell a new one last year, it's still the same NE system.

Bottom line, Brady is skilled enough to make it work against the better teams. Cassell isn't.

You REALLY need to fact check yourself before you start tossing stuff out there. This data is available on NFL.com for all to see, so you might want to check there first before you start telling me how wrong I am.

First off, Brady has had good games AND bad against the Steelers. In 2004, he was sacked 4 times and threw 2 INT's against the Steelers. In 2005 he threw for a bunch of yards, but was again sacked 3 times, had zero TD's and threw a pick. Incidentally, his best game against the Steelers was in 2007. Brady crumbles under pressure. So does Cassel. In fact, Cassel's numbers after being sacked 5 times against Pittsburgh last year weren't too terribly far off Brady's when he was sacked 4 in 2005. Brady also had YEARS of experience compared to mere games for Cassel. No reason to believe that on a level playing field, over time, Matt Cassel couldn't exactly duplicate Brady's success.

To further back up the FACT that Brady runs a short passing game and woks up from there, of the 565 passes thrown this year, almost 300 of Brady's were 0-10 yards, and another 100 were 11-20.

The Patriot
01-05-2010, 11:16 AM
Tom Brady IS a System QB.

Guess what...

The system works! :toofunny:

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revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 11:22 AM
Guess what...

The system works!



Yes it does. Thank you for agreeing with me.

In fact, I was looking at Brian Hoyer's numbers from Sunday. 8-12, 71 yards, 5.9 yard avg. Considering his inexperience, not bad...extrapolating out, even that dude could conceivable put together a decent season playing for NE (and ONLY NE).

BlastFurnace
01-05-2010, 11:26 AM
You REALLY need to fact check yourself before you start tossing stuff out there. This data is available on NFL.com for all to see, so you might want to check there first before you start telling me how wrong I am.

First off, Brady has had good games AND bad against the Steelers. In 2004, he was sacked 4 times and threw 2 INT's against the Steelers. In 2005 he threw for a bunch of yards, but was again sacked 3 times, had zero TD's and threw a pick. Incidentally, his best game against the Steelers was in 2007. Brady crumbles under pressure. So does Cassel. In fact, Cassel's numbers after being sacked 5 times against Pittsburgh last year weren't too terribly far off Brady's when he was sacked 4 in 2005. Brady also had YEARS of experience compared to mere games for Cassel. No reason to believe that on a level playing field, over time, Matt Cassel couldn't exactly duplicate Brady's success.

To further back up the FACT that Brady runs a short passing game and woks up from there, of the 565 passes thrown this year, almost 300 of Brady's were 0-10 yards, and another 100 were 11-20.

Ok. Here are your facts where Brady played the entire game against us

Brady is 4-1 against the Steelers

He is 131 / 194 passing for 68% Pass Completion
He has an 11/3 TD/INT Ratio against the Steelers

Anyone who watched any of these games that the Pats won against the Steelers knows that he had his way with our defense.

9/9/2002: - Patriots 30 Steelers 14

29 for 43 294 yards 3 TD's 0 INT's

10/31/2004 Steelers 34 Patriots 20

25 for 43 271 yards 2 TD's 2 INT's

1/23/2005 - Patriots 41 Steelers 27

14 for 21 271 yards 2 TD's 0 INT's

9/25/2005 Patriots 23 Steelers 20

31 for 41 372 yards 0 TD's 1 INT's

9/9/2007 Patriots 34 Steelers 13

32 for 46 399 yards 4 TD's 0 INT's

You REALLY need to fact check yourself before you start tossing stuff out there. This data is available on NFL.com for all to see, so you might want to check there first before you start telling me how wrong I am..

I guess I REALLY DID check my facts. They speak for themselves.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 11:33 AM
Ok. Here are your facts where Brady played the entire game against us

Brady is 4-1 against the Steelers

He is 131 / 194 passing for 68% Pass Completion
He has an 11/3 TD/INT Ratio against the Steelers

9/9/2002: - Patriots 30 Steelers 14

29 for 43 294 yards 3 TD's 0 INT's

10/31/2004 Steelers 34 Patriots 20

25 for 43 271 yards 2 TD's 2 INT's

1/23/2005 - Patriots 41 Steelers 27

14 for 21 271 yards 2 TD's 0 INT's

9/25/2005 Patriots 23 Steelers 20

31 for 41 372 yards 0 TD's 1 INT's

9/9/2007 Patriots 34 Steelers 13

32 for 46 399 yards 4 TD's 0 INT's



I guess I REALLY DID check my facts. They speak for themselves.

Yes, thank you for retroactively checking the same exact stats that I used to bolster my argument. They prove that Brady had .......good games and bad against the Steelers, just as I posited.

And you can lend all the weight you like to the good games, in particular the games when the Pats were cheating, but that won't change the fact that it's possible that TOM BRADY NEVER PLAYED A LEGITIMATE GAME AGAINST US. The first time the Patriots were completely untainted was last year, and there is no reason at all to believe that Brady would have fared any better than Cassel did.

BlastFurnace
01-05-2010, 11:39 AM
Yes, thank you for retroactively checking the same exact stats that I used to bolster my argument. They prove that Brady had .......good games and bad against the Steelers, just as I posited.

And you can lend all the weight you like to the good games, in particular the games when the Pats were cheating, but that won't change the fact that it's possible that TOM BRADY NEVER PLAYED A LEGITIMATE GAME AGAINST US. The first time the Patriots were completely untainted was last year, and there is no reason at all to believe that Brady would have fared any better than Cassel did.

I didn't bolster your argument one bit. Anyone who has watched any of these games where the Patriots won, knows that Brady can pick apart our defense. Even in the game where he didn't throw any TD's he drove them down for the game winning score at the end of the game.

The numbers prove it. Brady still needed to execute and he did.

You're telling me that Brady wouldn't have had an easier time of things than Cassell did last year ? Yeah...right. I think even the biggest Steeler home would disagree with you there.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 11:51 AM
I didn't bolster your argument one bit. Anyone who has watched any of these games where the Patriots won, knows that Brady can pick apart our defense. Even in the game where he didn't throw any TD's he drove them down for the game winning score at the end of the game.

The numbers prove it. Brady still needed to execute and he did.

You're telling me that Brady wouldn't have had an easier time of things than Cassell did last year ? Yeah...right. I think even the biggest Steeler home would disagree with you there.

You're ignoring the whole thrust of the argument. The majority of Brady's body of work is tainted at best, a complete farce at worst.

Regardless, look at Cassel's #'s for last year:
327 of 516
63.4% completion
3693 yards
7.2 y/c
21 TD's
11 INT's
89.4 rating

Those numbers are commensurate with Brady's first 6 seasons in the NFL, and are actually far superior to Brady's first year starting.

The evidence is overwhelming....either YOU are suggesting that Matt Cassel is some kind of great QB, or Tom Brady is NOT anything special. You can't have it both ways, and there isn't a third argument to be made.

This isn't about Brady, and it's not about Cassel. It's about NE. Brady Quinn could play QB for them and excel if they aren't cheating, and probably any second team QB in the NFL could put up magnificent numbers WITH the benefit of cheating.

The Patriot
01-05-2010, 12:06 PM
Yes it does. Thank you for agreeing with me.

In fact, I was looking at Brian Hoyer's numbers from Sunday. 8-12, 71 yards, 5.9 yard avg. Considering his inexperience, not bad...extrapolating out, even that dude could conceivable put together a decent season playing for NE (and ONLY NE).

So our franchise has created a "system" that effectively utilizes players to their full potential so they can cooperatively work to win football games?

PalmerSteel
01-05-2010, 12:09 PM
i dont like the gay ass brady and pasties either, but to say he isnt that great is kind of rediculious. call it a "system qb" or "game manager" or whatever, any QB who puts up solid numbers and wins CONSISTANTLY like brady has, deserves to be mentioned with the great ones like he is. would i want him over ben? HELL NO!!!! BUT, the dude, gay or not, deserves credit. there are many QB's that can do good for their first year playing. its the following year that teams have lots of game tape to watch on you and can gameplan on you better, that shows what type of QB you truly have. cassell, right now is still on the "wait and see" category. if he is good or not will be determined next year.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 12:20 PM
Brady has great NUMBERS. That's undeniable.

What's questionable is how he arrived at them...Bernie Madoff was an exceptionally wealthy individual, but he made his money in an illegitimate and illegal fashion. Was Bernie Madoff a great man? Is Tom Brady a great QB? The question isn't all that different for each.

Also, bear in mind that NE throws the ball a lot. Brady is always near the top of the list of attempts (but not % completions). Throwing the ball is naturally going to lead to more yards, and more TD passes. THIS dovetails with NE running an attractive system for QB's.

BlastFurnace
01-05-2010, 02:04 PM
Brady has great NUMBERS. That's undeniable.

What's questionable is how he arrived at them...Bernie Madoff was an exceptionally wealthy individual, but he made his money in an illegitimate and illegal fashion. Was Bernie Madoff a great man? Is Tom Brady a great QB? The question isn't all that different for each.

Also, bear in mind that NE throws the ball a lot. Brady is always near the top of the list of attempts (but not % completions). Throwing the ball is naturally going to lead to more yards, and more TD passes. THIS dovetails with NE running an attractive system for QB's.

They also hold the record for points per season with 589. They are every single season. NE's motto on offense is...if it works, keep on doing it. But, they need a QB to execute it. Brady is great at doing that.

CantStop85
01-05-2010, 02:18 PM
This thread is hilarious. :chuckle:

SteelersinCA
01-05-2010, 03:08 PM
Brady has great NUMBERS. That's undeniable.

What's questionable is how he arrived at them...Bernie Madoff was an exceptionally wealthy individual, but he made his money in an illegitimate and illegal fashion. Was Bernie Madoff a great man? Is Tom Brady a great QB? The question isn't all that different for each.


Exceptional wealth is not the measure of a man, winning games and stats ARE the measure of a great QB. That's a completely irrelevant comparison.

That is all, carry on.

MasterOfPuppets
01-05-2010, 04:09 PM
So our franchise has created a "system" that effectively utilizes players to their full potential so they can cooperatively work to win football games?
is he conceeding that belechik is a good coach ? :huh:

43Hitman
01-05-2010, 04:49 PM
and there is no reason at all to believe that Brady would have fared any better than Cassel did.

Are you working on your comedy routine cause this has to be a joke..Lmao!

The Patriot
01-05-2010, 06:58 PM
is he conceeding that belechik is a good coach ? :huh:

That's never gonna happen.

:pillowfight:

cubanstogie
01-05-2010, 08:16 PM
If it makes you guys feel better go ahead and call Brady a system QB. We will have a separate category for system qb's. best ever, Joe Montana. 2nd best Tom Brady. I guess we can throw Ben into it as well since we did better as a team when he was a game manager. I will take wins and SB's over Revs non system QB's, they can have the punt, pass and kick trophies.

cubanstogie
01-05-2010, 08:30 PM
another question I have, how can a guy who excels in a 2 minute offense be a system QB. 2 minute drill is a different system, therefore he excels in 2 systems IMO.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 10:01 PM
I was unaware of any cheating scandals involving the 49ers or Chiefs. Was Montana the beneficiary of some early career malfeasance on the part of San Francisco? He WAS a system QB as well, and there's nothing wrong with identifying him as such. He was a West Coast Offense QB, short drops, high percentage passes, and his stats bear that out. Difference is, he never cheated.

My assertion remains this...on a level playing field, all things being equal, a dozen or more QB's could do what Brady does if they played in NE. Conversely, there are probably 28 teams where Brady would NOT fare as well as he does in NE.

As for the relative brilliance of Belichick, he passes the ball a lot, and a lot of those passes are high percentage passes. That helps. He's an above average coach who learned after he got his second chance, and he had advantages. GREAT coaches NEVER have 41-55 stretches....

cubanstogie
01-05-2010, 10:13 PM
I was unaware of any cheating scandals involving the 49ers or Chiefs. Was Montana the beneficiary of some early career malfeasance on the part of San Francisco? He WAS a system QB as well, and there's nothing wrong with identifying him as such. He was a West Coast Offense QB, short drops, high percentage passes, and his stats bear that out. Difference is, he never cheated.

My assertion remains this...on a level playing field, all things being equal, a dozen or more QB's could do what Brady does if they played in NE. Conversely, there are probably 28 teams where Brady would NOT fare as well as he does in NE.

As for the relative brilliance of Belichick, he passes the ball a lot, and a lot of those passes are high percentage passes. That helps. He's an above average coach who learned after he got his second chance, and he had advantages. GREAT coaches NEVER have 41-55 stretches....

I think if you put Brady on any team in AFC, besides Steelers, Colts, and Chargers those teams' record would be improved over what they are now, and I am hesitant even putting the Steelers on that list. Because Ben had such a great year I include them. I would say more like 4 could do what Brady does in NE. We have more talent than NE does this year and look at us.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 10:21 PM
I think if you put Brady on any team in AFC, besides Steelers, Colts, and Chargers those teams' record would be improved over what they are now, and I am hesitant even putting the Steelers on that list. Because Ben had such a great year I include them. I would say more like 4 could do what Brady does in NE. We have more talent than NE does this year and look at us.

Brady on KC would be a slight improvement over Matt Cassel. He'd certainly improve any team with an average QB or worse, since he's an ABOVE AVERAGE QB. The list of QB's who would do what Brady does OR BETTER if they played in NE for two years (give them a year to adjust):
Brees
Manning
Manning
Rivers
Palmer
Schaub
Roethlisberger
Warner
Rodgers
Romo
McNabb
Ryan

cubanstogie
01-05-2010, 10:34 PM
Brady on KC would be a slight improvement over Matt Cassel. He'd certainly improve any team with an average QB or worse, since he's an ABOVE AVERAGE QB. The list of QB's who would do what Brady does OR BETTER if they played in NE for two years (give them a year to adjust):
Brees
Manning
Manning
Rivers
Palmer
Schaub
Roethlisberger
Warner
Rodgers
Romo
McNabb
Ryan

come on, you have jumped on the bandwagon of Palmer, Romo, Ryan McNabb, and Shaub. None of those guys have won a medium size game, yet alone a big game. Ok Mcnabb has won a couple of fairly big games. The other guys are a bunch of chokers. Brady has never been in the same sentence as choker, as much as most of us would like him to. Don't forget Brady played well enough to beat the Giants in the SB if it weren't for some great catches by Tyree. Its not like he lost the game. No way in hell the above QB's get to 4 SB's let alone win 3. Hell the Colts have had better teams and only have 1.

revefsreleets
01-05-2010, 10:39 PM
come on, you have jumped on the bandwagon of Palmer, Romo, Ryan McNabb, and Shaub. None of those guys have won a medium size game, yet alone a big game. Ok Mcnabb has won a couple of fairly big games. The other guys are a bunch of chokers. Brady has never been in the same sentence as choker, as much as most of us would like him to. Don't forget Brady played well enough to beat the Giants in the SB if it weren't for some great catches by Tyree. Its not like he lost the game. No way in hell the above QB's get to 4 SB's let alone win 3. Hell the Colts have had better teams and only have 1.


Actually, when you start feeding the defensive plays into the QB's helmet, I might EXPAND that list.

43Hitman
01-05-2010, 11:55 PM
You could also say that Kordell would have thrived on those 49er teams. It would be stupid, but you could say it. I am starting to think you are serious though. Which makes this thread so much funnier.

tony hipchest
01-06-2010, 12:34 AM
this entire thread and the supposed argument contained within is a complete fallacy in the first place.

how has brady regressed 2 years after spygate and when he has rebounded from an injury that crippled carson for 2 years and culpepper for the rest of career, when he has simply regained his typical, and historical stats and numbers as if nothing happened.

brady pretty much put up about 25 td's and 13 int's (like clockwork) just like through the 5-6 years of benefiting from cheating .

2 years removed (from cheating and the injury) he is pretty much doing what he always has historically done.

not sure what point has been made here. not much drop off . 2007 was an aberration, and other offensive teams are catching up. one shouldnt forget, manning almost broke marinos td record, and brees almost broke his passing record with no cheating whatsoever. :noidea:

we all pretty much knew the patriots cheated 2 years ago. :coffee:

being that this thread has as much validity of the "arians fired" rumor threads maybe this "thread should be closed".

43Hitman
01-06-2010, 12:07 PM
this entire thread and the supposed argument contained within is a complete fallacy in the first place.

how has brady regressed 2 years after spygate and when he has rebounded from an injury that crippled carson for 2 years and culpepper for the rest of career, when he has simply regained his typical, and historical stats and numbers as if nothing happened.

brady pretty much put up about 25 td's and 13 int's (like clockwork) just like through the 5-6 years of benefiting from cheating .

2 years removed (from cheating and the injury) he is pretty much doing what he always has historically done.

not sure what point has been made here. not much drop off . 2007 was an aberration, and other offensive teams are catching up. one shouldnt forget, manning almost broke marinos td record, and brees almost broke his passing record with no cheating whatsoever. :noidea:

we all pretty much knew the patriots cheated 2 years ago. :coffee:

being that this thread has as much validity of the "arians fired" rumor threads maybe this "thread should be closed".

But, but ,but Revs is the only that can demand thread closings.

revefsreleets
01-06-2010, 12:30 PM
LOL....the braintrust strikes again!

Brady had the benefit of learning how to play the position with incredible advantages. Tim Couch might be looking at a HOF career now had HE had the same advantages. Brady also has seen an increase in attempts, ostensibly due to him being increasingly comfortable in NE's system. This, in turn, led to increased level-playing-field stats. He's a good QB....better than average, and his stats (post cheating) bear that out. But the way he BECAME an above average QB is dubious. And it's undeniable that he (as did Cassel) benefits from playing in a super friendly QB system.

As for Kordell, he would NOT have thrived on those 49ers teams, because he NEVER learned how to read a defense, was a below average QB. He could have had some decent numbers in NE, however.

jeru
01-10-2010, 10:04 PM
brady is a fraud,
i've been a pats fan long before this fraud showed up. of course hes a system qb. the kool aid drinkers here and NE dont want to hear any negative comments about brady. he has always been overated. todays game shows how lousy he can be. brady is too interestted in being a rock star and doesnt have what it takes to play in the nfl. until the pats get rid of this fraud, they wont be competitve, which is good for you steeler fans.

revefsreleets
01-11-2010, 09:02 AM
Little pressure and no plays being piped into his helmet = 3 sacks, 23/42, 55% completion, 3 INT's/2TD's, 154 yards, 49.1 QBR.

That's a forty nine point one Quarterback rating.

It's a LOT tougher to win in playoff games when you don't have any competitive advantages....

WH
01-12-2010, 02:35 PM
Little pressure and no plays being piped into his helmet = 3 sacks, 23/42, 55% completion, 3 INT's/2TD's, 154 yards, 49.1 QBR.

That's a forty nine point one Quarterback rating.

It's a LOT tougher to win in playoff games when you don't have any competitive advantages....

Or Wes Welker, the WR that accounted for 25% of Brady's yards.

Dino 6 Rings
01-12-2010, 05:25 PM
I agree they will not go far in playoffs, although I see them beating the Ravens. I just don't thing Brady is the reason why. If I had to choose 2 qb's to command a come from behind drive in the SB from the last 30 years they would be Montana, then Brady. Thats just me, I like a consistent guy that isn't going to make a mistake. As opposed to say Elway or Favre who are all great QB's but different types. Elway and Favre more fun to watch IMO though.

Funny since the only two QBs to ever drive the length of the field for a game winning Touchdown in the Super Bowl are Montana and Roethlisberger.

Dino 6 Rings
01-12-2010, 05:27 PM
The cheating aspect may be a valid discussion point...but then again, Brady did put up 50 TD's even after they were ousted.

But that was still prior to the defenders getting the signals called into their helmets.