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Leftoverhard
01-04-2010, 11:25 AM
Revisionaries
How a group of Texas conservatives is rewriting your kids’ textbooks.


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2010/1001.blake.html

Intermingling church and state until there is no difference....you can thank Texas. Seriously, this is so wrong. Just another example of how the almighty dollar will buy anything - even at the cost of education.

revefsreleets
01-04-2010, 11:35 AM
“This critical-thinking stuff is gobbledygook”

That dude would fit right in on this board...

Anyway, if this is "influence", I'm not too worried. But if they start publishing "Science" books with pictures of Noah riding around on a Dinosaur, then we really have a problem.

Leftoverhard
01-04-2010, 03:36 PM
The quotes in that article are endless - this one jumped out too - "The way I evaluate history textbooks is first I see how they cover Christianity and Israel. Then I see how they treat Ronald Reagan—he needs to get credit for saving the world from communism and for the good economy over the last twenty years because he lowered taxes.” The most important parts of any textbook...Gobbledygook!

I think that's the direction they're going here. Texas holds the most sway in granting national contracts and in such a competitive environment the publishers will "do anything" to get those contracts. The fact that the publishers are automatically leaving out key facts just to have a shot at the bidding shows how far this could go.
Whoooey!

Vincent
01-05-2010, 06:24 AM
You got me on this one Lefty! The title had me thinking you were going to say something about the revisionist "history" being "taught" in public "schools" and the hallowed halls of "higher education" over the last 50 years, and coming from you, that seemed strange. :chuckle:

GBMelBlount
01-05-2010, 02:37 PM
You got me on this one Lefty! The title had me thinking you were going to say something about the revisionist "history" being "taught" in public "schools" and the hallowed halls of "higher education" over the last 50 years, and coming from you, that seemed strange. :chuckle:

Bingo brother.

Lefty is a bit one-sided and myopic so this little piece has more relevance to lefty than the big picture....

Sorry lefty, had to get that jab in. :flap:

Preacher
01-05-2010, 02:43 PM
“This critical-thinking stuff is gobbledygook”

That dude would fit right in on this board...

Anyway, if this is "influence", I'm not too worried. But if they start publishing "Science" books with pictures of Noah riding around on a Dinosaur, then we really have a problem.

So critical thinking means agreeing with you? How is that critical thinking?

Leftoverhard
01-05-2010, 03:28 PM
Bingo brother.

Lefty is a bit one-sided and myopic so this little piece has more relevance to lefty than the big picture....

Sorry lefty, had to get that jab in. :flap:

Don't sweat it - being one of the rare non-ultra conservatives who post here, I can see how you would feel that way - In my world, I'm just a little left of center. Never thought of myself as one-sided or myopic though.

43Hitman
01-05-2010, 03:57 PM
Revisionaries
How a group of Texas conservatives is rewriting your kids’ textbooks.


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2010/1001.blake.html

Intermingling church and state until there is no difference....you can thank Texas. Seriously, this is so wrong. Just another example of how the almighty dollar will buy anything - even at the cost of education.

Then you should love this thread....


http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=44708

Preacher
01-05-2010, 04:07 PM
Don't sweat it - being one of the rare non-ultra conservatives who post here, I can see how you would feel that way - In my world, I'm just a little left of center. Never thought of myself as one-sided or myopic though.


I've been to New Mexico, I can see how you could think yourself just a little left of center. :rofl:


I used to LOVE to go to Glorietta New Mexico, just outside of Santa Fe.

Leftoverhard
01-05-2010, 07:32 PM
Then you should love this thread....

http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=44708

Recommended reading is much different than required reading (textbooks). Anything else?

Preacher - actually New Mexico is a "purple state" - so in fact, it's right down the middle. It's not nearly as liberal as people think for some reason. On this board, this uber-conservative board, I'm an anomoly. Go figure! I've been to Glorieta a few times for work, nice place.

Vincent
01-05-2010, 07:48 PM
Bingo brother.

I don't think I'll ever see "Bingo" the same again. :rofl::rofl::rofl::sofunny::toofunny::rofl:

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43Hitman
01-05-2010, 11:15 PM
Recommended reading is much different than required reading (textbooks). Anything else?

Preacher - actually New Mexico is a "purple state" - so in fact, it's right down the middle. It's not nearly as liberal as people think for some reason. On this board, this uber-conservative board, I'm an anomoly. Go figure! I've been to Glorieta a few times for work, nice place.

Ummm did you read any of those excerpts from that list? Do you have children?

Preacher
01-06-2010, 01:22 AM
Recommended reading is much different than required reading (textbooks). Anything else?

Preacher - actually New Mexico is a "purple state" - so in fact, it's right down the middle. It's not nearly as liberal as people think for some reason. On this board, this uber-conservative board, I'm an anomoly. Go figure! I've been to Glorieta a few times for work, nice place.

If you have been to downtown santa fe, you know exactly how I can think that! :rofl:

It is beautiful. There is a massive camp complex there owned by the SOuthern Baptist Denomination. It is simply gorgeous. Lots of hiking etc. Went there as a college student during "Student week".

Spoke in tongues in the prayer garden with a member of the opposite sex once or twice too. :chuckle:

Whoops...nevermind!

xfl2001fan
01-06-2010, 05:50 AM
Don't sweat it - being one of the rare non-ultra conservatives who post here, I can see how you would feel that way - In my world, I'm just a little left of center. Never thought of myself as one-sided or myopic though.

Yeah, well, Pigs don't know pigs stink is how the saying goes. :flap:

Vincent
01-06-2010, 06:05 AM
Yeah, well, Pigs don't know pigs stink is how the saying goes. :flap:

Beastly insensitive of you X!

:rofl::rofl::rofl::toofunny::sofunny::rofl:

urgle burgle
01-12-2010, 08:44 PM
that kind of influence on textbooks is just as bad as howard zinns revisionist history being forced into schools in CA.....both are despicable to a nation whos children barely know anything about this country's history and know even less when it comes time to vote.

Leftoverhard
01-13-2010, 03:40 PM
howard zinns revisionist history being forced into schools in CA.

Link? I hadn't heard about that.

NJarhead
01-13-2010, 04:08 PM
This is not a knock on LeftOverHard or Tone or any other lefty on this forum, but it has been my experience that the Liberal professors at the schools I've attended like to create conspiracy theories with both 9-11 and Pearl Harbor, plus compare Truman's dropping of the bomb on Nagasaki and Hiroshima to "Auschwitz." AUSCHWITZ!!! :banging:

EVERY SINGLE ONE of them that I've encountered and it makes me sick that they put this crap in the impressionable minds of our college aged kids. Funny how they never argue it with me once I take a stand against it.

Vincent
01-13-2010, 07:10 PM
Funny how they never argue it with me once I take a stand against it.

They don't have an argument. I've not met an argument to this date.

One of our sons once faced down his "professor" and 35+ other students in "economics" on the stupidity of "graduated income tax". Their argument? "You're just against it because you're 'rich'.". BTW, we aren't "rich".

And anyone that had relatives in the Pacific theater knows that the Hiroshima / Nagasaki decision saved at least a million lives - mostly Japanese. I've been to kraut camps. The comparison isn't valid.

urgle burgle
01-13-2010, 09:02 PM
http://www.zinnedproject.org/why

http://bighollywood.breitbart.com/bshapiro/2009/12/10/illegality-of-using-zinn-education-project-in-california-schools/

http://www.tuff-teach.com/pcs/showthread.php?t=24743

these are some links showing how zinn's education project is making its way through our school systems. i couldnt find exactly Ca's issue, but these links mention some parts. i tried to find comments from both sides, so peruse. but know his revisionist history is being used in our schools. in addition his stuff is a favorite to be used at the college level.

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 09:30 AM
They don't have an argument. I've not met an argument to this date.

One of our sons once faced down his "professor" and 35+ other students in "economics" on the stupidity of "graduated income tax". Their argument? "You're just against it because you're 'rich'.". BTW, we aren't "rich".

And anyone that had relatives in the Pacific theater knows that the Hiroshima / Nagasaki decision saved at least a million lives - mostly Japanese. I've been to kraut camps. The comparison isn't valid.


Yea, they don't wanna hear that. I've heard estimates of 5,000 or less from them. More lives were lost at Iwo Jima than that.

The horrors the Japanese inflicted the Chinese during the rape of Nanking alone, justified both of those bombs.

I recall reading a question in a book about the whether or not the decision to use the bomb should remain as a stain on the moral fabric of the United States blah, blah, blah. The authors of that text book were my U.S. History professors. I answered honestly and let's just say with a lot of passion.

43Hitman
01-14-2010, 11:05 AM
Yea, they don't wanna hear that. I've heard estimates of 5,000 or less from them. More lives were lost at Iwo Jima than that.

The horrors the Japanese inflicted the Chinese during the rape of Nanking alone, justified both of those bombs.

I recall reading a question in a book about the whether or not the decision to use the bomb should remain as a stain on the moral fabric of the United States blah, blah, blah. The authors of that text book were my U.S. History professors. I answered honestly and let's just say with a lot of passion.

Good for you! I read everything my son brings home, and correct any errors I find. So far as a first grader not much to correct, but I'm on IT!

Vincent
01-14-2010, 02:02 PM
Yea, they don't wanna hear that. I've heard estimates of 5,000 or less from them. More lives were lost at Iwo Jima than that.

One thing that has always amused me ("amused" might be the wrong word, but...) about the "discussion" regarding our use of atomic weapons on Japan is the absence of any discussion about the horrific firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese industrial centers. Hundreds of thousands were killed. Millions were wounded. Crickets.

The 8th Air Force can raze Germany. The 20th Air Force can raze Japan. But we use a couple of nukes to get the emperor's attention and the world goes nuts. :noidea:

BTW, I'm not criticizing the strategic bombing campaigns. They ended the war sooner rather than later and in our favor. Well done Gentlemen!!

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 02:30 PM
One thing that has always amused me ("amused" might be the wrong word, but...) about the "discussion" regarding our use of atomic weapons on Japan is the absence of any discussion about the horrific firebombing of Tokyo and other Japanese industrial centers. Hundreds of thousands were killed. Millions were wounded. Crickets.

The 8th Air Force can raze Germany. The 20th Air Force can raze Japan. But we use a couple of nukes to get the emperor's attention and the world goes nuts. :noidea:

BTW, I'm not criticizing the strategic bombing campaigns. They ended the war sooner rather than later and in our favor. Well done Gentlemen!!


We got some over Dresden, but ....

Most of these morons pointing their fingers are not OF that generation and have NO FRAME OF REFERENCE to be running their suck holes to begin with.

Talking to you fellas is making me feel better about things. At least I know I'm not alone.

And Hitman, I will be reviewing EVERYTHING my Son learns about history as well. I may not influence him, but I won't let anyone else influence him either. I just want to make sure he has ALL the available information and not just vague pieces of opinion, etc.

urgle burgle
01-14-2010, 02:50 PM
interestingly enough i recently did a paper for class on the subject of why the U.S. was justified using nukes on japan. you guys hit on a lot of the points. the casualties suffered in the battles of iwo, guadalcanal, saipan, etc. were more than the nukes. many thousands on our side, and many more thousands on there side (including civilians). the numbers estimated of casualties that would have been required in the invasion of the japanese homeland dwarfed the numbers of the nukes bombings. as well as already been mentioned, the fire bombings over japan and germany dwarfed them as well.
cute little john stewart tried to make a point last year (he later apologized for calling truman a war criminal) that if we had just dropped a bomb off the coast to let the japanes see what a nuke could do, they would have surrendered. this is an inherently false premise. we warned (with leaflets and some leaked intel) that we were going to attack with something the world had never seen. we bombed hiroshima and no surrender. we bombed nagasaki and no immediate surrender. in actuality, the military hierarchy attempted a coup (that was very nearly successful) to take the emperor out of action to continue on the fight. this was even after the two bombings and the knowledge that Russia had finally entered the fight and were heading to the homeland. revisionist history again.
let all the facts be known and let people decide for themselves without twisting the narrative to a political or idealogical end.

BIGBENFASTWILLIE
01-14-2010, 02:52 PM
Dont worry about it... Schools dont buy new text books.... The ones we use are from 1992... Its crazy but true.

urgle burgle
01-14-2010, 02:58 PM
ah true with some....but now that more money is being thrown into our school system these books are being updated at all levels of education. as well more emphasis is being put into approved "suggested" reading lists, and teachers being able to use other texts to teach class. less emphasis has been used on solely the distributed texts.

Vincent
01-14-2010, 03:03 PM
We got some over Dresden, but ....

The Brits bombed Dresden as revenge for the destruction of Coventry and its cathedral.

Talking to you fellas is making me feel better about things. At least I know I'm not alone.

I was born after the war but it was recent enough then to have still been in the minds of relatives and folks we grew up with. People just talked about it. The history we were taught was unvarnished. And history was always one of my favorite subjects. The left hadn't yet taken over "education".

And Hitman, I will be reviewing EVERYTHING my Son learns about history as well. I may not influence him, but I won't let anyone else influence him either. I just want to make sure he has ALL the available information and not just vague pieces of opinion, etc.

We made the decision to invest in private schools for ours. It is an investment in the future. We don't judge those that choose to send their kids to public school. That was just our deeply considered choice. We let them go to public school in 11th grade for the exposure to prepare them to deal with the mainstream. That all worked out well.

IMHO, the education of our children is one of our utmost responsibilities as parents. We are responsible for them and that includes what enters their minds. My job as a father is to pass on what I have learned as their primary reference against what they will encounter. This, we believe, is how we will continue to turn out generations of rock ribbed Americans instead of sheeple.

Insight into a rearing of a great counter revolutionary...

http://www.carnegieendowment.org/publications/index.cfm?fa=view&id=19980

"Buckley's success as a movement-builder and founder and editor of National Review required him to accommodate many different kinds of conservatives--from libertarians like Frank Chodorov to traditionalists like Russell Kirk to militant anti-communists like James Burnham--but his own views were, to use a Buckleyism, sui generis. They were not a product of reading Friedrich von Hayek or Leo Strauss, but rather of growing up under the tutelage of his eccentric and domineering father, William Frank (Will) Buckley. Will was, at heart, a counter-revolutionary, battling the forces of atheistic communism, and young Bill's conservatism came from following in his footsteps. He, too, could best be understood as a counter-revolutionary. And, when the revolution came to an end, so too did Buckley's peculiar brand of conservatism."
...

"Will Buckley didn't raise his children to be oilmen. Instead, he conveyed to them the higher value he placed upon spiritual, moral, and intellectual pursuits. Bill, the sixth of the ten children, showed from a very early age that he was determined to be exactly the child his father wanted. When Bill was born, he was named William Francis Buckley Jr., because there was no saint named Frank. But, when he was five, he announced that he would henceforward be called "William Frank Buckley Jr." exactly like his father. In 1938, his father sent the younger children, including Bill, to English boarding schools so that, he told them, they could learn to speak more clearly. Alone among the Buckley children, Bill returned to Sharon a year later with an English accent. Bill also adopted many of his father's mannerisms, including his hauteur, leading his oldest sister to dub him "the young mahster.""

43Hitman
01-14-2010, 03:58 PM
I wish we could afford private school, because we would definitely put him there. Fortunately though he is in the best public school in this area, so we are blessed for that.

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 04:04 PM
interestingly enough i recently did a paper for class on the subject of why the U.S. was justified using nukes on japan. you guys hit on a lot of the points. the casualties suffered in the battles of iwo, guadalcanal, saipan, etc. were more than the nukes. many thousands on our side, and many more thousands on there side (including civilians). the numbers estimated of casualties that would have been required in the invasion of the japanese homeland dwarfed the numbers of the nukes bombings. as well as already been mentioned, the fire bombings over japan and germany dwarfed them as well.
cute little john stewart tried to make a point last year (he later apologized for calling truman a war criminal) that if we had just dropped a bomb off the coast to let the japanes see what a nuke could do, they would have surrendered. this is an inherently false premise. we warned (with leaflets and some leaked intel) that we were going to attack with something the world had never seen. we bombed hiroshima and no surrender. we bombed nagasaki and no immediate surrender. in actuality, the military hierarchy attempted a coup (that was very nearly successful) to take the emperor out of action to continue on the fight. this was even after the two bombings and the knowledge that Russia had finally entered the fight and were heading to the homeland. revisionist history again.
let all the facts be known and let people decide for themselves without twisting the narrative to a political or idealogical end.

Not enough people acknowledge that.

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 04:07 PM
The Brits bombed Dresden as revenge for the destruction of Coventry and its cathedral.



It was sanctioned by SHAEF (of which Ike was in charge) and of the eight AF units that did the bombing; 7 were American and only 1 was British.

The Brits DID bomb the city area, but they only dropped a fraction of the ordinance that the Americans did.

Vincent
01-14-2010, 04:22 PM
It was sanctioned by SHAEF (of which Ike was in charge) and of the eight AF units that did the bombing; 7 were American and only 1 was British.

The Brits DID bomb the city area, but they only dropped a fraction of the ordinance that the Americans did.

"On the night of February 13-14, 1945, the almost 800 Royal Air Force Lancasters dropped 2,700 tons of bombs on the centre of the ancient city known as the “Florence of the Elbe.” Over the following two days, U.S. Air Force bombers carried out daytime raids on what was left of the community."
....

"Air Marshall Arthur Harris was in charge of organizing the attack on Dresden after receiving orders to do so from Britain’s Prime Minister Winston Churchill. Harris had introduced the tactic of area bombing cities, a system used earlier by the Germans and which they called terror bombing. Some have suggested the Dresden raid was payback for German terror bombing of Coventry, Rotterdam, Warsaw, and many other cities."

http://ww2history.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_bombing_of_dresden

The Brits fire bombed the city because it was an old German "fairy tale" city constructed largely of wood. It created a fire storm that actually sucked people into it.

Payback's a b@#$%.

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 04:27 PM
"On the night of February 13-14, 1945, the almost 800 Royal Air Force Lancasters dropped 2,700 tons of bombs on the centre of the ancient city known as the “Florence of the Elbe.” Over the following two days, U.S. Air Force bombers carried out daytime raids on what was left of the community."
....

"Air Marshall Arthur Harris was in charge of organizing the attack on Dresden after receiving orders to do so from Britain’s Prime Minister Winston Churchill. Harris had introduced the tactic of area bombing cities, a system used earlier by the Germans and which they called terror bombing. Some have suggested the Dresden raid was payback for German terror bombing of Coventry, Rotterdam, Warsaw, and many other cities."

http://ww2history.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_bombing_of_dresden

The Brits fire bombed the city because it was an old German "fairy tale" city constructed largely of wood. It created a fire storm that actually sucked people into it.

Payback's a b@#$%.


Here's an official and probably more credible source Homie:

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm

Tables included and here's an excerpt:

On 8 February 1945 SHAEF (Air) informed the RAF Bomber Command and the United States Strategic Air Forces that Dresden was among a number of targets that had been selected for bombing because of their importance in relation to the movements of military forces to the Eastern Front.28 This action, based upon the authoritative recommendation of the Combined Strategic Targets Committee, SHAEF (Air), and in turn based upon the recommendations of the Joint Intelligence Committee (see paragraph 16 above), was in keeping with the procedural structure and authority set up in SHAEF for the conduct of aerial operations by Allied forces.29

Vincent
01-14-2010, 04:43 PM
Here's an official and probably more credible source Homie:

http://www.airforcehistory.hq.af.mil/PopTopics/dresden.htm

Tables included and here's an excerpt:

From the table you quoted...

Date....Target Area....Force.....Acft....High Explosive bombs on target (tons)...Incediary bombs on target (tons)...Total

14/2/45...City Area...RAF BC...772.........................1477.7........... ........................1181.6.................... ....................2659.3

I believe that's what I said, Homie...

"On the night of February 13-14, 1945, the almost 800 Royal Air Force Lancasters dropped 2,700 tons of bombs on the centre of the ancient city...

The RAF concurs...

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/dresden.html

"796 Lancasters and 9 Mosquitoes were dispatched in two separate raids and dropped 1,478 tons of high explosive and 1,182 tons of incendiary bombs."

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 05:08 PM
From the table you quoted...

Date....Target Area....Force.....Acft....High Explosive bombs on target (tons)...Incediary bombs on target (tons)...Total

14/2/45...City Area...RAF BC...772.........................1477.7........... ........................1181.6.................... ....................2659.3

I believe that's what I said, Homie...



The RAF concurs...

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/dresden.html

"796 Lancasters and 9 Mosquitoes were dispatched in two separate raids and dropped 1,478 tons of high explosive and 1,182 tons of incendiary bombs."


Look, I don't want to argue over a small part of what we agree on as the bigger picture but there were 8 sorties flown and the one you keep mentioning is the only one run by the British. The other 7 were flown by the USAAF.

The whole operation was conducted by "The Allies" and we were in fact criticized for it.

Vincent
01-14-2010, 05:18 PM
Look, I don't want to argue over a small part of what we agree on as the bigger picture but there were 8 sorties flown and the one you keep mentioning is the only one run by the British. The other 7 were flown by the USAAF.

The whole operation was conducted by "The Allies" and we were in fact criticized for it.

"I'm not arguing with you. You're arguing with me". :chuckle:

What movie was that from? I always loved that line.

NJarhead
01-14-2010, 05:46 PM
"I'm not arguing with you. You're arguing with me". :chuckle:

What movie was that from? I always loved that line.


I don't know, but I'm definitely going to use it.

OT: My fave (until now) was always the-

Subject A - "I'm tired of arguing."

Subject B - "No you're not."

Subject A - "Yes. I am."

Subject B - "No you're not."

:chuckle:

Vincent
01-14-2010, 07:31 PM
No, you're not!!










































:rofl:

SteelMember
01-15-2010, 08:47 AM
I don't know, but I'm definitely going to use it.

OT: My fave (until now) was always the-

Subject A - "I'm tired of arguing."

Subject B - "No you're not."

Subject A - "Yes. I am."

Subject B - "No you're not."

:chuckle:

:laughing:

Sounds like the Python buy an arguement sketch...

http://wuzzle.org/argument.html

Good stuff.

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 09:27 AM
Concerning the decision to drop atomic bombs, one of the considerations was the CIVILIAN response to the US Invasion of Saipan. Rather than face the "torture" sure to be inflicted upon them by the "savage bloodthirsty US troops" (Jap propaganda), they hurled themselves off the Toshimbo Cliff's. Women carried their own CHILDREN to death.

Just think what mass hysteria would have enveloped the civilians on the mainland.

The Atomic bombs were us doing the Japanese a favor, and I'm not even accounting for the 10's of thousands of US troops who would have perished in such an assault.

NJarhead
01-15-2010, 10:46 AM
Concerning the decision to drop atomic bombs, one of the considerations was the CIVILIAN response to the US Invasion of Saipan. Rather than face the "torture" sure to be inflicted upon them by the "savage bloodthirsty US troops" (Jap propaganda), they hurled themselves off the Toshimbo Cliff's. Women carried their own CHILDREN to death.

Just think what mass hysteria would have enveloped the civilians on the mainland.

The Atomic bombs were us doing the Japanese a favor, and I'm not even accounting for the 10's of thousands of US troops who would have perished in such an assault.


That happened in Okinawa as well.

The horrors the Japanese inflicted to EVERYONE (even their own) could be compared to the Holocaust IMO.

Again, the barbarism they exhibited at Nanking alone, warranted both bombs.

urgle burgle
01-15-2010, 08:32 PM
very true...however as you pointed out previously, not enough of our citizenry know about Nanking, or other attrocities done by the Japanese. The Koreans still despise them for their occupation and using their women for sex slaves among other horrors.

Godfather
01-15-2010, 08:49 PM
very true...however as you pointed out previously, not enough of our citizenry know about Nanking, or other attrocities done by the Japanese. The Koreans still despise them for their occupation and using their women for sex slaves among other horrors.

I had a college roommate whose parents immigrated from Korea. His father's first car was named Enola Gay.

NJarhead
01-16-2010, 10:53 AM
very true...however as you pointed out previously, not enough of our citizenry know about Nanking, or other attrocities done by the Japanese. The Koreans still despise them for their occupation and using their women for sex slaves among other horrors.


Yep, what they did to pregnant women and infants (which is too vulger to describe here) as well.

They're also guilty of cannibalism of our own men in at least Chi Chi Jima. In fact, George H. Bush's crew were victims there themselves.

urgle burgle
02-01-2010, 11:49 AM
true.....hell what they did to their own was just as bad.....God forbid you wanted to surrender

zulater
02-01-2010, 01:03 PM
Concerning the decision to drop atomic bombs, one of the considerations was the CIVILIAN response to the US Invasion of Saipan. Rather than face the "torture" sure to be inflicted upon them by the "savage bloodthirsty US troops" (Jap propaganda), they hurled themselves off the Toshimbo Cliff's. Women carried their own CHILDREN to death.

Just think what mass hysteria would have enveloped the civilians on the mainland.

The Atomic bombs were us doing the Japanese a favor, and I'm not even accounting for the 10's of thousands of US troops who would have perished in such an assault.

Good points.

Had the Allies been forced to take the Japanese mainland by force the additional casualties most likely would have been in the high hundred thousands, if not millions.

The only problem I ever had with our use of the A- bomb is that once the genie's out of the bottle you can't put it back in.


But at the same token maybe the use of Atomic/ Nuclear weapons was ineviatable? Maybe the use of them then put enough fear into the future power brokers of the world to not use them since?

urgle burgle
02-01-2010, 03:40 PM
one never knows....but i doubt someone wouldnt have used it eventually. i guess, better us than the ussr against a helpless country (or us) before MAD (mutual assured destruction) was articulated.