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Acerinox
01-08-2010, 05:01 AM
So everyone wants to look like the world's biggest expert on tactics and stuff.
But there's something I can't work out and I thought I'd embarrass myself by asking it here. Also it contributes to the Arians debate which (as I understand it) is MANDATORY for every thread on this board.

What are the benefits of playing with an empty backfield?

I can see that you get an extra receiving target, which of course puts more pressure on your opponent's secondary - not just because it's an extra man to cover, but also means they have to go deeper into their depth chart to find someone do it.

But isn't the negative that they can take out anything and everything designed to protect against the run? Doesn't that free up a huge amount of personnel resource? And massively reduce their decision/reaction time?

Is it not ONLY useful for sets like 3rd and long when your opponent ALREADY knows you won't run?

Thanks for anyone kind enough to explain this to an idiot.

Bluedust
01-08-2010, 05:05 AM
http://www.waleg.com/celebrities/images/owen-wilson.jpg

Galax Steeler
01-08-2010, 05:08 AM
When you run this you need an offense that can block for a substantial amount of time this is why it didn't work well for us is because we couldn't hold a block long enough for Ben to find a receiver. The quick slant and the bunch formation worked good but if it wasn't there then more times then not Ben got sacked.

MasterOfPuppets
01-08-2010, 05:22 AM
So everyone wants to look like the world's biggest expert on tactics and stuff.
But there's something I can't work out and I thought I'd embarrass myself by asking it here. Also it contributes to the Arians debate which (as I understand it) is MANDATORY for every thread on this board.

What are the benefits of playing with an empty backfield?

I can see that you get an extra receiving target, which of course puts more pressure on your opponent's secondary - not just because it's an extra man to cover, but also means they have to go deeper into their depth chart to find someone do it.

But isn't the negative that they can take out anything and everything designed to protect against the run? Doesn't that free up a huge amount of personnel resource? And massively reduce their decision/reaction time?

Is it not ONLY useful for sets like 3rd and long when your opponent ALREADY knows you won't run?

Thanks for anyone kind enough to explain this to an idiot.
are you suggesting that not keeping the defense guessing is a bad strategy ??? :wtf:
well mister... FOR THE 100TH TIME...arians is a paid professional coach and your just a fan, so how dare you question his methods ...:mad: ...what part of 4000 yard passer and two 1000 yard receivers do you not understand ??? :banging:


guru will be so proud of me....:applaudit:

Rotorhead
01-08-2010, 05:42 AM
lol, welcome to the board, but your first post is a can of worms. Welcome to the fire!

LamarrWoodleysFade
01-08-2010, 07:04 AM
Oh, you didn't know? There's a HUGE benefit to it. We can get two 1,000 yard receivers, a 4,000 yard passer, and a (barely if you ask me) 1,000 yard rusher. Isn't that what the new Steelers football is about?

We can't even score points, but to hell with that! We'd rather drive down the field 80 yards just to score 3 points. But hey, as long as Ben and Mike Wallace hook up for a 50 yard bomb, we don't need points, we got stats and records!!!

I mean, isn't it smart to call an empty backfield on 3rd and goal? We have a stud running back who's proven himself 95% of the time when given the chance, but screw that! We want to increase Ben's TD total, only to in turn put Jeff Reed on the field and leave 4 points on the board.

You would think a pedestrian like Defense and Special Teams would factor in to smarter Offensive calling, but I'm not allowed to say that because, for whatever reason, some people are sensitive to that matter.

*sigh* Oh well, though. We'll just bring the same guy back and then sit and wonder next year why we're in the same spot. At least we'll continue to break TEAM records and have some of the best stats in the league, with no hardware to show for it...

vrabinec
01-08-2010, 08:17 AM
It's a great formation if you have a QB who makes lightning quick reads and gets rid of the ball extremely fast, a Marino, Manning, Brees, Rivers type of guy, because invariably, you end up with one of your receivers being covered one on one by a safety or someone you think you can exploit, and a quick read will allow you to deliver the ball to that receiver before any kind of rush can get to your QB, regardless of what kind of overwhelming numbers the defense sends. Unfortunately, our QB, great as he is, isn't the quickest at making reads and so, in order for that type of play to work in our offense we need the QB to run around a bit to buy time before he can figure out which way to chuck it. If he's able to make his escape, it's a big play. If not, they get the sack and we're punting.

Bluedust
01-08-2010, 08:21 AM
Any genius knows whenever something goes wrong just to fire everyone, that's GMing 101 at CCAC.

GoSlash27
01-08-2010, 08:43 AM
What are the benefits of playing with an empty backfield?

I can see that you get an extra receiving target, which of course puts more pressure on your opponent's secondary - not just because it's an extra man to cover, but also means they have to go deeper into their depth chart to find someone do it.

The way I see it, the offense sets the tempo and the defense adjusts accordingly. Arians decided that the spread maximizes the productivity of our franchise quarterback and his stud receivers. Can't really fault him for that, but there are down sides to that route also (which is why so many here are complaining).
As you point out, a spread offense compels the defense to go nickel, which puts their second string DBs on the field and forces them to make plays. As a side benefit, any blitzers must telegraph their intentions from further away, making it more difficult to bring pressure.

But isn't the negative that they can take out anything and everything designed to protect against the run? Doesn't that free up a huge amount of personnel resource? And massively reduce their decision/reaction time?
Not as much as you might think. If you can sell the pass, it is possible to set up running plays (of sorts) from an empty back field. The defense is still forced to maintain some presence in the box to counter this. That's why defenses don't typically show dime, even against a 5 wide shotgun when the first down is under 15 yards.

Personally not a fan of this approach, but that's been beaten to death. This is the best answer I can give you without any snark. Hope it helps.
-Slashy
PS you're not an idiot. :drink:

steelax04
01-08-2010, 08:59 AM
I think he was asking a serious and honest question from his knowledge of the game. It's just unfortunate that people have to twist it into an Arians thing...

revefsreleets
01-08-2010, 09:56 AM
Are there any teams in the NFL NOT employing the empty backfield, at least on occasion?

Also, don't blame Arians, this is Ben. He says it right here himself...

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_591874.html

JACKSONVILLE -- Although he’s been battered and bruised in recent weeks, Ben Roethlisberger had no reservations whatsoever taking snaps in formations that featured "empty sets" and afforded no protection whatsoever for the Steelers’ quarterback beyond what his offensive line could provide.

"No, I was calling them," Roethlisberger said. "I like it."

Finally, here is an example of the empty set working (AGAINST us in this instance), and a breakdown of WHY it worked.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/sep/22/sports/chi-22-pompei-slo-mo-sep22

Play of the game in slo-mo Situation: Third-and-7 on the Pittsburgh 7, Steelers leading 14-7 with 6 minutes, 25 seconds left in the game.

Result: A 7-yard, game-tying touchdown pass from Jay Cutler to Johnny Knox.

The tape shows: The Bears come out in a one-back, three-receiver set, and running back Matt Forte motions into the slot, giving them an empty backfield.

The formation forces the Steelers to change their coverage from zone to man-to-man, and that leaves safety Tyrone Carter in man-to-man coverage against Knox – a mismatch.

The Steelers have a blitz call on and overload the right side of the offense. Cornerback William Gay, who with the correct call would have been covering Knox, is blitzing. And so is inside linebacker Lawrence Timmons. Both come unblocked as the Bears have a protection breakdown with three men blocking five.

Knox runs an in route from the right side of the formation, and Cutler gets the ball off just as Timmons hits him . Knox makes the catch in front of Carter in the end zone.

solardave
01-08-2010, 10:07 AM
lol, welcome to the board, but your first post is a can of worms. Welcome to the fire!

Yeah welcome. There is no such thing as a stupid question. Just Stupid coaches.:flap:

solardave
01-08-2010, 10:08 AM
Oh, you didn't know? There's a HUGE benefit to it. We can get two 1,000 yard receivers, a 4,000 yard passer, and a (barely if you ask me) 1,000 yard rusher. Isn't that what the new Steelers football is about?

We can't even score points, but to hell with that! We'd rather drive down the field 80 yards just to score 3 points. But hey, as long as Ben and Mike Wallace hook up for a 50 yard bomb, we don't need points, we got stats and records!!!

I mean, isn't it smart to call an empty backfield on 3rd and goal? We have a stud running back who's proven himself 95% of the time when given the chance, but screw that! We want to increase Ben's TD total, only to in turn put Jeff Reed on the field and leave 4 points on the board.

You would think a pedestrian like Defense and Special Teams would factor in to smarter Offensive calling, but I'm not allowed to say that because, for whatever reason, some people are sensitive to that matter.

*sigh* Oh well, though. We'll just bring the same guy back and then sit and wonder next year why we're in the same spot. At least we'll continue to break TEAM records and have some of the best stats in the league, with no hardware to show for it...

POINTS? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKIN' POINTS!!!

LamarrWoodleysFade
01-08-2010, 10:43 AM
I think he was asking a serious and honest question from his knowledge of the game. It's just unfortunate that people have to twist it into an Arians thing...

That's because it is an Arians thing. That's what he likes to run 90% of the time, on any down, regardless of the situation.

And of course Ben like it, why wouldn't he like it? That's what being a QUARTERBACK is all about. You know, THROWING the football.

...And when you post something that works for ANOTHER team with a DIFFERENT type of QB, that's not really helping your case. Just sayin'...

steelax04
01-08-2010, 11:18 AM
That's because it is an Arians thing. That's what he likes to run 90% of the time, on any down, regardless of the situation.

And of course Ben like it, why wouldn't he like it? That's what being a QUARTERBACK is all about. You know, THROWING the football.

...And when you post something that works for ANOTHER team with a DIFFERENT type of QB, that's not really helping your case. Just sayin'...

The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was asking more along the lines of X's and O's (like GoSlash and Revs tried to do) vs. Ben loves it so Arians loves it and etc, etc, etc. that he can find in the other 20 or so threads already covering that topic.

Revs was just posting some relevant information as to the breakdown of the empty set and how it functioned on that play... just sayin'...

Bus36RollsUrlacher
01-08-2010, 11:22 AM
Why do some people act like the 5-wide thing is something new? We were running that back in the mid-90's with Neil O' Donnell ( I just brike my oath to never mention that name again). Can I just confess and say 12 "Hail Steelers and 6 Super Bowl Rings" and then things will be okay?

The 5-wide does give you potential for mismatches. You can bring in the personnel, which in that case the defense can substitute to try to match it, or you can do it with the people you have on the field and try to get a LB on a receiver or running back. Some people defensively, as soon as they see it will blitz you to no end because you can outnumber the blockers. Good QB/Receiver hot reads can bail you out, but if the routes are covered, look out. QB better get rid of it, become a runner, or take the sack.

revefsreleets
01-08-2010, 11:26 AM
The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was asking more along the lines of X's and O's (like GoSlash and Revs tried to do) vs. Ben loves it so Arians loves it and etc, etc, etc. that he can find in the other 20 or so threads already covering that topic.

Revs was just posting some relevant information as to the breakdown of the empty set and how it functioned on that play... just sayin'...


No no no!

Posting stats and facts, data and analysis will get you called names like "guru", and widely mocked. Don't dare be right if you disagree with certain factions of the board.

Speculation! Rumors! Uninformed opinion! These are what drive the message board...and if you don't like it, perhaps you, too, can be mocked for actually knowing what the eff you're talking about....

LamarrWoodleysFade
01-08-2010, 11:32 AM
The OP can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he was asking more along the lines of X's and O's (like GoSlash and Revs tried to do) vs. Ben loves it so Arians loves it and etc, etc, etc. that he can find in the other 20 or so threads already covering that topic.

Revs was just posting some relevant information as to the breakdown of the empty set and how it functioned on that play... just sayin'...

Yea, I got all of that. I was just pointing out how, IMO, it doesn't always work with Ben and his style of play, dispute what the stats say...

stb_steeler
01-08-2010, 11:44 AM
Any genius knows whenever something goes wrong just to fire everyone, that's GMing 101 at CCAC.

Hell ya, call in the National Guard to replace them... We'll call it the replacements.:doh:

LamarrWoodleysFade
01-08-2010, 11:47 AM
No no no!

Posting stats and facts, data and analysis will get you called names like "guru", and widely mocked. Don't dare be right if you disagree with certain factions of the board.

Speculation! Rumors! Uninformed opinion! These are what drive the message board...and if you don't like it, perhaps you, too, can be mocked for actually knowing what the eff you're talking about....

Cool, you know what you're talking about, so do I. But some of you, again, want to post stats and use that some sort of "proof" that things work when clearly it doesn't, or didn't work enough. I don't give a shit about the numbers, I'm not a numbers guy. I care about results, period. And the RESULTS this season, obviously, aren't good.

revefsreleets
01-08-2010, 11:55 AM
Cool, you know what you're talking about, so do I. But some of you, again, want to post stats and use that some sort of "proof" that things work when clearly it doesn't, or didn't work enough. I don't give a shit about the numbers, I'm not a numbers guy. I care about results, period. And the RESULTS this season, obviously, aren't good.


Stats are only allowed on this board if they support the prevailing argument. It's a selective and relative thing....the same people who are stating that "stats don't mean shit" are the same ones turning around and using DIFFERENT stats against Arians.

It's hypocritical.

LamarrWoodleysFade
01-08-2010, 12:14 PM
Stats are only allowed on this board if they support the prevailing argument. It's a selective and relative thing....the same people who are stating that "stats don't mean shit" are the same ones turning around and using DIFFERENT stats against Arians.

It's hypocritical.

It is hypocritical, very hypocritical, so I understand where you're coming from. Like you said, it's all relative, which is why I couldn't care less about them. Much of football today, and every other sport for that matter, is too much about the numbers.

To be honest with you, I would not have know how many TD's Ben threw this season if CBS didn't put the graphic on televison. That's how much I'm NOT into them.

I'm just going off what I see on the field on Sundays, that's it...

tat2
01-08-2010, 12:16 PM
i coach high school football (i know it's only high school) and i love when teams go empty against us! we are gonna send more defenders than they can block EVERY time. no we can't cover everything but we are going to hit the qb ALOT. i guess it's a trade off, if you don't mind your qb getting hit, line up empty.

revefsreleets
01-08-2010, 12:32 PM
i coach high school football (i know it's only high school) and i love when teams go empty against us! we are gonna send more defenders than they can block EVERY time. no we can't cover everything but we are going to hit the qb ALOT. i guess it's a trade off, if you don't mind your qb getting hit, line up empty.

Did you love the play I pointed out earlier, the one where Chicago went empty against us and tied the game?

Teams use it because it works.

dcsteel5804
01-08-2010, 12:48 PM
And of course Ben like it, why wouldn't he like it? That's what being a QUARTERBACK is all about. You know, THROWING the football.

Well I wander what Ben likes more, throwing the football for 4000 yards and not making the playoffs, or throwing for just over 3000 and winning a Superbowl, seems to be a no-brainer to me.

MACH1
01-08-2010, 12:55 PM
are you suggesting that not keeping the defense guessing is a bad strategy ??? :wtf:
well mister... FOR THE 100TH TIME...arians is a paid professional coach and your just a fan, so how dare you question his methods ...:mad: ...what part of 4000 yard passer and two 1000 yard receivers do you not understand ??? :banging:


guru will be so proud of me....:applaudit:

It also included a career best of 50 sacks.

But as pointed out it was either all Ben's fault or the D's fault.

Dino 6 Rings
01-08-2010, 12:59 PM
Its really a good question. what are the benefits of the "empty set"

you already seemed to know the answer, the extra receiver, forces the defense to use a man to man set, or give up the underneath stuff while protecting over the top. And yes, it does require quick reads and great blocking by the Oline. The most receivers you can have run patterns on any down is 5. So if the D only sends 4 guys, there are 5 blocking 4, which usually means that even if there are 7 guys in coverage, the QB can still have the time to wait for someone to get open. However, when the D overloads, or comes with a blitz sending 5 guys or even 6, then the QB must react super fast, and also, catch the guy in the "mismatch" on defense like the LB covering the TE or the tallest receiver. Or the DE that drops into the flat coverage on the fast WR. But that has to be done really fast. Also, if the D only sends 4, the QB can more easily scramble out of the pocket, run or at least buy more time, get a corner to bite up on the run and make a play.

The Browns really had a great defense against the Empty Set this year on us in Game 2. Their 4 Down linemen were able to get pressure and they had a man/zone defense that was very difficult to pass against. They basically designed a defense for one game to stop the Steelers Empty Set passing offense and it worked. Not every play, but over the coarse of the game, that defense stuffed our passing game.

its that way with any formation. I formation, will draw more guys into the box to stuff the run. Single Back, allows for the Back to stay in to block the extra rusher, or sneak out into the flat for a dump off pass, the wishbone, brings the corners up tight, the Pro Set stacks the linebackers inside the box really close and may even draw the safety down...every formation and set has its advantages and its weaknesses.

There are some really great articles out there on Offense Schemes as well as the Defenses that work or don't work agains them.

start here at this Wiki Page, and begin reading. Then if you want more, just google the formation, or coach that designed the formation or scheme you are wondering about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_football_strategy

revefsreleets
01-08-2010, 01:02 PM
MOP is becoming quite premenstrual...

Notice the use of stats to prove how awful BA is, though? The stats count when the braint....I mean, certain factions of the board use them, but don't when others employ them. I think I'm starting to LIKE being called the guru....

steelreserve
01-08-2010, 01:32 PM
Finally, here is an example of the empty set working (AGAINST us in this instance), and a breakdown of WHY it worked.
...

The tape shows: The Bears come out in a one-back, three-receiver set, and running back Matt Forte motions into the slot, giving them an empty backfield.

The formation forces the Steelers to change their coverage from zone to man-to-man, and that leaves safety Tyrone Carter in man-to-man coverage against Knox – a mismatch.


Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think your safety covering the third receiver is a mismatch. Who else is going to cover him? A linebacker? Or should we have had Gay covering him, and then we have to put a safety on the fist or second receiver for an even bigger mismatch?

Basically, the only way this is a mismatch is if they're saying we screwed up by not coming out in the nickel, or if they're saying that Carter just sucks too much to cover anyone at all. In which case, we've got other problems. Bottom line is that the Bears executed like they had to on that play and we didn't.

Yeah, I get that it messed up our original zone and was disruptive, but so are a lot of things. Pretty much the entire game is about making adjustments and snap decisions. If you can't do that, you're in trouble.

Personally, my problem with the way we use the empty backfield was the same as with a lot of our playcalling on both sides of the ball. Not THAT we were using it, but the way we were using it. We didn't really fool anyone with an empty set or use it to create advantages; we just lined up and tried to beat people straight-up.

Just like with our defense: In our Super Bowl years, the LBs ans DBs have been jumpy and all over the line of scrimmage keeping people guessing ... in 2006 and 2009, we just lined up, showed what defense we were going to play, and let them snap the ball. The difference between our great seasons and seasons like this one is that in the great ones, we've been innovative and aggressive on at least one side of the ball (both sides in 2005, which probably let us reach a little more above our talent level) and in the 8-8 or 9-7 years, we're plain vanilla on both sides. I honestly think this team was the most talented of any we've had in the past several seasons, but this happened because we basically coasted through the year.

Rotorhead
01-08-2010, 02:22 PM
It is really interesting how some people on this board think they know everything and therefore must talk down to everyone else like they know nothing of football. I am sorry, but if you were such an expert on football you would be playing or coaching pro-ball . . . but your not. It makes for poor arguments when every thread turns into a pissing contest instead of a discussion on the merits of football, our lack of execution/play calling this season and what we think (all of us, not just the so call experts) we should do to improve. There will always be people who dont like players or coaches, and people that do, get over yourselves already. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or disliking people, so be it, it is human nature.
Getting off the soap box now, but really getting tired of the constant war between the "braintrust" and the "guru's" which don't contribute at all to any conversation.

Rotorhead
01-08-2010, 02:26 PM
To the OP, you have the idea, and the example given shows how the empty backfield works. I honestly think our receivers dont run enough short routes in that formation, which causes it to fail. There isnt enough time for the play to develop with a rush and our Oline if the "hot" receiver doesnt read the play right or doesnt get open the #2 is not i position as Ben is getting sacked or running around playing yard ball.

steelreserve
01-08-2010, 02:57 PM
It is really interesting how some people on this board think they know everything and therefore must talk down to everyone else like they know nothing of football. I am sorry, but if you were such an expert on football you would be playing or coaching pro-ball . . . but your not. It makes for poor arguments when every thread turns into a pissing contest instead of a discussion on the merits of football, our lack of execution/play calling this season and what we think (all of us, not just the so call experts) we should do to improve. There will always be people who dont like players or coaches, and people that do, get over yourselves already. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or disliking people, so be it, it is human nature.
Getting off the soap box now, but really getting tired of the constant war between the "braintrust" and the "guru's" which don't contribute at all to any conversation.

Believe me, I've been barking up that tree for the better part of a year. All that happens is that the condescending people come back and insist that being condescending instead of talking about football doesn't ruin the discussion, it just deters the stupid people. Although actually, it does ruin the discussion and it doesn't deter anything.

X-Terminator
01-08-2010, 07:07 PM
It is really interesting how some people on this board think they know everything and therefore must talk down to everyone else like they know nothing of football. I am sorry, but if you were such an expert on football you would be playing or coaching pro-ball . . . but your not. It makes for poor arguments when every thread turns into a pissing contest instead of a discussion on the merits of football, our lack of execution/play calling this season and what we think (all of us, not just the so call experts) we should do to improve. There will always be people who dont like players or coaches, and people that do, get over yourselves already. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or disliking people, so be it, it is human nature.
Getting off the soap box now, but really getting tired of the constant war between the "braintrust" and the "guru's" which don't contribute at all to any conversation.

The thing is, it hasn't always been this way. Everything was fine up until 2 years ago when we started getting an influx of narrow-minded and cynical people who only showed up here to do nothing other than bitch and moan and generally be a negative-nanny pain in the effing butt each and every day. And we've kept attracting them in droves over those past 2 years. When those people start using more common sense when discussing football rather than say "OMG FYUR EVEYBODDDEEEE!!!!" if the Steelers lose a game or pin the blame for everything on one player, coach or unit, then things will improve and discussions won't constantly be ruined.

zulater
01-08-2010, 07:23 PM
Are there any teams in the NFL NOT employing the empty backfield, at least on occasion?
Also, don't blame Arians, this is Ben. He says it right here himself...

http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_591874.html

JACKSONVILLE -- Although he’s been battered and bruised in recent weeks, Ben Roethlisberger had no reservations whatsoever taking snaps in formations that featured "empty sets" and afforded no protection whatsoever for the Steelers’ quarterback beyond what his offensive line could provide.

"No, I was calling them," Roethlisberger said. "I like it."

Finally, here is an example of the empty set working (AGAINST us in this instance), and a breakdown of WHY it worked.

http://archives.chicagotribune.com/2009/sep/22/sports/chi-22-pompei-slo-mo-sep22

Play of the game in slo-mo Situation: Third-and-7 on the Pittsburgh 7, Steelers leading 14-7 with 6 minutes, 25 seconds left in the game.

Result: A 7-yard, game-tying touchdown pass from Jay Cutler to Johnny Knox.

The tape shows: The Bears come out in a one-back, three-receiver set, and running back Matt Forte motions into the slot, giving them an empty backfield.

The formation forces the Steelers to change their coverage from zone to man-to-man, and that leaves safety Tyrone Carter in man-to-man coverage against Knox – a mismatch.

The Steelers have a blitz call on and overload the right side of the offense. Cornerback William Gay, who with the correct call would have been covering Knox, is blitzing. And so is inside linebacker Lawrence Timmons. Both come unblocked as the Bears have a protection breakdown with three men blocking five.

Knox runs an in route from the right side of the formation, and Cutler gets the ball off just as Timmons hits him . Knox makes the catch in front of Carter in the end zone.

I have no problem with empty back sets. Just don't use them on first and goal from the 9 when game time isn't an issue or on 3rd and short situations on wind blown wintry nights in Cleveland. :banging:

You have one of the best qb's in the game when it comes to play action passes. First and goal, third and short perfect situations for play action, no? Well kinda hard to sell it with no back behind you isn't it? :doh:

Look I don't care, you can pass or run on any of those situations, just don't telegraph your intentions when you don't have to. You make the defenses job entirely too easy when they know what you're up to.

7SteelGal43
01-08-2010, 07:47 PM
are you suggesting that not keeping the defense guessing is a bad strategy ??? :wtf:
well mister... FOR THE 100TH TIME...arians is a paid professional coach and your just a fan, so how dare you question his methods ...:mad: ...what part of 4000 yard passer and two 1000 yard receivers do you not understand ??? :banging:


guru will be so proud of me....:applaudit:

:chuckle::toofunny::rofl:

Prok
01-08-2010, 07:58 PM
Oh, you didn't know? There's a HUGE benefit to it. We can get two 1,000 yard receivers, a 4,000 yard passer, and a (barely if you ask me) 1,000 yard rusher. Isn't that what the new Steelers football is about?

We can't even score points, but to hell with that! We'd rather drive down the field 80 yards just to score 3 points. But hey, as long as Ben and Mike Wallace hook up for a 50 yard bomb, we don't need points, we got stats and records!!!

I mean, isn't it smart to call an empty backfield on 3rd and goal? We have a stud running back who's proven himself 95% of the time when given the chance, but screw that! We want to increase Ben's TD total, only to in turn put Jeff Reed on the field and leave 4 points on the board.

You would think a pedestrian like Defense and Special Teams would factor in to smarter Offensive calling, but I'm not allowed to say that because, for whatever reason, some people are sensitive to that matter.

*sigh* Oh well, though. We'll just bring the same guy back and then sit and wonder next year why we're in the same spot. At least we'll continue to break TEAM records and have some of the best stats in the league, with no hardware to show for it...

Haven't been here much but that's gotta be one of the best posts i've ever read here. Pretty much sums up my feelings on Brucey too !

markymarc
01-09-2010, 12:10 PM
Oh, you didn't know? There's a HUGE benefit to it. We can get two 1,000 yard receivers, a 4,000 yard passer, and a (barely if you ask me) 1,000 yard rusher. Isn't that what the new Steelers football is about?

We can't even score points, but to hell with that! We'd rather drive down the field 80 yards just to score 3 points. But hey, as long as Ben and Mike Wallace hook up for a 50 yard bomb, we don't need points, we got stats and records!!!

I mean, isn't it smart to call an empty backfield on 3rd and goal? We have a stud running back who's proven himself 95% of the time when given the chance, but screw that! We want to increase Ben's TD total, only to in turn put Jeff Reed on the field and leave 4 points on the board.

You would think a pedestrian like Defense and Special Teams would factor in to smarter Offensive calling, but I'm not allowed to say that because, for whatever reason, some people are sensitive to that matter.

*sigh* Oh well, though. We'll just bring the same guy back and then sit and wonder next year why we're in the same spot. At least we'll continue to break TEAM records and have some of the best stats in the league, with no hardware to show for it...

Very well stated. Kudos to you!

revefsreleets
01-11-2010, 05:35 PM
It is really interesting how some people on this board think they know everything and therefore must talk down to everyone else like they know nothing of football. I am sorry, but if you were such an expert on football you would be playing or coaching pro-ball . . . but your not. It makes for poor arguments when every thread turns into a pissing contest instead of a discussion on the merits of football, our lack of execution/play calling this season and what we think (all of us, not just the so call experts) we should do to improve. There will always be people who dont like players or coaches, and people that do, get over yourselves already. Everyone has their own reasons for liking or disliking people, so be it, it is human nature.
Getting off the soap box now, but really getting tired of the constant war between the "braintrust" and the "guru's" which don't contribute at all to any conversation.

This is easy.

I defer to the coaches and FO, and I defend them BECAUSE they are true experts.

ALL of us here are not.

The "braintrust" constantly and consistently suggest that they know better than the real and true professionals do. They call me "the guru" for disagreeing with them.

Only problem is, I'm more right then wrong, and I also seem to fall on the same side of these things as the coaches and FO, and NOT RETROactively. That bothers people and I do nothing to discourage that...in fact, I fan the flames of that, and I readily admit it.

If you want to expose yourself as a know-it-all who knows better than the staff of the best franchise in all of sports, have at it...but be prepared to be called out when you spew nonsensical bullshit, ESPECIALLY when it runs counter to what the actual people calling the shots end up doing.

Acerinox
01-12-2010, 01:41 AM
Thanks for everything you guys. A really great mix of X and O explanation and some fruity stuff on the side besides!
And Dino - that link you posted gives me something to do in the long months without football!

MasterOfPuppets
01-12-2010, 02:53 AM
This is easy.

I defer to the coaches and FO, and I defend them BECAUSE they are true experts.

ALL of us here are not.

The "braintrust" constantly and consistently suggest that they know better than the real and true professionals do. They call me "the guru" for disagreeing with them.

Only problem is, I'm more right then wrong, and I also seem to fall on the same side of these things as the coaches and FO, and NOT RETROactively. That bothers people and I do nothing to discourage that...in fact, I fan the flames of that, and I readily admit it.

.
shouldn't you be in the locker room telling us how the country should be run ? you know...since your a proffessional politician an all ....:popcorn:

and that comment about how your right more often than wrong is just :rofl:
don't you have a hat you should be chowin down on ? or are you waiting to snack on it during cowhers press conference when they introduce him as clevlands new coach ?.... :toofunny:

revefsreleets
01-12-2010, 09:54 AM
shouldn't you be in the locker room telling us how the country should be run ? you know...since your a proffessional politician an all ....:popcorn:

and that comment about how your right more often than wrong is just :rofl:
don't you have a hat you should be chowin down on ? or are you waiting to snack on it during cowhers press conference when they introduce him as clevlands new coach ?.... :toofunny:

It's easy to spot the times when I'm wrong because I'm not shy about prognosticating, and a lot of times I purposefully go way over the top (like saying we were going to trade Parker on draft day), because safe and easy predictions are no fun. But this is more about sour grapes than anything else. I call people out, they are sensitive, and they don't like having it pointed out that they are wrong, so they go in attack mode. Tony is te very worst on the whole board. He's a CLASSIC reflector/defector, and so predictable it's almost like clockwork...but he's gotten boring so I put him on ignore and look to other people to keep me entertained.

Since I don't really give a shit anyways, and consider this just another form of things that amuse and entertain me, I'm more than happy to let people pile on...I'm NOT sensitive and I can handle it. As I said, it amuses me when you all get your collective skirts up in a bunch and bleed all over your feminine napkins...and the more you whine and cry, the more fun I have...

This is just like what Mark Madden does, and in a different way, Chad Johnson.

HometownGal
01-12-2010, 10:09 AM
The thing is, it hasn't always been this way. Everything was fine up until 2 years ago when we started getting an influx of narrow-minded and cynical people who only showed up here to do nothing other than bitch and moan and generally be a negative-nanny pain in the effing butt each and every day. And we've kept attracting them in droves over those past 2 years. When those people start using more common sense when discussing football rather than say "OMG FYUR EVEYBODDDEEEE!!!!" if the Steelers lose a game or pin the blame for everything on one player, coach or unit, then things will improve and discussions won't constantly be ruined.

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Sad but true. :shake02:

What I think I find the most disturbing is the follower mentality that has developed around here over the last 3-4 months or so. With a few people - their opinions are gospel no matter how off the wall or insensitive those opinions are and to watch the sheeple slobber over their every word should be amusing, but it isn't. It's actually sad. This forum used to be a board of opinions where everyone's thoughts were respected (for the most part) and debate was challenging and fun, but is rapidly turning into an e-worship altar where popularity overrides respect for others' opinions and simple common sense. :shake01:

revefsreleets
01-12-2010, 10:19 AM
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Sad but true. :shake02:

What I think I find the most disturbing is the follower mentality that has developed around here over the last 3-4 months or so. With a few people - their opinions are gospel no matter how off the wall or insensitive those opinions are and to watch the sheeple slobber over their every word should be amusing, but it isn't. It's actually sad. This forum used to be a board of opinions where everyone's thoughts were respected (for the most part) and debate was challenging and fun, but is rapidly turning into an e-worship altar where popularity overrides respect for others' opinions and simple common sense. :shake01:

That has a lot to do with my change in attitude recently...this place has an AWFUL lot of new (and some old ones, too) super douchey posters in it, and I'm more than willing to fight fire with fire...

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 10:37 AM
Yea, I got all of that. I was just pointing out how, IMO, it doesn't always work with Ben and his style of play, dispute what the stats say...

Actually, according to this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5536

The more receivers Ben gets on the field, the worse his rating gets. Of course, some of that is due to the fact that the Steelers brought out four receivers on 3rd and long a lot, but I hope they realize that, if you have a back who's good catching the ball out of the backfield, you can keep the back in there on those downs.

steelreserve
01-12-2010, 12:35 PM
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Sad but true. :shake02:

What I think I find the most disturbing is the follower mentality that has developed around here over the last 3-4 months or so. With a few people - their opinions are gospel no matter how off the wall or insensitive those opinions are and to watch the sheeple slobber over their every word should be amusing, but it isn't. It's actually sad. This forum used to be a board of opinions where everyone's thoughts were respected (for the most part) and debate was challenging and fun, but is rapidly turning into an e-worship altar where popularity overrides respect for others' opinions and simple common sense. :shake01:

Really? Seems more to me like after winning the Super Bowl, it became an us-versus-them kind of thing where most people were speculating, criticizing, theorizing about what was working and what wasn't -- you know, doing the kinds of things that fans do -- and another group was saying "OMG SUPER BOWL!!! HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE ANYTHING THE TEAM IS DOING?? WE WON THE SUPER BOWL!!!!"

Not so much a popularity contest; more like a certain group banded into a tightly-formed phalanx, based on the idea that they were smarter than everyone else because the team was successful and they supported what the team was doing. Because that obviously takes a rocket scientist.

Like, for them, behaving like a fan normally does was somehow beneath us -- oh no, the Steelers are Special, and Steelers fans have a duty to be Reverent and Respectful and Thankful for every minute of the season, good or bad, because being a fan of the best franchise in football is a Privilege and shouldn't be taken lightly, and we can't Complain, because that makes us no better than Lions fans.

I mean, seriously? Give me a break.

Sometimes I think winning the Super Bowl was the most divisive thing that could've happened on this message board. Maybe having a shitty season like this one is exactly the dose of STFU that certain people need to come down off their high horse. I know I'll sure the hell be relieved when things are back to normal.

oh yeah, almost forgot,

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f370/capt_taco/parker-sucks-sign-1.jpg

zulater
01-12-2010, 12:58 PM
Actually, according to this:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5536

The more receivers Ben gets on the field, the worse his rating gets. Of course, some of that is due to the fact that the Steelers brought out four receivers on 3rd and long a lot, but I hope they realize that, if you have a back who's good catching the ball out of the backfield, you can keep the back in there on those downs.

Good point.

Another thing we see there is that Ben is a much more effecient qb playing tied or from behind than with the lead.




Wonder what the explanation of that is? :noidea:

WH
01-12-2010, 01:10 PM
Good point.

Another thing we see there is that Ben is a much more effecient qb playing tied or from behind than with the lead.




Wonder what the explanation of that is? :noidea:
I don't have a link for my opinion, but, it could be a lack of focus. Maybe on Ben's part, or the rest of the offense. But the Offense, both running game and passing game seems to stall out when the Steelers have a 2 score lead.

StainlessStill
01-12-2010, 01:50 PM
So everyone wants to look like the world's biggest expert on tactics and stuff.
But there's something I can't work out and I thought I'd embarrass myself by asking it here. Also it contributes to the Arians debate which (as I understand it) is MANDATORY for every thread on this board.

What are the benefits of playing with an empty backfield?

I can see that you get an extra receiving target, which of course puts more pressure on your opponent's secondary - not just because it's an extra man to cover, but also means they have to go deeper into their depth chart to find someone do it.

But isn't the negative that they can take out anything and everything designed to protect against the run? Doesn't that free up a huge amount of personnel resource? And massively reduce their decision/reaction time?

Is it not ONLY useful for sets like 3rd and long when your opponent ALREADY knows you won't run?

Thanks for anyone kind enough to explain this to an idiot.

The empty set is obviously a package that targets mis- matches. If you come out in a 5 receiver set, the quarterback is allowed to read and know what defense the defense is showing and try to target a mis match, whether it be an outside linebacker on a reciever or a middle linebacker on a back, depending on what personal you want to use.

It's the quarterbacks responsibility to read the defense and know where the pressure might be coming from because he has many options to look at to spread it around the field. If there is a blitz or a guy free, he must target it immediately and go to the area of the field of either the mis match, or the open area where that blitz might be occupying. The o-line must target who to block also and not let anyone free because the QB needs time to look down field at many spots.

Usually, if a defense responds with zone then it's the receivers job to find the open zone as quickly as possibly because the balls coming. It's all about preparation but the empty set more times than none targets a mis match but it must be known what the defense is giving you because they are obviously coming and have no threat at running back and the safeties and linebackers can play their spots respectively.

zulater
01-12-2010, 01:57 PM
I don't have a link for my opinion, but, it could be a lack of focus. Maybe on Ben's part, or the rest of the offense. But the Offense, both running game and passing game seems to stall out when the Steelers have a 2 score lead.

When I get more time I'm goin to go through the league and see if that's the norm or not? My guess is that most qb's would be less effecient passers playing from behind or tied. You figure if you're behind the pass rush is going to stronger generally speaking.

But getting back to Ben. I think the most obvious answer to why he is a much more proficient passer when behind or tied is because that's when he gets to call the plays.

Oops, did I just inadverdently bash BA? :doh: Sorry. :noidea:

StainlessStill
01-12-2010, 02:00 PM
When I get more time I'm goin to go through the league and see if that's the norm or not? My guess is that most qb's would be less effecient passers playing from behind or tied. You figure if you're behind the pass rush is going to stronger generally speaking.

But getting back to Ben. I think the most obvious answer to why he is a much more proficient passer when behind or tied is because that's when he gets to call the plays.

Oops, did I just inadverdently bash BA? :doh: Sorry. :noidea:

Not only that, but Ben uses the no huddle. That means the defense has to keep the same personal on the field and stay in the package that is called. Ben reads the defense accordingly, and calls the play that works against the D, so the D is faced to play on it's heels, not to mention getting worn down with the same guys out there. Having to run step for step with guys like Holmes, Ward, and Wallace, that could put a defense in a bad place, let alone going after a 6'5, 240 pound HULK of a QB. Ben has the keys and is reading defense's much, much better.

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 02:03 PM
When I get more time I'm goin to go through the league and see if that's the norm or not? My guess is that most qb's would be less effecient passers playing from behind or tied. You figure if you're behind the pass rush is going to stronger generally speaking.

But getting back to Ben. I think the most obvious answer to why he is a much more proficient passer when behind or tied is because that's when he gets to call the plays.

Oops, did I just inadverdently bash BA? :doh: Sorry. :noidea:

Here ya go, Zu

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5536

Looks like Ben had his worst rating when we were ahead. I'm willing to bet that the Steelers were at their offensive worst when they were ahead. Go figure. Arians bashing is welcome as a response to this.

zulater
01-12-2010, 02:26 PM
Here ya go, Zu

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/players/splits?playerId=5536

Looks like Ben had his worst rating when we were ahead. I'm willing to bet that the Steelers were at their offensive worst when they were ahead. Go figure. Arians bashing is welcome as a response to this.

You would think with the lead your play selection would be more varied and less predicatable and you'd be at your most effecient?

I remember quite a few games when the Steelers offense opened up like a house on fire and you thought they'd put at least 30 on the board. But somehow you'd look up at the end of the game and you'd be in the high teens- low twenties. :noidea:

DoubleYoi
01-12-2010, 03:14 PM
*sigh* Oh well, though. We'll just bring the same guy back and then sit and wonder next year why we're in the same spot. At least we'll continue to break TEAM records and have some of the best stats in the league, with no hardware to show for it...

Looks like a Lombardi Trophy means nothing to some people. Ben and Santonio didn't hook up on that magical play in Tampa by pure luck.

HometownGal
01-12-2010, 03:18 PM
Really? Seems more to me like after winning the Super Bowl, it became an us-versus-them kind of thing where most people were speculating, criticizing, theorizing about what was working and what wasn't -- you know, doing the kinds of things that fans do -- and another group was saying "OMG SUPER BOWL!!! HOW DARE YOU CRITICIZE ANYTHING THE TEAM IS DOING?? WE WON THE SUPER BOWL!!!!"

Not so much a popularity contest; more like a certain group banded into a tightly-formed phalanx, based on the idea that they were smarter than everyone else because the team was successful and they supported what the team was doing. Because that obviously takes a rocket scientist.

Like, for them, behaving like a fan normally does was somehow beneath us -- oh no, the Steelers are Special, and Steelers fans have a duty to be Reverent and Respectful and Thankful for every minute of the season, good or bad, because being a fan of the best franchise in football is a Privilege and shouldn't be taken lightly, and we can't Complain, because that makes us no better than Lions fans.

I mean, seriously? Give me a break.

Sometimes I think winning the Super Bowl was the most divisive thing that could've happened on this message board. Maybe having a shitty season like this one is exactly the dose of STFU that certain people need to come down off their high horse. I know I'll sure the hell be relieved when things are back to normal.

oh yeah, almost forgot,

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f370/capt_taco/parker-sucks-sign-1.jpg

Personally, I don't and have never had a problem with constructive criticism but unfortunately around here - most of the criticism is destructive - even after the Steelers won the last two Super Bowls. If a fan(s) have nothing better to do after a Super Bowl winning season than dissect the entire team and look at its guts under a microscope, I really think their life's priorities are a little screwed up.

P.S. I don't want to have to tell you about the "F" bombs again, OK? :banging:

steelreserve
01-12-2010, 04:47 PM
P.S. I don't want to have to tell you about the "F" bombs again, OK? :banging:

You can't even type it with asterisks? When did this start?

WH
01-12-2010, 04:53 PM
You can't even type it with asterisks? When did this start?

Just blame Canada

steelreserve
01-12-2010, 04:59 PM
Just blame Canada

Personally, I blame Bush.

WH
01-12-2010, 05:22 PM
Personally, I blame Bush.

Be careful of the NeoCon mob that is coming towards your house.

steelreserve
01-12-2010, 05:40 PM
Be careful of the NeoCon mob that is coming towards your house.

That's OK. I'll just scare them off with F-bombs. With asterisks for everything except the F.

thebus36idf
01-12-2010, 07:54 PM
Oh, you didn't know? There's a HUGE benefit to it. We can get two 1,000 yard receivers, a 4,000 yard passer, and a (barely if you ask me) 1,000 yard rusher. Isn't that what the new Steelers football is about?

We can't even score points, but to hell with that! We'd rather drive down the field 80 yards just to score 3 points. But hey, as long as Ben and Mike Wallace hook up for a 50 yard bomb, we don't need points, we got stats and records!!!

I mean, isn't it smart to call an empty backfield on 3rd and goal? We have a stud running back who's proven himself 95% of the time when given the chance, but screw that! We want to increase Ben's TD total, only to in turn put Jeff Reed on the field and leave 4 points on the board.

You would think a pedestrian like Defense and Special Teams would factor in to smarter Offensive calling, but I'm not allowed to say that because, for whatever reason, some people are sensitive to that matter.

*sigh* Oh well, though. We'll just bring the same guy back and then sit and wonder next year why we're in the same spot. At least we'll continue to break TEAM records and have some of the best stats in the league, with no hardware to show for it...

Agreed look where this strategy gets New Orleans who may well again may not go deep min the playoffs dispite all the flash

HometownGal
01-12-2010, 08:56 PM
You can't even type it with asterisks? When did this start?

It has always been that way. Look - I feel like a broken record. I don't make the rules - I'm just asked to enforce them. :drink:

HometownGal
01-12-2010, 09:00 PM
Looks like a Lombardi Trophy means nothing to some people. Ben and Santonio didn't hook up on that magical play in Tampa by pure luck.

What a truly ignorant thing to say. :shake02:

Would I like a Lombardi every single season? Sure I would, but in the common sense reality world, I know it is illogical, not to mention impossible.

steelreserve
01-12-2010, 10:31 PM
It has always been that way. Look - I feel like a broken record. I don't make the rules - I'm just asked to enforce them. :drink:

I'm not trying to be pissy or anything; I just honestly didn't know that.

I didn't shit damn dick ass know that.