PDA

View Full Version : Relative to other QB's, how much film study do you think Ben does?


vrabinec
01-12-2010, 08:58 AM
Most of us have seen the 2005 highlight film in which Ben comes to the sideline and Cowher asks him, "What did you read there?" and Ben replies, "Two deep." then Cowher tells him he's wrong and starts to explain it to him. You would think Ben would have progressed in his defense reading capacity. Yet he seems to make slower reads than a lot of the elite QB's do. He's obviously athletically gifted, and when he's asked to make quick throws or has tons of time to make his read (like whenever he buys time by scrambling) he does well, but stick him in there against a team that pressures him like Philly, and he doesn't seem to be able to make quick reads. it cost us 350 yards in sacks last year (that and o-line breakdowns), and I'm just wondering if you are fine with how he has progressed, or do you think, like I do, that he doesn't really do all that much film study and just relies on his ability to buy time? (sorry for the rambling question)

This is not a Ben bashing attempt, because I think he's an exceptional QB, I'm just wondering if he can be better. Obviously, nobody knows for sure, I'm looking for speculation here.

revefsreleets
01-12-2010, 09:30 AM
I'm sorry, but you can't throw at roughly 70% accuracy and throw more than twice as many TD's as INT's, not to mention having a 100 QBR in this league without being able to read a defense. This seems like just another excuse made up by people running out of excuses as to why Ben holds the ball too long.

If you watch him in the pocket, he is reading the defense. He goes through his reads as long as he has time, and then some. I just don't understand this obsession with ripping up every little thing about the team because they went 9-7 this year. He's just a gunslinger, and he'd rather hold the ball as long as possible rather than throw it away. That's really all there is to it.

Also, is there now some concern that Ben is NOT a student of the game? Because, again, you simply cannot put up numbers like he does without doing due diligence. I'm sure he watches as much film as any other top-flight NFL QB.

vasteeler
01-12-2010, 10:14 AM
I'm sorry, but you can't throw at roughly 70% accuracy and throw more than twice as many TD's as INT's, not to mention having a 100 QBR in this league without being able to read a defense. This seems like just another excuse made up by people running out of excuses as to why Ben holds the ball too long.

If you watch him in the pocket, he is reading the defense. He goes through his reads as long as he has time, and then some. I just don't understand this obsession with ripping up every little thing about the team because they went 9-7 this year. He's just a gunslinger, and he'd rather hold the ball as long as possible rather than throw it away. That's really all there is to it.

Also, is there now some concern that Ben is NOT a student of the game? Because, again, you simply cannot put up numbers like he does without doing due diligence. I'm sure he watches as much film as any other top-flight NFL QB.

very well said :thumbsup:

steelax04
01-12-2010, 10:32 AM
On that tip-toe TD by Wallace... Ben was on his what, 5th read?

Or maybe Wallace was his first read, but Ben forgot how to play QB. :chuckle:

OneForTheToe
01-12-2010, 11:12 AM
I happen to know for a fact that Ben studies hard. I was at a restaurant last year and I heard the people next to me whispering something. I looked up and they were pointing, so I turned and there was Ben and Larry Ziering having dinner two tables down from me. Both had their noses in what looked like a paperback book . I can only assume Ben was studying the blocking schemes of the o'line. He sure looked interested. Larry kept pointing and I think I heard him say, "look at those."

Blitz schemes? :noidea:

That's why I figured I wouldn't bother them.

What dedication.

JEFF4i
01-12-2010, 11:21 AM
:coffee:

How much does Ben study film? Enough.

He holds on to the ball for so long because that's Ben.

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 11:28 AM
I'm sorry, but you can't throw at roughly 70% accuracy and throw more than twice as many TD's as INT's, not to mention having a 100 QBR in this league without being able to read a defense. This seems like just another excuse made up by people running out of excuses as to why Ben holds the ball too long.

If you watch him in the pocket, he is reading the defense. He goes through his reads as long as he has time, and then some. I just don't understand this obsession with ripping up every little thing about the team because they went 9-7 this year. He's just a gunslinger, and he'd rather hold the ball as long as possible rather than throw it away. That's really all there is to it.

Also, is there now some concern that Ben is NOT a student of the game? Because, again, you simply cannot put up numbers like he does without doing due diligence. I'm sure he watches as much film as any other top-flight NFL QB.

If you're gonna quote stats, then you have to quote them all. You have to include getting sacked and giving up interceptions that get returned for TD's.

Since a QB that gets sacked loses a down and the yards that go with it, and one who gets picked off and the interception is returned for a TD gives up 6 points, I wondered which QB was most effective if the sacks were treated as an incomplete pass (which they essentially are) the sack yardage was subtracted from the QB's passing total, and a QB given up when he throws a pick 6 or gets stripped and it's returned for a TD is subtracted from his TD total. Here are the adjusted QB ratings:

1. Brees 104.6
2. Favre 99.1
3. Rivers 98.0
4. P. Manning 97.5
5. Schaub 93.6
6. Rodgers 92.5
7. Brady 92.3
8. Romo 90.6
9. Warner 87.7
10. Roethlisberger 87.2
11. E. Manning 86.4
12. McNabb 83.9
13. Flacco 81.3
14. Orton 81.2
15. Young 79.5
16. Campbell 77.1
17. Palmer 76.0
18. Garrard 75.6
19. A. Smith 74.9
20. Ryan 71.9
21. Cutler 70.9
22. Henne 68.9
23. Hasselbeck 68.3
24. Bulger 65.8
25. Cassell 62.7
26. Fitzpatrick 60.6
27. Quinn 59.9
28.Sanchez 55.4
29. Freeman 54.8
30. Stafford 52.1
31. Delhomme 51.3
32. Russell 44.7


Because, the 70% completion percentage would look better to some of us if it was 65% with fewer sacks given up and yards lost. I know that he goes through his progressions, but at that point it's simply a matter of looking for an open receiver. Where the problem lies is at the line as the QB is dropping back. The quicker he reads what defense is coming at him, the quicker he gets rid of the ball to the right receiver. So, either he's not reading the defense quickly, or our receivers aren't getting open, and I don't believe that our receivers aren't getting open.

And, by the way, IT'S NOT RIPPING THE TEAM! It's a matter of "how can Ben and this team improve"?

tony hipchest
01-12-2010, 11:29 AM
Both had their noses in what looked like a paperback book . I can only assume Ben was studying the blocking schemes of the o'line. He sure looked interested. Larry kept pointing and I think I heard him say, "look at those."

Blitz schemes? :noidea:

That's why I figured I wouldn't bother them.

What dedication.he was pointing at bewbs. they were reading a porn mag.

JEFF4i
01-12-2010, 11:34 AM
Vrabinec, you're argument is terribly specious, I'm afraid.

If you're going to quote statistics like sacksand their relativity to an incomplete pass, I thought you'd include two quite relative points.

1) Big Ben says himself that a sack is better than an INT, as such, sometimes just accepts he will be going down instead of just throwing up and hoping. Yes, he still throws picks, but the point should be made.

2) Which brings me to my second point. Equating a sack to an incomplete pass is ludicrous, they are both bad things to happen, but very different.

steelreserve
01-12-2010, 11:38 AM
Not as much film as Brady.

At least not if you count gay porn.

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 11:46 AM
2) Which brings me to my second point. Equating a sack to an incomplete pass is ludicrous, they are both bad things to happen, but very different.

Why? The play that's called is a pass play. It isn't completed. The play loses yards. The effect is the same. I understand that QB can't always throw the ball away, but in many cases it's the QB's decision. I don't see why the QB should be given a break. He knows damn well that throwing the ball away is better than getting sacked because you don't lose the yardage. And if he's not good enough to avoid the sack, i.e. if he can't read the defense quickly enough to either roll out to avoid the rush or to get far enough outside the pocket so he can chuck it out of bounds, then that should count against him. Yean you get some of the sacks in which the offensive line gave it up, but the other QB's get those too.

fansince'76
01-12-2010, 11:48 AM
he was pointing at bewbs. they were reading a porn mag.

:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

Don't forget, he hates kids, too! :toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Vrabinec, that is an interesting evaluation that you have done. I think it brings into account the fact that some QB's would rather take the sack than have the incomplete pass on their statline. Also would have to consider the fact that some QB's would rather the sack than the risk of INT.

Either way, its a neat bit of food for discussion, but it really shows how much statistics can be changed, tweeked and manipulated to show different things. Its probably why in training camp, the coaches dont look at a players DVOA to evaluate him.......that is best left to the fantasy football crowd.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-12-2010, 11:55 AM
Oh, and to the topic of this thread...I dont think Ben watches as much film as at least 50% of the other QB's in the NFL. He has said in the past that he doesnt watch that much game film.... Yeah, I think he could improve if he did more, but he's probably working on other stuff, like his short game.

Tough to complain about a kid with 2 rings who will probably get the last minute call to play in the Pro Bowl this year.

WH
01-12-2010, 12:04 PM
I can't find a link but I do remember hearing on the news that Ben watches a lot of game film and that he watches it on a 15 foot projector screen.

tony hipchest
01-12-2010, 12:04 PM
i would also add that ben is a bit behind the learning curve. he started playing qb at the age of 17 or 18?

qb's such as brady, manning, rivers, elway, favre, etc. have been breaking down gamefilm and studying defenses with their daddys since they were 5.

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 12:09 PM
i would also add that ben is a bit behind the learning curve. he started playing qb at the age of 17 or 18?

qb's such as brady, manning, rivers, elway, favre, etc. have been breaking down gamefilm and studying defenses with their daddys since they were 5.

Oh yeah. All the more reason he should be locked away in a film room.

JEFF4i
01-12-2010, 01:35 PM
I just don't get it.

He has a record year, and does nearly as much as anyone could ask, but we'll pick apart that he doesn't watch enough film with absolutely no proof?

Okay.

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 01:48 PM
I just don't get it.

He has a record year, and does nearly as much as anyone could ask, but we'll pick apart that he doesn't watch enough film with absolutely no proof?

Okay.

Sigh, okay, so the majority here think Ben is as good as he's gonna get, and that he does everything he can to be as good as he can. So, we can't improve there. Where do you guys think we can improve? Because, nobody's talking about mendenhall either, it's all about the corners and safeties and guards, but IMO Mendy has a LOT of room for impovement too, and HE needs to watch a lot of film as well. I mean, did he run ONE pass play right, coming out of the backfield into the flat? Every team can improve, and every player can improve. Limiting the suggestions as to which players is gonna make a long off-season even longer.

I wonder if Colts fans sat back the first time Manning had a 100 rating and a 4000 yards season and said "This is as good as this guy is gonna get. He doesn't need to watch any more film"

X-Terminator
01-12-2010, 02:03 PM
I can't find a link but I do remember hearing on the news that Ben watches a lot of game film and that he watches it on a 15 foot projector screen.

Yeah...he's even had other players over at his house watching game film. So he does study it for sure. You don't put up the numbers he has if you don't watch game film. Ben's issue is that he always wants the big play, and that is why he takes so many sacks, more so than not watching a lot of game film. Still though, I agree with the OP's general premise that there is always room for improvement, and Ben is no exception. Peyton Manning still studies hours upon hours of game film to this day, and he just won his 4th MVP. Nothing wrong with always wanting to be on top of your game.

steelax04
01-12-2010, 02:22 PM
Sigh, okay, so the majority here think Ben is as good as he's gonna get, and that he does everything he can to be as good as he can. So, we can't improve there. Where do you guys think we can improve? Because, nobody's talking about mendenhall either, it's all about the corners and safeties and guards, but IMO Mendy has a LOT of room for impovement too, and HE needs to watch a lot of film as well. I mean, did he run ONE pass play right, coming out of the backfield into the flat? Every team can improve, and every player can improve. Limiting the suggestions as to which players is gonna make a long off-season even longer.

I wonder if Colts fans sat back the first time Manning had a 100 rating and a 4000 yards season and said "This is as good as this guy is gonna get. He doesn't need to watch any more film"

Who said they think Ben is as good as he's going to get? Your quote "This is as good as this guy is gonna get. He doesn't need to watch any more film" in reference to Peyton wasn't said anywhere on this thread about Ben.

Maybe what Ben is doing with game film and preparation is just fine and he is still progressing. Throwing more game film at him does not necessarily determine how much success he's going to have on the field.

WeegiesWarriors
01-12-2010, 02:52 PM
I think he probably does spend a lot of time in the film room. I think he probably gets it, and does well when quizzed as the preparation continues through the week, and does well in practices. However, I go back to one of my favorite sports quotes (by Mike Tyson of all people): "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face."

I don't think he processes information quickly. If you give him a test and he sits there and is able to process it at his speed I would bet he aces it. But in determining what the defense is doing as the play progresses, who is where, move to the next read and make a decision all within 3 seconds, then no, I don't believe he can do that. I think he knows his reads... I just don't think he can process it quickly enough. If there are 4 options on a pass play, I don't think he gets to the 3rd and 4th as many times as he should without scrambling around. Whereas the true elite QBs do so at a much higher success rate. So he's figured out that by moving around things slow down for him and he does get to those reads, or coverage breaks down. That doesn't come without risk though.

Does all of this make me upset at him. Nope. He's brought me 2 Super Bowls doing it his way, and that's fine. I think it ultimately will shorten his career, but you can't argue the facts. He has the hardware, and if he can play another 5 years and average 8 or 9 wins per he'll likely be a first ballot HoF'er.

vrabinec
01-12-2010, 03:02 PM
I think he probably does spend a lot of time in the film room. I think he probably gets it, and does well when quizzed as the preparation continues through the week, and does well in practices. However, I go back to one of my favorite sports quotes (by Mike Tyson of all people): "Everybody has a plan until they get hit in the face."

I don't think he processes information quickly. If you give him a test and he sits there and is able to process it at his speed I would bet he aces it. But in determining what the defense is doing as the play progresses, who is where, move to the next read and make a decision all within 3 seconds, then no, I don't believe he can do that. I think he knows his reads... I just don't think he can process it quickly enough. If there are 4 options on a pass play, I don't think he gets to the 3rd and 4th as many times as he should without scrambling around. Whereas the true elite QBs do so at a much higher success rate. So he's figured out that by moving around things slow down for him and he does get to those reads, or coverage breaks down. That doesn't come without risk though.

Does all of this make me upset at him. Nope. He's brought me 2 Super Bowls doing it his way, and that's fine. I think it ultimately will shorten his career, but you can't argue the facts. He has the hardware, and if he can play another 5 years and average 8 or 9 wins per he'll likely be a first ballot HoF'er.

That may well be the case. And I certainly agree with your second paragraph.

SteelC7
01-12-2010, 05:18 PM
if he didnt do film study, he wouldnt be a 2 time SB champion and one of the best in the league. in the green bay game, the winning throw he made to wallace was his last read on that play, and he made the right decision, same thing with santonio in the SB, he even said he looked to the fullback, then hines, then went all the way back to holmes, made the throw, and i hope u know the rest

#1 Big Ben Fan
01-12-2010, 05:33 PM
I think Ben is fine and will only continue to get better. I still think he hasn't peaked yet as a player and I think he watches enough film. No not at the level of a Peyton Manning but Peyton Manning watches more film then any player probably in the history of the NFL.

I don't think there is anything wrong either with you being critical of Ben on any part of his game. Sure he has some things to work on but like I said I don't think he has peaked yet. Just give him some more time and in the process we have already enjoyed two Super Bowl titles since he has been the starting QB of our Stillers.

I'm sure Ben wants to win another ring and I'm hoping this disappointment of missing the play-offs motivates Ben even more to torch the rest of the NFL next year.

tony hipchest
01-13-2010, 12:22 PM
big ben studying his playbook-

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/kokoskitten.jpg

JEFF4i
01-13-2010, 12:24 PM
Tony, I lol'd.

scsteeler
01-13-2010, 01:04 PM
Why? The play that's called is a pass play. It isn't completed. The play loses yards. The effect is the same. I understand that QB can't always throw the ball away, but in many cases it's the QB's decision. I don't see why the QB should be given a break. He knows damn well that throwing the ball away is better than getting sacked because you don't lose the yardage. And if he's not good enough to avoid the sack, i.e. if he can't read the defense quickly enough to either roll out to avoid the rush or to get far enough outside the pocket so he can chuck it out of bounds, then that should count against him. Yean you get some of the sacks in which the offensive line gave it up, but the other QB's get those too.



Question if you are not bashing Ben (not saying you are) what point are you trying to get across?

WH
01-13-2010, 01:45 PM
Getting rid of the ball has more positives than taking the sack. Ben has a huge arm, he can put it 50 feet over anyones head. It's not like if he bombs it into the stands it's going to get intercepted.

vrabinec
01-13-2010, 01:56 PM
Question if you are not bashing Ben (not saying you are) what point are you trying to get across?

The original post was a question, "how much film study do you think Ben does, relative to other QB's".

The reason I ask the question is because Ben got sacked 50 times. He gets sacked 9% of the time he drops back to pass. But our line is average in the time they give him on pass playes, similar to other lines whose QB got sacked 25-30 times. Not only that, but Ben gets sacked 39% of the time that he gets hit, that's twice as much as guys like Manning, Brady, and Rivers.

It's not just that he needs to get rid of the ball to keep from giving up all that yardage (we led the league with 348 sack yards allowed, and to put that into perspective, our defense only allowed 305 yards per game) and to keep from taking the pounding, because I love to study statistics, and I can tell you that QB's who consistently get sacked 50 times a year break down exponentially as they near 30 years old. If he isn't able to improve on that number, then we're gonna have a broke down, over the hill QB with 60 million left on his contract in a year or two, and he's gonna cost himself a Super Bowl ring or two.

Maybe it's like someone said, he does study, but he just doesn't process the information that quickly. If that's the case, then there's nothing anyone can do about it. If he can do more film study and get it so drilled into his head that he improves his reaction time a half second, maybe he can extend his career.

DoubleYoi
01-13-2010, 02:22 PM
I don't think we'll ever know how much film Ben watches compared to every other QB in the league so a better question would be "what can Ben do to improve his game?" In no way am I saying he needs to improve his game but every semi-humble QB will admit there's room for improvement.

I've loved Ben's play from day one because it was a breath of fresh air compared to Neil O'Donnel's happy feet in the pocket and Kordell staring at his primary receiver until he lobbed an INT right into the CB's open arms. I do think that Ben can improve on hitting his hot routes on some 3rd-down blitz scenarios. The Cleveland game (3rd-and-1 pass play especially) made it painfully evident that you shouldn't be taking your full three or five step drop and going through normal progressions on every down. I also don't think spending an extra 5 or 10 hours a week in film study would necessarily solve that problem. Identifying and fixing problems are why Ben and BA get paid the big bucks and we're merely here to speculate.

DoubleYoi
01-13-2010, 02:29 PM
The original post was a question, "how much film study do you think Ben does, relative to other QB's".

The reason I ask the question is because Ben got sacked 50 times. He gets sacked 9% of the time he drops back to pass. But our line is average in the time they give him on pass playes, similar to other lines whose QB got sacked 25-30 times. Not only that, but Ben gets sacked 39% of the time that he gets hit, that's twice as much as guys like Manning, Brady, and Rivers.


Are you implying Ben is easier to take down than the three QBs you mentioned? If so, I think any validity your argument had just went right out the window. Ben has proved to be one of the most elusive QBs currently playing in the league, if not ever. He thrives under pressure and obviously is a very tough QB to tackle. I really hope that's not what you were implying because if so, I have absolutely nothing to say to that.

vrabinec
01-13-2010, 03:18 PM
Are you implying Ben is easier to take down than the three QBs you mentioned? .

No. I'm saying that, whenever other QB's see that someone has beaten an o-lineman and is about to hit them, get outside the pocket and get rid of the ball. I think part of the problem is that Ben is so big and thinks he's invincible and can't be taken down, so he stands there and takes the hit, thinking he can shrug it off, but it gets him sacked more than other QB's. And he may make a throw now and then with a guy handgin on his hip, but there are other throws he makes when he';s been hit that get intercepted (last year's Baltimore game immediately comes to mind).


Ben has proved to be one of the most elusive QBs currently playing in the league, if not ever. .

You must never have see Michael Vick or Steve Young play.


He thrives under pressure and obviously is a very tough QB to tackle..

But not tough enough to tackle to avoid being the most sacked QB in the NFL over the last three years. I think he can be better. IMO, he could cut the sacks in half. That would add ten TD's to his numbers per year and make up for the additional incompletions he would add to his stats due to throwing the ball away. And I think he can do more film study and get rid of the ball quicker, and be the best in the NFL. Right now, as much as I love him and the two Super Bowls he has brought us, he is not the best in the NFL. We didn't need him to be the best in those two years we won the Super Bowls, but we may need him to be the best if we're gonna win any more.

DoubleYoi
01-13-2010, 08:26 PM
No. I'm saying that, whenever other QB's see that someone has beaten an o-lineman and is about to hit them, get outside the pocket and get rid of the ball. I think part of the problem is that Ben is so big and thinks he's invincible and can't be taken down, so he stands there and takes the hit, thinking he can shrug it off, but it gets him sacked more than other QB's. And he may make a throw now and then with a guy handgin on his hip, but there are other throws he makes when he';s been hit that get intercepted (last year's Baltimore game immediately comes to mind).

Any analyst (or slightly educated football fan) will identify one of Big Ben's biggest assets as his ability to elude pass-rushers and keep plays alive by getting outside of the pocket. It's a double-edged sword though and taking sacks is something that's going to come with the territory. However, since Faneca left via FA and Hartings retired, the O-Line has been mediocre at best and it was decimated by injuries this year. The fact that Ben threw for 4,000+ AND Mendenhall ran for another 1,000 is astonishing to me. Don't put all the sacks on Ben's back without letting the O-Line shoulder some of the blame. Not placing all the blame on them but it's a team sport and no individual should take all the credit or blame.




You must never have see Michael Vick or Steve Young play.

Come on now. Michael Vick is "elusive" because he's consistently (or was) the fastest man on the field. He couldn't take a hit and shrug it off like Ben can because he's a totally different style player. I also said "one of" the most elusive QBs which doesn't imply he's a better scrambler than the two.

But not tough enough to tackle to avoid being the most sacked QB in the NFL over the last three years. I think he can be better. IMO, he could cut the sacks in half. That would add ten TD's to his numbers per year and make up for the additional incompletions he would add to his stats due to throwing the ball away. And I think he can do more film study and get rid of the ball quicker, and be the best in the NFL. Right now, as much as I love him and the two Super Bowls he has brought us, he is not the best in the NFL. We didn't need him to be the best in those two years we won the Super Bowls, but we may need him to be the best if we're gonna win any more.

Cutting his sacks in half? You honestly believe he can do that by throwing the ball away when he's under siege and still add 10 TDs to his stat line? And you seriously think the O-Line we have will allow him to be sacked 25 times or less over 16 games? I'm not saying every sack is warranted but holding on to the ball is part of his game and that's when he works a lot of his magic. Expecting him to change that aspect of his game would do the Steelers offense, and team in general, a serious injustice.

devilsdancefloor
01-13-2010, 08:56 PM
i really think it boils down to the routes being run. the denver game nice clean routes being run ben throwing on time Vs 2nd cleveland game routes taking to long to develop been holding onto the ball to wait wait wait. i think he reads defenses well hell phines game td to heath he had like 8 or 9 seconds he had time to come back to heath i think he read all the receivers on that play. He does fine with film and comparing him to manning on fillm study is not fair at all. manning is a freak of nature and with all this "study" his playoff record is horrible for such a "elite" QB. there is ALWAYS room for improvement. But he is limited to the plays he is given. Not bashing BA either its a fact all QBs have. you ask about Mendenhall i think he was picking up blitzes well this year after he got to sit on the bench. he could use s swift kick in the rear to remind him to stop spinning so much to look for the crease and get his hinney through it ASAP. Could more film study help ben. Im guilty as many of you are i am guess i yell at the tv THROW IT AWAY!!!!! But that is ben and i dont think that will change.

Psyychoward86
01-13-2010, 09:01 PM
u know what, this is a great thread. And i mean GREAT. Reading defenses kind of is Ben's achilles heel. For the most part, Ben is able to make simple adjustments to opposing blitz packages, but he's no Peyton Manning at changing his protection and the playcall. Not to make any comparisons, but Peyton is by far, the MOST cerebral QB in the league, pretty much the guy who makes his O-line and wide receivers look better than they really are.

scsteeler
01-14-2010, 08:02 AM
u know what, this is a great thread. And i mean GREAT. Reading defenses kind of is Ben's achilles heel. For the most part, Ben is able to make simple adjustments to opposing blitz packages, but he's no Peyton Manning at changing his protection and the playcall. Not to make any comparisons, but Peyton is by far, the MOST cerebral QB in the league, pretty much the guy who makes his O-line and wide receivers look better than they really are.


I so agree. I am not a Peyton fan but the he can play QB and would be great on any team.

madtowndrunkard
01-14-2010, 09:11 AM
How dare you question the ability of any of our players (not named Ike or Gay) You should now every player on our team is God like....especially Ben.


But since we are pointing out Ben's weaknesses.....

Ben has never been a quick decision maker. That is his biggest weakness. I know I'll get slammed for saying this to, but Ben also is not accurate throwing deep balls....the over the shoulder / 50 yard type passes. When he does complete a bomb it is almost always under thrown and it's the WR that makes the move to get it. Ben takes sacks more then any QB I've ever seen. I have little doubt that if he did throw the ball away or dump it off to avoid the sack we would have won more games this year. Ben appears to doubt his own judgment and decisions....which is why he's often hesitant. I can see how some may see that as being unprepared. Lack of preparation breeds indecisiveness. Is that Ben's problem? I don't know, but there are definitely whispers heard from his teammates to suggest as much. Anyone who thinks Ben is the best QB in the league or the best QB ever is delusional.

Now that I've pointed out Ben's issues...(that many here refuse to acknowledge) we can also point out Ben's strengths.

You cannot discount Ben's ability to make plays and win games. He's better then most QB's in this league....I'd say hes among the top 5 for sure.....but for different reasons then you typically see in an elite QB. You have to take the good w/ the Bad. He's tough....he's a gamer....he's as competitive as any QB in the league. He will do anything to get the job done. Sure sometimes it is at his own expense but that is how he is wired.

I would say Ben is maybe the best in the league at throwing medium range balls. His ability to hit a WR 20-30 yards down field is unbelievable. Ben's ability to find a WR while scrambling is as good as any QB I've ever seen. (reminds me of Elway or Farve in that aspect) Ben has the ability to become "hyper focused" When the game is on the line and he knows any mistake will lose the game, Ben steps it up (usually). At those times Ben turns into the best QB in the league. There is an "it" that Ben has that very few QB's have. It is what separates the great players from the good players.

At some point in Ben's career he has to change....and I think it needs to happen soon. If not he will be out of the league. You cannot take the hits Ben takes and expect to play in this league very long. Especially given his size and weight. His knees have to be taking a pounding. Ben will be forced to mature. It happens to all QB's who have been in the league a long time. Eventually Ben will be quicker with his decisions. Eventually he'll choose to throw the ball away or dump it off...rather then stand in the pocket and take a hit.....or run around like a mad man. Favre was very much the same earlier in his career.

X-Terminator
01-14-2010, 09:23 AM
How dare you question the ability of any of our players (not named Ike or Gay) You should now every player on our team is God like....especially Ben.


But since we are pointing out Ben's weaknesses.....

Ben has never been a quick decision maker. That is his biggest weakness. I know I'll get slammed for saying this to, but Ben also is not accurate throwing deep balls....the over the shoulder / 50 yard type passes. When he does complete a bomb it is almost always under thrown and it's the WR that makes the move to get it. Ben takes sacks more then any QB I've ever seen. I have little doubt that if he did throw the ball away or dump it off to avoid the sack we would have won more games this year. Ben appears to doubt his own judgment and decisions....which is why he's often hesitant. I can see how some may see that as being unprepared. Lack of preparation breeds indecisiveness. Is that Ben's problem? I don't know, but there are definitely whispers heard from his teammates to suggest as much. Anyone who thinks Ben is the best QB in the league or the best QB ever is delusional.

Now that I've pointed out Ben's issues...(that many here refuse to acknowledge) we can also point out Ben's strengths.

You cannot discount Ben's ability to make plays and win games. He's better then most QB's in this league....I'd say hes among the top 5 for sure.....but for different reasons then you typically see in an elite QB. You have to take the good w/ the Bad. He's tough....he's a gamer....he's as competitive as any QB in the league. He will do anything to get the job done. Sure sometimes it is at his own expense but that is how he is wired.

I would say Ben is maybe the best in the league at throwing medium range balls. His ability to hit a WR 20-30 yards down field is unbelievable. Ben's ability to find a WR while scrambling is as good as any QB I've ever seen. (reminds me of Elway or Farve in that aspect) Ben has the ability to become "hyper focused" When the game is on the line and he knows any mistake will lose the game, Ben steps it up (usually). At those times Ben turns into the best QB in the league. There is an "it" that Ben has that very few QB's have. It is what separates the great players from the good players.

At some point in Ben's career he has to change....and I think it needs to happen soon. If not he will be out of the league. You cannot take the hits Ben takes and expect to play in this league very long. Especially given his size and weight. His knees have to be taking a pounding. Ben will be forced to mature. It happens to all QB's who have been in the league a long time. Eventually Ben will be quicker with his decisions. Eventually he'll choose to throw the ball away or dump it off...rather then stand in the pocket and take a hit.....or run around like a mad man. Favre was very much the same earlier in his career.

What in the world are you talking about? When has Ben EVER been off-limits as far as criticism goes? Just about everyone here understands and acknowledges that while he is a great QB, he does have flaws. Other than that ridiculous tidbit, it's a solid post and I agree with almost all of it.

Mojouw
01-14-2010, 12:36 PM
The link is to an article by Peter King where he attempts to get Ben to "break down" what happened during the final drive in the last Super Bowl.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/peter_king/02/08/steelers/index.html

I think it is pretty clear in the article that Ben was scanning the field for open receivers rather than identifying specific defensive coverage schemes or formations pre-snap and then implementing a plan for attacking that particular defense. I also think that is clear that Ben, regardless of statistics, is not a "student of the game" type of QB, while, for instance, Peyton Manning is. And that is fine. One can have a long and distinguished career and never be the QB who watches the most film or whatnot; as long as the physical tools never erode.

Ask any Green Bay or Minnesota fans how much film Favre watches. His last 3+ years in Green Bay it was a constant fight between him and the staff to get him to watch any film outside of mandatory team meetings. Favre gets by on experience, fearlessness, and an amazing set of physical gifts. I am by no means attempting to argue that Ben is going to have the same career, just that they style of quarterbacking in terms of preparation, or lack thereof, and in game play is comparable.

I agree with the OP that Ben appears to watch/study less film than other QB's around the league. However, as long as his physical abilities hold up I think that that can still result in high caliber seasons. My fear is what happens in 2-3 seasons when he slows up a little and can't shrug off blitzing linebackers etc.?

DoubleYoi
01-14-2010, 12:46 PM
At some point in Ben's career he has to change....and I think it needs to happen soon. If not he will be out of the league. You cannot take the hits Ben takes and expect to play in this league very long. Especially given his size and weight. His knees have to be taking a pounding. Ben will be forced to mature. It happens to all QB's who have been in the league a long time. Eventually Ben will be quicker with his decisions. Eventually he'll choose to throw the ball away or dump it off...rather then stand in the pocket and take a hit.....or run around like a mad man. Favre was very much the same earlier in his career.

And when he does change is the exact same instant that fans will be saying "remember when Ben used to go out and win games with wreckless abandonment? Where is that guy now? He's washed up!" There are aspects of his game that need to change and I believe he should work long and hard in the offseason to learn to feet-first-slide instead of diving head-first for the marker. I understand he's a gamer and his competitiveness makes it hard for him to hold back but you have to know when enough is enough. After a few concussions I think it's time to start sliding feet first.

vrabinec
01-14-2010, 12:59 PM
Ben has never been a quick decision maker. That is his biggest weakness. I know I'll get slammed for saying this to, but Ben also is not accurate throwing deep balls....the over the shoulder / 50 yard type passes..

But on the passes that travel 10 yards or less (based on the ESPN site "splits" which go back to '02:


NAME - COM - ATT - % - YDS - YPA - TD - INT - RATING - YEARS

Brady 1771 - 2431 / 72.9% / 14,566 / 6.0 / 85 - 29 / 94.4 (8)

Brees 1937 - 2753 / 70.4% / 14,695 / 5.3 / 84 - 42 / 86.8 (8)

Favre 2119 - 2914 / 72.7% / 16,786 / 5.8 / 94 - 43 / 91.2 (8)

Manning 1997 - 2667 / 74.8% / 15,472 / 5.8 / 96 - 36 / 95.0 (8)

McNabb 1548 - 2303 / 67.2% / 13,171 / 5.7 / 87 - 25 / 89.1 (8)

Rodgers 513 - 706 / 72.7% / 4,144 / 5.9 / 30 - 3 / 99.5 (2)

Roethlisberger 1013 - 1389 / 72.9% / 8,798 / 6.3 / 49 - 20 / 95.0 (6)

Romo 804 - 1120 / 71.8% / 7,493 / 6.7 / 38 - 18 / 94.4 (4)

Rivers 798 - 1133 / 70.4% / 6,884 / 6.1 / 43 - 17 / 92.5 (4)

Qb ratings in order:

1. Rodgers 99.5

2. Roethlisberger 95.0

2. Manning 95.0

4. Brady 94.4

4. Romo 94.4

6. Rivers 92.5

7. Favre 91.2

8. McNabb 89.1

9. Brees 86.8

It's in the deep balls that his rating suffers. Some of that is the fact that he plays in a cold weather site that gets a lot of wind off the river and plays behind a line that doesn't give him a lot of time to throw, but the other part of that is the fact that he doesn't recognise the coverage as well as the guys who pass him up on passes that are deeper than 10 yards:



NAME - COM - ATT - % - YDS - YPA - TD - INT - RATING - YEARS (since 02)

Brady 582 - 1291 / 45% / 12,805 / 9.9YPA / 117-66 / 89.9 (8)

Brees 682 - 1300 / 52.5% / 15,131 / 11.6YPA / 115-67 / 102.3 (8)

Favre 584 - 1357 / 43% / 13,039 / 9.6YPA / 110-101 / 74.0 (8)

Manning 827 - 1569 / 52.7% / 17,643 / 11.2YPA / 155-62 / 109.3 (8)

McNabb 471 - 1055 / 44.7% / 11,305 / 10.7YPA / 71-40 / 90.6 (8)

Rodgers 147 - 313 / 47% / 3691 / 11.8YPA / 24-17 / 93.3 (2)

Roethlisberger 444 - 916 / 48.5% / 9522 / 10.4YPA / 71-60 / 84.3 (6)

Romo 303 - 631 / 48% / 7143 / 11.3YPA / 65-35 / 100.5 (4)

Rivers 349 - 680 / 51.3% / 7293 / 10.7YPA / 56-25 / 101.7 (4)



Here are the QB ratings in order.

Manning 109.3

Brees 102.3

Rivers 101.7

Romo 100.5

Rodgers 93.3

McNabb 90.6

Brady 89.9

Roethlisberger 84.3

Favre 74.0

Gnutella
01-14-2010, 07:01 PM
Sometimes it's possible to study too much. When that happens, you end up worrying about the trivial sh*t instead what's actually going to be on the test.

urgle burgle
01-14-2010, 07:28 PM
:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:

Don't forget, he hates kids, too! :toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny:



he kicked my dog yesterday too...

GBMelBlount
01-14-2010, 09:38 PM
Relative to other QB's, how much film study do you think Ben does?

Not enough.



.

TheWarDen86
01-14-2010, 09:40 PM
Not enough.



.


Twice as much as Kordell; half as much as Peyton. :chuckle:

GBMelBlount
01-14-2010, 09:45 PM
Sometimes it's possible to study too much. When that happens, you end up worrying about the trivial sh*t instead what's actually going to be on the test.


Sure, it's POSSIBLE, but usually deep study much more more often results in it becoming so "engrained" that your responses become almost automatic, without conscious thought. I would almost always rather err on the side of "over studying" (if that is even possible) than not studying enough....

devilsdancefloor
01-14-2010, 10:01 PM
i just dont kow how anyone can put a number on how much or how much he doestn study we all retain/lern at diffrent paces. just because manning takes film home and pkugs it into his brain when he he goes to bed doesnt mean ben doesnt do his fair share. i am sure Mr anderson and BA would have said something or put their foot up his ass if he wasnt meeting their expectations on film watching. Also hartwig needs to "notice" some of the blitzes and gt the line in the correct adjustment. so how much film study does the line do as well.

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 10:39 AM
This:
"I was getting ready to throw it to Mo,'' Roethlisberger said. "In fact, I was throwing it to him -- but at the last possible second I saw Cromartie sprinting up to cover Mo. He must have been reading my eyes. So I pulled it back. Who knows what would have happened had I thrown that one?''

Says it all. That's reading a defense....proactively.

Also, Ben calls more of his own plays than ANY OTHER QB IN THE LEAGUE. You simply don't trust a guy who's not a student of the game with that kind of responsibility.

vrabinec
01-15-2010, 10:42 AM
This:
[B][I][U]Also, Ben calls more of his own plays than ANY OTHER QB IN THE LEAGUE. You simply don't trust a guy who's not a student of the game with that kind of responsibility.

Really? That's cool. Where did you hear that?

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 10:45 AM
Really? That's cool. Where did you hear that?

Phil Simms....last week. Already cited and sourced in another thread.

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 10:49 AM
Better source this....

http://www.parade.com/celebrity/personality-parade/2010/01/nfl-quarterbacks.html

Q Do any NFL quarterbacks still call their own plays? If so, which ones?—Mike Cabin, Bothell, Wash.

A Thanks to helmet microphones, very few do so anymore. CBS commentator and former New York Giants great Phil Simms [pictured] tells us: “The two that come closest are [the Colts’] Peyton Manning and [the Steelers’] Ben Roethlisberger. Roethlisberger probably has called more of his own plays this year than anybody in pro football. But the quarterback, no matter how successful and powerful he is, has to work within the rules.” And coaches rule.

X-Terminator
01-15-2010, 12:15 PM
Well, that kinda pokes a hole in the notion that Ben can't read defenses...

plenewken
01-15-2010, 12:17 PM
Sure, it's POSSIBLE, but usually deep study much more more often results in it becoming so "engrained" that your responses become almost automatic, without conscious thought. I would almost always rather err on the side of "over studying" (if that is even possible) than not studying enough....

Experience is what takes you from unconsciously incompetent to consciously incompetent, to consciously competent, and finally to unconsciously competent.

WH
01-15-2010, 01:10 PM
Someone email Phil Simms and ask him how he knows that.

vrabinec
01-15-2010, 01:19 PM
Well, that kinda pokes a hole in the notion that Ben can't read defenses...

Maybe. But does that also mean that all the rage aimed at Arians should be aimed at Ben for the playcalling?

JEFF4i
01-15-2010, 02:06 PM
Anyone have questions about Ben? Watch the final 2:38 (I think it is) of the 2009 Superbowl.

/thread

Mojouw
01-15-2010, 02:42 PM
Maybe. But does that also mean that all the rage aimed at Arians should be aimed at Ben for the playcalling?

I think the general consensus is that Ben calls the plays in no-huddle and 2 minute drill type of situations. Assuming that is the case, then the answer is an emphatic no. For the past two years running this team's most effective offensive set and situation has been the no-huddle and late in half or late in game drives. Basically this team performs better when Arains is pushed out of the way and Ben calls the plays.

I still think he needs to watch more film though.

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 05:21 PM
Someone email Phil Simms and ask him how he knows that.


It's one thing to question me. I get that....I don't care, but I get it....

It's another thing entirely to question Simms. I don't particularly care for him as a commentator, but I hang on his every word when he starts his analysis because IMO there is no other commentator in football that has his head wrapped around the game better than Phil Simms.

You continually show your stripes with posts like this...

Psyychoward86
01-15-2010, 05:24 PM
Well, that kinda pokes a hole in the notion that Ben can't read defenses...

no, it doesnt. Reading a defense pre-snap is alot tougher to do than making a decision after the snap. It's a skill that few QB's possess

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 05:30 PM
no, it doesnt. Reading a defense pre-snap is alot tougher to do than making a decision after the snap. It's a skill that few QB's possess

So why are we letting Ben do that? He calls his own plays in the huddle, and he calls his own audibles at the line. If he CANNOT read the defense pre-snap then why in the name of all-the-geniuses-on-this-board-who-think-they-know-how-to-run-an-offense would the Steelers let this guy handle that much responsibility?

Steeldude
01-15-2010, 07:43 PM
the name of all-the-geniuses-on-this-board-who-think-they-know-how-to-run-an-offense would the Steelers let this guy handle that much responsibility?

still trying to bait people :coffee:

X-Terminator
01-15-2010, 08:26 PM
So why are we letting Ben do that? He calls his own plays in the huddle, and he calls his own audibles at the line. If he CANNOT read the defense pre-snap then why in the name of all-the-geniuses-on-this-board-who-think-they-know-how-to-run-an-offense would the Steelers let this guy handle that much responsibility?

I was going to say that...well, maybe not EXACTLY like this, but the same thing nonetheless.

urgle burgle
01-15-2010, 09:17 PM
Twice as much as Kordell; half as much as Peyton. :chuckle:

but not ANYWHERE CLOSE to the all powerful and ominpresent Bubby!!! :tt02:

Psyychoward86
01-15-2010, 10:11 PM
So why are we letting Ben do that? He calls his own plays in the huddle, and he calls his own audibles at the line. If he CANNOT read the defense pre-snap then why in the name of all-the-geniuses-on-this-board-who-think-they-know-how-to-run-an-offense would the Steelers let this guy handle that much responsibility?

that would be Bruce Arians and his inconsistency with the run game, sir.

revefsreleets
01-16-2010, 09:51 AM
So we've come full circle, then....Ben calls the plays that work, and Arians calls the plays that don't.

Psyychoward86
01-16-2010, 09:55 AM
So we've come full circle, then....Ben calls the plays that work, and Arians calls the plays that don't.

Id say Ben does well in the no huddle, and i'll agree with the 2nd part, so yeah, i guess we do sort of agree?

revefsreleets
01-16-2010, 09:59 AM
Oh boy....I need another break.

vrabinec
03-10-2010, 08:04 AM
Not bumping this to be an ass, but I imagine it will be really tough for him to get his mind on film study if he's worried about legal troubles. Or do you think it might now become an escape for him and he might be at the complex every day, you know, just to show the Rooney's how hard he's working. (My girls were like that, they never studied harder in school or helped out around the house more than right after they got in some kind of trouble. Just human nature)

SteelCityMom
03-10-2010, 08:10 AM
Not bumping this to be an ass, but I imagine it will be really tough for him to get his mind on film study if he's worried about legal troubles. Or do you think it might now become an escape for him and he might be at the complex every day, you know, just to show the Rooney's how hard he's working. (My girls were like that, they never studied harder in school or helped out around the house more than right after they got in some kind of trouble. Just human nature)


In all honesty it might be kind of an escape for him. I'm just guessing based off of his performance last season. He had the best year of his career so far all within months of being accused of rape.

stillers4me
03-10-2010, 05:09 PM
In all honesty it might be kind of an escape for him. I'm just guessing based off of his performance last season. He had the best year of his career so far all within months of being accused of rape.

Commense with the raping and pillaging.

Steeldude
03-11-2010, 12:09 AM
BR put himself in this position. there are no excuses for not studying(not saying that he isn't) or performing well. he is given way too much money for practically any excuse to be valid.

stillers4me
03-11-2010, 05:13 AM
BR put himself in this position. there are no excuses for not studying(not saying that he isn't) or performing well. he is given way too much money for practically any excuse to be valid.

I have no problems with Ben's performance on the field last year. Even considering the Cleveland game, (which I'm still trying to forget), he managed to have a record braking season.

desertsteel
03-11-2010, 04:06 PM
Ben's film study = College Girls Gone Wild

vrabinec
03-16-2010, 07:29 AM
Not bumping this to be an ass, but I imagine it will be really tough for him to get his mind on film study if he's worried about legal troubles. Or do you think it might now become an escape for him and he might be at the complex every day, you know, just to show the Rooney's how hard he's working. (My girls were like that, they never studied harder in school or helped out around the house more than right after they got in some kind of trouble. Just human nature)

Well, so much for my theory that his woes will make him work harder and be at the complex day and night to show the Rooneys how dedicated he is. Post-Gazette reports that OTA's started Monday, and Ben was the most notable no-show.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10075/1043168-66.stm

madtowndrunkard
03-16-2010, 09:33 AM
I'm sorry, but you can't throw at roughly 70% accuracy and throw more than twice as many TD's as INT's, not to mention having a 100 QBR in this league without being able to read a defense. This seems like just another excuse made up by people running out of excuses as to why Ben holds the ball too long.

If you watch him in the pocket, he is reading the defense. He goes through his reads as long as he has time, and then some. I just don't understand this obsession with ripping up every little thing about the team because they went 9-7 this year. He's just a gunslinger, and he'd rather hold the ball as long as possible rather than throw it away. That's really all there is to it.

Also, is there now some concern that Ben is NOT a student of the game? Because, again, you simply cannot put up numbers like he does without doing due diligence. I'm sure he watches as much film as any other top-flight NFL QB.

What you are saying is mostly true, but back in 05 I don't think that was the case. It's been widely publicized that Ben's teammates did not think he was putting in the work. Remember the little sit down Batch had with Ben two years ago? I have a feeling last year he changes his ways and put in the time. Because IMO he was a different QB this past season.

Unfortunately it all might not matter if he goes to jail.

Steelers>NFL
03-17-2010, 07:04 AM
I have no problems with Ben's performance on the field last year. Even considering the Cleveland game, (which I'm still trying to forget), he managed to have a record braking season.
Records are not hard to break anymore. The whole game and the rules favor offense, offense & offense. So to break a passing record, or td pass is not impressive in my mind. Now to play in like 25o consecutive games, that is impressive.

markymarc
03-20-2010, 12:20 PM
Records are not hard to break anymore. The whole game and the rules favor offense, offense & offense. So to break a passing record, or td pass is not impressive in my mind. Now to play in like 25o consecutive games, that is impressive.

I like this statement and totally agree! Unfortunately the "fantasy football" mentality has taken over the NFL.