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mesaSteeler
01-13-2010, 10:04 PM
Does no Casey mean a 4-3 is on the horizon?
Steelers Q&A with Ed Bouchette
Wednesday, January 13, 2010
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10013/1027920-367.stm
By Ed Bouchette, Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
Peter Diana/Post-Gazette
The possible departure of Big Snack will leave a big hole in the Steelers' defense. Might the Steelers switch schemes if he leaves?


Q: I was wondering what the Steelers long term plans at NT are? It seems to me like they should have locked up Casey Hampton last year instead of Brett Keisel (solely based on need). I know Ziggy Hood was drafted with high expectations last year, but my understanding is that he will probably end up being a good fit as a 3-4 DE (where we already have Smith and Kiesel for a couple more years). If we lose Hampton is a 4-3 possible given Mike Tomlin's background?

Jayshiv Badlani, Pittsburgh

BOUCHETTE: Ziggy Hood is a defensive end. However, so was Kimo von Oelhoffen when he arrived as a free agent in 2000 and he played nose tackle for one season before Hampton was drafted in 2001. In an emergency, I supposed they could press Hood into that spot, especially with Aaron Smith at one end and Keisel on the other in 2010. Chris Hoke also plays NT. Forget about the 4-3. LaMarr Woodley and James Harrison do not fit the 4-3 as outside linebackers, although Lawrence Timmons could play there. And they do not have the defensive tackles to play the 4-3 on a consistent basis.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10013/1027920-367.stm#ixzz0cYXLY6VB

MACH1
01-13-2010, 10:07 PM
I hope we keep Hampton, obviously he can still play at a high level.

Merchant
01-13-2010, 10:56 PM
why would she switch to a 4-3 even if Hampton leaves? everyone's familiar with it, we've had a top 5 defense for how many years now with it? and i'm sure Hoke can fill in admirably, or maybe we can draft Terrance Cody if needed to replace Hampton.

Steely McSmash
01-13-2010, 11:02 PM
I don't know how some people get this 4-3 seed planted in their skulls. That topic just won't die.

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 12:06 AM
The odds are that we don't switch to a 4-3. ( I brought it up a week ago and many people bashed me) However, I don't think we'd drop that much running 4-3 oppose to a 3-4. Like Ed said, Woodley and Harrison are not 4-3 OLBs. BUT, they could easily be 4-3 DEs, since they blitz 90% of the time anyways. Timmons would also be a beast 4-3 OLB.
IMO, here's what our 4-3 lineup would look like, considering we lose Hampton.
DEs= Woodley & Harrison & Kiesel as a backup
DTs=Smith & Hood
OLB= Timmons & Fox (Fox played some OLB in KC)
MLB= Farrior at least til we get some younger talent (Farrior lead the league in tackles as a Jet when they ran a 4-3)

Just sayin...

steelreserve
01-14-2010, 12:24 AM
BOUCHETTE: Forget about the 4-3. LaMarr Woodley and James Harrison do not fit the 4-3 as outside linebackers, although Lawrence Timmons could play there. And they do not have the defensive tackles to play the 4-3 on a consistent basis.

Seems to me like any of the defensive linemen we have now could play tackle in a 4-3. Woodley doesn't need to be an OLB because he would probably be a DE or one of those DE/LB hybrids. Timmons certainly seems quick enough to be one OLB, and I don't know what's wrong with Harrison.

Seems more to me like if there's no Hampton, we have pretty good personnel for a 4-3, with the added benefit of not needing as many MLBs, which we are thin at, and also not needing to find a 330+ pound nose tackle, which there is about one of available per year and he goes in the top 10 of the draft. That's been a huge problem since everyone started copycatting us, and it's only getting worse.

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 12:42 AM
Finally, someone agrees with me. We do have the personnel to run the 4-3, but idk if we'd change considering how successful we have been running the 3-4. I think it all depends on if we resign Hampton, or draft Cody.

OneForTheToe
01-14-2010, 12:54 AM
The odds are that we don't switch to a 4-3. ( I brought it up a week ago and many people bashed me) However, I don't think we'd drop that much running 4-3 oppose to a 3-4. Like Ed said, Woodley and Harrison are not 4-3 OLBs. BUT, they could easily be 4-3 DEs, since they blitz 90% of the time anyways. Timmons would also be a beast 4-3 OLB.
IMO, here's what our 4-3 lineup would look like, considering we lose Hampton.
DEs= Woodley & Harrison & Kiesel as a backup
DTs=Smith & Hood
OLB= Timmons & Fox (Fox played some OLB in KC)
MLB= Farrior at least til we get some younger talent (Farrior lead the league in tackles as a Jet when they ran a 4-3)

Just sayin...

I'm sorry, no offense intended, but I don't see the logic in this. While Woodley certainly could play DE, James Harrison is not a DE. If you look at his pass rushing moves they mostly require that he attack the OT from off the line. OTs have trouble getting their hands on him because he either goes around them, or gets a full head of steam and gets under their pads, aided by the fact that he is so short.. Easier to do off the line, IMO. In addition, Farrior clearly started to slow last season. So, we are going to give him more territory to cover? Moving to the outside backers. Yes, Timmons would fit in at outside backer, but Fox would be playing out of position. Also, who exactly would be our backups at linebacker? You are starting our top five linebackers from this season. Finally, Kiesel had one of his best years. The first half of the season I thought he was exceptional. He seemed to slow a bit at the end. Not sure if it was due to injury, or maybe he was getting more attention from opposing teams without Smith.

Again, it's just an opinion, but running a 4-3 with this personnel just doesn't seem to be a logical choice to me.

Steeldude
01-14-2010, 01:10 AM
The possible departure of Big Snack will leave a big hole in the Steelers' defense.

the steelers have shown to play better with hoke in.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 01:21 AM
Steelers could easily switch to a 4-3, but the only issues is that Harrison doesnt fit and is under contract for some big $$$. I think Its pretty much a given that they are gonna stay 3-4.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 04:36 AM
We have the players to play a 4-3. They just need to move around a bit. LeBeau was a 4-3 cooridator for years in the 80's. Tomlin ran the 4-3 with the Vikings, and they actually had a good defense.

Dude who wrote this article doesn't know much about football. This doesn't even know that Woodley is a 4-3 defensive end and that Kimo was a defensive tackle before he got here.

Chris Hoke played 13 games in 2004 in Casey's spot and I thought he did a good job. Only problem is Hoke is older than Casey and much smaller. I don't believe Ziggy could be a Nose tackle, he was a 4-3 pass rushing defensive tackle in college, which is usually who turns into 3-4 defensive ends. And he's also quite smaller than Casey. We need someone like Ted Washington of the browns. A big 6-5 350 pound force. They aren't that hard to find, and a lot will be cheaper than Casey.

TDSteeler
01-14-2010, 08:06 AM
There is a Scott Paxon out of Penn State on the roster listed as a NT.

I have no idea who he is. Is there any hope that he is being groomed to take over and that this really isn't as big a problem as it seems?

mulldog24
01-14-2010, 08:18 AM
The odds are that we don't switch to a 4-3. ( I brought it up a week ago and many people bashed me) However, I don't think we'd drop that much running 4-3 oppose to a 3-4. Like Ed said, Woodley and Harrison are not 4-3 OLBs. BUT, they could easily be 4-3 DEs, since they blitz 90% of the time anyways. Timmons would also be a beast 4-3 OLB.
IMO, here's what our 4-3 lineup would look like, considering we lose Hampton.
DEs= Woodley & Harrison & Kiesel as a backup
DTs=Smith & Hood
OLB= Timmons & Fox (Fox played some OLB in KC)
MLB= Farrior at least til we get some younger talent (Farrior lead the league in tackles as a Jet when they ran a 4-3)

Just sayin...
I actually agree with you very much on this. Also, some people don't think that Harrison could play DE in a 4-3 and I disagree. Elvis Dumerville came in to the league playing 4-3 DE and did very well and he is comparible to Harrison in size at 5'11" and 245 lbs. playing for the Broncos. Our harrison is listed at 6' 242lbs and is IMO much stronger than Dumerville.:thumbsup:

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 09:55 AM
I actually agree with you very much on this. Also, some people don't think that Harrison could play DE in a 4-3 and I disagree. Elvis Dumerville came in to the league playing 4-3 DE and did very well and he is comparible to Harrison in size at 5'11" and 245 lbs. playing for the Broncos. Our harrison is listed at 6' 242lbs and is IMO much stronger than Dumerville.:thumbsup:

Dumervil was playing in a 3-4 this year....not a 4-3.

The thing with a 4-3 is that you dont want BOTH DE's to be undersized, or you can get run on by opposing offenses. You probably want guys that are 270-280 and 6'4" with speed. Jared Allen, Patrick Kearney, Julius Peppers, Michael Strahan type guys.

Keisel could drop some weight and get back to that size to play 1 DE. Woodley could play the other. That would leave Hood, Smith, Eason, Harris to play the DT position. We could make it work..........but I still dont see how you take a pro bowler and DPOY (Harrison) and make him change positions???

The other thing is that the Tampa-2 defense is predicated on keeping 2 deep safetys and keeping everything in front of you. Do we really want Troy Polamalu 20 yards from the line of scrimmage all the time????? I dont see it happening.

SteelGhost
01-14-2010, 09:59 AM
Very interesting thread.

Who would be Potsie's backup (and eventual replacement) if we go 4-3 ?

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 10:00 AM
There is a Scott Paxon out of Penn State on the roster listed as a NT.

I have no idea who he is. Is there any hope that he is being groomed to take over and that this really isn't as big a problem as it seems?

No, he has been to camp a couple seasons in a row and could never beat out Hoke. He was just practice squad material.

We should have taken Myron Pryor from Kentucky last year(6th round by the Patriots) to compete with Hoke. Pryor played in 13 games for the Pats as a rookie and at 6'1" 310lbs, he fit the bill as a NT.

Prok
01-14-2010, 10:08 AM
IMO Lamarr Woodley would be a beast DE in the 4-3 and Timmons would be a beast LB in the 4-3.

I got a question for those more knowledgeable than me tho. Why would Timmons be better suited at OLB in the 4-3 ?

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 10:19 AM
IMO Lamarr Woodley would be a beast DE in the 4-3 and Timmons would be a beast LB in the 4-3.

I got a question for those more knowledgeable than me tho. Why would Timmons be better suited at OLB in the 4-3 ?

In a 3-4, the offensive guards are blocking down on the ILB in the run game. In a 4-3, the DT has the OG, the DE has the OT.....which leaves the LB on a back, which is a better matchup for Timmons. The principle is to put big blockers on big defenders first.

The weakside OLB in a 4-3 generally just flows to the ball and many see Timmons as a Derrick Brooks clone in that scheme.

OneForTheToe
01-14-2010, 11:12 AM
I still don't see us switching to a 4-3 as our bread and butter D, as long as coach Dad is the coordinator, mainly for the reasons that El-Gonzo Jackson stated regarding Harrison. That does not mean we will not insert the 4-3 into more situations next season. There is nothing wrong with using a little hybrid when the situation might call for it.

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 01:23 PM
Dumervil was playing in a 3-4 this year....not a 4-3.

The thing with a 4-3 is that you dont want BOTH DE's to be undersized, or you can get run on by opposing offenses. You probably want guys that are 270-280 and 6'4" with speed. Jared Allen, Patrick Kearney, Julius Peppers, Michael Strahan type guys.

Keisel could drop some weight and get back to that size to play 1 DE. Woodley could play the other. That would leave Hood, Smith, Eason, Harris to play the DT position. We could make it work..........but I still dont see how you take a pro bowler and DPOY (Harrison) and make him change positions???

The other thing is that the Tampa-2 defense is predicated on keeping 2 deep safetys and keeping everything in front of you. Do we really want Troy Polamalu 20 yards from the line of scrimmage all the time????? I dont see it happening.

There are many DEs smaller than James Harrison and also a lot weaker, and Woodley is nowhere near undersized. I still believe James Harrison could bull rush OTs right off the line of scrimmage. Elvis Dumervil did it when he was playing DE in the Broncos 4-3, so why couldn't Harrison? Someone did bring up a good point about backups. We don't have much depth, but it'd be easy to bring in guys that knew how to run the 4-3.

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 01:28 PM
And Troy wouldn't be 20 yards off the line of scrimmage all the time. There is still 7 people in the box. They can do a lot of the same things with Troy and maybe even add some more things to it. I think you would see our defensive line get a lot of pressure with out blitzing. We would actually have a pass rushing DT in Ziggy Hood.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 02:28 PM
IMO Lamarr Woodley would be a beast DE in the 4-3 and Timmons would be a beast LB in the 4-3.

I got a question for those more knowledgeable than me tho. Why would Timmons be better suited at OLB in the 4-3 ?

Because of his size and speed. He's listed at 6'1, 235, thats typically a big outside linebacker, but its small for an inside linebacker. Farrior is the typical middle Linebacker. Broad shoulders, 245, strong lower body. Timmons has a strong upper body, and a weak but fast lower body, his squat is only 450. The typical high school player can do 450. Timmons strong calves make up for his lack of lower body strength because he is very fast for a linebacker. His 40 was 4.60 (average linebacker speed, but some people say he didn't go 100% at the combine), but on the field you can clearly see he is much faster than any linebacker out there.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 02:36 PM
There are many DEs smaller than James Harrison and also a lot weaker, and Woodley is nowhere near undersized. I still believe James Harrison could bull rush OTs right off the line of scrimmage. Elvis Dumervil did it when he was playing DE in the Broncos 4-3, so why couldn't Harrison? Someone did bring up a good point about backups. We don't have much depth, but it'd be easy to bring in guys that knew how to run the 4-3.

Harrison can't rush from a 3 point stance, he's always down in a low 2 point stance when he rushes (unlike woodley, porter and haggans who sometimes go down to a 3 point when they rush). This is where he'd get beat in the run. If he is a DE, offensive linemen would know he's always going to rush, so they can do certain moves to contain him and destroy him in the run. But Harrison is very strong, he can almost squat 700 pounds, which is more than the average linemen, so maybe he can have the upper hand with just sheer strength.

acumen
01-14-2010, 03:13 PM
Because of his size and speed. He's listed at 6'1, 235, thats typically a big outside linebacker, but its small for an inside linebacker. Farrior is the typical middle Linebacker. Broad shoulders, 245, strong lower body. Timmons has a strong upper body, and a weak but fast lower body, his squat is only 450. The typical high school player can do 450. Timmons strong calves make up for his lack of lower body strength because he is very fast for a linebacker. His 40 was 4.60 (average linebacker speed, but some people say he didn't go 100% at the combine), but on the field you can clearly see he is much faster than any linebacker out there.

Forgive my ignorance here, but if Timmons is a big outside linebacker at 6'1 235, how come Harrison couldn't stick at OLB being 6'0 240? Too slow or weak or something? Or just because he's more geared up to rush the passer? If he can stick back there, it makes everything a little more interesting seeing it as...

Keisel - Smith - Hood - Woodley
Harrison - Farrior - Timmons

I'm not too well versed in the difference between the 3/4 OLB and the 4/3 DE, if anyone could educate me I love learning stuff though! :tt02:

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 03:28 PM
Forgive my ignorance here, but if Timmons is a big outside linebacker at 6'1 235, how come Harrison couldn't stick at OLB being 6'0 240? Too slow or weak or something? Or just because he's more geared up to rush the passer? If he can stick back there, it makes everything a little more interesting seeing it as...

Keisel - Smith - Hood - Woodley
Harrison - Farrior - Timmons

I'm not too well versed in the difference between the 3/4 OLB and the 4/3 DE, if anyone could educate me I love learning stuff though! :tt02:

That's a good point. IMO, Harrison doesn't have the speed and athleticism to play 4-3 OLB. In the 4-3, the OLBs are in coverage a lot. Idk how well Harrison would fair in that, but he has made some nice plays in coverage over the years. I think you could leave Harrison there, and stick Kiesel at the DE spot though. I doubt the 4-3 idea will happen, even though, IMO, our pass rush would be dangerous.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 03:32 PM
Forgive my ignorance here, but if Timmons is a big outside linebacker at 6'1 235, how come Harrison couldn't stick at OLB being 6'0 240? Too slow or weak or something? Or just because he's more geared up to rush the passer? If he can stick back there, it makes everything a little more interesting seeing it as...

Keisel - Smith - Hood - Woodley
Harrison - Farrior - Timmons

I'm not too well versed in the difference between the 3/4 OLB and the 4/3 DE, if anyone could educate me I love learning stuff though! :tt02:

Harrison could go either way, depends on the defensive scheme. If we are running more zone, Harrison would be too slow, but if we are running a more traditional 4-3 defense, maybe with a good amount of blitzing, he'd be pretty good.

a 3-4 outside lineback typically has to be strong enough to pass rush and have quick feet to play zone. The 3-4 was origionally developed to stop the short passing game with quick linebackers and zone schemes. But then it became relivant that you need 4 rushers to atleast have some presure on the QB.

So 3-4 outside linebackers have to be strong enough to pass rush so they can be that 4th rusher, and have the skills too, and they also have to have quick feet to cover the backs out of the back field. Someone like LeBeau likes to mix up his blitzes, so any linebacker can be comming, but typically its always one of the outside linebackers. Thats why most 3-4 outside linebackers are former 4-3 defensive ends who are on the small side, like Harrison.

Harrison is the prototype 3-4 linebacker, he has quick feet and strength and knows how to pass rush. Woodley isn't that good at covering backs, but he just needs to shed some of the fat he's carrying, but he is a great pass rusher, he is similar to Dwight Freeney from the Colts, just with more strength.

A 4-3 OLB typically play outside of the tackles, and contain the run when its a run and pick up their coverages on the pass. They don't have much responsibility, but if you have fast OLB's you can play the pass well, and if they are strong and smart, they can play the run well. If they are just smart and play the run well, a team will attack that weakness

I hope that helps. I tried to keep it simple.

acumen
01-14-2010, 03:49 PM
SteelCurtain0815 + lionslicer, thanks alot. That really helped, I'm a little sponge for knowledge, especially when it comes to football...

So in the hypothetical situation that we DID move to a 4-3, having Kiesel and Smith to play the left side as big, run-stuffing types, while having Hood and Woodley (hehe, Wood n Hood) to attack the blind side would be an optimal personnel no?

The problem would be that, even if we did keep Harrison back at OLB, our depth there would be almost nill ( I can't really think of anyone outside of Fox who could stick back there) while we'd have way too much depth on the line, considering Bailey would have to move up to the line and fight Kirschke, Hoke, Eason, and Sunny Harris for a spot. And those 4 would all have to play DT in the 4-3.

Am I on the right track here?

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 04:01 PM
SteelCurtain0815 + lionslicer, thanks alot. That really helped, I'm a little sponge for knowledge, especially when it comes to football...

So in the hypothetical situation that we DID move to a 4-3, having Kiesel and Smith to play the left side as big, run-stuffing types, while having Hood and Woodley (hehe, Wood n Hood) to attack the blind side would be an optimal personnel no?

The problem would be that, even if we did keep Harrison back at OLB, our depth there would be almost nill ( I can't really think of anyone outside of Fox who could stick back there) while we'd have way too much depth on the line, considering Bailey would have to move up to the line and fight Kirschke, Hoke, Eason, and Sunny Harris for a spot. And those 4 would all have to play DT in the 4-3.

Am I on the right track here?

You're right. Only way that would work out is if we had 2 defensive tackles for run stuffing and then take them out and put 2 more in for passing downs. Then have a couple backups, Which is just a hassel, but high school teams do it a lot.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 04:59 PM
There are many DEs smaller than James Harrison and also a lot weaker, and Woodley is nowhere near undersized. I still believe James Harrison could bull rush OTs right off the line of scrimmage. Elvis Dumervil did it when he was playing DE in the Broncos 4-3, so why couldn't Harrison? Someone did bring up a good point about backups. We don't have much depth, but it'd be easy to bring in guys that knew how to run the 4-3.

Yes, there are undersized DE's that play in a 4-3, but why would you want to build a team like that??? Especially against teams like the Ravens with bookend OT's like Gaither and Oher??? They would maul the DE's and run all over a smaller D line.

The trend for most teams is to switch to a 3-4 anyways(Broncos, Jets, Packers, Redskins, Chiefs, etc) I cant see us going back to a 4-3.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 05:07 PM
Yes, there are undersized DE's that play in a 4-3, but why would you want to build a team like that??? Especially against teams like the Ravens with bookend OT's like Gaither and Oher??? They would maul the DE's and run all over a smaller D line.

The trend for most teams is to switch to a 3-4 anyways(Broncos, Jets, Packers, Redskins, Chiefs, etc) I cant see us going back to a 4-3.

Gaither and Oher are terrible against speed rushers :P Harrison isn't a speed rusher, he's only 240 but he's more powerful than most defensive tackles. I say we put him at Nose Tackle, he can squat almost as much as Hampton can. Just tell him to eat alot over the offseason.

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 05:49 PM
Yes, there are undersized DE's that play in a 4-3, but why would you want to build a team like that??? Especially against teams like the Ravens with bookend OT's like Gaither and Oher??? They would maul the DE's and run all over a smaller D line.

The trend for most teams is to switch to a 3-4 anyways(Broncos, Jets, Packers, Redskins, Chiefs, etc) I cant see us going back to a 4-3.

If Woodley and Harrison were DEs they wouldn't be undersized at all. I'm sure they would be right on league average weight for DEs. And for Harrison only being 240, his strength definitely makes up for it. I heard an announcer say once that Harrison was the strongest player on the team. I'm not saying we will switch to a 4-3, cuz I highly doubt we will, but the pass rush that we could possibly have is intriguing.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 06:33 PM
If Woodley and Harrison were DEs they wouldn't be undersized at all. I'm sure they would be right on league average weight for DEs. And for Harrison only being 240, his strength definitely makes up for it. I heard an announcer say once that Harrison was the strongest player on the team. I'm not saying we will switch to a 4-3, cuz I highly doubt we will, but the pass rush that we could possibly have is intriguing.

Woodley isnt undersized(but short) at 6'1 260lbs, but Harrison is. Osi Umenyoura is 6'3" 260, Julius Peppers 6'7" 283, Mario Williams again 285, Jared Allen 6'6 270lbs.

Generally you want speed and rangy guys with some mass on the end. Brett Keisel would be perfect if he dropped down to 275lbs like when he came into the league. Harrison is best suited to 3-4 OLB or a MLB in the 4-3.

If we draft Greg Hardy in april......then I think we might be making a switch.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 06:44 PM
Woodley isnt undersized(but short) at 6'1 260lbs, but Harrison is. Osi Umenyoura is 6'3" 260, Julius Peppers 6'7" 283, Mario Williams again 285, Jared Allen 6'6 270lbs.

Generally you want speed and rangy guys with some mass on the end. Brett Keisel would be perfect if he dropped down to 275lbs like when he came into the league. Harrison is best suited to 3-4 OLB or a MLB in the 4-3.

If we draft Greg Hardy in april......then I think we might be making a switch.

Harrison isn't smart enough to be a 4-3 MLB. No Offense to him personally, but he can't call plays, make audibles, dirrect a defense, and read a play all at the same time.

MasterOfPuppets
01-14-2010, 06:47 PM
Woodley isnt undersized(but short) at 6'1 260lbs, but Harrison is. Osi Umenyoura is 6'3" 260, Julius Peppers 6'7" 283, Mario Williams again 285, Jared Allen 6'6 270lbs.

Generally you want speed and rangy guys with some mass on the end. Brett Keisel would be perfect if he dropped down to 275lbs like when he came into the league. Harrison is best suited to 3-4 OLB or a MLB in the 4-3.

If we draft Greg Hardy in april......then I think we might be making a switch.

dwight freeney - 6' 1' ...268 lbs

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 06:48 PM
Gaither and Oher are terrible against speed rushers :P Harrison isn't a speed rusher, he's only 240 but he's more powerful than most defensive tackles. I say we put him at Nose Tackle, he can squat almost as much as Hampton can. Just tell him to eat alot over the offseason.

Gathier owned Harrison in 2008, he is a massive young man with good technique. Oher possibly has the top 5 best feet of any OT in the NFL. I can think of Clady....and that is about it for agility at that position.

Harrison uses leverage well while on the move, but put him nose to nose with a 300lb guy on a run play and the big man wins. Watch some film and you will know what I mean.

MasterOfPuppets
01-14-2010, 06:59 PM
Gathier owned Harrison in 2008, he is a massive young man with good technique. Oher possibly has the top 5 best feet of any OT in the NFL. I can think of Clady....and that is about it for agility at that position.

Harrison uses leverage well while on the move, but put him nose to nose with a 300lb guy on a run play and the big man wins. Watch some film and you will know what I mean.
if you look thru our draft group discussion you'll find where i stated many times that oher was the best tackle in this class... i've heard plenty of how well he's played this season , but not a peep about smith, monroe or the fatass smith. (i know he was injured but still) .... ya might wanna hop on the bruce campbell wagon...:whistle:

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 07:00 PM
Gathier owned Harrison in 2008, he is a massive young man with good technique. Oher possibly has the top 5 best feet of any OT in the NFL. I can think of Clady....and that is about it for agility at that position.

Harrison uses leverage well while on the move, but put him nose to nose with a 300lb guy on a run play and the big man wins. Watch some film and you will know what I mean.

I was being sarcastic lol
And I know Harrison got owned, thats why I didn't say Harrison was a speed rusher.
Harrison also uses different techniques to get to the quarterback, from what I've noticed is that he starts out using leverage with the rip move, then if he can't get there uses his strength and bull rushes and uses the club move, or jab, I always get the names mixed up.

But no matter the skill of a tackle, they tend to get beaten by speed rushers who know how to use the spin move. Have you ever seen Dwight Freeney play? He's never been dominated in a game as long as he's at full strength. The only way he is taken out of the game is if the tackle takes him to the outside, and if he spins inside a back comes up and takes him out or atleast slows him down, or maybe he runs into a guard or his own defensive tackle. And while this is happening, the quarterback is using a 3 step drop. 5-7 step drops against the colts defense leave quarterbacks helpless to attack from him.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 07:23 PM
dwight freeney - 6' 1' ...268 lbs

Yup, an inch taller than Harrison and 24 lbs heavier. Still Dwight Freeney is not known as a great run blocker...........which is why I think the Ravens will win this weekend.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 07:26 PM
if you look thru our draft group discussion you'll find where i stated many times that oher was the best tackle in this class... i've heard plenty of how well he's played this season , but not a peep about smith, monroe or the fatass smith. (i know he was injured but still) .... ya might wanna hop on the bruce campbell wagon...:whistle:

I was there with you on the Oher as a pass blocker, but never saw any evidence that he could run block well, which was a noted weakness. I may end up on the Campbell bandwagon, but for the most part I like to see a guy in action and havent seen any Maryland games.

When I saw Oher in Mobile, he looked good but raw, when I saw him at the combine I thought he moved like a TE. :jawdrop: Hope I get to see Campbell soon.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 07:29 PM
I was being sarcastic lol
And I know Harrison got owned, thats why I didn't say Harrison was a speed rusher.
Harrison also uses different techniques to get to the quarterback, from what I've noticed is that he starts out using leverage with the rip move, then if he can't get there uses his strength and bull rushes and uses the club move, or jab, I always get the names mixed up.

But no matter the skill of a tackle, they tend to get beaten by speed rushers who know how to use the spin move. Have you ever seen Dwight Freeney play? He's never been dominated in a game as long as he's at full strength. The only way he is taken out of the game is if the tackle takes him to the outside, and if he spins inside a back comes up and takes him out or atleast slows him down, or maybe he runs into a guard or his own defensive tackle. And while this is happening, the quarterback is using a 3 step drop. 5-7 step drops against the colts defense leave quarterbacks helpless to attack from him.

Thanks, I have seen Freeney play in my 30+ years as a football fan and a skilled OT WANTS a speed rusher to spin back into him. Trust me, I have an idea about the position. In fact, the thing a OT wants to see the most is the back of the rusher. An OT with a good base, kick step and punch like Marcus McNeil or Ryan Clady will hold Freeny off quite well. I even bet Gathier does fine with him this weekend.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 07:31 PM
Yup, an inch taller than Harrison and 24 lbs heavier. Still Dwight Freeney is not known as a great run blocker...........which is why I think the Ravens will win this weekend.

He's not a great run defender, but the way the tampa 2 defense is designed, it doesn't need great run defender defensive ends. The defense is designed for the line to disperse pretty much, and if the OL stays on their blocks, the linebackers will make a play, if the OL gets of their blocks and takes on the linebackers, the DL will make the play.

SteelCurtain0815
01-14-2010, 07:33 PM
Woodley is 270, and like I said before, Harrison's strength makes up for his size.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 07:39 PM
Thanks, I have seen Freeney play in my 30+ years as a football fan and a skilled OT WANTS a speed rusher to spin back into him. Trust me, I have an idea about the position. In fact, the thing a OT wants to see the most is the back of the rusher. An OT with a good base, kick step and punch like Marcus McNeil or Ryan Clady will hold Freeny off quite well. I even bet Gathier does fine with him this weekend.

I was a defensive end in highschool, and our coach always said don't do a spin move, because as an offensive linemen, he could take advantage of that. And you always get out of your gap. NFL DL coaches say the same thing... The thing is Freeney spins and wins. Most of his sacks have come off spins or pure speed rushing. Speed rushers are a dime a dozen, but it takes a highly skilled speed rusher to do what he's done. You might say a tackle will love to see him do a spin then shove him to the ground, but that hasn't stopped him has it? Obviously he'll get knocked down, no one wins every match up, but out of maybe 30 pass plays? he'll beat the tackle 10-15 times, he'll only get one sack, but a sack is just a stat, getting in the face of the quarterback and forcing incompletions and quick throws is the real win for a defensive end.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 07:41 PM
Woodley is 270, and like I said before, Harrison's strength makes up for his size.

Wood came into the league at 262 and is now listed 265 at NFL.com. When Harrison is run at by a 320lb O lineman.......the fact that he is outweighed by 80lbs normally means he is engulfed by the blocker.

Watch some games, record them and rewind to break down the play. Then......you will see what I mean. Jake Long run blocking vs. James Harrison.........Long wins 90% of the time.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 07:49 PM
I was a defensive end in highschool, and our coach always said don't do a spin move, because as an offensive linemen, he could take advantage of that. And you always get out of your gap. NFL DL coaches say the same thing... The thing is Freeney spins and wins. Most of his sacks have come off spins or pure speed rushing. Speed rushers are a dime a dozen, but it takes a highly skilled speed rusher to do what he's done. You might say a tackle will love to see him do a spin then shove him to the ground, but that hasn't stopped him has it? Obviously he'll get knocked down, no one wins every match up, but out of maybe 30 pass plays? he'll beat the tackle 10-15 times, he'll only get one sack, but a sack is just a stat, getting in the face of the quarterback and forcing incompletions and quick throws is the real win for a defensive end.

and I played O line in highschool and have coached it, attended coaching clinics, studies books on it and still play contact ball on both sides of the line. I get it.

Freeney does nothing different than lots of guys, he is just strong. He speed rushes the edge, but takes on the blocker and slaps opponents hands down to get inside their frame. Then, when they are leaning on him because he is too close, he spins and swats them by. That is why a lineman with a good punch and solid base will counter that by 1-keeping him at arms length and 2- not leaning to the outside so he can spin back in.

Dont worry, I can cure your insomnia by describing O line play, but trust me, Dwight Freeney does nothing different than many other rushers.....he is just a rare combinatination of size and quickness.

lionslicer
01-14-2010, 08:07 PM
and I played O line in highschool and have coached it, attended coaching clinics, studies books on it and still play contact ball on both sides of the line. I get it.

Freeney does nothing different than lots of guys, he is just strong. He speed rushes the edge, but takes on the blocker and slaps opponents hands down to get inside their frame. Then, when they are leaning on him because he is too close, he spins and swats them by. That is why a lineman with a good punch and solid base will counter that by 1-keeping him at arms length and 2- not leaning to the outside so he can spin back in.

Dont worry, I can cure your insomnia by describing O line play, but trust me, Dwight Freeney does nothing different than many other rushers.....he is just a rare combinatination of size and quickness.

He's beaten those O linemen with good punches, maybe pro bowl tackles now of days just don't cut it.
He's beaten Johnathon Odgen on every meeting they've had.
He beat Bryant McKinnie of the Vikings who is a pretty good tackle

This season when the Colts and Ravens met, the Ravens doubled teamed Freeney as soon as they relized he almost beat Gaither on a play until the running back came in. He played against both Gaither and Oher, and was double teamed each time.

He's beaten Orlando Pace
He's beaten Jake Long
He's beaten D'brickashaw Ferguson
He's beaten Walter Jones
He's Beaten Willie Anderson

These are all top tackles in the League. And he faced Pace when Pace was still a pro bowler. These are all tackles who might have let up 2 or 3 sacks all season, and about 1 or 2 came from Freeney. Not saying he's doing anything new, saying he's special and to most teams, unstoppable enough to have to double team every single play.

pancake
01-14-2010, 08:10 PM
I hate the 4-3 and hope we never change. We don't have the players to switch anyway.

MasterOfPuppets
01-14-2010, 08:44 PM
I was there with you on the Oher as a pass blocker, but never saw any evidence that he could run block well, which was a noted weakness. I may end up on the Campbell bandwagon, but for the most part I like to see a guy in action and havent seen any Maryland games.

When I saw Oher in Mobile, he looked good but raw, when I saw him at the combine I thought he moved like a TE. :jawdrop: Hope I get to see Campbell soon.

campbell isn't the best run blocker in this class and it would be fair to say he's a bit raw and inexpierenced, but with his athletic ability, measurables and strength, i'd say he's got more upside than any other tackle in this class. how that translates to draft stock remains to be seen, but it sure helped jason smith last year.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 09:27 PM
He's beaten those O linemen with good punches, maybe pro bowl tackles now of days just don't cut it.
He's beaten Johnathon Odgen on every meeting they've had.
He beat Bryant McKinnie of the Vikings who is a pretty good tackle

This season when the Colts and Ravens met, the Ravens doubled teamed Freeney as soon as they relized he almost beat Gaither on a play until the running back came in. He played against both Gaither and Oher, and was double teamed each time.

He's beaten Orlando Pace
He's beaten Jake Long
He's beaten D'brickashaw Ferguson
He's beaten Walter Jones
He's Beaten Willie Anderson

These are all top tackles in the League. And he faced Pace when Pace was still a pro bowler. These are all tackles who might have let up 2 or 3 sacks all season, and about 1 or 2 came from Freeney. Not saying he's doing anything new, saying he's special and to most teams, unstoppable enough to have to double team every single play.

Sorry to ruin your man crush, but Freeney had 24 sacks the past 2 seasons and never had more than 16 in his career.....Harrison had 26 in the past 2 seasons and a high of 16. Demarcus Ware has outperformed both in his career in the NFL.

Freeney is more hype and now on the downside of his career after 8 seasons. Contrary to your belief, he is not double teamed every play. In the regular season meeting this year, the Colts registered 0 sacks and Freeney was shut down by Gathier.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-14-2010, 09:30 PM
campbell isn't the best run blocker in this class and it would be fair to say he's a bit raw and inexpierenced, but with his athletic ability, measurables and strength, i'd say he's got more upside than any other tackle in this class. how that translates to draft stock remains to be seen, but it sure helped jason smith last year.

Yeah, I ran into a coach that was at Baylor a couple seasons ago when Jason Smith was a sophmore and he said back then the kid had incredible feet, but was raw. They knew that a kid that big that moved that well was gonna go high in the draft.

I still think Smith will pan out, but he needs some coaching and experience. Kind of like D'Brick Ferguson was, but less polished. I hope your boy Campbell pans out , especially if he is a Steeler.

lionslicer
01-15-2010, 06:00 AM
Sorry to ruin your man crush, but Freeney had 24 sacks the past 2 seasons and never had more than 16 in his career.....Harrison had 26 in the past 2 seasons and a high of 16. Demarcus Ware has outperformed both in his career in the NFL.

Freeney is more hype and now on the downside of his career after 8 seasons. Contrary to your belief, he is not double teamed every play. In the regular season meeting this year, the Colts registered 0 sacks and Freeney was shut down by Gathier.

Ware and Harrison have an advantage, they play in a 3-4, teams don't know when they are going to blitz, so they can't double team them as much, plus they usually end up on tightends and backs. Freeney is going to be comming on every play, so he's double teamed a lot. I saw parts of the Ravens game, he was double teamed. I also read that he said he was doubled teamed that game more than anything. His counter part Mathis was the one who got shut down going one on one with Both Gaither and Oher. Colts flip their DE spots every so often in each game to mix up it.

And its not about the sacks, sacks are just like touchdowns, they help your team, but you can be a huge difference in the game without them.

Dumervil had 10 sacks in 6 games, and it kind of fizzed out, during the last 10 games, he had 7 sacks, all comming against weak pass blocking teams including the steelers, eagles and cheifs.
3-4 outside linebackers usually lead the league in sacks every year. Only exception over the past couple years has been Freeney and Allen.
And Freeney had 13.5 sacks in only 9 games(he played in 15, but only started in 9, 6 games he was injured with a leg injury making useless against the pass).
Harrison had 10 in 16 games. And Ware had 11 sacks, most agaiSnst bad pass blocking teams. Greenbay, Seattle, Atlanta, Kanses City.
Jared Allen had 14.5 in 16 games, 4.5 against greenbay.
Dwight Freeney has sacks versing Miami, Arizona, Housten, Tennesee (x2), Denver, 49ers and New York Jets teams that don't give up that much. They are generally teams in the middle of the league in sacks allowed, but aren't terrible teams like KC, Greenbay, pittsburgh and Seattle.