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View Full Version : What exactly is considered a strong arm (Ben related)?


Rush58
01-15-2010, 04:14 PM
i read people dissing ben's arm strength but ben recorded long throws in the early 70s at the combine. I am wondering what exactly is consider a strong arm?

steelreserve
01-15-2010, 04:27 PM
I think they mean for short passes, you have to throw the ball so hard that if you're six inches off, it'll glance off the receiver's hands ... on medium passes, you need to throw the ball so hard that you either overthrow the receiver or skip the ball in the dirt 5 yards in front of him ... and for long passes, you need to be able to throw the ball 65 yards effortlessly, but throwing it 10 yards over the receiver's head and 10 yards out of bounds counts as extra distance, so it's really as good as making an 85-yard throw.

At least that's what I learned from watching JaMarcus Russell.

SteelGhost
01-15-2010, 04:29 PM
i read people dissing ben's arm strength but ben recorded long throws in the early 70s at the combine. I am wondering what exactly is consider a strong arm?

:huh:

Rush58
01-15-2010, 04:32 PM
:huh:

ben vs bradshaw thread

Rush58
01-15-2010, 04:35 PM
I think they mean for short passes, you have to throw the ball so hard that if you're six inches off, it'll glance off the receiver's hands ... on medium passes, you need to throw the ball so hard that you either overthrow the receiver or skip the ball in the dirt 5 yards in front of him ... and for long passes, you need to be able to throw the ball 65 yards effortlessly, but throwing it 10 yards over the receiver's head and 10 yards out of bounds counts as extra distance, so it's really as good as making an 85-yard throw.

At least that's what I learned from watching JaMarcus Russell.

good points but even cutler (and i've watched all his games) cannot get the ball 65 yards without stepping into it.

supa_fly_steeler
01-15-2010, 05:03 PM
lol mate ben roethlisberger wasn't alive in teh 70's let alone an embryo in the 80's

ricardisimo
01-15-2010, 05:11 PM
I'd have to assume he means throwing passes 70+ yards... maybe? :noidea:

Pentheon
01-15-2010, 05:21 PM
I thought he meant like a 70+ rating.

Im curious to see how he goes up against other qbs on a rating chart.

Psyychoward86
01-15-2010, 05:45 PM
lol mate ben roethlisberger wasn't alive in teh 70's let alone an embryo in the 80's

http://skepticalteacher.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/facepalm1.jpg

4xSBChamps
01-15-2010, 05:54 PM
good points but even cutler (and i've watched all his games) cannot get the ball 65 yards without stepping into it.

although it is not-only about the distance-thrown, I think most healthy & young QB can throw the ball 60+ yards, yet those considered 'strong-armed' can do it without stepping-up and/or planting both feet, possibly resulting in a quicker release, too:
if you watch Roethlisberger and Brady today, and Staubach from an earlier era, they usually get their body behind it, pull the ball back behind their arm-pit, and wind-up like a baseball player, to throw a long pass...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Roethlisberger.jpg

... while guys like Namath, Bradshaw, and Elway simply twist their upper body to get the ball behind their body, turn their hips, and the ball seems to come out with a flick of their wrist ~
this is about how-far Bradshaw had to rear-back before throwing a bullet - note the ball is at his arm-pit/shoulder, not 12" behind his body

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/TerryBradshawSB13.jpg

a few examples of Bradshaw in this video, and show his ability to prolong plays, run around & over defenders when needed, yet smoke the ball downfield on a rope with minimal body-motion:
the 50+ yard rocket to Swann @ 3:38 (against the KC Chiefs?) is typically how he threw long passes

2U1Xtci4PBw

although not-shown here, in the opening drive of the 1976 AFC Playoffs against the Baltimore Colts, Bradshaw threw a 76-yard strike to Frank Lewis, that as I recall easily traveled 55+ yards in the air, with even less motion, almost without moving his upper body:
bonus points in this video for showing Ron Shanklin, and a skinny Larry Brown, who evolved into a future 288-pound Pro Bowl OT, playing Tight End.

Strong-armed QBs aren't what they once were, with today's game being shorter drops with quicker developing patterns, and controlling the ball via 'dump-n-dink':
back in the day, they threw the ball to gain massive yardage downfield in one fell-swoop

lionslicer
01-15-2010, 05:56 PM
Ben loses arm strength with his shoulder pads, I believe he wears bigger ones than most quarterbacks because he doesn't want to get hurt. Other quarterbacks seem to have way smaller pads.

A good strong arm is someone who can throw it with speed to fit the ball into small windows. And have to be able to bomb it down the field without a big windup.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-15-2010, 06:08 PM
His draft year, Ben had a personal workout for scouts where he stood flat footed on the 50 yard line and threw passes to receivers. The receivers progressively got deeper until Ben was throwing TD passes to receivers in the end zone flat footed. One scout said..."I've seen enough" and left the workout early.

More velocity comes from the shifting of weight in the legs, hips and trunk rotation. Bottom line, the kid can throw it hard enough and far enough.

Rush58
01-15-2010, 06:18 PM
His draft year, Ben had a personal workout for scouts where he stood flat footed on the 50 yard line and threw passes to receivers. The receivers progressively got deeper until Ben was throwing TD passes to receivers in the end zone flat footed. One scout said..."I've seen enough" and left the workout early.


those are the same reports i was reading.

4xSBChamps, what about elway? i was watching his clips and his arm is simply amazing.

4xSBChamps
01-15-2010, 06:27 PM
what about elway? i was watching his clips and his arm is simply amazing.

when he had time & knew it, Elway would rear-back & sling the ball like a baseball player, and I recall him being a Yankee prospect, and using that wedge so the Colts wouldn't draft him, claiming he wanted to 'play on the West Coast' in Denver, but when he needed-to, he'd simply rotate his trunk, as stated by EGJ, and fire-off a 50 yard strike:
it's probably more in the mechanics of throwing the ball, and less about 'being born' with a Howitzer

revefsreleets
01-15-2010, 07:16 PM
I always based this on watching kids throw the deep-out IN GAMES. If you can throw a 25 yard deep-out on a frozen rope, you've got the arm-strength....

Steeldude
01-15-2010, 08:49 PM
the size of a QB's hand plays a significant roll also.

wootawnee
01-15-2010, 09:04 PM
Like in Baseball......A pitcher usually throws a round a 92 mph fastball. That is pretty fast.......Then you got Nolan Ryan who could throw it 103 mph.........This is a huge huge 10 mph difference........

Or you could compare arms in the outfield.......Put aynone's arm against Roberto Clemente's arm and he would win most of the time.......Some people are just amazingly gifted with power, strength,and mechanics.......Brad was just one of those guys like Nolan and Roberto.......

lionslicer
01-15-2010, 09:24 PM
You know who had a great arm... Kyle Boller, Ravens bust of a quarterback. He threw the ball 65 yards on one knee...

4xSBChamps
01-15-2010, 10:57 PM
... former Colt, Falcon, Raider, Vike, Skins, Weephawk, & Bear QB Jeff George had a million dollar arm, and a nickel head, which explains why he played with so-many teams...

:screwy:

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-15-2010, 11:50 PM
the size of a QB's hand plays a significant roll also.

:confused: How?

X-Terminator
01-16-2010, 12:14 AM
:confused: How?

Well, think about this - I have small hands, so I can't get as good a grip on the football, and thus I can't throw it really hard or far even though I'm a big guy. Having smaller hands also makes you more prone to fumbling, which was the problem with Dave Krieg when he was playing. If you have big hands, you can grip the ball tighter, which allows you to throw it faster and farther than someone with smaller hands, and are less prone to fumbling.

Steelman16
01-16-2010, 01:30 AM
Well, think about this - I have small hands, so I can't get as good a grip on the football, and thus I can't throw it really hard or far even though I'm a big guy. Having smaller hands also makes you more prone to fumbling, which was the problem with Dave Krieg when he was playing. If you have big hands, you can grip the ball tighter, which allows you to throw it faster and farther than someone with smaller hands, and are less prone to fumbling.

Ben also has one of the most extreme pump-fakes in the league right now. I haven't seen anyone who can go so far into the throwing motion and pull it back just before let-off. It has to be related to hand-size and amount of grip.

MACH1
01-16-2010, 03:06 AM
When you break fingers and leave x's in receivers chests, then you have arm strength.

brett favre

Steeldude
01-16-2010, 05:46 AM
:confused: How?

you can only whip the ball so fast. a smaller hand provides a lesser grip. the faster you can swing that arm without the ball coming lose, the higher the velocity.

WH
01-16-2010, 05:58 AM
Bret Favre is a player with absolutely monster hands. I saw a picture during one of the Jets game last year that showed him holding a football, it really looks like he's holding a brown baseball with how large his hands are.

Gnutella
01-16-2010, 11:48 AM
If you can't get as good of a grip on the ball, you end up pushing it as you throw.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-16-2010, 12:09 PM
you can only whip the ball so fast. a smaller hand provides a lesser grip. the faster you can swing that arm without the ball coming lose, the higher the velocity.

Terry Bradshaw had small hands. I remember seeing in pregame back in the early 80's that he gripped the ball so far up the top, that he only had his last 2 fingers on the laces of the ball........yet he put velocity on the ball.

I attended a coaching clinic on QB technique(run by QB that was a kinesiology graduate), and the power in throwing a football is more generated from a)trunk rotation at the waist, b)transfer of weight with footwork, c) a compact throwing motion like throwing a baseball....not wipping it like throwing a discus.

A guy can have small hands, yet if he generates velocity at the hand by footwork, trunk rotation and a quick and compact motion of the shoulder, elbow, wrist joints......he can throw it far and fast.

Psyychoward86
01-16-2010, 01:19 PM
u know who else throws hard































Jamarcus Russel

steelerdave1969
01-16-2010, 01:38 PM
i read people dissing ben's arm strength but ben recorded long throws in the early 70s at the combine. I am wondering what exactly is consider a strong arm?

I think all you have to do is look at most of Ben's long passes to No.17 and you will know all you need to know on how strong Bens' arm is. Mike Wallace has to slow down and wait on just about every throw from Ben, I just dont understand. If Ben hits him in stride he scores cuz there is pretty much no one gonna catch him with his speed.

Steeldude
01-17-2010, 02:44 AM
Terry Bradshaw had small hands. I remember seeing in pregame back in the early 80's that he gripped the ball so far up the top, that he only had his last 2 fingers on the laces of the ball........yet he put velocity on the ball.

I attended a coaching clinic on QB technique(run by QB that was a kinesiology graduate), and the power in throwing a football is more generated from a)trunk rotation at the waist, b)transfer of weight with footwork, c) a compact throwing motion like throwing a baseball....not wipping it like throwing a discus.

A guy can have small hands, yet if he generates velocity at the hand by footwork, trunk rotation and a quick and compact motion of the shoulder, elbow, wrist joints......he can throw it far and fast.

to whip the ball you do not have to throw it like a discus. the faster your arm follows through the more velocity. the trunk and footwork help with the velocity ad mechanics. a small hand tends to slip from gripping the ball before its release when the velocity(forward motion) of the arm becomes too great.

don't you think you would be able to throw it farther/harder if you had a larger hand?

i don't remember bradshaw having small hands.

Steeldude
01-17-2010, 02:47 AM
I think all you have to do is look at most of Ben's long passes to No.17 and you will know all you need to know on how strong Bens' arm is.

that comes from poor mechanics. BR throws off his back foot when throwing long. this creates a high, hanging pass. why ken anderson never corrected it is not clear.

4xSBChamps
01-17-2010, 10:33 AM
i don't remember bradshaw having small hands.

I don't recall that, either, and in-fact, if you watch Bradshaw on FOX's pre-game show, he frequently motions with his hands, and they seem larger than normal, but maybe it's because the angle, or the camera

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Bradshaw1982.jpg

they don't look that-small to me

:noidea:

it appears that Roethlisberger, unquestionably physically bigger than Bradshaw, only has his ring & little finger on the laces (with maybe his middle finger riding against the lace cross-lace), yet his index finger isn't near the point of the ball, like Bradshaw's

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Roethlisberger-hands.jpg

Man, have we been blessed to have these two guys wearing Black & Gold!

:drink:

WH
01-17-2010, 01:45 PM
Bradshaw only has little hands compared to Andre the Giant. Bradshaw put his hands around Jay Leno's neck when he hit (kiddingly) on one of his daughters. It looked like a regular person gripping a baseball bat. Given recent events, maybe Bradshaw should have squeezed a little harder.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-17-2010, 02:50 PM
to whip the ball you do not have to throw it like a discus. the faster your arm follows through the more velocity. the trunk and footwork help with the velocity ad mechanics. a small hand tends to slip from gripping the ball before its release when the velocity(forward motion) of the arm becomes too great.

don't you think you would be able to throw it farther/harder if you had a larger hand?

i don't remember bradshaw having small hands.

Yeah, I think if a midget or adult with small hands cannot grip a football, they are going to have trouble throwing it period. Do I think a QB who can palm a dinner plate can throw it farther than a guy with a medium size hand???? Not for a second.

You say yourself that its dependant on velocity of the hand at release. A guy with an average size hand is still going to be able to throw a football. Mike Vick apparanty has 8.5" hands and can spin it hard, while Colt Brennan had 9.5" hands and was.........Colt Brennan.

Steeldude
01-17-2010, 03:15 PM
Yeah, I think if a midget or adult with small hands cannot grip a football, they are going to have trouble throwing it period. Do I think a QB who can palm a dinner plate can throw it farther than a guy with a medium size hand???? Not for a second.

You say yourself that its dependant on velocity of the hand at release. A guy with an average size hand is still going to be able to throw a football. Mike Vick apparanty has 8.5" hands and can spin it hard, while Colt Brennan had 9.5" hands and was.........Colt Brennan.

i'm not saying the person with a bigger hand will always throw it farther than a person with a smaller hand. it's combo of arm strength/flexibility, torso rotation and mechanics. each helps with the ability of throwing the ball with speed/length. a bigger hand is a factor when passing. if my hand was smaller i would not be able to throw as far.

El-Gonzo Jackson
01-17-2010, 04:55 PM
i'm not saying the person with a bigger hand will always throw it farther than a person with a smaller hand. it's combo of arm strength/flexibility, torso rotation and mechanics. each helps with the ability of throwing the ball with speed/length. a bigger hand is a factor when passing. if my hand was smaller i would not be able to throw as far.

OK, if its a grip thing, then I could see there were issues. I think I have a medium to large size hand (about a 9" span) and in wet weather have an issue gripping a football now and then. I dont think if I had a 10" hand span, that I could throw any farther in dry weather.....because its a function of my mechanics and strength.

Either way, Ben has a strong enough arm, Joe Montana didnt and both seem rather successful.

4xSBChamps
01-17-2010, 05:01 PM
... I think I have a medium to large size hand (about a 9" span)...

just-curious, but what is 'span'... I measure 9.250" thumb-to-pinkie, and I've always considered my hands 'small'

:thumbsup:

markymarc
01-19-2010, 03:00 PM
Either way, Ben has a strong enough arm

And that is the key. Who cares if he doesn't have the strongest arm out of all NFL QBs.