Pass vs. Run Debate [Archive] - Steelers Fever Forums

dyce22

01-25-2010, 02:02 PM

Let's take a closer look at the teams that were left yesterday, and the two teams left in the Super Bowl.

First, the Jets and Colts...complete opposites. The Jets had the number one rushing offense in football while the Colts were 31st or 32nd, but had a very dynamic passing offense. Second, the Saints and Vikings...pretty even offensively. Both can pass and run the ball. Now, that makes three of the last four teams left that can effectively run the ball.

Thomas Jones - 3rd in the league (1402)
Adrian Peterson - 5th in the league (1383)

The Saints use a three back system, so no one back can be cited for their effectiveness as a running team, but let's look at their team rushing stats...

New Orleans Saints - 6th in the league (2106 combined)

Now, the argument against running the ball, and the fact that the league has become a pass-oriented league will be that Peyton and Brees are playing in the Super Bowl. While everyone citing Peyton and the Colts' success have a valid point on the surface, it's not exactly a full-proof argument. As for the Brees argument, well, their rushing offense is already in the top ten, so that argument already has holes in it, but I will dissect it a little more also.

As for the Peyton argument...when his career is finished, will he MOST LIKELY be called the greatest of all time? Yes. Will his stats back it up? Yes. Have you ever seen a more intelligent QB? If you say yes, you probably just hate Manning. On top of the fact that he is probably the single greatest QB to EVER play the game, he has one of the top Offensive Coordinators to EVER coach helping him. Tom Moore's philosophy of coaching is to let the QB have a certain level of flexibility and say in the play-calling. That's the reason he has the Super Bowl rings he has now. He allowed Bradshaw the flexibility to be great behind center...as he now does with Manning. Combine the genius of Moore's offensive philosophy with that of Manning's genius under center, and you have the success that they produce year in and year out. My point is that, Manning is not only the best QB in the league today, but the best QB to ever play the game...therefore, judging his success minus a running game is not a competent way of analyzing whether the passing game is more important than the running game.

Now, on to Brees. Well, again, he's unique. Also, as stated above, the Saints have a running game to help him out. With that said, Brees is still an exception at QB. Just look at his numbers. He has surpassed 4,350 yards every year he's been with the Saints. He has more passing yards in a four year span than any QB to ever play the game in that same time span (18,298). His completion percentage during that period is 66.85...and this year he set the CP record at 70.6.

The point is, these two QBs are UNIQUE. They are excellent, and no where near ordinary. Big Ben is no where near ordinary either. He is obviously going to be a HOFer, but he probably will never be mentioned as a top ten QB of all time. Whereas, Manning will go down as the number one QB to EVER play, and Brees may not be mentioned in the top 5, but he will be mentioned in the top 10 if he plays a few more years. Also, only one of those great QBs made it to the Super Bowl with NO running game, and that was the one who will be the greatest to ever play when it is all said and done.

The running game should be incorporated more into the Steelers' game plan if they want to make it to, and win the Super Bowl. Obviously, the SB has been won in the past without a dominant running game, ie. our SB victory last year, and may be won in the same fashion this year, but the fact remains that a dominant running game, along with a great QB is nearly unstoppable as an offense. The Steelers have the components to have this type of offense.

Angus Burgher

01-25-2010, 02:23 PM

I agree, but I'm with Bouchette on this one. The Steelers DO need to run the ball more, but more importantly, they need to run it better. I think Pittsburgh has a good back in Mendenhall, but we need at least one other really fast guy to take some carries. Like the Saints and the Vikings, having a capable two or three back system can work wonders in the running game. I also think that we need to make some improvements on the O-Line so that RBs actually have somewhere to run. Incorporating a fullback would also be a good idea.

lionslicer

01-25-2010, 02:33 PM

Steelers need to run more because of their defense... Years the steelers passed the most are years the defense wasn't so steller. And don't count stats, this year should show stats mean nothing in this games. Especially since the Steelers had a top 4 defense, and lost 7 games in the 2nd half of games.. Its all averages. If a defense does amazing in the first half, and crappy in the 2nd half, it can average out to a top 10 defense. Raiders had a top 10 defense a couple years ago, did they win more than 5 games? no...

Curtain_of_Steel

01-25-2010, 02:33 PM

lionslicer

01-25-2010, 02:41 PM

I fail to understand the debate that is forever going on with this.

Rooney stated, "more effecitively" Never did say, we need to run the ball more. Hidden there in, is if you run it better, you will probably run it more. But effective is the key word.

The Steelers would run the ball more if the defense held a 4th quarter lead. Instead the last 14 plays are all passing because we need to move 80 yards for a td for the winning score. You can't do this running the ball with 2 min's to go.
We do not have bettis, with have mendanhall, we dont have the oline of 4 years ago, we have baby swiss cheese. Mendy gets the dropsy's at time and Tomlins trust goes out the door with him. Parker is the pounding back nor is Moore. You can't make filet out of sirloin.

Steelers defense wont, and can't hold a 4th quarter lead, the schemes aren't good for holding leads. LeBeau has always played conservative with leads, the only time his defense was great when we had a good offense was years we ran the ball more efficiantly, or more. Mendenhall averaged 5+ yards per carry, thats Jim Brown Status, why weren't we giving him the ball more?

Steelers 2008 defense was so good because we were playing from behind most games, and he was constantly on the attack. This year we had good passing offense that refused to run the ball to milk the clock in the 2nd half. Defense was conservative gave up a lot of points. Unless LeBeau changes his game plan, we have to run more... not saying its the right thing to do, but LeBeau is a good DC, only when his team is playing aggresive, not with 14 points leads... most 3-4 defenses in general give up leads... look at the Broncos, Patriots, Packers, Cardinals, Chargers.... all those team with so called "great" 3-4 zone defenses.

casteeler

01-25-2010, 04:00 PM

suddenly the saint-colt superbowl has everyone jumping off the running ship.First off if the vikings would have had 1 less turnover it would be the vikings in it and they had a nice effective day running.Secondly the jets inability to play50/50 football and keep drives alive killed them.Sanchez had one reciever that he was in sync with but the run was working for them as well. The steelers run faultered due to two facts.1 a bad offensive line ( why didn't we fight harder to keep Fanaca?) hopefully fixed by draft and free agent signing.2 I like mendy but his running style doesn't fit our running scheme which became evident the last week of the season when Parker ran all over the dolphins and sustained a fourth quarter drive. FWP bounces the run outside and gains extra yrds , makes people miss and moves the chains.Mendy is a straight ahead runner that need gaping holes opened for him and that is something our current o-line just can't handle.So let's not bash the run it does have a place in the NFL or maybe i just long for those days of the bus stepping on linebackers on his way for 6

dyce22

01-25-2010, 04:10 PM

Did anyone actually read what was written, or just come in and post based on the title of the topic? Just curious because it seems everyone is having their own little post to themselves, and not really commenting on the initial post.

Chidi29

01-25-2010, 05:51 PM

Who cares about other teams? Does it really matter that Peyton Manning can win without a running game and that the Jets have to win with one?

Do we have a Peyton Manning on our team? No.

Do we have a Nick Mangold, Ferguson, Woodey, Greene/Jones, combo? No.

Those teams are adjusting their style of play to the players they have. If the Jets had Peyton Manning, the passing game would be a focus. It's not a philosphy. It's just common sense. Play to the strengths of your team.

Having said that, the strength of this team is the passing game. While the running game can't be ignored - and I agree with all those who have said that it's really a matter of running the ball better in certain situations - the passing game will be the king for what appears to be a long time.

Northside Jonny

01-25-2010, 06:42 PM

Balance Balance Balance ! Unpredictability is the biggest key to successful Offense.

dyce22

01-25-2010, 07:24 PM

Balance Balance Balance ! Unpredictability is the biggest key to successful Offense.

I wholly agree, although I believe that the balance is USUALLY accomplished by establishing the run first, and evolving to the passing game via the play-action.

groundhogday

01-25-2010, 08:23 PM

What does Manning and Brees have in common that Big Ben does not? Manning and Brees play in a dome. Having a game plan to throw in 70% if the time in poor weather is absurb.

Balance Balance Balance ! Unpredictability is the biggest key to successful Offense.

I like what this guy said.

Northside Jonny

01-25-2010, 09:48 PM

I wholly agree, although I believe that the balance is USUALLY accomplished by establishing the run first, and evolving to the passing game via the play-action.

Seems like league wide a lot more teams are starting to try to setup the run via the pass. Personally I hate that way of thinking , if you pound the rock it wears down a defense a lot faster than this cutesy WR screen crap.

dyce22

01-25-2010, 09:53 PM

What does Manning and Brees have in common that Big Ben does not? Manning and Brees play in a dome. Having a game plan to throw in 70% if the time in poor weather is absurb.

.

I like what this guy said.

I agree about the game plan. That's why I want us to run the ball more...and more effectively. But, as for what Manning and Brees have in common that Ben does not...well, honestly, if you don't see that they are more intelligent pre-snap than Ben is, then you are lying to yourself, or haven't seen many Saints or Colts games.

The point I'm making is that for those advocating us passing majority of the time off of the basis that Brees and Manning are in the SB, they are two UNIQUE QBs who are more intelligent pre-snap than Ben is. It is not fair to look at those two QBs and analyze whether or not it is more effective now-a-days to pass the ball before running.

Great QBs in the past have used the run to set up the pass. It is not a knock on Ben, just a praise towards Manning and Brees' ability as a QB that they do not have to have strong running games to win...although Brees does. Look at Montana, Young, Aikman, Bradshaw...whoever in the past, and more than likely, those great QBs also had really strong running games as well.