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mesaSteeler
02-02-2010, 06:21 AM
Steelers commit to re-establishing run
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/print_665114.html
By Scott Brown
PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW
Tuesday, February 2, 2010

MIAMI -- The New York Jets led the NFL in rushing this season by following a similar approach to one taken by the Steelers in 2004. Pro Bowl guard Alan Faneca played on both teams, and he might have trouble recognizing his former one.

The Steelers passed the ball 56 percent of the time in 2009 -- they passed more than any other Steelers team in the 2000s -- and that stands in stark contrast to the team running the ball 68 percent of the time in 2004.

Such a discrepancy may show how far the Steelers have strayed from the philosophy of pounding opposing teams with the run -- and from themselves, as team president Art Rooney II recently suggested.

Rooney said one of the top Steelers' top priorities during the offseason will be moving toward a more run-oriented attack, a process that started with the hiring of new offensive line coach Sean Kugler last month. :applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

"I think we've got to get better at the run," Steelers tight end Heath Miller said. "I think when you're able to establish the run everything else just branches off that, the offense just kind of opens up. There were games this year when we didn't run the ball as well as we would have liked."

The Steelers had a 1,000-yard rusher -- second-year back Rashard Mendenhall -- but their touchdown rate of 48.2 percent when inside the opponents' 20-yard line ranked 21st in the NFL.

That is a reflection of the team's inability to consistently run the ball near the goal line and in short-yardage situations. Those shortcomings prompted Rooney to say the Steelers need to run the ball better in 2010 and that "it's certainly something that traditionally has been one of the foundations of the team."

The Steelers have run the ball differently since 2007, Bruce Arians' first season as offensive coordinator.

Arians has opened up the offense and has not had much use for a traditional fullback.

The Steelers typically use a tight end as a lead blocker in short-yardage situations if they run at all in them.

No play served as more of a flashpoint for fan and media criticism than when the Steelers went with an empty backfield early in a must-win game Dec. 10 at Cleveland. They tried to throw the ball on third-and-1, and quarterback Ben Roethlisberger was sacked on the play that set the tone in the Steelers' 13-6 loss.

There had been speculation that Arians might lose his job even though the Steelers had a 4,000-yard passer, two 1,000-yard receivers and a 1,000-yard rusher in a season for the first time in franchise history.

Arians survived what could be considered a minor shakeup to Mike Tomlin's coaching staff. But he may be under pressure to nudge the offense in the other direction after the Steelers have gone from running the ball 54 percent of the time in 2007 to 51 percent in 2008 and 44 percent last season.

"My last year there we kind of got away from that dedicated ground-and-pound aspect," said Faneca, who left the Steelers as a free agent after 2007 following 10 seasons with the team. "We were more of a mix-the-run-and-pass together. We weren't necessarily just trying to jam the ball down your throat."

The 2009 Jets and 2004 Steelers did just that. The two offenses were remarkably similar in that each protected a rookie quarterback by taking advantage of two talented running backs and a physical offensive line flush with first-round draft picks.

Perhaps not coincidentally, the 2009 Jets and '04 Steelers averaged 172.2 and 154.0 rushing yards per game, respectively.

If the Steelers want to get back to what they did in the middle of last decade -- they ran the ball 59 percent of the time in 2005 and averaged 124.5 rushing yards that season -- it may not happen right away.

No starters along their offensive line were drafted before the third round. And they haven't had an offensive lineman make the Pro Bowl since Faneca in 2007.

By comparison, three of the Jets' offensive linemen played in the Pro Bowl on Sunday night, including Faneca. All three were first-round draft picks.

The one significant change the Steelers made before the free-agent signing period and draft is replacing Larry Zierlein with Kugler.

Kugler, whose patchwork unit in Buffalo helped Fred Jackson rush for 1,062 yards this season, said the linemen that compete and finish plays are the ones who will be on the field next season.

What the Steelers do in the NFL Draft in late April may also be an indicator of how committed they are to running the ball next season.

ESPN NFL draft analyst Todd McShay said the Steelers could use their first-round pick (No. 18 overall) on an offensive tackle and play him there or move him inside to guard.

McShay said the 2010 draft class is deep at offensive tackle.

"I get the sense from talking to people in the league that (the Steelers) want to get back to becoming a little bit more of a physical offensive football team," McShay said. "As much as they love Ben and as much as they love throwing the ball, they need to be able to run the ball when push comes to shove."

Scott Brown can be reached at sbrown@tribweb.com or 412-481-5432.

MACH1
02-02-2010, 08:04 AM
"I get the sense from talking to people in the league that (the Steelers) want to get back to becoming a little bit more of a physical offensive football team," McShay said. "As much as they love Ben and as much as they love throwing the ball, they need to be able to run the ball when push comes to shove."

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit:

Curtain_of_Steel
02-02-2010, 09:31 AM
We shall see, but with the current cast, Big Ben is going to be passing again. The FO is not going to spend on quality Olinemen. The ones we have now have large cap hits and can't be cut. We may shed one and pick up one in the draft. However the secondary now has a glaring need for help. O showed we can get it done as is, D need help to fill the holes.

I will bet we are with in the same percentages plus or minus 3% of last years. This of course could change, but we are not the grind it out team we were years ago. they will not trade running and losses just to not pass the ball.
We do not this one game and lose, we are back to 70/30, lol

urgle burgle
02-02-2010, 09:54 AM
yeah were stuck with the OL we got for awhile. heres hoping that maybe a new OL coach may make a difference or the change in mentality at least. maybe Arians will just freak out and resign. oh well

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-02-2010, 10:28 AM
Scott Brown is a hater. I'm putting him on ignore.

Prok
02-02-2010, 12:01 PM
Ugh... Yeah let's just keep ignoring the situational play-calling and run the ball more. Running more cures all ills for this team !! :doh:

urgle burgle
02-02-2010, 03:09 PM
Ugh... Yeah let's just keep ignoring the situational play-calling and run the ball more. Running more cures all ills for this team !! :doh:

no....its not that...its that we consistently suck in situational play calling

red zone
short yardage
short 3rd downs

if we are able to run more effectively in those areas......we will definately win the Alamo bowl next year. or maybe the Tour de France.....whichever

steelreserve
02-02-2010, 03:14 PM
We ARE able to run the ball when push comes to shove. We just choose not to.

I don't think the offensive line is half bad at run blocking, and Mendenhall is the "complete" running back we've wanted for a long time. The problem is that we just drift off and get caught up in trying to be cute. I don't care whether we run 100% of the time or pass 100% of the time as long as it's what makes sense for the situation.

Prok
02-02-2010, 03:41 PM
no....its not that...its that we consistently suck in situational play calling

red zone
short yardage
short 3rd downs

if we are able to run more effectively in those areas......we will definately win the Alamo bowl next year. or maybe the Tour de France.....whichever

:sofunny: :sofunny:

BA's system is just more passing friendly.

Personally, i'd prefer a REAL FB in most formations for either pass-blocking or run-blocking but we won't really get that. We'll get to see an H-back go in motion then take himself completely out of the play leaving a free man headed towards Ben with intentions to knock him out.... But no worries, as most times Ben will avoid the would-be sack to make the big play.

We just gotta worry about that old Troy Aikman early retirement syndrome thing when the free rusher does cream Ben or the LB in coverage does when Ben scrambles..

:thumbsup:

Chidi29
02-02-2010, 06:13 PM
Read the article in the paper today and I gotta say, this is complete and utter garbage. It's the same old, "Fire Bruce Arians and kick his dog" implying we've heard a thousand times.

For starters to show how uncredible this guy is when he tries to use stats to prove a point, let's look at this statement.

"The Steelers passed the ball 56 percent of the time in 2009 -- they passed more than any other Steelers team in the 2000s -- and that stands in stark contrast to the team running the ball 68 percent of the time in 2004."

While that is probably true, those numbers are skewed. He's taking the total numbers from the entire season. No matter who you have at OC or what his mindset is, if you're down big late, you're going to pass. If you're up, you're going to run. Those kind of things can skew the numbers.

What I did was look at our pass to run ratio in early game/down situations. Those situations being the 1st quarter and 1st down. I then compared that to the rest of the NFl and Whisenhunt in his three seasons as OC. The criteria was simple; have a QB start at least one game and have a back with at least 50 carries.

Passes

1st Qtr: 117
1st Down: 208

Runs

1st Qtr: 101
1st Down: 205


Totals
Qtr: 54.7/45.3 - pass
Down: 50.4/49.6 - pass

Compared to the rest of the league....


First Quarter

Vikings - 50/50
Titans: 51.6/48.4
Browns - 51.6/48.4
Bucs - 52/48
Patriots - 52.1/47.9
Raiders - 52.4/47.6
Giants - 52.4/47.5
Falcons - 52.5/47.5
Bills - 52.8/47.2
Jaguars - 53.3/46.7
Broncos - 53.4/46.6
Cowboys - 54.5/45.5
Dolphins - 54.7/45.3
Bengals - 54.7/45.3
Steelers - 54.7/45.3
Jets - 54.7/45.3
Lions - 55.7/44.3
Redskins - 56.5/43.5
Cardinals - 57.4/42.6
Eagles - 57.5/42.5
Rams - 57.6/42.4
Seahawks - 58.4/31.6
49ers - 58.5/41.5
Ravens - 58.7/41.3
Texans - 59.6/40.4
Chiefs - 59.9/40.1
Bears - 60/40
Saints - 60.8/39.2
Chargers - 61.1/38.9
Packers - 61.6/38.4
Colts - 77.4/32.6

First Down

Raiders - 50/50
Steelers - 50.4/49.6
Dolphins - 51/49
Redskins - 51/49
Saints - 51.6/48.4
Cardinals - 51.7/48.3
Ravens - 52.4/47.6
Chiefs - 52.4/47.6
Giants - 52.5/47.5
49ers - 52.8/47.2
Patriots - 53/47
Cowboys - 53/47
Falcons - 53.3/46.7
Chargers - 53.7/46.3
Bengals - 53.8/46.2
Lions - 54/46
Texans- 54.1/45.9
Jaguars - 54.2/45.8
Packers - 54.2/45.8
Eagles - 54.7/45.3
Bucs - 54.8/45.2
Seahawks - 55/45
Vikings - 55.2/44.8
Colts - 56.2/43.8
Titans - 57.6/42.4
Bills - 59.3/40.7
Bears - 61.7/38.3
Browns - 61.9/38.1
Seahawks - 63.3/33.7
Jets - 73.7/26.3

We were tied for 13th in the first quarter and second on first down, only behind the perfectly split Oakland Raiders. That averages out to having us be the 7.5 most balanced team in the league.

To further look into the numbers, I then compared what Arians did this year to what Whiz did in each of his three year's as the OC. Same criteria applied. Those are as follows.

[2004

Passes

1st Quarter: 95
1st Down:133


Runs

1st Quarter: 125
1st Down: 255

Total

1st Quarter: 56.8/41.2 - run
1st Down: 65.7/34.3 - run

2005

Passes

1st Quarter: 97
1st Down: 125

Runs

1st Quarter: 94
1st Down: 112

Total

1st Quarter: 50.8/48.2 - pass
1st Down: 52.7/47.3 - pass

2006

Passes

1st Quarter: 122
1st Down: 192

Runs

1st Quarter:113
1st Down: 224

Total

1st Quarter: 51.9/48.1 - pass
1st Down: 53.8/46.2 - run

Arians was more balanced in the first quarter in one year while being more balanced on first down than Whiz ever was with us. And it should be noted that while the percentages were closer, in 2005 and 2006, Whiz favored the pass to the running game in the first quarter. And that was with worse weapons and a less potent offense. It should come as to no surprise that those numbers only increased as guys like Ben, Heath, and Holmes matured (And got paid in the cases of Ben and Heath).

Now I'm not saying that Whiz being more unbalanced than Arians in a lot of instances is a bad thing. I'm not trying to put any connotation on it. I understand why we favored the run with Whiz, just as I understand why we favor the pass with Arians.

But one thing is for sure. Anyone who says Arians is unbalanced, better be saying that Whiz was moreso.

I know this is fairly lengthy, so I'll finish up the rest of my response to the article in a new post.

MACH1
02-02-2010, 06:25 PM
Read the article in the paper today and I gotta say, this is complete and utter garbage. It's the same old, "Fire Bruce Arians and kick his dog" implying we've heard a thousand times.

For starters to show how uncredible this guy is when he tries to use stats to prove a point, let's look at this statement.

"The Steelers passed the ball 56 percent of the time in 2009 -- they passed more than any other Steelers team in the 2000s -- and that stands in stark contrast to the team running the ball 68 percent of the time in 2004."

While that is probably true, those numbers are skewed. He's taking the total numbers from the entire season. No matter who you have at OC or what his mindset is, if you're down big late, you're going to pass. If you're up, you're going to run. Those kind of things can skew the numbers.

What I did was look at our pass to run ratio in early game/down situations. Those situations being the 1st quarter and 1st down. I then compared that to the rest of the NFl and Whisenhunt in his three seasons as OC. The criteria was simple; have a QB start at least one game and have a back with at least 50 carries.

Passes

1st Qtr: 117
1st Down: 208

Runs

1st Qtr: 101
1st Down: 205


Totals
Qtr: 54.7/45.3 - pass
Down: 50.4/49.6 - pass

Compared to the rest of the league....


First Quarter

Vikings - 50/50
Titans: 51.6/48.4
Browns - 51.6/48.4
Bucs - 52/48
Patriots - 52.1/47.9
Raiders - 52.4/47.6
Giants - 52.4/47.5
Falcons - 52.5/47.5
Bills - 52.8/47.2
Jaguars - 53.3/46.7
Broncos - 53.4/46.6
Cowboys - 54.5/45.5
Dolphins - 54.7/45.3
Bengals - 54.7/45.3
Steelers - 54.7/45.3
Jets - 54.7/45.3
Lions - 55.7/44.3
Redskins - 56.5/43.5
Cardinals - 57.4/42.6
Eagles - 57.5/42.5
Rams - 57.6/42.4
Seahawks - 58.4/31.6
49ers - 58.5/41.5
Ravens - 58.7/41.3
Texans - 59.6/40.4
Chiefs - 59.9/40.1
Bears - 60/40
Saints - 60.8/39.2
Chargers - 61.1/38.9
Packers - 61.6/38.4
Colts - 77.4/32.6

First Down

Raiders - 50/50
Steelers - 50.4/49.6
Dolphins - 51/49
Redskins - 51/49
Saints - 51.6/48.4
Cardinals - 51.7/48.3
Ravens - 52.4/47.6
Chiefs - 52.4/47.6
Giants - 52.5/47.5
49ers - 52.8/47.2
Patriots - 53/47
Cowboys - 53/47
Falcons - 53.3/46.7
Chargers - 53.7/46.3
Bengals - 53.8/46.2
Lions - 54/46
Texans- 54.1/45.9
Jaguars - 54.2/45.8
Packers - 54.2/45.8
Eagles - 54.7/45.3
Bucs - 54.8/45.2
Seahawks - 55/45
Vikings - 55.2/44.8
Colts - 56.2/43.8
Titans - 57.6/42.4
Bills - 59.3/40.7
Bears - 61.7/38.3
Browns - 61.9/38.1
Seahawks - 63.3/33.7
Jets - 73.7/26.3

We were tied for 13th in the first quarter and second on first down, only behind the perfectly split Oakland Raiders. That averages out to having us be the 7.5 most balanced team in the league.

To further look into the numbers, I then compared what Arians did this year to what Whiz did in each of his three year's as the OC. Same criteria applied. Those are as follows.

[2004

Passes

1st Quarter: 95
1st Down:133


Runs

1st Quarter: 125
1st Down: 255

Total

1st Quarter: 56.8/41.2 - run
1st Down: 65.7/34.3 - run

2005

Passes

1st Quarter: 97
1st Down: 125

Runs

1st Quarter: 94
1st Down: 112

Total

1st Quarter: 50.8/48.2 - pass
1st Down: 52.7/47.3 - pass

2006

Passes

1st Quarter: 122
1st Down: 192

Runs

1st Quarter:113
1st Down: 224

Total

1st Quarter: 51.9/48.1 - pass
1st Down: 53.8/46.2 - run

Arians was more balanced in the first quarter in one year while being more balanced on first down than Whiz ever was with us. And it should be noted that while the percentages were closer, in 2005 and 2006, Whiz favored the pass to the running game in the first quarter. And that was with worse weapons and a less potent offense. It should come as to no surprise that those numbers only increased as guys like Ben, Heath, and Holmes matured (And got paid in the cases of Ben and Heath).

Now I'm not saying that Whiz being more unbalanced than Arians in a lot of instances is a bad thing. I'm not trying to put any connotation on it. I understand why we favored the run with Whiz, just as I understand why we favor the pass with Arians.

But one thing is for sure. Anyone who says Arians is unbalanced, better be saying that Whiz was moreso.

I know this is fairly lengthy, so I'll finish up the rest of my response to the article in a new post.

Yep, we all know that stats win championships.

Chidi29
02-02-2010, 06:36 PM
And who said anything about championships?

Brown is implying we're not balanced and we need to run more when clearly, balance is not the issue.

People who throw stats out as meaningless when faced with them usually don't have any better comeback. Easier to dismiss than dispute, right?

fansince'76
02-02-2010, 08:11 PM
And who said anything about championships?

Brown is implying we're not balanced and we need to run more when clearly, balance is not the issue.

People who throw stats out as meaningless when faced with them usually don't have any better comeback. Easier to dismiss than dispute, right?

Sigh....while I agree, I think it's only fair to warn you being fairly new around here that unless you want this turning into a 30-40 page thread that devolves into nothing more than "Arians sucks, no he doesn't, yes he does, no he doesn't....," you may just want to let it go....

Chidi29
02-02-2010, 08:26 PM
I've been in my fair share of Arians discussion on another board. I'm fine with trying to avoid derailing this thread about it.

However, I did want to prove the author of the article wrong. And you know that he is implying that our lack of success is Arians' fault.

X-Terminator
02-02-2010, 08:26 PM
If we go back to 68% runs with those weapons in the passing game, I might just lose my freaking mind.

Again, what we want to do is run the ball effectively in the right situations, not necessarily run it more often. As long as teams know you're committed to running it, even if you are a "pass-first" offense, it'll make the offense much more effective.

KeiselPower99
02-02-2010, 08:30 PM
Heath is right. When the running game is working everything else branches off it.

Chidi29
02-02-2010, 08:37 PM
Onto the rest of the article.

The first thing that needs to be pointed out, though I'm sure it's been done so already when the comments were first made, is that Rooney didn't say we need to run the ball "more"; rather, run the ball more effectively and consistently.

"I think Mike and I certainly agreed coming off the season that we need to run the ball more consistently to get to where we want to get to," Rooney told the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette yesterday. "So that's part of the thinking in the offseason: We need to figure out how to get better running the football."

"We have to get back to being able to run the football when we need to run the football, and being able to run more consistently than we have in the past season," he said.

Arians has also not had the luxury of having a Dan Krieder. He's gotten to work with camp bodies (John Kuhn, who may be having some success in Green Bay, but don't lie to yourself. Who was upset when he didn't make it out of camp with us? Billy Latsko) and roster fodders/special team guys like Carey Davis. Summers was terrible this year and isn't even a true blocker. I don't know how people keep forgetting that David Johnson was used a lot more in the Strong I as the season went along. It's like the guy doesn't exist.

It is not Arians' fault that we don't have a fullback. Blame Colbert, Rooney, and/or Tomlin. It's their calls.

And then quoting McShay, who gets "a feeling" that we "might" do something. Yeah, talk about hard evidence. Especially after making inane comments like having us taking a tackle. About as credible as Pinocchio.

Prok
02-02-2010, 09:12 PM
Chidi, you made some great points.

But this...

It is not Arians' fault that we don't have a fullback. Blame Colbert, Rooney, and/or Tomlin. It's their calls.

IIRC is wrong. I am of the understanding that Bruce's scheme has no place for a FB and under his advice we parted ways with Kreider because he had no use for him. Am i correct there ??

But I've stated over and over that balance was not our problem as well. Situational play-calling was HORRIBLE for us. Especially in the red zone.

Chidi29
02-02-2010, 09:20 PM
Chidi, you made some great points.

But this...



IIRC is wrong. I am of the understanding that Bruce's scheme has no place for a FB and under his advice we parted ways with Kreider because he had no use for him. Am i correct there ??

But I've stated over and over that balance was not our problem as well. Situational play-calling was HORRIBLE for us. Especially in the red zone.

Kreider was also around 30, blew out his knee, and had been a lead blocker for many years. It was time for him to go.

Arians does not have power over Tomlin and Colbert. If they want a FB, they can go out and get one. It's not like Arians is incapable of using a fullback; again, we saw a lot of Strong I with David Johnson in the second half of the season.

Steely McSmash
02-02-2010, 09:20 PM
Dude what's with all the stats.? The team Pres and coach said that they want to be able to run the ball more effectively. Great, go do it! I frickin love the run.

The points on the talent of the OL are old news but still vaild. Teams that can run the ball have talented offensive lines. The Steelers do not.

And to Curtain of Steel:
The FO is not going to spend on quality Olinemen. The ones we have now have large cap hits and can't be cut. We may shed one and pick up one in the draft.

We spend pretty handsomely on fair to middling linemen so why wouldn't we pay a good one? Next year is likely uncapped so they can cut who they damn well please as I understand it.

Right now I think Hartwig is average salary and the left side of the line is above average. They had to pay Starks a lot to get him signed to a long term deal after the Franchise tag. I kind of wish they'd let Kemo go to the Jets but they paid market value to keep the Big Juicy in Back & Gold. The right side is cheap, Colon because he's still young and Essex is a scrub basically.

There will be some good values in this draft for OL. I'd like to see one in the first three rounds. (and a true FB in round 5)

MACH1
02-02-2010, 09:23 PM
Sigh....while I agree, I think it's only fair to warn you being fairly new around here that unless you want this turning into a 30-40 page thread that devolves into nothing more than "Arians sucks, no he doesn't, yes he does, no he doesn't....," you may just want to let it go....

Been there, done that. :wink02:

MACH1
02-02-2010, 09:29 PM
And who said anything about championships?

Brown is implying we're not balanced and we need to run more when clearly, balance is not the issue.

People who throw stats out as meaningless when faced with them usually don't have any better comeback. Easier to dismiss than dispute, right?

How's this for a stat. 30th in red zone offense.

Prok
02-02-2010, 09:33 PM
Kreider was also around 30, blew out his knee, and had been a lead blocker for many years. It was time for him to go.

Arians does not have power over Tomlin and Colbert. If they want a FB, they can go out and get one. It's not like Arians is incapable of using a fullback; again, we saw a lot of Strong I with David Johnson in the second half of the season.

Kreider was still a very serviceable FB. Johnson fits into the TE/H-back role. Usually you'll see Johnson go in motion more often than not and be an edge blocker rather than lead blocker. Big difference imo. I think that is the root of most anti-Arians ppl's problem.

Not gonna get into a pissing match here but i'll stand firmly behind my belief that BA NEEDS to improve the situational play-calling rather than just commit to running the ball more. I have no problem that we're built to pass a little more now with the weapons we have.

Better idea yet, IMO ?? Let Ben call his own plays and mix in some no-huddle ala Peyton Manning and Tommy Brady.Yeah, Ben is that good and would prolly learn to get rid of ball quickly more often.

My 2 cents.

devilsdancefloor
02-02-2010, 09:38 PM
i dont care if we pass or if we run, but we have to do better on both. Running or throwing the ball up and down the field from 10 yard line to 10 yardline sucks when you just put up FG or no points at all. dont throw stats at me cause there is only 1 stat i care about and that is a W.

groundhogday
02-02-2010, 10:24 PM
dont throw stats at me cause there is only 1 stat i care about and that is a W.

Well said.

Maybe points is about the other stat to care about. The steelers, for all their gaudy individual numbers, sucked at scoring. Middle of the pack this year. Throwing more doesn't equal more points.

I am going to laugh my ass off as I watch half this board freak out when we go OL in round 1. When the owner says getting back to its "foundation" of running....it's almost certain we're going OL.

MACH1
02-02-2010, 11:08 PM
Well said.

Maybe points is about the other stat to care about. The steelers, for all their gaudy individual numbers, sucked at scoring. Middle of the pack this year. Throwing more doesn't equal more points.

I am going to laugh my ass off as I watch half this board freak out when we go OL in round 1. When the owner says getting back to its "foundation" of running....it's almost certain we're going OL.

Nahhh...It'll be a kicker. :rolleyes:

tony hipchest
02-02-2010, 11:22 PM
the great thing is next year every opponent will be EXPECTING us to run on 3rd and 1. what better opportunity for arians to trick everybody and go deep with 5 wide?!?!?

we will rule the world! :muhaha:

"championship"

MACH1
02-02-2010, 11:37 PM
the great thing is next year every opponent will be EXPECTING us to run on 3rd and 1. what better opportunity for arians to trick everybody and go deep with 5 wide?!?!?

we will rule the world! :muhaha:

"championship"

Brilliant!!!!

They'd never know what hit em.

:laughing:

urgle burgle
02-03-2010, 07:44 AM
Heath is right. When the running game is working everything else branches off it.

true....but again it is mostly situational running that is needed.

by the by, gotta say thats the first time ive seen anyone put the steelers and marshall together as a sig.....interesting :popcorn:

urgle burgle
02-03-2010, 07:47 AM
the great thing is next year every opponent will be EXPECTING us to run on 3rd and 1. what better opportunity for arians to trick everybody and go deep with 5 wide?!?!?

we will rule the world! :muhaha:

"championship"

you my friend may be the smartest person ive never met....

hows the desert treating ya?

zulater
02-03-2010, 07:59 AM
Kreider was also around 30, blew out his knee, and had been a lead blocker for many years. It was time for him to go.

Arians does not have power over Tomlin and Colbert. If they want a FB, they can go out and get one. It's not like Arians is incapable of using a fullback; again, we saw a lot of Strong I with David Johnson in the second half of the season.

Don't kid yourself, Arains has a lot more input into personell issues than you think. Matt Spaeth ring any bells?

I've seen no evidence that Arains has ever lobbied for a legitimate fb, it's just something he doesn't seem to value as an OC. Maybe things will change now that Rooney's gone on record expressing a desire for a different look on offense?

markymarc
02-03-2010, 11:48 AM
All the Steelers have to do is get better at situational football. It's not about running the football more. It's about making first downs on 3rd and short, converting more 3rd downs and of course having a much better red zone percentage.

X-Terminator
02-03-2010, 01:04 PM
I am going to laugh my ass off as I watch half this board freak out when we go OL in round 1. When the owner says getting back to its "foundation" of running....it's almost certain we're going OL.

Why would people freak out if they go OL in the first round? The general consensus around here is that the OL needs more talent. If that's supposed to be a backhanded swipe at the "pass-firsters" and the "Arians lovers," then you fail. Even the most hardened Arians backers agree that we need a better and more talented OL, and that it's been neglected for far too long.

Nadroj 20
02-03-2010, 01:11 PM
Well said.

Maybe points is about the other stat to care about. The steelers, for all their gaudy individual numbers, sucked at scoring. Middle of the pack this year. Throwing more doesn't equal more points.

I am going to laugh my ass off as I watch half this board freak out when we go OL in round 1. When the owner says getting back to its "foundation" of running....it's almost certain we're going OL.

I dont see why anyone would or should be upset if we do take an OL first round.

My preference would be NOT to but im not going to be mad or dissapointed if we would

urgle burgle
02-03-2010, 03:56 PM
i want one in the first.....change of pace, since we never ever do that....not since ol faneca....and then went pretty well for awhile, then we get rid of some of these stiffs we still have.

Prok
02-03-2010, 04:28 PM
I will not be upset at all if we go OL in round 1. But my money says DT/NT or CB is pretty much a guarantee in 1 imo.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 04:58 PM
Chidi, you made some great points.

But this...



IIRC is wrong. I am of the understanding that Bruce's scheme has no place for a FB and under his advice we parted ways with Kreider because he had no use for him. Am i correct there ??

But I've stated over and over that balance was not our problem as well. Situational play-calling was HORRIBLE for us. Especially in the red zone.

Arians does not have power over Tomlin and Colbert. If they want a FB in the offense, they'll make it happen. And Arians doesn't seem anti-FB either. Again, David Johnson played there!

Just curious, what bad play calls did Arians have, that you can solely put on him, in the red zone?

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 05:03 PM
How's this for a stat. 30th in red zone offense.

Oh, now he starts using stats.

First off, if you want to use stats, at least get them correct. We were 23rd in the red zone.

http://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/red-zone-scoring-pct

We were 14th last year. Arians has shown the ability to at least get us to be an average to slightly above average team in categories like 3rd down percentage and red zone effeciency at some point in his tenure, it's just a matter of those things coming together.

Little disclaimer as I see that I'm getting attacked. In no way am I calling this offense perfect. I'm not saying everything is fine; I'm not saying that the running game is fine. It isn't. And by no means have I ever said Arians is an elite OC.

I'm just here to show that he's done a better job than people think and will give him credit for and will likely continue to do so as we continue to adjust to our more pass-oriented offense.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 05:06 PM
Kreider was still a very serviceable FB. Johnson fits into the TE/H-back role. Usually you'll see Johnson go in motion more often than not and be an edge blocker rather than lead blocker. Big difference imo. I think that is the root of most anti-Arians ppl's problem.

Not gonna get into a pissing match here but i'll stand firmly behind my belief that BA NEEDS to improve the situational play-calling rather than just commit to running the ball more. I have no problem that we're built to pass a little more now with the weapons we have.

Better idea yet, IMO ?? Let Ben call his own plays and mix in some no-huddle ala Peyton Manning and Tommy Brady.Yeah, Ben is that good and would prolly learn to get rid of ball quickly more often.

My 2 cents.

I'm assuming that we figured that Krieder was done after his knee injury. That wasn't a bad assumption to make all things considered.

Remember that we seal down our RG and RT a lot, especially on the pull plays we run so often. It's better to have an edge blocker than a guy trying to run into everybody, though as I recall, Johnson was used as a blocker to the inside more often than the edge.

According to Phil Simms, Ben is one of the top guys in calling his own plays.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 05:10 PM
i dont care if we pass or if we run, but we have to do better on both. Running or throwing the ball up and down the field from 10 yard line to 10 yardline sucks when you just put up FG or no points at all. dont throw stats at me cause there is only 1 stat i care about and that is a W.

Again, much easier to dismiss the numbers rather than try to actually put thought into disputing them, am I right?

Of course, I'm sure that if I was on the other side of the Arians spectrum, and brought up the negative stats, guys who are bashing me would be all over those numbers. Focus on just what fits your agenda and ignore the rest, no? That seems to be the attitude of a lot of Arians' haters I've experienced. And it's been fun catching them in their own hypocrisy. Maybe if I spend enough time on here, I'll be able to pick up on it like I did on another board I frequent.

"there is only 1 stat I care about and that is a W"

Then you must love Arians. Considering we've won a Super Bowl under him and have a winning record during his tenure as OC.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 05:13 PM
Don't kid yourself, Arains has a lot more input into personell issues than you think. Matt Spaeth ring any bells?

I've seen no evidence that Arains has ever lobbied for a legitimate fb, it's just something he doesn't seem to value as an OC. Maybe things will change now that Rooney's gone on record expressing a desire for a different look on offense?

Spaeth was Arians' choice? How so? And if I recall, Spaeth was supposed to be a great blocker coming out of college. If anything, that showed that Arians wanted to commit to having good blockers, not receivers.

I don't know how much Arians likes having a FB. If I had to guess, he probably isn't in love with the idea. I'm not going to try and say otherwise because that'd be idiotic on my part. But if we want to make an effort in getting a FB, because Arians is not the top dog nor is he incapable of having a FB in the offense, we can do so. It's just up to Tomlin and Colbert to pull the trigger.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 05:14 PM
Why would people freak out if they go OL in the first round? The general consensus around here is that the OL needs more talent. If that's supposed to be a backhanded swipe at the "pass-firsters" and the "Arians lovers," then you fail. Even the most hardened Arians backers agree that we need a better and more talented OL, and that it's been neglected for far too long.

We may take Iupati, but guards at 18 typically are slight reaches. And we're fine at tackle. So yes, in all liklihood, I'd freak out if we took a tackle.

zulater
02-03-2010, 05:25 PM
Spaeth was Arians' choice? How so? And if I recall, Spaeth was supposed to be a great blocker coming out of college. If anything, that showed that Arians wanted to commit to having good blockers, not receivers.

I don't know how much Arians likes having a FB. If I had to guess, he probably isn't in love with the idea. I'm not going to try and say otherwise because that'd be idiotic on my part. But if we want to make an effort in getting a FB, because Arians is not the top dog nor is he incapable of having a FB in the offense, we can do so. It's just up to Tomlin and Colbert to pull the trigger.

Spaeth was drafted because Bruce made it known he was a big proponent of the 3 TE offense. To BA the 3 TE offense is his version of the power I.

If he had stated a need for a fb I'm sure there would have been more of an effort to provide him one.

You do realize the Steelers draft players to fit their style of play? I mean LaMarr Woodley, Casey Hampton, Ziggy Hood were all drafted to fit the needs of a 3-4. So wny on earth do you think that Colbert wouldn't have made more of an effort to get a FB if Arains desired one?

Prok
02-03-2010, 05:40 PM
I'm assuming that we figured that Krieder was done after his knee injury. That wasn't a bad assumption to make all things considered.

Remember that we seal down our RG and RT a lot, especially on the pull plays we run so often. It's better to have an edge blocker than a guy trying to run into everybody, though as I recall, Johnson was used as a blocker to the inside more often than the edge.

According to Phil Simms, Ben is one of the top guys in calling his own plays.


Again ya make good points but I think we differ on how Johnson was/is used. From my view we run a TON of single back looks with the 3 TE set or the bunch formation.

Just because the player (Johnson) initially lines up in the backfield giving the traditional FB look doesn't mean he stays there. From my recollection far more often than not he'd go in motion. Well, Miller or Spaeth too for that matter.

And in my opinion Bruce has had a history of questionable play-calling. I lived in Cleveland when he was their OC. And i saw first hand how much those fans were in an uproar over his stubborn-ness and play-calling. So much so that it was widely believed that the public out-cry pretty much forced Butch Davis to fire the guy.

Again, I have great hope that the guy can fix the situational play calls. Hell, I have great hope he can just let Ben call the damn plays and run alot of no-huddle. But i'm not holding my breath waiting for him to change. His track record speaks for itself imo.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 06:40 PM
Spaeth was drafted because Bruce made it known he was a big proponent of the 3 TE offense. To BA the 3 TE offense is his version of the power I.

If he had stated a need for a fb I'm sure there would have been more of an effort to provide him one.

You do realize the Steelers draft players to fit their style of play? I mean LaMarr Woodley, Casey Hampton, Ziggy Hood were all drafted to fit the needs of a 3-4. So wny on earth do you think that Colbert wouldn't have made more of an effort to get a FB if Arains desired one?

So Arians trying to implement power running formations, even if that doesn't include a blocking FB (Who are becoming harder to find if I may add), is a bad thing? And again, the final calls are made by Tomlin and Colbert. The scouts and those two come together to make a decision. If I had to guess, Arians doesn't play a big role in picking who we should draft.

If Colbert really desired one, he would have gone ahead and gotten it. That's my point. Arians isn't the only one who can live without a true blocking fullback.

MACH1
02-03-2010, 06:44 PM
Spaeth was Arians' choice? How so? And if I recall, Spaeth was supposed to be a great blocker coming out of college. If anything, that showed that Arians wanted to commit to having good blockers, not receivers.

I don't know how much Arians likes having a FB. If I had to guess, he probably isn't in love with the idea. I'm not going to try and say otherwise because that'd be idiotic on my part. But if we want to make an effort in getting a FB, because Arians is not the top dog nor is he incapable of having a FB in the offense, we can do so. It's just up to Tomlin and Colbert to pull the trigger.

He's said flat out that his system does not need or use fullbacks. I don't know how much clearer that can get.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 06:47 PM
He's said flat out that his system does not need or use fullbacks. I don't know how much clearer that can get.

And yet it did when David Johnson played there.

Actions speak louder than words.

MACH1
02-03-2010, 06:53 PM
And yet it did when David Johnson played there.

Actions speak louder than words.

Really? Then why was he drafted as a tightend?

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 07:04 PM
Really? Then why was he drafted as a tightend?

Because that's what he played at Arkansas St. Because power I offenses are becoming a rarity in college football.

He was a good blocker in college who just needed to get used to the NFL and playing a new position. Hence the reason why he didn't start playing until the second half of the season.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 07:04 PM
And I don't see your point anyway.

He played some FB. Some TE and overall, was our H-Back as McHugh was two years ago. Point is he was used as a fullback. That's the bottomline.

zulater
02-03-2010, 07:07 PM
So Arians trying to implement power running formations, even if that doesn't include a blocking FB (Who are becoming harder to find if I may add), is a bad thing? And again, the final calls are made by Tomlin and Colbert. The scouts and those two come together to make a decision. If I had to guess, Arians doesn't play a big role in picking who we should draft.

If Colbert really desired one, he would have gone ahead and gotten it. That's my point. Arians isn't the only one who can live without a true blocking fullback.


And Dick LeBeau runs a 4-3 so Colbert would be an idiot to go and draft defensive lineman and linebackers that don't fit the system or wouldn't be implemented properly into the rotation.

:coffee:

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 07:19 PM
And Dick LeBeau runs a 4-3 so Colbert would be an idiot to go and draft defensive lineman and linebackers that don't fit the system or wouldn't be implemented properly into the rotation.

:coffee:

Which by that logic, shows that Colbert doesn't have a desire to run a 4-3, just as it shows he doesn't have a strong desire for a blocking fullback.

zulater
02-03-2010, 07:33 PM
Which by that logic, shows that Colbert doesn't have a desire to run a 4-3, just as it shows he doesn't have a strong desire for a blocking fullback.

It shows that he buys the "groceries" that are on the list given to him by the coaching staff.

lionslicer
02-03-2010, 07:38 PM
Steelers need to re-establish the run, even though the passing game has been good, the defense can't hold a lead, and the downside of passing 60-70% of the time is 3 and outs are more likely.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 07:50 PM
It shows that he buys the "groceries" that are on the list given to him by the coaching staff.

So it's a case of one of two things.

1. Colbert is shopping for the same items.

2. Colbert is allowing Arians to have power over him and Tomlin. Which is shoody FO management on his part.

zulater
02-03-2010, 08:03 PM
So it's a case of one of two things.

1. Colbert is shopping for the same items.

2. Colbert is allowing Arians to have power over him and Tomlin. Which is shoody FO management on his part.

No it's not. If you hire someone to do a job you give them the trust and the means to get the job done. And if your expectations fall short over time you either give them a shove in a slightly different direction or if that fails, right out the door.

Prok
02-03-2010, 08:35 PM
No it's not. If you hire someone to do a job you give them the trust and the means to get the job done. And if your expectations fall short over time you either give them a shove in a slightly different direction or if that fails, right out the door.

I've already placed cash on that option.


LOL

Stlrs4Life
02-03-2010, 08:46 PM
i dont care if we pass or if we run, but we have to do better on both. Running or throwing the ball up and down the field from 10 yard line to 10 yardline sucks when you just put up FG or no points at all. dont throw stats at me cause there is only 1 stat i care about and that is a W.


I agree, I wouldn't mind seeing that number down to 53%.

Chidi29
02-03-2010, 08:50 PM
No it's not. If you hire someone to do a job you give them the trust and the means to get the job done. And if your expectations fall short over time you either give them a shove in a slightly different direction or if that fails, right out the door.

It is not Arians job to evaulate the personnel. Colbert and Tomlin are way more invovled in free agency and the draft than Arians is.

They either trust or agree with Arians enough to have an offense without a Krieder-esque fullback. Either way, it'll ultimately fall back on them, good or bad.

ricardisimo
02-04-2010, 02:49 AM
Arians has made his disdain for the FB very well known;
Roughly how many plays did you see Johnson play at FB?
We're drafting a CB in the 1st, a big one that can also play safety. I'll lay money on that.
Kugler is the only upgrade the O-Line is getting this year, I believe.