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View Full Version : Ben has this over Brady & Manning


ETL
02-07-2010, 09:09 PM
When people talk about QBs, it always seems that Ben is placed behind Brady and Manning.

At least he as not LOST A SUPERBOWL like those two.

stillers4me
02-07-2010, 09:13 PM
Don't hex us.

Nadroj 20
02-07-2010, 09:15 PM
True, Brady 3-1 Manning 1-1 and Ben is 2-0.....but that will never get metioned and Brady and Manning will still be the examples as the best QBs in the league, i try to ignore it.

supa_fly_steeler
02-07-2010, 09:16 PM
eh who cares we got to see tracy porter juke it to the endzone!!!!

stillers4me
02-07-2010, 09:17 PM
eh who cares we got to see tracy porter juke it to the endzone!!!!

Did yoiu see Peyton get knocked on his ass? :chuckle:

SteelC7
02-07-2010, 10:17 PM
cant believe the colts lost, ha!! now tell me reg season mvp matters, the last reg season mvp 2 win the SB was 1999-kurt warner. so ben not having the reg season accolades, who cares? never lost a SB

boggedmaffus
02-07-2010, 10:23 PM
Steelers are the only AFC Champs to bring home the bacon since 2006... We should have stayed in the NFC ;)

Dino 6 Rings
02-07-2010, 10:40 PM
when people discuss the "greatest" QB of all time, I still contend, Championships Matter.

Bradshaw and Montana NEVER lost the Big Game with Multiple Appearances.

Aikman deserves more love, sorry but he's 3-0. That's big in my book. And I hate Dallas.

Favre, Elway, Manning, Marino, Brady, all have Losses on their Resume.

Psyychoward86
02-07-2010, 10:44 PM
Trent Dilfer > Dan Marino



I love these discussions :chuckle:

zulater
02-07-2010, 10:44 PM
When people talk about QBs, it always seems that Ben is placed behind Brady and Manning.

At least he as not LOST A SUPERBOWL like those two.

But he has lost two playoff games, both at Heinz field. So don't make out as though he's perfect. Better to lose in the Super bowl than to sit at home and watch the game. I love Ben as the Steelers qb, but advanatage Manning for 2009.

tube517
02-08-2010, 12:02 AM
Still a lot of football left for Ben but here's more for you.

Ben is 8-3 in the playoffs. Peyton 9-9. Advantage Big Ben.

Ben is the only QB other than Joe Montana to have a 2 minute drive to win the SB, with a TD. Advantage Big Ben.

Ben isn't perfect but he has never lost a Super Bowl. Period.

QUOTE=zulater;769291]But he has lost two playoff games, both at Heinz field. So don't make out as though he's perfect. Better to lose in the Super bowl than to sit at home and watch the game. I love Ben as the Steelers qb, but advanatage Manning for 2009.[/QUOTE]

lionslicer
02-08-2010, 01:35 AM
Brady had 3 great superbowl games, Manning had 2, even though he lost 1. Ben had 1 good superbowl game, the first superbowl I think he had the worst stats of any superbowl winning quarterback lol.

JEFF4i
02-08-2010, 02:27 AM
In his two losses, Big Ben posted up 27 and 29 points?

mikegrimey
02-08-2010, 02:27 AM
To the OP, to be fair, Brady has played in four superbowls and Ben has only played in two, so your comparison is a little misleading, and while we know Ben won SB40 against the Seahawks he put on the worst preformance by a SB winning QB in the game's history.

Stats, numbers and all that can be very misleading, I mean, hell, Eli Manning won a superbowl MVP and Ben never has, does that inherently mean Eli is better than Ben? Come now, such reasoning won't do.

mikegrimey
02-08-2010, 02:29 AM
In his two losses, Big Ben posted up 27 and 29 points?

Go ahead and chalk a bit of that 27 up to the Patriots having a 3 touchdown lead and simply waiting for the clock to roll down instead of playing defense in the fourth quarter. That game was not pretty, not for a second. Now the Jacksonville one---that was a thriller and Ben really pulled the team together in the second half, but don't try to bring up the 2004 AFC championship game as a positive.

JEFF4i
02-08-2010, 02:33 AM
Go ahead and chalk a bit of that 27 up to the Patriots having a 3 touchdown lead and simply waiting for the clock to roll down instead of playing defense in the fourth quarter. That game was not pretty, not for a second. Now the Jacksonville one---that was a thriller and Ben really pulled the team together in the second half, but don't try to bring up the 2004 AFC championship game as a positive.

Don't presume with my posts. I never said the 04 AFC was a positive, I said what it was.

We can dissect each game, including today's Superbowl where at the end Peyton could have put up 7 more...and didn't.

mikegrimey
02-08-2010, 02:39 AM
Pardon me if I assumed anything incorrect.

I was taking you bringing up the numbers 27 and 29 as an arguments for Ben's preformances in his two playoff losses, saying that, even though we lost, Ben played good enough to win.

If you weren't syaing that my apologies.

If you were, my argument stands.

Your remarks about Manning have nothing to do with this---he's long been identified as one of the biggest chokes in nfl history.

lillloyd
02-08-2010, 07:19 AM
I know this: when Peyton threw that pick, I immediately thought of BB's final drive last year. Peyton had more time and therefore less pressure, and he made a huge mistake at a huge moment.

It doesn't make me think less of Manning so much as it makes me admire Ben's performance on his SB drive last year that much more. That's as much pressure as any QB can be under -- down, late in the 4th quarter, in the SB -- and the fact that 'the greatest QB of all time" (Manning) could rattle and make a bad throw simply elevates Ben, IMHO.

:tt02::tt02::tt02::tt02:

kirklandrules
02-08-2010, 09:36 AM
o.k. here's why Ben is better than Manning and Brady. He's the only one that doesn't choke under pressure. Manning and Brady both sh!t bricks when they are hit. It's been shown time and again that when the threat of physical violence is present, both those sissy girls throw the ball with total disregard to the outcome. Ben is the only QB in the game that will stand his ground and make the throw. If you nail him on one play, he won't panic on the next. There's Phil Simms saying last night that Manning will pick you apart if you blitz ... that very play the Saints throw an all-out blitz and it's a pick six. The idea that Manning and Brady kill teams that blitz them is ridiculous. That only happens when the blitz is picked up. They are very good at picking teams apart when they stand in the pocket for 20 seconds without any pressure ... then again, my grandma could do the same thing. This sport is not that difficult when you have no pressure ... it's all about overcoming pressure and Ben is the only QB that can take the heat. And I thought it was unanimously agreed upon that Brady was part of a cheating system ... his titles were stolen ... he hasn't won squat post Spygate.
So, in sum: Brady is a sissy, Manning is a pansy and Ben is a football player. I love being a Steeler!
:tt:

supa_fly_steeler
02-08-2010, 09:46 AM
bEN IS made of steel and gold, brady is moulded under cheatism and false media time

zulater
02-08-2010, 10:27 AM
I'll tell you something Ben does have over Manning. After a playoff loss Ben at least has the class to stay on the field and shake the winners hand. I remember after our last playoff loss, as soon as the game was over Ben goes right over to Garrard and is seen shaking his hand, and you can see Ben is clearly congragulating him and wishing him luck in the next round.

Peyton sulked off reportedly and never engaged Brees or Sean Payton. Not a classy move Peyton.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-08-2010, 10:34 AM
I dont understand the insecurity of Steeler fans????

Cant we just appreciate great football players and be happy that we have one of them as our franchise QB, without having to try and tear down opposing team QB's to make ours look better?? It makes no sense.

Its like saying that Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford because she didnt have a mole on her face. :doh:

zulater
02-08-2010, 10:40 AM
I dont understand the insecurity of Steeler fans????

Cant we just appreciate great football players and be happy that we have one of them as our franchise QB, without having to try and tear down opposing team QB's to make ours look better?? It makes no sense.

Its like saying that Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford because she didnt have a mole on her face. :doh:

I love Peyton Manning, but I think he was wrong to sulk off the field like he did yesterday and don't mind saying so.

kirklandrules
02-08-2010, 11:00 AM
I dont understand the insecurity of Steeler fans????

Cant we just appreciate great football players and be happy that we have one of them as our franchise QB, without having to try and tear down opposing team QB's to make ours look better?? It makes no sense.

Its like saying that Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford because she didnt have a mole on her face. :doh:

Let's face it, Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford and that mole probably does have something to do with it.

And I have no problem appreciating the football players who happen to be signed with other teams. But Manning is a pansy and Brady is a sissy ... they are football players. Hell most QB are a bunch of whimps ... I just happen to think our QB has a pair. Don't hate me for that!

LVSteelersfan
02-08-2010, 11:06 AM
So, in sum: Brady is a sissy, Manning is a pansy and Ben is a football player. I love being a Steeler!

So what position do you play on the Steelers? :sofunny: :chuckle: :sofunny: :chuckle: :sofunny: [ jk ]

I do agree that Manning is a sore loser and a choke artist. I wonder who he will throw under the bus this time. Probably the receiver ran the wrong route on that pick six or something. Brady is just a dirty word who had his time and is on the way out.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-08-2010, 12:09 PM
Let's face it, Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford and that mole probably does have something to do with it.

And I have no problem appreciating the football players who happen to be signed with other teams. But Manning is a pansy and Brady is a sissy ... they are football players. Hell most QB are a bunch of whimps ... I just happen to think our QB has a pair. Don't hate me for that!

Sorry, Cindy Crawford is one of the all time iconic supermodels. Elle McPherson ended up as an extra on Friends.

I dont hate you, I just think you are a homer that hates on other team QB's to try and justify that Ben is better, which makes no sense.

Brady played the last month of the seseason with broken ribs (HARDLY THE ACT OF A SISSY).

Peyton Manning is one of the all time great QB's that has made (Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon, Brandon Stokley, Marvin Harrison and Dallas Clark) average to good receivers look better than they are.

I got my kid a #7 Jersey when Ben was drafted and never even played a snap for the Steelers. I knew he was the franchise when he got drafted. I still think both Brady and Manning are more refined and intelligent playcallers that work hard at their craft. Ben spends more time on the practice range than the film room, but I still love the kid as a Steelers QB.

Dino 6 Rings
02-08-2010, 01:40 PM
For the Record

Montana lead a Super Bowl touchdown winning drive of 11 plays 92 yards after getting the ball with 3:20 left in the game. They left 34 seconds on the clock after taking a 20-16 lead.

Roethlisberger lead a Super Bowl touchdown winning drive of 8 plays 78 yards after getting the ball with 2:37 left in the game. They left 35 seconds on the clock after taking a 27-23 lead.

Eli Manning lead a Super Bowl touchdown winning drive of 12 plays, 83 yards after getting the ball with 2:42 left in the game. They left 35 seconds on the clock after taking a 17-14 lead.

mikegrimey
02-08-2010, 02:36 PM
Let's face it, Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford and that mole probably does have something to do with it.

And I have no problem appreciating the football players who happen to be signed with other teams. But Manning is a pansy and Brady is a sissy ... they are football players. Hell most QB are a bunch of whimps ... I just happen to think our QB has a pair. Don't hate me for that!

How do you figure that Brady is a sissy?
Okay, i'll give you this year, he was. He whined and clamored for flags after being hit and didn't look anything like the tough as nails QB he had in the past.
If you're saying Brady has always been a sissy then you should just join Rush Limbaugh with your nonsense and slander. Brady was great at standing in the pocket and taking punishment to get his throws off, it was one of his best characteristics as a QB----like I said he didn't show it this last year, maybe apprehension about his injury.

Manning isn't a sissy, just plays smart enough to know he can't afford to get injured, the team would probably go 4-12 without him.

Dino 6 Rings
02-08-2010, 04:27 PM
How do you figure that Brady is a sissy?
Okay, i'll give you this year, he was. He whined and clamored for flags after being hit and didn't look anything like the tough as nails QB he had in the past.
If you're saying Brady has always been a sissy then you should just join Rush Limbaugh with your nonsense and slander. Brady was great at standing in the pocket and taking punishment to get his throws off, it was one of his best characteristics as a QB----like I said he didn't show it this last year, maybe apprehension about his injury.

Manning isn't a sissy, just plays smart enough to know he can't afford to get injured, the team would probably go 4-12 without him.

Ok, you have to understand that most of the people on this board hate Tom Brady and the Patriots. It has a lot to do with the loss in the AFC title game a few years back (the first AFC Title game loss to the Pats, Bledsoe 'the all time leading passer in Patriots history" is the one that beat us, not Brady) And the Cheating alligations make people on this board just livid.

Anyway, people consider Brady a sissy because really, they just don't like him. Take it for what it is. But Brady never face planted a car, almost died, had his guts taken out right before the season then came back, got sacked 40 times or more each year and then won a super bowl a couple years later. So people love to give Ben his "tough guy" label.

Manning, he's a great technical QB, but he isn't a "winner" It took him forever to beat the Pats, and get that monkey off his back, then he did win a Super Bowl, but if you look at the stats from that game, the Defense for the Colts got a TD and they had about 140 yards rushing too, a lot like how Ben won his first, with the other players carrying the water. When given a chance to be the man this past super bowl, he didn't get it done.

But I like Manning, and I don't really care about Brady, I say that team is over, the SB Loss still lingers in their minds and they aren't coming back from it, ever. (my opinion)

solardave
02-08-2010, 04:38 PM
eh who cares we got to see tracy porter juke it to the endzone!!!!

Yeah, I hope Ike was taking notes!!!

RoethlisBURGHer
02-08-2010, 06:21 PM
I really don't like using Super Bowl wins to compare quarterbacks. A Super Bowl win is a team effort.

In the Steelers first Super Bowl, Terry Bradshaw's job was simply to not screw up and lose the game. His stat line for SB 9 was 9/14 for 96 yards and a TD.

Franco Harris won the MVP with 34 carries for 158 yards and a TD.

The defense absolutely dominated in the game and even scored the games first point when they got a safety.

Also, if you use the rings argument, then you HAVE NO CHOICE but to say that Trent Dilfer was a better quarterback than Dan Marino because Dilfer won a Super Bowl and Marino went once and lost.

Cinnjerm
02-08-2010, 09:25 PM
I dont understand the insecurity of Steeler fans????

Cant we just appreciate great football players and be happy that we have one of them as our franchise QB, without having to try and tear down opposing team QB's to make ours look better?? It makes no sense.

Its like saying that Elle McPherson was hotter than Cindy Crawford because she didnt have a mole on her face. :doh:

I think it has more to do with the way people extol Manning as the greatest of all time yet he remains .500 in the postseason. If people didn't ride the dude's pole so hard I doubt anyone here would have anything to say about him. I speak only for myself when I say this, but I've had a primal impulse to call people out when they're the beneficiary of undo praise. Think of it as an aversion to false messiahs. Moreover, the way people dismiss Ben is kind of mind boggling. I guess people forget the only QB to ever lead a fourth quarter drive for a TD/win in the SB besides Ben was Montana (a man many champion as the G.O.A.T.) It's funny too, people used to hate Ben cause he didn't put up stats and now he does and they say it's because he has a great defense. Flacco, Palmer, Sanchez, Favre, and Rogers all had top defenses this year and how many of them made it to the SB (let alone win one). Even Flacco got more praise then Ben did at a similar point in his career. I remember how last year they tried comparing Flacco maiden voyage to Ben's. The difference, Ben had an undefeated regular season and won a SB the next year. "Well they won that chip in spite of him." Maybe so, but he still had one of the highest QB ratings through three rounds of playoffs ever. Oh, and did I mention that P Manning (the god QB) in his only successful SB run had a paltry three TD weighted against seven interceptions. That's not "G". :chuckle:

PS: In the postseason- Big Ben/Tom Brady>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P Manning (and it shouldn't even be an argument anymore). I'm just sayin'...

Shea
02-08-2010, 09:41 PM
Brady had 3 great superbowl games, Manning had 2, even though he lost 1. Ben had 1 good superbowl game, the first superbowl I think he had the worst stats of any superbowl winning quarterback lol.

Yes, he had the worst stats ever for a winning quarterback in 40, but we won so who cares?

So many people like to point that out but if you take into account his performance in the three previous games in those playoffs then you've got to honestly ask yourself if we even make it to that SB without what he did?

I say we don't.

I love Peyton Manning, but I think he was wrong to sulk off the field like he did yesterday and don't mind saying so.

It's an instant chaotic situation, plus his heart was hurting so I'm not going to hold that against Peyton.

He's consistantly shown throughout his career that he's respectfull and a good guy that seems to value sportsmanship.

If there was a different history behind him of such behavior - ala Belliprick - then it would be a story.

GBMelBlount
02-08-2010, 10:03 PM
It's an instant chaotic situation, plus his heart was hurting so I'm not going to hold that against Peyton.



Well said Shea.

There is a saying "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser."

I tend to agree with this.

zulater
02-08-2010, 10:20 PM
Well said Shea.

There is a saying "Show me a good loser and I'll show you a loser."

I tend to agree with this.

So when Ben embraced David Garrard on the field after a playoff loss and graciously congragulated him and wished him luck, he came off as a loser?

I'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill. I really do like Peyton Manning both as a player and a persona. But I think he came off slightly diminished by the lack of sportsmanship that he showed to Brees and Sean Payton. If the shoe had been on the other foot and Brees had blown of Manning like that i would have been dissapointed in him as well.

And with Manning, given how he uses his nice guy image to move product, I think it comes off even worse than it would for a normal player.

mikegrimey
02-08-2010, 10:53 PM
There's a HUGE difference between losing a wild card round playoff game and losing the SB---I don't remember too many people from opposing teams shaking hands after the SB, usually it turns into an instant celebration for the victors and the losers slump off the field, that's how I remember it mostly anyway.

I'm not a Manning apologist, but I honestly don't think he did anything discrediting by walking out and letting the Saints have their stage to celebrate.

El-Gonzo Jackson
02-08-2010, 11:21 PM
I think it has more to do with the way people extol Manning as the greatest of all time yet he remains .500 in the postseason. If people didn't ride the dude's pole so hard I doubt anyone here would have anything to say about him. I speak only for myself when I say this, but I've had a primal impulse to call people out when they're the beneficiary of undo praise. Think of it as an aversion to false messiahs. Moreover, the way people dismiss Ben is kind of mind boggling. I guess people forget the only QB to ever lead a fourth quarter drive for a TD/win in the SB besides Ben was Montana (a man many champion as the G.O.A.T.) It's funny too, people used to hate Ben cause he didn't put up stats and now he does and they say it's because he has a great defense. Flacco, Palmer, Sanchez, Favre, and Rogers all had top defenses this year and how many of them made it to the SB (let alone win one). Even Flacco got more praise then Ben did at a similar point in his career. I remember how last year they tried comparing Flacco maiden voyage to Ben's. The difference, Ben had an undefeated regular season and won a SB the next year. "Well they won that chip in spite of him." Maybe so, but he still had one of the highest QB ratings through three rounds of playoffs ever. Oh, and did I mention that P Manning (the god QB) in his only successful SB run had a paltry three TD weighted against seven interceptions. That's not "G". :chuckle:

PS: In the postseason- Big Ben/Tom Brady>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>P Manning (and it shouldn't even be an argument anymore). I'm just sayin'...

OK, if you think Ben got less press in his NFL offensive Rookie of the Year, undefeated regular season than Flacco....you truly have an inferiority complex. Matt Ryan got more pub than Flacco did.

And because you perceive that 4 time NFL MVP, Super Bowl MVP and Super Bowl winning QB's or guys with ony 3 Super Bowl rings and 1 NFL MVP have too much credit bestowed upon them......then go ahead and discredit them just as those who hack on Ben for having the worst QB rating of a winning super bowl team do. You are just as guilty for being a homer and not honouring the great game of football.

I have been a Steeler fan for 31 years and an NFL football fan for the same time. I hated Ozzie Newsome, Ken Anderson, Warren Moon, Jim Kelly, Andre Reed......but respected them as football players and think they are all hall of famers to me. Hating on great players just makes you a hater. Dont hate the playa....hate the game!!

lionslicer
02-09-2010, 01:34 AM
I really don't like using Super Bowl wins to compare quarterbacks. A Super Bowl win is a team effort.

In the Steelers first Super Bowl, Terry Bradshaw's job was simply to not screw up and lose the game. His stat line for SB 9 was 9/14 for 96 yards and a TD.

Franco Harris won the MVP with 34 carries for 158 yards and a TD.

The defense absolutely dominated in the game and even scored the games first point when they got a safety.

Also, if you use the rings argument, then you HAVE NO CHOICE but to say that Trent Dilfer was a better quarterback than Dan Marino because Dilfer won a Super Bowl and Marino went once and lost.

I'm sure there are backup quarterbacks with like 3 or 4 rings out there. There is actually a backup who has 3, he never started or played in a superbowl. Steve Young won a superbowl as a starter, but he has 3 rings because he was the 3rd string quarterback to Montana in 2 superbowls.

Anytime this topic is brought up about who has the most rings, I just wanna slap a Deion Sanders in the face... he tends the bring it up the most on NFL network.

JEFF4i
02-09-2010, 02:15 AM
I'm sure there are backup quarterbacks with like 3 or 4 rings out there. There is actually a backup who has 3, he never started or played in a superbowl. Steve Young won a superbowl as a starter, but he has 3 rings because he was the 3rd string quarterback to Montana in 2 superbowls.

Anytime this topic is brought up about who has the most rings, I just wanna slap a Deion Sanders in the face... he tends the bring it up the most on NFL network.

Well yeah, but it seems like a straw man fallacy.

I think when most people bring up the ring equation, they are referring to the fact of starting in the Super Bowl or coming in at some point.

Galax Steeler
02-09-2010, 03:44 AM
Did yoiu see Peyton get knocked on his ass? :chuckle:

That was so funny he was just sitting there like what in the hell happened.:rofl:

Vincent
02-09-2010, 09:27 AM
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10040/1034487-66.stm

Elite company

Peyton Manning missed a chance to join a very small Super Bowl club.

Entering this year, only six quarterbacks -- two of them Steelers -- had won at least two Super Bowls without a loss.

That number stayed at six, too.

The Colts' 31-17 loss to the New Orleans Saints meant Manning -- who led Indianapolis past the Chicago Bears in 2007 -- couldn't join Terry Bradshaw (4-0), Joe Montana (4-0), Troy Aikman (3-0), Jim Plunkett (2-0), Ben Roethlisberger (2-0) and Bart Starr (2-0) as the only quarterbacks to win multiple Super Bowls without losing a title game.

That is indeed elite company.

SteelersTilIDie
02-09-2010, 11:40 AM
it wasn't brady's fault that the pats lost to the giants, he gave them the lead with 2 minutes left, it's the defenses fault for giving up the game winning drive, and both brady and manning are better qb's than ben imo

Indo
02-09-2010, 01:30 PM
As far as Manning congratulating Brees after the game...

They showed the post-game press conference on NFL Network----Manning was asked that very question----how come he didn't seek out Brees and Shake his hand

He said (and I'm paraphrasing) that he was planning on calling/speaking to Brees later---that he saw that the Saints were all celebrating, getting ready to go up to the podium, etc. He recognized that it was "Their Time" and didn't want to take anything away from that.

Personally I believe him----I think he probably did call Brees later and speak to him

And I agree with Gonzo----to be a true fan of The Greatest Game on the Planet you have to respect those who have made this game great. And, love him or hate him, Manning is one of those players...

lionslicer
02-09-2010, 01:44 PM
I'll tell you something Ben does have over Manning. After a playoff loss Ben at least has the class to stay on the field and shake the winners hand. I remember after our last playoff loss, as soon as the game was over Ben goes right over to Garrard and is seen shaking his hand, and you can see Ben is clearly congragulating him and wishing him luck in the next round.

Peyton sulked off reportedly and never engaged Brees or Sean Payton. Not a classy move Peyton.

Thats a playoff loss, no losing team has ever stayed on the field to congraduate the winners. Why? Because as soon as they clock runs out, they run to the middle of the field and there is so much chaos going on. If Manning even atempted to go shake Brees's hand or Payton's hand, he would have been mauled by the Chaos.

kirklandrules
02-09-2010, 01:47 PM
it wasn't brady's fault that the pats lost to the giants, he gave them the lead with 2 minutes left, it's the defenses fault for giving up the game winning drive, and both brady and manning are better qb's than ben imo

It was Brady's fault. He couldn't score enough points to win the game. He laughed at Plexiglass when the comment was made that they wouldn't score more than 17 points, yet he couldn't get it done. I mean, come on ... "the best QB in the game" couldn't put up more than 14 points in the big game? Guess they didn't have enough tape of the Giants defense that year.

zulater
02-09-2010, 01:49 PM
It was Brady's fault. He couldn't score enough points to win the game. He laughed at Plexiglass when the comment was made that they wouldn't score more than 17 points, yet he couldn't get it done. I mean, come on ... "the best QB in the game" couldn't put up more than 14 points in the big game? Guess they didn't have enough tape of the Giants defense that year.

:thumbsup: Good one kirk :chuckle:

zulater
02-09-2010, 01:54 PM
Thats a playoff loss, no losing team has ever stayed on the field to congraduate the winners. Why? Because as soon as they clock runs out, they run to the middle of the field and there is so much chaos going on. If Manning even atempted to go shake Brees's hand or Payton's hand, he would have been mauled by the Chaos.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/02/AR2009020200069.html

Oh really?

:coffee:

lionslicer
02-09-2010, 02:01 PM
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/02/02/AR2009020200069.html

Oh really?

:coffee:

u win.
But thats kurt warner, he wants attention for being the kind guy in the NFL :P

zulater
02-09-2010, 02:12 PM
u win.
But thats kurt warner, he wants attention for being the kind guy in the NFL :P

And commercial man doesn't?

Seriously I'm a big fan of Peyton. Have been since his days at Tennessee. But he didn't handle this well imo. I'm not going to hate on him forever for it. But he could have and should have gone and shook Brees' hand on the field imo.

markymarc
02-09-2010, 08:35 PM
Forget the fantasy numbers...Ben will just keep winning games and Super Bowls.

Dino 6 Rings
02-10-2010, 11:36 AM
Also, if you use the rings argument, then you HAVE NO CHOICE but to say that Trent Dilfer was a better quarterback than Dan Marino because Dilfer won a Super Bowl and Marino went once and lost.

Wrong. I'm weary of the Dilfer Argument being tossed out there. Let me explain how you come up with the Greatest of All Time.

First when you talk about the "best of all time" you look at their over all numbers, staying power, and success as a QB over a long period of time. Those stats could include Carreer Yards, Attempts, TDs, Wins. Dilfer is in the 70s range in most of those stats, he's Out, the argument is Null and Void Every Single Time its used. We are looking at the Entire Picture, which includes Regular Season and then Championships.

So we talk about the greatest of the greats first and foremost. Then we determine the best of the greats by looking at their Rings and Super Bowl Records. Which I have for you below.

Starr 2-0
Unitas 1-1
Elway 2-3
Favre 1-1
Bradshaw 4-0
Marino 0-1
Montana 4-0
Staubach 2-2
Kelly 0-4
Brady 3-1
Aikman 3-0
Warner 1-2
Moon 0-0
Tarkenton 0-3
McNabb 0-1
Bledsoe 0-1
Fouts 0-0
Testaverde 0-0
Griese 2-1
Young 1-0
Plunket 2-0

As you can clearly see, the Two Greatest QBs of all time are Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw.

There is no argument. Sure, there are "stats" guys who have had terrific regular seasons, but no one else, has ever won 4 Super Bowls or gone to 4 and not lost at least once.

That's the bottom line.

Roethlisberger, 2-0. Not bad, but not best of all time either.
Manning 1-1 = Favre 1-1
Brady 3-1 could equal Aikman at 3-0, although, Troy never lost either.
Marino 0-1 = Bledsoe 0-1
Tarkenton 0-3 = Kelly 0-4
Elway 2-3 = Staubach 2-2

Montana 4-0 = Bradshaw 4-0

Prok
02-10-2010, 11:57 AM
Wrong. I'm weary of the Dilfer Argument being tossed out there. Let me explain how you come up with the Greatest of All Time.

First when you talk about the "best of all time" you look at their over all numbers, staying power, and success as a QB over a long period of time. Those stats could include Carreer Yards, Attempts, TDs, Wins. Dilfer is in the 70s range in most of those stats, he's Out, the argument is Null and Void Every Single Time its used. We are looking at the Entire Picture, which includes Regular Season and then Championships.

So we talk about the greatest of the greats first and foremost. Then we determine the best of the greats by looking at their Rings and Super Bowl Records. Which I have for you below.

Starr 2-0
Unitas 1-1
Elway 2-3
Favre 1-1
Bradshaw 4-0
Marino 0-1
Montana 4-0
Staubach 2-2
Kelly 0-4
Brady 3-1
Aikman 3-0
Warner 1-2
Moon 0-0
Tarkenton 0-3
McNabb 0-1
Bledsoe 0-1
Fouts 0-0
Testaverde 0-0
Griese 2-1
Young 1-0
Plunket 2-0

As you can clearly see, the Two Greatest QBs of all time are Joe Montana and Terry Bradshaw.

There is no argument. Sure, there are "stats" guys who have had terrific regular seasons, but no one else, has ever won 4 Super Bowls or gone to 4 and not lost at least once.

That's the bottom line.

Roethlisberger, 2-0. Not bad, but not best of all time either.
Manning 1-1 = Favre 1-1
Brady 3-1 could equal Aikman at 3-0, although, Troy never lost either.
Marino 0-1 = Bledsoe 0-1
Tarkenton 0-3 = Kelly 0-4
Elway 2-3 = Staubach 2-2

Montana 4-0 = Bradshaw 4-0

Wouldn't your SB totals be a stat as well ? I don't get the using of stats to argue against stats. Unless I read that wrong. Otherwise, solid argument.

As far as greatest all time QB goes.... IMHO John Elway has no peers. There is no other with his athletic gifts, instincts, superior arm strength and intangibles.

One could use his SB's lost against him but if you look at the entire picture you'll see that early in his career he played in a far inferior conference and had far inferior supporting cast than the other greats of his era. Those Bronco teams could NEVER be counted out in ANY game that guy ever played in IMO.

And one of the most memorable moments in NFL history will always be that first and 98 "Drive" AFCC at cleveland. 80 plus thousand screaming fans and a very good cleveland D could NOT contain that guy with huge home field advantage. Not to mention the adverse weather conditions and extremely pressure packed situation. He HAD to go the length of the field just to tie that game and he did.

IMO there is only one greatest QB of all time and that man is John Elway.

Dino 6 Rings
02-10-2010, 12:12 PM
My argument is to look at their entire Career of Stats and take them all together, and then include playoff wins and Super Bowls wins, which is the most important of all Stats in my opinion, then determine who is the Greatest of the Greats.

Hey, I don't argue against Elway, he's one of the best of all time. He even defeated a fellow Hall of Fame QB during a Super Bowl in beating Favre. I look at that as well.

Some HOF Super bowl matchups.

Montana beat Marino head to head that's huge.

Bradshaw beat Staubach Twice and Tarkenton.

Aikman beat Kelly twice

Eli Manning beat Tom Brady

Tom Brady beat Kurt Warner and McNabb

Rothlisberger beat Kurt Warner

Breese beat Manning

mikegrimey
02-10-2010, 04:49 PM
^ say what?


Those QB's weren't playing against eachother but against the opposing teams defense. Football is far too much of a team sport to simply regulate who's the best at this or that position becuse of SB rings.

Case in point, Warner played one hell of a game agains the Steelers in the SB---he played against what was easily the #1 D in the league that year and threw for nearly 400 yards (mind you against a team that only two previous teams that year even racked up 300 total yards against).
There was just so much time on the clock and Ben was able to put together an unbelievable game winning drive, leaving only 30 something seconds on the clock for Warner, not enviable or easy conditions to score a TD in.

Can you really say Ben "beat" Warner or outright played a better game just becuse he came out on top?

I don't think so. Both QBs played a great game in my view and either one could have easily been in the winner's circle at the end and would have deserved it. The head to head SB matchup is fun for chit chat but doens't really reveal anything about the quality of the respective QB's preformances.

Also consider John Elway "defeating" Brett Farce head to head. The Broncos strength was predicated on a good defense and overhwleming running game, to credit Elway soley with the spoils and victory and press of "beating" Farce is a bad argument.

Also consider Eli "beating" Brady.
Eli wasn't part of the Giant's phenomanl d-line that game was he? Now, yes, Eli put the Giants ahead twice with touchdown passes int he fourth quarter, but also consider the mistakes NE made----dropping easy INTs that Eli gift wrapped for them, failing to bring down a scrawny QB with 3 defenders putting hands on him etc. etc.
It's just not a very persuasive argument---fun to look at it that way, but not always indicative of who played the better game or who is the better QB

Prok
02-10-2010, 05:18 PM
^ say what?


Those QB's weren't playing against eachother but against the opposing teams defense. Football is far too much of a team sport to simply regulate who's the best at this or that position becuse of SB rings.

Case in point, Warner played one hell of a game agains the Steelers in the SB---he played against what was easily the #1 D in the league that year and threw for nearly 400 yards (mind you against a team that only two previous teams that year even racked up 300 total yards against).
There was just so much time on the clock and Ben was able to put together an unbelievable game winning drive, leaving only 30 something seconds on the clock for Warner, not enviable or easy conditions to score a TD in.

Can you really say Ben "beat" Warner or outright played a better game just becuse he came out on top?

I don't think so. Both QBs played a great game in my view and either one could have easily been in the winner's circle at the end and would have deserved it. The head to head SB matchup is fun for chit chat but doens't really reveal anything about the quality of the respective QB's preformances.

Also consider John Elway "defeating" Brett Farce head to head. The Broncos strength was predicated on a good defense and overhwleming running game, to credit Elway soley with the spoils and victory and press of "beating" Farce is a bad argument.

Also consider Eli "beating" Brady.
Eli wasn't part of the Giant's phenomanl d-line that game was he? Now, yes, Eli put the Giants ahead twice with touchdown passes int he fourth quarter, but also consider the mistakes NE made----dropping easy INTs that Eli gift wrapped for them, failing to bring down a scrawny QB with 3 defenders putting hands on him etc. etc.
It's just not a very persuasive argument---fun to look at it that way, but not always indicative of who played the better game or who is the better QB

Great points. One ironic thing for me is that this most recent SB seems to be a case of Drew Brees out-performing Peyton Manning against the same damn defense.

At least my view is that both defenses looked eerily similar.

Another thing of note would Be back in the 70's when Bradshaw and Staubach faced off in those SB's. The Steel curtain and Doomsday D were pretty similar as well.

Agreed though, you can't put QB vs QB when it was not the case at all.

Dino 6 Rings
02-11-2010, 11:06 AM
^ say what?


Those QB's weren't playing against eachother but against the opposing teams defense. Football is far too much of a team sport to simply regulate who's the best at this or that position becuse of SB rings.

Case in point, Warner played one hell of a game agains the Steelers in the SB---he played against what was easily the #1 D in the league that year and threw for nearly 400 yards (mind you against a team that only two previous teams that year even racked up 300 total yards against).
There was just so much time on the clock and Ben was able to put together an unbelievable game winning drive, leaving only 30 something seconds on the clock for Warner, not enviable or easy conditions to score a TD in.

Can you really say Ben "beat" Warner or outright played a better game just becuse he came out on top?

I don't think so. Both QBs played a great game in my view and either one could have easily been in the winner's circle at the end and would have deserved it. The head to head SB matchup is fun for chit chat but doens't really reveal anything about the quality of the respective QB's preformances.

Also consider John Elway "defeating" Brett Farce head to head. The Broncos strength was predicated on a good defense and overhwleming running game, to credit Elway soley with the spoils and victory and press of "beating" Farce is a bad argument.

Also consider Eli "beating" Brady.
Eli wasn't part of the Giant's phenomanl d-line that game was he? Now, yes, Eli put the Giants ahead twice with touchdown passes int he fourth quarter, but also consider the mistakes NE made----dropping easy INTs that Eli gift wrapped for them, failing to bring down a scrawny QB with 3 defenders putting hands on him etc. etc.
It's just not a very persuasive argument---fun to look at it that way, but not always indicative of who played the better game or who is the better QB

Oh, so now you basically argue is "team" and not QB, but here I am discussing the Best QB of all time, and using their SB records and performances to back up my statement that the 2 best QBs of All Time in the History of the NFL are the Only Two to be 4-0 in the Super Bowl when it mattered the most.

When it mattered most, Warner threw the 99 yard TD interception, when it mattered most Warner sack fumble lost the game. When it mattered, Ben drove his team 80 yards in 2+ minutes to win the game with a Touchdown. When it mattered most Montana drove his team down the field with 3 minutes left to win the game. When it mattered the Most, Eli Manning drove his team down the field to win the game with 2+ minutes left in the game. Those performances are what we remember.

When it mattered most Neil threw an INT in the 4th after his team scored 10 unanswered points, and got the ball back with a defensive 3 and out.

When it mattered most Hasselbeck threw the INT To Taylor that lead to the reverse TD Touchdown pass. When it mattered most Favre couldn't convert on 4th down against the Broncos to keep his team in the game as time was running out. When it mattered most, Payton threw the 78 yard pick 6 for a TD.

Losers vs Winners.

Greatest of all Time vs the Greats of the Game.

Monatana and Bradshaw.

Everyone else wishes they could shine their shoes or carry their cups of coffee.

mikegrimey
02-11-2010, 01:53 PM
Oh, so now you basically argue is "team" and not QB, but here I am discussing the Best QB of all time, and using their SB records and performances to back up my statement that the 2 best QBs of All Time in the History of the NFL are the Only Two to be 4-0 in the Super Bowl when it mattered the most.

When it mattered most, Warner threw the 99 yard TD interception, when it mattered most Warner sack fumble lost the game. When it mattered, Ben drove his team 80 yards in 2+ minutes to win the game with a Touchdown. When it mattered most Montana drove his team down the field with 3 minutes left to win the game. When it mattered the Most, Eli Manning drove his team down the field to win the game with 2+ minutes left in the game. Those performances are what we remember.

When it mattered most Neil threw an INT in the 4th after his team scored 10 unanswered points, and got the ball back with a defensive 3 and out.

When it mattered most Hasselbeck threw the INT To Taylor that lead to the reverse TD Touchdown pass. When it mattered most Favre couldn't convert on 4th down against the Broncos to keep his team in the game as time was running out. When it mattered most, Payton threw the 78 yard pick 6 for a TD.

Losers vs Winners.

Greatest of all Time vs the Greats of the Game.

Monatana and Bradshaw.

Everyone else wishes they could shine their shoes or carry their cups of coffee.


Pay attention a little more closely please.

Football is a team sport and your method of designating the greatest at a particular position by cherry picking moments from big games isn't an effective way to determine that.

Case in point, you say "when it mattered most Warner threw a 99 yard INT".
That's nonsense and you know it. When it mattered most Warner hit Larry Fitzgerald in stride to put his team up. I've already mentioned the 34 some seconds he had to score another touchdown, not too many people are going to finish that drive.
Also, that INT Warner threw was more about Harrison making a phenomal play, not Warner making a throw or stupid play. He read the coverage correctly, and, as everyone knows now, Harrison was suppossed to blitz, which would have left Boldin wide open for the TD. It was a timing play---Harrison made a beautiful freelance play, Warner's throw was right on the money and if Harrison wouldn't have audibled himself out, you wouldn't be so smug right now eh?

Now, as for the rest of your "career defining" moments, most of them are just cherry picks, but memorable. Eli, as I discussed, repeatedly gave the Patriots chances on that game winning drive, they simply didn't convert---easy INT drops, failure to bring down a QB who is anything but elusive.

You're basically designating who's best based on rings. I've never seen Bradshaw play personally so I can't speak about him, but I have seen Montana play, and don't object to your ranking of him, but your assinine method and selective memory and surface level analysis.

Indo
02-11-2010, 02:38 PM
Pay attention a little more closely please.

Football is a team sport and your method of designating the greatest at a particular position by cherry picking moments from big games isn't an effective way to determine that.

Case in point, you say "when it mattered most Warner threw a 99 yard INT".
That's nonsense and you know it. When it mattered most Warner hit Larry Fitzgerald in stride to put his team up. I've already mentioned the 34 some seconds he had to score another touchdown, not too many people are going to finish that drive.
Also, that INT Warner threw was more about Harrison making a phenomal play, not Warner making a throw or stupid play. He read the coverage correctly, and, as everyone knows now, Harrison was suppossed to blitz, which would have left Boldin wide open for the TD. It was a timing play---Harrison made a beautiful freelance play, Warner's throw was right on the money and if Harrison wouldn't have audibled himself out, you wouldn't be so smug right now eh?

Now, as for the rest of your "career defining" moments, most of them are just cherry picks, but memorable. Eli, as I discussed, repeatedly gave the Patriots chances on that game winning drive, they simply didn't convert---easy INT drops, failure to bring down a QB who is anything but elusive.

You're basically designating who's best based on rings. I've never seen Bradshaw play personally so I can't speak about him, but I have seen Montana play, and don't object to your ranking of him, but your assinine method and selective memory and surface level analysis.



Soooo...
You're saying you would take Elway over Bradshaw if the Game was on the line? 2:00 minutes left, 85 yards to go to win or lose the SB?
Sorry, I would take Bradshaw ANY day. Nothing against Elway whatsoever. He is amongst the Greatest. But not THE greatest.


Using your above argument regarding Warner and Harrison, one may argue that a GREAT QB would have seen Harrison and not thrown the ball to begin with...

Of course football is a team sport. Bradshaw himself said (during his HOF Induction speech) that he would not be standing there if it weren't for a lot of other people (he specifically mentioned Swann and Stallworth), but it's difficult to say who was the GREATEST at any particular position without using Objective data----in this case stats and (IMO), more importantly, Championships won----> Rings

Bradshaw was the Best. Ever. He is the Only QB with 4 rings who called ALL of his own plays...QB, Offensive Coordinator, Champion....
There will NEVER be another like him

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BigBen'sSwagger
02-11-2010, 02:53 PM
Many of the greats have great recievers but how bout the ones who didn't but were still great QB's? Kenny Anderson didn't have a lot to work with.I would take him over Dilfer any day. Ben has had a rotation of em Plex and ARE gone in comes Santonio and Wallace and he has always had my man Hines. Kurt Warner has flashes of greatness but lost 2 of 3 Superbowls. Jim Kelley took his team to 4 straight and lost all 4 times to a team that got 13 draft picks for one Hershcel Walker??? That just aint fair and I still think there is something shady there. Troy Aikeman once lost to the Detroit Lions in the 1st round of the playoffs Major points should be taken away for that Mistake.

I am not sure how to judge a QB's greatness. I would guess some things to consider are wins and loses but also come from behind victories and what type of talent a QB has maybe even on both sides of the ball. I will say the media is the ones who decide these things and I am sure Peyton will have a place of honor in the greatest of all time and there aint much any of us can do about it.

mikegrimey
02-11-2010, 04:17 PM
Soooo...
You're saying you would take Elway over Bradshaw if the Game was on the line? 2:00 minutes left, 85 yards to go to win or lose the SB?
Sorry, I would take Bradshaw ANY day. Nothing against Elway whatsoever. He is amongst the Greatest. But not THE greatest.


Using your above argument regarding Warner and Harrison, one may argue that a GREAT QB would have seen Harrison and not thrown the ball to begin with...

Of course football is a team sport. Bradshaw himself said (during his HOF Induction speech) that he would not be standing there if it weren't for a lot of other people (he specifically mentioned Swann and Stallworth), but it's difficult to say who was the GREATEST at any particular position without using Objective data----in this case stats and (IMO), more importantly, Championships won----> Rings

Bradshaw was the Best. Ever. He is the Only QB with 4 rings who called ALL of his own plays...QB, Offensive Coordinator, Champion....
There will NEVER be another like him

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Are you being thick headed on purpose just to irritate me? Because that's what it seems like.

No, i'm not saying i'd take Elway over Bradshaw, how could you ask this after I just got done writing that I've never watched Bradshaw play and that i'm not comfortable comparing his talent to others that I have seen play?

Now pardon us all, but moving on from your digression about how much you love Terry Bradhsaw, the point I was making was that football is above all a team sport and that it takes a number of intangibles and even a little luck mixed with lots of hard work and talent from the coaches and players, just to win one SB. Automatically designating this QB or that QB better than another based on titles alone is a faulty system since the game is played in three phases and needs 11 guys to be on the same page every play.

Your criticism about Warner also missed my point. As for the play itself, we all know some plays are based on timing, Warner made the right read, but Harrison just improvised a once in a lifetime play. Would you also say Ben isn't a great qb because he didn't see Holmes running the wrong route in week 3 against the Bengals?
My point was that Warner did not fold at teh critical point in the game, like the poster I was responding to was so brashfully claiming. In fact he put his team on top when it counted, with just 2:37 left. It just so happened that Ben put together a miraculous drive of his own. You'd all criticize Warner for not scoring a TD when he got the ball back and had to go the distance with 30 seconds left? I imagine if the roles had been reversed you'd all be defending Ben to the death.
My point, again reiterated, was that both QBs played a great game and that it'd be nothing short of stupidity to claim that Ben is better than Warner JUST BECAUSE he came out on top in that game. Just like you shouldn't say Bradshaw is a better QB than whoever JUST BECAUSE he never lost a superbowl---titles are a part of what makes a great QB, but not the only thing.

steelax04
02-11-2010, 04:33 PM
Now pardon us all, but moving on from your digression about how much you love Terry Bradhsaw, the point I was making was that football is above all a team sport and that it takes a number of intangibles and even a little luck mixed with lots of hard work and talent from the coaches and players, just to win one SB. Automatically designating this QB or that QB better than another based on titles alone is a faulty system since the game is played in three phases and needs 11 guys to be on the same page every play.


I think you're going to have a hard time in this thread, which is discussing individuals, throwing around the argument that it's a team game. I don't think this is your target audience.

mikegrimey
02-11-2010, 08:27 PM
It's not the discussion of individuals that I object to, but the criteria being used to rate said individuals in here. Championships by themselves is not a proper way to rate a player at his respective position. Since winning the championship is a team effort other factors need to be heavily considered when determining who is the best. Factors like, individual effort and ability and leadership amongst other intangibles.

The problem with ranking just one guy on a football team is, like I said, every play requries the coordination of numerous players that one person can never, and should never, be credit with all the accolades.

I could listen to someone argue why they think Bradshaw is a better QB than Troy Aikman or Tom Brady (even though I find that comparing athletes of different periods to be difficult to do anyway) but I wouldn't accept the statment "he won more superbowls and never lost one" as a valid reason supporting that argument.
There are greats who rank among the best at every position that haven't won a championship, it's seems to me people that spout off stuff like "we won (x) superbowls" are just using it to disguise their lack of a real arguemnt or a real desire for one.

HughC
02-20-2010, 04:13 PM
If we're going to attempt to rank who the best NFL quarterback of all-time is and use their record in championship games, then you can't limit it to Super Bowls. Bart Starr may have been 2-0 in the Super Bowl, but overall he was 5-1 in title games and 9-1 in the playoffs. Johnny Unitas goes from 1-1 in the Super Bowl to 3-2 in championship games. Otto Graham threw three touchdowns in one championship win, and in another title win was in on six touchdowns, running for three and passing for three more. I can't imagine what the media would do if a QB did that now - or the fact he played in ten straight championship games, going 7-3.

In my opinion you can take championship games into consideration for these rankings, but I would make it a very minor point. NFL football is the ultimate team game, and as a result the QB tends to get way too much credit for a win and far too much blame for a loss. People don't hold it against Barry Sanders that he never made it to a Super Bowl, or against Thurman Thomas for going 0-4 in those games - but a quarterback's team loses once and in the eyes of some him legacy is forever tarnished. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me.

One last thing, I don't follow the logic some have that some have that losing in a championship game is a huge negative when critiquing a player and his career, but not making it that far means nothing. I just don't understand how knocking other teams off and winning the conference championship is worse than losing early in the playoffs (or not even making the playoffs at all) if you end up losing the Super Bowl. A team or player that is 1-2 in the Super Bowl is better than a team or player that is 1-0 in the Super Bowl because they both have the same number of Super Bowl wins, but the first one has three conference championships while the other has only one.

LambertIsGod58
02-21-2010, 08:39 AM
I didn't read all the posts, but Ben hasn't won a SB MVP either.

zulater
02-21-2010, 01:33 PM
I didn't read all the posts, but Ben hasn't won a SB MVP either.

I'm not a big fan of the premise of this thread. I don't knock qb's for losing in the SB because it's a great accomplishment just to get your team there.

But to address what you're saying here. While it's true Ben hasn't won a SB MVP, to date, imo he had a more MVP worthy performance in SB XL than Manning did against the Bears when he won it or Brady did against the Rams when he won it the first time. Let me put it this way, if you took last years SB and everything was the same except instead of the qb's last name being roethlisberger it was Manning or Brady... Well you can figure out the rest. Nothing against Santonio, but Ben should have been the MVP of that game.

ETL
02-22-2010, 09:33 PM
I'm not a big fan of the premise of this thread. I don't knock qb's for losing in the SB because it's a great accomplishment just to get your team there.

I agree that guys like Jim Kelly and Fran Tarkenton who have never won a SB were better QBs than Dilfer, Williams, Brad Johnson, etc...

But I do believe that there is something to a leader like a QB, who refuses to lose and can will a team to be the best that it can be to win.

i think Ben did that last year in the SB against the cardinals. And Manning clearly had a chance to do that and didn't. Brady basically had no chance to win after the Giants scored so late so I don't fault him as much.

i would submit that Peyton's failure in this super bowl is not unrelated to his pedestrian playoff win percentage in his career (being around .500). He may be great in the regular season, have great stats, read defenses and do a bunch of smart things at the line but when it comes to crunch time - he is average.