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mesaSteeler
02-09-2010, 09:03 PM
Harris: When it counts, Manning bows to Ben
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_666248.html
By John Harris, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW

John Harris is a Pittsburgh Tribune-Review sports columnist and can be reached at

All things being equal, give me No. 7.

In the NFL's biggest game, on its grandest stage, I'll take Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger over Indianapolis Colts' wunderkind Peyton Manning to win a Super Bowl.

The Colts' 31-17 loss to New Orleans in Super Bowl XLIV, in which Manning was statistically brilliant but flawed in the clutch, highlighted critical differences between two iconic players who are successful despite wildly contrasting styles.

Manning has few peers in regards to family pedigree and gaudy statistics. His father, Archie, was a star quarterback with the Saints before the team's current quarterback, Drew Brees, was born. Younger brother Eli was the MVP of Super Bowl XLII with the New York Giants.

Peyton is the only player in league history to win four MVPs. He has passed for 4,000 yards in a season a record 10 times.

Roethlisberger's next league MVP will be his first. He topped the 4,000-yard milestone for the first time this season

Roethlisberger didn't grow up with a silver spoon in his mouth. In fact, he didn't play quarterback until his senior year in high school. He attended Miami Miami University, not the "U" in South Florida, which is famous for churning out NFL stars.

Here's the catch. Manning, the so-called greatest quarterback in league history as he was portrayed by fawning members of the national media leading up to Super Bowl XLIV isn't even the best quarterback in Super Bowl history.

Manning is 1-1 in Super Bowls. He was named MVP in the Colts' win over Chicago in Super Bowl XLI. He is among a large number of quarterbacks with one Super Bowl victory Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler included. Winning one Super Bowl is big, but many quarterbacks far less accomplished than Manning have done that.

Roethlisberger is 2-0 in Super Bowls. He's on a much shorter list of quarterbacks with at least two Super Bowl victories without a loss, a list that includes Terry Bradshaw (4-0), Joe Montana (4-0), Troy Aikman (3-0), Bart Starr (2-0) and Jim Plunkett (2-0) and he's the only active quarterback to do so.

Roethlisberger is also 0-2 in winning Super Bowl MVPs but that's a credit to teammate Santonio Holmes, who was brilliant with nine receptions for 131 yards and the game-winning touchdown catch against Arizona in Super Bowl XLIII.

Roethlisberger did as much to help the Steelers win Super Bowl XLIII as Manning did to help the Colts win Super Bowl XLI, but only Manning was named MVP.

Manning, known for his pinpoint accuracy, never threw a better pass under pressure than the one Roethlisberger completed to Holmes in the closing minute of Super Bowl XLIII. Roethlisberger's innate ability to execute comfortably under duress is what makes him special in big games.

To Roethlisberger, playing football is all in the backyard. It's a game he plays exceedingly well sometimes, by his own rules.

Roethlisberger throws on the run, throws off his back foot, throws across his body and throws into coverage. At times, he's a bulked-up version of Fran Tarkenton, scrambling to elude potential tacklers while buying time for his receivers to get open.

Unlike Manning, Roethlisberger rarely gives up on a play.

Manning, on the other hand, plays quarterback by the book, sometimes to his detriment.

New Orleans cornerback Tracy Porter said knowing Manning's tendencies helped him on a 74-yard interception return for a touchdown in the fourth quarter.

One of Roethlisberger's best qualities is his ability to shake off a mistake and focus on the next play. A bad throw in a big game doesn't diminish his aggressiveness.

Roethlisberger, who's 8-2 in the postseason, saved his best for the last drive against Arizona in the Super Bowl. Before that drive, his performance had been average.

Manning, whose career playoff record is only 9-9, failed once again to shake his nagging reputation for being a sensational regular-season quarterback who's mediocre at best in the postseason.

If, on the other hand, you prefer a quarterback who excels during crunch time and wins big games, Roethlisberger's track record gives him the edge over Manning, who's been touted by some as the greatest passer ever

markymarc
02-09-2010, 09:59 PM
I'll take Big Ben over Peyton Manning each and every time!

steelerdude15
02-09-2010, 10:10 PM
As I've always said, Big Ben is the best 4 QT 2 minute QB in the league. No one can lead a team down on the field like he can.

GutterflowerSteel
02-09-2010, 10:38 PM
I wouldn't trade Ben for any other qb in the league - and I don't care if that makes me a homer :tt02: There's no other qb quite like him :helmet:

mesaSteeler
02-09-2010, 10:49 PM
Big Ben towers over Manning in playoffs
Jason Cole
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=jc-directsnap020910&prov=yhoo&type=lgns
By Jason Cole, Yahoo! Sports 6 hours, 25 minutes ago

At the risk of being a heretic (or worse, completely agreeing with good friend Dutch Wydo), there is a case to be made that Ben Roethlisberger(notes) is a better quarterback than Peyton Manning(notes).

Certainly in the playoffs.

Before you send that email calling me crazy or mocking me only days after I wrote that Manning is the fourth-best quarterback of all time, let’s put this in perspective. It is impossible to truly measure Roethlisberger against Manning or Tom Brady(notes) just yet.

Roethlisberger has played six years. His regular-season stats (only two seasons with more than 18 touchdown passes) pale in comparison to those of Manning, Brady and many other quarterbacks. In short, so much of his career is yet to be played that it’s silly to rank him even among the top 25 quarterbacks of all time.

Bottom line, it would take serious guts to draft Roethlisberger ahead of Manning at this point of their respective careers.

Furthermore, there isn’t a defensive coordinator in the league who won’t tell you that the challenge of facing Manning is much tougher from a game-plan aspect than facing Roethlisberger.

“There’s nothing you can do against Peyton that he hasn’t seen,” said Detroit defensive coordinator Gunther Cunningham, who has spent the past 15 years in the NFL in that role with four teams and is one of the most respected defensive minds in the league. “He can figure out anything you’re trying to do and find the perfect play to get you. You constantly have to change what you do and hope that he just makes some mistake along the way.

“With Roethlisberger, he’s a completely different kind of player. He’s unique because he’s so big and so tough that you hit him and he just shakes it off and keeps looking downfield. He’s great, but figuring out how to defend isn’t the hard part. The hard part is executing the plan.”

Roethlisberger has also been backed by one of the great defenses of this decade. But mentioning the Steelers’ defense means that you must also credit the Colts for surrounding Manning with great offensive weapons and amazing consistency on the coaching staff.

The bottom line is this: Roethlisberger is currently 8-2 in the playoffs, has two Super Bowl rings – including his great final drive against Arizona – and a quarterback rating of 87.2 in the playoffs. That includes his bad performance in the Super Bowl win against Seattle, a bad first half in a playoff loss to Jacksonville and a typically bad playoff game against New England in the 2004 playoffs when he was a rookie.

For Manning, he is now 9-9 in the playoffs over his 12-year career, has one Super Bowl win, is coming off a bad finish against New Orleans and has a quarterback rating of 95.5 in the playoffs. If you break down the stats further, you’ll note that the Colts have asked Manning to do a lot more (38.4 attempts per game) than the Steelers have of Roethlisberger (28.8 attempts).

But the bottom line is that Roethlisberger has succeeded (he was great in the 2008 playoffs and also in the 2005 playoffs before the Super Bowl against Seattle) and Manning has struggled.

SAINTS VS. THE MEDIA
Drew Brees answers questions during Super Bowl media day.
(AP Photo)

Here’s one wish for the coming offseason: That the Super Bowl Champion New Orleans Saints make peace with NewOrleans.com and reporter Brian Allee-Walsh.

One of the stories that got little play going into Super Bowl week was the decision by the Saints to ban NewOrleans.com and Allee-Walsh from covering the team. For background’s sake, NewOrleans.com is a relatively new site that has hired many experienced reporters to cover news, sports and entertainment around the city, taking on the New Orleans Times-Picayune. Allee-Walsh is one of those experienced reporters, having covered the Saints and the NFL for 23 years for the Times-Picayune before taking a buyout from the newspaper and joining New Orleans.com earlier this season.

On two occasions this season, the Saints banned the website and Allee-Walsh from covering the team. That included a few days during the week between when the NFC Championship Game and when the Saints left for the Super Bowl. Once at the Super Bowl, Allee-Walsh was approved by the NFL to cover the team and the event.

“You have to understand that as the season went on and we got to 8-0 and 9-0, every website out there was trying to get credentialed to cover us,” said Saints spokesman Greg Bensel, who said he planned to re-examine the team’s coverage policy and sit down with the owner of NewOrleans.com this offseason. “It’s our decision to credential who we want and I talked it over with a lot of other media relations people from other teams to see how they were handling it.

“We feel our decision is in line with what other teams have done.”

Well, some yes, some no. The Dallas Cowboys, for instance, credential just about any news organization that applies, including a one-man operation that sends out a newsletter and isn’t even online. Other teams, like the Saints, have wrestled with trying to differentiate between legitimate news-gathering operations (Profootballtalk.com is a prime example of a non-traditional site that has grown over the years) and websites that are little more than somebody sitting in front of a computer spouting off whatever he thinks without bothering to check.

The bottom line is this: NewOrleans.com hired an established reporter to cover the Saints on a full-time basis, both at home and on the road. This is as obvious an attempt to establish a legitimate news operation as any organization could possibly make. This was not hiring a reporter straight out of college saying, “Go get’em, ace.”

Even that circumstance, in this age of media upheaval, is hard to criticize without running into pratfalls. In other words, if someone is willing to spend time covering a team on a full-time basis and dedicate resources to giving it legitimate coverage, it’s hard to say that organization should be banned. Fact is, websites have potentially far greater reach than even local TV or radio shows.

The Saints should back off this policy as soon as possible.

HALL OF FAME THOUGHTS
Jerry Rice, right, is congratulated by Steve Young after Rice was announced as a 2010 enshrinee into the Hall of Fame
(Chris Graythen/Getty Images)

My favorite story from this year’s Hall of Fame election coverage was about how newly-elected wide receiver Jerry Rice(notes) for years refused to sign memorabilia for the Hall. While Rice, arguably the greatest player in league history, was a no-brainer for Hall consideration, he explained that he never wanted to take it for granted that he’d make it.

The lesson in that is that too many of us, particularly in the media, throw around the expression “future Hall of Famer.” It’s so presumptuous as to be insulting. The process for making the Hall is brutally difficult. The 44 selectors – all members of the media – spent seven hours last Saturday discussing the candidates in a closed meeting. That came after months of being politicked and approached by the candidates themselves and people representing the candidates.

In the past, the process was usually completed after three or four hours. While there is a fair point to be made that the process could be changed to be more like the voting for the Baseball Hall of Fame (there are more than 500 voters, thus diminishing the power of any single person, and it’s done by a mail-in ballot, thus limiting the politicking), the fact is that the 44 selectors do a fine job of sorting through the candidates.

It’s just that the rest of the media does a terrible job of putting those people on the spot. On Saturday, for instance, NFL Network analysts Michael Irvin, Steve Young and Rod Woodson second-guessed the fact that Charles Haley didn’t make it this year. Fact is, Haley, who will be deserving if he makes it, was a long-time teammate of Irvin and Young, making them somewhat biased.

Further, there are plenty of people who will tell you that Richard Dent was as good or better than Haley or that Cortez Kennedy was a better all-around defensive lineman. Bottom line, Haley has a ways to travel before he gets to Canton, Ohio, the home of the Hall.

Moreover, the process is only going to get more difficult. Next year, for instance, Deion Sanders, Marshall Faulk(notes), Curtis Martin(notes) and Jerome Bettis are among players eligible for consideration. Good luck sorting through a list that could include those four and the 10 guys from this year’s final 15 who didn’t make it (Haley, Dent, Kennedy, Cris Carter, Tim Brown(notes), Andre Reed, Dermontti Dawson, Roger Craig, Don Coryell and Shannon Sharpe).

At best, five will make it. Good luck to the 44 selectors figuring out precisely who really is a future Hall of Famer.

THIS AND THAT

• Before completely leaving the Hall of Fame discussion, there’s a popular argument that goes something like this: If you can’t write the history of pro football without mentioning such-and-such’s name, they should be in the Hall of Fame. It’s an intriguing point, but flawed. For instance, it would be hard to write the history of the league without mentioning Rae Carruth, Pacman Jones and Michael Vick(notes) and how they embarrassed the game and pushed the groundswell for the personal conduct policy. Carruth is never going in the Hall. The idea of Jones and/or Vick making it seems too absurd to comprehend, although theoretically not impossible. Further, if you take the point to an extreme, it would be impossible to write any book on world history without spending time on Adolf Hitler, but he’s not making any Hall of Fame.
Joey Porter readies a hit on Drew Brees on Oct. 25, 2009.
(Doug Benc/Getty Images)

• Hey, Joey Porter(notes), while I admire your honesty regarding the Dolphins, I have to say that you’re not exactly ingratiating yourself to your next employer by ripping a team that never said anything publicly about your selfish play last season. Don’t think word hasn’t gotten around the league about your refusal to come out of games so you could build stats at the expense of team play. Oh yeah, and you turn 33 in March. You’ll be lucky to make $3 million next year and maybe some incentives to go with that. Thus, talking your way out of the $5 million the Dolphins are supposed to pay you isn’t exactly bright.

• Plenty of readers had opinions about my top 10 lists at running back and quarterback from last week. Typically, a lot of the thoughts were negative (welcome to the internet). But one of the most consistent points was about the omission of Gale Sayers from the running backs list. While Sayers was great, the problem for me is that his career basically lasted five years. He had only two 1,000-yard season, topping out with 1,231 yards in 1966. He only had 56 total touchdowns in his career and eight came on kickoff or punt returns. In other words, Sayers was a great all-around player, a hybrid of Marshall Faulk and Devin Hester(notes). But his career as a running back was too abbreviated to define him as one of the top 10 at that spot. Same goes for Bo Jackson, who may be the greatest athlete in our country’s history. Jackson was the modern incarnation of Jim Brown and he was an all-star in baseball. But when you only play four years, it’s hard to measure that against people who play the position for eight years or more.

• Oh, and to the reader who compared John Elway to Bubby Brister, all I have to say is that you’re an idiot.

• The decision by New England to not name a defensive or offensive coordinator is interesting, but speaks to a significant political issue within the coaching staff, particularly on the defensive side. Coach Bill Belichick has been grooming Matt Patricia for the defensive coordinator job. However, naming Patricia would lead to problems for Belichick with defensive line coach Pepper Johnson, who is an important member of the staff because of his credibility as a former player. Belichick would be wise to make Johnson an assistant head coach at some point if he really wants to keep him.

Chidi29
02-09-2010, 11:07 PM
It's funny that even though Ben is better in the clutch than Manning in the playoffs, he doesn't come anywhere close to comparing to him as a QB overall.

GBMelBlount
02-09-2010, 11:16 PM
It's funny that even though Ben is better in the clutch than Manning in the playoffs, he doesn't come anywhere close to comparing to him as a QB overall.

I'll take the clutch QB...that is what separates the best from the rest. Pressure.

madtowndrunkard
02-09-2010, 11:27 PM
IMO it's just further proof that you cannot rely too much on any one player. You have to be some what balanced.

Ben was awful in his first SB appearance but we still won. He was much better in his 2nd SB appearance but it was our defense that got us there.


If we want to win next year we have to find our running game. Ben is not Peyton Manning. He's a great QB but he cannot carry our team like Manning has done all these years. We need a running game and we need our defense to bounce back. If that happens we will be competing for a SB once again.

mikegrimey
02-09-2010, 11:45 PM
I disagree that Ben isn't a great QB.

He's definitely one of the elite preformers in the league. Definitely not Peyton Manning, but a different breed.
I'd rank him in the top 5 without hesitation.

Sadly, one of his greatest strengths is his greatest foils. I just don't see him lasting as long with us if he doesn't calm down and take less sacks/hits. He already has a lot of concussions, too many more and he'll be forced into an early retirement.

I noticed after the Chiefs game last year he actually started throwing the ball away sometimes, which i've never noticed before. He can still be great without sacrificing his body, like in the Packers game, which was a fabulous preformance. I agree about our running game, we dont' need to run more, but just run more effectively---especially in short yardage situations and in the red zone or goal line, where we were particularly sad last year. Our passing game will be fine. Ben, Ward, and Holmes are all constants now and Wallace will hopefully get more opportunities after proving himself in the few he got last year. We just need some consistency or semblance of a threat in the rushing attack and we'll be great on O.

Steeldude
02-10-2010, 01:20 AM
All things being equal, give me No. 7

all things being equal? if manning was still young i would easily take him over BR.

and with all things being equal i would take marino over both of them.

Cinnjerm
02-10-2010, 02:07 AM
It's funny that even though Ben is better in the clutch than Manning in the playoffs, he doesn't come anywhere close to comparing to him as a QB overall.

Truthfully though, who cares about who's the best during the regular season if ultimately success is measured by championships (and to be sure, it is). The only people who dismiss championships are the ones who aren't winning them. I mean, think about it. If Manning is such a great QB, why can't he be a great QB under pressure. I liken it to the singer prodigy that swears they're the best singer alive...as long as no one is there to watch. Put another way, can Manning really be the best ever ("ever") if he isn't the best when it matters. Besides, as it's been said many times, Manning could not produce anywhere near the level Ben does behind our O-line (Diesel D or no Diesel D). Whereas conversely, Ben would most likely put up similar if not better numbers then Manning behind the Colt's o-line. Think back to the last game you remember where Ben wasn't touched, I bet he destroyed whoever it was he was playing.

kirklandrules
02-10-2010, 08:05 AM
Thanks Harris for saying what I said the other day and got called a "homer". I was also told that I just bash great players that happen to play for other teams. Manning and Brady have an excellent touch on the football, but are only good when there's no pressure. I want the guy that can take a hit and still make the big throws, as Ben did several times in last year's SB. And to show I'm not a homer, I think Warner, Favre and others have the ability to make the big throws after getting repeatedly pounded. But not Manning and Brady. Manning is an awesome QB, but is the greatest choker in today's game. Brady played under a cheating system and is 0-1 in the big game when not allowed to cheat. So of the "elite" QBs playing today, Ben is the best.

wootawnee
02-10-2010, 08:43 AM
Ego.boast.for.the.homers..........

Prok
02-10-2010, 12:07 PM
It's funny that even though Ben is better in the clutch than Manning in the playoffs, he doesn't come anywhere close to comparing to him as a QB overall.

While that is a valid point I think far too many ppl get caught up in stats for QB's. And rightfully so, i suppose.

But take a real close look at how these guys perform under heavy passrush and adversity. Matter of fact, you can throw Brady in there as well.

While Ben still has a long way to go, career-wise. The way he handles the most pressure packed situations gives him the advantage IMO.

Now that may also be his eventual downfall. It remains to be seen whether his body can hold up to the beatings due to him holding the ball too long.

Peyton and Brady KNOW when to give up on a play and live to fight another down. Ben believes he can make the big play EVERY time a play breaks down. And let's face it, he DOES make a ton of great plays that way.

But yeah, give me Ben any day of the week. I'm just hoping he matures and learns to protect his body more. And in turn he'll protect our future SB chances more imo.

St33lersguy
02-10-2010, 12:11 PM
Yep, Big Ben is better, particularly in the clutch. He is also harder to bring down and more exciting to watch

Dino 6 Rings
02-10-2010, 12:49 PM
Since the QBs are considered the Leaders of the team, the most important part of the team, especially in a big game, its clear that you want the guy you trust to win every time, make the plays when they have to be made, be able to improvise when the crap hits the fan and be strong enough to make a mistake and rebound from it within the same game.

Ben fits that mold. He can make most of the throws (I question his deep ball especially now that we have Wallace 5 yards behind every safety in the league having to wait on the ball) He can read a defense (Rodney Harrison baiting him as a Rookie in the AFC Title game taught him a ton) He can shake off a sack, use his legs and make a big play, at a big moment, in a big game. (Pass to Ward against the Seahawks, the Drive against the Cardinals)

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 05:28 PM
I'll take the clutch QB...that is what separates the best from the rest. Pressure.

So you think Ben is the better QB than Peyton?

Could you give me ballpark figures on where you rank both of them on an all-time list?

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 05:29 PM
While that is a valid point I think far too many ppl get caught up in stats for QB's. And rightfully so, i suppose.

But take a real close look at how these guys perform under heavy passrush and adversity. Matter of fact, you can throw Brady in there as well.

While Ben still has a long way to go, career-wise. The way he handles the most pressure packed situations gives him the advantage IMO.

Now that may also be his eventual downfall. It remains to be seen whether his body can hold up to the beatings due to him holding the ball too long.

Peyton and Brady KNOW when to give up on a play and live to fight another down. Ben believes he can make the big play EVERY time a play breaks down. And let's face it, he DOES make a ton of great plays that way.

But yeah, give me Ben any day of the week. I'm just hoping he matures and learns to protect his body more. And in turn he'll protect our future SB chances more imo.

Same question to you. So you'd take Ben over Manning? Where do you rank both of them on an all-time list?

Prok
02-10-2010, 05:50 PM
Same question to you. So you'd take Ben over Manning? Where do you rank both of them on an all-time list?


Hell yeah I'd take Ben over Peyton. Peyton would get killed in our scheme. And tell me Steelers fans, of all fans, would accept the playoff record Peyton's first few years??

Sure we have a better D but 4 INT's damn sure won't help matters. Ya can only blame Indy's D so much. People forget it took Peyton YEARS to get to where he could carry that team offensively.

At this point in Ben's career he's pretty damned good for us. And he is one of the BEST 4th quarter QB's I have ever seen. Look at the staggering number of late game heroics Ben has accumulated so far.

As far as all time goes ?? I'll just state what I have already stated here. John freakin' Elway is the greatest QB I have ever seen play. I don't much really care about the list because it's all subjective. For argument's sake i'll put Joe Montana at #2. Not far behind Elway.

Peyton? I'll put him top 10-15 but that crucial INT the other day did not help his case imo.

Ben? Has alot of Elway's characteristics imo. He scrambles well, has great pocket awareness, great poise, great at buying time and finding the big play down field when things do break down.

But realistically, Ben doesn't belong in the convo until he has played AT LEAST a couple more seasons. These next few years will determine where alot of ppl place him amongst the greats IMO.

But yes, I'll take Ben over Manning and be happy with the decision.

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 06:26 PM
Hell yeah I'd take Ben over Peyton. Peyton would get killed in our scheme. And tell me Steelers fans, of all fans, would accept the playoff record Peyton's first few years??

Sure we have a better D but 4 INT's damn sure won't help matters. Ya can only blame Indy's D so much. People forget it took Peyton YEARS to get to where he could carry that team offensively.

At this point in Ben's career he's pretty damned good for us. And he is one of the BEST 4th quarter QB's I have ever seen. Look at the staggering number of late game heroics Ben has accumulated so far.

As far as all time goes ?? I'll just state what I have already stated here. John freakin' Elway is the greatest QB I have ever seen play. I don't much really care about the list because it's all subjective. For argument's sake i'll put Joe Montana at #2. Not far behind Elway.

Peyton? I'll put him top 10-15 but that crucial INT the other day did not help his case imo.

Ben? Has alot of Elway's characteristics imo. He scrambles well, has great pocket awareness, great poise, great at buying time and finding the big play down field when things do break down.

But realistically, Ben doesn't belong in the convo until he has played AT LEAST a couple more seasons. These next few years will determine where alot of ppl place him amongst the greats IMO.

But yes, I'll take Ben over Manning and be happy with the decision.

How would Peyton get killed in our scheme? Our scheme isn't just to sit back all day and wait for the big play. That's Ben's personality. Has nothing to do with scheme. Some will say it's because Peyton doesn't get hit, but don't you think there's a reason for that?

It's because he's the smartest QB to ever play the game. He knows where the defense is going to be blitzing from nearly all the time. He spends probably more time than anyone else learning other defenses and studing their tendencies. He gets the ball out of his hand quicker. He knows to give up on the play when that clock inside his head expires. He checks it down more often than Ben. He does all of those things so much better than Ben ever will.

I don't see how Peyton would do bad in our scheme. I don't see how he would do bad in any scheme.

I'm not asking for your entire rankings, just Peyton and Ben. If you really would take Ben over Peyton, you should have Ben ahead of Peyton on your all-time lists. It's not a situation where Manning is fading and over the hill as it would be the case where I'd take Mike Wallace over Terrell Owens right now, even though Owens was clearly the better WR in his prime.

Don't dance around the question. Just answer it.

Prok
02-10-2010, 06:36 PM
How would Peyton get killed in our scheme? Our scheme isn't just to sit back all day and wait for the big play. That's Ben's personality. Has nothing to do with scheme. Some will say it's because Peyton doesn't get hit, but don't you think there's a reason for that?

It's because he's the smartest QB to ever play the game. He knows where the defense is going to be blitzing from nearly all the time. He spends probably more time than anyone else learning other defenses and studing their tendencies. He gets the ball out of his hand quicker. He knows to give up on the play when that clock inside his head expires. He checks it down more often than Ben. He does all of those things so much better than Ben ever will.

I don't see how Peyton would do bad in our scheme. I don't see how he would do bad in any scheme.

I'm not asking for your entire rankings, just Peyton and Ben. If you really would take Ben over Peyton, you should have Ben ahead of Peyton on your all-time lists. It's not a situation where Manning is fading and over the hill as it would be the case where I'd take Mike Wallace over Terrell Owens right now, even though Owens was clearly the better WR in his prime.

Don't dance around the question. Just answer it.

I'm not dancing. i answered as honestly as I could. You're the one comparing a ten plus year vet to a 6 year vet. And yes i'll take Ben over Peyton. How many more ways would you like me to state it ??

And since Peyton is the smartest QB to ever play the game....... That INT for a TD the other day must not have happened huh ???

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, I got it, let's blame Reggie Wayne. Surely he forced Peyton into throwing it there....

You asked me a question and I answered it to the best of my abilities. Sorry if you don't like it or agree with it. But i'm damn glad we got Ben instead of Peyton. Just imagine when Ben gets more time under his belt. The potential for MORE Super Bowl's than Peyton will play in definately is greater for Ben.

:tt:

Prok
02-10-2010, 06:40 PM
Oh and the reason Peyton would get killed in OUR scheme, in case you haven't noticed, is that we do NOT call a bunch of stat compiling dump-off passes.....

supa_fly_steeler
02-10-2010, 06:41 PM
I would take Ben over Peyton for clutchness

and mike over owens because 1. hes cooler and 2 he reminded me of a cool guy but unlike terrell he isn't so much of a twat.

mikes a team player, he made snead alot better than he actually is and i bet his first season starting he will post 1000 yard recieving, hell he may get more yards next year than even hines or santonio.

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 06:50 PM
I'm not dancing. i answered as honestly as I could. You're the one comparing a ten plus year vet to a 6 year vet. And yes i'll take Ben over Peyton. How many more ways would you like me to state it ??

And since Peyton is the smartest QB to ever play the game....... That INT for a TD the other day must not have happened huh ???

Ohhhhhhhhhhh, I got it, let's blame Reggie Wayne. Surely he forced Peyton into throwing it there....

You asked me a question and I answered it to the best of my abilities. Sorry if you don't like it or agree with it. But i'm damn glad we got Ben instead of Peyton. Just imagine when Ben gets more time under his belt. The potential for MORE Super Bowl's than Peyton will play in definately is greater for Ben.

:tt:

Yes, you are dancing. Where would you put Ben on an all-time list if you had to right now. It apparently has to be above Manning since you'd take Ben over Manning ergo you're putting Ben in the top ten of ALL TIME (Since you had Manning in the 10-15 range).

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Think Ben is the better player than Manning but not have the...ehem...jewels to actually go as far as to say he's a top ten QB of all time. Doesn't work that way.

LOL at you thinking that me calling Peyton the smartest QB ever makes him immune to making mistakes. You know you're reaching and you know Peyton is smarter than Ben will EVER be.

My intentions certainly aren't to bash Ben, I'm as grateful as anyone that we have him, but to me, once again, Steelers fans are having knee-jerk reactions that form their opinions.

Peyton > Ben

Any day.

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 07:03 PM
Oh and the reason Peyton would get killed in OUR scheme, in case you haven't noticed, is that we do NOT call a bunch of stat compiling dump-off passes.....

Go ahead and back that up. Enligten me.

I bet you can't.

I bet I can show you you're wrong.

Prok
02-10-2010, 07:15 PM
Yes, you are dancing. Where would you put Ben on an all-time list if you had to right now. It apparently has to be above Manning since you'd take Ben over Manning ergo you're putting Ben in the top ten of ALL TIME (Since you had Manning in the 10-15 range).

You want to have your cake and eat it too. Think Ben is the better player than Manning but not have the...ehem...jewels to actually go as far as to say he's a top ten QB of all time. Doesn't work that way.

LOL at you thinking that me calling Peyton the smartest QB ever makes him immune to making mistakes. You know you're reaching and you know Peyton is smarter than Ben will EVER be.

My intentions certainly aren't to bash Ben, I'm as grateful as anyone that we have him, but to me, once again, Steelers fans are having knee-jerk reactions that form their opinions.

Peyton > Ben

Any day.

How many years has Peyton been in the game than Ben ??

How many HOME games in a dome does Peyton get while Ben is out in the elements ??

How many more short dumpoffs a year does Peyton get than Ben ??

How many SB's has Peyton played in compared to Ben ??

What's the playoff record for both TEAMS with both players at QB position ??

Which player has the potential to play in more SB's ?? Which player has played YEARS longer ??

Listen, I give Peyton his due. He's a great QB. But i'm sorry i would choose Ben over Peyton EVERY day of the week.

You're simply trolling for an argument that isn't there. And then you seem to be whining that I don't agree with you. Sorry about your luck man. It happens.

I choose Ben. I gave sound reasoning. Get over it.

Oh and as to this "subjective" all time list: Ok I'll bite. Let me place Ben #14 and Peyton # 16. Because Ben is BETTER in the clutch and will retire with more of the all important SB WINS. (like a message board OPINION will alter the NFL)

Prok
02-10-2010, 07:21 PM
Go ahead and back that up. Enligten me.

I bet you can't.

I bet I can show you you're wrong.

Show me anyone that runs more shorter routes than Arians scheme and i'd be happy !! lol

AllD
02-10-2010, 07:45 PM
Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana are two of the greatest, if not the top two QBs of all time. Four Super Bowl rings each with no losses defines their careers.

It is all aboout the championship, not statistics. Statistics are for those who do not win the championship.

VTsteel
02-10-2010, 08:07 PM
all things being equal? if manning was still young i would easily take him over BR.

and with all things being equal i would take marino over both of them.


Sorry my big green friend (and I mean no offense) - All things being equal . . . you'd have zero SB wins. I'll take the guy with two SB wins.

:steelersflag:

SteelersMongol
02-10-2010, 08:25 PM
Hmm. The title is kinda misleading. I thought I'd read some actual words by Manning which says Ben is better.

Prok
02-10-2010, 08:37 PM
Hmm. The title is kinda misleading. I thought I'd read some actual words by Manning which says Ben is better.

I heard a rumor that during Peyton's retirement speech he will announce that Big Ben is the heir apparent to his throne. :chuckle:

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 08:50 PM
How many years has Peyton been in the game than Ben ??

How many HOME games in a dome does Peyton get while Ben is out in the elements ??

How many more short dumpoffs a year does Peyton get than Ben ??

How many SB's has Peyton played in compared to Ben ??

What's the playoff record for both TEAMS with both players at QB position ??

Which player has the potential to play in more SB's ?? Which player has played YEARS longer ??

Listen, I give Peyton his due. He's a great QB. But i'm sorry i would choose Ben over Peyton EVERY day of the week.

You're simply trolling for an argument that isn't there. And then you seem to be whining that I don't agree with you. Sorry about your luck man. It happens.

I choose Ben. I gave sound reasoning. Get over it.

Oh and as to this "subjective" all time list: Ok I'll bite. Let me place Ben #14 and Peyton # 16. Because Ben is BETTER in the clutch and will retire with more of the all important SB WINS. (like a message board OPINION will alter the NFL)

All I was asking for you was to give me where you would rank Ben and Manning. You ranked Peyton, but wouldn't give me a defintive answer on Ben. That's all I was looking for, and frankly, I didn't think you'd ever give me a straight answer.

So you rank Ben as the 14th best QB of all time? Fair enough, I can respect the fact that you finally put a number on him. All I know is that a lot of people will disagree with you on that, including myself.

mikegrimey
02-10-2010, 08:55 PM
Sorry my big green friend (and I mean no offense) - All things being equal . . . you'd have zero SB wins. I'll take the guy with two SB wins.

:steelersflag:

:doh:

Come now, if you're gonna say Ben is better than Marino provide a better reason than the ring pointing

It takes a number of elements and stars to be aligned for any team to win a SB, notice I said team, not just QB.

mikegrimey
02-10-2010, 08:57 PM
Oh and the reason Peyton would get killed in OUR scheme, in case you haven't noticed, is that we do NOT call a bunch of stat compiling dump-off passes.....


I don't think Peyton would get killed playing in any scheme, simply because he intentionally avoids getting hit. It's part of his approach to playing the game and staying healthy. It's obvious he approaches the game that way.

If he was on our team, in our scheme, with our oline and receivers, he would probably just throw the ball away more and have a lower completion percentage, and he'd get sacked probably 40 less times a year than Ben, just like he does now.

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 09:00 PM
Show me anyone that runs more shorter routes than Arians scheme and i'd be happy !! lol


Translation: I can't back up what I said.

I'll respect you more if you man up and say you were making a baseless claim.

Prok
02-10-2010, 09:15 PM
All I was asking for you was to give me where you would rank Ben and Manning. You ranked Peyton, but wouldn't give me a defintive answer on Ben. That's all I was looking for, and frankly, I didn't think you'd ever give me a straight answer.

So you rank Ben as the 14th best QB of all time? Fair enough, I can respect the fact that you finally put a number on him. All I know is that a lot of people will disagree with you on that, including myself.

As I stated in another thread, in my view compiling a list of greatest QB's is pretty much all subjective. I don't think any 2 of us here would have the same list.

In reguards to Ben. He's hopefully still got 8-10 years left of playing in him so it is harder for me (and unfair to him) to place him on any all-time list.

Like my number 1 all time QB is John Elway. Who is yours?

I had thought i had a well thought out post about the reasoning for me choosing Ben over Peyton.

It's all good by me though. I just don't have Peyton ranking as highly as you do.

I'd like to think i'm not such a homer to be blinded into choosing Ben. I choose Ben because he's a hell of a QB and winner.

Prok
02-10-2010, 09:19 PM
Translation: I can't back up what I said.

I'll respect you more if you man up and say you were making a baseless claim.

Plenty of games like the 2nd Cinci game this year where it SEEMED as though we were deep ball or nothing much of the time has swayed my opinion of our passing game vs a Colts scheme.

And i'm not losing any sleep over lost respect on an opinion based message board. lol

No need to take a message board so seriously imo.

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 09:49 PM
As I stated in another thread, in my view compiling a list of greatest QB's is pretty much all subjective. I don't think any 2 of us here would have the same list.

In reguards to Ben. He's hopefully still got 8-10 years left of playing in him so it is harder for me (and unfair to him) to place him on any all-time list.

Like my number 1 all time QB is John Elway. Who is yours?

I had thought i had a well thought out post about the reasoning for me choosing Ben over Peyton.

It's all good by me though. I just don't have Peyton ranking as highly as you do.

I'd like to think i'm not such a homer to be blinded into choosing Ben. I choose Ben because he's a hell of a QB and winner.

I never asked for concrete, exact lists. From the get go, I asked for a ballpark figure of both Ben and Peyton. Heck, I don't even have a concrete list and couldn't give you my #1 QB of all-time because I haven't made such a list. I intend to do so this summer. But I can tell you this much. Peyton will be far ahead of Ben.

Chidi29
02-10-2010, 09:50 PM
Plenty of games like the 2nd Cinci game this year where it SEEMED as though we were deep ball or nothing much of the time has swayed my opinion of our passing game vs a Colts scheme.

And i'm not losing any sleep over lost respect on an opinion based message board. lol

No need to take a message board so seriously imo.

To make it out to be that Manning relies heavily on YAC and Ben does it is quite a claim, don't you think? Especially if you can't back it up.

All I'm asking for is that if you're going to make such a claim, be prepared to back it up. No one forced you to say that. You did and I assumed you would be able to prove it if asked to do so.

Psyychoward86
02-10-2010, 09:55 PM
Show me anyone that runs more shorter routes than Arians scheme and i'd be happy !! lol

we have a very diverse mix of short/intermediate/long balls in our offense. Your just assuming we throw downfield a lot because of the way Ben holds onto the ball. The wide receiver get some flak in this problem too you know...

Prok
02-10-2010, 11:02 PM
To make it out to be that Manning relies heavily on YAC and Ben does it is quite a claim, don't you think? Especially if you can't back it up.

All I'm asking for is that if you're going to make such a claim, be prepared to back it up. No one forced you to say that. You did and I assumed you would be able to prove it if asked to do so.

Going by my memory and knowing Arians scheme and having a pretty good feel for the Colts scheme it seems to me that the Cols run more short pass routes than the Steelers. I've long chastized Arians scheme for being part of the reason Ben holds the ball longer than the other top QB's. Not saying it's all on the scheme but enough of it from my view.

Anyhow, my view is not to under-rate Ben. He means more to our team than a Manning or Brady would imo. And he can make ALL the throws and reads that they do. The proof for me is when there is a pretty decent pass rush pressure he NEVER looks panicked or pressured. Manning and Brady? It forces them out of their game. It affects them and it's noticeable imo.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Arians system as well. How about you answering a question for me now rather than trying to prove me as a phony ? Let's have a good discussion here if possible.

What's your true thoughts on our scheme? Does the scheme make Ben or does Ben make the scheme, or are they complimentary ? These are important questions IMo and may explain why I feel you undervalue Ben.

Also since Ben has quite a few years left, what's his talent ceiling in your opinion.

Looking forward to discussion.

Prok
02-10-2010, 11:11 PM
we have a very diverse mix of short/intermediate/long balls in our offense. Your just assuming we throw downfield a lot because of the way Ben holds onto the ball. The wide receiver get some flak in this problem too you know...

OK I realze i'm new here and whatnot. And you made a valid point. It is my contention that a Ben at times has to move in the pocket and hang onto the ball to help get the WR's some separation as well. Whereas I really don't think a Brady or Manning have to do that as much too. Am I wrong in that observation ?

Looking forward to discussion with you too.

FTR I hope nobody thinks i'm the newb trying to either disrupt the board or cause a ruckus. Just expressing my opinions as best I can. Hopefully i don't come off as a disruptive person.


I really want to try n fit in here.

Psyychoward86
02-10-2010, 11:23 PM
OK I realze i'm new here and whatnot. And you made a valid point. It is my contention that a Ben at times has to move in the pocket and hang onto the ball to help get the WR's some separation as well. Whereas I really don't think a Brady or Manning have to do that as much too. Am I wrong in that observation ?

Looking forward to discussion with you too.

FTR I hope nobody thinks i'm the newb trying to either disrupt the board or cause a ruckus. Just expressing my opinions as best I can. Hopefully i don't come off as a disruptive person.


I really want to try n fit in here.

no, what im saying is that our wide receivers' inability at times to get open is directly responsible for some of Ben's sacks. Brady and Manning just throw it away if no one's open. Hines, Santo, Miller, and Wallace's stats wouldnt look nearly as gaudy if Ben didnt hold onto the rock for them. If anything, Ben's receivers' should thank him. This isnt directed to you, just everyone in general.

Prok
02-10-2010, 11:31 PM
no, what im saying is that our wide receivers' inability at times to get open is directly responsible for some of Ben's sacks. Brady and Manning just throw it away if no one's open. Hines, Santo, Miller, and Wallace's stats wouldnt look nearly as gaudy if Ben didnt hold onto the rock for them. If anything, Ben's receivers' should thank him. This isnt directed to you, just everyone in general.

Gotcha. And it's another reason as to why Ben is a great QB IMO. Yet you won't catch him dead be-littling a WR or throwing any of them under the bus when that happens.

Mark my words. When Ben matures just a bit more and realizes throwing the ball away at times is not such a bad thing we'll all rejoice. :tt:

MasterOfPuppets
02-10-2010, 11:41 PM
Yards After Catch Leaders - All Players

http://espn.go.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/receiving/sort/receivingYardsAfterCatch

Chidi29
02-11-2010, 01:09 AM
Going by my memory and knowing Arians scheme and having a pretty good feel for the Colts scheme it seems to me that the Cols run more short pass routes than the Steelers. I've long chastized Arians scheme for being part of the reason Ben holds the ball longer than the other top QB's. Not saying it's all on the scheme but enough of it from my view.

Anyhow, my view is not to under-rate Ben. He means more to our team than a Manning or Brady would imo. And he can make ALL the throws and reads that they do. The proof for me is when there is a pretty decent pass rush pressure he NEVER looks panicked or pressured. Manning and Brady? It forces them out of their game. It affects them and it's noticeable imo.

I'd like to hear your thoughts on Arians system as well. How about you answering a question for me now rather than trying to prove me as a phony ? Let's have a good discussion here if possible.

What's your true thoughts on our scheme? Does the scheme make Ben or does Ben make the scheme, or are they complimentary ? These are important questions IMo and may explain why I feel you undervalue Ben.

Also since Ben has quite a few years left, what's his talent ceiling in your opinion.

Looking forward to discussion.

According to the link regarding YAC that was just posted, the Steelers have more than Indy.

And according to 2008's air yards, Manning is .2 tenths better than Ben.

http://www.advancednflstats.com/2009/01/air-yards-2008.html

So unless you have some sort of retort to those two links, I think it's safe to say that Manning does not benefit from a bunch of YAC that inflates his numbers.

You think the Colts could survive better without Peyton than we could without Ben? I agree that we'd suffer a big loss not having Ben, but Indy losing Peyton would be a much bigger hit. Just the sheer chemistry he has with guys like Wayne and Clark is enough to make him just as valuable. His ability to pick apart the defense and know (And also call out) where the blitz is coming from is something Ben doesn't seem to be able to do.

Manning is great against the blitz because he's able to pick it up and get the ball out of his hand quickly. That's the key to counter the blitz as I'm sure you know. Read it and get the ball out by the time you've finished your drop. That's why Peyton was only sacked ten times this year (In the regular season) and why the times he does struggle is so noticeable; it happens so rarely. Sure, that's partially due to a good line, but that's one that has been downgraded the past few seasons. Saturday is getting older and he didn't look that great in the Super Bowl IMO and Tarik Glenn retired two years ago, forcing the oft-injured Tony Ugoh and Charlie Johnson into the lineup.

Remember the Jets game in the championship? Manning was sacked twice early on against Ryan's aggressive, exotic scheme. Peyton made the needed adjustments, figured out their tendencies, and they barely got to him the rest of the game. That's Peyton in a nutshell. Supremely smart and plenty talented.

Going back to my good friend....the numbers. They'd back up the fact that Peyton, and Brady to a lesser extent, do well under pressure.

http://profootball.scout.com/2/932036.html

Peyton is ranked second best, only behind Brees (Ironic, I know) against pressure with his completion percentage staying about the same and his YPA, an underrated stat for QBs IMO (And yes, I know that is something Ben is extremely good in, all the credit in the world to him for it), makes a major jump.

Brady, and Ben, both have 60% or better (In Ben's case, much better) completion percentages.

However, Ben is also first in the league in sacks when being blitzed with 25. Again, that goes back to something that he can't do that Peyton can on a consistent basis. Diagnois and react to the blitz. I think we've seen flashes of that from Ben, but it needs to be more consistent. He needs to be able to do it almost all the time, for his and the team's sake.

What should be known is that as much as it seems to be, I am not entirely a numbers guy. I'm well aware the game extends well beyond pure stats, reason being I am so big on Manning. The numbers are quite impressive, but it's what he is able to do when you watch him that really floors me.

Over the course of the regular season, I'd go back and rewatch each Steelers game, taking notes on anything I saw. Who played well, who didn't, a breakdown of a good/bad play, things of that nature. I also broke down each sack that occured over the season and tried to see who was at fault to the best of my abilites. I'll be the first to say that it likely isn't 100% accurate and it's especially tough deciding blame when you're looking at the normal game angle instead of an aireal or end zone angle (Would love it if that's how games were broadcasted). Admittingly, there are likely some cases where a WR was to blame that I couldn't so or a case where it was Ben's fault when he had a WR open he missed and I ended up blaming a lineman for it.

When all was said and done, however, I blamed Ben for the most amount of sacks allowed by one of our guys (Defensive scheme led the way, but I think I was too leniet in putting the blame on them). I don't know the situations where Peyton was sacked, but here are a few examples of Ben going into that "Oh, crap!" mode or not picking up the blitz altogether.

These three are all from one game against Cincy, Week 10.

- 2nd and 7: 3:38: Empty back, everyone goes out, including the TEs. Bengals rush six. Already a mismatch in favor of them. I don't think Ben ever saw the blitz. The LB sort of hid behind Kemo and Fanene. It was sort of a similar play as our LB crosses. They took Peko and had him go around towards RG to draw Hartwig with him. That opened up the middle for Jones.

- 3rd and Goal: 4:54 in the 2nd: There is good coverage all around but Mike Wallace, who Ben was looking at, has a chance on the in route if Ben leads him. It looked like Morgan Trent had his back turned to Wallace for a second; Ben had already looked off Crocker. He had done everything right up until that point. Just have the confidence to lead your main target.

- 1st and goal: 56 seconds left: Bengal's bring the blitz, causing all the lineman to move down one assignment. That lets the DE come free with no one to pick him up since Moore had been motioned out. Instead of Ben reading the defense for a blitz, Ben immediately pump fakes. When he pulls it back, Geathers is all over him for the easy sack.

This one against Oakland...

- 17 seconds left in the 3rd, 3rd and 6: They bring a heavy blitz from pretty much everywhere. A LB/S did shoot through, I believe the "A" gap between Hartwig and Essex and maybe Essex should have taken him instead, following the rule of always getting the inside guy, but I can understand him taking the guy right in front of him and hoping Moore would pick the other guy up (But a corner blitz drew Moore's attention away, hence me saying they blitzed from everywhere). I really would like to blame something other than just going against a good defensive scheme, but I can't in all good conciousness blame it on a lineman. I will give half of it to Ben; they showed blitz all the way and he should have called out an audible.

-------------------

Against the Browns (This one was really bad and is a microcosm for Ben's "Oh crap-ness". I actually use that phrase in my write-up.

- 3rd and 7, 15:00 in the second: This one is really interesting and at the end of the day, I blame Ben. We've run this play before a couple times with different people and we've gotten mixed results; big plays to Holmes or a sack like what happened in week one when Jevon Kearse came flying off the edge and smacked Ben. People blame Colon and that looks like the issue at first glance but when you go back and break it down, it's on Ben. We were running verticals with Ward and Wallace and a slant underneath with Miller. You can tell that Wallace knows he isn't an intended target, at least, not the main one because he intentionally rubs the cornerback to keep him from cleanly jumping over Heath. Colon helps Essex inside likely so the DT can't get inside and get a hand on the slant that'd be coming right over Essex. But with the CB blitz coming right at Ben, he goes into "Oh crap!" mode and tries to take off instead of just making the throw to Heath. That creates the sack.

And finally, from the Ravens game Week 17.

- 2nd and 8, 2:13 in the 1st - Not sure what happened. Ngata spilts Colon and Spaeth and ends up practically plowing over Mendenhall on his way to Ben. Colon was looking to his left to double another lineman, making me think Spaeth was just supposed to hold Ngata for a moment. Another reason why Mendenhall would be to Ben's right as well. You'd think it'd be by design that the ball would supposed to come out of Ben's hand early. Not sure if the playaction we ran jives with that or not. Kind of a toss up.

- 2nd and 19, 5:30 in the 3rd - Put this on Ben and Hartwig (Could be argued that Foster was at fault as well, but Hartwig gets flat out beat by a DT rushing right at him and I don't want to stark breaking down sacks into thirds). Hartwig simply gets beat to the inside by the DT; his pass blocking has really taken a step back the past few weeks. He used to be average but is quickly fading. There's also a CB blitz that Ramon Foster sees, but can't block. Carr puts a little move on him to get by. However, we ran a 5 WR set and the Ravens were showing a heavy blitz sset pre-snap. If you're Ben, you have to know you gotta get the ball out of your hand quickly, assuming you're going to be under duress. And there were guys like Heath open underneath.


---------------------------------

Sorry for that detour. Onto the rest of what you wrote.

I'd be inclined to think the scheme is complimentary. For Arians, you need a good QB if you want his scheme to be successful. Look at how the work he put in with, guess who, Peyton Manning when he was their QB coach when Manning first got to the NFL (No, it wasn't Arians scheme, but he has to get some credit for developing Manning into the player that he is today) and Arians failed with the Browns when they didn't, and still don't, have a QB they can rely upon.

This offense does lend itself into a lot of big play opportunities and in that regard, Ben has shown time and time again to excel there.

However, I think in any pass-oriented scheme, you have to be a smart QB. Ben is given a lot of freedom, Phil Simms said he called as many plays as any QB did this year, and with that freedom, comes a lot of responsibility. The game is just that mental these days. You have to be a student of the game; constantly watching film, becoming a smarter player just as Manning has. And there are times where I just don't see that from Ben. Some situations, as illustrated above, where you stop and think "When, if ever, will that light come on?" In short, as is the case for most successful offenses, the two compliment each other.


Ben's ceiling? As far as I'm concerned, the sky is the limit. The guy has so much potential that he hasn't tapped into yet. And it really comes back down to consistency. Will he always be able to look as good as he can or will there seem to be as many "Doh!" moments as there are ones that make us go, "I'm glad he's on our side." I expect him to improve and of course, hope he is able to reach his full potential, but there are a lot of times I question if he will.

If not now, when?

SMR
02-11-2010, 04:39 PM
Harris: When it counts, Manning bows to Ben
http://www.pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/steelers/s_666248.html
By John Harris, PITTSBURGH TRIBUNE-REVIEW

John Harris is a Pittsburgh Tribune-Review sports columnist and can be reached at

All things being equal, give me No. 7.

In the NFL's biggest game, on its grandest stage, I'll take Steelers quarterback Ben Roethlisberger over Indianapolis Colts' wunderkind Peyton Manning to win a Super Bowl.

The Colts' 31-17 loss to New Orleans in Super Bowl XLIV, in which Manning was statistically brilliant but flawed in the clutch, highlighted critical differences between two iconic players who are successful despite wildly contrasting styles.

Manning has few peers in regards to family pedigree and gaudy statistics. His father, Archie, was a star quarterback with the Saints before the team's current quarterback, Drew Brees, was born. Younger brother Eli was the MVP of Super Bowl XLII with the New York Giants.

Peyton is the only player in league history to win four MVPs. He has passed for 4,000 yards in a season a record 10 times.

Roethlisberger's next league MVP will be his first. He topped the 4,000-yard milestone for the first time this season

Roethlisberger didn't grow up with a silver spoon in his mouth. In fact, he didn't play quarterback until his senior year in high school. He attended Miami — Miami University, not the "U" in South Florida, which is famous for churning out NFL stars.

Here's the catch. Manning, the so-called greatest quarterback in league history — as he was portrayed by fawning members of the national media leading up to Super Bowl XLIV — isn't even the best quarterback in Super Bowl history.

Manning is 1-1 in Super Bowls. He was named MVP in the Colts' win over Chicago in Super Bowl XLI. He is among a large number of quarterbacks with one Super Bowl victory — Brad Johnson, Trent Dilfer and Jeff Hostetler included. Winning one Super Bowl is big, but many quarterbacks — far less accomplished than Manning — have done that.

Roethlisberger is 2-0 in Super Bowls. He's on a much shorter list of quarterbacks with at least two Super Bowl victories without a loss, a list that includes Terry Bradshaw (4-0), Joe Montana (4-0), Troy Aikman (3-0), Bart Starr (2-0) and Jim Plunkett (2-0) — and he's the only active quarterback to do so.

Roethlisberger is also 0-2 in winning Super Bowl MVPs — but that's a credit to teammate Santonio Holmes, who was brilliant with nine receptions for 131 yards and the game-winning touchdown catch against Arizona in Super Bowl XLIII.

Roethlisberger did as much to help the Steelers win Super Bowl XLIII as Manning did to help the Colts win Super Bowl XLI, but only Manning was named MVP.

Manning, known for his pinpoint accuracy, never threw a better pass under pressure than the one Roethlisberger completed to Holmes in the closing minute of Super Bowl XLIII. Roethlisberger's innate ability to execute comfortably under duress is what makes him special in big games.

To Roethlisberger, playing football is all in the backyard. It's a game he plays exceedingly well — sometimes, by his own rules.

Roethlisberger throws on the run, throws off his back foot, throws across his body and throws into coverage. At times, he's a bulked-up version of Fran Tarkenton, scrambling to elude potential tacklers while buying time for his receivers to get open.

Unlike Manning, Roethlisberger rarely gives up on a play.

Manning, on the other hand, plays quarterback by the book, sometimes to his detriment.

New Orleans cornerback Tracy Porter said knowing Manning's tendencies helped him on a 74-yard interception return for a touchdown in the fourth quarter.

One of Roethlisberger's best qualities is his ability to shake off a mistake and focus on the next play. A bad throw in a big game doesn't diminish his aggressiveness.

Roethlisberger, who's 8-2 in the postseason, saved his best for the last drive against Arizona in the Super Bowl. Before that drive, his performance had been average.

Manning, whose career playoff record is only 9-9, failed once again to shake his nagging reputation for being a sensational regular-season quarterback who's mediocre at best in the postseason.

If, on the other hand, you prefer a quarterback who excels during crunch time and wins big games, Roethlisberger's track record gives him the edge over Manning, who's been touted by some as the greatest passer ever

That is a fantastic article and interesting in many points. Roethlisberger DOES have a better overall postseason record than Manning so far, and that counts BIG.

:tt04::helmet::tt04:

steelerdude15
02-11-2010, 04:55 PM
Roethlisberger is also 0-2 in winning Super Bowl MVPs — but that's a credit to teammate Santonio Holmes, who was brilliant with nine receptions for 131 yards and the game-winning touchdown catch against Arizona in Super Bowl XLIII.
I still believe that Ben deserved to be the MVP of that game.

SMR
02-11-2010, 04:57 PM
I still believe that Ben deserved to be the MVP of that game.

I was thinking the same thing. I also thought Ben should have at least been Co-MVP of the game, no less. He was a stud in that game, dang!

:helmet:

steelerdude15
02-11-2010, 05:01 PM
I was thinking the same thing. I also thought Ben should have at least been Co-MVP of the game, no less. He was a stud in that game, dang!
Yeah I mean, he was the one who led the drive down the field. He's also driven down other times like against the Packers this year, the Ravens last year for the division title, etc.

SMR
02-11-2010, 05:04 PM
Yeah I mean, he was the one who led the drive down the field. He's also driven down other times like against the Packers this year, the Ravens last year for the division title, etc.

During most of that SB game, Ben was on fire. He refused to go down and was fighting mad, lol.

steelerdude15
02-11-2010, 05:07 PM
During most of that SB game, Ben was on fire. He refused to go down and was fighting mad, lol.
He has always amazed us Steelers fans... and also frightens us at times. :flap:

SMR
02-11-2010, 05:55 PM
He has always amazed us Steelers fans... and also frightens us at times. :flap:

lol

ricksteelers55
02-12-2010, 01:26 AM
As a guy who lives in the Montreal area I will make the following comparison.Ben reminds me a lot like Patrick Roy(habs and avalanches goalie).Sometimes Roy gave bad goals,but when the pressure was on his shoulders you could always count on him to stand up and make the key saves

Same for Ben.Ben sometimes will make dumb throws,but when it's all said and done he's the guy you want at QB when it matters the most.

just like my favorite childhood QB Joe Montana,Ben is Mr.Clutch

steel striker
02-13-2010, 04:32 AM
Ben is clutch and, clutch is everything. Don't get me wrong Peyton is a great qb and, will probably have just about every regular season passing record. To me it is the post season that matters the most.

mojawi
02-14-2010, 01:46 PM
Good point.

Manning and Ben are two very different QBs. I know that's an understatement but every couple years Ben has some story or event that comes out that does not reflect well on the organization. That matters. Peyton hasn't done that. Business wise, I'd take Peyton.

On the field, Manning has won, what, 4 MVPs or something like that? If I were in charge of a team, I'd move heaven and earth for the chance to sign him. Ben has the knack of making things happen when it matters. Manning has been inconsistent there. I guess if both were available for similar money and let's say both were magically the same age I'd take either. Seriously, I can't see a difference there. Both make their WRs look better than they would on a different team. Both play out of multiple receiver sets in a pass-to-set-up-the-run offense.

I would take Ben over Brees, Brady, Favre, Warner, and Rivers. No doubt it raises in interesting point that Ben's play has earned him every right to be included in elite QB discussions. Two SB wins (though one was thanks to Randal El), who has been better?

Psyychoward86
02-14-2010, 02:03 PM
Good point.

Manning and Ben are two very different QBs. I know that's an understatement but every couple years Ben has some story or event that comes out that does not reflect well on the organization. That matters. Peyton hasn't done that. Business wise, I'd take Peyton.



um, that happened once, and more than likely isnt true?

mojawi
02-14-2010, 02:13 PM
The incident in question plus the riding a motorcycle without a helmet downtown. It's enough to take notice.

mikegrimey
02-14-2010, 09:46 PM
Riding a motorcycle without a helmet reflects poorly on Ben's intellect, not on the organization.

The rape accusations are still just that, accusations, so it hasn't reflected poorly on anybody.
That's nothing to take notice of.

Prok
02-15-2010, 10:20 PM
As a guy who lives in the Montreal area I will make the following comparison.Ben reminds me a lot like Patrick Roy(habs and avalanches goalie).Sometimes Roy gave bad goals,but when the pressure was on his shoulders you could always count on him to stand up and make the key saves

Same for Ben.Ben sometimes will make dumb throws,but when it's all said and done he's the guy you want at QB when it matters the most.

just like my favorite childhood QB Joe Montana,Ben is Mr.Clutch

Agreed. whether some want to admit it or not, they ALL have weaknesses.

Give me Ben any day over <insert qb here>.

Prok
02-15-2010, 10:30 PM
Ben's ceiling? As far as I'm concerned, the sky is the limit. The guy has so much potential that he hasn't tapped into yet. And it really comes back down to consistency. Will he always be able to look as good as he can or will there seem to be as many "Doh!" moments as there are ones that make us go, "I'm glad he's on our side." I expect him to improve and of course, hope he is able to reach his full potential, but there are a lot of times I question if he will.

If not now, when?

Thanks for making that point. I dunno how much of Peyton you watched but he's still having "doh" moments. Matter of fact, all QB's do no matter how long they play.

Agreed the sky is the limit for Ben. My one concern is as I stated that he holds the ball longer and takes too many hits.

Stats can bend a debate any way a poster wants imo and it's not my choice to use them. I try and go by what I see in game action. And what I see is that Ben is a much more gutzy QB that is about as concentrated as ya can get in the clutch so far in his career. I can't be the only one seeing the look of disgust in manning's eyes etc..

I trust my eyes and judgement over stats.

Either way, I'm happy Ben is ours and nowhere else.

Funny thing for me is i used to live in cleveland and now I visit often so it's always fun rubbing it in to clowns fans that they passed on him. :tt:

Prok
02-15-2010, 10:36 PM
I still believe that Ben deserved to be the MVP of that game.

And Ben would have been named MVP had it not been for a fluke tipped INT earlier. Peyton or brady puts those stats and drive up? MVP hands down imo. The guy played a GREAT game but doesn't get the credit a Manning or Brady does.

It won't deter me from believing he's the best.

I'd venture to guess that some 3-5 years down the road a collective light will go on across the media universe. "OMGZ this Benz is teh awesomez".

:chuckle:

Chidi29
02-15-2010, 10:55 PM
Thanks for making that point. I dunno how much of Peyton you watched but he's still having "doh" moments. Matter of fact, all QB's do no matter how long they play.

Agreed the sky is the limit for Ben. My one concern is as I stated that he holds the ball longer and takes too many hits.

Stats can bend a debate any way a poster wants imo and it's not my choice to use them. I try and go by what I see in game action. And what I see is that Ben is a much more gutzy QB that is about as concentrated as ya can get in the clutch so far in his career. I can't be the only one seeing the look of disgust in manning's eyes etc..

I trust my eyes and judgement over stats.

Either way, I'm happy Ben is ours and nowhere else.

Funny thing for me is i used to live in cleveland and now I visit often so it's always fun rubbing it in to clowns fans that they passed on him. :tt:

I don't know why you're thinking I'm talking in absolutes. I'm obviously not and well aware that Peyton screws up. Again, I'm not painting him to be invincible. But his share of mistakes are much less frequent than that of Ben while providing just as many, if not more, "Wow" plays.

I'm trying to compromise with you. I used stats and I used game footage. I've said it before here on steelersfever in a debate about Bruce Arians. In my experience, and of course, this is purely my opinion, those who disregard stats just find it much easier to dismiss them than to actually attempt to dispute them.

I too am glad Ben is in the Bugh. We could do a lot worse. Heck, we have done a lot worse. *Shudders as Kent Graham's name passes through my head* But just because we're glad to have him, doesn't make him a top 15 QB of all time right now. In your opinion, anyways.

LambertIsGod58
02-16-2010, 08:28 AM
As I stated in another thread, in my view compiling a list of greatest QB's is pretty much all subjective. I don't think any 2 of us here would have the same list.

In reguards to Ben. He's hopefully still got 8-10 years left of playing in him so it is harder for me (and unfair to him) to place him on any all-time list.

Like my number 1 all time QB is John Elway. Who is yours?

I had thought i had a well thought out post about the reasoning for me choosing Ben over Peyton.

It's all good by me though. I just don't have Peyton ranking as highly as you do.

I'd like to think i'm not such a homer to be blinded into choosing Ben. I choose Ben because he's a hell of a QB and winner.

John Elway was 2-3 in the Super Bowl......how could he be the greatest of all time if Montana and Bradshaw won four titles?

LambertIsGod58
02-16-2010, 08:54 AM
Before I get killed for this.....I know this is just one opinion.

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/118647-the-10-worst-quarterbacks-to-win-a-super-bowl#page/3

Big Ben is consistently average in the regular season and the post season, except in the fourth quarter when the game counts. Ben only makes the list because he had the worst performance ever for a QB on team which won the Super Bowl.

He had 123 yards and 2 interceptions in Super Bowl XL, for a QB rating of 22.6. In two Super Bowls he has a total of 349 yards, one touchdown, and three interceptions. That averages out to 174 yards, .5 touchdowns, and 1.5 interceptions. That's not very good, but he seems to find ways to win.

He also has a newer version of "The Steel Curtian" on the other side of the ball, which will now be recognized as one of the top five defenses of all time. Ben has many more years to play, and a great chance to easily come off this list and join the "10 Greatest QB's to Win a Super Bowl" list.

LambertIsGod58
02-16-2010, 08:56 AM
I would agree that Ben is a more clutch QB.....but to say he's better all time at this point is laughable. If you want to say he's got more rings......Bradshaw has twice as many as Elway. And you can't give the stats argument to Ben either. Don't see the logic at all.

Prok
02-16-2010, 11:49 AM
John Elway was 2-3 in the Super Bowl......how could he be the greatest of all time if Montana and Bradshaw won four titles?

Consider the cast that surrounded Bradshaw and Montana maybe?

Many won't agree (and it's fine), but Elway was the best QB i've ever seen play the game.

Prok
02-16-2010, 12:03 PM
I don't know why you're thinking I'm talking in absolutes. I'm obviously not and well aware that Peyton screws up. Again, I'm not painting him to be invincible. But his share of mistakes are much less frequent than that of Ben while providing just as many, if not more, "Wow" plays.

I'm trying to compromise with you. I used stats and I used game footage. I've said it before here on steelersfever in a debate about Bruce Arians. In my experience, and of course, this is purely my opinion, those who disregard stats just find it much easier to dismiss them than to actually attempt to dispute them.

I too am glad Ben is in the Bugh. We could do a lot worse. Heck, we have done a lot worse. *Shudders as Kent Graham's name passes through my head* But just because we're glad to have him, doesn't make him a top 15 QB of all time right now. In your opinion, anyways.

It's all cool Chidi. At the end of the day we are both Steelers fans and both want the same thing for Ben. I am just of the opinion that Ben is the best QB. I'd really like to see Ben run a no-huddle where he calls plays and audibles at the line but i know we'll never get to see that. His home games are out in the elements and he plays for a traditional smashmouth franchise.


I STILL believe that had our defense been able to play up to their potential, we'd have been in a playoff meeting with the Colts and be having much different discussions today.

Kent Graham: At one point I thought he'd be the one to push Kordell out the door. :doh:

It still baffles the crap out of me as to why we could never draft a possible franchise QB between Bradshaw and Ben.

Good Lord we did have to hitch our hopes to some crappy QB wagon's over the years huh ?

:banging: