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Vincent
02-24-2010, 11:04 AM
Fascinating story and remarkable young man. This inside perspective confirms much discussion we've had in other threads...

“That is against what their God tells them. It is impossible to make peace with infidels, only a cease-fire, and no one knows that better than I. The Hamas leadership is responsible for the killing of Palestinians, not Israelis."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article7039011.ece
February 24, 2010
Son of Hamas founder spied for Israel for more than a decade

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00689/hamasson_689030a.jpg

(Fox News)
Mosab Hassan Yousef, a 32-year-old convert to Christianity, now lives in California

The son of one of Hamas’s founding members was a spy in the service of Israel for more than a decade, helping prevent dozens of Islamist suicide bombers from finding their targets, it emerged today.

Codenamed the Green Prince by Shin Bet, Israel’s internal security service, Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas co-founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef, supplied key intelligence on an almost daily basis from 1996 onwards and tracked down suicide bombers and their handlers from his father’s organization, the daily Haaretz said.
Information he supplied led to the arrests of some of the most wanted men by Israeli forces, including Marwan Barghouti, a Fatah leader often tipped as a potential president who was convicted of masterminding terrorist attacks, and one of Hamas’ top bomb-makers Abdullah Barghouti, who is no relation of the jailed Fatah chief.

Mr Yousef, a 32-year-old convert to Christianity who now lives in California, has revealed the intrigues of his years as a spy in a new book called Son of Hamas, much to the concern of Shin Bet, whose operations will be revealed in detail. While the revelations may give a boost to Israel’s intelligence service, whose external counterpart Mossad is still grappling with the diplomatic fall-out of last month’s Hamas assassination in Dubai, there will be concern that the account may give too many insights into the murky world of espionage.

However, Mr Yousef’s work will be far more damaging to Hamas, whose brutality he denounced. Dubai police have suggested that Mahmoud al-Mabhuh, the top Hamas militant found dead in a hotel room in the emirate on January 20, may have been betrayed by an insider from the Islamist movement itself.

And Mr Yousef had harsh words for the movement that his father helped form, and which now rules the Gaza Strip after a bloody takeover in summer 2007. “Hamas cannot make peace with the Israelis,” he told the daily. “That is against what their God tells them. It is impossible to make peace with infidels, only a cease-fire, and no one knows that better than I. The Hamas leadership is responsible for the killing of Palestinians, not Israelis."

Mr Yousef’s former Israeli handler, identified only as Captain Loai, praised the resolve of his agent, whose codename derived from the colour of Islam – and Hamas’ – banner and from his exalted position within an organization that regularly kills those suspected of collaborating with the Jewish state.

"So many people owe him their life and don't even know it," he said. "The amazing thing is that none of his actions were done for money. He did things he believed in. He wanted to save lives. His grasp of intelligence matters was just as good as ours — the ideas, the insights. One insight of his was worth 1,000 hours of thought by top experts."

Mr Yousef, whose father is still in an Israeli jail cell, from where he was elected as an MP in 2006, went as far as tracking down would-be kamikazes himself in the streets of the West bank during the Second Intifada which erupted a decade ago and left thousands of Palestinians and Israelis dead. On one occasion he followed a bomber from Manara Square in the centre of Ramallah, just north of Jerusalem.

“We didn't know his name or what he looked like — only that he was in his 20s and would be wearing a red shirt," said the former handler. "We sent the Green Prince to the square and with his acute sense, he located the target within minutes. He saw who picked him up, followed the car and made it possible for us to arrest the suicide bomber and the man who was supposed to give him the belt. So another attack was thwarted, though no one knows about it. No one opens Champagne bottles or bursts into song and dance. This was an almost daily thing for the Prince. He displayed courage, had sharp antennae and an ability to cope with danger."

Mr Yousef, who converted from Islam to Christianity a decade ago – in itself, a dangerous act – was arrested by the Israelis in 1996 and within a year had been recruited by Shin Bet, then released to begin working as an informant.

Speaking by telephone from California, Mr Yousef told Haaretz he worried that the Israeli Government might release some of the prisoners he helped put behind bars in exchange for Gilad Schalit, a young Israeli soldier abducted by Hamas from the Gaza border more than three years ago.

“I wish I were in Gaza now," he said. "I would put on an army uniform and join Israel's special forces in order to liberate Gilad Schalit. If I were there, I could help. We wasted so many years with investigations and arrests to capture the very terrorists that they now want to release in return for Schalit. That must not be done."

urgle burgle
02-24-2010, 04:02 PM
an amazing man....very brave and honor bound. i just wonder how this will be spun by Hamas and their sympathizers. to include the Israel haters that only "comprehend and commiserate" with the Palestinians.

AllD
02-24-2010, 06:21 PM
Sounds like it would make a great movie.

SteelersMongol
02-25-2010, 01:18 AM
When I saw the title, I was thinking about some traitor who switched sides 4 money. But now... WOW... what a nice story. Young man who has his senses. Wish there was more guys like him.

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 02:53 AM
Is Jonathan Pollard also an amazing, remarkable man? What about Larry Franklin, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman? The list of wonderful men in US Federal prison is quite long, I'd say.

SteelerEmpire
02-25-2010, 03:41 AM
Quote:

"The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can also add the Crusader's and the Nazi's to the above list...(among others)....
I commend and salute the "Green Prince" for his actions... An example of a light in a dark tunnel that hints at the conclusion that the current enemies of the Jewish state will eventually be added to the list as well...

SteelersMongol
02-25-2010, 03:47 AM
Is Jonathan Pollard also an amazing, remarkable man? What about Larry Franklin, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman? The list of wonderful men in US Federal prison is quite long, I'd say.

Unless it involved money. :coffee:

Vincent
02-25-2010, 09:50 AM
i just wonder how this will be spun by Hamas and their sympathizers. to include the Israel haters that only "comprehend and commiserate" with the Palestinians.

I was looking forward to how Ric would spin it. And oh, look...

Is Jonathan Pollard also an amazing, remarkable man? What about Larry Franklin, Steve Rosen and Keith Weissman? The list of wonderful men in US Federal prison is quite long, I'd say.

What do these folks have to do with this story?

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 11:35 AM
What do these folks have to do with this story?

These are Israeli spies, and I guess they are therefore amazing, remarkable men, at least as per the previous postings in this thread.

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 11:46 AM
Quote:

"The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed; and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other people have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?”

- Mark Twain
(“Concerning The Jews,” Harper’s Magazine, 1899
see The Complete Essays of Mark Twain, Doubleday [1963] pg. 249)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
You can also add the Crusader's and the Nazi's to the above list...(among others)....
I commend and salute the "Green Prince" for his actions... An example of a light in a dark tunnel that hints at the conclusion that the current enemies of the Jewish state will eventually be added to the list as well...

I'm imagining myself as a Jew - or even just as my non-Jew self - and wondering what I would prefer: perpetuating some veneer of cultural übermensch invincibility, or getting back the eleven to seventeen million all-to-fragile, all-to-human lives that were lost in the Holocaust. I would say keep your spin and give me back my brothers and sisters.

As far as the "enemies of the Jewish state", there are at least two problems. Firstly, I remain unconvinced that Israel is anything other than a thug, rogue state which has no genuine concern for human life or wellbeing, Jew or non-Jew (I can refer you to numerous Israeli dissidents who agree with me). Secondly, Israeli leadership has confirmed that the U.S. is a potential target of Israeli nuclear missile strikes, making you and I "enemies of the Jewish state". I am assuming here that you are a U.S. citizen or resident... sorry if I am wrong.

Vincent
02-25-2010, 11:54 AM
These are Israeli spies, and I guess they are therefore amazing, remarkable men, at least as per the previous postings in this thread.

This thread is about Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas co-founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef. It is about his decision to help save lives. The thread has nothing to do with anybody's spies rotting in anybody's jails, except that you chose to take it there.

Secondly, Israeli leadership has confirmed that the U.S. is a potential target of Israeli nuclear missile strikes, making you and I "enemies of the Jewish state".

Link?

SteelerEmpire
02-25-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm imagining myself as a Jew - or even just as my non-Jew self - and wondering what I would prefer: perpetuating some veneer of cultural übermensch invincibility, or getting back the eleven to seventeen million all-to-fragile, all-to-human lives that were lost in the Holocaust. I would say keep your spin and give me back my brothers and sisters.

As far as the "enemies of the Jewish state", there are at least two problems. Firstly, I remain unconvinced that Israel is anything other than a thug, rogue state which has no genuine concern for human life or wellbeing, Jew or non-Jew (I can refer you to numerous Israeli dissidents who agree with me). Secondly, Israeli leadership has confirmed that the U.S. is a potential target of Israeli nuclear missile strikes, making you and I "enemies of the Jewish state". I am assuming here that you are a U.S. citizen or resident... sorry if I am wrong.
-----------------------------
A "thug state" ?? First, let me give you another quote form another "non-jew " of notoriety.
Quote.
“I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”

- John Adams, Second President of the United States
(From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, Israel has the highest literacy rate of "any " nation on earth....in addtion to the lowest crime rate (Jew on Jew)... so I fail to see your description of "thug state" to be legit. Conversely. How can you make peace with a people that writes in their doctrine they must kill you and never make peace ? This is the current position of extremist Islam... so the logical results in Israel's actions will follow.
If you are not a Jew, which I am a Jew, how can you put your shoes in or even understand the position of a Jew ? I submit I would not have wanted the Holocaust to occur "and " 'keep my spin'.
Also, I don't know which Israeli dissidents your referring to, but the mass majority that I know (and I'm an Israeli citizen as well as US) believe Israel is a blessing...
And once again, like all the rest of the enemies of "God's chosen people" (folks really get mad when that's used)... the current ones (enemies) "will" make the list on my previous post... just like the rest of them did.... :thumbsup:

SteelersMongol
02-25-2010, 07:04 PM
... Israeli leadership has confirmed that the U.S. is a potential target of Israeli nuclear missile strikes, making you and I "enemies of the Jewish state". I am assuming here that you are a U.S. citizen or resident... sorry if I am wrong.

So now, it's just Israel vs. the WORLD? :chuckle: Y would they they say anything like the US is their "enemy" when pretty much the US is the only country that has Israel's back? I'm sorry sir, but U & your "Israeli friends" U talked about must've been smoking something not that good. :coffee:

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 10:04 PM
This thread is about Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas co-founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef. It is about his decision to help save lives. The thread has nothing to do with anybody's spies rotting in anybody's jails, except that you chose to take it there.

I don't know what the thread is about, but the article you posted here is about the assistance this man lent to the Israeli security forces, who (as we have already covered in at least one other thread) have much blood on their hands. Indeed, they are the primary aggressor in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, certainly in terms of tactics and body count. Helping them is not the same as saving lives, but quite the opposite. If he wanted to save lives, he could have taken part in the growing and vibrant bilateral peace movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projects_working_for_peace_among_Israelis_and_Arab s) within Israel/Palestine. But he didn't.

Link?

I did not get this from the web, but from a book (most likely Understanding Power) as well as several newsletter articles, I believe in Counterpunch. I'll turn on the Google-finger tomorrow and try to find the pertinent citations. In the meantime, you can probably find, all on your own, numerous policy papers describing Israel's "nuclear blackmail" of the United States, whereby they regularly threaten to literally go ballistic if the US doesn't instead intervene on their behalf.

As an aside, I'd like to commend you for demanding references from people. I think this world would be a much better place if people's automatic reaction to any claim made in their direction was some variety of "Prove it" or "Why should I believe you?" Keep up the good work... but make sure you apply this tool across the board, and not just towards those you perceive to be to the Left of you.

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 10:40 PM
-----------------------------
A "thug state" ?? First, let me give you another quote form another "non-jew " of notoriety.
Quote.
“I will insist the Hebrews have [contributed] more to civilize men than any other nation. If I was an atheist and believed in blind eternal fate, I should still believe that fate had ordained the Jews to be the most essential instrument for civilizing the nations ... They are the most glorious nation that ever inhabited this Earth. The Romans and their empire were but a bubble in comparison to the Jews. They have given religion to three-quarters of the globe and have influenced the affairs of mankind more and more happily than any other nation, ancient or modern.”

- John Adams, Second President of the United States
(From a letter to F. A. Van der Kemp [Feb. 16, 1808] Pennsylvania Historical Society)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In addition, Israel has the highest literacy rate of "any " nation on earth....in addtion to the lowest crime rate (Jew on Jew)... so I fail to see your description of "thug state" to be legit. Conversely. How can you make peace with a people that writes in their doctrine they must kill you and never make peace ? This is the current position of extremist Islam... so the logical results in Israel's actions will follow.
If you are not a Jew, which I am a Jew, how can you put your shoes in or even understand the position of a Jew ? I submit I would not have wanted the Holocaust to occur "and " 'keep my spin'.
Also, I don't know which Israeli dissidents your referring to, but the mass majority that I know (and I'm an Israeli citizen as well as US) believe Israel is a blessing...
And once again, like all the rest of the enemies of "God's chosen people" (folks really get mad when that's used)... the current ones (enemies) "will" make the list on my previous post... just like the rest of them did.... :thumbsup:

Ummm... actually, Israel is tied with Greece for 56th in the world in terms of literacy. Why that matters, I don't know, but I suspect that you will have some unbelievably clever way to dig your way out of the fact that Cuba is actually Number One in the world.

As for their Jew-on-Jew crime rate, how do you know that Sweden's Jew-on-Jew crime rate isn't lower, or that the United States' Quaker-on-Quaker crime rates aren't lower? Actually, I think Cuba's Jew-on-Jew crime rate is once again Number One! Let's just give Cuba everything. Would you like to revise your assessment, taking into account all of Israel's residents? May I ask where you are getting your stats?

As for the Adams quote, since he could not possibly have been writing about the state of Israel, I don't know how it is in the least bit pertinent. We are talking about a particularly brutal state, which would be in violation of several dozen Security Council resolutions but for the US veto. This has nothing whatsoever to do with generalizations about Judaism or Hebrew culture.

As far as Muslims eating children and worshiping Satan and whatever else... whatever... I have nothing invested in it emotionally. I happen to think all of the world's religions are pretty equally worthless. I give a few of them bonus points, like the Baha'i, the Quakers and Unitarians, but only minimally so. There's nothing particularly monolithic about Islam, though... there are variations, degrees, dissidents, etc. I can give you quotes from two of the most reviled Muslims in recent Israeli political lore:

"Our religious beliefs are against the use of such weapons. We in no way believe in an atomic weapon and do not seek one.” Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
"The death of even one Jew is a crime." Mohammad Khatami

Obviously, you can claim that they are just saying that, and don't mean it. Unfortunately, people in this forum don't appear to be able to apply the same critical razor to the words that come out of "our leaders" mouths, as they can with "their leaders". It's a shame, and a big part of the problem.

SteelCityMom
02-25-2010, 11:14 PM
This thread is about Mosab Hassan Yousef, the son of Hamas co-founder Sheikh Hassan Yousef. It is about his decision to help save lives. The thread has nothing to do with anybody's spies rotting in anybody's jails, except that you chose to take it there.


Don't worry...except for Pollard (who plead guilty), none of those American (alleged) spies are rotting in Federal prison lol. Franklin got the worst of it when he was initially sentenced to 13 years, but it was repealed to probation and 10 months house arrest and his charges were downgraded from espionage to unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

Rosen was under indictment, but the charges were dropped. He is now suing the AIPAC for slander and libel.

Weissman's case was also dismissed with Rosen's.

I don't know all of the little intricacies of the cases, but I know it's basically that some sensitive information about Iran was passed on to Israel via Franklin and his staffers. Franklin had actually pled guilty to espionage from what I recall. I, like you, am not sure what this has to do with the article you posted.

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 11:23 PM
So now, it's just Israel vs. the WORLD? :chuckle: Y would they they say anything like the US is their "enemy" when pretty much the US is the only country that has Israel's back? I'm sorry sir, but U & your "Israeli friends" U talked about must've been smoking something not that good. :coffee:

Why did Israel attack the USS Liberty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident)? What could they possibly have gained by it? What can I tell you... people do stupid shit, nowhere more so than in the international arena.

ricardisimo
02-25-2010, 11:35 PM
Don't worry...except for Pollard (who plead guilty), none of those American (alleged) spies are rotting in Federal prison lol. Franklin got the worst of it when he was initially sentenced to 13 years, but it was repealed to probation and 10 months house arrest and his charges were downgraded from espionage to unauthorized disclosure of classified information.

Rosen was under indictment, but the charges were dropped. He is now suing the AIPAC for slander and libel.

Weissman's case was also dismissed with Rosen's.

I don't know all of the little intricacies of the cases, but I know it's basically that some sensitive information about Iran was passed on to Israel via Franklin and his staffers. Franklin had actually pled guilty to espionage from what I recall. I, like you, am not sure what this has to do with the article you posted.

Well, I'm happy for all of these wonderful, peace-loving men. Maybe they're all living in California now, writing books.

Now I am going off-track, but... Contrast our mercy in their cases with the Cuban Five. Completely different worlds.

SteelCityMom
02-25-2010, 11:41 PM
Well, I'm happy for all of these wonderful, peace-loving men. Maybe they're all living in California now, writing books.

Now I am going off-track, but... Contrast our mercy in their cases with the Cuban Five. Completely different worlds.

I'm sorry, but what does a Cuban conspiracy to kill Americans have to do with an Israeli man spying on Hamas and preventing suicide bombings?

Yousef is in America because there is a heavy death sentence on him more for his religious conversion than his spying.

ricardisimo
02-26-2010, 12:12 AM
Cuban conspiracy to kill Americans? You're kidding, right? The world really has been turned on its head. Unbelievable.

SteelCityMom
02-26-2010, 12:31 AM
Cuban conspiracy to kill Americans? You're kidding, right? The world really has been turned on its head. Unbelievable.

Yeah, they only obtained employment as laborers at the Key West Naval Air Station and sent the Cuban government detailed reports about the movement of aircraft and military personnel, and descriptions of the layout of the facility and its structures....which directly let to two Brothers of Rescue planes (which carried 4 Americans) to be shot down by Cuban military jets. You're right though...nothing major.

I know there's some controversy surrounding the fact that the venue of the trial was never changed, but it wasn't like they were found guilty of a couple charges...they were found guilty of all 26 charges (including murder for Hernandez).

Again, what does any of this have to do with Yousef?

ricardisimo
02-26-2010, 02:01 AM
Yeah, they only obtained employment as laborers at the Key West Naval Air Station and sent the Cuban government detailed reports about the movement of aircraft and military personnel, and descriptions of the layout of the facility and its structures....which directly let to two Brothers of Rescue planes (which carried 4 Americans) to be shot down by Cuban military jets. You're right though...nothing major.

I know there's some controversy surrounding the fact that the venue of the trial was never changed, but it wasn't like they were found guilty of a couple charges...they were found guilty of all 26 charges (including murder for Hernandez).

Again, what does any of this have to do with Yousef?

No, they got work as custodians at the Key West Naval Station... from which privileged positions they got such detailed information that they were able to help shoot down a plane in Cuban airspace? Amazing. Did they commandeer and fire U.S. surface-to-air missiles at that plane from KWNS? It's an interesting theory, and after one has pondered on it a while, it becomes clear why a change of venue was absolutely necessary.

No, their real crime was actually thinking for even the briefest moment that the United States was serious in its rhetoric decrying international terrorism. So they hand over reams of materials they have collected about planned as well as actualized terrorist acts, including the activities and whereabouts of one Luis Posada Carriles, a convicted and admitted terrorist and mass murderer.

The US acted swiftly with this newfound information! They used it exclusively against the Cuban Five, working hard to eventually have them convicted of - as you say - all 26 counts! 26 counts of what, might I ask? Well, there is that curious murder charge, which I can understand if he did in fact fire a surface-to-air missile at the plane in question. Then there's espionage (Shock! Oh, wait... they're admitted spies.) And then there's the fake ID charge. That's right! The same thing we all did to sneak into bars at seventeen! They're doing 15-to-life for that. Those are the basic charges, and then they are multiplied by "conspiracy" charges: conspiracy to commit espionage, conspiracy to produce fake IDs, conspiracy to jaywalk, etc.

Meanwhile, Posada Carriles is a free man.

You ask what does any of this have to do with Yousef. Nothing, and I said as much two posts ago.

The weirder question is what do the convicted (and/or pardoned) spies for Israel have to do with Yousef. I haven't answered that question because I assumed that you are all somehow asking it rhetorically. This guy was a spy for the Israeli security forces, and somehow he's a wonderful peaceful man because of it. I'm pointing out other spies for the Israeli security forces - spying against your country - and asking if those men aren't also wonderful peacemakers.

C'mon. You guys are foaming-at-the-mouth patriots. Just imagine that Pollard were working for Iran - or better yet Cuba - instead of Israel, and then tell me how you'd feel.

SteelersMongol
02-26-2010, 02:29 AM
Well, I'm happy for all of these wonderful, peace-loving men. Maybe they're all living in California now, writing books.

Now I am going off-track, but... Contrast our mercy in their cases with the Cuban Five. Completely different worlds.

I wonder how U feel about few Chinese spies who were Chinese-Americans?

Cuban conspiracy to kill Americans? You're kidding, right? The world really has been turned on its head. Unbelievable.

Oookey. So am I actually doing my part in hijacking this thread? I mean, article about good young man who helped preventing senseless suicide bombers into this whole "World vs. the Israelis"? Wow. :banging:

SteelerEmpire
02-26-2010, 08:47 AM
Ummm... actually, Israel is tied with Greece for 56th in the world in terms of literacy. Why that matters, I don't know, but I suspect that you will have some unbelievably clever way to dig your way out of the fact that Cuba is actually Number One in the world.

As for their Jew-on-Jew crime rate, how do you know that Sweden's Jew-on-Jew crime rate isn't lower, or that the United States' Quaker-on-Quaker crime rates aren't lower? Actually, I think Cuba's Jew-on-Jew crime rate is once again Number One! Let's just give Cuba everything. Would you like to revise your assessment, taking into account all of Israel's residents? May I ask where you are getting your stats?

As for the Adams quote, since he could not possibly have been writing about the state of Israel, I don't know how it is in the least bit pertinent. We are talking about a particularly brutal state, which would be in violation of several dozen Security Council resolutions but for the US veto. This has nothing whatsoever to do with generalizations about Judaism or Hebrew culture.

As far as Muslims eating children and worshiping Satan and whatever else... whatever... I have nothing invested in it emotionally. I happen to think all of the world's religions are pretty equally worthless. I give a few of them bonus points, like the Baha'i, the Quakers and Unitarians, but only minimally so. There's nothing particularly monolithic about Islam, though... there are variations, degrees, dissidents, etc. I can give you quotes from two of the most reviled Muslims in recent Israeli political lore:

"Our religious beliefs are against the use of such weapons. We in no way believe in an atomic weapon and do not seek one.” Ayatollah Ali Khamenei
"The death of even one Jew is a crime." Mohammad Khatami

Obviously, you can claim that they are just saying that, and don't mean it. Unfortunately, people in this forum don't appear to be able to apply the same critical razor to the words that come out of "our leaders" mouths, as they can with "their leaders". It's a shame, and a big part of the problem.

Actually, I meant the Jewish element of Israel when I referenced the literacy rate. #1 in the world baby.... When you add in the non-Jewish population the literacy rate declines dramatically... Crime rate, lowest. Jew on Jew. I get my stats from a Stanford University and Hebrew University study on the matter.
Let me also add that Jews make up about 33% of the worlds Nobel prize winners... yet are only less than 1% of the worlds population.
Also. Albert Einstein (a Jew) who developed the science that enabled the development of the A-Bomb (E=mc2). Robert Oppenheimer (a Jew) who was in charge of engineering the bomb and about 90% of the scientists in the 'Manhattan Project' were Jewish. How many lives did it save by eliminating the need of a D-day style invasion of Japan ? How many lives has it saved by putting the 'nuclear deterrent' to war on the world stage ?
From the development of the Atomic Bomb, to their economic contribution to this country (the average Jewish income is 80% higher than the national average in the US), Jews have done "way more" than their fair share to make this country a Super Power.
You mentioned the attack on the USS Liberty in another post. Israel was being attacked by 5 different countries (the 6 day war) when the attack on the Liberty occurred. For whatever reason, Israel deemed that ship was falsely impersonating a US ship and was fired upon.

Next. Are you an American citizen ? Because you seem to defend and speak highly of a people that is sworn to the undermining and destruction ( & always burning US Flags) of this country (the US) ?
If you believe in the truth of the quotes of the Ayatollah, I have a bridge to sell you as well...

SteelCityMom
02-26-2010, 09:40 AM
No, they got work as custodians at the Key West Naval Station... from which privileged positions they got such detailed information that they were able to help shoot down a plane in Cuban airspace? Amazing. Did they commandeer and fire U.S. surface-to-air missiles at that plane from KWNS? It's an interesting theory, and after one has pondered on it a while, it becomes clear why a change of venue was absolutely necessary.

No, their real crime was actually thinking for even the briefest moment that the United States was serious in its rhetoric decrying international terrorism. So they hand over reams of materials they have collected about planned as well as actualized terrorist acts, including the activities and whereabouts of one Luis Posada Carriles, a convicted and admitted terrorist and mass murderer.

The US acted swiftly with this newfound information! They used it exclusively against the Cuban Five, working hard to eventually have them convicted of - as you say - all 26 counts! 26 counts of what, might I ask? Well, there is that curious murder charge, which I can understand if he did in fact fire a surface-to-air missile at the plane in question. Then there's espionage (Shock! Oh, wait... they're admitted spies.) And then there's the fake ID charge. That's right! The same thing we all did to sneak into bars at seventeen! They're doing 15-to-life for that. Those are the basic charges, and then they are multiplied by "conspiracy" charges: conspiracy to commit espionage, conspiracy to produce fake IDs, conspiracy to jaywalk, etc.

Meanwhile, Posada Carriles is a free man.

You ask what does any of this have to do with Yousef. Nothing, and I said as much two posts ago.

The weirder question is what do the convicted (and/or pardoned) spies for Israel have to do with Yousef. I haven't answered that question because I assumed that you are all somehow asking it rhetorically. This guy was a spy for the Israeli security forces, and somehow he's a wonderful peaceful man because of it. I'm pointing out other spies for the Israeli security forces - spying against your country - and asking if those men aren't also wonderful peacemakers.

C'mon. You guys are foaming-at-the-mouth patriots. Just imagine that Pollard were working for Iran - or better yet Cuba - instead of Israel, and then tell me how you'd feel.

First off...you needn't compare me to a "foaming at the mouth" Patriot. If your insinuating that I don't form opinions of these matters from my own researching, you are mistaken. If you've come to different conclusions, that's fine. I understand there's some controversy about what happened with the Cuban 5, but they were tried and convicted of all counts...though I do agree that the murder charge was an extreme one, as Hernandez was not actually the one to pilot the jet. And no, they didn't get 15 to life for producing fake ID's (way to exaggerate), the heaviest sentences came for espionage and conspiracy. In the past, some have gotten heavier sentences for equal charges. And whether they were custodians or door men or office workers at the Naval base really doesn't matter. They put themselves in a position to be able to obtain and send sensitive information back to Cuba. I highly doubt that the US government just randomly picked these guys to be their scapegoats.

All this is really far off the point of the thread though. Like I said, if you came to a differing conclusion from the events than I did, that's fine. I've just never seen or read anything that really sounded concrete enough to change my basic opinion of what happened.

As far as the other American spies for Israel...the reason they have nothing to do with Yousef is because Yousef is/was not an American spying against his country. He was a converted son of a Hamas leader who decided that stopping suicide bombers was more important than following in his fathers footsteps. He is nothing like the American spies who got off VERY lightly...especially when you consider that they don't have the worry of a terrorist group cutting off their head for converting their faith.

And it wouldn't have made much difference to me if Pollard had been working for Iran or Cuba. I already think he got off way too lightly. I would have hoped for the same kind of sentence to be handed down that he had originally gotten (and hopefully without repeal).

Vincent
02-26-2010, 12:23 PM
As far as the other American spies for Israel...the reason they have nothing to do with Yousef is because Yousef is/was not an American spying against his country. He was a converted son of a Hamas leader who decided that stopping suicide bombers was more important than following in his fathers footsteps. He is nothing like the American spies who got off VERY lightly...especially when you consider that they don't have the worry of a terrorist group cutting off their head for converting their faith.

When I posted this I thought "Hmmm. Nice heart warming story. Son of terrorist leader apparently has a 'Damascus Road experience', examines his circumstances, and seeks to help the Israelis prevent deaths from terrorist attacks, at considerable personal risk.".

Several of you were able to break the code and decipher this hidden message. One even noted it'd make a heckuva movie. I congratulate you!! To those that didn't find the message, as usual, thanks for playing. :wave:

Eric Bana as Yousef? Write it down.

ricardisimo
02-26-2010, 05:48 PM
When I posted this I thought "Hmmm. Nice heart warming story. Son of terrorist leader apparently has a 'Damascus Road experience', examines his circumstances, and seeks to help the Israelis prevent deaths from terrorist attacks, at considerable personal risk.".

Several of you were able to break the code and decipher this hidden message. One even noted it'd make a heckuva movie. I congratulate you!! To those that didn't find the message, as usual, thanks for playing. :wave:

Eric Bana as Yousef? Write it down.

I couldn't agree more. Most everyone thought the right thoughts without needing to be prompted. Kudos to them. It's something I clearly need to work on.

SteelCityMom: I apologize very humbly and sincerely if I offended you with the "Patriot" comment. It was meant to be in jest. I try not to use smileys and other emoticons because I think they are cheating. Perhaps I should reassess. I promise never to suggest again that you are in any way a Patriots fan. :wink02:

Yousef is/was not an American spying against his country.
He's not an American, but otherwise it applies, no?

As for the Cuban 5, the murder rap is bogus, and the real point of comparison is their admitted acts of espionage charges, versus Pollard et al. It bears mentioning that treason is the only crime singled out in the US Constitution, and that it is a capital crime. Pollard should be hanging, by US law, and the Cuban 5 should have gotten a fair trial in Maine or Texas or even North Florida, but they didn't. I really didn't mean to get us sidetracked with this case. It was put out as a curious comparison/contrast side note, that's all.

SteelEmpire: I really don't know what to tell you, other than you are providing us with a nice example of what I feel is a bit of a problem in these boards. Someone posts an article, and says "Isn't this grand?" Someone else replies "No, I don't think it is." Then several dozen posts follow which are basically accusations of thread theft. It's a curious phenomenon, and I can't see any way to translate it as anything but "If you don't agree with me and mine, you're hijacking the thread."

You, SteelEmpire, are the proof of this. There is no mention in the article, nor in any of Vincent's, SteelCityMom's nor my posts of the superiority or inferiority of Jews. Nowhere does anyone suggest anything like this. And yet it is I who have "hijacked" this thread, and not you, by simply asking "Why is he such a fine man?" This is not the first thread where I have experienced this. I want to think that maybe I'm making really good points, and I should be flattered by evasive tactics like this. Maybe I'm just full of myself.

Anyhow, Vinny, I respectfully disagree that what he has done promotes peace in any way, shape or form. We have a war going on in Israel/Palestine, and Fox News is trying to tell us that providing information to one side (and the side with the bloodier hands, ironically enough) constitutes working for peace. I'm not buying it. I have no idea what his real motivations were, but promoting peace was not it. I suspect that he simply had one dysfunctional religion pushed out of his brain by a second, and both are violently mutually exclusive.

There are ways to work for peace in the Middle East, as countless Israelis and Palestinians are doing today. Informing for the IDF is not one of those ways.

Vincent
02-26-2010, 07:28 PM
Anyhow, Vinny, I respectfully disagree....

We can agree on that. You present your views well.

You and I and all the dear people on this board are not going to solve the knuckleheadfest that is the Middle East.

ricardisimo
02-26-2010, 08:19 PM
True, that.

SteelCityMom
02-26-2010, 09:16 PM
SteelCityMom: I apologize very humbly and sincerely if I offended you with the "Patriot" comment. It was meant to be in jest. I try not to use smileys and other emoticons because I think they are cheating. Perhaps I should reassess. I promise never to suggest again that you are in any way a Patriots fan. :wink02:

Lol, no worries at all and no offense taken.


He's not an American, but otherwise it applies, no?

As for the Cuban 5, the murder rap is bogus, and the real point of comparison is their admitted acts of espionage charges, versus Pollard et al. It bears mentioning that treason is the only crime singled out in the US Constitution, and that it is a capital crime. Pollard should be hanging, by US law, and the Cuban 5 should have gotten a fair trial in Maine or Texas or even North Florida, but they didn't. I really didn't mean to get us sidetracked with this case. It was put out as a curious comparison/contrast side note, that's all.

Yes, I can agree with you on that...if anything (and as I mentioned before) it shouldn't have gone beyond conspiracy to commit murder, and I can see how even that is a stretch. I can agree that the venue should have been changed, but honestly I don't think the outcome would have been any different. I do get where you're coming from with the comparison though, I just kind of see it as apples to oranges when comparing the American spies that were mentioned and the Cuban 5,


There are ways to work for peace in the Middle East, as countless Israelis and Palestinians are doing today. Informing for the IDF is not one of those ways.

Well, in my opinion (though it is a somewhat limited one when discussing Israeli/Palestinian affairs), even though his methods may not be agreeable to some, he did put his own life on the line to save lives. Like Vincent said, there's no way that any of us on this board are going to fix the problems over there...but all the "peaceful" attempts by both Israelis and Palestinians to stop the fighting hasn't seemed to do any good either over the decades. Of course a nice peaceful solution would be fabulous, I'm just not sure it's really feasible...especially when religion is very much in the thick of it all.

urgle burgle
03-02-2010, 03:07 AM
interesting conversation, and, like i figured, went off subject.

first off....

query:
directed directly at steel mom. how do you feel about sid pulling the game/gold winning shot in the Olympics?
im torn. i wanted for the US to pull it out, but rooted for sid (among others, brooks orpik, ryan malone, for obvious reasons) to do well. as my friend put it so well in a text "screw sid." course he's a rangers fan, but i replied for that moment....that game.....i agreed. do i have to turn in my fan card? i await your reply with baited (and cheetoed) breath.

moving on.....

ric....as always...you changed the conversation and interjected viewpoints that spun wildly off of the original topic. ehhh....nothing wrong with that, as they are your thoughts/conversation and either add too or take away from the original. i do like your theory on the use of smileys.....it kinda does feel like cheating. which is partially the fun of sarcasm. however, i have learned, as a totally sarcastic being, that in this type of forum, the use loses its effectiveness, and more importantly, the point/purpose of the comment. so i have now bowed down and try to make it understood.
obviously you have a different view of Israel than most on this board or thread. i have gotten to a point where i need to know the thought processes and foundation of those i am conversing with. without this knowledge then you get angry, speculate, go around in circles, etc. Now, before i pose the questions i feel necessary to truly carry on this conversation, note that i did enjoy our reparte in the past, and that, when knowing where you are coming from, would like to continue forward. that being said, i pose these questions for the reason i posted above: (tried as best i could to make them yes/no questions)

do you consider Israel a rogue nation?
do you consider Israel a terrorist nation?
do you think that Israel is the sole reason for the "Palestinian" issue?
do you think that Iran is a rogue/or terrorist nation?
do you think that they threaten peace in the Middle East and the US?
do you think that Iran has a right to nuclear weapons?
do you think that if Iran aquired such weapons, they would pre-emptively strike Isareal?
do you think that suicide bombings are acceptable or condoneable?
do you think the use of katusha rockets by Palestinians is acceptable or condoneable?
and lastly, this being the one that i am most interested in, how would you solve the Palestinian/Israel issue?
the main reason for the last question is that i dont like what is/has been going on there, but i dont know of a practical solution, and i am curious as to what you would propose.

and lastly lastly.....do you think unicorns are real?

i await your answers. i think this would be the best way to have a "real" conversation.

thanks

urgle burgle

SteelCityMom
03-02-2010, 10:36 AM
interesting conversation, and, like i figured, went off subject.

first off....

query:
directed directly at steel mom. how do you feel about sid pulling the game/gold winning shot in the Olympics?
im torn. i wanted for the US to pull it out, but rooted for sid (among others, brooks orpik, ryan malone, for obvious reasons) to do well. as my friend put it so well in a text "screw sid." course he's a rangers fan, but i replied for that moment....that game.....i agreed. do i have to turn in my fan card? i await your reply with baited (and cheetoed) breath.


LOL...it is WAY off topic, but since it is about hockey I feel I must oblige and answer your query.

I had said before the game that if Canada won I wanted it to be because of Sid...and well, that's what I got. It was a little bit bittersweet, but I'm glad he got the gold (and Captain Caveman got NOTHING). You and your fan card are good in my book!

ricardisimo
03-02-2010, 04:07 PM
do you consider Israel a rogue nation?
Yes.
do you consider Israel a terrorist nation?
Yes.
do you think that Israel is the sole reason for the "Palestinian" issue?
No.
do you think that Iran is a rogue/or terrorist nation?
No.
do you think that they threaten peace in the Middle East and the US?
No.
do you think that Iran has a right to nuclear weapons?
No.
do you think that if Iran aquired such weapons, they would pre-emptively strike Isareal?
No.
do you think that suicide bombings are acceptable or condoneable?
No.
do you think the use of katusha rockets by Palestinians is acceptable or condoneable?
No.
and lastly, this being the one that i am most interested in, how would you solve the Palestinian/Israel issue?
You mean, if I were an omnipotent ruler or at least a really influential person in the world? I would be very, very conservative. I would simply demand that all parties abide by international law as well as by their existing agreements. That means no more assassinations, no more suicide bombings, no more home demolitions, no more settlements or forced relocations, no more border closings (especially for things like medicines and food), no more draconian water rationing, etc., etc.

Mind you, I'm not a big fan of the Two-State solution, any more so in Israel than in, say, South Africa; the Bantustans were not a real solution to the problem there, nor do I think a non-contiguous Palestine will be here. However, Israel won't have it any other way (It's the only way for them to actually be a majority of the populace, and therefore be able to legitimately call themselves a democracy), and the Palestinians have agreed to it, as has the international community. So, we have to make that work. Palestine should be contiguous, as much as possible, and its borders and internal security should be maintained by Palestinians.

There are lots of other obvious things that can and should be done, and everyone here only has to imagine how we would feel if we were occupied by a foreign power. How quickly would we want them out? What would we do to get them out? So on.

the main reason for the last question is that i dont like what is/has been going on there, but i dont know of a practical solution, and i am curious as to what you would propose.

I'm no expert, nor do I claim to be. However, I'm a human being and I can empathize and, like I said, I can imagine how I would feel if the Red Army were occupying our streets, closing our borders, checking peoples' papers every five minutes, targeting entire buildings so as to get at one resistance leader... I'm sure we'd be launching rockets at them, and I'm sure those rockets would be the excuse for a new round of oppression every single time.

and lastly lastly.....do you think unicorns are real?
Duh. Like I really need to answer that question?

Vincent
03-02-2010, 07:33 PM
"Rogue state is a term applied to states considered threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state

Not surprisingly, you consider Israel a rogue state, yet view Iran as not. If you hold Israel responsible for terrorism against Arabs, then it is consistent to hold Iran responsible for the same. How many Iraqis and Americans have died by the hand of Iranian insurgents in Iraq? I don't recall any Israeli insurgencies. They focus on counter-insurgency.

Aside from merely existing, how does Israel threaten world peace? Israel's gubmint is anything but authoritarian. The only "human rights" restricted in Israel are of those given to bad behavior. Israel does not sponsor terrorism, it weathers terrorism. Israel does not seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction, it defends its citizens from them.

You mean, if I were an omnipotent ruler or at least a really influential person in the world? I would be very, very conservative. I would simply demand that all parties abide by international law as well as by their existing agreements.

That's laudable Ric. That's what the adults over there have been trying to do. Bad behavior keeps getting in the way. Aside from that bad behavior, and the resultant reactions, what stands in the way of lasting peace in that region?

Rogue states.

ricardisimo
03-03-2010, 05:24 PM
"Rogue state is a term applied to states considered threatening to the world's peace. This means meeting certain criteria, such as being ruled by authoritarian regimes that severely restrict human rights, sponsor terrorism, and seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rogue_state

I'll refer you to a recent poll (http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-121208076.html) that was conducted regarding this very question. There are better links to this poll, and other similar ones I'm sure. For the record, I do not think that Israel is the greatest threat to world peace. I'm sure you can figure out towards whom I point my finger in that regard. Israel is quite a bit further down the list, commensurate with its power.

As to whether or not Israel is authoritarian or not, I'm not sure why that is pertinent. There are dozens of abominably brutal regimes in Africa and Asia, and not one of them, nor all put together can be credibly accused of being global threats. Still, I suppose that you would get two different answers to the question of Israel's brutality depending on whether you were asking an Israeli or a Palestinian. If we follow SteelEmpire's lead, and just exclude substantial portions of the population (like, say, the majority) whenever it suited our statistical needs, then I'm sure Israel is a blissful nirvana.

Not surprisingly, you consider Israel a rogue state, yet view Iran as not. If you hold Israel responsible for terrorism against Arabs, then it is consistent to hold Iran responsible for the same. How many Iraqis and Americans have died by the hand of Iranian insurgents in Iraq? I don't recall any Israeli insurgencies. They focus on counter-insurgency.

Iranian involvement in Iraq is minimal as to approach non-existent. Mostly it existed in Bush-era propaganda. If Iran really was significantly involved in Iraq in any way, you better believe Bush or Obama would be launching missiles at them. I refer you to a report (http://www.cfr.org/publication/12521/#p2) from the Council on Foreign Relations, hardly a group of commie peaceniks. They are falling all over themselves not to completely discredit Bush Administration intelligence, but even so, the whole paper drips with doubts. This is a good sample:

U.S. officials insist that Iranian involvement in Iraq, particularly the arming and training of Shiite militants, increased in early 2008 (ChiTrib). But many experts, including Joost Hiltermann, Middle East deputy program director of the International Crisis Group, say Iranian activity in Iraq is not a new phenomenon. Tehran, for example, has had intelligence operatives in northern Iraq for the past two decades, including base offices in Irbil and Sulaymaniya, and enjoys close ties with Kurdish leaders. Iran’s most recent alleged transgressions—support for Iraq’s Shiite militias—stretches back to at least 2004, experts say. Lawrence J. Korb of the Center for American Progress believes the Bush administration is pushing a strategy to get more aggressive on Tehran. “This is not about Iraq,” he says. “It’s about Iran.”

Aside from merely existing, how does Israel threaten world peace? Israel's gubmint is anything but authoritarian. The only "human rights" restricted in Israel are of those given to bad behavior. Israel does not sponsor terrorism, it weathers terrorism. Israel does not seek to proliferate weapons of mass destruction, it defends its citizens from them.
Once again, I'll refer you both to the polls which have been published, as well as to the major difference of opinion on Israel's benign nature depending on which end of Israel's stick one happens to be at.


That's laudable Ric. That's what the adults over there have been trying to do. Bad behavior keeps getting in the way. Aside from that bad behavior, and the resultant reactions, what stands in the way of lasting peace in that region?

Rogue states.
Look at the definition given in the Wikipedia quote you gave once again, and first ask what is missing from the equation and why. Then ask why the US itself is not at the top of the US' list of rogue states. Adherence to international law, and activity counter to the international will is missing from the United States' functional definition of "rogue state". Why do you suppose that is?

And as for supporting terrorism and proliferating WMD, how do you think we built our empire? With kind words? The Obama administration just announced a new arms deal with Pakistan. How is that not proliferation? Who is the biggest arms dealer in the world, more than everyone else combined?

In other words, who are we to be pointing fingers at anyone? I suggest that we should review our own status, as well as that of our proxies, like Israel.

urgle burgle
03-03-2010, 06:14 PM
steel mom, thanks for the "resucitation", of my fan card. i did love yesterday when the home fans cheered for both sid, and the enemy at that moment....ryan miller. classy.

ric, thank you again for addressing my directed question, because it does give a point of reference in these type of discussions. some of the answeres i agree with, some i dont. well, actually, most i dont. however, between you and i our conversations have been good and respectable, and i would like to keep them that way. i think that we could pick apart and argue/debate each question (accept the unicorn one, in which i think we are in both complete agreement:thumbsup:, without stating as much). but, in my the case of good sense and decorum i thin i will now recuse myself from this specific conversation, and live to fight another day.

vincent,

keep up the good fight. you bring good information and tactical strength to the battle.

good day to you all,

viva la Newark!!