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Vincent
03-20-2010, 10:36 AM
A few days ago I spilled a drink (sparkling water) on one of my bookshelves, so I had to remove some books and allow them to dry. Putting them back this morning, I was noting just how many books I had of the tales of woe of soviet dissidents, and other chronicles of the soviet era. I reflected on how we seem to be moving hellbent toward that which abused and murdered so many. In the apparent intoxication of our own liberty, we have embraced the same devil that has enslaved billions and murdered hundreds of millions that merely we at odds.

Then I turn on my PC and read this.

Whether it be the nazis or the sovs that drove the nazts out of Austria, its all the same - socialism - the enslavement of men and women, the rape and murder of innocents.

We must be in for a world of @#$%.

"After America , There is No Place to Go" except Eternity

another perspective.........This is Kitty Werthann from Pierre, SD and she was very active in the removal of Tom Daschle.

America Truly is the Greatest Country in the World. Don't Let Freedom Slip Away
By: Kitty Werthmann

What I am about to tell you is something you've probably never heard or will ever read in history books.

I believe that I am an eyewitness to history. I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history. We elected him by a landslide - 98% of the vote.. I've never read that in any American publications. Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.

In 1938, Austria was in deep Depression. Nearly one-third of our workforce was unemployed. We had 25% inflation and 25% bank loan interest rates.

Farmers and business people were declaring bankruptcy daily. Young people were going from house to house begging for food. Not that they didn't want to work; there simply weren't any jobs. My mother was a Christian woman and believed in helping people in need. Every day we cooked a big kettle of soup and baked bread to feed those poor, hungry people - about 30 daily.

The Communist Party and the National Socialist Party were fighting each other. Blocks and blocks of cities like Vienna , Linz , and Graz were destroyed. The people became desperate and petitioned the government to let them decide what kind of government they wanted.

We looked to our neighbor on the north, Germany , where Hitler had been in power since 1933. We had been told that they didn't have unemployment or crime, and they had a high standard of living. Nothing was ever said about persecution of any group -- Jewish or otherwise. We were led to believe that everyone was happy. We wanted the same way of life in Austria . We were promised that a vote for Hitler would mean the end of unemployment and help for the family. Hitler also said that businesses would be assisted, and farmers would get their farms back. Ninety-eight percent of the population voted to annex Austria to Germany and have Hitler for our ruler.

We were overjoyed, and for three days we danced in the streets and had candlelight parades. The new government opened up big field kitchens and everyone was fed.

After the election, German officials were appointed, and like a miracle, we suddenly had law and order. Three or four weeks later, everyone was employed. The government made sure that a lot of work was created through the Public Work Service.

Hitler decided we should have equal rights for women. Before this, it was a custom that married Austrian women did not work outside the home. An able-bodied husband would be looked down on if he couldn't support his family. Many women in the teaching profession were elated that they could retain the jobs they previously had been required to give up for marriage.

Hitler Targets Education - Eliminates Religious Instruction for Children:

Our education was nationalized. I attended a very good public school. The population was predominantly Catholic, so we had religion in our schools. The day we elected Hitler (March 13, 1938), I walked into my schoolroom to find the crucifix replaced by Hitler's picture hanging next to a Nazi flag. Our teacher, a very devout woman, stood up and told the class we wouldn't pray or have religion anymore. Instead, we sang "Deutschland, Deutschland, Uber Alles," and had physical education.

Sunday became National Youth Day with compulsory attendance. Parents were not pleased about the sudden change in curriculum. They were told that if they did not send us, they would receive a stiff letter of warning the first time. The second time they would be fined the equivalent of $300, and the third time they would be subject to jail.

The first two hours consisted of political indoctrination. The rest of the day we had sports. As time went along, we loved it. Oh, we had so much fun and got our sports equipment free. We would go home and gleefully tell our parents about the wonderful time we had.

My mother was very unhappy. When the next term started, she took me out of public school and put me in a convent. I told her she couldn't do that and she told me that someday when I grew up, I would be grateful. There was a very good curriculum, but hardly any fun - no sports, and no political indoctrination. I hated it at first but felt I could tolerate it. Every once in a while, on holidays, I went home. I would go back to my old friends and ask what was going on and what they were doing. Their loose lifestyle was very alarming to me. They lived without religion. By that time unwed mothers were glorified for having a baby for Hitler. It seemed strange to me that our society changed so suddenly. As time went along, I realized what a great deed my mother did so that I wasn't exposed to that kind of humanistic philosophy.

Equal Rights Hits Home:

In 1939, the war started and a food bank was established. All food was rationed and could only be purchased using food stamps. At the same time, a full-employment law was passed which meant if you didn't work, you didn't get a ration card, and if you didn't have a card, you starved to death. Women who stayed home to raise their families didn't have any marketable skills and often had to take jobs more suited for men.

Soon after this, the draft was implemented. It was compulsory for young people, male and female, to give one year to the labor corps. During the day, the girls worked on the farms, and at night they returned to their barracks for military training just like the boys.. They were trained to be anti-aircraft gunners and participated in the signal corps. After the labor corps, they were not discharged but were used in the front lines. When I go back to Austria to visit my family and friends, most of these women are emotional cripples because they just were not equipped to handle the horrors of combat. Three months before I turned 18, I was severely injured in an air raid attack. I nearly had a leg amputated, so I was spared having to go into the labor corps and into military service.

Hitler Restructured the Family Through Daycare:

When the mothers had to go out into the work force, the government immediately established child care centers. You could take your children ages 4 weeks to school age and leave them there around-the-clock, 7 days a week, under the total care of the government. The state raised a whole generation of children.. There were no motherly women to take care of the children, just people highly trained in child psychology. By this time, no one talked about equal rights. We knew we had been had.
Health Care and Small Business Suffer Under Government Controls:

Before Hitler, we had very good medical care. Many American doctors trained at the University of Vienna . After Hitler, health care was socialized, free for everyone. Doctors were salaried by the government.. The problem was, since it was free, the people were going to the doctors for everything. When the good doctor arrived at his office at 8 a.m., 40 people were already waiting and, at the same time, the hospitals were full. If you needed elective surgery, you had to wait a year or two for your turn. There was no money for research as it was poured into socialized medicine. Research at the medical schools literally stopped, so the best doctors left Austria and emigrated to other countries.

As for healthcare, our tax rates went up to 80% of our income. Newlyweds immediately received a $1,000 loan from the government to establish a household. We had big programs for families. All day care and education were free. High schools were taken over by the government and college tuition was subsidized. Everyone was entitled to free handouts, such as food stamps, clothing, and housing.

We had another agency designed to monitor business. My brother-in-law owned a restaurant that had square tables. Government officials told him he had to replace them with round tables because people might bump themselves on the corners. Then they said he had to have additional bathroom facilities. It was just a small dairy business with a snack bar. He couldn't meet all the demands. Soon, he went out of business. If the government owned the large businesses and not many small ones existed, it could be in control.

We had consumer protection. We were told how to shop and what to buy. Free enterprise was essentially abolished. We had a planning agency specially designed for farmers. The agents would go to the farms, count the live-stock, then tell the farmers what to produce, and how to produce it.

"Mercy Killing" Redefined:

I became a student teacher in a small village in the Alps . The villagers were surrounded by mountain passes which, in the winter, were closed off with snow, causing people to be isolated. So people intermarried and offspring were sometimes retarded. When I arrived, I was told there were 15 mentally retarded adults, but they were all useful and did good manual work. I knew one, named Vincent, very well. He was a janitor of the school. One day I looked out the window and saw Vincent and others getting into a van. I asked my superior where they were going. She said to an institution where the State Health Department would teach them a trade, and to read and write. The families were required to sign papers with a little clause that they could not visit for 6 months. They were told visits would interfere with the program and might cause homesickness.

As time passed, letters started to dribble back saying these people died a natural, merciful death. The villagers were not fooled. We suspected what was happening. Those people left in excellent physical health and all died within 6 months. We called this euthanasia.

The Final Steps - Gun Laws:

Next came gun registration.. People were getting injured by guns. Hitler said that the real way to catch criminals (we still had a few) was by matching serial numbers on guns. Most citizens were law abiding and dutifully marched to the police station to register their firearms. Not long after-wards, the police said that it was best for everyone to turn in their guns. The authorities already knew who had them, so it was futile not to comply voluntarily.

No more freedom of speech. Anyone who said something against the government was taken away. We knew many people who were arrested, not only Jews, but also priests and ministers who spoke up.

Totalitarianism didn't come quickly, it took 5 years from 1938 until 1943, to realize full dictatorship in Austria .. Had it happened overnight, my countrymen would have fought to the last breath. Instead, we had creeping gradualism. Now, our only weapons were broom handles. The whole idea sounds almost unbelievable that the state, little by little eroded our freedom.

After World War II, Russian troops occupied Austria . Women were raped, preteen to elderly. The press never wrote about this either. When the Soviets left in 1955, they took everything that they could, dismantling whole factories in the process. They sawed down whole orchards of fruit, and what they couldn't destroy, they burned. We called it The Burned Earth. Most of the population barricaded themselves in their houses. Women hid in their cellars for 6 weeks as the troops mobilized. Those who couldn't, paid the price. There is a monument in Vienna today, dedicated to those women who were massacred by the Russians. This is an eye witness account.
"It's true..those of us who sailed past the Statue of Liberty came to a country of unbelievable freedom and opportunity.

America Truly is the Greatest Country in the World. Don't Let Freedom Slip Away
"After America , There is No Place to Go"
__________________________________

"We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress & the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." - Abraham Lincoln

Those who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it

MACH1
03-20-2010, 01:23 PM
And so it begins. True American freedom will be a thing of fairytales.

theplatypus
03-20-2010, 04:19 PM
I believe that I am an eyewitness to history. I cannot tell you that Hitler took Austria by tanks and guns; it would distort history. We elected him by a landslide - 98% of the vote.. I've never read that in any American publications. Everyone thinks that Hitler just rolled in with his tanks and took Austria by force.


They elected him by by a landslide with the ever watchful eye of German soldiers standing by. I wonder if that had anything to do with the outcome?

7SteelGal43
03-20-2010, 06:11 PM
Very good read, Vincent, and how timely on this of all weekends. I pity those that don't see that this is exactly what is happening in America. How blind are those that refuse to see we are headed (and have been for some time) down this same path. Socialism has crept into every aspect of our lives. It's taken more than 40 years instead of 5, but the end result is (or will be) the same. It's sad because we had seen this happen in other countries. We knew exactly, step by step, how socialism/communism takes over a nation. It doesn't roll in with guns and tanks and troops. It changes the school system. It promises jobs and healthcare. It removes religion from all public life. It strips citizens of the right to protect themselves by disarming them. Gee, does ANY of this sound familiar ?! We'd seen the blueprint used so many times in other countries. We should have seen it so long ago. Socialists in this country knew good and well it would take at least 40 years. But here we are, on the eve of America becoming a socialist cesspool with no individual liberties or rights. I only pray it's not to late.


GOD BLESS AMERICA.

Leftoverhard
03-20-2010, 06:48 PM
OMG - get a grip. Seriously, this is some serious whack job nonsense. So sick of it.

MACH1
03-20-2010, 06:52 PM
OMG - get a grip. Seriously, this is some serious whack job nonsense. So sick of it.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_yHHyDmKhTIg/SMre8m0-k4I/AAAAAAAAFf0/AKuwz7Ama0M/s400/ObamaHeadUpAss.jpg

Leftoverhard
03-20-2010, 06:54 PM
Gee, does ANY of this sound familiar ?!

Yeah, it was called THE RED SCARE. :hatsoff:

Leftoverhard
03-20-2010, 07:00 PM
MACH1 -

Really - well spoken, I would expect nothing less. :coffee:

SteelCityMom
03-20-2010, 07:01 PM
We knew exactly, step by step, how socialism/communism takes over a nation. It doesn't roll in with guns and tanks and troops. It changes the school system. It promises jobs and healthcare. It removes religion from all public life. It strips citizens of the right to protect themselves by disarming them. Gee, does ANY of this sound familiar ?!

Not really. Not to me anyway.

-The school systems have been changing in this country long before the "terror" of socialism crept in.
-Every president promises jobs and healthcare (or some sort of healthcare reform...it's almost a prerequisite to promise it if you're running for pres).
-Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't church services that are available nearly every day of the week, mass on television and even religious networks make religion part of public life? I'm just not seeing how it's being removed here.
-I dislike some STATES gun laws, but federal gun laws are more lenient than they were 10 years ago. Who are they trying to disarm by making nearly all semi-automatic weapons legal?

Leftoverhard
03-20-2010, 07:15 PM
We'd seen the blueprint used so many times in other countries. We should have seen it so long ago. Socialists in this country knew good and well it would take at least 40 years. But here we are, on the eve of America becoming a socialist cesspool with no individual liberties or rights. I only pray it's not to late.

SteelGal - please, no individual liberties or rights? Humor me and back that up here. Sure, you can say it and it sounds so dreadful but............drumroll.........It's not true. That's the catch I guess, the rub, the reality. This is pure "sky is falling" stuff.

Vincent
03-20-2010, 08:33 PM
OMG - get a grip. Seriously, this is some serious whack job nonsense. So sick of it.

So Lefty, how do you account for the hundreds of millions of dead folks buried (well, not all of them) in the wakes of socialist regimes?

Are you suggesting that Ms Werthmann's account of the events that unfolded in her country is "serious whack job nonsense"? That's extremely disrespectful coming from someone as condescending as yourself.

And when you say "OMG", are you calling on God for something?

As "enlightened" as you present yourself to be, please allay the concerns of those less "informed". Help us Lefty to see that all is well in our republic.

tony hipchest
03-20-2010, 08:45 PM
Very good read, Vincent, and how timely on this of all weekends. I pity those that don't see that this is exactly what is happening in America. How blind are those that refuse to see we are headed (and have been for some time) down this same path. Socialism has crept into every aspect of our lives. It's taken more than 40 years instead of 5, but the end result is (or will be) the same. It's sad because we had seen this happen in other countries. We knew exactly, step by step, how socialism/communism takes over a nation. It doesn't roll in with guns and tanks and troops. It changes the school system. It promises jobs and healthcare. It removes religion from all public life. It strips citizens of the right to protect themselves by disarming them. Gee, does ANY of this sound familiar ?! We'd seen the blueprint used so many times in other countries. We should have seen it so long ago. Socialists in this country knew good and well it would take at least 40 years. But here we are, on the eve of America becoming a socialist cesspool with no individual liberties or rights. I only pray it's not to late.

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/chuckmanson.jpg


GOD BLESS AMERICA.

:screwy: comparing health care reform to WWII and the holocaust, or stalin slaughtering 20+ million of his own citizens is a perfect example of some of the nut jobs we have in the world today.

but dont worry, im sure there is some commune/militia up in the hills wacked out on acid or meth, who feels the same way you do, and would welcome you with open arms once this country fails.

pardon me for asking, but you believed david koresh was the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, didnt you?

Vincent
03-20-2010, 09:13 PM
:screwy: comparing health care reform to WWII and the holocaust, or stalin slaughtering 20+ million of his own citizens is a perfect example of some of the nut jobs we have in the world today.

but dont worry, im sure there is some commune/militia up in the hills wacked out on acid or meth, who feels the same way you do, and would welcome you with open arms once this country fails.

pardon me for asking, but you believed david koresh was the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ, didnt you?

I don't see that SteelGal was comparing "hellth care" with "WWII and the holocaust, or stalin slaughtering 20+ million of his own citizens". She said we are headed down the same path as those socialist regimes. She lamented that we seem blind to those painful and costly lessons.

Tony, you're a smart guy. Surely you recognize the incrementalism that the nazis used to take control of Germany. The model is identical to the socialist agenda in the States, except that we aren't in the desperate straights that Germany was in during the depression - yet.

I don't think recognizing that history repeats is grounds for marginalizing anyone as crazy, extreme, or anything other than alert to threats against our way of life.

In all seriousness, I doubt anyone other than the folks that lived with him thought David Koresh was the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. As much as I disagree with them, it was their right to do so. In all Koresh did and said, was it necessary for him, his followers, and their children to be murdered?

I'll give socialists this much; they're consistent.

MasterOfPuppets
03-20-2010, 10:11 PM
I don't see that SteelGal was comparing "hellth care" with "WWII and the holocaust, or stalin slaughtering 20+ million of his own citizens". She said we are headed down the same path as those socialist regimes. She lamented that we seem blind to those painful and costly lessons.

Tony, you're a smart guy. Surely you recognize the incrementalism that the nazis used to take control of Germany. The model is identical to the socialist agenda in the States, except that we aren't in the desperate straights that Germany was in during the depression - yet.

I don't think recognizing that history repeats is grounds for marginalizing anyone as crazy, extreme, or anything other than alert to threats against our way of life.

In all seriousness, I doubt anyone other than the folks that lived with him thought David Koresh was the 2nd coming of Jesus Christ. As much as I disagree with them, it was their right to do so. In all Koresh did and said, was it necessary for him, his followers, and their children to be murdered?

I'll give socialists this much; they're consistent.

so your saying virtually EVERY country in the world is heading towards a communist like state ?
The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not have a universal health care system.[21] Federal law was changed in 1986 with the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act requiring certain hospitals to provide stabilizing treatment for patients with emergency medical conditions including childbirth without first demanding evidence of ability to pay. According to the Institute of Medicine of the National Academies of Science, this unfunded “safety net” mandate has contributed to increasing strain on the health system. Emergency treatment is not free or subsidized and some patients cannot or will not pay their bills. Furthermore, this system encourages use of the emergency facilities for primary care and not just for emergency purposes.[22]

In lieu of a national program, some states and municipalities have made attempts to approach universality of insurance in their respective jurisdictions. The state of Massachusetts implemented a near-universal health care system by mandating that residents purchase health insurance by July 1, 2007.[23] The City of San Francisco is also undertaking a universal health care system for uninsured residents.[24][25] Hawaii has, since 1974, required employers to provide employees working more than 20 hours per week with a comprehensive health insurance plan.[26] California, Maine and Vermont are also considering or seeking to implement universal or near-universal systems.[27] In July, 2009, Connecticut passed into law a plan called SustiNet, with the goal of achieving near-universal healthcare coverage by 2014.[28]

Whether a federal system of universal health care should be implemented in the US remains a hotly debated political topic, with Americans divided in their views. The Congressional Budget Office and related government agencies scored the cost of a universal health care system several times since 1991, and have uniformly predicted cost savings,[29] probably because of the 40% cost savings associated with universal preventative care.[30]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_health_care

Leftoverhard
03-20-2010, 10:17 PM
So Lefty, how do you account for the hundreds of millions of dead folks buried (well, not all of them) in the wakes of socialist regimes?

Are you suggesting that Ms Werthmann's account of the events that unfolded in her country is "serious whack job nonsense"? That's extremely disrespectful coming from someone as condescending as yourself.

And when you say "OMG", are you calling on God for something?

As "enlightened" as you present yourself to be, please allay the concerns of those less "informed". Help us Lefty to see that all is well in our republic.


Nice try. You sound like a politician here Vincent.

I think it's pretty shameless to try and compare Nazi Germany with our country 2010. Bad photoshop jobs of our president with a Hitler mustache are pretty lame too. Just because you usually get "attaboy" responses on your ultra-right wing message boards doesn't mean your viewpoints are mainstream. They aren't. At all. :coffee:

Speaking of being condescending...When you say things like "Tony, you're a smart guy..." that's the epitome of condescending.

tony hipchest
03-20-2010, 10:22 PM
I don't see that SteelGal was comparing "hellth care" with "WWII and the holocaust, or stalin slaughtering 20+ million of his own citizens". .

i do... :hunch:

...is exactly what is happening in America.

...we are headed (and have been for some time) down this same path

...end result is (or will be) the same.

...America becoming a socialist cesspool with no individual liberties or rights

:yawn:

youre right vincent... i am a pretty smart guy, and can smell this fear mongering, rhetoric and propoganda a mile away.

so according to her 40 year plan, atleast we have canada, france, and england, to be a warning beacon when they start slaughtering millions of their own people and denying them personal freedoms and liberties.

that is when the republicans will step in and save us all.

could it be that the paranoia just masks the doubt of ones own party? will not the spirit of reagan and 3 other horsemen, with trumpets blaring, part the clouds and save the day?

MasterOfPuppets
03-20-2010, 10:30 PM
will not the spirit of reagan and 3 other horsemen, with trumpets blaring, part the clouds and save the day?:toofunny:

i got a feeling the country will perk right up as soon as they put reagans mug on money. :chuckle:

MACH1
03-20-2010, 11:47 PM
photoshop jobs of our president with a Hitler mustache

Ask and you shall receive.

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/YYkKqRCEuLU/0.jpg

The Patriot
03-21-2010, 12:01 AM
SteelGal - please, no individual liberties or rights? Humor me and back that up here. Sure, you can say it and it sounds so dreadful but............drumroll.........It's not true. That's the catch I guess, the rub, the reality. This is pure "sky is falling" stuff.

It's no use. They've abandoned all logic and reason and exchanged it for these fun little narratives about Nazis and Communists. Canada has had universal healthcare for 50 years and they haven't tried to get rid of it. It's because they're void of any freedoms or rights (of course).

Have you ever met a Canadian? -They're the mere shells of former human beings. :rolleyes:

Vincent
03-21-2010, 12:04 AM
Nice try. You sound like a politician here Vincent.

I think it's pretty shameless to try and compare Nazi Germany with our country 2010. Bad photoshop jobs of our president with a Hitler mustache are pretty lame too. Just because you usually get "attaboy" responses on your ultra-right wing message boards doesn't mean your viewpoints are mainstream. They aren't. At all. :coffee:

Speaking of being condescending...When you say things like "Tony, you're a smart guy..." that's the epitome of condescending.

Politician? I detest politicians.

Shameless is belittling the account of someone that lived through the nazi take over of her country, the even more brutal soviet aftermath, and the alarm she expresses because of the parallels she sees today in our country.

Condescending is suggesting that I post for "attaboy" responses. I express the real concerns of Americans that recognize what is happening and don't want to see this country destroyed by leftism.

You stated your case previously; you don't have a problem with socialism. I do. I've lived long enough to have seen it slaughter hundreds of millions of people that merely disagreed with it. Socialism is satanic. Look no further than the death camps of Europe, the gulags of Russia, the "cultural revolution" of the "PRC", the killing fields of Cambodia, and on and on and on. Fear mongering? Politician? You have to be bone stupid to see what socialism has done to untold millions and think that somehow, it just might work "this time", especially at the hand of a stalinist like bho. We're seeing the fairhandedness of the stalinists in the house that are jamming it down our throats.

If you have any balls at all, answer my previous questions instead of deflecting. None of you leftists can answer a simple question because the depth of your "knowledge" is sloganeering.

that is when the republicans will step in and save us all.

The elephants couldn't find their asses with both hands, a map, a flashlight, and a "support group". Once this POS is passed, its over. This GOP reminds me of Stuart Smalley - "I’m good enough, I’m smart enough, and dog-gone it, people like me."

And now that "deem and @#$% the citizens" is in play, watch what they do with the next agenda item - "immigration reform".

Vincent
03-21-2010, 12:08 AM
Have you ever met a Canadian? -They're the mere shells of former human beings. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I've known a bunch. They hate Canadian "health care" and come here for the important stuff.

Read much? http://forums.steelersfever.com/showpost.php?p=775179&postcount=1

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 12:15 AM
Freedom & Liberty are the principles this country was founded upon.

Obama.

Would love to to see these things in the same sentence...or paragraph...

This is a respectful question.

Tony, MOP, Leftover. I respect your opinions and since we all believe in the principles this great country was founded upon, I am anxious to hear your thoughts.

If you choose not to answer this, I completely understand. :drink:

I've enjoyed this debate and will catch up with you all tomorrow. :thumbsup:

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 12:32 AM
Tony, MOP, Leftover. I respect your opinions and since we all believe in the principles this great country was founded upon, I am anxious to hear your thoughts.

If you choose not to answer this, I completely understand. :drink:

I've enjoyed this debate and will catch up with you all tomorrow. :thumbsup: :cya:

come back shadowman!

ive answered this countless times.

and each time you have ignored it (which i DEFINITELY understand).

you only respect freedoms and liberties as long as you are the one to define them, right?

free market enterprise says their will be abortion clinics. a woman has the freedom and liberties to visit one if she so wishes. you support taking this away. obama does not.

please tell us what freedoms and liberties obama has taken from you.

:coffee:

The Patriot
03-21-2010, 01:15 AM
Yeah, I've known a bunch. They hate Canadian "health care" and come here for the important stuff.

Read much? http://forums.steelersfever.com/showpost.php?p=775179&postcount=1
Yeah, do you?

Williams said his decision to go to the U.S. did not reflect any lack of faith in his own province's health care system.

"I have the utmost confidence in our own health care system in Newfoundland and Labrador, but we are just over half a million people," he said.
So he chose to go see a specialized doctor, people do that all the time... The healthcare bill isn't going to prevent that.

SteelCityMom
03-21-2010, 01:31 AM
Yeah, I've known a bunch. They hate Canadian "health care" and come here for the important stuff.

Read much? http://forums.steelersfever.com/showpost.php?p=775179&postcount=1

Yes, it's very true that some Canadians want changes to their health care system, but it's quite a reach to start comparing Obama wanting to instill a single-payer health care system to Nazi Germany or Russian gulags. In fact, it's downright ignorant.

I think what some are merely trying to point out is that Canada and many other countries are not socialist regimes because they have (and have had for quite some time) universal health care.

Here's a good video on the comparison of US and Canadian health care. Neither are perfect by any means, but both have pros and cons. I might not agree completely with this health care bill...but lets be realistic here, it's NOT the next coming of Hitler.

<object width="640" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/ARxjQ3IRqvg&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/ARxjQ3IRqvg&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="640" height="385"></embed></object>


I found this article interesting as well about the "demon" Canadian health care system.

http://www.ourfuture.org/blog-entry/mythbusting-canadian-health-care-part-i

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 07:36 AM
tony hipchest

you only respect freedoms and liberties as long as you are the one to define them, right?

Really?

Would you care showing some examples to support this statement you just made about me?

I would love to debate this with you.

Since you're the characterizing me with this statement, feel free to start anywhere.

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 07:37 AM
free market enterprise says their will be abortion clinics. a woman has the freedom and liberties to visit one if she so wishes. you support taking this away. obama does not.



I think you had mentioned earlier (in a circuitous way) that you support government sponsored preteen abortions without the parents being notified while at the same time being forced to pay for the abortion through their taxes..

Do you feel this somehow promotes freedom & liberty? For who?... The pregnant, underage, preteen who has arguably shown bad judgment?

Was this the example I overlooked numerous times? OR, If there were others (better examples hopefully) please let me know.

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 08:01 AM
please tell us what freedoms and liberties obama has taken from you.



Do you feel that being forced to give almost 50% of what you work for is somehow a case for freedom & liberty?

Is Obama not trying to take more?.....

lib·er·ty (lbr-t)

1. The condition of being free from restriction or control.

Someone CONTROLLING almost 50% of your earnings is not a case for freedom & liberty imho.

Wouldn't you agree?

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 08:03 AM
By the way, it is great to be discussing issues in a constructive and respectful way! :drink:

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 08:59 AM
Do you feel that being forced to give almost 50% of what you work for is somehow a case for freedom & liberty?

Where do you live that you give up almost 50% of what you work for?

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 08:59 AM
Where do you live that you pay almost 50% of what you work for?

The United States of America.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 09:04 AM
The United States of America.

Oh so you're just exaggerating, cool.

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 09:13 AM
Oh so you're just exaggerating, cool.

Why do you say that?

If I am not mistaken, many people have paid close to 45% between federal, state & local taxes and that doesn't even cover the huge and growing deficits.

Imagine what would happen if the government tried to lessen the staggering yearly increase in our federal, state & local debts which WILL be paid for by our children and grandchildren.

Imagine if they were actually paying for all of these massive, entrenched and generational huge government spending programs so as not to further add to a deficit that is already so massive and virtually inconceivable that it will arguably ruin this great country.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this, friend. :drink:

Vincent
03-21-2010, 09:58 AM
Where do you live that you give up almost 50% of what you work for?

North Carolina. State, county, city, and sales take me over 50% to the @#$%ing gubmint. Yes, I have a "problem" with that.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 10:02 AM
Why do you say that?

If I am not mistaken, many people have paid close to 45% between federal, state & local taxes and that doesn't even cover the huge and growing deficits.

Imagine what would happen if the government tried to lessen the staggering yearly increase in our federal, state & local debts which WILL be paid for by our children and grandchildren.

Imagine if they were actually paying for all of these massive, entrenched and generational huge government spending programs so as not to further add to a deficit that is already so massive and virtually inconceivable that it will arguably ruin this great country.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this, friend. :drink:

Well friend, I'm self employed so I can only speak from my experiences. Maybe my CPA is setting me up for future audits, but when all is said and done I don't pay "almost 50%" or anywhere close to it. Granted I have a few more deductions available, but I also start out paying 6+% more than the majority due to Social Security. Despite that 6% I have to admit, I'm a happy freaking camper being my own boss and living the American dream. :drink:

chacha
03-21-2010, 10:30 AM
So Lefty, how do you account for the hundreds of millions of dead folks buried (well, not all of them) in the wakes of socialist regimes?

Are you suggesting that Ms Werthmann's account of the events that unfolded in her country is "serious whack job nonsense"? That's extremely disrespectful coming from someone as condescending as yourself.

And when you say "OMG", are you calling on God for something?

As "enlightened" as you present yourself to be, please allay the concerns of those less "informed". Help us Lefty to see that all is well in our republic.

wowee I've never seen this part of the fourm before! So lefty??? You keep calling him lefty and mocking him? Great discussion here. I'll have to check the rest of this forum out, seems...interesting.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 10:41 AM
Well friend, I'm self employed so I can only speak from my experiences. Maybe my CPA is setting me up for future audits, but when all is said and done I don't pay "almost 50%" or anywhere close to it. Granted I have a few more deductions available, but I also start out paying 6+% more than the majority due to Social Security. Despite that 6% I have to admit, I'm a happy freaking camper being my own boss and living the American dream. :drink:

Everybody that has a job pays FICA. They just don't realize it. Everybody pays fed and state (except a few) income tax, FICA, medicare, sales tax, property tax, and various other "fees", "excises", and so forth. Depending on where you live, that can exceed 50%. In my case it does. In everybody else's case, its closer to 50% than they realize.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 10:43 AM
wowee I've never seen this part of the fourm before! So lefty??? You keep calling him lefty and mocking him? Great discussion here. I'll have to check the rest of this forum out, seems...interesting.

You should do some more reading before you "weigh in".

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 10:46 AM
North Carolina. State, county, city, and sales take me over 50% to the @#$%ing gubmint. Yes, I have a "problem" with that.

Maybe you should try a CPA.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 10:47 AM
Yes, it's very true that some Canadians want changes to their health care system, but it's quite a reach to start comparing Obama wanting to instill a single-payer health care system to Nazi Germany or Russian gulags. In fact, it's downright ignorant.

Ignorant?

Rather than waste a lot of time being redundant... http://forums.steelersfever.com/showpost.php?p=788395&postcount=103

chacha
03-21-2010, 10:47 AM
You should do some more reading before you "weigh in".

excuse me? Now you're attacking me? I'm sorry but your tone to the poster was getting personal, he wasnt attacking you personally just what was posted. I have read many of your posts just recently as a matter of fact, and after reading them I think this will be my first and only reply to you. Have a nice day

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 10:48 AM
Well friend, I'm self employed so I can only speak from my experiences. Maybe my CPA is setting me up for future audits, but when all is said and done I don't pay "almost 50%" or anywhere close to it. Granted I have a few more deductions available, but I also start out paying 6+% more than the majority due to Social Security. Despite that 6% I have to admit, I'm a happy freaking camper being my own boss and living the American dream. :drink:

I think that's a great attitude Platypus. :thumbsup:

Again, I simply stated that some people pay close to 50% of their income to Federal, State & local taxes which I think is excessive.

Thank you for input and since you were kind enough to weigh in I was just wondering if you had any thoughts regarding the other parts of my last post?:

If I am not mistaken, many people have paid close to 45% between federal, state & local taxes and that doesn't even cover the huge and growing deficits.

Imagine what would happen if the government tried to lessen the staggering yearly increase in our federal, state & local debts which WILL be paid for by our children and grandchildren.

Imagine if they were actually paying for all of these massive, entrenched and generational huge government spending programs so as not to further add to a deficit that is already so massive and virtually inconceivable that it will arguably ruin this great country.

Would love to hear your thoughts on this, friend. :drink:

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 11:01 AM
Everybody that has a job pays FICA. They just don't realize it. Everybody pays fed and state (except a few) income tax, FICA, medicare, sales tax, property tax, and various other "fees", "excises", and so forth. Depending on where you live, that can exceed 50%. In my case it does. In everybody else's case, its closer to 50% than they realize.+

I feel sorry for the person that doens't realize that they pay FICA. It's printed on their freaking checks. But, what you seem to be ignoring in my post or simply don't realize is that employers pay 50% of FICA. Being self employed I pay it all or 6+% more to begin with.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 11:04 AM
excuse me? Now you're attacking me? I'm sorry but your tone to the poster was getting personal, he wasnt attacking you personally just what was posted. I have read many of your posts just recently as a matter of fact, and after reading them I think this will be my first and only reply to you. Have a nice day

If you consider that an attack, you might want to frequent another forum... http://forum.muppetcentral.com/forumdisplay.php?f=12

In as much as Lefty and I used the same words, shameless, and condescending, how do you judge one to be "personal" and the other not?

Oh, dear! Is there nothing I can say to make this up to you? :jerkit:

Have a nice day!

http://firstbuildgod.files.wordpress.com/2007/03/hitler-smiley.thumbnail.jpg

I almost forgot. This is "personal", so feel free to be offended. Your av is really annoying.

chacha
03-21-2010, 11:09 AM
totally classless

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 11:09 AM
free market enterprise says their will be abortion clinics. a woman has the freedom and liberties to visit one if she so wishes. you support taking this away. obama does not.



..and forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but I think you brought up government sponsored abortions paid for by the parents taxes without them having the right to know they are in effect paying for their own preteen daughter's abortion is your example of "Obama and freedom and liberty".

So following your line of reasoning, I am just curious.....do you also feel that Obama supporting partial birth abortion, which is the piercing of the skull of a newborn baby and sucking out it's brain, DURING birth, and having it paid by tax payer dollars is also an example of "Obama & freedom & liberty?"

I feel without hesitation, that you are an intelligent and caring person Tony, so I respect your opinion on these things.

....and by the way, I am adopted and now have developed a friendship with my birth mother whom I've never met...so needless to say this is something that greatly interests me.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 11:16 AM
+

I feel sorry for the person that doens't realize that they pay FICA. It's printed on their freaking checks. But, what you seem to be ignoring in my post or simply don't realize is that employers pay 50% of FICA. Being self employed I pay it all or 6+% more to begin with.

Yes, Platypus, I am aware of that. Its been a while since I have worked for anybody, so I looked in my 2010 SS statement...

"You currently pay 6.2% of your salary up to $106,800 in SS taxes, and 1.45% in medicare taxes. Your employer also pays 6.2% of your salary and 1.45% in medicare taxes for you". It goes on to say that "if you are self employed, you pay the combined employee and employer amount of 12.4% in SS taxes, and 2.9% in medicare taxes.".

Vincent
03-21-2010, 11:22 AM
I think this will be my first and only reply to you.

totally classless

That was your second reply. Now you're being capricious.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 11:34 AM
Where do you live that you give up almost 50% of what you work for?

How much tax do we really pay?


Federal personal income tax: 17%..... Top 25% rate. It ranges from a credit up to well over 40%.
State & local income taxes: 10.1%..... State taxes range from under 6% to over 12%. Local taxes run from zero to 2.75%.
Sales tax : 8.6%.... Figure is the average rate. (Illinois is 10.25%)
Social security & Medicaid: 7.65%... Total rate is actually 15.3% since half is paid by the employer, but we can ignore that to be kind.
Federal corporate income tax share: 3%... Based on corporate taxes being approximately 1/6 of personal taxes, and that they are paid by individuals in the final analysis.
Property tax : 2.5%.... Yearly average actual costs range from under $200 in Alaska to almost $1900 in New Jersey. (That's only the average...I paid $2,225 last year)
Fuel/gasoline tax : 5% ..... ( I pay 6.25%) Approximately 23% of the gasoline price is for federal & state taxes. The federal excise tax is 18.4 cents per gallon. Per the CPI, about 6% of the average budget is for transportation.
Other (see below):... 5% Includes estate tax, fees, licenses, inflation losses, inheritance, deficit allowance, gift, and others too numerous to mention.


Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen: 54.4%....since this figure does not distinguish between taxes on gross and net income, the total can be argued to be closer to 46-48%


The current administration claims the average US citizen pays 34% in taxes....but gives no numbers or equation to back the difference.:noidea:

Here is a partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Deficit spending
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Post Secondary Education Privilege Tax or "Fair Share Tax"
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Toll Bridge & Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

chacha
03-21-2010, 11:43 AM
not only are we taxed for every little thing, we also have to pay incredible, ridiculous fees for the banks we go to, our credit cards, our car insurace, those of us who are lucky enough to have health insurance, our cable, our food, etc. We're being gouged left and right. The big companies are the ones who have been running this country for a long time now, and they're the ones I worry about the most because they keep coming up with ways around any new regulations to rip us off even more.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 11:49 AM
not only are we taxed for every little thing, we also have to pay incredible, ridiculous fees for the banks we go to, our credit cards, our car insurace, those of us who are lucky enough to have health insurance, our cable, our food, etc. We're being gouged left and right. The big companies are the ones who have been running this country for a long time now, and they're the ones I worry about the most because they keep coming up with ways around any new regulations to rip us off even more.

I don't pay 50% of my income to "big business"....so I'm not quite following your comparison. :huh:

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 11:49 AM
The big companies are the ones who have been running this country for a long time now, and they're the ones I worry about the most because they keep coming up with ways around any new regulations to rip us off even more.

I couldn't agree more Chacha.

Large and unethical businesses seem to be running everything now.

..and I think we can also agree the biggest business of all, is government...

After all, many of us are forced to pay close to 1/2 of our earnings to them.

wouldn't you agree? :drink:

chacha
03-21-2010, 11:54 AM
I agree, the governments been controlled by corporations for years now. I don't mind paying taxes, within reason, as long as it's for the good of everyone, but when it's just to line a fat politicians pocket (while the lobbyists give them money too) then no thank you

Vincent
03-21-2010, 11:58 AM
not only are we taxed for every little thing, we also have to pay incredible, ridiculous fees for the banks we go to, our credit cards, our car insurace, those of us who are lucky enough to have health insurance, our cable, our food, etc. We're being gouged left and right. The big companies are the ones who have been running this country for a long time now, and they're the ones I worry about the most because they keep coming up with ways around any new regulations to rip us off even more.

Of the taxes that Lamberts-Lost-Tooth listed above, which has been imposed by "big companies"?

"lucky enough to have health insurance"? "Lucky"? People work for their insurance. They earn it. I don't "work" for my insurance. I stroke a $1,200 check each and every month for it because I choose to.

Are you an adult? No, thats not an attack. Its a question that descends from what you post.

chacha
03-21-2010, 12:01 PM
Vinnie, I'm still astounded that you knew the word capricious! :applaudit:

chacha
03-21-2010, 12:04 PM
Of the taxes that Lamberts-Lost-Tooth listed above, which has been imposed by "big companies"?

"lucky enough to have health insurance"? "Lucky"? People work for their insurance. They earn it. I don't "work" for my insurance. I stroke a $1,200 check each and every month for it because I choose to.

Are you an adult? No, thats not an attack. Its a question that descends from what you post.

Are you senile? I dont mean to be cruel but since you wondered if I was actually an adult, well it seems a fair question. There are millions of people who work long hours and work hard who do not get health insurance Vinnie. It is becoming a luxury for many people. You're lucky you can STROKE a 1,200 check each month.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 12:13 PM
How much tax do we really pay?


Federal personal income tax: 17%..... Top 25% rate. It ranges from a credit up to well over 40%.
State & local income taxes: 10.1%..... State taxes range from under 6% to over 12%. Local taxes run from zero to 2.75%.
Sales tax : 8.6%.... Figure is the average rate. (Illinois is 10.25%)
Social security & Medicaid: 7.65%... Total rate is actually 15.3% since half is paid by the employer, but we can ignore that to be kind.
Federal corporate income tax share: 3%... Based on corporate taxes being approximately 1/6 of personal taxes, and that they are paid by individuals in the final analysis.
Property tax : 2.5%.... Yearly average actual costs range from under $200 in Alaska to almost $1900 in New Jersey. (That's only the average...I paid $2,225 last year)
Fuel/gasoline tax : 5% ..... ( I pay 6.25%) Approximately 23% of the gasoline price is for federal & state taxes. The federal excise tax is 18.4 cents per gallon. Per the CPI, about 6% of the average budget is for transportation.
Other (see below):... 5% Includes estate tax, fees, licenses, inflation losses, inheritance, deficit allowance, gift, and others too numerous to mention.

I love statistics without reference, it makes it easy to scare and manipulate the masses.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 12:20 PM
I agree, the governments been controlled by corporations for years now.

McCain spoke forcefully on May 25, 2006, on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005. McCain managed to predict the entire collapse that has forced the government to pay off Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with Bear Stearns and AIG.

It never made it out of committee. Chris Dodd, the ranking member of the Banking Committee and now its chair, was in the middle of receiving preferential loan treatment from Countrywide Mortgage. Barney Frank said he wanted Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to "roll the dice" in the name of affordable housing and that the problems predicted by McCain were a "myth".

The point is...We do have politicians who want to stand up to "big business"....and others who want to fill their pockets with lobbyist monies.

Which side of the aisle was correct?....which side do you support?

I don't mind paying taxes, within reason...

You have been shown the numbers...please tell me if you think they are "within reason".

when it's just to line a fat politicians pocket (while the lobbyists give them money too) then no thank you

Top 5 Recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Campaign Contributions, 1989-2008


1. Dodd, Christopher J, D-CT.... $133,900

2. Kerry, John, D-MA..... $111,000

3. Obama, Barack, D-IL.... $105,849

4. Clinton, Hillary, D-NY.... $75,550

5. Kanjorski, Paul E, D-PA.... $65,500

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 12:23 PM
I love statistics without reference, it makes it easy to scare and manipulate the masses.

As I love those unwilling to provide research to contradict such claims. But then its much easier to type one sentence...then to actually do ones homework.


We can be civil and provide facts to each other in this thread....or we can take the lazy way out and just poo-poo away anything that the other has to say.

chacha
03-21-2010, 12:24 PM
Mr Lamberts lost tooth, you quickly brought up some Dems in reply to my post, why is this a Dem, Repub thing? You can pick and choose what Dems get what and I could go run and get some statistics about Republicans getting this and that. I dont care though, I'm an Independent and think both parties stink. Anyway it's a beautiful day! What are we all doing inside?

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 12:26 PM
Really?

Would you care showing some examples to support this statement you just made about me?

I would love to debate this with you.

Since you're the characterizing me with this statement, feel free to start anywhere.great. we will start fresh and anew since you you have entered the false and make believe subject to be debated. to unmuddy the topic and start from the ground floor...

please tell us all the freedoms and liberties obama has taken away from you in the past year.

the complete lie that he has taken away 50% of your earnings isnt even worth entertaining, as there are 2 certainties in life- death and taxes. it has already been established thet these taxes have been around fad longer than obama.

but please feel free to quantify how much MORE obama has taken from you so we can see how the specific dollar amount of that increase might have violated your freedoms and liberties. :smile:

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 12:32 PM
Of the taxes that Lamberts-Lost-Tooth listed above, which has been imposed by "big companies"?

.its more of a reciprocal effect.

the more cars that are built, the more the highways need repaired and officers to police them. the more high tech communication devices that are invented, the more agents we need to make sure there is no terroristic activity being planned etc...

chacha
03-21-2010, 12:37 PM
McCain spoke forcefully on May 25, 2006, on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005. McCain managed to predict the entire collapse that has forced the government to pay off Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with Bear Stearns and AIG.

It never made it out of committee. Chris Dodd, the ranking member of the Banking Committee and now its chair, was in the middle of receiving preferential loan treatment from Countrywide Mortgage. Barney Frank said he wanted Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to "roll the dice" in the name of affordable housing and that the problems predicted by McCain were a "myth".

The point is...We do have politicians who want to stand up to "big business"....and others who want to fill their pockets with lobbyist monies.



we have politicians who want to stand up to big buisness...sure we do. sure we do.
Not McCain, who could flip flop with the best of them. Here's some info for you.

Aquiles Suarez, was an economic adviser to the McCain campaign who was formerly the director of government and industry relations for Fannie Mae. The Senate Lobbying Database says Suarez oversaw the lending giant's $47,510,000 lobbying campaign from 2003 to 2006.

The lobbying firm of Charlie Black, one of McCain's top aides, made at least $820,000 working for Freddie Mac from 1999 to 2004.

The McCain campaign's vice-chair Wayne Berman and its congressional liaison John Green made $1.14 million working on behalf of Fannie Mae for lobbying firm Ogilvy Government Relations. Green made an additional $180,000 from Freddie Mac. Arther B. Culvahouse Jr., the VP vetter who helped John McCain select Sarah Palin, earned $80,000 from Fannie Mae in 2003 and 2004, while working for lobbying and law firm O'Melveny & Myers LLP. It was also reported that at least 20 McCain fundraisers have lobbied for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, pocketing at least $12.3 million over the last nine years.

McCain campaign manager Rick Davis was head of the Homeownership Alliance, a lobbying association that included Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, real estate agents, homebuilders, and non-profits. This organization opposed congressional attempts at regulation of Fannie and Freddie. Davis went on record in 2003 and insisted that no further reform of the lenders was necessary

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 12:38 PM
[QUOTE=lamberts-lost-tooth;788439]As I love those unwilling to provide research to contradict such claims. But then its much easier to type one sentence...then to actually do ones homework.





Okay, this should make it easy for you to understand my comment and why the list doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Neither 8% sales tax or 5% gasoline tax are the same as 8% and 5% tax on actual income as your list suggests.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 12:39 PM
Vinnie, I'm still astounded that you knew the word capricious! :applaudit:

Are you senile? I dont mean to be cruel but since you wondered if I was actually an adult, well it seems a fair question. There are millions of people who work long hours and work hard who do not get health insurance Vinnie. It is becoming a luxury for many people. You're lucky you can STROKE a 1,200 check each month.

It never ceases to amaze me that whatever pink mist you weenies live in, you can take the slightest disagreement as a personal affront, yet feel justified is actually belittling those you attack. My choice of "capricious" in this case was for brevity.

I asked if you are an adult because your expressed views are callow. You counter with "Are you senile?", further to my point.

Rather than answer questions that descend directly from what you post, you respond with ad hominem bull@#$%. So, I'll ask again...

In as much as Lefty and I used the same words, shameless, and condescending, how do you judge one to be "personal" and the other not?

Of the taxes that Lamberts-Lost-Tooth listed above, which has been imposed by "big companies"?

And since you seem incapable of answering simple questions, I'll also ask again...

Are you an adult?.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 12:48 PM
It never ceases to amaze me that whatever pink mist you weenies live in, you can take the slightest disagreement as a personal affront, yet feel justified is actually belittling those you attack. My choice of "capricious" in this case was for brevity.

I asked if you are an adult because your expressed views are callow. You counter with "Are you senile?", further to my point.




You're pretty much the last person that should be playing the victim.

chacha
03-21-2010, 12:49 PM
Vinnie, I am an adult. Now you never answered if you were senile or not but I excuse you from answering in case you really are. I'm sorry you think I'm callow, sorry to hurt your feelings like that. But I figured by being as mean spirited as you, we could bond. Really, it's that important to me that you like me.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 01:09 PM
Okay, this should make it easy for you to understand my comment and why the list doesn't hold up to scrutiny. Neither 8% sales tax or 5% gasoline tax are the same as 8% and 5% tax on actual income as your list suggests.

Well....I see that reading is fundamental.

The percentages shown are the percent of those items in which you pay taxes on when purchased...... NOT the percentage of your total income that goes to those items..for example:

A) 8% of sales tax is the amount you pay when you purchase an item...NOT 8% of your total income goes to sales tax
b) 5% of what you pay for gas is a tax...NOT 5% of your total income goes to sales tax.

I thought this was obvious...Since basic math shows that those taxes add up to 58.85% if you added them together...and NOT the 54% I stated (which I also said was probably closer to 46-48% so as to be fair)

What I stated is backed by simple internet searches on taxes.

In 1960, middle-income Americans paid less than 30% of their earnings in local, state, and Federal taxes; today, that figure is up to 40%. Moreover, many middle- and upper-income families living in the states that have the highest rates, such as New York and California, pay nearly half their incomes in taxes.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1272/is_n2576_v121/ai_13807542/


Study after study has shown that federal taxes today increase the cost of all products and services by between 20-35 percent - the so-called "hidden tax". State and local government taxes further raise that share to between 38-48 percent.
http://www.catslv.org/pay.html

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 01:12 PM
or lets just blow up this rediculous comparrisson in its entirety. fist of all austria is nothing close to the worlds leading superpower. never has been, never will be.

and for this premise to even be closer to us converting to the same socialsim of the nazis, it would have to assume that reagann republicans conquered the soviets. that bush vol.1 convinced our allies (saudis and kuwaitis) that they should elect him as their emperor, and that bush vol. 2 would have conquered afghanistan, iraq, and already have invaded pakistan and iran.

then, and only then, could obama be on the path to world domination he is being accused of.

then again, we are talking about rulers who are tyrants, and ruled and imposed their will with military force and killing all opposition.

when does that begin? seems that since obama has only a maximum of 7 more years in office he is running out of time. unless gbmelblount is right and we will no longer have the freedoms and liberties to elect our next leader and vote for his replacement. :coffee:

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 01:32 PM
Well....I see that reading is fundamental.

The percentages shown are the percent of those items in which you pay taxes on when purchased...... NOT the percentage of your total income that goes to those items..for example:

A) 8% of sales tax is the amount you pay when you purchase an item...NOT 8% of your total income goes to sales tax
b) 5% of what you pay for gas is a tax...NOT 5% of your total income goes to sales tax.

I thought this was obvious...Since basic math shows that those taxes add up to 58.85% if you added them together...and NOT the 54% I stated (which I also said was probably closer to 46-48% so as to be fair)

What I stated is backed by simple internet searches on taxes.

Actually you pretty much just did a copy and paste job and didn't say anything.
http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.html

You did pretty much the same thing in post #58.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/17/mccains-attempt-to-fix-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2005

In the future it would be great if you used the quote tags and provided links.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 01:34 PM
or lets just blow up this rediculous comparrisson in its entirety. fist of all austria is nothing close to the worlds leading superpower. never has been, never will be.



I actually agree with this...I have more of a problem with "Government" than I have with either party. Granted I do lean towards conservative values and ideology....and it rubs me the wrong way to see people overlook their political parties fault in the destruction of this country....and I will tend to call people out on this.

That being said....we all need to understand that both parties are ruining our nation. Its WAAAAYYYY past time to get our heads out of the sand and look at what is going on around us.

If this country is going in a direction in which we may lose our most basic freedoms and liberties....we can DAMN well bet that its because POLITICIANS have sold us out. Being from a state in which both Republican and Democratic governors have been indicted and are (or soon will be) serving time in prison....I have no faith at all that we have a system in which we are being represented.

As I have said before...lets state facts in this forum....and quit making excuses.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 01:37 PM
Actually you pretty much just did a copy and paste job and didn't say anything.
http://www.nowandfutures.com/taxes.html

You did pretty much the same thing in post #58.

http://hotair.com/archives/2008/09/17/mccains-attempt-to-fix-fannie-mae-freddie-mac-in-2005

In the future it would be great if you used the quote tags and provided links.

Actually I stated it was from internet searches....nice try.

....and that is a simple diversion from your lack of math comprehension and your failure to be able to contradict the post.

Feel free to try again....:wave:

An actual well thought out response as opposed to one line disagreement would be appreciated.

This is probably the easiest way to do this.

YOU disregarded those of us who claimed that Americans pay almost 50% of their total income for some form of taxation...and stated that we were making such claims to "work the masses into a frenzy"

Please provide some argument as to how our claims are "emotional" rather than "factual".

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 01:46 PM
....and that is a simple diversion from your lack of math comprehension and your failure to be able to contradict the post.

Feel free to try again....:wave:

An actual well thought out response as opposed to one line disagreement would be appreciated. actually the whole "50% of our income being taxed is imposed by obama and an example of him taking away our freedoms and liberties", was a gross deflection and flat out lie in the 1st place. we've been paying taxes for years.

using that as an example to prove that we are turning into 1938 austria, or even worse yet, nazi germany is pathetic.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 01:47 PM
Actually I stated it was from internet searches....nice try.

....and that is a simple diversion from your lack of math comprehension and your failure to be able to contradict the post.

Feel free to try again....:wave:

An actual well thought out response as opposed to one line disagreement would be appreciated.

Try again. Your first post in it's entirety. How much tax do we really pay?


Federal personal income tax: 17%..... Top 25% rate. It ranges from a credit up to well over 40%.
State & local income taxes: 10.1%..... State taxes range from under 6% to over 12%. Local taxes run from zero to 2.75%.
Sales tax : 8.6%.... Figure is the average rate. (Illinois is 10.25%)
Social security & Medicaid: 7.65%... Total rate is actually 15.3% since half is paid by the employer, but we can ignore that to be kind.
Federal corporate income tax share: 3%... Based on corporate taxes being approximately 1/6 of personal taxes, and that they are paid by individuals in the final analysis.
Property tax : 2.5%.... Yearly average actual costs range from under $200 in Alaska to almost $1900 in New Jersey. (That's only the average...I paid $2,225 last year)
Fuel/gasoline tax : 5% ..... ( I pay 6.25%) Approximately 23% of the gasoline price is for federal & state taxes. The federal excise tax is 18.4 cents per gallon. Per the CPI, about 6% of the average budget is for transportation.
Other (see below):... 5% Includes estate tax, fees, licenses, inflation losses, inheritance, deficit allowance, gift, and others too numerous to mention.


Total tax percentage paid by the above average US citizen: 54.4%....since this figure does not distinguish between taxes on gross and net income, the total can be argued to be closer to 46-48%


The current administration claims the average US citizen pays 34% in taxes....but gives no numbers or equation to back the difference.

Here is a partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:

Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Court Fines (indirect taxes)
Deficit spending
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax
Local Income Tax
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare Tax
Post Secondary Education Privilege Tax or "Fair Share Tax"
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Toll Bridge & Toll Tunnel Taxes
Traffic Fines (indirect taxation)
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax

and post #58 in it's entirety

Quote:
Originally Posted by chacha View Post
I agree, the governments been controlled by corporations for years now.
McCain spoke forcefully on May 25, 2006, on behalf of the Federal Housing Enterprise Regulatory Reform Act of 2005. McCain managed to predict the entire collapse that has forced the government to pay off Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with Bear Stearns and AIG.

It never made it out of committee. Chris Dodd, the ranking member of the Banking Committee and now its chair, was in the middle of receiving preferential loan treatment from Countrywide Mortgage. Barney Frank said he wanted Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to "roll the dice" in the name of affordable housing and that the problems predicted by McCain were a "myth".

The point is...We do have politicians who want to stand up to "big business"....and others who want to fill their pockets with lobbyist monies.

Which side of the aisle was correct?....which side do you support?

Quote:
I don't mind paying taxes, within reason...
You have been shown the numbers...please tell me if you think they are "within reason".

Quote:
when it's just to line a fat politicians pocket (while the lobbyists give them money too) then no thank you
Top 5 Recipients of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac Campaign Contributions, 1989-2008


1. Dodd, Christopher J, D-CT.... $133,900

2. Kerry, John, D-MA..... $111,000

3. Obama, Barack, D-IL.... $105,849

4. Clinton, Hillary, D-NY.... $75,550

5. Kanjorski, Paul E, D-PA.... $65,500


Nothing about internet searches there. Maybe you want to go back and edit them to prevent any further confusion.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 01:52 PM
And I provided a response regarding my experiences as a taxpayer and I come nowhere near paying 50%of my income no matter how you slice it. Yet once again you people that claim to pay 50% need to hire an accountant, you're only screwing yourselves. But anyway, this is way off topic at this point and I need to work (It's the whole small business owner thing). Kudos to Kitty Werthman(sp?) and her ability to get $30 for a dvd.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 01:53 PM
Try again. Your first post in it's entirety.

and post #58 in it's entirety



Nothing about internet searches there. Maybe you want to go back and edit them to prevent any further confusion.

O Boy....another rabbit trail.

I said:

What I stated is backed by simple internet searches on taxes.


Now....enough diversion....Lets try again......Please stay on topic

The point of our disagreement is that you state that our facts are gven to "manipulate the masses".

YOU disregarded those of us who claimed that Americans pay almost 50% of their total income for some form of taxation...Please provide some argument as to how our claims are "emotional" rather than "factual".

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 01:59 PM
actually the whole "50% of our income being taxed is imposed by obama and an example of him taking away our freedoms and liberties", was a gross deflection and flat out lie in the 1st place. we've been paying taxes for years.

using that as an example to prove that we are turning into 1938 austria, or even worse yet, nazi germany is pathetic.

YOU need to get your facts straight before you start flaming me!!!

I specifically stated that I agreed with you that a comparison to Austria is stupid. So how the HELL did I use it as an example to "prove we are turning into 1938 Austria"


Your post:

Originally Posted by tony hipchest
or lets just blow up this rediculous comparrisson in its entirety. fist of all austria is nothing close to the worlds leading superpower. never has been, never will be.

My reply:

I actually agree with this

Dont go there Tony....You want to start calling me pathetic without getting your facts straight isnt where you want to go.

I have been MORE than fair to our President and YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT!!

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 02:00 PM
O Boy....another rabbit trail.

I said:




Now....enough diversion....Lets try again......Please stay on topic

The point of our disagreement is that you state that our facts are gven to "manipulate the masses".

YOU disregarded those of us who claimed that Americans pay almost 50% of their total income for some form of taxation...Please provide some argument as to how our claims are "emotional" rather than "factual".


And yet once again since you don't seem to get it. You didn't state anything you just copied and pasted some stuff and passed it off as your own.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 02:03 PM
And I provided a response regarding my experiences as a taxpayer and I come nowhere near paying 50%of my income no matter how you slice it. Yet once again you people that claim to pay 50% need to hire an accountant, you're only screwing yourselves. But anyway, this is way off topic at this point and I need to work (It's the whole small business owner thing). Kudos to Kitty Werthman(sp?) and her ability to get $30 for a dvd.

Your proven inability to calculate is not the type of "proof" that anyone in this forum is willing to accept....sorry.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 02:06 PM
And yet once again since you don't seem to get it. You didn't state anything you just copied and pasted some stuff and passed it off as your own.

Translation: "I cant argue the facts"
Again...I showed where I said it was an internet search..(even posted it again..just for you.) So since EVERYONE else knows you are simply shucking and jiving your way out of a debate in which you are not prepared with any formidable knowledge...we will let it go at that.

:wave:

MACH1
03-21-2010, 02:09 PM
actually the whole "50% of our income being taxed is imposed by obama and an example of him taking away our freedoms and liberties", was a gross deflection and flat out lie in the 1st place. we've been paying taxes for years.

using that as an example to prove that we are turning into 1938 austria, or even worse yet, nazi germany is pathetic.

http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2008/08/political-pictures-barack-obama-want-you-me.jpg
:chuckle:


With this bill we are losing freedoms! Its not the governments place to hand out "god given unalienable rights". The government givith and the government will taketh away!

I agree completely with our God-given rights as stated in the Constitution. I also believe we have the God-given right to work hard and to enjoy the fruits of our labors, another God-given right that is being trampled by laws, regulations and taxes.

We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 02:19 PM
YOU need to get your facts straight before you start flaming me!!!

I specifically stated that I agreed with you that a comparison to Austria is stupid. So how the HELL did I use it as an example to "prove we are turning into 1938 Austria"


Your post:



My reply:



Dont go there Tony....You want to start calling me pathetic without getting your facts straight isnt where you want to go.

I have been MORE than fair to our President and YOU DAMN WELL KNOW THAT!!i wasnt flaming you and the pathetic comparrissons were made by vincent, steelgal, and gbmel. i was just kinda illustrating how the entire discussion of 50% taxes is a moot point in this thread as it was off topic and entered under bogus premises.

sorry you took it the wrong way.

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 02:22 PM
i wasnt flaming you and the pathetic comparrissons were made by vincent, steelgal, and gbmel. i was just kinda illustrating how the entire discussion of 50% taxes is a moot point in this thread as it was off topic and entered under bogus premises.

sorry you took it the wrong way.

Well...you were replying to MY post...why would I NOT think you were replying to me?

For the record...I posted that list...not as an idictement against Obama...but against our Government...the list is from 2005, long before Obama was elected. (And taxes have gone up since then so it IS probably closer to 50%)

(and regardless of what some people think....I'm not going to take the time to memorize all 43 taxes before I post them...)

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 02:24 PM
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.


-some of the finest words the slave owners ever said.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 02:27 PM
Translation: "I cant argue the facts"
Again...I showed where I said it was an internet search..(even posted it again..just for you.) So since EVERYONE else knows you are simply shucking and jiving your way out of a debate in which you are not prepared with any formidable knowledge...we will let it go at that.

:wave:

:rofl::rofl:

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 02:30 PM
Well...you were replying to MY post...why would I NOT think you were replying to me?

For the record...I posted that list...not as an idictement against Obama...but against our Government...the list is from 2005, long before Obama was elected.

(and regardless of what some people think....I'm not going to take the time to memorize all 43 taxes before I post them...)

exactly, and i already gave you credit for totally debunking gbmels wacky assertation that obama is taking away 50% of his income.

and since when is simply replying to a post condidered flaming.

being that this thread has turned into a discussion of how much a percentage of a tax is paid, it perfectly illustrates how effective GBmelblounts diversion and deflection tactic has worked.

he accused obama of taking away his freedoms and liberties, just like how the nazi's and stalin did, and when he feet were put to the fire to give examples of exactly which ones he no longer has that he had a year ago, he came up empty.

as long as we allow this thread to be a 50% tax thread it will mask the hollowness of his bogus claim.:noidea:

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 02:30 PM
:rofl::rofl:

Your best post of the day!!!!:thumbsup:

"Better to keep your mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and resolve all doubt".-Abraham Lincoln

lamberts-lost-tooth
03-21-2010, 02:38 PM
exactly, and i already gave you credit for totally debunking gbmels wacky assertation that obama is taking away 50% of his income.

and since when is simply replying to a post condidered flaming.

being that this thread has turned into a discussion of how much a percentage of a tax is paid, it perfectly illustrates how effective GBmelblounts diversion and deflection tactic has worked.

he accused obama of taking away his freedoms and liberties, just like how the nazi's and stalin did, and when he feet were put to the fire to give examples of exactly which ones he no longer has that he had a year ago, he came up empty.

as long as we allow this thread to be a 50% tax thread it will mast the hollowness of his bogus claim.:noidea:

Look at your post and I think you will understand what i mean. "In that specific context" it came across as directed at me...but no harm no foul.

I totally agree with you that the comparison in the original post is not a very good one....and i would challenge EVERYONE in this thread to quit thinking along party lines and understand that the politicians are the bad guys in this little debate...not each other.

MACH1
03-21-2010, 03:02 PM
-some of the finest words the slave owners ever said.

In a socialists own words.

"My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join me as we try to change it." - Barack Obama

"Well, Charlie, what I’ve said is that I would look at raising the capital gains tax for purposes of fairness." - Barack Obama

Not because it would increase revenue, but for "fairness". Yes that's right...punish success...

“It’s not that I want to punish your success. I just want to make sure that everybody who is behind you, that they’ve got a chance for success too. My attitude is that if the economy’s good for folks from the bottom up, it’s gonna be good for everybody … I think when you spread the wealth around, it’s good for everybody.” - Barack Obama

"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more." - Michelle Obama

"[Billionaires] have this idea that it's 'their money' and they deserve to keep every penny of it..." - Barack Obama

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 03:20 PM
the complete lie that he has taken away 50% of your earnings isnt even worth entertaining,

Can you quote or show me where I said that was attributable solely to Obama?

If not, the "lie" comment appears a bit inflammatory.

I understand you might be a bit defensive when you said that you believe in freedom & liberty and when I asked you to give examples of Obama's philosophies that are consistent with that. Again, I'm not sure your government funded abortions was a good example...

If you have other, perhaps better examples that I missed, my apologies, feel free to cite them here... OK? :drink:

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 03:27 PM
..and forgive me if I am misunderstanding you, but I think you brought up government sponsored abortions paid for by the parents taxes without them having the right to know they are in effect paying for their own preteen daughter's abortion is your example of "Obama and freedom and liberty".


....and by the way, I am adopted and now have developed a friendship with my birth mother whom I've never met...so needless to say this is something that greatly interests me.you are forgiven for your misunderstanding. it was actually YOU who brought up this scenario. :busted:

i am the one who said perhaps the parents (or those responsible for legal guardianship) should be fined and forced to pay for the procedure itself.

i am glad you are developing a friendship with your birth mother. if i am to understand conservative republicans who hate federal and state taxes correctly, im i to assume that since i wasnt adopted, and would never give a child up for adoption it if fair for me to say i should receive a tax break and all those who have been affected, be forced to pay for the entire burdon, of orphanages, and foster care programs?

even a legal last name change places a burdon on the local govt and social security administration and costs money that i assume ALL of OUR taxes pay for.

i can see where it would be fair and beneficial to you, but is it fair to me and the rest of the majority?

the democratic platform supports to social programs that couldve likely assisted finding you a caring and loving home and parents.

the next time you bash and compare this country to nazi germany, you might wanna take a minute to be thankful that you werent born or orphaned there.

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 03:58 PM
I understand you might be a bit defensive when you said that you believe in freedom & liberty and when I asked you to give examples of Obama's philosophies that are consistent with that. Again, I'm not sure your government funded abortions was a good example...

:again... your words not mine. it is your premise that obama has taken away your freedoms and liberties. now it time for you to own that faulty premise, put your money where your mouth is, and quit dodging the responsibility of backing up YOUR claims.

while i enjoy the supposedly "civil" debate, lets look at all the common fallacies and broken rules of engagement on your part (the biggest "no-no" being the appeal to hitler and naziism along with the multitude of loaded questions)-

Ad hominem
Appeal to fear
Argumentum ad nauseam
Begging the question
Poisoning the well
Quoting out of context
Straw man
Style over substance


this is simple textbook rules and protocol to follow in debate and logic and critical thinking 101. its as simple as A=B, and B=C, therefore A=C

expecting you to follow along and play by the gentlemanly rules isnt too much to ask, is it?

oh, and editing a post an hour after the fact, to change a point you had already been called out on, doesnt change the original premise that was being debated. it is just a roundabout way of acknowledging you were wrong in the first place, without the fortitude to admit as much.

check.

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 05:10 PM
No examples of Obama's platform that are consistent with freedom and liberty.

OK. :thumbsup:

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 05:13 PM
the next time you bash and compare this country to nazi germany, you might wanna take a minute to be thankful that you werent born or orphaned there.

I certainly haven't made any recent posts like that. If you want to dig up old stuff for discussion, that's fine, just find it and post it and we'll discuss it. Unless that was simply a deflection.

If you're angry because you can't show any examples of Obama that are consistent with freedom and liberty. That's Ok.

Just thought I'd ask. :thumbsup:

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 05:19 PM
oh, and editing a post an hour after the fact, to change a point you had already been called out on, doesnt change the original premise that was being debated. it is just a roundabout way of acknowledging you were wrong in the first place, without the fortitude to admit as much.

check.

I did not edit anything because of any of your posts. Wow.

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 05:26 PM
tony hipchest

you are forgiven for your misunderstanding. it was actually YOU who brought up this scenario. :busted:


Sorry Tony, you're right! I misunderstood this exchange:

(very classy response by the way)

tony hipchest

do you think the government should take over control of abortions from the private sector?

GBMelBlount response

Do you think it would be right or ethical for a preteen to have an abortion without their parents knowledge and for it to be paid for by taxes that the parents are forced to pay?

tony hipchest response

well in that case, maybe i think it is ethical to call both parents complete failures and not only should they be punished and fined, but they should be forced to pay for the procedure itself.

if that means losing the lexus and the white picket fenced house in the suburbs, and denying the other 1.3 children a cell phone and a new pair of nike kicks, then so be it.

what do you think about that?

Again, very classy. :drink:

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 05:34 PM
No examples of Obama's platform that are consistent with freedom and liberty.

OK. :thumbsup:i already answered this and not only did you say you couldnt argue against half, you respectfully agree'd to disagree on the other half.

how quickly you forget.

now i have done my part and given specific examples concerning my belief in ones personal freedoms and liberties in regards to drug use, suicide, and abortion.

now it is your turn to do the honorable and civil thing and tell us EXACTLY which freedoms and liberties obama has stolen from you. :thumbsup:

check mate.

Sorry Tony, you're right! I misunderstood this exchange:

(very classy response by the way) i dont think you are that dumb and dense to simply misundertand such a simple take.

infact, i think it was just another cunning and deceitful tactic to try and twist other people words to suit your favor and agenda.

it HAS to be one of the 2. so which one is it?

Vincent
03-21-2010, 05:39 PM
Well, since the Kitty Werthmann article went over so well, I'll drag out one from last summer that handled the "hitler thing" fairly deftly, and began to draw the comparisons between the despot and would be despot. This, by the way, is a libertarian perspective.

http://www.humblelibertarian.com/2009/08/hitler-obama-comparisons-is-barack.html
Thursday, August 27, 2009
Hitler / Obama Comparisons: Is Barack Obama Like Adolf Hitler or The Nazis?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_L5EFG-vZEHo/SpGoREObPsI/AAAAAAAABUc/RzeB3DKHY_U/s400/HitlerObama.jpg

Is Barack Obama like the Nazis or Adolf Hitler? Does even asking the question make you a right-wing nut or a partisan hack? Is it distasteful to mention Hitler or the Nazis to make a point? Let's take a sober look at the answers to these questions below:

Godwin's Law

Adolf Hitler seems to appear frequently in political debates. Reference to Hitler or Nazism is so commonplace that in 1990, U.S. attorney and author Mike Godwin coined an adage that has become well known on Internet discussion forums as Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

Why does that seem to be the case? Because in a fierce political disagreement, there is at least one area of common ground that almost everyone will share: that Adolf Hitler was evil, unequivocally and without argument. Even self-professing moral relativists are hard pressed to maintain otherwise. Adolf Hitler was evil.

When two sides seem to disagree about everything else, that area of common ground can (if emotions don't flare as they often do) actually form a bridge of understanding and communication. People grasp for "the Hitler card" because they know their opponent will agree with the major premise that Hitler was evil. Then it's on to the minor premise, which takes the form of "...and x is just like what we agree made Hitler evil."

"Therefore x is also evil," the debater concludes.

Argumentum ad Hitlerum

The first thing to remember as we approach this issue is that it is a logical fallacy to assert that if Adolf Hitler did or believed x, then x must automatically be bad. It is an association fallacy referred to as "argumentum ad Hitlerum" in parody of the formal titles of other logical fallacies such as "argumentum ad hominem."

Just because Hitler was opposed to smoking tobacco, it does not follow that someone is evil or morally equivalent to Hitler if they abstain from tobacco use. Adolf Hitler did all kinds of things that other people do who are not morally equivalent to him. Hitler painted flowers. So did Georgia O'Keeffe. That does not make Georgia O'Keeffe a genocidal maniac by association.

But it is possible, logically sound, and perfectly fair in some cases to draw a deeper kind of comparison to Hitler. We can assert of someone (if we have the facts to substantiate our claim, of course) that they are morally or politically equivalent- or at least similar- to Hitler because their actions spring from the same ideology and/or tend to produce the same results.

In the case of U.S. President Barack Obama, we must determine whether comparisons of his policies to those of Adolf Hitler are the first kind of accusation (and therefore a fallacy) or the second kind of accusation; and if they are the second kind, then we must determine whether the the comparison is supported by the facts, or if it is a false comparison.

Obama/Hitler Comparisons

Conservatives can intuit (and some can explicitly understand and articulate) that Barack Obama's political program is similar in remarkable and chilling ways to that of Adolf Hitler's. Their argument does not commit the "argumentum ad Hitlerum" fallacy because their assertion is that President Obama's policies and worldview share the very characteristics by which we reckon Hitler as evil, not other irrelevant characteristics.

The actions of the Nazi regime, which are almost universally regarded as vile, were rooted in the ideologies and political programs of socialism, eugenics, and imperialism. Obama's ideology, associations, and governance of the United States thus far betray a fervent and unambiguous commitment to socialist nationalization and government direction of America's major industries, a eugenicist program of strict population control, and a continued policy of aggressive American imperialism and global dominance through force.

One Miami columnist disagreed with this assessment, and criticized what he considers a flippant attitude, which makes light of the Holocaust. He writes:
"I thought it would be good to make you sick, i.e., to spend a few minutes reminding some and teaching others what you invoke when you invoke the Nazi regime.
For the record, then: It was Nazis who shoved sand down a boy's throat until he died, who tossed candies to Jewish children as they sank to their deaths in a sand pit, who threw babies from a hospital window and competed to see how many of those 'little Jews' could be caught on a bayonet, who injected a cement-like fluid into women's uteruses to see what would happen, who stomped a pregnant woman to death, who once snatched a woman's baby from her arms and, in the words of a witness, 'tore him as one would tear a rag.'"

America's Holocaust

So President Obama does not deserve a comparison to the Nazis because the Nazis perpetrated a genocide? Pardon me, sir- isn't Mr. Obama perpetuating a genocide!? He has been accurately described as "the most extreme pro-abortion candidate ever to seek the office of President of the United States. He is the most extreme pro-abortion member of the United States Senate. Indeed, he is the most extreme pro-abortion legislator ever to serve in either house of the United States Congress."

While there is not enough space in this essay to treat of abortion, let me explain briefly that I believe unequivocally, on the basis of uncontroversial scientific facts and a sound anthropological ontology, that a unique, whole, and individual human being is created at conception. For an exhaustive explanation and defense of this belief, let me refer you to my essay entitled: "The Abortion Debate: A Reasoned, Scientific, Pro-Life Argument."

The relentless propaganda to the contrary, dehumanizing and miscategorizing human fetuses, is reminiscent of and similar to the Nazi campaign of dehumanization to justify their brutal treatment of helpless minorities like the Jews. The experimentation carried out on stem cells extracted by destroying human embryos, is chillingly like the medical experimentation carried out by Nazi scientists on their victims.

Eugenics and the Obama Administration

Adolf Hitler and his Nazi Regime were also obsessed with eugenics. They actively worked towards assuming power over Germany's and eventually, the entire world's reproductive rights, with the goal of allowing only the most desirable human beings to reproduce. Obama's appointment of John Holdren as his Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (or more informally, "Science Czar") betrays his administration's eugenicist agenda.

As an anonymous Internet sleuth uncovered after John Holdren's appointment (HT: to Michelle Malkin):
"In a book Holdren co-authored in 1977, the man now firmly in control of science policy in this country wrote that: Women could be forced to abort their pregnancies, whether they wanted to or not; The population at large could be sterilized by infertility drugs intentionally put into the nation's drinking water or in food; Single mothers and teen mothers should have their babies seized from them against their will and given away to other couples to raise; People who 'contribute to social deterioration' (i.e. undesirables) 'can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility' -- in other words, be compelled to have abortions or be sterilized. A transnational 'Planetary Regime' should assume control of the global economy and also dictate the most intimate details of Americans' lives -- using an armed international police force."

You read all of that correctly. If you don't believe me, do the research for yourself. Go out there and find it, but do not write this off and ignore it. I know that what you just read seems too horrible to be true, but it is the truth. John Holdren is our nation's "Science Czar" and he did write these terrible things in his 1977 book, Ecoscience. How can a U.S. President possibly appoint such a person to an office in the White House if he feels about that person's views what any normal and not morally-deranged person would feel?

Socialism and The Obama Administration

In popular conception, "left-wing" politics taken to the extreme produces Stalin, while "right-wing" politics taken to the extreme produces Hitler. What a stupid contrivance! Why should two mass-murdering autocrats end up on opposite ends of a political spectrum? The general American public seems oblivious to the fact that the word "Nazi" is an abbreviation for the "National Socialist German Workers Party." (In German, the word "national" is pronounced nawt-zi-uh-nal.)

Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party were socialist. The horrors inherent in socialism have made themselves all too apparent at this point on the timeline, after a century of warfare and bloodshed unrivaled in human history- the handiwork of socialist ideology and its adherents. His socialism is part of what made Adolf Hitler so evil. There can be no argument that President Obama is likewise, a socialist.

President Obama's unprecedented assumption of powers to himself and his office is remarkably and frighteningly similar to Adolf Hitler's rise to power in Germany. Obama has already suspended habeas corpus by claiming the right of indefinite detainment of potential terrorists without charges. This occurred very shortly after his Department of Homeland Security issued two reports labeling supporters of Ron Paul, certain amendments of the Constitution, devolution of Federal power to the states, or Pro-Life beliefs as potential terrorists.

Conclusion

This is just one of a lengthy list of examples of such abuses- all straight out of the pages of history and Adolf Hitler's playbook. In just a few months as President, Obama has been prolific in his assault on liberty and assumption of boundless executive power. You might even call it a "blitzkrieg." There is simply not enough room to catalog these abuses and yet bring this essay to a timely close (it may be too late for that already!). If you have been paying attention, you know exactly the kind of things to which I refer.

In closing, here is a recap of the questions at the beginning of this essay with their respective answers in light of the information above: Is Barack Obama like the Nazis or Adolf Hitler? Strikingly so. Does even asking the question make you a right-wing nut or a partisan hack? Absolutely not. The evidence is incontrovertible. Is it distasteful to mention Hitler or the Nazis to make a point? Sometimes, but certainly not in this case.

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 05:55 PM
great anti abortion article vincent. gbmelblount will absolutely love it. i love how the author speaks out of both sides of their mouth using the same fallacies they call out in the first place.

"Therefore x is also evil," the debater concludes.

Argumentum ad Hitlerum

The first thing to remember as we approach this issue is that it is a logical fallacy to assert that if Adolf Hitler did or believed x, then x must automatically be bad. It is an association fallacy referred to as "argumentum ad Hitlerum" in parody of the formal titles of other logical fallacies such as "argumentum ad hominem."

i cant remember... was the genocide of the jews legal before hitler seized command? even implying that obama is ordering hundereds of thousands of babies to be destroyed is completely rediculous. :screwy:

SteelCityMom
03-21-2010, 06:09 PM
America's Holocaust

So President Obama does not deserve a comparison to the Nazis because the Nazis perpetrated a genocide? Pardon me, sir- isn't Mr. Obama perpetuating a genocide!? He has been accurately described as "the most extreme pro-abortion candidate ever to seek the office of President of the United States. He is the most extreme pro-abortion member of the United States Senate. Indeed, he is the most extreme pro-abortion legislator ever to serve in either house of the United States Congress."

While there is not enough space in this essay to treat of abortion, let me explain briefly that I believe unequivocally, on the basis of uncontroversial scientific facts and a sound anthropological ontology, that a unique, whole, and individual human being is created at conception. For an exhaustive explanation and defense of this belief, let me refer you to my essay entitled: "The Abortion Debate: A Reasoned, Scientific, Pro-Life Argument."

The relentless propaganda to the contrary, dehumanizing and miscategorizing human fetuses, is reminiscent of and similar to the Nazi campaign of dehumanization to justify their brutal treatment of helpless minorities like the Jews. The experimentation carried out on stem cells extracted by destroying human embryos, is chillingly like the medical experimentation carried out by Nazi scientists on their victims.

He's PRO-CHOICE...learn the difference.

Eugenics and the Obama Administration

Adolf Hitler and his Nazi Regime were also obsessed with eugenics. They actively worked towards assuming power over Germany's and eventually, the entire world's reproductive rights, with the goal of allowing only the most desirable human beings to reproduce. Obama's appointment of John Holdren as his Director of the White House Office of Science and Technology Policy (or more informally, "Science Czar") betrays his administration's eugenicist agenda.

As an anonymous Internet sleuth uncovered after John Holdren's appointment (HT: to Michelle Malkin):
"In a book Holdren co-authored in 1977, the man now firmly in control of science policy in this country wrote that: Women could be forced to abort their pregnancies, whether they wanted to or not; The population at large could be sterilized by infertility drugs intentionally put into the nation's drinking water or in food; Single mothers and teen mothers should have their babies seized from them against their will and given away to other couples to raise; People who 'contribute to social deterioration' (i.e. undesirables) 'can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility' -- in other words, be compelled to have abortions or be sterilized. A transnational 'Planetary Regime' should assume control of the global economy and also dictate the most intimate details of Americans' lives -- using an armed international police force."

You read all of that correctly. If you don't believe me, do the research for yourself. Go out there and find it, but do not write this off and ignore it. I know that what you just read seems too horrible to be true, but it is the truth. John Holdren is our nation's "Science Czar" and he did write these terrible things in his 1977 book, Ecoscience. How can a U.S. President possibly appoint such a person to an office in the White House if he feels about that person's views what any normal and not morally-deranged person would feel?

So was Clinton the next coming of Hitler when he appointed Holdren to his staff from '94-'01? I like how neither you or this article mentions Holdren's words on the matter when he was confirmed.

"When asked whether Mr. Holdren's thoughts on population control have changed over the years, his staff gave The Washington Times a statement that said, "This material is from a three-decade-old, three-author college textbook. Dr. Holdren addressed this issue during his confirmation when he said he does not believe that determining optimal population is a proper role of government. Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization."
...
The White House also passed along a statement from the Ehrlichs that said, in part, "anybody who actually wants to know what we and/or Professor Holdren believe and recommend about these matters would presumably read some of the dozens of publications that we and he separately have produced in more recent times, rather than going back a third of a century to find some formulations in an encyclopedic textbook where description can be misrepresented as endorsement."

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2009/jul/15/hot-button-40981162/?page=2



Obviously nothing anyone says is going to deter you from comparing Obama to Hitler...and that's fine I guess, that's your opinion on the matter. I've already stated my opinion on it as well. In 2 years (most likely) you won't have to worry about it anymore...there will be a whole new president (most likely Republican) that everyone can B&M about. Just know that these comparisons do absolutely no good whatsoever. The best we can all do as Americans is cast our votes and get some of these looneys out of Congress (where the REAL problem is), write our local reps and make our voices heard. As GoSlash mentioned, these comparisons of Hitler to Obama are doing nothing but deterring people from seriously looking into the issues at hand.

chacha
03-21-2010, 06:10 PM
I love it! Vincent probably cried like a baby if anyone dared say anything about George W. but here he's happily vilifying the President of our country and comparing him to Hitler. What hypocrites some people are, if anyone said boo about W they were unpatriotic, but it's ok to post garbage like Vinny does.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 06:13 PM
I love it! Vincent probably cried like a baby if anyone dared say anything about George W. but here he's happily vilifying the President of our country and comparing him to Hitler. What hypocrites some people are, if anyone said boo about W they were unpatriotic, but it's ok to post garbage like Vinny does.

in before the b b b b b b bb b b bb b b b b b b b b b bb bbb buuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssssssssssshhhhhhhhhhhh

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 06:14 PM
now it is your turn to do the honorable and civil thing and tell us EXACTLY which freedoms and liberties obama has stolen from you. :thumbsup:



Very good point Tony. Technically you are right I guess.

Admittedly things have been going south for years. He has simply taken the helm and pushed the petal metal, wouldn't you agree?

All these new programs, spending bills & stimulus packages that will double the deficit are scary as hell and will arguably break the financial back of this country but he did NOT invent big government and the associated reckless and irresponsible spending and deficits, nor was he first to promote government solutions over free markets and capitalism.

Is he arguably taking it to a new level? Yes.

Does he have any real beliefs that are consistent with the liberty and freedom you and I both support? I really don't see any.

Do the vast majority of Obama's beliefs run completely counter to the principals this country founded upon. Arguably, yes. :drink:

Would the founding father's of our country feel they had failed if they saw the direction Obama was taking this country. IMO Yes.

Is Obama and our current government really much different than the one many of our founding fathers dedicated their lives to free us from? Personally, I don't believe so.

chacha
03-21-2010, 06:17 PM
You have to admit, Bush left a real mess for Pres. Obama

SteelCityMom
03-21-2010, 06:17 PM
I love it! Vincent probably cried like a baby if anyone dared say anything about George W. but here he's happily vilifying the President of our country and comparing him to Hitler. What hypocrites some people are, if anyone said boo about W they were unpatriotic, but it's ok to post garbage like Vinny does.

No shit right? I've stated many times I don't like Obama or the health care bill...but I have to say I HATED (with a passion) the Patriot Act. If there's anything that stripped the American people of their life, liberty and pursuit of happiness it was that piece of fodder, yet many people barely even blinked.

If you want me to be perfectly honest (and a little bit politically incorrect), there's one huge reason this nation will never be taken over by a bloodthirsty, genocidal regime...and that reason is hillbillies. I grew up around enough of them, and they keep their guns loaded (for a reason).

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 06:21 PM
Very good point Tony. Technically you are right.

Admittedly things have been going south for years. He has simply taken the helm and pushed the petal metal.

All these spending bills & stimulus and measures that will double the deficit are scary as hell and will arguably break the financial back of this country but did he invent big government and the associated reckless and irresponsible spending, no?

Has he arguably taking it to a new level? Yes.

Does he have any real beliefs that are consistent with the liberty and freedom you say you support. I really don't see any.

Do the vast majority of Obama's beliefs run completely counter to the principals this country founded upon. Arguably, yes. :drink:

Would the founding father's of our country feel they had failed if they saw the direction Obama was taking this country. Yes.

Obama and our current government are not much different than the one many of our founding fathers dedicate their lives to free us from.spit it out mel.

what freedoms and liberties has obama taken away from you? infact, never mind. its just as senseless to allow you to hijack this thread along with the silly notion that along with your liberties, he is also stealing 50% of your income.

chacha
03-21-2010, 06:21 PM
Good point steel city mom, if anyone took away liberities it was Bush with the Patriot act.

theplatypus
03-21-2010, 06:23 PM
If you want me to be perfectly honest (and a little bit politically incorrect), there's one huge reason this nation will never be taken over by a bloodthirsty, genocidal regime...and that reason is hillbillies. I grew up around enough of them, and they keep their guns loaded (for a reason).



Hey I take that personally since my guns are loaded, within reach(in two rooms), and I'm not a hillbilly. But if all A are B, then all B are A.

Vincent
03-21-2010, 06:32 PM
great anti abortion article vincent.

"Abortion as holocaust" was but one of more than 10 or so points of the article. To pan the article as "anti abortion" says you didn't bother to read it.

i love how the author speaks out of both sides of their mouth using the same fallacies they call out in the first place.

"The first thing to remember as we approach this issue is that it is a logical fallacy to assert that if Adolf Hitler did or believed x, then x must automatically be bad."

"But it is possible, logically sound, and perfectly fair in some cases to draw a deeper kind of comparison to Hitler. We can assert of someone (if we have the facts to substantiate our claim, of course) that they are morally or politically equivalent- or at least similar- to Hitler because their actions spring from the same ideology and/or tend to produce the same results."

How is this talking out of both sides of his mouth?

i cant remember... was the genocide of the jews legal before hitler seized command? even implying that obama is ordering hundereds of thousands of babies to be destroyed is completely rediculous. :screwy:

Of course it wasn't. That was hitler's policy.

No one implied that bho "ordered" anything. The author noted that bho was "the most extreme pro-abortion candidate ever to seek the office of President of the United States. He was the most extreme pro-abortion member of the United States Senate. Indeed, he was the most extreme pro-abortion legislator ever to serve in either house of the United States Congress." bho voted at every opportunity, no matter how extreme, in favor of abortion.

The author correctly points out that the policies of both facilitate(d) the deaths of innocents on a horrific scale.

GBMelBlount
03-21-2010, 06:36 PM
spit it out mel.

what freedoms and liberties has obama taken away from you? infact, never mind. its just as senseless to allow you to hijack this thread along with the silly notion that along with your liberties, he is also stealing 50% of your income.

In his first year of office he has taken our national debt to a level that was unthinkable until recently and may break the back of our country..

He has shackled our country with debts that will be worked off by our children and grandchildren. Freedom & liberty, right?

How do you feel about that Tony?

Leftoverhard
03-21-2010, 06:41 PM
In other news...

Hitler mustache compared to a Milk mustache...

http://www.insidesocal.com/godblog/Hitler.JPGhttp://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o219/arkanthill/for_blog/hulk_got_milk.jpg

"It's like a Hitler mustache, but white - they must be commies!" A tea party protester yelled. Soon the entire crowd was chanting the extremely catchy slogan over and over. The scene was electric (and extremely weird) as teabaggers stormed the capital demanding that anyone ever caught or rumored to be wearing a milk mustache be exiled to a commie country like Canada or England. The liberal media decided to call it "The White Scare"

SteelCityMom
03-21-2010, 06:49 PM
Hey I take that personally since my guns are loaded, within reach(in two rooms), and I'm not a hillbilly. But if all A are B, then all B are A.


:chuckle: I know, mine are too. Hey, I said it was politically incorrect didn't i?

It was kind of a joke anyway (kind of), but there's no shaking the fact that there are a LOT of hillbillies and rednecks in this country, and they like their guns!

Vincent
03-21-2010, 07:08 PM
He's PRO-CHOICE...learn the difference.

Anybody that votes in support of partial birth abortion is pro-abortion. There is no justification for that "procedure".

"When asked whether Mr. Holdren's thoughts on population control have changed over the years, his staff gave The Washington Times a statement that said, "This material is from a three-decade-old, three-author college textbook. Dr. Holdren addressed this issue during his confirmation when he said he does not believe that determining optimal population is a proper role of government. Dr. Holdren is not and never has been an advocate for policies of forced sterilization."

He wrote what he wrote because he believes it. Holdren and anybody else seeking confirmation will say anything, and I mean anything, to be confirmed.

Obviously nothing anyone says is going to deter you from comparing Obama to Hitler...and that's fine I guess, that's your opinion on the matter. I've already stated my opinion on it as well. In 2 years (most likely) you won't have to worry about it anymore...there will be a whole new president (most likely Republican) that everyone can B&M about. Just know that these comparisons do absolutely no good whatsoever. The best we can all do as Americans is cast our votes and get some of these looneys out of Congress (where the REAL problem is), write our local reps and make our voices heard. As GoSlash mentioned, these comparisons of Hitler to Obama are doing nothing but deterring people from seriously looking into the issues at hand.

I believe what I believe for the reasons I have and so do you. And I agree that the solution is the vote. I have hope (yeah, hopey changey) that the house and senate will be vacated of the lunatic left in November leaving the little lame duck nazi to stew in his own juices. :chuckle:

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 07:11 PM
In his first year of office he has taken our national debt to a level that was unthinkable until recently and may break the back of our country..

He has shackled our country with debts that will be worked off by our children and grandchildren. Freedom & liberty, right?

How do you feel about that Tony?i still feel that you are dodging the question and refuse to own your comments and original premise that bho has taken away your freedoms and liberties.

i am also trying to wrap my head around the reason why so many of your posts directed towards me are edited soon after i answer them (is there something you are hiding, changing, or covering up)?

as for the propoganda and rhetoric you spew above, this nation has been shackled by medicare and SS payments for years. it is only gonna get worse (thanks to all the baby boomers soon to cash in) and everybody knows this.

dont act like it is obamas fault.

again... what personal freedoms and liberties has obama taken away from you in the last year? :coffee:

Vincent
03-21-2010, 07:12 PM
In other news...

Hitler mustache compared to a Milk mustache...

http://www.insidesocal.com/godblog/Hitler.JPGhttp://i121.photobucket.com/albums/o219/arkanthill/for_blog/hulk_got_milk.jpg

"It's like a Hitler mustache, but white - they must be commies!" A tea party protester yelled. Soon the entire crowd was chanting the extremely catchy slogan over and over. The scene was electric (and extremely weird) as teabaggers stormed the capital demanding that anyone ever caught or rumored to be wearing a milk mustache be exiled to a commie country like Canada or England. The liberal media decided to call it "The White Scare"

Good one Lefty!

tony hipchest
03-21-2010, 07:16 PM
I have hope (yeah, hopey changey) that the house and senate will be vacated of the lunatic left in November leaving the little lame duck nazi to stew in his own juices. :chuckle:

mmmm.... czerninia (polish duck blood soup) :yummy:

i think alot of my people would like stewed nazi, too. (not to eat though... just boiled).

SteelCityMom
03-21-2010, 07:24 PM
Anybody that votes in support of partial birth abortion is pro-abortion. There is no justification for that "procedure".

That's your OPINION on the matter. And you've drastically twisted what Obama has said about the issue.

"In 1997, Obama voted against SB 230, which would have turned doctors into felons by banning so-called partial-birth abortion, & against a 2000 bill banning state funding. Although these bills included an exception to save the life of the mother, they didn’t include anything about abortions necessary to protect the health of the mother. The legislation defined a fetus as a person, & could have criminalized virtually all abortion." Source: The Improbable Quest, by John K. Wilson, p.147-148 Oct 30, 2007

Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion
Q: What us your view on the decision on partial-birth abortion and your reaction to most of the public agreeing with the court’s holding?

A: I think that most Americans recognize that this is a profoundly difficult issue for the women and families who make these decisions. They don’t make them casually. And I trust women to make these decisions in conjunction with their doctors and their families and their clergy. And I think that’s where most Americans are. Now, when you describe a specific procedure that accounts for less than 1% of the abortions that take place, then naturally, people get concerned, and I think legitimately so. But the broader issue here is: Do women have the right to make these profoundly difficult decisions? And I trust them to do it. There is a broader issue: Can we move past some of the debates around which we disagree and can we start talking about the things we do agree on? Reducing teen pregnancy; making it less likely for women to find themselves in these circumstances.
Source: 2007 South Carolina Democratic primary debate, on MSNBC Apr 26, 2007

It's not as cut and dry as you'd like to make it.



He wrote what he wrote because he believes it. Holdren and anybody else seeking confirmation will say anything, and I mean anything, to be confirmed.

This is more opinion. How do you know? Don't people have the right to change their philosophies in a 30+ year time span? You also didn't answer my question about Clinton...was he the second coming of Hitler too when he put this guy on his staff for roughly 7 years?



I believe what I believe for the reasons I have and so do you. And I agree that the solution is the vote. I have hope (yeah, hopey changey) that the house and senate will be vacated of the lunatic left in November leaving the little lame duck nazi to stew in his own juices. :chuckle:

I probably have less hope than you do, because in my eyes the Republicans are no better than the Dems. I've heard you say you hate politicians, and I do as well (for the most part)...at least we have that in common lol. :drink:

Vincent
03-21-2010, 07:39 PM
mmmm.... czerninia (polish duck blood soup) :yummy:

i think alot of my people would like stewed nazi, too. (not to eat though... just boiled).

Try them with spaetzle or a kartoffelsalat. Prächtig!!

Vincent
03-21-2010, 07:42 PM
I probably have less hope than you do, because in my eyes the Republicans are no better than the Dems. I've heard you say you hate politicians, and I do as well (for the most part)...at least we have that in common lol. :drink:

I think we agree on the fortunes of elephant leadership. As I said elsewhere, they couldn't find their asses with both hands, a flashlight, a map, and a support group. :drink: