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Venom
03-25-2010, 12:28 PM
IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD LABOR.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM AGAIN.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.
.
IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET :
.
* A JOB,
* A DRIVERS LICENSE,
* SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
* WELFARE,
* FOOD STAMPS,
* CREDIT CARDS,
* SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
* FREE EDUCATION,
* FREE HEALTH CARE,
* A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
* BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
* THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRYS FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DONT GET ENOUGH RESPECT :noidea:

steelax04
03-25-2010, 12:34 PM
I think you're pretty much spot on...

ricardisimo
03-25-2010, 01:21 PM
So, you are suggesting that it would behoove us to emulate Cuba, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. in our border policy. I take it that you are a big fan of those wonderful nations. Yes?

P.S. - Is there anything quite like the ALL CAPS BOLD to tell you that someone copied and pasted from a mass-mailing from one of their religious Right contacts? My aunt on the lunatic fringe of the Catholic Church (think Opus Dei) sends me this stuff all of the time - all bold, all caps, all the time. Never fails. That makes your arguments stronger, don't you know?

X-Terminator
03-25-2010, 01:30 PM
Looks like a chain letter to me.

We don't need to emulate those other countries, but we shouldn't be giving illegals all of the benefits that many American citizens can't get either. What they should be getting is an all-expenses paid trip back home, and I ain't talking about some ranch hand's land in Texas or New Mexico either. If they want to be Americans, do it legally.

Bottom line is our borders are too open, and it's time to start playing hardball.

SteelCityMom
03-25-2010, 01:34 PM
So, you are suggesting that it would behoove us to emulate Cuba, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. in our border policy. I take it that you are a big fan of those wonderful nations. Yes?

I certainly don't think it would be right to follow in those nations border policies at all...but there has to be some kind of limit to what illegal immigrants can do here.

I'm all for people from other countries coming here and wanting to make a new and better life for themselves...even if that means sending home money to their families in other countries. I just want them to do it legally and have to pay taxes like the rest of us. I don't think it's right that many illegals are coming here and getting a free ride. It's a slap in the face to immigrants who have gone through the proper steps to become Americans and are hardworking taxpayers and it's a slap in the face to the rest of us who have been here all our lives and have to pay taxes for them. There has to be some sort of middle ground between shooting them at the border and giving them a free ride.

MACH1
03-25-2010, 01:34 PM
Add a free lawyer and the American Constitution rights to that list.

Venom
03-25-2010, 01:35 PM
YES I LIKE ALL CAPS . THANKS FOR NOTICING . HAVE A GREAT DAY

Venom
03-25-2010, 01:38 PM
Its hard to secure the borders . If you do , you will be considered Anti-Latino . If that happens , you lose all your Spanish votes.

SCSTILLER
03-25-2010, 02:05 PM
Yep, our border policy is an absolute joke. I say you show up to the emergency room and aren't a citizen, you get treated and ICE or the INS escorts you out of the hospital. Like SteelCityMom said, I am all for you coming here, LEGALLY, if you are here illegally, you get a one way ticket home (we might even land the airplane for you to let you out - just kidding). Before you can become a citizen, you must be able to hold a basic understanding of English. It is absolutely ridiculous the amounts of illegals in this country, and it needs to stop. I would love to know how many tax dollars are wasted yearly on giving these criminals social services.

I know, I have heard the argument before, we are all immigrants. Yes we are, and my ancestors came through Ellis Island and became citizens legally.

PS: I THINK CAPS AND BOLD ARE NEAT

Godfather
03-25-2010, 02:22 PM
Its hard to secure the borders . If you do , you will be considered Anti-Latino . If that happens , you lose all your Spanish votes.

Not necessarily. Think about all the red tape and expense you have to go through to immigrate legally. How do you think people who did it the right way (and pay taxes) feel about someone cutting corners, taking cash under the table, getting free stuff, etc?

You also have to remember that Hispanics aren't a monolith. There are a lot of different ethnicities that fall under that category and they don't all like each other.

St33lersguy
03-25-2010, 02:26 PM
All coming the hard earned money of those who are here illegally. That's the problem with democrats & fake rino republicans

Venom
03-25-2010, 02:30 PM
Thanks alot SCSTILLER

ricardisimo
03-25-2010, 04:41 PM
Free ride, huh? I can always tell who it is that has absolutely no dealings with immigrants, because of views like this. All you have to do is take a drive through San Joaquin Valley here in California to see what a "free ride" Latino immigrants get in this country. It's easy to pass judgment when you don't know who or what you're talking about.

Anyhow, I would think it would be the easiest thing in the world to view that list of nations and to say to oneself "I think we'll do it differently."

fansince'76
03-25-2010, 05:23 PM
Free ride, huh? I can always tell who it is that has absolutely no dealings with immigrants, because of views like this. All you have to do is take a drive through San Joaquin Valley here in California to see what a "free ride" Latino immigrants get in this country.

Breaks my heart. :violin:

You a "coyote?"

SteelCityMom
03-25-2010, 05:37 PM
Free ride, huh? I can always tell who it is that has absolutely no dealings with immigrants, because of views like this. All you have to do is take a drive through San Joaquin Valley here in California to see what a "free ride" Latino immigrants get in this country. It's easy to pass judgment when you don't know who or what you're talking about.

Anyhow, I would think it would be the easiest thing in the world to view that list of nations and to say to oneself "I think we'll do it differently."

You obviously took what I said the wrong way, or didn't read all that I posted. I DO NOT think that all immigrants come here to get a free ride. Some do though, and it's a slap in the face to the ones who come here and go through the legal process of becoming a citizen and bettering their lives.

I also know that many illegals work very, very hard...but there still has to be some way to make sure that they have the chance to be here legally. I'm all for hard work, I've worked hard since I was 14...I've also had to pay taxes since I was 16. I don't think it's right that employers are paying illegals dirt wages to work their tails off and I don't think it's right that it's far too easy to allow illegals into this country. Please don't confuse that with me passing judgement on what they are working for.

SCSTILLER
03-25-2010, 05:42 PM
Free ride, huh? I can always tell who it is that has absolutely no dealings with immigrants, because of views like this. All you have to do is take a drive through San Joaquin Valley here in California to see what a "free ride" Latino immigrants get in this country. It's easy to pass judgment when you don't know who or what you're talking about.

Anyhow, I would think it would be the easiest thing in the world to view that list of nations and to say to oneself "I think we'll do it differently."

They here legally?

stillers4me
03-25-2010, 05:48 PM
I can't even read what he wrote. We are people all of a sudden making their posts smaller?

tony hipchest
03-25-2010, 06:03 PM
according to the list, it seems there are some aspects of communism and dictatorships venom really loves. i wonder if all uber right wingers feel the same.

You obviously took what I said the wrong way, or didn't read all that I posted. I DO NOT think that all immigrants come here to get a free ride. Some do though, and it's a slap in the face to the ones who come here and go through the legal process of becoming a citizen and bettering their lives.

I also know that many illegals work very, very hard...but there still has to be some way to make sure that they have the chance to be here legally. I'm all for hard work, I've worked hard since I was 14...I've also had to pay taxes since I was 16. I don't think it's right that employers are paying illegals dirt wages to work their tails off and I don't think it's right that it's far too easy to allow illegals into this country. Please don't confuse that with me passing judgement on what they are working for.things have changed alot since 9-11 with e-verify and all the penalties faced with i-9 verification violations, but for many years a ton of illegals were on legitimate payrolls with all the typical taxes being deducted. of course the illegals would never be able to cash in on SS or medicare benefits, because they didnt have a social.

i know its hard for some to believe or admit, but there are illegals who worked legitimate jobs for legitimate employers and paid into the system. :noidea:

ricardisimo
03-25-2010, 06:12 PM
You obviously took what I said the wrong way, or didn't read all that I posted. I DO NOT think that all immigrants come here to get a free ride. Some do though, and it's a slap in the face to the ones who come here and go through the legal process of becoming a citizen and bettering their lives.

I also know that many illegals work very, very hard...but there still has to be some way to make sure that they have the chance to be here legally. I'm all for hard work, I've worked hard since I was 14...I've also had to pay taxes since I was 16. I don't think it's right that employers are paying illegals dirt wages to work their tails off and I don't think it's right that it's far too easy to allow illegals into this country. Please don't confuse that with me passing judgement on what they are working for.

Actually, I wasn't responding to you, although I just realized that you were the one who actually used the phrase "free ride". Sorry for the confusion.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: rich people get a free ride, period. It doesn't matter if they are here with or without papers. Everyone else works, including you and I.

NJarhead
03-25-2010, 06:14 PM
Actually, I wasn't responding to you, although I just realized that you were the one who actually used the phrase "free ride". Sorry for the confusion.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: rich people get a free ride, period. It doesn't matter if they are here with or without papers. Everyone else works, including you and I.

Oh yea? Well you're from Lalaland, so what do YOU know? :chuckle: :wink02:

:drink:

ricardisimo
03-25-2010, 06:14 PM
Breaks my heart. :violin:

You a "coyote?"

Of course. What other interest could I possibly have? Did you think I was a conservative who cared about individual liberties? Pshaw!

SteelCityMom
03-25-2010, 06:18 PM
according to the list, it seems there are some aspects of communism and dictatorships venom really loves. i wonder if all uber right wingers feel the same.

things have changed alot since 9-11 with e-verify and all the penalties faced with i-9 verification violations, but for many years a ton of illegals were on legitimate payrolls with all the typical taxes being deducted. of course the illegals would never be able to cash in on SS or medicare benefits, because they didnt have a social.

i know its hard for some to believe or admit, but there are illegals who worked legitimate jobs for legitimate employers and paid into the system. :noidea:


Oh I know there are. And believe me, I have a ton of respect for anyone who works long, hard hours...dirt pay or not, illegal or not. I did not know though that there were many who did actually pay into the system. If they did, I can come to terms with that. I do still question though if they paid ALL the same taxes that full citizens do.

I do know that there are many illegals working for shit wages though, and that I do not agree with. Whether it's any worse since 9/11 or not is irrelevant to me. My fundamental belief that immigrants coming into this country should be controlled more efficiently will not change. Do I want it to be a scenario where we hang illegals? Absolutely not, but from what I've gathered, this is the easiest country in the world to immigrate to and not have to pay taxes if you play your cards right. That I do not agree with at all.

SteelCityMom
03-25-2010, 06:25 PM
Actually, I wasn't responding to you, although I just realized that you were the one who actually used the phrase "free ride". Sorry for the confusion.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: rich people get a free ride, period. It doesn't matter if they are here with or without papers. Everyone else works, including you and I.

No problem...that is why I thought that was a response to what I wrote.

I don't think all rich people get a "free ride" though...some have worked very hard to become rich, and I encourage that. Some people though, like say...Paris Hilton, really have had a free ride though. That's the fault of the parents in my opinion. Coming from where I come from (financially) I wouldn't give my daughter a cent of money (outside of education) that she didn't earn herself.

Rich people DO pay taxes though, and thankfully more often than not, they pay more than us "normal joes" do.

klick81
03-25-2010, 07:38 PM
So, you are suggesting that it would behoove us to emulate Cuba, China, North Korea, Iran, etc. in our border policy. I take it that you are a big fan of those wonderful nations. Yes?

P.S. - Is there anything quite like the ALL CAPS BOLD to tell you that someone copied and pasted from a mass-mailing from one of their religious Right contacts? My aunt on the lunatic fringe of the Catholic Church (think Opus Dei) sends me this stuff all of the time - all bold, all caps, all the time. Never fails. That makes your arguments stronger, don't you know?

This.

SteelersMongol
03-25-2010, 07:52 PM
IF YOU CROSS THE U.S. BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET :
.
* A JOB,
* A DRIVERS LICENSE,
* SOCIAL SECURITY CARD,
* WELFARE,
* FOOD STAMPS,
* CREDIT CARDS,
* SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE,
* FREE EDUCATION,
* FREE HEALTH CARE,
* A LOBBYIST IN WASHINGTON
* BILLIONS OF DOLLARS WORTH OF PUBLIC DOCUMENTS PRINTED IN YOUR LANGUAGE
* THE RIGHT TO CARRY YOUR COUNTRYS FLAG WHILE YOU PROTEST THAT YOU DONT GET ENOUGH RESPECT :noidea:

That's Y V all love the USA. :usa: :wink02: :hug:

Venom
03-26-2010, 06:54 AM
They enter the USA ILLEGALLY - disrespect our laws , nuff said ? To settle this , Im pro- immigration but Im anti -illegal immigration. Get online like everyone else and more power to you . Welcome to the USA .

P.S. I hope I didn't offend anyone here by saying Illegal Immigrants . Next time Ill say Undocumented Workers

Venom
03-26-2010, 07:02 AM
You think Im a liberal who cares more for the Illegals in this country than the Border Patrols ? Look at the great Liberals of the ACLU who rather defend the illegals ( I mean undocumented workers ) than the Border Patrol men/women . God Bless America ! ( Libs , dont call the Aclu cause I said the word God please )

ricardisimo
03-26-2010, 05:29 PM
You think Im a liberal who cares more for the Illegals in this country than the Border Patrols ? Look at the great Liberals of the ACLU who rather defend the illegals ( I mean undocumented workers ) than the Border Patrol men/women . God Bless America ! ( Libs , dont call the Aclu cause I said the word God please )

I didn't realize that the folks in La Migra needed defending, but I'm glad you're on the case! The role of lickspittle is severely under-appreciated in our culture. Someone has to stand up for those in positions of authority. If not you, who? If not now, when?

What? Are we going to leave it to those in power to defend themselves? What sort of anarchist nonsense is that?

MACH1
03-26-2010, 07:19 PM
Oh yea? Well you're from Lalaland, so what do YOU know? :chuckle: :wink02:

:drink:

Isn't that piglosi country.

What if we were to move to mexico, become a mexican citizen, swim back over the river, would I get all the free stuff? Since technically I would be an illegal alien.

Venom
03-26-2010, 07:35 PM
Well Mach1 , if you go to Mexico and DEMAND to be a Mexican citizen by marching in their streets , you will be locked up !! Only in America you can protest that you want rights from a country you have no right to be in .

SteelCityMom
03-26-2010, 07:40 PM
Isn't that piglosi country.

What if we were to move to mexico, become a mexican citizen, swim back over the river, would I get all the free stuff? Since technically I would be an illegal alien.

Haha...I guess if you want to apply for Mexican citizenship you could (you can apply for citizenship in a lot of countries). There is this thing called dual citizenship though, so no...you wouldn't be an illegal alien.

beSteelmyheart
03-26-2010, 08:53 PM
We used to live in a neighborhood with a nearby Mexican population & the impression that I got was that they were/are hard-working, family oriented people. They liked to get together after hours & on weekends just like anyone else & have a good time. It wasn't a good neighborhood & in our 5 years there we had more trouble with white trash than with any other ethnic group. I am sure they have their fair share of problems with crime, etc, but they never bothered us. I think that they might have a better work ethic than many Americans.
I do agree that they DO need to learn our language & the process for them to become nationalized could use an overhaul and so far I don't think anyone has mentioned the corporate factor which encourages the use of illegal laborers because they are cheap but that is another issue.
Also there hasn't been any mention of the countless American citizens who use & abuse our social services!!

steelerohio
03-27-2010, 01:06 AM
I just wish that some of them who so desire to come live in the US would actually take some time to learn the English language. If I was in another country, I would think it be a disrespect to the people of that country that they learn my language so I can go over to their country.

The list is spot on. Mabe heavier fines and penalties for hiring illegals? Though I doubt that would happen for some time now seeing as the possibility of the amnesty is too great.

ricardisimo
03-27-2010, 01:42 AM
Also there hasn't been any mention of the countless American citizens who use & abuse our social services!!

OK... I'll mention them:

Chase
Bank of America
Bear Stearns
WorldCom
Enron
Chrysler
AT&T
Bechtel
Boeing
Lockheed Martin
GE
IBM
Etc., etc....

Leftoverhard
03-27-2010, 02:11 AM
OK... I'll mention them:

Chase
Bank of America
Bear Stearns
WorldCom
Enron
Chrysler
AT&T
Bechtel
Boeing
Lockheed Martin
GE
IBM
Etc., etc....


Nice!

Venom
03-27-2010, 09:03 AM
Does being liberal mean you hate large companies like AT & T, Microsoft, Fed Ex, and Chase (whom provide thousands of jobs to working families), simply because they seek profits? I guess so

chacha
03-27-2010, 09:54 AM
seriously Venom, you dont think some of those companies stepped over the line in ways of making money, just a little bit? :doh:

smokin3000gt
03-27-2010, 10:17 AM
Breaks my heart. :violin:

You a "coyote?"

Nope, just another bleeding heart liberal from the wonderful state of CA. They are the shining example of how to do things. I can't wait for all those kick ass policies and laws that are doing so well over there to be implemented for the rest of the US.

smokin3000gt
03-27-2010, 10:35 AM
Actually, I wasn't responding to you, although I just realized that you were the one who actually used the phrase "free ride". Sorry for the confusion.

Let's make one thing perfectly clear: rich people get a free ride, period. It doesn't matter if they are here with or without papers. Everyone else works, including you and I.


C'mon man.. really? Rich people get a free ride? How do you think they got rich?! Do you think they were assigned to be CEO of a world wide corporation at birth? Do you have ANY idea how much work/stress is involved to climb the latter like that?

Let me tell you something. Being a business owner is RISKY, HARD work, and STRESSFUL and you bet your ass I'm not going to do all that for free! Here's ONE of the things I had to deal with last week. While you were working your 9 - 5, home in time for the Simpsons, I was trying to fish our concrete truck out of the water with Florida Highway Patrol, DOT, EPA, and a handful of other 3 letter organizations on my back looking for a dead turtle.

http://www.marconews.com/photos/galleries/2010/mar/16/cement-truck-crashes-pond-stops-i-75-traffic/

BTW Who do you think creates more jobs, evil rich people or poor people?

stlrtruck
03-27-2010, 12:08 PM
They enter the USA ILLEGALLY - disrespect our laws , nuff said ? To settle this , Im pro- immigration but Im anti -illegal immigration. Get online like everyone else and more power to you . Welcome to the USA .

P.S. I hope I didn't offend anyone here by saying Illegal Immigrants . Next time Ill say Undocumented Workers

What kills me even more about the illegals is that our legal system at times tends to think that these illegals have more rights under our constituion than those of us who are legal citizens of the country.

Either way the illegals are a drain on our system, from the criminals to the "take care of us now" migrant workers.

If anyone in DC gave a rats arse about their constituents, then they would have truly overhauled healthcare for those who need it, they would have listened to those that vote (not the ones that will be able to vote if the immigration reform gets pushed through), and they would as eagerly do something about the illegals in the country that doesn't involved giving them amnesty and instant citizenship or access to our social systems enabling them to ride through life with little to no responsibility.

Leftoverhard
03-27-2010, 12:22 PM
Does being conservative mean you hate people simply because they seek a better life? I guess so

:noidea:

ricardisimo
03-27-2010, 02:32 PM
What kills me even more about the illegals is that our legal system at times tends to think that these illegals have more rights under our constituion than those of us who are legal citizens of the country.

Either way the illegals are a drain on our system, from the criminals to the "take care of us now" migrant workers.

If anyone in DC gave a rats arse about their constituents, then they would have truly overhauled healthcare for those who need it, they would have listened to those that vote (not the ones that will be able to vote if the immigration reform gets pushed through), and they would as eagerly do something about the illegals in the country that doesn't involved giving them amnesty and instant citizenship or access to our social systems enabling them to ride through life with little to no responsibility.

Firstly, prioritizing criminality among migrant workers above corporate crimes is simply absurd. It's like blaming low air in your tires for the smoke coming out of your tailpipe.

Secondly, getting everyone covered benefits everyone, particularly when we're talking about the people picking the fruits and vegetables that you and your kids are eating.

Thirdly, neither the Democrats nor the Republicans have any interest in universal coverage; that was a popular desire, and the two parties have no interest in populism. So, you needn't worry about undocumented workers somehow now having better benefits than you and I. Didn't happen, and it ain't gonna happen.

ricardisimo
03-27-2010, 02:36 PM
Does being liberal mean you hate large companies like AT & T, Microsoft, Fed Ex, and Chase (whom provide thousands of jobs to working families), simply because they seek profits? I guess so

Being anti-corporate has nothing to do with my opinion on business. I submit that it is absolutely impossible to be both pro-business and pro-corporate. I'll refer you to Adam Smith (http://www.bibliomania.com/2/1/65/112/frameset.html) for an explanation on that topic.

smokin: this reply is for you as well.

tony hipchest
03-27-2010, 10:01 PM
[/B]

C'mon man.. really? Rich people get a free ride? How do you think they got rich?! Do you think they were assigned to be CEO of a world wide corporation at birth? Do you have ANY idea how much work/stress is involved to climb the latter like that?paris hilton and her work/stress is a perfect example of this. i guess it is important to differentiate "new money" vs "old money" and who is self made vs. all those who are born with a silver spoon.

BTW Who do you think creates more jobs, evil rich people or poor peoplewho do you think does all the labor? kind hearted rich people who flip billions of burgers for mcdonalds? or the evil scum, poor people.

i wonder where sam walton of wal-mart would be w/o all the poor people he employed.

i wonder how nike would be doing w/o all the sweatshop slave labor of the poor it employs.

yes the rich people create the jobs. but the labor creates the product. kind of a symbiotic relationship, wouldnt you say?

silver & black
03-28-2010, 08:51 AM
yes the rich people create the jobs. but the labor creates the product. kind of a symbiotic relationship, wouldnt you say?

I would most definitely agree. I'm one of the "laborers" that produces the product for the rich owner of the company I work for. There is no way he would have a product to sell, if not for me and others like me... skilled tradesmen. We are not easily replaced, but you'd never know it by the way we are treated and paid.

I see I've taken this thread in the wrong direction... sorry. Your post struck a nerve and I just pounced...LOL.

smokin3000gt
03-28-2010, 02:32 PM
paris hilton and her work/stress is a perfect example of this. i guess it is important to differentiate "new money" vs "old money" and who is self made vs. all those who are born with a silver spoon.
I agree. paris hilton is a joke of a person and human being and if the Gov. wanted to tax her into poverty my heart wouldn't bleed as she has never put her blood, sweat, or tears into anything

Yes, self made and silver spoon are two completely different things but it seems that they often get lumped together as rich evil doers. Make money during the day, then at night they put on a mask and eat babies at night.


who do you think does all the labor? kind hearted rich people who flip billions of burgers for mcdonalds? or the evil scum, poor people. The people who WORK. Not the ones sitting at home, collecting checks, not looking for a job and getting everything they are 'entitled' to.

i wonder where sam walton of wal-mart would be w/o all the poor people he employed.Many, many cars and houses have been bought because of paychecks earned through walmart. If walmart were to close up shop tomorrow, would that hurt or help the people involved or the economy?

i wonder how nike would be doing w/o all the sweatshop slave labor of the poor it employs.

yes the rich people create the jobs. but the labor creates the product. kind of a symbiotic relationship, wouldnt you say?

I would say but I don't see what this argument has to do with anything since the laborers are not the ones being crucified and taxed to death right now. It's not as if they do the work for a sense of feeling good about themselves. They do it to get paid, and to hopefully move up in the company. They provide a service, and they get compensated for it. If they feel they aren't compensated enough, then they have the freedom to work for the competition. Obviously it goes hand in hand and one couldn't do it without the other.

My point is for a business to expand, grow, and add jobs it takes a person or business with money. When we started out business we had 1 concrete truck. It took a lot of time, money, stress, effort and dare I say balls to expand to 12 trucks. Once we did, we were able to provide jobs to 11 other drivers, a loader man, full time mechanic, dispatcher, yard guy, book keeper, and office manager. If we are taxed to death and have no money to expand, that's 18 unemployment checks our government would have to send out and perhaps a few more mortgages/cars being defaulted on.

Businesses HAVE to make money. If they don't make money and hit a bad month, bad year, or a lawsuit... POOF! It's all gone.

Abe Lincoln said it best "You can't make a weak man strong by making a strong man weak"

The argument isn't Business/Employer vs Employee/laborer. It's People who work for what they have (those well of and laborers alike) vs the people who don't.

Everyone one of us here works hard for what we have. Don't you think everyone else should to?


Anyways, Sorry Venom. We got WAAAYYYY off topic here.

smokin3000gt
03-28-2010, 02:34 PM
I would most definitely agree. I'm one of the "laborers" that produces the product for the rich owner of the company I work for. There is no way he would have a product to sell, if not for me and others like me... skilled tradesmen. We are not easily replaced, but you'd never know it by the way we are treated and paid.

I see I've taken this thread in the wrong direction... sorry. Your post struck a nerve and I just pounced...LOL.

If you are treated and paid poorly then A) Work for his competition or B) Start your own business doing what your doing anyways. Then YOU reap the rewards but you have to be willing to accept the risk and consequences of venturing out on your own for something better. (90% of new business go belly up in the first year and the rest don't see a profit for five years)

tony hipchest
03-28-2010, 02:52 PM
I would say but I don't see what this argument has to do with anything since the laborers are not the ones being crucified and taxed to death right now.

.

im sorry you feel that way but i understand.

from a personal point of view, i have never witnessed a crucifixion in the United States. I have also never heard or rich people being killed by taxes (although i have heard of those that kill themselves when busted for fraud or no longer able to maintain their lofty lifestyles). the only ones i really have heard refer to capitalist america as the evil devil are the exremist islamics. :hunch:

however i have witnessed, poor, homeless, disabled veterans rotting away 9and sometimes dead) on the streets.

It's not as if they do the work for a sense of feeling good about themselves. They do it to get paid, and to hopefully move up in the company

i have about 30 employees who are disabled and could easilly live off welfare or social security who would beg to differ with you.

i interviewed a disable veteran for an administrative assistant position just last week who is going stir crazy being a housewife, wants to put her skills to use, and re-gain that sense of contribution and self worth.

money and climbing the corporate ladder are not an issue or priority with her. :noidea:

smokin3000gt
03-28-2010, 03:32 PM
im sorry you feel that way but i understand.

from a personal point of view, i have never witnessed a crucifixion in the United States. I have also never heard or rich people being killed by taxes (although i have heard of those that kill themselves when busted for fraud or no longer able to maintain their lofty lifestyles). the only ones i really have heard refer to capitalist america as the evil devil are the exremist islamics. :hunch:

however i have witnessed, poor, homeless, disabled veterans rotting away 9and sometimes dead) on the streets.



i have about 30 employees who are disabled and could easilly live off welfare or social security who would beg to differ with you.

i interviewed a disable veteran for an administrative assistant position just last week who is going stir crazy being a housewife, wants to put her skills to use, and re-gain that sense of contribution and self worth.

money and climbing the corporate ladder are not an issue or priority with her. :noidea:

Tony, I applaud those people. THAT is what America is about! :hatsoff: Unfortunately they are the exception, and not the majority.

As far as never witnessing a crucifixion in the US.. You're right. No one is being burned alive in the streets. It all happens behind the scenes. Something that most people don't see or have any idea about. Money gets pissed away through the government (both administrations alike) and when they need more they come straight for the working class because everyone knows you can't get blood from a stone.

A quick example.. besides paying a huge amount of road taxes & even more taxes through diesel fuel, registration for each truck ran about $800/truck each year. That's about $9,600/year. Kinda sucks but palatable. Now Florida needs more revenue because it all got pissed away, registration jumped to almost $2,000 PER truck.. That's almost $24,000 we have to pay in CASH just to register the trucks and put them on the road each year. The money has to come from somewhere, and we don't have that kind of money so we only registered 5 trucks for 10k. The other trucks we parked and had to lay off those drivers for now. Only God knows what will happen when we have to pay for emissions and other taxes/expenses that will occur when cap and trade and/or healthcare take effect. That is us getting killed by taxes. All I am saying is that the money has to come from somewhere and when it does, EVERYONE is affected.

Again, hats off to those you mentioned who refuse to let circumstance dictate their lives!! :applaudit:

chacha
03-28-2010, 03:36 PM
If you are treated and paid poorly then A) Work for his competition or B) Start your own business doing what your doing anyways. Then YOU reap the rewards.

What a great idea! Everyone should start their own business! It's so easy, I dont know why more people dont do it!

PS how's the weather on Fantasy Island? :chuckle:

smokin3000gt
03-28-2010, 03:51 PM
What a great idea! Everyone should start their own business! It's so easy, I dont know why more people dont do it!

PS how's the weather on Fantasy Island? :chuckle:

If it's not that easy, then why shouldn't those who do make a profit?

chacha
03-28-2010, 04:30 PM
So if you dont think it's easy why suggest it in the first place?, And of course a person should make a profit :doh:, but there's a profit and then there's just sucking the blood out of the employees.

MACH1
03-28-2010, 05:06 PM
What a great idea! Everyone should start their own business! It's so easy, I dont know why more people dont do it!

PS how's the weather on Fantasy Island? :chuckle:

No ones going to come along and hand you one. You might find out you actually have to get of your lazy ass and work for it. Have the ambition and want too, to make it happen. Nobody has handed me anything that I've work hard for, and yes I expect to reap the reward for my hard work, not give it away to the freeloaders.

smokin3000gt
03-28-2010, 05:16 PM
So if you dont think it's easy why suggest it in the first place?, And of course a person should make a profit :doh:,

So because it's not easy it shouldn't be suggested or attempted? I'm not sure I understand or agree with your logic.

but there's a profit and then there's just sucking the blood out of the employees.

Which goes back to my previous statement. If you are working for a company that you feel is 'sucking the blood out of it's employees' then you don't have to stay there.


We treat our employees top notch because they are. We don't want them to leave, and we especially don't want them working for our competition!

If the company really is treating someone that bad, maybe it's because their stock isn't as high as they think it is. Or the boss knows about the hours of youtube being watched on company time and/or company truck/gas card being mostly utilized on the weekends running personal errands.

We hired a guy to take over operations for the contracting side. Every week since he took over put the business 5k in the red. Would you believe $1500/week he was getting to run the business in the ground wasn't enough? After losing 10's of thousands of dollars, would you believe he had the balls to want more money? He wanted $2,000-2500/week and was livid when he didn't get it! We ended up getting rid of him and liquidating all the assets to recoup the losses.

Businesses hang on to and take care of key people. If someone wants to be that key person then make yourself that key person. That means you (not you) might have to work a little harder, and do more than the minimum. Dime a dozen people who do bare minimum are just that and get treated as such. Even if they think their entitled to more money, all the benefits, and more paid time off.


edit: I was over at money.cnn.com and stumbled on this article that hits a few good points: http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/26/smallbusiness/employee_costs/index.htm

silver & black
03-28-2010, 05:44 PM
If you are treated and paid poorly then A) Work for his competition or B) Start your own business doing what your doing anyways. Then YOU reap the rewards but you have to be willing to accept the risk and consequences of venturing out on your own for something better. (90% of new business go belly up in the first year and the rest don't see a profit for five years)

No offense, but I get the impression that you are fairly young. "His competition" is an hour drive from where I live... not feasable considering the Winters we have in Ohio.... nor do I want to commute that distance. I'm 50 years old.. I don't want to start over somewhere else, at this point in my life. I've been with the company for 23 years; I'm an integral part of the reason it has been successfull. I shouldn't be treated like a piece of meat that is only there to serve the whims of management (idiots)... I've been a good, loyal employee... I deserve better. At some point in your life, I'm sure you will be able to understand where I'm coming from. Untill then... please refrain from giving me job advice.

silver & black
03-28-2010, 05:53 PM
We treat our employees top notch because they are. We don't want them to leave, and we especially don't want them working for our competition!

If every company did this, there would be no rift between management and "labor". The company I work for used to be this way... then, the founder died, and the son took over. Now, we have a pompous, arrogant, self importent Operations Manager that is trying to go all Corporate America on us. Guess who's paying the price?

MACH1
03-28-2010, 06:10 PM
If every company did this, there would be no rift between management and "labor". The company I work for used to be this way... then, the founder died, and the son took over. Now, we have a pompous, arrogant, self importent Operations Manager that is trying to go all Corporate America on us. Guess who's paying the price?

I used to work for a company like that, cept the old man retired and let his POS son attempt to run the place. He is a pompous, arrogant, self important, walking, talking dick with ears. I was still in my twenties at the time and had 8 yrs in, but the gettin out was good. Last day I worked was the day of the Christmas party when the douche gave his company speech and told everybody they we were a "bunch of low life scum and he knows everyone of us are stealing from the company" and "we were lucky to be working and especially be working for him" and a few more choice words. All in front of wife's, husbands and children of the employees. I got up from the table and left with about half of the other employees behind me.

silver & black
03-28-2010, 06:24 PM
I used to work for a company like that, cept the old man retired and let his POS son attempt to run the place. He is a pompous, arrogant, self important, walking, talking dick with ears. I was still in my twenties at the time and had 8 yrs in, but the gettin out was good. Last day I worked was the day of the Christmas party when the douche gave his company speech and told everybody they we were a "bunch of low life scum and he knows everyone of us are stealing from the company" and "we were lucky to be working and especially be working for him" and a few more choice words. All in front of wife's, husbands and children of the employees. I got up from the table and left with about half of the other employees behind me.

It isn't quite that bad... yet. We get the "you are all so importent to our succsess" speech every year... then he jets off around the world with his family, leaving the giant douche bag in charge of everything. I hate this guy so bad; if he were on fire, I wouldn't piss on him to put it out.

smokin3000gt
03-28-2010, 06:29 PM
No offense, but I get the impression that you are fairly young. "His competition" is an hour drive from where I live... not feasable considering the Winters we have in Ohio.... nor do I want to commute that distance. I'm 50 years old.. I don't want to start over somewhere else, at this point in my life. I've been with the company for 23 years; I'm an integral part of the reason it has been successfull. I shouldn't be treated like a piece of meat that is only there to serve the whims of management (idiots)... I've been a good, loyal employee... I deserve better. At some point in your life, I'm sure you will be able to understand where I'm coming from. Untill then... please refrain from giving me job advice.


My comments were made towards those who do the bare minimum to get by and cry for more. It's obvious you are not one of those people and are in a different situation entirely. I would be upset as well. My apologies if I offended you. :drink:

tony hipchest
03-28-2010, 06:31 PM
i had a dickhead former boss, too, who had become a millionaire offa govt contracts. he didnt give the employees their raise for 3 years (this is money that the govt had appropriated in their funds according to the wage determination scale for federal govt contracts.)

his reasonning was that janitors dont deserve to make that much money. (this was back in 2003 when their hourly wage and health ane welfare benefits package should have totaled $7.21/ hour).

oh, he also suspended me for 2 weeks for getting in an accident with a 20 year old van with glazed brakes that hadnt been in for maintenance and repairs in 5 years. i also rebuilt and repaired over 500 vacuums back when a small appliance electician made much more than our mgmt. but this was back when all govt contracts always went to the cheapest bidder.

things have changed a bit since then, and am lucky to catch on with a much more professional company.

while all rich job providers arent evil, to paint them as saints is completely bogus.

steeldawg
03-28-2010, 06:36 PM
Look you can demonize corporations all you want but the fact of the matter is they provide jobs for millions probably billions of people around the world. The american people should assume alot of the responsiblity for these reductions in payroll and low wages. We are one the largest industrialized countries in the world yet we dont make any of our own products everything is outsourced overseas. Why you ask? well its simple the american people want to make a certain wage and would never work for the wages that are paid overseas (which is fair) however the american people want to pay dirt cheap prices for everything, making it impossible for companies to manufacture goods in this country or pay workers decent salaries. So while your shopping at a store and you are standing in line with your 40% off coupon holding your item thats reduced 50% probably complaining that there is only one cashier working, remember that corporation is giving you what you want but it comes with a price.

fansince'76
03-28-2010, 06:39 PM
while all rich job providers arent evil, to paint them as saints is completely bogus.

And painting them all as "Simon Legree" is equally bogus.

silver & black
03-28-2010, 07:51 PM
My comments were made towards those who do the bare minimum to get by and cry for more. It's obvious you are not one of those people and are in a different situation entirely. I would be upset as well. My apologies if I offended you. :drink:

Naw... not offended. I probably jumped the gun on you. I've had to put up with a lot crap from young guys lately that think they know what it's all about. I must be getting old... I sound like my dad...lol. No hard feelings at all. :drink: