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GBMelBlount
04-09-2010, 07:26 AM
Not sure if this has been a thread topic before...

This is an old investor's business daily article. Just wondering if anyone has some thoughts on how Obamacare, in it's current form, could affect the number of doctors who will retire early.


45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul

By TERRY JONES, INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY Posted 09/15/2009 07:09 PM ET

IBD Exclusive Series:
Condition Critical: What Doctors Think About Health Reform

Two of every three practicing physicians oppose the medical overhaul plan under consideration in Washington, and hundreds of thousands would think about shutting down their practices or retiring early if it were adopted, a new IBD/TIPP Poll has found.

The poll contradicts the claims of not only the White House, but also doctors' own lobby — the powerful American Medical Association — both of which suggest the medical profession is behind the proposed overhaul.

It also calls into question whether an overhaul is even doable; 72% of the doctors polled disagree with the administration's claim that the government can cover 47 million more people with better-quality care at lower cost.

The IBD/TIPP Poll was conducted by mail the past two weeks, with 1,376 practicing physicians chosen randomly throughout the country taking part. Responses are still coming in, and doctors' positions on related topics — including the impact of an overhaul on senior care, medical school applications and drug development — will be covered later in this series.

Major findings included:

• Two-thirds, or 65%, of doctors say they oppose the proposed government expansion plan. This contradicts the administration's claims that doctors are part of an "unprecedented coalition" supporting a medical overhaul.

It also differs with findings of a poll released Monday by National Public Radio that suggests a "majority of physicians want public and private insurance options," and clashes with media reports such as Tuesday's front-page story in the Los Angeles Times with the headline "Doctors Go For Obama's Reform."

Nowhere in the Times story does it say doctors as a whole back the overhaul. It says only that the AMA — the "association representing the nation's physicians" and what "many still regard as the country's premier lobbying force" — is "lobbying and advertising to win public support for President Obama's sweeping plan."

The AMA, in fact, represents approximately 18% of physicians and has been hit with a number of defections by members opposed to the AMA's support of Democrats' proposed health care overhaul.

Four of nine doctors, or 45%, said they "would consider leaving their practice or taking an early retirement" if Congress passes the plan the Democratic majority and White House have in mind.

More than 800,000 doctors were practicing in 2006, the government says. Projecting the poll's finding onto that population, 360,000 doctors would consider quitting.

http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=506199

MasterOfPuppets
04-09-2010, 08:47 AM
hmmmm ...interesting...so basically what that tells me is only 1 out every 4 doctors are in it because they actually wanna help people and the rest are just after the money....:doh:

fansince'76
04-09-2010, 08:58 AM
hmmmm ...interesting...so basically what that tells me is only 1 out every 4 doctors are in it because they actually wanna help people and the rest are just after the money....:doh:

Yeah, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't be willing to go through 20 years of grueling schooling and training to wind up a couple hundred grand in student loan debt and then be willing to pay exorbitant malpractice premiums to make less than a plumber. What's not to love about that deal? :noidea:

Vincent
04-09-2010, 09:09 AM
2 doctors among my siblings. 2 among nieces and nephews. The former have "had it" and are headed for the exit. The latter, rather than be the surgeons they were trained to be, went directly into research.

Atlas shrugged.

Godfather
04-09-2010, 09:18 AM
hmmmm ...interesting...so basically what that tells me is only 1 out every 4 doctors are in it because they actually wanna help people and the rest are just after the money....:doh:

Well, why don't you go to your boss and offer to take the sane 21% pay cut you feel that doctors deserve? Unless of course you take no pride in your work and are only in it for the money.

MasterOfPuppets
04-09-2010, 09:45 AM
Well, why don't you go to your boss and offer to take the sane 21% pay cut you feel that doctors deserve? Unless of course you take no pride in your work and are only in it for the money.
i'm relatively certain i could adjust if my salary went from 1 mill a year to a measily 800 thou.... :noidea:

i mean it would be tough, have to really tighten that belt...maybe move from a 6 bedroom house to a 4 ... probably have to cut the maid back to 5 days a week....

zulater
04-09-2010, 09:52 AM
Yeah, I can't understand why anyone wouldn't be willing to go through 20 years of grueling schooling and training to wind up a couple hundred grand in student loan debt and then be willing to pay exorbitant malpractice premiums to make less than a plumber. What's not to love about that deal? :noidea:

Bingo! Socialist always want to punish the exceptional, except of course for those in the arts.


I've long sus[pected that by making sure actors, musicians, artists and athletes get to retain a lionshare of their wealth, they ( socialists) keep the support of the sort of prominent people the public looks up to. Thereby when actors, talkshow hosts etc.. talk ill of wealth accrued by businessmen in a free economy the public as a whole is receptive and blames the very people who do the most to create jobs for whatever the days socital problems might be.

Vincent
04-09-2010, 09:58 AM
i'm relatively certain i could adjust if my salary went from 1 mill a year to a measily 800 thou.... :noidea:

I always told my kids, there are several fields you can go into that give you a "shot' at big money. Medicine is one, but like the others, few make the big money.

While it is true that some live comfortably, the popular view that doctors are "fat cats" is ridiculous. Doctors on staff are salaried. Doctors in practice have significant expenses. If one "pulls down" a cool mil, the business overhead, insurance and taxes leave an above average living, but not a rich man's by any stretch of the imagination.

What doctors do to become doctors would and does leave "the average" by the wayside. But we don't want "the average" being our doctors , now do we?

I don't begrudge any doctor what they earn, "earn" being the key word.

Bingo! Socialists always want to punish the exceptional...

As another SFer wisely notes in his signature line, "Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy". And here, "envy" is the operative word.

revefsreleets
04-09-2010, 10:04 AM
I'm not surprised to see overly simplistic opinions emerging in this argument. A lot of people just tend to knee-jerk and say "Oh well, they're rich, screw them!".

I recently read a story about a doctor who had $500,000 in student loans. She's rich, though, so screw her.

Doctors pay truly exorbitant insurance rates trying to stay one-step ahead of ambulance chasing leeching lawyers. But they're rich, so screw 'em!

The government has already woven an incredibly complicated system of oversight and regulation around the health care industry. There's a web of complexity and bureaucratic red-tape that decreases efficiency and drains doctors pockets already, and that's BEFORE this even more complicates bill takes effect. But, hey, they're rich...screw 'em!

Fact is, things disciplines like Family Practice are already on the outs because doctors simply can't make enough money to even cover their costs and overhead. This new bill will cut deeper into the profit margins. It's really very simple. If you MAKE $200,000 a year, but have to pay out $210,000 in overhead and taxes and insurance costs, you, um.....you ain't really rich.

zulater
04-09-2010, 10:08 AM
I always told my kids, there are several fields you can go into that give you a "shot' at big money. Medicine is one, but like the others, few make the big money.

While it is true that some live comfortably, the popular view that doctors are "fat cats" is ridiculous. Doctors on staff are salaried. Doctors in practice have significant expenses. If one "pulls down" a cool mil, the business overhead, insurance and taxes leave an above average living, but not a rich man's by any stretch of the imagination.

What doctors do to become doctors would and does leave "the average" by the wayside. But we don't want "the average" being our doctors , now do we?

I don't begrudge any doctor what they earn, "earn" being the key word.

It never occurs to the lefties that when you destroy discretionary income from the upper middle class and rich that society as a whole suffers and job loss trickles down to the middle class. No one buys boats, goes to expensive restaraunts, goes to vacation resorts, etc.. and you can't understand that working class people are going to be out of jobs?

Vincent
04-09-2010, 10:18 AM
It never occurs to the lefties that when you destroy discretionary income from the upper middle class and rich that society as a whole suffers and job loss trickles down to the middle class. No one buys boats, goes to expensive restaurants, goes to vacation resorts, etc.. and you can't understand that working class people are going to be out of jobs?

Very little "occurs" to the left. When your view of the world is shaped by pathological infantile "victimhood", you're "thinking" can't rise above fear, jealousy, and hatred of those you view as "better off". Regrettably, these creatures are allowed to breed, and as their numbers grow, we are drawn into their abyss.

Godfather
04-09-2010, 10:30 AM
Very little "occurs" to the left. When your view of the world is shaped by pathological infantile "victimhood", you're "thinking" can't rise above fear, jealousy, and hatred of those you view as "better off"

Not just that, but hatred of anyone different from themselves or who doesn't fit their narrow-minded caricatures. See all the lies they told about Palin. Or the way they beat up on plumbers and beauty pageant contestants (the latter for having exactly the same opinion on same sex marriage as their Messiah).

zulater
04-09-2010, 10:37 AM
Not just that, but hatred of anyone different from themselves or who doesn't fit their narrow-minded caricatures. See all the lies they told about Palin. Or the way they beat up on plumbers and beauty pageant contestants (the latter for having exactly the same opinion on same sex marriage as their Messiah).

I know that's been his public position, but I don't believe it for a second.

Vincent
04-09-2010, 10:45 AM
Not just that, but hatred of anyone different from themselves or who doesn't fit their narrow-minded caricatures. See all the lies they told about Palin. Or the way they beat up on plumbers and beauty pageant contestants (the latter for having exactly the same opinion on same sex marriage as their Messiah).

I was trying to be charitable. They're so damn sensitive.

I concur with Zu on the marriage point. bho "values" one thing, and one thing only - his own ill gotten "power". He will say or do anything to keep it.

MACH1
04-09-2010, 11:43 AM
i'm relatively certain i could adjust if my salary went from 1 mill a year to a measily 800 thou.... :noidea:

i mean it would be tough, have to really tighten that belt...maybe move from a 6 bedroom house to a 4 ... probably have to cut the maid back to 5 days a week....

Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

All of these docs still have to buy malpractice insurance, and I can tell ya it ain't cheap. Most of the docs that are going to call it quits are in private practice, which in turn means their taking a huge cut off the overhead of running a business. They still have to buy supplies, make payroll for employees, ect. If they work for a hospital how much of that dr.s fee actually goes to the dr. and how much does the hospital keep. Kinda like a bodyshop that charges $145 for shop labor. I can tell you for a fact that the body man doesn't make $145 an hour, the shop does.

Indo
04-09-2010, 11:45 AM
i'm relatively certain i could adjust if my salary went from 1 mill a year to a measily 800 thou.... :noidea:

You know, I am pretty certain that I would have no problem adjusting if MY salary went from $1M to a measily $800K, too. By why don't you look at this and see what the average doctor's salary is in the US...

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary

From that salary, we (the doctors) have to pay our yearly medical license fees (about $450), our staff fees (yes, you have to PAY to be able to practice at a hospital---about $350), our malpractice insurance (depends on the specialty---for the average general surgeon, $35,000/year), our DEA license fees---$550 every 3 years)...the list goes on and on. And don't forget the med school loans---30-year loans (the interest paid is NOT tax deductible for doctors---the interest for law school loans IS tax deductible)---anywhere from 150k---to who knows. For me personally, about $160,000.

Trust me. We ain't rich.
And, as someone posted, they just decreased reimbursements by 21%

The AMA sucks. It does NOT represent the majority of doctors

Vincent
04-09-2010, 12:00 PM
And don't forget the med school loans---30-year loans (the interest paid is NOT tax deductible for doctors---the interest for law school loans IS tax deductible)...

Huh???!!! How do "they" rationalize deductible school loan interest for @#$%ing lawyers, and not for doctors, I mean aside from the obvious reason? How do you arrive at the conclusion that that makes any sense at all?

We need to gather up our sporting equipment and take back the Republic.

revefsreleets
04-09-2010, 12:08 PM
Huh???!!! How do "they" rationalize deductible school loan interest for @#$%ing lawyers, and not for doctors, I mean aside from the obvious reason? How do you arrive at the conclusion that that makes any sense at all?

We need to gather up our sporting equipment and take back the Republic.

Easy. Lawyers dump in HUGE campaign contributions, particularly to the Democrat party. I read somewhere that 80% of the campaign funding for the Texas Democrats came from lawyers. Wheels that squeaky get a lot of grease...

zulater
04-09-2010, 12:10 PM
Huh???!!! How do "they" rationalize deductible school loan interest for @#$%ing lawyers, and not for doctors, I mean aside from the obvious reason? How do you arrive at the conclusion that that makes any sense at all?

We need to gather up our sporting equipment and take back the Republic.

That''s because more lawyers go into politics than Doctors. Maybe with more of them out of work once Obama care kicks in some of the doctors will go into politics and even things out with the ambulance chasers.

zulater
04-09-2010, 12:11 PM
Easy. Lawyers dump in HUGE campaign contributions, particularly to the Democrat party. I read somewhere that 80% of the campaign funding for the Texas Democrats came from lawyers. Wheels that squeaky get a lot of grease...

That's why you'll never see tort reform attached to health care as long as the Democrats hold the keys.

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-09-2010, 12:13 PM
You know, I am pretty certain that I would have no problem adjusting if MY salary went from $1M to a measily $800K, too. By why don't you look at this and see what the average doctor's salary is in the US...

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary

From that salary, we (the doctors) have to pay our yearly medical license fees (about $450), our staff fees (yes, you have to PAY to be able to practice at a hospital---about $350), our malpractice insurance (depends on the specialty---for the average general surgeon, $35,000/year), our DEA license fees---$550 every 3 years)...the list goes on and on. And don't forget the med school loans---30-year loans (the interest paid is NOT tax deductible for doctors---the interest for law school loans IS tax deductible)---anywhere from 150k---to who knows. For me personally, about $160,000.

Trust me. We ain't rich.
And, as someone posted, they just decreased reimbursements by 21%

The AMA sucks. It does NOT represent the majority of doctors

I have to laugh.

Why is it that those who want to argue HCR...rarely argue with or even respond to Indo? Why ignore the ONE person in this forum who understands the application of the bill better thatn anyone else?

Guess we dont want to cloud the discussion with facts and experience.:noidea:

fansince'76
04-09-2010, 12:21 PM
Why is it that those who want to argue HCR...rarely argue with or even respond to Indo? Why ignore the ONE person in this forum who understands the application of the bill better thatn anyone else?

Indeed, the silence becomes quite deafening in regards to HCR (particularly about how "wonderful" it is) around here once Indo weighs in with his :twocents:, doesn't it? :scratchchin:

tony hipchest
04-09-2010, 12:31 PM
Huh???!!! How do "they" rationalize deductible school loan interest for @#$%ing lawyers, and not for doctors, I mean aside from the obvious reason? How do you arrive at the conclusion that that makes any sense at all?

.FUBAR defined.



Why is it that those who want to argue HCR...rarely argue with or even respond to Indo? Why ignore the ONE person in this forum who understands the application of the bill better thatn anyone else?

because im still waiting for a few scripts in the mail for oxycontin before they reconfigure the time release, to prevent crushing and banging them. :noidea:

dont look a gift"horse" in the mouth.

:laughing: j/k indo

Godfather
04-09-2010, 01:13 PM
I have to laugh.

Why is it that those who want to argue HCR...rarely argue with or even respond to Indo? Why ignore the ONE person in this forum who understands the application of the bill better thatn anyone else?

Guess we dont want to cloud the discussion with facts and experience.:noidea:

Indo left out one of the best parts. This isn't new, but doctors face a discriminatory tax system in addition to all the other nonsense:

Personal services corporation (http://www.allbusiness.com/accounting-reporting/corporate-taxes/391698-1.html)

Doctors aren't going to leave practice because they're greedy. They're going to be forced out of business just like they were by Romneycare. Which leads to further corporatization of medicine, which is more expensive and less efficient for basic care (economies of scale would kick in for specialized treatment or equipment).

lamberts-lost-tooth
04-09-2010, 01:39 PM
Indo left out one of the best parts. This isn't new, but doctors face a discriminatory tax system in addition to all the other nonsense:

Personal services corporation (http://www.allbusiness.com/accounting-reporting/corporate-taxes/391698-1.html)

Doctors aren't going to leave practice because they're greedy. They're going to be forced out of business just like they were by Romneycare. Which leads to further corporatization of medicine, which is more expensive and less efficient for basic care (economies of scale would kick in for specialized treatment or equipment).

...and a subpar healthcare system....by atttrition.

Indo
04-09-2010, 02:08 PM
Sorry but it doesn't work that way.

All of these docs still have to buy malpractice insurance, and I can tell ya it ain't cheap. Most of the docs that are going to call it quits are in private practice, which in turn means their taking a huge cut off the overhead of running a business. They still have to buy supplies, make payroll for employees, ect. If they work for a hospital how much of that dr.s fee actually goes to the dr. and how much does the hospital keep. Kinda like a bodyshop that charges $145 for shop labor. I can tell you for a fact that the body man doesn't make $145 an hour, the shop does.

I'll start with this one---
Mach1 is spot -on in regards to the supplies. I'm a surgeon who does a fair number of office procedures. I use bandages, gauze, tape, and many other supplies on a daily basis (lidocaine--"numbing medicine", syringes, scalpels, surgical gloves, etc etc). This cost comes directly out of my pocket. and it ain't reimbursible. Name me ONE other business where the supplies aren't paid for by the customer in some form

tony hipchest
04-09-2010, 02:22 PM
I'll start with this one---
Mach1 is spot -on in regards to the supplies. I'm a surgeon who does a fair number of office procedures. I use bandages, gauze, tape, and many other supplies on a daily basis (lidocaine--"numbing medicine", syringes, scalpels, surgical gloves, etc etc). This cost comes directly out of my pocket. and it ain't reimbursible. Name me ONE other business where the supplies aren't paid for by the customer in some formi "stole" the meat scissors they handed me to cut my daughters umbilical cord.

does that make me bad? doesnt the hospitals charge for all those supplies, anyways?

i also took a spray bottle of mouth lidocaine my mom had when she had a throat tube in IR. :noidea:

i was floored when i saw what they charger her for oxygen.

Indo
04-09-2010, 02:27 PM
Huh???!!! How do "they" rationalize deductible school loan interest for @#$%ing lawyers, and not for doctors, I mean aside from the obvious reason? How do you arrive at the conclusion that that makes any sense at all?

We need to gather up our sporting equipment and take back the Republic.

The answer to this one REALLY chaps my @sss

After much probing, this is the answer:

(and it's all BS--try to follow the logic, because I certainly CANNOT)

The person who ultimately becomes a Doctor ALWAYS wanted to be a Doctor
He/she goes to college with the intention of then continuing on to med school to become a Doctor. He/she, therefore HAS NOT changed his earning potential (I'm going to continue with the male pronoun...getting tired of typing he/she).Therefore, the interest paid on med school loans is NOT tax deductible because the INTENT was always to be a doctor.

Alternatively, the person who becomes a Lawyer DOES change his income potential by going to Law School and bettering oneself by doing so. He apparently WAS NOT certain that he was going to go to Law School after college. That Noble (where is the sarcasm smiley?) decision to pursue a career in The Law HAS increased the earning potential and therefore the taxes paid on Law School Loans IS tax deductible.

It's a crock of shyte.
There were MANY people in my med school class who started out doing other things--one was a nurse, one was a car salesman (true!), one didn't go to med school until he was 46 years old. Can anyone HONESTLY tell me that they hadn't increased their earning potential by subsequently going to med school?

There was a girl in my med school class who was married to a guy in Law school. When he graduated Law School, he then went to Med School. She did the opposite--med school first, then Law School (yes. They were BOTH driven overachievers and the most down-to-earth people you would ever want to meet). I wonder how they are dealing with all of this!

Likewise, I know some people who ALWAYS wanted to be Lawyers. They followed the common path of going to college first, and then to Law school. Explain why they get a tax break on their interest.

I don't get it, other than, as has been said, most legislators were lawyers first.


Disclaimer

No disrespect is meant to the lawyers on the forum----my only beef is that it should be fair for both

Indo
04-09-2010, 02:28 PM
i "stole" the meat scissors they handed me to cut my daughters umbilical cord.

does that make me bad? doesnt the hospitals charge for all those supplies, anyways?

i also took a spray bottle of mouth lidocaine my mom had when she had a throat tube in IR. :noidea:

i was floored when i saw what they charger her for oxygen.

The tony stole something? Say it ain't so...

Hospitals can and do charge for supplies.
Doctor's offices cannot (well, you CAN---but you aren't getting paid for it----laughed at; but not paid)

Indo
04-09-2010, 02:33 PM
Oh, tony, you undoubtedly DID pay for the scissors---so you ain't The Rebel you thought you were!

P.S. the oxycontin is in the mail...)

SteelersinCA
04-09-2010, 02:52 PM
The answer to this one REALLY chaps my @sss

After much probing, this is the answer:

(and it's all BS--try to follow the logic, because I certainly CANNOT)

The person who ultimately becomes a Doctor ALWAYS wanted to be a Doctor
He/she goes to college with the intention of then continuing on to med school to become a Doctor. He/she, therefore HAS NOT changed his earning potential (I'm going to continue with the male pronoun...getting tired of typing he/she).Therefore, the interest paid on med school loans is NOT tax deductible because the INTENT was always to be a doctor.

Alternatively, the person who becomes a Lawyer DOES change his income potential by going to Law School and bettering oneself by doing so. He apparently WAS NOT certain that he was going to go to Law School after college. That Noble (where is the sarcasm smiley?) decision to pursue a career in The Law HAS increased the earning potential and therefore the taxes paid on Law School Loans IS tax deductible.

It's a crock of shyte.
There were MANY people in my med school class who started out doing other things--one was a nurse, one was a car salesman (true!), one didn't go to med school until he was 46 years old. Can anyone HONESTLY tell me that they hadn't increased their earning potential by subsequently going to med school?

There was a girl in my med school class who was married to a guy in Law school. When he graduated Law School, he then went to Med School. She did the opposite--med school first, then Law School (yes. They were BOTH driven overachievers and the most down-to-earth people you would ever want to meet). I wonder how they are dealing with all of this!

Likewise, I know some people who ALWAYS wanted to be Lawyers. They followed the common path of going to college first, and then to Law school. Explain why they get a tax break on their interest.

I don't get it, other than, as has been said, most legislators were lawyers first.


Disclaimer

No disrespect is meant to the lawyers on the forum----my only beef is that it should be fair for both

If it makes you feel any better, law school interest is capped at around $2500/year. As you are aware that gets deducted from gross income not net, so it doesn't save the average lawyer much. Meh, eff it, it wouldn't make me feel any better either, but I'll take it!!! The reasoning sounds like lawyer BS reasoning for the simple fact that some lawyer put it in the legislation and left doctors out.

SteelersinCA
04-09-2010, 02:53 PM
I have to laugh.

Why is it that those who want to argue HCR...rarely argue with or even respond to Indo? Why ignore the ONE person in this forum who understands the application of the bill better thatn anyone else?

Guess we dont want to cloud the discussion with facts and experience.:noidea:

I always wait for Indo to post on health related topics until I even bother with the thread.

MACH1
04-09-2010, 03:07 PM
The answer to this one REALLY chaps my @sss


Disclaimer

No disrespect is meant to the lawyers on the forum----my only beef is that it should be fair for both

Sounds like you need a drink. :chuckle:

Crescent "No Lawyers" Bar & Grill (http://www.no-lawyers.com/)

Crescent "No Lawyers" Bar & Grill

Welcome to the Crescent "No Lawyers" Bar & Grill. We are the place to be if you are an avid sports fan or just want to enjoy great ****tails, "not your ordinary bar food", and a great atmosphere.

No Lawyers, No Kids, No Kidding!

If the owner finds out your a lawyer in his bar he'll have you removed for trespassing. True story!

revefsreleets
04-09-2010, 04:19 PM
Sounds like you need a drink. :chuckle:

Crescent "No Lawyers" Bar & Grill (http://www.no-lawyers.com/)



If the owner finds out your a lawyer in his bar he'll have you removed for trespassing. True story!

That's pretty smart. Lawyers, by their very nature, are always clamoring on about how "I'm a lawyer, I'm a lawyer! Whooppeeeeee, look at me, I'm a lawyer!".

MACH1
04-09-2010, 04:42 PM
That's pretty smart. Lawyers, by their very nature, are always clamoring on about how "I'm a lawyer, I'm a lawyer! Whooppeeeeee, look at me, I'm a lawyer!".

It's not that.

The Crescent Bar & Grill has always been a well known establishment in the Boise area but became "Famous" for it's "No Lawyers" theme in 1984 due to a legal dispute with a neighbor of ours who was a lawyer. He sued us & tried to stop us from putting a swimming pool in the back \:lard of our personal residence. This started a legal battle that wouy last over 1 year, cost us over $10,000.00, and gave us unexpected publicity. We
were instant celebrities and our business was in the forefront.

At the end of the battle, we ended up not only with our swimming pool, but a new concept & logo for our business- "No Lawyers". Thanks to that laWyer our business was put on the map. In return, we honored him by lovingly offering menu items such as our famous "Lawyer Fries", as well as many other house favorites named for the legal system!

Indo
04-09-2010, 05:49 PM
It's not that.

I'm gonna have to get up to Boise one of these days!

BTW, can I take the Mach1 for a spin after we have some beers at the "No Lawyers" Bar & Grill?

:chug: :beerfunnel:

MACH1
04-09-2010, 05:53 PM
I'm gonna have to get up to Boise one of these days!

BTW, can I take the Mach1 for a spin after we have some beers at the "No Lawyers" Bar & Grill?

:chug: :beerfunnel:

What the.....I don't even let my wife drive it. :chuckle:

revefsreleets
04-09-2010, 07:21 PM
No, what I'm saying is, if you are going to target a group and exclude them but only based upon their own admission, it needs to be a group that proudly wears their "profession" on their sleeve.

Lawyers, on top of the all the other layers of slime, are arrogant and boastful, always proclaiming that they are lawyers, trying to gain some kind of competitive advantage out of their attention whoring.

It doesn't make much sense to exclude, oh, I don't know, say....Accountants. Or Engineers. Or Mathematics Professors. Those people generally don't go around acting like they are more important, or somehow more special, than others, simply because they have advanced degrees (although they often do), pounding their chests whilst exclaiming their greatness due to their chosen profession.

SteelerEmpire
04-09-2010, 07:22 PM
We'll just replace them with doctor's from India...

tony hipchest
04-09-2010, 07:43 PM
We'll just replace them with doctor's from India...:huh: maybe i am just too used to small town medicine where the salaries arent that big in the 1st place.

dr. sampath was one of our maternity doctors.

the anireddy's are a great husband and wife team.

but when it came time to finally chose my own doctor i picked dr. abood (from jordan).

only because she was in her mid 30's, recently divorced, uber hot, and dressed like a rocker chick at the office with her spiked hair, designer jeans, and rocker boots. :thumbsup:

if im gonna have any doctor cupping my balls and sticking their finger up my butt (i.e. giving me the "dilfer") its gonna be her. :lust:

MACH1
04-09-2010, 07:54 PM
:huh: maybe i am just too used to small town medicine where the salaries arent that big in the 1st place.

dr. sampath was one of our maternity doctors.

the anireddy's are a great husband and wife team.

but when it came time to finally chose my own doctor i picked dr. abood (from jordan).

only because she was in her mid 30's, recently divorced, uber hot, and dressed like a rocker chick at the office with her spiked hair, designer jeans, and rocker boots with hands like a man. :thumbsup:

if im gonna have any doctor cupping my balls and sticking their finger up my butt (i.e. giving me the "dilfer") its gonna be her. :lust:

Fixed it. :toofunny:

tony hipchest
04-09-2010, 08:17 PM
Oh, tony, you undoubtedly DID pay for the scissors---so you ain't The Rebel you thought you were!


:chuckle: thats why i put 'stole' in quotes. anytime i have checked a loved one out of a hospital room i clean that mo-fo out like im in a hotel, from the bedpans/puke trays, to the packages of guaze, to the IV hoses. not that i need them or will ever use them (bedpans make good dogfood bowls) but for the damn principal that if were paying for that shit, i am sure as hell taking it.

plus you never know when you will need a cheap shower cap, foam footies, or hoses for your home made hookah. :wink02: :chuckle:

P.S. the oxycontin is in the mail...)

:danceshout: damn... youre easier than the doctors in mexico, and i sure as hell aint gonna make the trip down to juarez for a script! and dont worry. i dont bang them... just chew one up. :laughing:

i actually bought a script for them down in mexico once. the dr. was kinda stern and looked at me with a critical eye like i was some sort of drug dealer.

he asked what i wanted them for. i wasnt gonna lie, and told him i was down there for a root canal and needed something for the pain. he wrote the script and charged me $15 after raising an eyebrow. :thumbsup: (unfortunately all the pharmacies were out).

they are some wicked shit. while i would NEVER try heroin, i chewed a 20 mg once with a beer and felt exactly like the horse junkies you see on tv. i thought i might even puke until my floating body passed out.

i know i shouldnt joke about it. my favorite uncle (chronic pain sufferer) who turned me onto them and the "crunch effect" about 10 years ago, died mixing them with booze. rip.

plus, i still got a 2 year old 100 count bottle of flexiril i need to abuse... er, i mean use. damn, one of them and a few beers knocks me out, too. :chill:

Fixed it. :toofunny:

:wtf: lol. you suck!

dont hate the player, hate the game.

*puts on ignore*

:sofunny:

Vincent
04-09-2010, 08:40 PM
anytime i have checked a loved one out of a hospital room i clean that mo-fo out like im in a hotel, from the bedpans/puke trays, to the packages of guaze, to the IV hoses.

Fine Living only carries us so far. What room is best for the bed pans and puke trays? Are they "seasonal"? Can you "hook a brother up"? I'm struggling with the metrospeak as well.

tony hipchest
04-09-2010, 08:47 PM
Fine Living only carries us so far. What room is best for the bed pans and puke trays? Are they "seasonal"? Can you "hook a brother up"? I'm struggling with the metrospeak as well.you mean they dont give you the cool stainless steel bedpans in 'tha home"???

you really need to find a better 'assisted living' facility...

:sofunny:...:wink02:...:sofunny:

SteelersinCA
04-09-2010, 09:08 PM
No, what I'm saying is, if you are going to target a group and exclude them but only based upon their own admission, it needs to be a group that proudly wears their "profession" on their sleeve.

Lawyers, on top of the all the other layers of slime, are arrogant and boastful, always proclaiming that they are lawyers, trying to gain some kind of competitive advantage out of their attention whoring.

It doesn't make much sense to exclude, oh, I don't know, say....Accountants. Or Engineers. Or Mathematics Professors. Those people generally don't go around acting like they are more important, or somehow more special, than others, simply because they have advanced degrees (although they often do), pounding their chests whilst exclaiming their greatness due to their chosen profession.

Was the ex-girlfriend a lawyer or did you get denied admission to the bar. If you aren't calling someone an idiot you are bashing lawyers. Does that record play at 33 or 45 rpm? :noidea:

MACH1
04-09-2010, 09:09 PM
you mean they dont give you the cool stainless steel bedpans in 'tha home"???

you really need to find a better 'assisted living' facility...

:sofunny:...:wink02:...:sofunny:

If it makes you feel any better we have bedside commodes.

Cept in your case your responsible for your own clean up. :chuckle:

tony hipchest
04-09-2010, 09:34 PM
If it makes you feel any better we have bedside commodes.

Cept in your case your responsible for your own clean up. :chuckle::laughing:

:shout: hey vincent... im checking you in!

(except in your case mach1 cleans up)

:moon: :point: :poop: :nurse: :nervous: :yuck:

HometownGal
04-09-2010, 10:28 PM
No, what I'm saying is, if you are going to target a group and exclude them but only based upon their own admission, it needs to be a group that proudly wears their "profession" on their sleeve.

Lawyers, on top of the all the other layers of slime, are arrogant and boastful, always proclaiming that they are lawyers, trying to gain some kind of competitive advantage out of their attention whoring.

It doesn't make much sense to exclude, oh, I don't know, say....Accountants. Or Engineers. Or Mathematics Professors. Those people generally don't go around acting like they are more important, or somehow more special, than others, simply because they have advanced degrees (although they often do), pounding their chests whilst exclaiming their greatness due to their chosen profession.

Simply not true. I worked with attorneys for 23 years of my life and the majority of those I worked with (or on the other side of) were just hard working folks who chose to attend Law School to better themselves and take care of their families - much like just about every other American out there. Of course there was an exception here and there - just like in every other profession. It has been a lifelong dream of mine to attend Law School and when I had finally taken the first steps towards admission to Duquesne U School of Law, the C hit and poof went my dream.

Doctors are going to get the royal screw job here which will ultimately affect those of us who are in dire need of regular medical observation and treatment. I have had the same PCP for over 12 years who has provided me with truly excellent medical care, along with becoming a dear and trusted friend, and if I lose him - I'm not going to be a happy gal. :horror:

Change We Can Believe In. :jerkit:

Shea
04-09-2010, 11:36 PM
they are some wicked shit. while i would NEVER try heroin, i chewed a 20 mg once with a beer and felt exactly like the horse junkies you see on tv. i thought i might even puke until my floating body passed out.

i know i shouldnt joke about it. my favorite uncle (chronic pain sufferer) who turned me onto them and the "crunch effect" about 10 years ago, died mixing them with booze. rip.:

When I broke my arm, I was given vicoden and while at a party - thinking nothing of it - I drank a couple of beers and damn if I wasn't FLYING because of the combination.

Never have used Oxycotin but as I understand it, it's a much more potent pain management drug. I could only image where it would take you when using it and adding in the mix of alcohol. It sheds light on why pain pills have become a current epidemic in our society, and why it's one that is currently kicking so many people's asses.

Vincent
04-09-2010, 11:41 PM
:laughing:

:shout: hey vincent... im checking you in!

(except in your case mach1 cleans up)

:moon: :point: :poop: :nurse: :nervous: :yuck:

Oh, the silver thingie with the votives. Its starting to come together for me. And that "puke tray", as you say, has the hard boiled eggs. We are in "tall cotton".

Nurse!! Jameson. Double. Neat.

MasterOfPuppets
04-09-2010, 11:58 PM
You know, I am pretty certain that I would have no problem adjusting if MY salary went from $1M to a measily $800K, too. By why don't you look at this and see what the average doctor's salary is in the US...

http://www.payscale.com/research/US/People_with_Doctor_of_Medicine_(MD)_Degrees/Salary

From that salary, we (the doctors) have to pay our yearly medical license fees (about $450), our staff fees (yes, you have to PAY to be able to practice at a hospital---about $350), our malpractice insurance (depends on the specialty---for the average general surgeon, $35,000/year), our DEA license fees---$550 every 3 years)...the list goes on and on. And don't forget the med school loans---30-year loans (the interest paid is NOT tax deductible for doctors---the interest for law school loans IS tax deductible)---anywhere from 150k---to who knows. For me personally, about $160,000.

Trust me. We ain't rich.
And, as someone posted, they just decreased reimbursements by 21%

The AMA sucks. It does NOT represent the majority of doctors


wow...you got into the wrong field ... i recently went to a dermatogists house to give him an estimate on refinishing some hardwood flooring. i already new who he was because i went to school with his daughters ( but was never formally introduced ) an used to fish in his 5 acre pond in his backyard when i was kid. when i pulled up to the house i parked beside his 68 stingray and was checkin it out when he walked outside. after we introduced ourselves the conversation turned to the corvette then he said i have a few more you wanna see them? of course i did, so we went around to the side where the garage was, which was like a warehouse, he opened the door and thier sat 9 MORE CORVETTES, all of which were 60's and 70's models in mint condition and all different years. he also had a gas pump by the garage !!! so we went into the house, which i never seen the whole thing, but i'd say was probably 12 to 14 rooms and he showed me the 2 rooms he wanted done. i measured them , got my calculator out , i charge by the square foot, and gave him the estimate. for what i charge per square foot , after expences ( sandpaper,polyurethane, gas, etc ) i usually end up making anywhere from 30 to 40 dollars an hour depending on how much i feel like busting my ass. and how bad of shape the floor is in. i gave the guy the same price as i give to anyone else which probably 95% of the time i get the jobs i give estimates and a lot of the time people confess they expected it to be more. well this cheap ass with his multimillion dollar estate and his 10 vette havin ass, had the nerve to ask me if i could do better on the price !!! :doh: ... i figure the job would require about 25 hours or so and i'd make maybe $800 profit for 3 days.... I said sorry, but thats the price, and you might wanna look into carpet... then i added, and i bet it'll cost you more to have carpet put in... which i've also had people tell me my prices were lower than it would be to have carpet installed.:noidea: ... but i can't imagin going to his office for a visit and asking him " is that the best you can do" when it comes time to pay the bill. i mean this guy looks at kids pimples for 2 minutes , rights a perscription for super duper zit creme and hands the parents a bill for 80 bucks !!! :doh:

GBMelBlount
04-10-2010, 08:01 AM
Well, why don't you go to your boss and offer to take the sane 21% pay cut you feel that doctors deserve? Unless of course you take no pride in your work and are only in it for the money.

By forcing the 20% pay cut to doctors, shouldn't health care costs come down?

I guess what I was wondering is if the quality of health care would be affected if a lot of doctors do end up retiring early?

MACH1
04-10-2010, 01:31 PM
By forcing the 20% pay cut to doctors, shouldn't health care costs come down?

I guess what I was wondering is if the quality of health care would be affected if a lot of doctors do end up retiring early?

No, the cost will rise. Just cause they get paid less doesn't mean the supplies, equipment, ect, are going to be any cheaper.

Some of the biggest cuts will be from medicare/medicaid and Dr.s don't have to accept either. So not only will the elderly be hit by having to pay more out of pocket they'll be lucky if they can find a place that accepts mcare/mcaid.

Most of the Dr.s I know around here are probably going to get out of the business, shut down shop, 2/3 of them anyway. Except for my cousin who just finished up his internship and has massive loans to pay back. He's kicking himself for not becoming a lawyer instead.


Indo probably can answer this better.

Godfather
04-10-2010, 02:31 PM
No, the cost will rise. Just cause they get paid less doesn't mean the supplies, equipment, ect, are going to be any cheaper.

Some of the biggest cuts will be from medicare/medicaid and Dr.s don't have to accept either. So not only will the elderly be hit by having to pay more out of pocket they'll be lucky if they can find a place that accepts mcare/mcaid.

Most of the Dr.s I know around here are probably going to get out of the business, shut down shop, 2/3 of them anyway. Except for my cousin who just finished up his internship and has massive loans to pay back. He's kicking himself for not becoming a lawyer instead.


Indo probably can answer this better.

Plus we're increasing the role of insurance companies. All that bureaucracy and red tape is expensive--it's between a quarter and a third of our overall cost. Thanks to the individual mandate, insurers now have even less incentive to be efficient and fair.

Indo
04-10-2010, 02:58 PM
No, the cost will rise. Just cause they get paid less doesn't mean the supplies, equipment, ect, are going to be any cheaper.

Some of the biggest cuts will be from medicare/medicaid and Dr.s don't have to accept either. So not only will the elderly be hit by having to pay more out of pocket they'll be lucky if they can find a place that accepts mcare/mcaid.

Most of the Dr.s I know around here are probably going to get out of the business, shut down shop, 2/3 of them anyway. Except for my cousin who just finished up his internship and has massive loans to pay back. He's kicking himself for not becoming a lawyer instead.


Indo probably can answer this better.

What? You're wondering if I'm kicking myself for not becoming a lawyer?
Yes. I am.


Here's the thing--
the 21% cut in physician reimbursement is based on something known as the "Sustainable Growth Rate" formula which is used to determine the Medicare/'caid reimbursements to physicians

Check this out----it's from 2006

http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/75xx/doc7542/09-07-SGR-brief.pdf

Some of it requires further explanation, which I don't have time right now. But, for example, you will see that in some years it appears that physician reimbursement actually increased (1% in one case, 1.6% in another). It's all statistical crap.For example, for surgeons, the reimbursement of certain operations increased---the one I can think of off of the top of my head is esophagectomy (removal of the "food tube") for esophageal cancer. Now, esophageal cancer is REALLY bad. Most of the time it is no longer operable by the time it's discovered. So it is a very rare operation. So it is VERY RARE that a doctor would have to be reimbursed for doing the operation.
Now, gall bladder surgeries, hernia surgeries, appendectomy, etc. are all VERY COMMON operations. Guess what happened to the reimbursement for these. You got it---they ALL WENT DOWN.

So the medicare people put out this crap saying that "for fiscal year 2003 (or whatever it was) the reimbursements to physicians went up 1.6%" . Well, only on paper. In reality, the reimbursements for the common operations went down. And continue to go down based on that SGR formula. There have been several times in the last couple of years where the legislature is supposed to vote on changing the whole SGR as the basis for Medicare/'caid reimbursements, but apparently the vote keeps getting tabled.

In the menatime, more and more physicians are refusing to see Medicare/'caid patients simply because the continuing decline in reimbursements means that by accepting those patients one is agreeing to take a low payment (which generally doesn't even cover the overhead for seeing that patient (remember what I said about having to pay for our supplies);
I think that the govt (with this new healthscare reform) will ultimately mandate that MDs must see 'care/'caid patients.

And I agree, it doesn't mean health care costs will go down. It means that access to health care will become more difficult as more and more MDs refuse to see 'care/'caid patients---it's already happening in Massachusetts. As I recall (and these numbers may be off since I haven't looked up the recent figures lately) , it used to take something like 12 days to see an MD. Then they passed their "reform" and a bunch of MDs left the state. It now takes something like 63 days to see an MD

Indo
04-10-2010, 03:09 PM
wow...you got into the wrong field ... i recently went to a dermatogists house to give him an estimate on refinishing some hardwood flooring. i already new who he was because i went to school with his daughters ( but was never formally introduced ) an used to fish in his 5 acre pond in his backyard when i was kid. when i pulled up to the house i parked beside his 68 stingray and was checkin it out when he walked outside. after we introduced ourselves the conversation turned to the corvette then he said i have a few more you wanna see them? of course i did, so we went around to the side where the garage was, which was like a warehouse, he opened the door and thier sat 9 MORE CORVETTES, all of which were 60's and 70's models in mint condition and all different years. he also had a gas pump by the garage !!! so we went into the house, which i never seen the whole thing, but i'd say was probably 12 to 14 rooms and he showed me the 2 rooms he wanted done. i measured them , got my calculator out , i charge by the square foot, and gave him the estimate. for what i charge per square foot , after expences ( sandpaper,polyurethane, gas, etc ) i usually end up making anywhere from 30 to 40 dollars an hour depending on how much i feel like busting my ass. and how bad of shape the floor is in. i gave the guy the same price as i give to anyone else which probably 95% of the time i get the jobs i give estimates and a lot of the time people confess they expected it to be more. well this cheap ass with his multimillion dollar estate and his 10 vette havin ass, had the nerve to ask me if i could do better on the price !!! :doh: ... i figure the job would require about 25 hours or so and i'd make maybe $800 profit for 3 days.... I said sorry, but thats the price, and you might wanna look into carpet... then i added, and i bet it'll cost you more to have carpet put in... which i've also had people tell me my prices were lower than it would be to have carpet installed.:noidea: ... but i can't imagin going to his office for a visit and asking him " is that the best you can do" when it comes time to pay the bill. i mean this guy looks at kids pimples for 2 minutes , rights a perscription for super duper zit creme and hands the parents a bill for 80 bucks !!! :doh:

Yes, I did!

I'm wondering if that dermatologist does some cosmetic stuff as well---some dermatologists do Chemical Skin Peels and some do Plastic Surgery stuff (like eyelids and lip injections and stuff like that) that are not paid for by the insurance companies. That means they can charge just about anything they want and those that want those services will generally pay BIG bucks for it.
Unfortunately I just wasn't interested enough in doing any cosmetic surgery
Stupid, ain't I?!

(sounds like that guy is a 10 vette-having douche...)

Indo
04-10-2010, 03:13 PM
Here's more info on the Medicare/'caid SGR issue

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/15/cola_medicare_pres.pdf

it's written in an easy to understand pdf

check out page 13 which shows how the decrease in reimbursement completely ignores the increasing cost to keep a medical practice open and functioning...

SteelersinCA
04-10-2010, 07:32 PM
What? You're wondering if I'm kicking myself for not becoming a lawyer?
Yes. I am.



Funny, I often kick myself for not becoming a Dr. Guess the grass is always greener, huh?!

revefsreleets
04-11-2010, 07:06 AM
One thing I don't understand: Why is being wealthy such a horrible thing again? Especially for people who work really hard at it, spend a dozen extra years in school for it, and continue to work hard their whole lives for it?

I think it's really a few factors. Mostly, for the lower economic socio-demo, it's simply a combination of ignorance and envy. They aren't smart enough or skilled enough to make good jack, so they hate on others who are. That's why so many of them play the lottery. They want to be rich, but there's no actual way for them to get there due to their lack of smarts and skills.

It's another one of those situations where the simple look at things simply. They see a doctor with a big house filled with nice things and they just get angry and see red. But, as far as I can see, wealthy people do a lot for a community. Let's take the analogy of the Dermatologist above:

The dude has a big nice house. Did he build it himself? Doubt it. So he provided jobs to a LOT of contractors and subcontractors during construction. And, since it's a big house, he'll need lots of maintenance on it over the years, so there is ongoing work for HVAC, plumbers, windows, roofs, etc, etc...he has a lot of cars. Well, there is a transference of wealth involved there, and that often works top-down, so it's possible that he paid some lower income people for their ground-up work on those cars. There also may be some luxury taxes involved here, so he'll have paid his pound of flesh.

He probably has an office with more than a few employees. So he's also providing a living for several people. And there are always taxes. It sounds like he's a "1%er" (or close), and the 1% pay more taxes than the bottom 95% combined. No wonder he wants to save a buck where he can!

That's the last bit I want to address. Of COURSE the rich dude is going to try to save a buck on semi-skilled labor! That's part of how rich people get rich in the first place. He can charge whatever he wants FOR A REASON. If he doesn't like the price you quote, he can call any other number of people in who will bid to get the job and do just as good of a job. That's the nature of YOUR business, NOT the nature of his.

Too many people attempt to view things the uber-complexity of the World through too narrow of an understanding of how it REALLY works. It's literally what the idiom " Se the forest through the trees" is about. You can't look at one tiny corner of a 10,000 piece puzzle and presume to know what the entire subject matter of the puzzle is about...but, not only do people do that all the time, they also want to get angry and pontificate about how "right" they are even when they have no idea what the big picture really is....

zulater
04-11-2010, 08:25 AM
One thing I don't understand: Why is being wealthy such a horrible thing again? Especially for people who work really hard at it, spend a dozen extra years in school for it, and continue to work hard their whole lives for it?

I think it's really a few factors. Mostly, for the lower economic socio-demo, it's simply a combination of ignorance and envy. They aren't smart enough or skilled enough to make good jack, so they hate on others who are. That's why so many of them play the lottery. They want to be rich, but there's no actual way for them to get there due to their lack of smarts and skills.

It's another one of those situations where the simple look at things simply. They see a doctor with a big house filled with nice things and they just get angry and see red. But, as far as I can see, wealthy people do a lot for a community. Let's take the analogy of the Dermatologist above:

The dude has a big nice house. Did he build it himself? Doubt it. So he provided jobs to a LOT of contractors and subcontractors during construction. And, since it's a big house, he'll need lots of maintenance on it over the years, so there is ongoing work for HVAC, plumbers, windows, roofs, etc, etc...he has a lot of cars. Well, there is a transference of wealth involved there, and that often works top-down, so it's possible that he paid some lower income people for their ground-up work on those cars. There also may be some luxury taxes involved here, so he'll have paid his pound of flesh.

He probably has an office with more than a few employees. So he's also providing a living for several people. And there are always taxes. It sounds like he's a "1%er" (or close), and the 1% pay more taxes than the bottom 95% combined. No wonder he wants to save a buck where he can!

That's the last bit I want to address. Of COURSE the rich dude is going to try to save a buck on semi-skilled labor! That's part of how rich people get rich in the first place. He can charge whatever he wants FOR A REASON. If he doesn't like the price you quote, he can call any other number of people in who will bid to get the job and do just as good of a job. That's the nature of YOUR business, NOT the nature of his.

Too many people attempt to view things the uber-complexity of the World through too narrow of an understanding of how it REALLY works. It's literally what the idiom " Se the forest through the trees" is about. You can't look at one tiny corner of a 10,000 piece puzzle and presume to know what the entire subject matter of the puzzle is about...but, not only do people do that all the time, they also want to get angry and pontificate about how "right" they are even when they have no idea what the big picture really is....

Good points.

Godfather
04-11-2010, 10:05 AM
That's the last bit I want to address. Of COURSE the rich dude is going to try to save a buck on semi-skilled labor! That's part of how rich people get rich in the first place. He can charge whatever he wants FOR A REASON. If he doesn't like the price you quote, he can call any other number of people in who will bid to get the job and do just as good of a job. That's the nature of YOUR business, NOT the nature of his.



I disagree with this point. He was guilty of entitlement mentality--he doesn't budge on his prices, but he doesn't want to pay the same price other people have to pay for the same services. Anyone who's had a job dealing with the general public has witnessed the same mentality from every social class.

If he wants to pay less, he should have gotten estimates from multiple contractors and picked the best value.

revefsreleets
04-11-2010, 10:59 AM
I disagree with this point. He was guilty of entitlement mentality--he doesn't budge on his prices, but he doesn't want to pay the same price other people have to pay for the same services. Anyone who's had a job dealing with the general public has witnessed the same mentality from every social class.

If he wants to pay less, he should have gotten estimates from multiple contractors and picked the best value.

Dermatology customers are also perfectly welcome to shop around. The only "entitlement" here is his entitlement to trying to get the best possible price possible. I'm sure he did the same thing when he bought the 'Vettes...

the bottom line here is this is all about hypocrisy. Just because the man is wealthy, he doesn't automatically lose his ability to haggle. Should he pay MORE because he has more? Should he pay whatever best price he can get? Sure...JUST like every other shopper out there. If he wasn't wealthy, nobody would complain. This is "wealthism" at it's finest...and it begs the question: Where do we draw the line? Should he pay far more than the job is worth so the laborer can make more money off him just because he has more than the "average" customer?

Godfather
04-11-2010, 03:19 PM
Dermatology customers are also perfectly welcome to shop around. The only "entitlement" here is his entitlement to trying to get the best possible price possible. I'm sure he did the same thing when he bought the 'Vettes...

the bottom line here is this is all about hypocrisy. Just because the man is wealthy, he doesn't automatically lose his ability to haggle. Should he pay MORE because he has more? Should he pay whatever best price he can get? Sure...JUST like every other shopper out there. If he wasn't wealthy, nobody would complain. This is "wealthism" at it's finest...and it begs the question: Where do we draw the line? Should he pay far more than the job is worth so the laborer can make more money off him just because he has more than the "average" customer?

No, I just think he should pay the same price as everyone else, and give MOP the same respect he wants from his patients. He'd be offended if someone came in and asked "can't you do better than that"? He is not price shopping...if he were doing that he would get mulitple quotes and go with the low bid. He thinks he's entitled to a handout because MOP is beneath him. I've seen that kind of crap too.

And if a poor black person pulled that, you better believe people would complain just as loud. If you believe otherwise you haven't read a message board in the past 10 years.

revefsreleets
04-11-2010, 05:08 PM
As I said, one business is not the same as the other. While the Dr. MAY be offended if patient haggled with him, MOP would NOT be offended if 99 other perspective clients who were NOT wealthy haggled with him.

The offense this guy committed in MOP's eyes was having wealth. This is prejudice against wealth and the wealthy...NOT entitlement, since EVERY shopper in a free-enterprise system has the right to haggle...

Godfather
04-11-2010, 05:26 PM
As I said, one business is not the same as the other. While the Dr. MAY be offended if patient haggled with him, MOP would NOT be offended if 99 other perspective clients who were NOT wealthy haggled with him.

The offense this guy committed in MOP's eyes was having wealth. This is prejudice against wealth and the wealthy...NOT entitlement, since EVERY shopper in a free-enterprise system has the right to haggle...

I gotcha :drink:

I didn't get the same thing out of his post, that's all.

tony hipchest
04-11-2010, 07:21 PM
I gotcha :drink:

I didn't get the same thing out of his post, that's all.

me neither.

sounds like a pretty standard flat rate as opposed to some jealous envious person trying to stick it to the wealthy.

i honestly have no idea why its attempted to be painted that way. :noidea:

must be a vendetta or an agenda-

i charge by the square foot, and gave him the estimate. for what i charge per square foot , after expences ( sandpaper,polyurethane, gas, etc ) i usually end up making anywhere from 30 to 40 dollars an hour depending on how much i feel like busting my ass. and how bad of shape the floor is in. i gave the guy the same price as i give to anyone else which probably 95% of the time i get the jobs i give estimates and a lot of the time people confess they expected it to be more.

as a govt contractor, i know 1st hand you cant simply bend people (or entities) over just because of how much money they got.

rich people and the govt. almost always go with the cheapest bidder. to paraphrase revs "thats how they become rich".

this is nothing new. i agree with indo... dude sounds like a 10 vette having douche. maybe he goes with an unliscenced "cheapest bidder" and the job goes to crap in the next 2 years.

Godfather
04-11-2010, 07:32 PM
rich people and the govt. almost always go with the cheapest bidder. to paraphrase revs "thats how they become rich".

this is nothing new. i agree with indo... dude sounds like a 10 vette having douche. maybe he goes with an unliscenced "cheapest bidder" and the job goes to crap in the next 2 years.

Yep...if he were frugal he wouldn't be collecting Vettes. He's rich because he has a high income. More power to him for that, but I draw the line at thinking other people are there to serve him. A contractor isn't putting in a floor because it's fun or he wants to do something out of the goodness of his heart. He does it because it puts a roof over his head and food on his table, and he doesn't need some dickhead who knows nothing about contracting telling him he makes too much money. It's no different from liberals saying doctors are overpaid.

When my BIL and I were running a fish market we saw this kind of crap all the time. We had one customer who wanted to pay the whole-shrimp price for headless shrimp. (The head is 30-40% of the body weight so we'd have been selling below cost). We had another guy tell us $2.99 for 15-20 count shrimp (ie 15-20 shrimp per pound, pretty decent size) was too much and he wanted to know where there was another seafood shop. I gave him directions to our closest competitor, about 10 miles away, knowing full well that the other place was more than a dollar more per pound :sofunny:

MasterOfPuppets
04-11-2010, 09:10 PM
As I said, one business is not the same as the other. While the Dr. MAY be offended if patient haggled with him, MOP would NOT be offended if 99 other perspective clients who were NOT wealthy haggled with him.

The offense this guy committed in MOP's eyes was having wealth. This is prejudice against wealth and the wealthy...NOT entitlement, since EVERY shopper in a free-enterprise system has the right to haggle...

ok so now along with salesman, and politician, we can add psychiatrist to your resume. :thumbsup: ... is there no limits to your knowledge...:coffee: ... i'm not sure if i'm qualified to speak for myself or not, since i'm just a "semi skilled laborer" , but i'll throw it out there anyway ... as i already said, i wasn't taking advantage of his deep pockets...he got the same price quote as i would have given to radio salesman , school teacher or a "semi skilled laborer". in fact the only person i've changed the estimate for was a nun who i lowered the estimate for because she had such a good sob story when telling me about her meager earnings and financial situation. coincidently besides a contractor the only person that tried to stiff me was this freakin nun, who bounced a check on me and didn't make good on it till after about a month of unreturned phone calls , i left her message telling her i was heading to the courthouse to file a lawsuit. must have been an "act of god" that she finally listened to her phone messages..:noidea: ...but anyway, godfather hit the nail on the head. like he said , i took offense to the fact that he thought my time was worth less than what i quoted, .. like i should have less so he can have more ? sure he could get at least ONE more estimate from somebody who refinishes floors. i know of one other person in my area that does it and the last time i gave an estimate after him, i was consideral bit lower than him .....
as for the "semi skilled labor" title , i invite you to try it sometime, i mean of course an all knowing person like yourself might thrive at it, its soooo easy even a radio salesman could do it ...:toofunny: ... but sure anyone could do it, but doing it and not ending up in court being sued to replace someones floor, and doing it to look good are two different things....:noidea:

MasterOfPuppets
04-11-2010, 10:01 PM
I gotcha :drink:

I didn't get the same thing out of his post, that's all.

and you would have been correct... i kinda thought this sentence in my original post made my complaint kinda clear...
but i can't imagine going to his office for a visit and asking him " is that the best you can do" when it comes time to pay the bill.

TroysBadDawg
04-12-2010, 08:56 AM
Some overly simplistic views of Doctors. The VP of our Local BBWW club is a pediatrician. He has a pratice that is owned by the hospital, because of overhead costs. His is payed so much he works at a different hospital on weekends to afford to send his daughter to a local state college. Yes he is so everpaid, and he is one of the Best kid docs in a very large area. His wife also works at the school his son goes to. One of my Best friends is a Family Practice doc and his wife (I played match maker with them) is a cardiologist) She is quiting because of malpractice insurance, and he is talking about retiring and going into another field, because of insurance costs and regulations, now Obama care. He was one of the very few thay took new medicare patients, so what is going to happen when these docs leave? Your going to be left with those that could not make it otherwise, because no one wanted to go to them before and now they wil be stuck going to them, the inept doctors. In dayton they have a hospital that has ER doctors that speek very little English aand do not know what allergic to PCN means, I know been there done that. Spent three days in the hospital because of a reaction and the hospital charged me for it, although thier doc caused it.

revefsreleets
04-12-2010, 09:35 AM
So rich = Corrupt lying douche and Working class = Noble and honest.

Maybe his lands should be seized and split into parcels, then given to the humble and noble working class in an egalitarian redistribution of wealth? That'll teach him, going off and getting an education and making a lot of money! Not in America, buddy!

Seriously, this misguided bitching about doctors' relative wealth does nothing at all to address the real problem here. Family/General Practice medicine was already facing extinction BEFORE this awful piece of legislature was passed. The problem will become exponentially worse now...

SteelersinCA
04-12-2010, 12:03 PM
So rich = Corrupt lying douche and Working class = Noble and honest.

Maybe his lands should be seized and split into parcels, then given to the humble and noble working class in an egalitarian redistribution of wealth? That'll teach him, going off and getting an education and making a lot of money! Not in America, buddy!

Seriously, this misguided bitching about doctors' relative wealth does nothing at all to address the real problem here. Family/General Practice medicine was already facing extinction BEFORE this awful piece of legislature was passed. The problem will become exponentially worse now...

So I'm curious...if it's OK for a Dr. to work hard and collect wealth, why are you so against an attorney playing within the bounds of the system (whether the system is broken or not) to make his/her money?

MACH1
04-12-2010, 12:14 PM
This is the dumbest argument. People work hard to achieve what they have. Everybody at some point in their lives has tried to haggle or negotiate a better deal. So, rich or poor, haggling = evil. dumb

Bng_Hevn
04-12-2010, 01:14 PM
i'm relatively certain i could adjust if my salary went from 1 mill a year to a measily 800 thou.... :noidea:

i mean it would be tough, have to really tighten that belt...maybe move from a 6 bedroom house to a 4 ... probably have to cut the maid back to 5 days a week....

What about the stress and hours they work? Show me 1 doctor who is not grossly overpaid that makes $1million per year on a 40 hour work week with 3 - 4 weeks vacation a year and I'll show you a TV show.

revefsreleets
04-12-2010, 02:22 PM
So I'm curious...if it's OK for a Dr. to work hard and collect wealth, why are you so against an attorney playing within the bounds of the system (whether the system is broken or not) to make his/her money?

Presumably, lawyers are intelligent.

There is a shortage of doctors. That shortage will grow. There is a shortage of homegrown scientists, mathematicians, and engineers. Yet, each year, hundreds of law schools sign up another 50,000 law students, and many, if not most, will go on to become lawyers. As of 2006, we had roughly 1.2 million lawyers in the US, or one lawyer for every 265 citizens. The US has more lawyers than the next SEVEN countries on the list of "most lawyers" combined., and we keep pumping them out year after year after year.

By way of comparison, the US has about 800,000 doctors. BUT there will be a huge amount of baby boomer Dr's retiring over the next ten years. In fact, I've read estimates that stated we need to be training anywhere from 3,000 to 10,000 MORE doctors a year to keep up with population demands or we will be facing shortages in the mid-6 figures range by the middle of the next decade.

It takes a lot longer to train a doctor. They require a LOT more education than a lawyer. They are infinitely more important to the overall well-being of the society they live in. And we are running out of one and bursting at the seams with the other.

THAT'S the problem i have with lawyers....

PS Oh, and to address the other bit about me getting rejected from law school or dating a lawyer or whatever. Wrong. And wrong. Many of my closest friends are lawyers, and two of them are ChemE's with JD's....I give them all a hard time, too...

I was on my way to law school and realized A) I was sick of going to school after 18 years of it, and, B) The World has no need to for yet another lawyer.

SteelersinCA
04-12-2010, 02:40 PM
Presumably, lawyers are intelligent.

There is a shortage of doctors. That shortage will grow. There is a shortage of homegrown scientists, mathematicians, and engineers. Yet, each year, hundreds of law schools sign up another 50,000 law students, and many, if not most, will go on to become lawyers. As of 2006, we had roughly 1.2 million lawyers in the US, or one lawyer for every 265 citizens. The US has more lawyers than the next SEVEN countries on the list of "most lawyers" combined., and we keep pumping them out year after year after year.

By way of comparison, the US has about 800,000 doctors. BUT there will be a huge amount of baby boomer Dr's retiring over the next ten years. In fact, I've read estimates that stated we need to be training anywhere from 3,000 to 10,000 MORE doctors a year to keep up with population demands or we will be facing shortages in the mid-6 figures range by the middle of the next decade.

It takes a lot longer to train a doctor. They require a LOT more education than a lawyer. They are infinitely more important to the overall well-being of the society they live in. And we are running out of one and bursting at the seams with the other.

THAT'S the problem i have with lawyers....

PS Oh, and to address the other bit about me getting rejected from law school or dating a lawyer or whatever. Wrong. And wrong. Many of my closest friends are lawyers, and two of them are ChemE's with JD's....I give them all a hard time, too...

I was on my way to law school and realized A) I was sick of going to school after 18 years of it, and, B) The World has no need to for yet another lawyer.

I agree with what you are saying, for the most part, lots go to law school and don't become lawyers, but yes, there are a lot. If I understand you correctly, you have NO ISSUE with a lawyer becoming wealthy within the confines of the system, you just think there are too many lawyers?

Edit: The world always has a need for good lawyers, it's the unscrupulous ones we don't need. However, that goes with every profession Dr.'s included.

Indo
04-12-2010, 03:22 PM
I agree with what you are saying, for the most part, lots go to law school and don't become lawyers, but yes, there are a lot. If I understand you correctly, you have NO ISSUE with a lawyer becoming wealthy within the confines of the system, you just think there are too many lawyers?

Edit: The world always has a need for good lawyers, it's the unscrupulous ones we don't need. However, that goes with every profession Dr.'s included.

Yes. And Yes (I know some MDs that I wouldn't let touch my dog...).

revefsreleets
04-12-2010, 04:08 PM
There does need to be a certain SMALL amount of practicing lawyers. There are simply FAR FAR FAR TOO many of them.

The problem is that lawyers need lawsuits. The leech needs blood to suck. If we dumped an extra 500,000 auto body guys on society, they wouldn't find an extra 10,000,000 wrecked cars to work on because it doesn't work that way...the best analogy in that case would be those 500,000 auto body dudes driving around at 3AM randomly wrecking cars parked along the side of the road/in parking lots so they had work the next morning.

But that wouldn't work, either, because they'd all be arrested. But lawyers make the laws, AND make the laws are so complicated even THEY can't comprehend them, let alone every day ham-n-eggers like me. The inmates are in charge of the asylum, and there are MORE inmates being trained every day, not fewer...

SteelersinCA
04-13-2010, 12:33 AM
There does need to be a certain SMALL amount of practicing lawyers. There are simply FAR FAR FAR TOO many of them.

The problem is that lawyers need lawsuits. The leech needs blood to suck. If we dumped an extra 500,000 auto body guys on society, they wouldn't find an extra 10,000,000 wrecked cars to work on because it doesn't work that way...the best analogy in that case would be those 500,000 auto body dudes driving around at 3AM randomly wrecking cars parked along the side of the road/in parking lots so they had work the next morning.

But that wouldn't work, either, because they'd all be arrested. But lawyers make the laws, AND make the laws are so complicated even THEY can't comprehend them, let alone every day ham-n-eggers like me. The inmates are in charge of the asylum, and there are MORE inmates being trained every day, not fewer...

I have always said 2 things regarding lawyers; it's never good when you need to talk to one, and they are self-perpetuating. I pride myself on being honest and ethical, I sleep well at night.