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stillers4me
04-17-2010, 08:32 AM
Eric Kusselias is on ESPN radio this moring and he opened his show defending Ben. :thumbsup:

Perhaps we are beginning to see the tide turn abit. The media lynching has been way over the top, IMO. Yes, Ben needs to get his head out of his ass, but the media has been irresponsible in how this has been covered. (shocker) Bloggers like Florio are just trying to get hits on their websites, and it's too bad that nothing can be done about it.

fansince'76
04-17-2010, 08:34 AM
Perhaps we are beginning to see the tide turn abit. The media lynching has been way over the top, IMO. Yes, Ben needs to get his head out of his ass, but the media has been irresponsible in how this has been covered. (shocker) Bloggers like Florio are just trying to get hits on their websites, and it's too bad that nothing can be done about it.

Sooner or later they'll get bored and move on to another subject to verbally flog.

SMR
04-17-2010, 08:41 AM
APRIL 15--The college student who accused Ben Roethlisberger of sexually assaulting her last month in a Georgia nightclub told cops that the NFL star approached her "with his penis out of his pants" and followed her into a bathroom, where "he had sex with me" in spite of her objections.

Nice

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2010/0415101roethlisberger1.html

Wow, this is interesting especially since the accuser originally said she couldn't remember much of what happened (she was so drunk). Now that Ben is not charged, she, all of a sudden, is giving out details of what "happened" or at least having her very trustworthy friends/witnesses fill in the blanks for her? Hmmm.....credible!

:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny:

plenewken
04-17-2010, 08:58 AM
Wow, this is interesting especially since the accuser originally said she couldn't remember much of what happened (she was so drunk). Now that Ben is not charged, she, all of a sudden, is giving out details of what "happened" or at least having her very trustworthy friends/witnesses fill in the blanks for her? Hmmm.....credible!

:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny:

You have not been interrogated by a cop who happens to have been socializing with the alleged perpetrator before the incident, have you?
Just for your information, the GA cop who said she couldn't remember exactly what happened called her a "drunk bitch".
Oh and he resigned yesterday by the way ..............

Stone
04-17-2010, 09:37 AM
Perhaps we are beginning to see the tide turn abit. The media lynching has been way over the top, IMO. Yes, Ben needs to get his head out of his ass, but the media has been irresponsible in how this has been covered. (shocker) Bloggers like Florio are just trying to get hits on their websites, and it's too bad that nothing can be done about it.


Actually, I listen to Eric K.'s show pretty regularly and when he subs for one of the "Mike's" or Cowherd (the only time I will tune in to Cowherd) and he has been pretty damn supportive of Ben from the beginnning of this thing and always quick to warn fans to make sure they have all the facts. Of course, he is a lawyer so that may have something to do with it. lol

ESPN's Doug Gottlieb and Mike Golic have as well.

zulater
04-17-2010, 10:49 AM
The allegations are horrific, but being as the one who's made these accusations doesn't have the courage to stand up before a jury and face cross examination I also don't have to accept them as Gospel truth. You see that's how it works in this country. To accuse isn't enough. You also have to follow through with your accusations and be willing to testify so that your attacker isn't free to victimize others.

Earliar on this thread i was asked if i would want my 20 year old daughter going out with Ben. No if i had a daughter i wouldn't.

But I'll tell you what i would want my daughter to do. If she was in fact attacked and raped, no matter what sort of damaging evidence might be revealed about her, I would encourage and coerce her in any way I could to follow it all the way through and see that the bastard goes to jail. I would tell her though it might seem painfull now, you'll regret if for the rest of your life if you don't do everything in your power to see him punished.


But of course if no crime occured I'd advice her to drop it, just as she did.

I think this is where I'm going to leave it for now. :hatsoff:

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 12:20 PM
He insinuated things he claims he couldn't prove in a court of law. Sorry, but in my opinion it's unethical to tar a person guilty that you don't so much as bring up on charges .If he was that convinced of Ben's guilt go ahead charge him, it's his job to see to it that criminals pay for their misdeeds. What, I guess it always has to be easy? Scared you might scar your win percentage if you don't get lobbed an easy alley oop of a case?

This guy wanted his cake and to eat it too. Either at Ben's or the accuser's expense he made it his stage Monday. Cut it whichever way you like it but Bright is still a grandstanding a-hole.


:coffee:

I disagree he's tarring him guilty. I can see how you justify that as a Steelers fan, but if you take the fandom out of it, he's stating facts. Facts which have been undisputed by anyone including Ben. Again, there is a HUGE difference between guilty of a criminal charge and guilty of something else. Of course we don't want to see our franchise player grilled by the court of public opinion but 2 things:

1. You should be used to it, the guy has been retarded decision after retarded decision since day 1, and

2. He's a scumbag that deserves to be on the firing line.

About the daughter thing being raped, it would probably be wise to not even think about it until you have been in the situation. I know exactly what kind of dirt they try to dig up on these women coming from both the prosecution side and the defense side. Unless your daughter is squeaky clean, no one wants their dirty laundry aired in a court of law. Then you compound that with the case here where it would be aired all over the world, it takes on an entirely new perspective. I guarantee you would think twice about it if you had a daughter. You would find out things she never even told you. Lots of it. What if she likes being spanked, choked or hot wax dripped on her? You prepared to have lots of people hear those things?

zulater
04-17-2010, 12:29 PM
About the daughter thing being raped, it would probably be wise to not even think about it until you have been in the situation. I know exactly what kind of dirt they try to dig up on these women coming from both the prosecution side and the defense side. Unless your daughter is squeaky clean, no one wants their dirty laundry aired in a court of law. Then you compound that with the case here where it would be aired all over the world, it takes on an entirely new perspective. I guarantee you would think twice about it if you had a daughter. You would find out things she never even told you. Lots of it. What if she likes being spanked, choked or hot wax dripped on her? You prepared to have lots of people hear those things?

25 years ago I might have agreed with that perspective, but unless you've been stranded in bible camp with no television, radio, newspaper, internet etc.. you probably realize that everyone has some monsters in the closet that they're not comfortable unveiling. But today's world is forgiving and largely doesn't give a damn what you do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. So in order to take a sexual predator off the streets I'd tell her that you have to swallow hard, do the right thing and any negative repurcussions will go away in short order as long as you don't stray from the truth. But if you sit silently by, a month, a year, a half decade later, and your attacker victimizes another, perhaps even more brutally ( escalation is usually a symptom of diseased minds) you'll never forgive yourself.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 12:34 PM
25 years ago I might have agreed with that perspective, but unless you've been stranded in bible camp with no television, radio, newspaper, internet etc.. you probably realize that everyone has some monsters in the closet that they're not comfortable unveiling. But today's world is forgiving and largely doesn't give a damn what you do, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. So in order to take a sexual predator off the streets I'd tell her that you have to swallow hard, do the right thing and any negative repurcussions will go away in short order as long as you don't stray from the truth. But if you sit silently by, a month, a year, a half decade later, and your attacker victimizes another, perhaps even more brutally ( escalation is usually a symptom of diseased minds) you'll never forgive yourself.

I'm saying from a father's perspective, that's the one you approached this from. Not the guy in Canada who you will never meet. What's interesting is you throw sexual predator around nonchalantly, but you will defend Ben tirelessly. He got lucky this time. If the victim wanted to go forward the case might have been completely different. That decision doesn't change what Ben did, but in your mind he's A-OK, huh?

zulater
04-17-2010, 12:36 PM
I'm saying from a father's perspective, that's the one you approached this from. Not the guy in Canada who you will never meet.

I've got a son, I tell him doing the right thing isn't always the easiast approach, but it's always the best one. Take it as you will.

:coffee:

WH
04-17-2010, 12:52 PM
That decision doesn't change what Ben did, but in your mind he's A-OK, huh?

What did Ben do besides have consensual sex with a girl in a Club VIP Bathroom.

SteveS
04-17-2010, 01:16 PM
What did Ben do besides have consensual sex with a girl in a Club VIP Bathroom.

Agreed. One thing that is annoying me through this whole thing is, even those that are smart enough to not crucify him as a rapist are STILL saying what he did made him a jerk and a bad person even though he didn't commit a crime.

May I ask what about having consensual sex with a girl in the restroom of a nightclub (if they even DID go that far) makes him a jerk? It may not have been the smartest thing to do, but it certainly doesn't make him a a "bad guy" or a "jerk".

None of this stuff is even proven and never will be. All we know is he hung out at a few bars that night with his friends, treated the girls to drinks (who may I remind everyone were leading everyone onto believing they were over 21), and had some sort of consensial liason in the restroom with the girl. That is all we know happened for sure, yet people are claiming he is a bad guy and a jerk? This whole thing is totally baffling to me.

plenewken
04-17-2010, 01:44 PM
May I ask what about having consensual sex with a girl in the restroom of a nightclub (if they even DID go that far) makes him a jerk? It may not have been the smartest thing to do, but it certainly doesn't make him a a "bad guy" or a "jerk".

.

What makes you believe sex was consensual?

WH
04-17-2010, 01:49 PM
What makes you believe sex was consensual?
What hard evidence exists that it wasn't?

Reasonable doubt proven.

Mr. Roethlisberger, you're free to go.

SteveS
04-17-2010, 01:55 PM
What makes you believe sex was consensual?

Oh lets see, contradicting statements from the girl and her friends for starters. Hell, I am not even convinced CONSENSUAL intercourse occured, let alone forced intercourse, given the fact the girl hardly had ANY male DNA on her vaginal area. Had he given it to her unprotected, then she would have his DNA all over that area.

What would make him a jerk and a bad guy? Seems to me that doing stuff like taking advantage of and forcing your self on a woman would constitute such a label, yet there isn't even CLOSE to being enough proof that stuff happened. So you can't say he acted like a jerk or a bad person that night anymore than you can say he raped her.

This is flat out ridiculous that we even have to go over this.

plenewken
04-17-2010, 02:11 PM
What hard evidence exists that it wasn't?

Reasonable doubt proven.

Mr. Roethlisberger, you're free to go.

1) The victim reports a sexual assault to the cops and goes to the hospital immediately after the incident
2) The victim was intoxicated
3) The victim didn't know Ben prior to the incident.

steeldawg
04-17-2010, 02:18 PM
1) The victim reports a sexual assault to the cops and goes to the hospital immediately after the incident
2) The victim was intoxicated
3) The victim didn't know Ben prior to the incident.

none of these that you just listed are facts that he raped that girl you are realling grasping at straws here.

steeldawg
04-17-2010, 02:19 PM
1) The victim reports a sexual assault to the cops and goes to the hospital immediately after the incident
2) The victim was intoxicated
3) The victim didn't know Ben prior to the incident.

The only one that even suggests it is number one but if you really want to use that lets use it. the doctor who examined her could not say that she was raped.

steeldawg
04-17-2010, 02:21 PM
1) The victim reports a sexual assault to the cops and goes to the hospital immediately after the incident
2) The victim was intoxicated
3) The victim didn't know Ben prior to the incident.

you can be intoxicated and have consensual sex
you can have consensual sex with someone you dont know.

SteveS
04-17-2010, 02:23 PM
1) The victim reports a sexual assault to the cops and goes to the hospital immediately after the incident
2) The victim was intoxicated
3) The victim didn't know Ben prior to the incident.

1) If only they had found DNA on her when she actually went to the hospital.
2) Ben and his buddies were also likely intoxicated, I guess that means they were raped too?
3)Assuming you are insinating that she didn't know who he was, therefore she would have no motivation to "get rich off of going after a rich star", then techically that isn't the case, because I believe before she met him that night she hadn't heard of him before, but once she started hanging with him she had already been made aware EXACTLY who he was and what his profession was.

SteelersBry79
04-17-2010, 03:25 PM
Oh lets see, contradicting statements from the girl and her friends for starters. Hell, I am not even convinced CONSENSUAL intercourse occured, let alone forced intercourse, given the fact the girl hardly had ANY male DNA on her vaginal area. Had he given it to her unprotected, then she would have his DNA all over that area.

What would make him a jerk and a bad guy? Seems to me that doing stuff like taking advantage of and forcing your self on a woman would constitute such a label, yet there isn't even CLOSE to being enough proof that stuff happened. So you can't say he acted like a jerk or a bad person that night anymore than you can say he raped her.

This is flat out ridiculous that we even have to go over this.

I agree. Not only is this whole thing been a waste of time, but an innocent man is being punished for something that has happened countless times throughout history. The only factors that make this different than all the rest are: 1. he's rich 2. he's a sports star If this was some regular joe off the street, chances are you would never hear about it, let alone the cops really doing that much. Like George Carlin said, this is another example of the Pussification of America. It seems to me that men can't even talk to a woman, as in asking for the time without being accused of something. Now with these 2 new alleged incidents, you just know that every woman who's been with a sports star is coming out of the woodwork looking for easy cash and if they can't it, they'll ruin an innocent man's life instead.

wiz1120
04-17-2010, 04:33 PM
I agree. Not only is this whole thing been a waste of time, but an innocent man is being punished for something that has happened countless times throughout history. The only factors that make this different than all the rest are: 1. he's rich 2. he's a sports star If this was some regular joe off the street, chances are you would never hear about it, let alone the cops really doing that much. Like George Carlin said, this is another example of the Pussification of America. It seems to me that men can't even talk to a woman, as in asking for the time without being accused of something. Now with these 2 new alleged incidents, you just know that every woman who's been with a sports star is coming out of the woodwork looking for easy cash and if they can't it, they'll ruin an innocent man's life instead.


I agree, but I would like to add a #3 to your list. 3. The media has soo many outlets, people will remember this for a long time. Every media source has talked about this nonstop for almost a month. If this happened 10 years ago, he wouldn't be getting killed so badly.

I just feel bad for Ben and Tiger that both of their incidents happened when they happened. Both men have absolutely destroyed their images, but the media attention just makes it that much worse.

And if Ben really didn't do any of this, I feel the worst for him. There are so many Steeler fans that are trying to run him out of town.

Ben, I hope you know that there are the Steeler fans that do support you. In America, you are innocent until proven guilty. And the fact that you haven't even been charged in either of these cases shows you what a joke they are.

SteelersBry79
04-17-2010, 04:41 PM
I agree, but I would like to add a #3 to your list. 3. The media has soo many outlets, people will remember this for a long time. Every media source has talked about this nonstop for almost a month. If this happened 10 years ago, he wouldn't be getting killed so badly.

I just feel bad for Ben and Tiger that both of their incidents happened when they happened. Both men have absolutely destroyed their images, but the media attention just makes it that much worse.

And if Ben really didn't do any of this, I feel the worst for him. There are so many Steeler fans that are trying to run him out of town.

Ben, I hope you know that there are the Steeler fans that do support you. In America, you are innocent until proven guilty. And the fact that you haven't even been charged in either of these cases shows you what a joke they are.

I'm sure this has been asked here before too: How does liking sex, ex. Ben, Tiger, Roger Clemens have anything to do with their talents? They're paid to win and not just be moderately good just so their sponsors' images aren't tainted. I support Ben 100% and I don't care who likes it or doesn't.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 05:37 PM
What did Ben do besides have consensual sex with a girl in a Club VIP Bathroom.

If you believe it was consenual then fine. I think the evidence is clear it was anything but. You obviously missed me drawing the line between criminal charges and being a scumbag. You don't have to commit crimes to be a piece of sh!t human.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 05:44 PM
I agree. Not only is this whole thing been a waste of time, but an innocent man is being punished for something that has happened countless times throughout history. The only factors that make this different than all the rest are: 1. he's rich 2. he's a sports star If this was some regular joe off the street, chances are you would never hear about it, let alone the cops really doing that much. Like George Carlin said, this is another example of the Pussification of America. It seems to me that men can't even talk to a woman, as in asking for the time without being accused of something. Now with these 2 new alleged incidents, you just know that every woman who's been with a sports star is coming out of the woodwork looking for easy cash and if they can't it, they'll ruin an innocent man's life instead.

If Ben was a regular guy, the greatest fallacy there is!!

1. You wouldn't care about him being accused of rape.
2. You wouldn't hear about it unless you lived in Midgeville.
3. You'd probably be saying crucify the guy for being a creep.
4. You'd probably believe the girl
5. It never would have happened because what college girl would approach a 30 year old at a college bar? They would have laughed at his dumpy, chubby mullet sportin' ass.

WH
04-17-2010, 07:28 PM
If you believe it was consenual then fine. I think the evidence is clear it was anything but. You obviously missed me drawing the line between criminal charges and being a scumbag. You don't have to commit crimes to be a piece of sh!t human.

What evidence? The word of a woman who was so drunk she couldn't formulate coherrent sentences? Other than that, what evidence is there?

HometownGal
04-17-2010, 08:12 PM
What evidence? The word of a woman who was so drunk she couldn't formulate coherrent sentences? Other than that, what evidence is there?

I'm still waiting to hear what actual concrete "evidence" there is out there which confirms that Ben indeed "raped" this girl. No DNA, no evidence of force (other than some bruising and a cut on her va-jay-jay which most of us women have experienced during normal sexual intercourse particularly if the man is hung like a mule) and no evidence of the bar rat being forcefully dragged back to that teenie weenie bathroom against her will.

Ben most definitely isn't a saint and I view him in a bit of a different light now (as a person), but I haven't seen or heard one bit of credible "evidence" that he is guilty of anything other than being a somewhat pompous Horny Howard who has the common sense of a brussel sprout.

Preacher
04-17-2010, 08:17 PM
I'm still waiting to hear what actual concrete "evidence" there is out there which confirms that Ben indeed "raped" this girl. No DNA, no evidence of force (other than some bruising and a cut on her va-jay-jay which most of us women have experienced during normal sexual intercourse particularly if the man is hung like a mule) and no evidence of the bar rat being forcefully dragged back to that teenie weenie bathroom against her will.

Ben most definitely isn't a saint and I view him in a bit of a different light now (as a person), but I haven't seen or heard one bit of credible "evidence" that he is guilty of anything other than being a somewhat pompous Horny Howard who has the common sense of a brussel sprout.

Throw in there sleazy man-child, and we are about 95% in agreement. Maybe 99%.

Though I do believe he is in a VERY gray area, maybe even dark gray area concerning his actions.

As I have said many times. I can have two people sitting in my office talking about a conversation they had. I would swear they were in different universes the way they discuss it. Here? He thinks he is suave, she thinks he is forcing himself on her (generally, not physically holding her down) and is fearful.

That is my own gut instinct of what is happening.

But I do have to ask why you consistently degrade the two women that accused him. If we have no concrete evidence again Ben, we absolutely have no evidence against McNulty or this young woman. No evidence they are lying. No evidence they are "bar rats" or anything else. Honestly, this is my biggest frustration on teh board, is how these women are consistently and quite quickly labeled and dismissed, yet Ben is just "being an average 20 something male and we should leave him alone" as many have said.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 08:22 PM
I'm still waiting to hear what actual concrete "evidence" there is out there which confirms that Ben indeed "raped" this girl. No DNA, no evidence of force (other than some bruising and a cut on her va-jay-jay which most of us women have experienced during normal sexual intercourse particularly if the man is hung like a mule) and no evidence of the bar rat being forcefully dragged back to that teenie weenie bathroom against her will.

Ben most definitely isn't a saint and I view him in a bit of a different light now (as a person), but I haven't seen or heard one bit of credible "evidence" that he is guilty of anything other than being a somewhat pompous Horny Howard who has the common sense of a brussel sprout.

You won't find any that he raped her, but that's not what I'm talking about. Everyone avoids the argument by going back to this guilty until proven innocent rhetoric. Anyone who is clamoring for Ben to be charged criminally is barking up the wrong tree, that ship has sailed. What I'm talking about and rather unsuccessfully getting people to realize that Ben is a pretty poor excuse for a man. There is plenty of evidence of that.

As you know from your work in the legal field HTG, there is direct and circumstantial evidence. There is evidence Ben had sex with her. She had sex with someone and her friends saw her come out of a room with Ben and immediately go to the police. Now it would be mighty hard for her to have sex with someone else in that time frame, or everyone is lying. I sincerely doubt everyone is in on the scam. So if we can at least admit Ben had sex with her and recognize that we are merely left with the details of how it went down. Again, her friends thought something was wrong, attempted to get to her but were stonewalled by security, the girl was visibly shaken and distraught so much that her friends believe her and took her to the nearest officer. At the very least, Ben took advantage of a visibly drunk 20 year old. Hardly stand up behavior. Did he follow her into the bathroom after she tried to get away from him? Did she ask him to follow her? Did he enter the bathroom with his penis out?

Where is the evidence Ben is hung like a mule speaking of evidence? It seems it's more than OK to view the evidence in a light most favorable to Ben. Like all stories the truth lies somewhere in the middle. My point is that middle is still a despicable place for any man.

Preacher
04-17-2010, 08:24 PM
You won't find any that he raped her, but that's not what I'm talking about. Every avoids the argument by going back to this guilty until proven innocent rhetoric. Anyone who is clamoring for Ben to be charged criminally is barking up the wrong tree, that ship has sailed. What I'm talking about and rather unsuccessfully getting people to realize that Ben is a pretty poor excuse for a man. There is plenty of evidence of that.

As you know from your work in the legal field HTG, there is direct and circumstantial evidence. There is evidence Ben had sex with her. She had sex with someone and her friends saw her come out of a room with Ben and immediately go to the police. Now it would be mighty hard for her to have sex with someone else in that time frame, or everyone is lying. I sincerely doubt everyone is in on the scam. So if we can at least admit Ben had sex with her and recognize that we are merely left with the details of how it went down. Again, her friends thought something was wrong, attempted to get to her but were stonewalled by security, the girl was visibly shaken and distraught so much that her friends believe her and took her to the nearest officer. At the very least, Ben took advantage of a visibly drunk 20 year old. Hardly stand up behavior. Did he follow her into the bathroom after she tried to get away from him? Did she ask him to follow her? Did he enter the bathroom with his penis out?

Where is the evidence Ben is hung like a mule speaking of evidence? It seems it's more than OK to view the evidence in a light most favorable to Ben. Like all stories the truth lies somewhere in the middle. My point is that middle is still a despicable place for any man.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: EXACTLY

Shoes
04-17-2010, 08:29 PM
You won't find any that he raped her, but that's not what I'm talking about. Everyone avoids the argument by going back to this guilty until proven innocent rhetoric. Anyone who is clamoring for Ben to be charged criminally is barking up the wrong tree, that ship has sailed. What I'm talking about and rather unsuccessfully getting people to realize that Ben is a pretty poor excuse for a man. There is plenty of evidence of that.

As you know from your work in the legal field HTG, there is direct and circumstantial evidence. There is evidence Ben had sex with her. She had sex with someone and her friends saw her come out of a room with Ben and immediately go to the police. Now it would be mighty hard for her to have sex with someone else in that time frame, or everyone is lying. I sincerely doubt everyone is in on the scam. So if we can at least admit Ben had sex with her and recognize that we are merely left with the details of how it went down. Again, her friends thought something was wrong, attempted to get to her but were stonewalled by security, the girl was visibly shaken and distraught so much that her friends believe her and took her to the nearest officer. At the very least, Ben took advantage of a visibly drunk 20 year old. Hardly stand up behavior. Did he follow her into the bathroom after she tried to get away from him? Did she ask him to follow her? Did he enter the bathroom with his penis out?

Where is the evidence Ben is hung like a mule speaking of evidence? It seems it's more than OK to view the evidence in a light most favorable to Ben. Like all stories the truth lies somewhere in the middle. My point is that middle is still a despicable place for any man.

Good post CA

Sansi
04-17-2010, 08:36 PM
Yeah. Just so everyone is clear - it is well known that it was not zero DNA found, but trace amounts of fresh male DNA too small in number to use for matching purposes, right?

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 08:51 PM
Yeah. Just so everyone is clear - it is well known that it was not zero DNA found, but trace amounts of fresh male DNA too small in number to use for matching purposes, right?

Effect is the same, not enough for criminal charges.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 09:00 PM
Effect is the same, not enough for criminal charges.

Yes, of course. I just felt it was a decent point - there was not none, but an unusable amount. All I have seen is "No DNA, so obviously nothing happened." It was to serve your point that most of the free thinking world has come to understand intercourse occurred.

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 09:20 PM
Yes, of course. I just felt it was a decent point - there was not none, but an unusable amount. All I have seen is "No DNA, so obviously nothing happened." It was to serve your point that most of the free thinking world has come to understand intercourse occurred.

And since there was little to no DNA, it stands to reason that she said no after they started and he stopped. Isn't that the point of "no means no"?

Sansi
04-17-2010, 09:22 PM
And since there was little to no DNA, it stands to reason that she said no after they started and he stopped. Isn't that the point of "no means no"?

Which would mean he lied in his statement to police and to the media.

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 09:33 PM
Which would mean he lied in his statement to police and to the media.

Not neccessarily. He said there was no intercourse. If they stopped before penetration, than no intercourse ocurred. He could have been "there" but not "in there". He admitted to some type of sexual contact and that she fell. He told someone else, they were messing around, and she fell. He told her she was too drunk to be doing this and stopped. The hospital report basically fits this scenario.

But really, I'm sick of all at this point. Nobody knows what really happened and she was too wasted to remember. Get the suspension announcement over with and onto the draft.

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 09:47 PM
Yes, of course. I just felt it was a decent point - there was not none, but an unusable amount. All I have seen is "No DNA, so obviously nothing happened." It was to serve your point that most of the free thinking world has come to understand intercourse occurred.

I gotcha!

SteelersinCA
04-17-2010, 09:50 PM
Not neccessarily. He said there was no intercourse. If they stopped before penetration, than no intercourse ocurred. He could have been "there" but not "in there". He admitted to some type of sexual contact and that she fell. He told someone else, they were messing around, and she fell. He told her she was too drunk to be doing this and stopped. The hospital report basically fits this scenario.

But really, I'm sick of all at this point. Nobody knows what really happened and she was too wasted to remember. Get the suspension announcement over with and onto the draft.

I don't know that she was too wasted to remember, she doesn't ever say she had any difficulty remembering, merely that she didn't want prosecution. I think that's a convenient argument for the Ben supporters. Where does it ever say she doesn't remember? I deal with a lot of drunks and when they get arrested for DUI they remember all sorts of things the sober cops forget. When something traumatic happens, you remember.

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 09:52 PM
I don't know that she was too wasted to remember, she doesn't ever say she had any difficulty remembering, merely that she didn't want prosecution. I think that's a convenient argument for the Ben supporters. Where does it ever say she doesn't remember? I deal with a lot of drunks and when they get arrested for DUI they remember all sorts of things the sober cops forget. When something traumatic happens, you remember.

"Were you raped?" No, maybe, sort of, I guess so.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 09:56 PM
"Were you raped?" No, maybe, sort of, I guess so.

She left the area crying and her friends immediately took her to the police, one of whom called her a lying bitch and reminded her how rich and powerful Ben is. She then wrote down the statement we have seen in the documents, which states clearly that intercourse occurred. Perhaps you do not believe it occurred, but she did state it clearly.

Ricco Suavez
04-17-2010, 09:59 PM
The "victim" states at one point in the report that Ben and her had unprotected sex, there should be some DNA available from unprotected sex. Another point is if her friends where so concerned about her why did no one call 911. According to her friends statement they were very concerned yet no one called 911, no cell phones amongst a group of young ladies, not likely.

steel9guy
04-17-2010, 10:00 PM
trade em.

steel9guy
04-17-2010, 10:00 PM
just joking

austinfrench76
04-17-2010, 10:01 PM
If intercourse accured, WHY NO DNA? That makes no sense. They didn't even request it from Ben. I'm not defending him and obviously something bad happened but Rape=DNA request. Plain and simple.

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 10:04 PM
She left the area crying and her friends immediately took her to the police, one of whom called her a lying bitch and reminded her how rich and powerful Ben is. She then wrote down the statement we have seen in the documents, which states clearly that intercourse occurred. Perhaps you do not believe it occurred, but she did state it clearly.

She also clearly stated that she was not raped when the police first asked her. Then it was maybe, then it was "kinda rape".

Would any of you want your own son charged and convicted based on these witness statements? I don't think so.

The DA clearly stated that even if the girl had not requested that no charges be brought, he still would have come to the same conclusion.....no charges. Numerous experts have looked ove the documents and stated that the DA made the right decision. Like it or not, Ben there wasn't enough evidence to bring charges so I don't understand why all the "armchair lawyers" think they could have done a better job and found a way to bring charges against him. Is it so hard to believe that both of them behaved like dirtballs and the girl got in over her head and needed a way out before she and her friends were charged with filing false reports? It doesn't mean that nothing happend, just that no crime was actually commited. I don't even know why it went beyond the first question.....which she answered "no".

Prok
04-17-2010, 10:15 PM
She also clearly stated that she was not raped when the police first asked her. Then it was maybe, then it was "kinda rape".

Would any of you want your own son charged and convicted based on these witness statements? I don't think so.

Seems alot of ppl only want to believe one side. They're minds are made up and that's that i guess.

I'm STILL a Big Ben fan but at this point we may as well trade him to stop the witch hunt. I get the feeling Steelers fans just ain't gonna let this die. I think that many simply won't be happy until we get rid of him.

At this stage i'd find it funny if somehow we did a 3-way deal where we ended up with lots of picks and the clowns ended up with Ben. It would make me sick as all hell but those that won't stop villifying him would get their way PLUS he'd be on public enemy #1 team to boot.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 10:16 PM
She also clearly stated that she was not raped when the police first asked her. Then it was maybe, then it was "kinda rape".

Would any of you want your own son charged and convicted based on these witness statements? I don't think so.

She claimed to have been sexually assaulted or manipulated according to the documents. Man I hope if anything remotely resembling this happens to a child of mine they have this astounding moment of great legal clarity that seems to be required of anyone nowadays accusing a star.

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 10:19 PM
She claimed to have been sexually assaulted or manipulated according to the documents. Man I hope if anything remotely resembling this happens to a child of mine they have this astounding moment of great legal clarity that seems to be required of anyone nowadays accusing a star.


When asked if she had been raped, she said "no". How many times do you have to read that before it sinks in. She changed her story several times. Her friends stories kept getting wilder and wilder. The only stories that seemed consistant were from the two sober police officers that nobody wants to believe.


And again...........the DA made it very clear that it didn't matter who Ben was. He would have come to the same conclusion. The girl did not go to the police.............her friends did. They were the ones trying to convince her that she was raped and probably were the ones looking up his stats on their cell phones.

Everybody keeps saying "what if that were you daughter". If your daughter acted like this girl, you've got bigger problems. And if this were your son, you would be screaming about the credibilty of the witnesses. It can't be both ways.

Stone
04-17-2010, 10:27 PM
She left the area crying and her friends immediately took her to the police...

Well yes, that was ONE account. There is another where one of her friends says they "found her on the street 45 minutes later" and after discussions amongst them, went to find an officer.

Which story is it?

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 10:28 PM
Well yes, that was ONE account. There is another where one of her friend says they "found her on the street 45 minutes later" and after discussions amongst them, went to find an officer.

Which story is it?

The defense rests.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 10:31 PM
And again...........the DA made it very clear that it didn't matter who Ben was. He would have come to the same conclusion. The girl did not go to the police.............her friends did. They were the ones trying to convince her that she was raped and probably were the ones looking up his stats on their cell phones.

If your daughter acted like this girl, you've got bigger problems.

Of COURSE it's her fault.

So either she is an opportunistic liar or someone dragged into this by her meddling friends.

Also the "well if your kid did this then you have way worse problems" is always used and just completely ignores his far more substantial side in all of this.

The DA made that point but the now shamed and resigned officer who got to her as soon as they went to the cops did not make it very clear it didn't matter who Ben was now did he?

Preacher
04-17-2010, 10:34 PM
When asked if she had been raped, she said "no". How many times do you have to read that before it sinks in. She changed her story several times. Her friends stories kept getting wilder and wilder. The only stories that seemed consistant were from the two sober police officers that nobody wants to believe.

"He raped me" You should be so lucky, your drunk. Now, did he REALLY rape you? "I guess not"

Sure, I accept without thought that her changing her mind means she is lying. No one EVER processes things and doubts themselves. Especially in rape. No one EVER starts blaming themselves, ESPECIALLY in rape. :doh:


And again...........the DA made it very clear that it didn't matter who Ben was. He would have come to the same conclusion. The girl did not go to the police.............her friends did. They were the ones trying to convince her that she was raped and probably were the ones looking up his stats on their cell phones.

Which, IMO, makes her story that much more believable. Go look up the cases of rape victims that don't come forward, those who only come forward after confessing to someone else, and those who come forward right away.

Everybody keeps saying "what if that were you daughter". If your daughter acted like this girl, you've got bigger problems. And if this were your son, you would be screaming about the credibilty of the witnesses. It can't be both ways.

I keep saying it, because I keep wondering if the people would call their own daughers B1tches and slu ts. If they would vilify them as much as they are this young woman.

Preacher
04-17-2010, 10:37 PM
Well yes, that was ONE account. There is another where one of her friends says they "found her on the street 45 minutes later" and after discussions amongst them, went to find an officer.

Which story is it?

No reason what so ever why those two accounts are not two parts of the same story. She left, they found her on the street 45 minutes later, had a discussion about what happened and took her straight to the police.

Again, just because they have their own perspective doesn't mean they are lying. Its about reconstructing history. THere is nothing there that DENIES the reconstruction.

It doesn't mean Ben raped her. But it DOES mean that these girls probably are not making up what they are saying.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 10:38 PM
The officers seem to have a pretty good idea of the time line involved. They know when they were talked to and when Ben was at/left the club. They basically know when the event took place and the time they were approached did not seem to weigh too heavily.

Maybe anyone intent on committing a sexual assault should carry a stopwatch, so they know when they are home free (at least in the court of opinion).

HometownGal
04-17-2010, 10:50 PM
Yeah. Just so everyone is clear - it is well known that it was not zero DNA found, but trace amounts of fresh male DNA too small in number to use for matching purposes, right?

It is possible that she had sex with someone else that night before she and her fellow groupies decided to follow Ben and his entourage from bar to bar. :tt03:

I know it's another of the infamous conspiracy theories but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

SICA - I get what you're saying and I don't doubt whatsoever that Ben had some sort of sexual contact with this chick. All I am saying is that I don't believe he forced himself on her given the "evidence" that has been presented and which lack of direct evidence prompted the DA not to file formal charges against Ben.

Stone
04-17-2010, 10:50 PM
Maybe anyone intent on committing a sexual assault should carry a stopwatch, so they know when they are home free (at least in the court of opinion).

Yes because that is the only court this case is being tried...hmmm, I wonder why?

Wouldn't have anything to do with possible conflicting statements now would it?

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 10:58 PM
I think this website is one everybody should check out...not only for the articles about Ben but all the other horror tales of men who have been falsely accused of rape and how it affected their lives, even when exonerated. Rape is a horrible crime, but so is the false accusation. And it happens probably as many if not more times than actual and real rapes. This site is quite eye opening.....

There is also a copy of the letter the webmaster sent to DA Fred Bright......I found it very interesting.

http://falserapesociety.blogspot.com/

Sansi
04-17-2010, 11:00 PM
Let us all kneel and pray for the real victim in all of this, Big Ben.

Preacher
04-17-2010, 11:06 PM
It is possible that she had sex with someone else that night before she and her fellow groupies decided to follow Ben and his entourage from bar to bar. :tt03:

I know it's another of the infamous conspiracy theories but I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility.

SICA - I get what you're saying and I don't doubt whatsoever that Ben had some sort of sexual contact with this chick. All I am saying is that I don't believe he forced himself on her given the "evidence" that has been presented and which lack of direct evidence prompted the DA not to file formal charges against Ben.

HTG.

Do you think he was aggressive in his actions towards her? Not forcing himself on her, but aggressive towards her? (I'm interested in your own opinion, I know there is no "legal" evidence either way).

stillers4me
04-17-2010, 11:11 PM
HTG.

Do you think he was aggressive in his actions towards her? Not forcing himself on her, but aggressive towards her? (I'm interested in your own opinion, I know there is no "legal" evidence either way).

He raped her or he didn't. That was the charge in question. There were no charges. And it sounds like she was pretty aggresive herself. Maybe he should have filed the rape charges. Now wouldn't that be a kicker?

Shea
04-17-2010, 11:12 PM
The DA wasn't able to file charges without the cooperation of the accuser.

I wish you guys would remember that when flitting away why this case didn't find it's way into a court of law.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 11:16 PM
He raped her or he didn't. That was the charge in question. There were no charges. And it sounds like she was pretty aggresive herself. Maybe he should have filed the rape charges. Now wouldn't that be a kicker?

Yeah and what if HER bodyguards prevented HIS friends from getting to where he was. And what if her cop buddy disparaged Ben and warned him about how powerful he was. I am also pretty sure she lifted her skirt and displayed her privates to him. We have all been so blind. Has anyone post-assault trauma therapy for Ben?

LukesDad88
04-17-2010, 11:23 PM
One thing I'm confused about. Was there or wasn't there small trace amounts of seminal fluid found? Obviously not enough for a conclusive DNA model, but I have heard conflicting reports about whether any was found at all.

My bet if there wasn't any seminal fluids found? They were drunk, Ben aggressively went to third base, probably against some meek protests. but the act was never consummated. Still doesn't make the situation right. But it doesn't make him a serial rapist either.

I do find it disturbing though, how far so many of you are willing to go to defend the guy just because he's our QB. Best case scenario, he's a first class prick, that borders on being a sexual predator. That's the best case scenario. If it was anybody else and they did this to your daughter or sister, you and your friends would be taking the ass out back with a louiseville slugger.

Sansi
04-17-2010, 11:26 PM
One thing I'm confused about. Was there or wasn't there small trace amounts of seminal fluid found? Obviously not enough for a conclusive DNA model, but I have heard conflicting reports about whether any was found at all.

My bet if there wasn't any seminal fluids found? They were drunk, Ben aggressively went to third base, probably against some meek protests. but the act was never consummated. Still doesn't make the situation right. But it doesn't make him a serial rapist either.

I do find it disturbing though, how far so many of you are willing to go to defend the guy just because he's our QB. Best case scenario, he's a first class prick, that borders on being a sexual predator. That's the best case scenario. If it was anybody else and they did this to your daughter or sister, you and your friends would be taking the ass out back with a louiseville slugger.

Trace amounts of male sperm cells were found according to the 500+ page document released. Don't bother hanging your hat on that when talking with anyone. Logic to a defender says that this was of course from some other guy because she can only be a colossal tramp.

rich4eagle
04-17-2010, 11:34 PM
my guess in this whole incident is Ben has the dumbest bodyguards on the planet all should be fired..............and anyone so stupitd to in a mens room is real stupid


this whole escapade gets dumber by te day

El-Gonzo Jackson
04-18-2010, 12:04 AM
The DA wasn't able to file charges without the cooperation of the accuser.

I wish you guys would remember that when flitting away why this case didn't find it's way into a court of law.

Great point.

Those on this board who want to dismiss the entire ordeal as though Ben did nothing wrong are really sticking their heads in the sand.

No way that Art Rooney II would talk about suspending his 2-time Super Bowl winning franchise QB, or entertaining offers about trading him if it was just a case of Ben being victimized by a gold digger.

The short of it is, that Ben most likely acted immorally and possibly criminally.......but there wasnt enough evidence to prosecute and the accuser didnt want to go thru the trial. Its like saying that O.J. didnt do it, because he wasn't convicted.

WH
04-18-2010, 01:39 AM
I'm waiting for hoochie mama to turn up preggers.

MACH1
04-18-2010, 01:41 AM
The DA wasn't able to file charges without the cooperation of the accuser.

I wish you guys would remember that when flitting away why this case didn't find it's way into a court of law.

It doesn't always work that way. If the state decides to bring up charges, it doesn't matter what the accuser "wants".

fansince'76
04-18-2010, 01:48 AM
The DA wasn't able to file charges without the cooperation of the accuser.

I wish you guys would remember that when flitting away why this case didn't find it's way into a court of law.

No, according to Bright, they weren't able to file charges because there simply wasn't enough evidence to do so.

Q: Did her wish not to prosecute have any bearing on your decision here today?

A: Yes it made it easier, but had she not written and taken that position, the victim, her family, and her lawyers, that they did not want us to ,prosecute the matter at all – and they made it crystal clear in the letter – an honest answer is I would still be announcing the same result. We, based on the evidence here, don’t have enough evidence to prosecute.

http://nationalsportsreview.com/sports/us/d-wil/2010/04/12/da-fred-bright-transcript-plus-the-post-statement-interview/

Gnutella
04-18-2010, 02:32 AM
Ben Roethlisberger did something wrong, but it's very debatable that he did anything criminal. The case was dropped, never to be reopened. Statements from the alleged victim and her sorority sisters were so inconsistent, and evidence so sparse, that it only took the D.A. two days to say "**** it; I'm not prosecuting."

WH
04-18-2010, 05:14 AM
Hey look

http://www.randomimage.us/files/43343daab1668.gif

he's definitely DTF

Stone
04-18-2010, 08:24 AM
[QUOTE=LukesDad88;803165]One thing I'm confused about. Was there or wasn't there small trace amounts of seminal fluid found? Obviously not enough for a conclusive DNA model, but I have heard conflicting reports about whether any was found at all. [QUOTE]



Several hours before Mr. Bright sat down March 9 with investigators, Agent Ling learned from the crime lab that only a "minute" amount of male DNA had been identified from the rape kit tests...

Forensic evidence, it turned out, was scant. Although testing showed the presence of male human DNA from the woman, there was no way to match it to Mr. Roethlisberger or anyone else, according to Ted R. Staples, GBI's manager of forensic biology.

"It was an extremely small quantity of that, and there simply was not enough to generate a nuclear DNA profile from that male" Mr. Staples said. "We carried it forward and made an attempt [to obtain a DNA profile.] The only profile generated was that of the female."

Even with today's technology, the sample was so infinitesimal that nothing could be determined.

"Normally what we're looking for is about a nanogram of DNA, which is a billionth of a gram. A raisin weighs about a gram, so if you could cut a raisin into a billion pieces, we need one of those. So this particular result was far less than even a nanogram. There was something there. It just wasn't enough."

Mr. Staples said scientists could not discern the source of the DNA in the sample, whether it was from saliva, semen or something else.



http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051441-66.stm

Stone
04-18-2010, 08:27 AM
The DA wasn't able to file charges without the cooperation of the accuser.

I wish you guys would remember that when flitting away why this case didn't find it's way into a court of law.


So she makes a complaint of sexual assault/rape against a man and then almost immediately afterwards won't cooperate?


Investigators were having other issues. The accuser could not be reached. Special Agent Monica Ling, the lead investigator, tried to reach her "numerous times" over the weekend of the alleged assault without success.

Lee Parks, the woman's lawyer, finally called on the evening of March 7. Agent Ling said she wanted to take swabs from inside the woman's cheeks.

Mr. Parks said his client and her family were leery. They thought Milledgeville police had leaked information about the woman to the media.

Within two hours of making a report, the woman told Agent Ling, the media was calling her cell phone.

Mr. Parks added that the woman and her family were also upset that one of the Milledgeville detectives gave his private e-mail address to the family for sending pictures from the night of the incident. It was not clear why that bothered the family.

[B]After obtaining evidence from the woman, the next step was to interview her. Agent Ling reported having trouble reaching Mr. Parks the next week. When they connected, the attorney told the agent that his client was in therapy and could not help.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10108/1051441-66.stm

stillers4me
04-18-2010, 08:40 AM
Those on this board who want to dismiss the entire ordeal as though Ben did nothing wrong are really sticking their heads in the sand.

Completely wrong. People are arguing about whether or not an actual rape occured, not whether Ben is a dumbass.

SteelersinCA
04-18-2010, 12:10 PM
She also clearly stated that she was not raped when the police first asked her. Then it was maybe, then it was "kinda rape".

Would any of you want your own son charged and convicted based on these witness statements? I don't think so.

The DA clearly stated that even if the girl had not requested that no charges be brought, he still would have come to the same conclusion.....no charges. Numerous experts have looked ove the documents and stated that the DA made the right decision. Like it or not, Ben there wasn't enough evidence to bring charges so I don't understand why all the "armchair lawyers" think they could have done a better job and found a way to bring charges against him. Is it so hard to believe that both of them behaved like dirtballs and the girl got in over her head and needed a way out before she and her friends were charged with filing false reports? It doesn't mean that nothing happend, just that no crime was actually commited. I don't even know why it went beyond the first question.....which she answered "no".

#1 I'm not an armchair lawyer. I am a lawyer who has worked as a DA and now as a defense attorney.

#2 We put to bed the criminal aspect of this pages ago, perhaps you didn't read through them.

#3 My only point, you just conceded, Ben is a dirtball. Thank you.

SteelersinCA
04-18-2010, 12:14 PM
SICA - I get what you're saying and I don't doubt whatsoever that Ben had some sort of sexual contact with this chick. All I am saying is that I don't believe he forced himself on her given the "evidence" that has been presented and which lack of direct evidence prompted the DA not to file formal charges against Ben.

I agree, I have read the case file and would love to have Ben as my client if charges were filed. I don't think Ben is a rapist.

Prok
04-18-2010, 12:18 PM
Everyone has formulated their own opinion on the matter. And it seems we've all had the chance to voice our opinions here.`

Why can't we just let it go already and move on ?

:drink:

:tt:

stillers4me
04-18-2010, 12:22 PM
I agree, I have read the case file and would love to have Ben as my client if charges were filed. I don't think Ben is a rapist.

Don't forget he's still a dirtball. But is the fanbase really going to be happy with a decade of mediocre seasons if the Rooney's get rid of a dirtball? I'm thinking the dirtball won't look so bad, then.

SteelersinCA
04-18-2010, 12:26 PM
Don't forget he's still a dirtball. But is the fanbase really going to be happy with a decade of mediocre seasons if the Rooney's get rid of a dirtball? I'm thinking the dirtball won't look so bad, then.

Personally, I wouldn't lose sleep over it, but that's one reason I'm a Steelers fan, they don't put up with this. I bet you're right though about the fans who only care about wins.:drink:

Shoes
04-18-2010, 12:30 PM
Everyone go take a shower, the draft is this week. It's time for a new season, let's get geared for #7 :tt04:

Prok
04-18-2010, 12:41 PM
Everyone go take a shower, the draft is this week. It's time for a new season, let's get geared for #7 :tt04:

Rep'd. I'm really looking forward to us trading up for McClain.

:chuckle:

WH
04-18-2010, 12:45 PM
Everyone go take a shower, the draft is this week. It's time for a new season, let's get geared for #7 :tt04:

I'm way ahead of you, I already bought some pepper spray.

Shoes
04-18-2010, 12:47 PM
I'm way ahead of you, I already bought some pepper spray.

:chuckle::chuckle:

WH
04-18-2010, 01:02 PM
:chuckle::chuckle:

Oooooooh you meant THIS #7

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:4h2ncwLvHW9b7M:http://www.aarontorres-sports.com/images/stories/lombardi.jpg

I'm cleaning off my imaginary trophy case as we speak.