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View Full Version : Obama's faith advisor, Rev Jim Wallis, says the HC bill is "the heart of the gospel"


BrandonCarr39
04-21-2010, 04:32 PM
http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/100420

Jim Wallis wants to violate the 8th and 10th Commandments

By Bryan Fischer

Now that the health care "reform" monstrosity has been enacted into law, Democrats are falling all over themselves to admit that it really at bottom is all about the redistribution of wealth. Sen. Max Baucus says it is designed to correct the "maldistribution" of wealth. Socialist Christian Jim Wallis freely admits that health care is about redistribution, and then bizarrely claims that this is "the heart of the gospel."

Now there is no question that the Judeo-Christian tradition strenuously advocates the redistribution of wealth — as long as that redistribution is voluntary. You can hardly read a page in the gospels or in the epistles that does not encourage or model generosity toward the poor.

However, you will look in vain in the pages of New Testament for a single command to government to look after the poor. Expecting the government to do what God has entrusted to us is the ultimate copout.

The early historian said of the first century church that "there was not a needy person among them," not because Roman confiscated wealth from some to give to others, but because "as many as were owners of lands or houses sold them and brought the proceeds of what was sold and laid it at the apostles' feet, and it was distributed to each as any had need (Acts 4:34-35)."

Not only does the the Judeo-Christian tradition celebrate voluntary generosity, it categorically condemns the involuntary redistribution of wealth. The voluntary redistribution of wealth is charity. The involuntary redistribution of wealth is theft.

As Frederic Bastiat pointed out more than 150 years ago, when government forcibly extracts resources from some citizens to stick those resources in the pockets of other citizens, it's a form of theft. Just because government does it doesn't make it right. The involuntary transfer of wealth, whether done by a mugger at the point of a gun or by government under the color of law, is theft.

It is a violation of the 8th commandment, "You shall not steal." When government does it, it's nothing more than legalized plunder.

The difference between a statist worldview and a Judeo-Christian worldview can be boiled down to this: liberals believe that generosity is giving away other people's money, while conservatives believe generosity is giving away your own money.

Recent tax returns illustrate this point vividly. Before Barack Obama became president, his annual tax returns revealed that he gave less than one percent of his income to charity. Since he became president, he's raised his percentage to roughly the national average, likely for PR purposes, which means even then he is no more generous than the average conservative he demonizes as greedy and lacking in compassion.

And Joe Biden, according to his most recent return, gave 1.44 percent of his income to charity, well below the national average, which is somewhere between three and six percent. This means that the vice-president is stingier than the average American, and certainly stingier than most of the conservatives who make up the Tea Party movement.

The entire statist movement is predicated, then, on a violation of one of the longest standing moral principles in existence, the Bible's prohibition against stealing.

And if that were not enough, it's also predicated on a blatant violation of the 10th commandment, the one that prohibits the coveting of a neighbor's possessions. God could hardly be any clearer: "You shall not covet...anything that is your neighbor's."

What else is the involuntary transfer of wealth but an envious, class-driven resentment directed against those who are financially successful, accompanied by a lustful greed to take their money and transfer it to others?

American society faces a choice. Jim Wallis wants us to build social policy on violations of both the eighth and 10th commandments. Conservatives want us to build social policy on Jesus' words to love our neighbors as ourselves. I'm with Jesus on this one.

© Bryan Fischer

urgle burgle
04-21-2010, 07:19 PM
excellent post....bonus points for you.

Godfather
04-21-2010, 09:21 PM
Come on, everyone knows Jesus would have loved the individual mandate.

Vincent
04-21-2010, 10:51 PM
Now there is no question that the Judeo-Christian tradition strenuously advocates the redistribution of wealth — as long as that redistribution is voluntary. You can hardly read a page in the gospels or in the epistles that does not encourage or model generosity toward the poor.

Much of Christianity, if not all, is reciprocity. "Do unto others, to whom much is given, give and it shall be given, you shall reap what you sow, if you / I will, etc, etc, etc...".

Freedom itself is a reciprocal relationship. We are free to do as we ought to do. And included in what we ought to do is caring for those we are aware of in whatever measure we are able.

But these reciprocal relationships are of God, not gubmint. When gubmint seeks to redistribute wealth, it robs us not only of our wealth, but also our freedom to do as we ought, and that is the essence of who we are - our own free will.

Excellent post Newman!! Thank you.

ricardisimo
04-22-2010, 02:10 AM
I distinctly remember something about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. How then is paying taxes theft? And if the government is using taxes to redistribute wealth to the poor, how is that un-Christian?

Now, if you don't mind, I'll slip back into standard ricardisimo mode, and remind everyone that there is not a single redistributionist bone in Obama's body, nor in any elected Democrat or Republican's body, and that I agree with those Christians who say that socialism is un-Christian. They are completely right. Christianity is about personal salvation, and narcissistic tendencies of mythic proportions, with an all-knowing and all-powerful deity who devotes His every waking moment to the cultivation of your eternal soul. As Nietzsche put it:
...that in the totality of living beings the "salvation" of every single individual may claim eternal significance, that little prigs and three-quarter madmen may have the conceit that the laws of nature are constantly broken for their sakes—such an intensification of every kind of selfishness into the infinite, into the impertinent, cannot be branded with too much contempt.
That today's Christian loathes socialism is almost in and of itself enough reason for me to embrace it.

urgle burgle
04-22-2010, 11:49 AM
yeah, we got it that you hate and despise Christianity. weve gotten that from a majority of your posts. im sure you probably hate puppies and salamanders too. you dont have to inflict it on almost every post on almost every subject. again...................we got it.

ricardisimo
04-22-2010, 03:13 PM
yeah, we got it that you hate and despise Christianity. weve gotten that from a majority of your posts. im sure you probably hate puppies and salamanders too. you dont have to inflict it on almost every post on almost every subject. again...................we got it.

You had to bring up salamanders, didn't you? That settles it... It's on now! :pillowfight: :pin:

As far as inflicting everyone with my opinions on Christianity in every thread, umm... well, please read the thread subject line as well as every post before mine. :tap:

urgle burgle
04-22-2010, 08:21 PM
oh, i read everything, as i usually do, so that i get a full view of the conversation. it has nothing to do with the issue of you bringing up Christianity, that was part of the OP. its just how you feel a need to give us your opinion of said religion, in this post, and many others. you could discuss the OP and the other parts of the discussion without giving your disdain for Christianity, among other religions. i was just saying, that most of us know your feelings. im not a big fan of other certain religions, but i dont feel a need on displaying my disdain for those religions in most posts, if any. but, thats my opinion. as for the salamander issue, i had a feeling, but if it makes a good offer of penance, i dont like them either. i have a good story about how i used one to get my troops to get back to work once. but i wont inflict anyone with that......yet.

Godfather
04-22-2010, 08:27 PM
[QUOTE=ricardisimo;807282]I distinctly remember something about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. How then is paying taxes theft? And if the government is using taxes to redistribute wealth to the poor, how is that un-Christian?
/QUOTE]

Where did Jesus say we should be forced to turn over massive amounts of money to the rich, as the individual mandate forces us to do? Aetna is not Caesar.

ricardisimo
04-23-2010, 12:46 AM
Where did Jesus say we should be forced to turn over massive amounts of money to the rich, as the individual mandate forces us to do? Aetna is not Caesar.

You might want to ask Pat Robertson and Co. that question. I'm sure he'll give you a very interesting account of how Aetna fits into the Lord's plan. But your question hits on exactly what I was trying to point out: there's nothing "socialist" about Obamacare, regardless of how Jesus feels about it. It is "redistributionist" only if you include redistributing money upwards.

GoSlash27
04-23-2010, 06:08 AM
ricardisimo,
As far as inflicting everyone with my opinions on Christianity in every thread, umm... well, please read the thread subject line as well as every post before mine.
Most people here are aware that I'm not much on organized religion either. But our opinions of the religion itself are immaterial to this thread.

Moving on...

What really strikes me is that we're even having this discussion. The Constitution defines the role and powers of our government, not the Bible. Asking if this particular policy is in accordance with Christian values is like asking if your tire pressure is within the limits set forth in the Betty Crocker cookbook.

GoSlash27
04-23-2010, 06:13 AM
Also, what the Hell is a "faith advisor"?? :noidea:

urgle burgle
04-23-2010, 12:29 PM
I gues he advises faith. For those that scream "separation of church and state," why is this guy so enamored with advising on politics? To mention, that evidently it is OKd by the big guy. He is one of his personal faith advisers. He is part of the big guy's faith based spirtual cabinet. Is he, they, getting paid by the govt? Even if not, is it ok for them to be part of advising on policy? just posing questions for discussion....

BrandonCarr39
04-23-2010, 09:35 PM
I distinctly remember something about rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's. How then is paying taxes theft? And if the government is using taxes to redistribute wealth to the poor, how is that un-Christian?

Now, if you don't mind, I'll slip back into standard ricardisimo mode, and remind everyone that there is not a single redistributionist bone in Obama's body, nor in any elected Democrat or Republican's body, and that I agree with those Christians who say that socialism is un-Christian. They are completely right. Christianity is about personal salvation, and narcissistic tendencies of mythic proportions, with an all-knowing and all-powerful deity who devotes His every waking moment to the cultivation of your eternal soul. As Nietzsche put it:

That today's Christian loathes socialism is almost in and of itself enough reason for me to embrace it.

That particular passage was a DIFFERENT context - honestly, I think Jesus may have been referring to all these modern day 501c3 churches that are yoked up with the government - for allowing their congregation members to write off offerings on their tax returns, these churches have to give up some of their 1st ammendment rights.

Yes, it goes FAR beyond churches merely not allowed to endorse political candidates. For example, in order for the pastor to be liscensed, they have to go through seminary education, and then get liscensed THROUGH the state. The church has to recognize the STATE as the one that formed it(this is very unbiblical, b/c scripture says that CHRIST is the HEAD of the church, and noone else).The IRS can also choose a form of doctrine for the church(i.e. it's no coincidence that alot of churches did studies on nonsense junk like "Purpose Driven Life", Bill Hybels, and even Beth Moore - all of whom are false teachers that are leading the ecumenical movement). They can't call out and criticize other religions(i.e. pastors, for example, can't criticize Roman Catholicism, or even Buddhism from the pulpits). And they can't preach on the 2nd Coming of Christ either. Dr. Greg Dixon lost his entire ministry in the 1980's b/c he refused to abide by IRS rules --> http://www.unregisteredbaptistfellowship.com

Anyhow, didn't mean to derail this thread, but just wanted to point out the meaning of this particular scripture. When Jesus showed the Pharisees the coin with Caesar's inscription on it, he was warning them to NOT play into a Caesar-like government's hands.

BTW - Rev Jim Wallis makes a 7 figure income, wears $3K business suits, drives around in very expensive cars - if he's so concerned over the poor, then WHY doesn't he himself help the poor with all the wealth he makes? The man's a HYPOCRITE(and a modern day Pharisee to boot - whom Jesus rebuked quite a bit).

BrandonCarr39
04-23-2010, 09:44 PM
I gues he advises faith. For those that scream "separation of church and state," why is this guy so enamored with advising on politics? To mention, that evidently it is OKd by the big guy. He is one of his personal faith advisers. He is part of the big guy's faith based spirtual cabinet. Is he, they, getting paid by the govt? Even if not, is it ok for them to be part of advising on policy? just posing questions for discussion....

There's a big ecumenical movement going on now - there's the Emergent Church that's infiltrated and hijacked 100s of churches across the country(Rick Warren, Bill Hybels, Brian McLaren, Beth Moore, etc, and Billy Graham started doing it 50 years ago). Since the 1881 NIV, many different bible perversions have infiltrated their way into churches as well, one of them being the *New* King James Version, which has an occult symbol on its bible cover.

1st Tim 4:1-2 says in the latter days, many shall depart from the faith, heeding to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils, speaking LIES in HYPOCRICY, and having their consciences seered with a hot iron.

Ultimately, all of these so-called "evangelicals" that we see on the mainstream news(i.e. Warren, Joel Osteen, Graham and his son Franklin, Ted Haggard before he got into trouble, Paul Crouch, Rick Joyner, Todd Bentley before he got into trouble, John Hagee, Hal Lindsey, Tim LaHaye, Pat Robertson, the late Jerry Falwell, Joel Rosenberg, and now Jim Wallis, etc) are NOT REAL Christians. They're there for a purpose, and they're being paid, big time, to condition and deceive the masses to buy into this Dominionism Theology(which is really Communism in its true colors).

St33lersguy
04-23-2010, 09:45 PM
surprise, surprise :coffee:

GBMelBlount
04-23-2010, 10:04 PM
Much of Christianity, if not all, is reciprocity. "Do unto others, to whom much is given, give and it shall be given, you shall reap what you sow, if you / I will, etc, etc, etc...".

Freedom itself is a reciprocal relationship. We are free to do as we ought to do. And included in what we ought to do is caring for those we are aware of in whatever measure we are able.

But these reciprocal relationships are of God, not gubmint. When gubmint seeks to redistribute wealth, it robs us not only of our wealth, but also our freedom to do as we ought, and that is the essence of who we are - our own free will.

Excellent post Newman!! Thank you.

Excellent indeed.

It surprises me when "Christians" act as though the government FORCING one group to give their belongings to another, while lining their own pockets in the process, is somehow the Christian way..... :noidea:

An individual giving to others because THEY WANT to help others....makes more sense to me...

BrandonCarr39
04-23-2010, 10:26 PM
Excellent indeed.

It surprises me when "Christians" act as though the government FORCING one group to give their belongings to another, while lining their own pockets in the process, is somehow the Christian way..... :noidea:

An individual giving to others because THEY WANT to help others....makes more sense to me...

In 2nd Corinthians, Paul said that when we give, we have to be a CHEERFUL giver, one out of a GOOD heart.

This is also another big problem with today's church - pastors are hitting their congregations over the head with guilt to give 10% tithe of their income. For the record, tithing was an OLD TESTAMENT LEVITICAL LAW, and the old covenant/levitical law was DONE AWAY WITH with what Jesus Christ did at the cross(dying, shedding his blood, and resurrecting).

Anyhow - just wanted to throw that out, and further proves what Wallis is doing is WRONG.

urgle burgle
04-23-2010, 10:44 PM
ok...........we might want to box this thread up now, and send it on its way.

GBMelBlount
04-24-2010, 07:09 AM
In 2nd Corinthians, Paul said that when we give, we have to be a CHEERFUL giver, one out of a GOOD heart.

This is also another big problem with today's church - pastors are hitting their congregations over the head with guilt to give 10% tithe of their income.

I do understand your point T.

Fortunately, tithing, whether out of a GOOD heart, or feelings of obligation, to whatever degree, is still voluntary, right? :drink:

GBMelBlount
04-24-2010, 08:05 AM
ok...........we might want to box this thread up now, and send it on its way.

Perhaps you're right. Sorry if I offended anyone.

My point is simply that I feel there is a difference between forced versus voluntary giving. That's all.

Vincent
04-24-2010, 08:41 AM
My point is simply that I feel there is a difference between forced versus voluntary giving. That's all.

There's no such thing as "forced giving". One gives of his free will. Mafias and gubmints take what isn't theirs.