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GBMelBlount
05-10-2010, 11:01 PM
enjoy talking into the air... :blah:

:thumbsup:

Speaking of which, it looks like you will be approaching 30,000 posts.

Congratulations in advance. :chuckle:

tony hipchest
05-10-2010, 11:12 PM
Speaking of which, it looks like you will be approaching 30,000 posts.

Congratulations in advance. :chuckle:...4000 of which you have responded to. :sofunny:

:thumbsup: :irock:

ricardisimo
05-11-2010, 12:39 AM
Ricardisimo, these stats appear pretty damning imo.

Do you doubt either the stats or the major problems they are creating in California?

Can you explain WHY prop 13 or high end tax payers are a larger contributor to the problem?

They do appear very damning. I'd like to read the original article to see what else it has to say about this. SiCA... do you have a link for us?

However, my response was not so much to SteelerinCA's post as it was to MoP, who seemed to suggest that immigration was what has put the state in financial straits (rather than pie-in-the-sky budgeting at the peak of the real estate bubble, combined with Prop. 13, which restricts the state's ability to clean up its own mess). Despite all of "Mexifornia's" immigration, it seems to be doing rather well, relative to the rest of the nation.

As came up in this thread or another, California would be a top-10 economy globally if it were its own nation. That's despite its debt problems. And who cares about debt nowadays anyhow? We're in the post-Reagan era, where debt is something to be laughed at, nay, ridiculed and poked with sticks. The public debt in the U.S. is absurd. Is that because of immigrants?

MACH1
05-11-2010, 01:28 AM
They do appear very damning. I'd like to read the original article to see what else it has to say about this. SiCA... do you have a link for us?

However, my response was not so much to SteelerinCA's post as it was to MoP, who seemed to suggest that immigration was what has put the state in financial straits (rather than pie-in-the-sky budgeting at the peak of the real estate bubble, combined with Prop. 13, which restricts the state's ability to clean up its own mess). Despite all of "Mexifornia's" immigration, it seems to be doing rather well, relative to the rest of the nation.

As came up in this thread or another, California would be a top-10 economy globally if it were its own nation. That's despite its debt problems. And who cares about debt nowadays anyhow? We're in the post-Reagan era, where debt is something to be laughed at, nay, ridiculed and poked with sticks. The public debt in the U.S. is absurd. Is that because of immigrants?

Spin and deflect.

ricardisimo
05-11-2010, 01:59 AM
Spin and deflect.

Rinse and spit.

GoSlash27
05-11-2010, 07:37 AM
As came up in this thread or another, California would be a top-10 economy globally if it were its own nation. That's despite its debt problems. And who cares about debt nowadays anyhow? We're in the post-Reagan era, where debt is something to be laughed at, nay, ridiculed and poked with sticks. The public debt in the U.S. is absurd. Is that because of immigrants?

Just so we all know exactly where you stand. :coffee:

revefsreleets
05-11-2010, 11:19 AM
So, um........just wondering out loud here, but if the budget deficit for 09-10 is 6.3 billion, and the projected deficit for 10-11 is 14.4 billion (totaling about 20.7 billion)

http://www.lao.ca.gov/laoapp/PubDetails.aspx?id=2143

...AND illegal immigrants cost the government about 9 billion a year (mostly in education costs, and this study figured in the contribution illegals make to the economy....sorry, ric, you're wrong again)

http://www.nctimes.com/news/local/article_5cedf831-9d5d-5335-af7e-2af6730a577c.html

Errrrrrrrr....wouldn't California, ummmmmm, have a balanced budget if there were no illegal immigrants? In fact, considering that the immigrants have been running the state into the red for years, shouldn't CA have a huge budget SURPLUS if they were sans illegals?

Hate to deal with cited facts and figures, here, but....

WH
05-11-2010, 11:22 AM
politicians don't want facts, rev. they want BJ's from all their mamacita's

revefsreleets
05-11-2010, 11:27 AM
politicians don't want facts, rev. they want BJ's from all their mamacita's

I wasn't writing this for politicians, I was writing it for amateurish hack politicos who are trying to blame wealthy people not paying enough taxes for the illegals huge NET COST to the state of California.

This is akin to saying that a bank robber isn't really to blame for the cleaning out the bank vault, rather it's the fact that the wealthiest investors in the bank earn too much interest on their savings accounts.

MACH1
05-11-2010, 12:20 PM
UCLA Professor Calls For Mexican Revolution in the United States

IcefSGZlyBA


How does this make you feel?

SteelersinCA
05-11-2010, 12:22 PM
Dang it I like UCLA, hopefully they fire him. Lots of Mexicans consider California (along with the rest of the US SW) their land. I see more and more Aztlan stickers on cars here. It's a theory of annexation of the land along with some other hooey.

Are we sure he isn't just a TA?

ricardisimo
05-11-2010, 12:58 PM
Dang it I like UCLA, hopefully they fire him. Lots of Mexicans consider California (along with the rest of the US SW) their land. I see more and more Aztlan stickers on cars here. It's a theory of annexation of the land along with some other hooey.

Are we sure he isn't just a TA?

Hey there, SiCA... can you post the link to the LA Times article? I'd like to read the whole thing.

stlrtruck
05-11-2010, 01:02 PM
UCLA Professor Calls For Mexican Revolution in the United States

IcefSGZlyBA


How does this make you feel?

This guy was quick to say it's "The White" people keeping us down and keep us out of this country. This isn't about skin color, this is about illegal aliens of walks of life to include Mexican, Asian, Russian, African, Middle Eastern, etc.

As for the "stolen lands of Mexico", I guess they'll want to be paid now for the US "taking the land" from Mexico some hundreds of years ago.


Heaven forbid that people actually obey the laws of the lands in which they choose to decide.

And if by chance they could see past their narrow blinders to the fact that the illegal aliens put a drain on an already frail system. And that removing this land of those not here rightfully would free up greater resources for those who have gone through the proper government authorities to be here.

And if it weren't for capitalism, this guy would probably be working at a fast joint or some other low income establishment like the rest of us. Capitalism is what drives the markets, and if it weren't for people needing/wanting a higher education he'd be teaching kids in diapers!

SteelersinCA
05-11-2010, 01:24 PM
Hey there, SiCA... can you post the link to the LA Times article? I'd like to read the whole thing.

I cannot, it appears the article I was sent is questionable, here is what I came up with.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Not sure how anyone feels about snopes, but there it is.

MasterOfPuppets
05-11-2010, 02:03 PM
I cannot, it appears the article I was sent is questionable, here is what I came up with.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Not sure how anyone feels about snopes, but there it is.

actually snopes discredits some of the information.

SteelersinCA
05-11-2010, 02:33 PM
actually snopes discredits some of the information.

Yeah, I tried to find the article myself and that's what I came up with. As expected the original "article" was controversial.

ricardisimo
05-11-2010, 04:35 PM
I cannot, it appears the article I was sent is questionable, here is what I came up with.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/taxes.asp

Not sure how anyone feels about snopes, but there it is.

For being essentially amateurs, I think the folks at Snopes are quite reliable. They clearly like doing what they do.

Their synopsis of the bulk email reads rather reasonably: immigrants contribute to crime, but not on the levels suggested by the author(s) of this screed. Furthermore, after reading their comparisons to the actual data on hand, some of the points (#4 and #10 especially) illuminate the author's mindset and prejudices, I think.

MasterOfPuppets
05-11-2010, 04:51 PM
For being essentially amateurs, I think the folks at Snopes are quite reliable. They clearly like doing what they do.

Their synopsis of the bulk email reads rather reasonably: immigrants contribute to crime, but not on the levels suggested by the author(s) of this screed. Furthermore, after reading their comparisons to the actual data on hand, some of the point (#4 and #10 especially) illuminate the author's mindset and prejudices, I think.

actually your right ... the percentage of illegals committing crimes is actually 100 % ... hence the word "illegal" ... are they aware they are breaking US laws when they cross that border ? yep ...
if i break into your house,but don't steal anything , would i still be arrested and go to jail ? my only crime is not being invited into the house....sure i ate your food and used your bathroom and took a nap in your bed , but come on man...i didn't steal anything or kill anybody....no harm no foul right :hunch:
i would have asked permission but i thought you might say no since you don't know if i'm a criminal or not...

MasterOfPuppets
05-13-2010, 11:09 PM
Illegal immigrant student preparing to turn herself in

A Kennesaw State University student is preparing to surrender to the Cobb County Sheriff's Office, which says she gave a false address when she was arrested in March as an illegal immigrant.
Heredia protest the treatment of undocumented Kennesaw State University student

Jessica Colotl's lawyer, Chris Taylor, issued a statement Thursday in conjunction with several human rights organizations and Latino community groups saying that she is working with the Sheriff's Office to turn herself in. Taylor did not foresee any complications in her posting bond and being released from jail.

"It is obvious from all the documents that I’ve seen that she has done nothing wrong and has given her proper address to Cobb County and immigration officials," Taylor said. "There has been no crime committed. Jessica looks forward to defending herself against these false and baseless charges.”

Cobb County Sheriff Neil Warren said Colotl gave a fake Duluth address when she was booked into the jail March 30 on charges of driving without a license.

The Sheriff's Office began looking Wednesday night for Colotl, a native of Mexico.

Nancy Bodiford, a spokeswoman for the Sheriff's Office, said authorities were tipped off about the false address by a member of the media. A reporter went to the residence listed on Colotl's public booking records and discovered she did not live there.

Workers in the leasing office for the apartment complex at the address on the arrest warrant told The Atlanta Journal-Constitution that they didn't have anything "to share at this time."

Colotl has been in the United States for much of her life, coming here with her parents when she was 10. Friends said the family moved often until Colotl graduated from DeKalb County's Lakeside High School in 2006 with a 3.8 grade-point average.

Her troubles began March 29 when she was stopped on the KSU campus and charged with impeding the flow of traffic. She reportedly told the officer she had a Mexican driver's license but could not find it; she offered him a Mexican passport that expired in August 2007 as identification. While driving without a license is a relatively minor offense, making a false statement is a felony with a maximum punishment of five years in prison and a $1,000 fine.

The student, who will turn 22 next week, was arrested the next day, taken to the Cobb County jail and handed over to immigration authorities under an agreement the county has with U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the 287(g) program.

Colotl was then taken to the Etowah Detention Center in Alabama to await deportation.

At the urging of KSU President Daniel Papp, she was released May 1 and the federal immigration agency, Immigration and Customs Enforcement, gave her a year’s reprieve so she could complete her degree. Friends say she is two semesters away from graduating.

ICE spokesman Ivan Ortiz said Colotl was granted "deferred action" status, which did not change her immigration status but effectively delays her deportation. If conditions change, she could be placed back into removal proceedings.

Ortiz said ICE is waiting to assess the new charge before any decisions are made.

"Our priority is to remove those who pose the great risk to the security of our communities and national security," he said. "In this case, this woman is not a criminal alien. That does not mean we are going to look the other way and we are not going to process her. But our priority is the removal of dangerous convicted criminal aliens."

Colotl's situation has sparked debate between human rights groups and advocates for stronger immigration laws.

Human rights organizations and Latino community groups decried the sheriff's actions as being a "witch hunt" and a waste of money.

“We are very concerned that Cobb County is taking action against Jessica in retaliation for speaking out," said Mary Bauer, the legal director of the Southern Poverty Law Center. "We think these actions are illegal, and we’ll be in looking into that closely. This highlights the urgent need for Congress to reform our broken immigration system.”

D.A. King, an outspoken critic of what he says is lax enforcement of immigration laws, said the major concern is Colotl's enrollment at a public university.

"The focus of these violations should be on the Board of Regents [of the University System of Georgia]," he said. "The young lady who was in this country illegally is by far the most sympathetic figure in this mess."

University System spokesman John Millsaps with the university system said college applications do not routinely ask about citizenship, only about state residency. The question of immigration status becomes an issue only if a college applicant says he is from another country. Out-state-students and exchange students pay four times the in-state rate and Colotl was assumed to be a Georgia resident because she graduated from a DeKalb County high school.

Papp has said that Colotl will now be charged out-of-state tuition.

Others argued over whether a federal program that trains local law enforcement on immigration enforcement is Draconian or a necessary tool that should be applied the same for everyone.

Cobb was the first law enforcement agency in Georgia and one of a few nationwide to be accepted into the federal 287(g) program, an agreement with immigration officials to check the status of everyone taken into the jail. Cobb just renewed its contract with the federal government in October.

The 287(g) program was designed to find violent illegal immigrants, but critics say it more often catches minor offenders such as those violating traffic laws.

Debbie Seagraves with the Georgia office of the American Civil Liberties Union said local law enforcement abuses the program and the handling of Colotl was evidence of that.

Warren, the Cobb sheriff, defended the program in a written statement Thursday.

“I value any tool that helps me enforce the law and remove violators from our community," he said.

"It is obvious from all the documents that I’ve seen that she has done nothing wrong and has given her proper address to Cobb County and immigration officials," Taylor said. "There has been no crime committed.
Cobb County Sheriff Neil Warren said Colotl gave a fake Duluth address when she was booked into the jail March 30 on charges of driving without a license.
UHHHH OOOOK.... so driving without a liscense and giving the police false information is NOT a crime for ILLEGAL immigrants.....:doh:

Shea
05-13-2010, 11:58 PM
Damn, looks like someone is so caught up in this issue that they have crossed the dreaded line and have gone all guns a blazin' into hatred. That's always a no win situation.

But carry on ......

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q71/Tinkas82/hate2.jpg

Fire Haley
05-14-2010, 02:33 PM
I wish I could find a couple Mexicans I could pay cash for a days work - they have all disappeared around here - just when I need a couple ditchdiggers and lawn workers too.

Just my luck.

Edman
05-17-2010, 09:01 AM
On one hand, while it's the government's right to enforce their law, it's rather hypocritical of this country when it was founded on the blood and forceful destruction of other cultures.

That said, there is no wrong side to this tale, and that's why it's difficult.

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-17-2010, 09:18 AM
On one hand, while it's the government's right to enforce their law, it's rather hypocritical of this country when it was founded on the blood and forceful destruction of other cultures.

That said, there is no wrong side to this tale, and that's why it's difficult.

Name a country that wasnt founded on forced occupation at some point in its history.:noidea:

All a country can do is evolve into an inclusive society and open its doors to LEGAL immigration. Illegal immigration is wrong....no excuse...and our society is burdened with the financial and criminal element of it.

Edman
05-17-2010, 09:26 AM
All a country can do is evolve into an inclusive society and open its doors to LEGAL immigration. Illegal immigration is wrong....no excuse...and our society is burdened with the financial and criminal element of it.

And that is perfectly fine with me. Arizona is not wrong in finally doing something our dear president didn't have balls to do.

The question is that what about those legals in country who break the rules and bring illegals over here for cheap labor? What is going to be done about them?

Godfather
05-17-2010, 09:30 AM
I wish I could find a couple Mexicans I could pay cash for a days work - they have all disappeared around here - just when I need a couple ditchdiggers and lawn workers too.

Just my luck.

Well, according to Nick Saban you can go to Louisiana and get some Cajuns because they're all ditch diggers.

MasterOfPuppets
05-17-2010, 11:14 AM
On one hand, while it's the government's right to enforce their law, it's rather hypocritical of this country when it was founded on the blood and forceful destruction of other cultures.

That said, there is no wrong side to this tale, and that's why it's difficult.

and once again, what country wasn't ? did they always speak spanish in central and south america ?

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-17-2010, 12:58 PM
The question is that what about those legals in country who break the rules and bring illegals over here for cheap labor? What is going to be done about them?

Just as with illegal immigration...we need to enforce the rules that are already on the books.

The penalties for alien smuggling can be found in Section 274 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, under the former Immigration and Naturalization Service, or INS. After the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996 was introduced the number of sentences for smuggling offenses has risen. When smugglers are caught, some of the charges they can face include conspiracy, harboring, and transporting illegal aliens into the country. Each possible charge is considered a felony. If the smugglers are found guilty, each felony could result in up to 10 years in federal prison.
http://www.usimmigrationsupport.org/alien-smuggling.html

ricardisimo
05-17-2010, 03:36 PM
Just as with illegal immigration...we need to enforce the rules that are already on the books.

Sometimes the laws are wrong, and we don't need to think too hard about US history to find ripe examples of that. I and others submit that this is one of those laws. We'll see if it passes constitutional muster, although I'm hardly buoyant in my confidence in the SCotUS to do the right thing ever (especially considering the recent corporate personhood ruling... another thread, clearly).

Morally, I know where my compass points, and that's towards ordinary working folk. I'm tempted to start breaking out my usual complaints about Christianity, to see if I can prod any of you good people into asking yourselves:
http://www.truffleshuffle.co.uk/store/images/wtfwjd_t-shirt.jpg

MACH1
05-17-2010, 05:28 PM
We'll see if it passes constitutional muster

It's no more unconstitutional than what's already FEDERAL law.

I think you should be more worried how unconstitutional that obaaamacare is.

ricardisimo
05-17-2010, 05:40 PM
It's no more unconstitutional than what's already FEDERAL law.

I think you should be more worried how unconstitutional that obaaamacare is.

The health care law is utter crap, as I have stated repeatedly. It's about as unconstitutional as mandatory auto insurance.

NJarhead
05-17-2010, 05:42 PM
The health care law is utter crap, as I have stated repeatedly. It's about as unconstitutional as mandatory auto insurance.

Awe man! You've just ruined the streak. :applaudit:

WH
05-17-2010, 05:44 PM
The health care law is utter crap, as I have stated repeatedly. It's about as unconstitutional as mandatory auto insurance.

the car insurance thing sucks, alot. But it's not unconstitutional.

ricardisimo
05-17-2010, 05:47 PM
the car insurance thing sucks, alot. But it's not unconstitutional.

Exactly my point.

7SteelGal43
05-17-2010, 05:50 PM
Sometimes the laws are wrong, and we don't need to think too hard about US history to find ripe examples of that. I and others submit that this is one of those laws. We'll see if it passes constitutional muster, although I'm hardly buoyant in my confidence in the SCotUS to do the right thing ever (especially considering the recent corporate personhood ruling... another thread, clearly).

Morally, I know where my compass points, and that's towards ordinary working folk. I'm tempted to start breaking out my usual complaints about Christianity, to see if I can prod any of you good people into asking yourselves:http://www.truffleshuffle.co.uk/store/images/wtfwjd_t-shirt.jpg



You mean ordinary working folks that work hard at their job and pay taxes out of their wage like legal citizens do and follow the words of Jesus when He admonished us to "obey the law of the land" and "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars" ? That means pay taxes, by the way.

MACH1
05-17-2010, 06:02 PM
the car insurance thing sucks, alot. But it's not unconstitutional.

Do they make you buy it just for being alive?

NJarhead
05-17-2010, 06:04 PM
Do they make you buy it just for being alive?

Shhhh! :chuckle:

GoSlash27
05-17-2010, 06:30 PM
Dang it I like UCLA, hopefully they fire him. Lots of Mexicans consider California (along with the rest of the US SW) their land. I see more and more Aztlan stickers on cars here. It's a theory of annexation of the land along with some other hooey.

Are we sure he isn't just a TA?

:chuckle:

I would love to take them up on that someday, just to prove the point. We could hand Mexico all of California, and say half (each) of Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. Those places would become shit-holes just like the rest of Mexico and they'd start hopping our new fence.

It ain't about land, it's about people taking advantage of a broken system.
/ They can keep California...

WH
05-18-2010, 02:34 AM
Do they make you buy it just for being alive?

no, which is why it's not unconstitutional...

ricardisimo
05-18-2010, 02:58 AM
You mean ordinary working folks that work hard at their job and pay taxes out of their wage like legal citizens do and follow the words of Jesus when He admonished us to "obey the law of the land" and "render unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars" ? That means pay taxes, by the way.

I also remember some silliness about judging not, lest ye be judged yourself, and craziness regarding surrounding himself with prostitutes and other disreputables. Braceros might have been mixed in that group.

I'm familiar with rendering unto Caesar (and have been chastened mightily for daring to bring it up to the anti-tax crowd here in SFF) but I'd love to hear where he orders you to "obey the laws of the land". I don't remember much about religious matters, but I'm pretty sure that for him there was no law but the Father's.

Leftoverhard
05-18-2010, 09:51 AM
:chuckle:

I would love to take them up on that someday, just to prove the point. We could hand Mexico all of California, and say half (each) of Nevada, Arizona, and New Mexico. Those places would become shit-holes just like the rest of Mexico and they'd start hopping our new fence.

It ain't about land, it's about people taking advantage of a broken system.
/ They can keep California...

How about we just give them Iowa......It makes your skin crawl doesn't it?

7SteelGal43
05-18-2010, 11:54 AM
I also remember some silliness about judging not, lest ye be judged yourself, and craziness regarding surrounding himself with prostitutes and other disreputables. Braceros might have been mixed in that group.

I'm familiar with rendering unto Caesar (and have been chastened mightily for daring to bring it up to the anti-tax crowd here in SFF) but I'd love to hear where he orders you to "obey the laws of the land". I don't remember much about religious matters, but I'm pretty sure that for him there was no law but the Father's.


Most of us in the SF crowd aren't anti-tax, we're anti-taxed into oblivion. As for "no law but the Fathers", you kinda answered your own question when you stated you are familiar with "render unto Ceasar". I mean, taxation wasn't exaclty Gods law, now was it ? It'd be way too long a discussion to get into (not gonna do it), but in whole, the Bible teaches us to be subject to those in authority and obey (civil authority) unless it is contrary to God's law.

ricardisimo
05-18-2010, 02:14 PM
... but in whole, the Bible teaches us to be subject to those in authority and obey (civil authority)....

100% in agreement - at least with your assessment of the Bible in this little fragment.

7SteelGal43
05-18-2010, 02:34 PM
100% in agreement - at least with your assessment of the Bible in this little fragment.

ah, but without the "unless it's contrary to GOD's Law", it's not even a half truth, but your learning :thumbsup::chuckle:

zulater
05-18-2010, 02:50 PM
Exactly my point.

Difference being no one is forcing you to drive. You have the right to not get a license or own a car therefore you have the right not to buy automobile insurance. Or even better yet, you can actually own a car but choose not to tag it or drive it, and then not have to insure it.

But with mandatory health care you have no choice in the matter therefore it's unconstitutional. :hatsoff:

MasterOfPuppets
05-18-2010, 02:54 PM
Difference being no one is forcing you to drive. You have the right to not get a license or own a car therefore you have the right not to buy automobile insurance. Or even better yet, you can actually own a car but choose not to tag it or drive it, and then not have to insure it.

But with mandatory health care you have no choice in the matter therefore it's unconstitutional. :hatsoff:

plus you have the option to shop around and decide what insurance plan and company you want to deal with...:popcorn:

zulater
05-18-2010, 02:58 PM
plus you have the option to shop around and decide what insurance plan and company you want to deal with...:popcorn:

Yeah that too! :thumbsup:

ricardisimo
05-18-2010, 04:00 PM
Difference being no one is forcing you to drive. You have the right to not get a license or own a car therefore you have the right not to buy automobile insurance. Or even better yet, you can actually own a car but choose not to tag it or drive it, and then not have to insure it.

But with mandatory health care you have no choice in the matter therefore it's unconstitutional. :hatsoff:

This is extremely off-topic now, but... I'm not sure one can reasonably say that no one is forcing you to drive. Telephony, electricity, transportation, and some would argue health care among several others... to call these "optional" is stretching the truth at best. Extremely wealthy people can afford to call these optional, living in their biometric houses with peat roofs and solar water heating, surfboarding from Pacific Palisades to the office in Malibu, and self-medicating in all sorts of interesting ways...

Anyhow, it was just Mach being flip, and isn't germane here, I'd say.

MasterOfPuppets
05-18-2010, 04:31 PM
This is extremely off-topic now, but... I'm not sure one can reasonably say that no one is forcing you to drive. .

there's buses, cabs, trains....

NJarhead
05-18-2010, 04:37 PM
This is extremely off-topic now, but... I'm not sure one can reasonably say that no one is forcing you to drive. Telephony, electricity, transportation, and some would argue health care among several others... to call these "optional" is stretching the truth at best. Extremely wealthy people can afford to call these optional, living in their biometric houses with peat roofs and solar water heating, surfboarding from Pacific Palisades to the office in Malibu, and self-medicating in all sorts of interesting ways...

Anyhow, it was just Mach being flip, and isn't germane here, I'd say.

How many residents of Manhatten do you think even own and damn automobile? That's one example.

http://www.virtualsecrets.com/reality-imagination-motivational-poster.jpg

ricardisimo
05-18-2010, 04:51 PM
there's buses, cabs, trains....

OK, so we'll all move to Manhattan, as Warden suggests. In most of the country - and especially if you're working the fields - there's not exactly a lot of public transportation around.

That still doesn't touch on the other issues (electricity, telephony, etc.) Your options in the market without many or any of these things are severely limited unless you are already a person of means.

Normally I'm the one accused of derailing threads. I'm washing my hands of this one.

NJarhead
05-18-2010, 05:05 PM
OK, so we'll all move to Manhattan, as Warden suggests. In most of the country - and especially if you're working the fields - there's not exactly a lot of public transportation around.

That still doesn't touch on the other issues (electricity, telephony, etc.) Your options in the market without many or any of these things are severely limited unless you are already a person of means.

Normally I'm the one accused of derailing threads. I'm washing my hands of this one.

I'm sure all the midwestern farmers drive a ton per year too. :rolleyes:

You're reaching and desperately out of touch with reality Mr. Lalaland.

MACH1
05-18-2010, 05:10 PM
OK, so we'll all move to Manhattan, as Warden suggests. In most of the country - and especially if you're working the fields - there's not exactly a lot of public transportation around.

That still doesn't touch on the other issues (electricity, telephony, etc.) Your options in the market without many or any of these things are severely limited unless you are already a person of means.

Normally I'm the one accused of derailing threads. I'm washing my hands of this one.

Last time I checked there wasn't a federal mandate stating that you have to have a phone, electricity in your house or running water.

Vincent
05-18-2010, 05:51 PM
IYou're reaching and desperately out of touch with reality Mr. Lalaland.

LaLaLand East weighs in... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RMK9zxb5HyE&NR=1

ricardisimo
05-18-2010, 05:55 PM
Last time I checked there wasn't a federal mandate stating that you have to have a phone, electricity in your house or running water.

Not so sure about the running water part, but that wasn't my point anyhow. I'm saying it really doesn't matter whether there is a mandate or not. Life effectively mandates these things to anyone who wishes to get or ahead or even just keep afloat.

One of the rationales for allowing communities to either form their own utilities or appropriate/regulate badly-behaved private utilities was that the service provided had become functionally indispensable to daily life, and so the public had an interest in owning the utility or at a bare minimum regulating it.

Many would make the argument that health care is one of those indispensables, a point to which I alluded in response to your post:
I think you should be more worried how unconstitutional that obaaamacare is.
None of this has anything whatsoever to do with the AZ law. Let's move along.

43Hitman
05-18-2010, 10:25 PM
Say uncle first, cause you're getting your ass handed to you right now.:chuckle:

ricardisimo
05-18-2010, 10:41 PM
Say uncle first, cause you're getting your ass handed to you right now.:chuckle:

That's a remarkable take on the discussion, if I may say so myself. I suppose if you have the same problems with reading comprehension that Warden has, you would indeed feel that way.

I'm still waiting for anyone at all (with asterisks by Tony's and GoSlash27's names) to respond to my main point: no one really wants this problem to go away, because if we did, we'd make these jobs desirable to someone other than the poorest immigrants.

We simply can't have that.

NJarhead
05-18-2010, 10:50 PM
That's a remarkably unique take on the discussion, if I may say so myself. I suppose if you have the same problems with reading comprehension that Warden has, you would indeed feel that way.

I'm still waiting for anyone at all (with asterisks by Tony's and GoSlash27's names) to respond to my main point: no one really wants this problem to go away, because if we did, we'd make these jobs desirable to someone other than the poorest immigrants.

We simply can't have that.


BWAAAAAHAHAAAAAHAAAA!!!! :rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:


Oh....my.....goodness. Man, THAT is YOU!

You read an article where someone asks, "Can the Arizona state police ask me about my 1040EZ?" and you tell us, "SEE! It's unconstitutional!!!!"

Are you really that ignorant? REALLY???

:doh:

You've GOT to have personality issues man. C'mon now.

MACH1
05-18-2010, 10:51 PM
why should we cater to illegals and make anything more appealing to them?

To make the problem go away, lets start by trying to enforce the laws. That would be a good starting point.

tony hipchest
05-18-2010, 11:15 PM
why should we cater to illegals and make anything more appealing to them?

.well the lettuce in AZ and CA isnt gonna pick itself. we might wanna make those jobs more appealing to the 10% unemployed here in america. :noidea:

and for all the legal welfare recipients in CA, there is no shame in mowing ricardo's lawn for $7.50 an hour.

point is, once the well runs dry the illegals will look elsewhere for their "water". but the well isnt gonna run dry. the produce market would spoil, and weeds would overtake peoples lawns and they would have to swim in dirty pools in their back yards.

so remember...

wash your lettuce and dont pee in the pool, please.

and while we're at it, lets put the drug cartels and traffickers out of business and dry up that well, too.

GoSlash27
05-18-2010, 11:23 PM
I'm still waiting for anyone at all (with asterisks by Tony's and GoSlash27's names) to respond to my main point: no one really wants this problem to go away, because if we did, we'd make these jobs desirable to someone other than the poorest immigrants.

We simply can't have that.

I find it remarkable that this comment would come from someone who has yet to support his gross misrepresentations of the Arizona law despite repeated requests (asterisk by GoSlash27's name).

Despite the fact that you have shown complete unwillingness to respond in the same fashion you demand, I am more than willing to fulfill your request.

You are correct in the fact that the Democrats and Republicans in Washington don't want this problem to "go away" for their own political reasons.
But the majority of Americans do, and I count myself among them.
These people are being treated like a half a step above slave labor. No rights, no protections, deplorable living conditions. That needs to stop.
These people are also stretching the States to the breaking point with their demands on social services they don't support. That needs to stop also.

Yeah, I want this problem to go away. Namely back to Mexico while we make it easier for the people with clear criminal backgrounds and the willingness to succeed to join us as American citizens with all the rights and protections that entails.

/ will you be as willing to respond to the questions I've posed to you?

Shea
05-18-2010, 11:52 PM
I remembered this episode I saw awhile back, that I believe 20/20 produces, and looked it up on youtube. Here it is:

U5LDgOMr6jw

Unfortunately, it cuts off at the end and doesn't fully show what the man named Mario has to say, but enough is there to get the gist. I've never forgotten him, and he's worthy of watching the clip.

I think people like him have been categorized, villified, and ignored and have yet to be seen within the prism of humanity.

I know it's a complex issue, but c'mon guys, these are human beings. And please spare me about the laws, obviously if they were reasonable then they'd be embraced and followed.

MasterOfPuppets
05-19-2010, 12:11 AM
Immigrant crossings into Arizona on the rise
Increase comes as state is about to put into effect tough immigration law

NOGALES, Mexico - The migrants walk for days through miles of mesquite scrub, running low on food and sometimes water, paying armed drug thug "guides" and dodging U.S. law enforcement officers along the way. And still they keep coming.

The latest figures show that Arizona, which is about to put into effect the nation's toughest immigration law, also is the only border state where illegal crossings are on the rise.

While tightened security and daunting fences in Texas and California have made Arizona a busy crossing corridor for years, migrant smugglers now are finding new ways through the state's treacherous deserts.
Carmen Gonzalez, 27, recalled seven days and six nights of walking with her husband in the desert and being accosted by Mexican thugs with AK-47s, who demanded $100 bribes. They were later arrested at a safe house in Arizona.

"It was so hard and so ugly," Gonzalez said at a shelter in this Mexican border town, where she, her husband and her brother were staying after being deported. "I won't try again because we went through too much suffering in the desert."

Arrests on Ariz. border up 6 percent
New U.S. Border Patrol statistics show arrests on the Arizona border were up 6 percent — by about 10,000 — from October to April, even as apprehension of illegals dropped 9 percent overall. The agency uses arrests to gauge the flow of migrants; there are no precise figures on the number of illegal crossings.

Statistics from the Mexican side also show a rise in illegal crossings through Arizona.

Grupo Beta, a Mexican government-sponsored group that aids migrants, helped 5,279 people from January to April in the area across the border from Douglas, Ariz., compared to 3,767 in the same period last year, said agent Carlos Oasaya.

That's the same area where Arizona rancher Robert Krentz was fatally shot in March as he surveyed his property in an all-terrain vehicle. Authorities suspect an illegal immigrant who was headed back to Mexico and worked as a scout for drug smugglers.

The killing helped fuel the emotion around the Arizona law, which will empower police to question and arrest anyone they suspect is in the country illegally. It takes effect in July.

Immigration is likely to be at the top of the agenda Wednesday when Mexican President Felipe Calderon visits Washington and attends a state dinner at the White House. Calderon has condemned Arizona's law; President Barack Obama has called it "misguided" and promised to begin tackling an immigration overhaul.

Supporters of the Arizona law said Tuesday that the growth in arrests at the border didn't spur its passing.

Instead, it was a series of factors, including the discovery of a growing numbers of immigrant safe houses and a rise in crime by illegal immigrants who have injured and killed police officers, said state Rep. John Kavanagh.

Illegal crossings dropped in the 1990s
In the 1990s, increased enforcement and corrugated metal and chain-link fences dramatically cut illegal border crossings in California and Texas.

Overall, illegal immigration through those two states, New Mexico and Arizona has declined from nearly 1.2 million in 2005 to 541,000 last year, according to the Border Patrol. In Arizona, illegal crossings fell from 578,000 in 2005 to nearly 250,000 last year — before the recent rise.

Immigration experts have long predicted the decline in crossings would reverse as the U.S. economy recovers.
"The fact is that as long as there remains an economic disparity between the U.S. and Mexico and other Latin American countries, enforcement and sanctions and any other measure won't stop the flow of migrants," said Charles Pope, interim director of the Trans-Border Institute at the University of San Diego.

Despite the recent spike in illegal crossings into Arizona, entering the state illegally is getting tougher.

U.S. Border Patrol drones scan for drug and migrant smugglers in the desert. Twelve-foot steel walls now separate the crossings through Nogales, south of Tucson, and Agua Prieta across from Douglas.

The desert around the hamlet of Sasabe, a smuggling way-station of a few dozen houses, is a drug trafficking corridor used by the Sinaloa cartel. Migrants and Mexican officials say heavily armed drug traffickers have been demanding fees since at least 2007 to allow migrants to pass.
Gonzalo Altamirano, a 19-year-old mechanic from the southern Mexican state of Oaxaca, jumped over a fence into Arizona from Agua Prieta. He surrendered to authorities after waiting two days for a van that never arrived.

It was Altamirano's second time crossing illegally into the United States — he lived and worked in Oklahoma for nine months in 2007 before getting so homesick he returned to Mexico. He intends to try again.

"I'm poor and will always look for a way to cross," he said. "Even if they add more security or whatever."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37220345/ns/world_news-americas/

Shea
05-19-2010, 12:17 AM
http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q71/Tinkas82/hate2.jpg

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 12:48 AM
I find it remarkable that this comment would come from someone who has yet to support his gross misrepresentations of the Arizona law despite repeated requests (asterisk by GoSlash27's name).

Despite the fact that you have shown complete unwillingness to respond in the same fashion you demand, I am more than willing to fulfill your request.

You are correct in the fact that the Democrats and Republicans in Washington don't want this problem to "go away" for their own political reasons.
But the majority of Americans do, and I count myself among them.
These people are being treated like a half a step above slave labor. No rights, no protections, deplorable living conditions. That needs to stop.
These people are also stretching the States to the breaking point with their demands on social services they don't support. That needs to stop also.

Yeah, I want this problem to go away. Namely back to Mexico while we make it easier for the people with clear criminal backgrounds and the willingness to succeed to join us as American citizens with all the rights and protections that entails.

/ will you be as willing to respond to the questions I've posed to you?

Unless I am very much mistaken, SiCA answered your question extremely well, and I would be satisfied with his take. Personally, I'd go a little bit further than him and say that I view the law as an overt nudge-nudge-wink-wink to law enforcement, as in "You must arrest anyone who looks like an illegal immigrant... but don't engage in racial profiling. :wink02:"

I don't see many ways around that reality. Racial profiling is out of control as it is, and this law - despite whatever you might want to believe - effectively endorses profiling in day-to-day operations. I appreciate, as always, Vinny's honesty earlier, when he asked "So what if there's racial profiling going on? If all of the criminals are of the same race what's the problem?" I think he is - emotionally at least - much nearer the mark than you. And again, this is a very emotional issue.

MACH1
05-19-2010, 12:53 AM
.

I know it's a complex issue, but c'mon guys, these are human beings. And please spare me about the laws, obviously if they were reasonable then they'd be embraced and followed.


Illegal is still illegal, a criminal is a criminal.

Illegal Alien Kills Little Frankie Blue Eyes Brooks In Front Of His Family
XhovjSi0NLk

More Americans Killed By Illegal Aliens Than In Iraq
6Lb3oFzCj_0


Another kid killed by Illegal Alien
WuOvCKC9Qs

Spare you the laws?

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 12:57 AM
Oh, and if your question was whether or not the US has a right to control its borders and immigration, the answer is yes, of course. There were critiques raised from across the spectrum regarding the practicality of our current immigration policy. I didn't think we needed to touch upon this, since almost everyone agreed that the laws as they stood were on the ridiculous side; too expensive for working folk, skewed numbers towards Sweden and away from Guatemala, inflexible with regards to simple work visas, etc., etc.

We can cover these topics again, if you'd like. I happen to be for more open borders and freedom of movement than what most people are comfortable with, but that is not the same as claiming that the US doesn't have to regulate travel across its borders.

SteelersinCA
05-19-2010, 01:02 AM
Unless I am very much mistaken, SiCA answered your question extremely well, and I would be satisfied with his take. Personally, I'd go a little bit further than him and say that I view the law as an overt nudge-nudge-wink-wink to law enforcement, as in "You must arrest anyone who looks like an illegal immigrant... but don't engage in racial profiling. :wink02:"

I don't see many ways around that reality. Racial profiling is out of control as it is, and this law - despite whatever you might want to believe - effectively endorses profiling in day-to-day operations. I appreciate, as always, Vinny's honesty earlier, when he asked "So what is there's racial profiling going on? If all of the criminals are of the same race what's the problem?" I think he is - emotionally at least - much nearer the mark than you. And again, this is a very emotional issue.

If I may, I think you are coming at the issue from 2 different perspectives. Ricardisimo is looking at the practicality of the law or the way it will be implemented. GoSlash and Warden and the rest are looking at it as a black letter of the law issue. You are both right in my estimation, whatever that is worth.

Facially, as I've stated before, it appears like a good law. Now I haven't been able to find the legislative intent behind it because it's so new, it should come out soon, but it must pass strict scrutiny, imho. It very well may or of course the SCOTUS could throw us a curve ball and refuse to hear it or have an appellate court say it doesn't need to follow strict scrutiny because it is merely mirroring a federal law. Be that as it may, I think the law will pass constitutional muster.

The application of the law is where the scary part comes in and I am confident Hispanics will be profiled. People driving at 2 in the morning are profiled, it happens all the time. There are plenty of police officers on this board who should admit it happens. It's a dangerous line to walk.

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 01:20 AM
Illegal is still illegal, a criminal is a criminal.

Illegal Alien Kills Little Frankie Blue Eyes Brooks In Front Of His Family

More Americans Killed By Illegal Aliens Than In Iraq


Another kid killed by Illegal Alien


Spare you the laws?

I'm not getting what this has to do with the Arizona law. How are Arizona police precluded from investigating crimes committed by immigrants?

Does your post mean you either approve of, or can look the other way when little kids are killed by citizens?

Shea
05-19-2010, 01:21 AM
Love you and your posts Mach, but I'm not watching what you have offered up.

And without seeing it I know to say this:

Where is your humanity?

MACH1
05-19-2010, 01:33 AM
Love you and your posts Mach, but I'm not watching what you have offered up.

And without seeing it I know to say this:

Where is your humanity?

My humanity is here legally. :noidea:

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 01:33 AM
and for all the legal welfare recipients in CA, there is no shame in mowing ricardo's lawn for $7.50 an hour.

I pay a living wage, mein freund... $7.75!!

MACH1
05-19-2010, 01:34 AM
I'm not getting what this has to do with the Arizona law. How are Arizona police precluded from investigating crimes committed by immigrants?

Does your post mean you either approve of, or can look the other way when little kids are killed by citizens?


:doh:

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 01:39 AM
:doh:

Ummm... :pizza: ? Or maybe :police: ? I dunno... :yeehaw: ??

You people love your emoticons.

MACH1
05-19-2010, 01:50 AM
Ummm... :pizza: ? Or maybe :police: ? I dunno... :yeehaw: ??

You people love your emoticons.

By your reply I can tell that you approve of, or can look the other way when it's by an illegal.

Steeldude
05-19-2010, 01:50 AM
i have yet to hear any of the liberals give a suggestion on how to stop illegal immigration and how to get rid of illegal aliens. all i hear is "you can't do that" and "that's racist", but never any answers to solve the problem

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 02:18 AM
i have yet to hear any of the liberals give a suggestion on how to stop illegal immigration and how to get rid of illegal aliens. all i hear is "you can't do that" and "that's racist", but never any answers to solve the problem

You can look at any of my 97,000 posts in this or the other "Arizona" thread. Mind you, I'm not a liberal, but I did give my suggestions of how to resolve the problem: make the jobs that are always available to the poorest immigrants attractive to citizens. That means a living wage (http://www.livingwage.geog.psu.edu/) and decent working conditions (http://www.aflcio.org/aboutus/thisistheaflcio/ecouncil/ec08082006b.cfm). That also means (to Tony's point) that you and I will be paying quite a bit more for our produce. I'm game. Are you?

Workers go where there's work, and despite our double-digit unemployment in this country, these jobs are still available to immigrants. That is criminal. It's also being consciously manipulated by people with an interest in maintaining slave wages. Who would that be? My guess is that it is the people making profits off of these immigrants' labor. Maybe you have a better guess. Whoever it is, stick them in jail, instead of the folks doing the work.

We could regulate the pertinent industries, or rely on heavy fines, penalties and even jail time for the employers to correct the problem. Take your pick. Any and all of these things would contribute to a fix. Telling desperately poor people that they cannot work to feed themselves and their families will not help. They'll just get more desperate over time and find new ways in.

There's other stuff as well, stuff that mostly belongs in numerous other threads, like eliminating NAFTA, or not overthrowing Latin American governments, enforcing US wages and labor practices at US facilities abroad (can you imagine what even our pathetic minimum wage would do for Mexico?) I'm just making stuff up now off of the top of my head, so I have to assume that if we really tried you and I could come up with several hundred decent ideas.

Unfortunately, none of it matters, because no one wants the problem to go away... No one that matters, that is. Sure, the overwhelming majority of Americans want the problem to go away, but who cares what they have to say? Their opinion only matters in whatever system of government that is where majority opinion sets policy... I forget what it's called... some weird Greek name. Vincent assures me that it's for the best anyway; he can explain it to you, I'm sure.

Go take your gripe to the big bosses.

ricardisimo
05-19-2010, 02:28 AM
By your reply I can tell that you approve of, or can look the other way when it's by an illegal.

:doh:

How's that?

GoSlash27
05-19-2010, 07:20 AM
Personally, I'd go a little bit further than him and say that I view the law as an overt nudge-nudge-wink-wink to law enforcement, as in "You must arrest anyone who looks like an illegal immigrant... but don't engage in racial profiling. :wink02:"

*Personally*, you've said a lot of things about this law that are patently false. You "view" the law in a way that's completely unrelated to reality. I suspect you've posted the reason for it below:

And again, this is a very emotional issue.

It certainly appears to be in your case, but not for all of us.

Leftoverhard
05-19-2010, 10:55 AM
Page 33 (and others) of this thread proves that if you can't 'win' an argument, make your 'opponent' say things he's said many times before and pretend you can't read. Also post emoticons - many emoticons - and then call people 'emotional'. Whatever you do, never admit that other people can be right about things, especially if it goes against the staunch instructions of some guy on morning radio.

By the way - nice job Ric - I've learned a lot.

Vincent
05-19-2010, 12:21 PM
That'll fix yerasses. :argue: :flex: :flap: :toofunny: :rofl: :danceshout:

http://www.nbclosangeles.com/news/local-beat/Power-Play-Over-Immigration-Law-94251079.html

Power Play Over Immigration Law
LA's boycott resolution sparks a threat over power the city receives from Arizona

An Arizona utility commissioner said he's willing to pull the plug on Los Angeles if the city goes through with a boycott of his state.

In a letter to the city of LA, a member of Arizona's power commission said he would ask Arizona utility companies to cut off the power supply to Los Angeles. LA gets about 25 percent of its power from Arizona.

"That is one commissioner who has that idea -- whether he can do that or not is another idea," said LA Councilman Dennis Zine. "They are the ones who have to make the move, not us."

The commissioner's power grid play is in response to the city's approval of a resolution directing city staff to consider which contracts with Arizona can be terminated.

Here's part Arizona Corporation Commission member Gary Pierce's letter to the mayor:

If an economic boycott is truly what you desire, I will be happy to encourage Arizona utilities to renegotiate your power agreements so Los Angeles no longer receives any power from Arizona-based generation.

I am confident that Arizona’s utilities would be happy to take those electrons off your hands. If, however, you find that the City Council lacks the strength of its convictions to turn off the lights in Los Angeles and boycott Arizona power, please reconsider the wisdom of attempting to harm Arizona’s economy.

Mayor Villaraigosa is in Washington D.C., meeting with Mexican President Felipe Calderon, but his deputy chief of staff issued the following statement: "The mayor stands strongly behind the city council and he will not respond to threats from the state that has isolated itself from an America that values freedom, liberty and basic civil rights." :blah: :jerkit: off in yer hat a$$hole!

Councilmember Tom LaBonge said he'd like to talk with Pierce. LaBonge said the city needs to look into its long standing utility agreements with Arizona.

Other California cities, including Oakland and San Francisco, have passed similar measures.

On Tuesday, Berkeley became the latest California city to boycott Arizona. The City Council voted unanimously to restrict staff from traveling to the state on city business.

SB 1070 (http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070s.pdf) empowers local law enforcement to check the immigration status of suspects they have stopped for other reasons if there is a reasonable suspicion they are in the country illegally. The law specifically bars police from racial profiling.

The Arizona Republic newspaper recently asked a panel of experts to outline how the law would work in real-world situations. The experts' interpretations varied when it came to what happens at the point a law enforcement officer can or should ask about a person's status.