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polamalubeast
04-25-2010, 07:16 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao2IZjWLXY8

finish the game=37PTS(11/17)12reb and 11 AST

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rji02ax1xZA

:applaudit:

polamalubeast
04-25-2010, 07:27 PM
http://www.nba.com/games/20100425/CLECHI/gameinfo.html?ls=gt2hp0040900104#nbaGIboxscore

xfl2001fan
04-26-2010, 08:59 AM
Dude is a freaking beast...and despite playing at a much slower pace than "Big O" did back in the day...I think he's a guy who could average a Triple Double in a season. It'd be much closer to 20 10 10 (as opposed to the 30+ 10 10)...but still.

Nadroj 20
04-26-2010, 09:43 AM
He is the best player in the NBA for sure:

polamalubeast
04-26-2010, 11:57 AM
game 4(lebron)vs bulls

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Im6zxgqZr3s

polamalubeast
04-27-2010, 10:58 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GDcaRu0oV84

Venom
05-07-2010, 07:47 AM
Here in New York City , all sports radio are talking about is July 1st . Thats when free agency starts and the Knicks can try to get James here . If I was a betting man , he wont be a Knick.

xfl2001fan
05-07-2010, 09:07 AM
Here in New York City , all sports radio are talking about is July 1st . Thats when free agency starts and the Knicks can try to get James here . If I was a betting man , he wont be a Knick.

I think that the Nets have a better chance of landing him than the Knicks do. They have some cash...they likely have the 1st overall pick...and Brook Lopez + Devin Harris is a nice combination of players. If they trade Devin Harris for (?) and can get a nice player back in return...you'd have Lopez + James + Wall (because why else would they trade D-Harris) as a strong trio...

If D-Harris stays, Lopez - PF - Lebron - Evan Turner (Lebron Lite)- Devin Harris as a starting rotation. Lots of youth there...lots of length (Turner is a big 2, small 3).

Honestly, I'm more concerned with Lebron going to Chicago than anywhere else. Because Noah + Lebron + Rose is a killer trio that would be an absolute monster. That scares me more than him hooking up with Wade in Miami.

steelerdude15
05-07-2010, 11:51 AM
Here in New York City , all sports radio are talking about is July 1st . Thats when free agency starts and the Knicks can try to get James here . If I was a betting man , he wont be a Knick.
I know that's all I heard from the my best friend who is from Long Island.... If I was Lebron I'd stay with the Cavs... I bet people in Cleveland are going to hate him if he leaves.

revefsreleets
05-07-2010, 12:25 PM
His HS coach (who he is VERY close with) as well as Dan Gilbert seem to be fairly convinced he's coming back as a Cav. The things he said at his presser for the MVP were very complimentary to the greater Akron area, and it seems to me he really does love it here. And he knows his leaving will REALLY hurt NEO...

Steel_12
05-07-2010, 01:26 PM
All that talent and can't take his team to the title.

revefsreleets
05-07-2010, 01:43 PM
All that talent and can't take his team to the title.

All that talent, and Michael Jordon took 7 years to take his team to a title.

Oh, look here....it's LeBron's 7th year! Imagine that...

Steel_12
05-07-2010, 01:51 PM
He had the best record in the NBA last year and FAILED. Best record in the NBA this year and will FAIL. He is not Jordan...he doesn't know how to use his teammates in the 4th quarter.

Boston should be up 2-0 right now...

Nadroj 20
05-07-2010, 01:55 PM
He had the best record in the NBA last year and FAILED. Best record in the NBA this year and will FAIL. He is not Jordan...he doesn't know how to use his teammates in the 4th quarter.

Boston should be up 2-0 right now...

LOL....he is one of the best passers in the NBA and when the 4th quarter comes around LEBRON is the person they want to have the ball....ummm because hes the best player!

revefsreleets
05-07-2010, 02:04 PM
Steel 12 isn't real bright to begin with....please don't further confuse him with facts and solid, well-reasoned out logic.

Steel_12
05-07-2010, 02:23 PM
LOL....he is one of the best passers in the NBA and when the 4th quarter comes around LEBRON is the person they want to have the ball....ummm because hes the best player!

What I'm saying is that his teammates stand around and watch him in the 4th quarter. He feels the need to takeover in the 4th instead of playing team ball. That's why he averages the most points in the 4th quarter. But that doesn't work in the playoffs.

Steelers Fever Backwards Guy...:blah:. You don't need logic when you have facts and the fact is that he didn't win with the best team last year. And he won't win with the best team this year. Blaming the elbow is bs...Kobe plays with a broken finger for a whole season and he never winces or complains. Bron Bron needs to toughen up.

But like I said, he won't win a title playing team ball 3 quarters.

xfl2001fan
05-07-2010, 03:12 PM
All that talent and can't take his team to the title.
He's taken his team to the finals before...with significantly less talent.
He had the best record in the NBA last year and FAILED. Best record in the NBA this year and will FAIL. He is not Jordan...he doesn't know how to use his teammates in the 4th quarter.
Boston should be up 2-0 right now...
So Lebron failed...not the Cleveland Cavaliers (not Mo Williams who went ice cold in the playoffs...or Delonte West who was too small to cover Hedo Turkoglu...not Anderson Varejao who couldn't keep up with Rashard Lewis as a PF...or Dwight Howard as a C...not Z for not being able to play Dwight Howard as a C). Not, it has to be Lebron who failed last year. Despite having (statistically) one of the greatest all time performances. You do realize it takes a TEAM to win...not just one great player.

Boston should be at 1-1 right now...because Lebron, Mo (and company) prevented that from happening by closing out Game 1 with a very strong performance. Notice, it took some of Lebron's teammates to step it up against a TEAM that plays great TEAM ball in the playoffs.

What I'm saying is that his teammates stand around and watch him in the 4th quarter. He feels the need to takeover in the 4th instead of playing team ball. That's why he averages the most points in the 4th quarter. But that doesn't work in the playoffs.
Yes, he feels the need to take over in the 4th because that's what his teammates expect him to do. He does have a lot of 4th quarter points...did you know he also has a lot of 4th quarter assists too? Assists = passing the ball to teammates (who then make a shot...) In the playoffs, you need for your entire TEAM to play 4 quarters of basketball to win...and that's something Lebron has never had happen. It's always been him. He can't help it that the talent around him is what it is...he can only do the best he can with what he's got. That's why it took Michael 7 years to win a title. Lebron is still looking for his "Pippen".
Steelers Fever Backwards Guy...:blah:. You don't need logic when you have facts and the fact is that he didn't win with the best team last year. And he won't win with the best team this year. Blaming the elbow is bs...Kobe plays with a broken finger for a whole season and he never winces or complains. Bron Bron needs to toughen up.
Having the best regular season win total doesn't make you the best TEAM. TEAM ball involves movement, passing and other players stepping up when the going gets tough. Last year, Mo (his #2 sidekick) went ice cold...and neither MJ nor Kobe would win on a team where Delonte West is his 2nd best player...so why you think Lebron should be able to...I just don't know.

This team is a much stronger/deeper team than last year...but it still requires people to step up their game. Right now, they've done it for 1 half of basketball. Hopefully tonight, they'll put together two strong halves and blow out Boston. Of course, this is hardly the first strong/solid team to trip up in the 2nd round. LA looked awful last year against Houston. In fact, every team since the 01 Lakers that's won the ship had an ugly outing in the 2nd round.
But like I said, he won't win a title playing team ball 3 quarters.

You're right...Lebron needs for his TEAMMATES to step up and play TEAM ball instead of just standing around. The HEAD COACH needs to COACH the team to stick with the gameplan of playing TEAM ball...and Lebron also needs to enforce the TEAM ball concept. However...in the playoffs, there are no INDIVIDUAL winners. Kobe won when he had SHAQ or GASOL. Name one guy on the Cavs that compares to Shaq (2000-2003) or Gasol now? There isn't one guy (outside of Lebron) of that caliber on their roster at this moment. Not one.

IF the Cavs don't win it...it's because (despite the fact that this is the most talented team Cleveland has had during the Lebron era) of talent deficiencies/matchup issues. Personally, I think the Cavs need to run a lot more than what they are doing. Make Boston pay for their physicality by making them too tired to be physical.

Steel_12
05-07-2010, 04:02 PM
He's taken his team to the finals before...with significantly less talent.

So what...If you're not first, you're last! lol

So Lebron failed...not the Cleveland Cavaliers (not Mo Williams who went ice cold in the playoffs...or Delonte West who was too small to cover Hedo Turkoglu...not Anderson Varejao who couldn't keep up with Rashard Lewis as a PF...or Dwight Howard as a C...not Z for not being able to play Dwight Howard as a C). Not, it has to be Lebron who failed last year. Despite having (statistically) one of the greatest all time performances. You do realize it takes a TEAM to win...not just one great player.

Yes he failed...along with the other players on the team. I didn't mention them because they aren't the leader. I just said that it takes a TEAM but Cleveland sits around and watches Queen James in the 4th quarter.

Boston should be at 1-1 right now...because Lebron, Mo (and company) prevented that from happening by closing out Game 1 with a very strong performance. Notice, it took some of Lebron's teammates to step it up against a TEAM that plays great TEAM ball in the playoffs.

Exactly my point...the TEAM closed out the game by not sitting around and watching LeBron try to close the game out.

Yes, he feels the need to take over in the 4th because that's what his teammates expect him to do. He does have a lot of 4th quarter points...did you know he also has a lot of 4th quarter assists too? Assists = passing the ball to teammates (who then make a shot...) In the playoffs, you need for your entire TEAM to play 4 quarters of basketball to win...and that's something Lebron has never had happen. It's always been him. He can't help it that the talent around him is what it is...he can only do the best he can with what he's got. That's why it took Michael 7 years to win a title. Lebron is still looking for his "Pippen".

He has the ball in his hands more than 98% of the league (my stat lol) so I'm not surprised he has a lot of assists. I bet that when he does have a lot of assists in the 4th quarter, his team wins most of them. Did you not read what I said? I've already stated that he needs to play TEAM ball in the 4th quarter to win. He's got plenty of talent around him...don't give me that bs.

Having the best regular season win total doesn't make you the best TEAM. TEAM ball involves movement, passing and other players stepping up when the going gets tough. Last year, Mo (his #2 sidekick) went ice cold...and neither MJ nor Kobe would win on a team where Delonte West is his 2nd best player...so why you think Lebron should be able to...I just don't know.

When you beat everybody in the regular season, what does it make you? Even though the West has been a stronger conference for YEARS now, his Cavs have beaten them during the regular season. What part of LeBron needs to play TEAM ball in the 4th aren't you understanding? That ball movement, passing and other players stepping up can't happen if they are standing around watching LeBron hold the ball for 21 seconds and then hoisting up a 3 or bullrushing the rim!

This team is a much stronger/deeper team than last year...but it still requires people to step up their game. Right now, they've done it for 1 half of basketball. Hopefully tonight, they'll put together two strong halves and blow out Boston. Of course, this is hardly the first strong/solid team to trip up in the 2nd round. LA looked awful last year against Houston. In fact, every team since the 01 Lakers that's won the ship had an ugly outing in the 2nd round.

I wouldn't say LA looked awful last year...I would say that they took HOU for granted without Yao. But you can't compare that team to the Cavs this year only because your star player is injured and can't seem to play through it. Let's hope Boston holds home court advantage.

You're right...Lebron needs for his TEAMMATES to step up and play TEAM ball instead of just standing around. The HEAD COACH needs to COACH the team to stick with the gameplan of playing TEAM ball...and Lebron also needs to enforce the TEAM ball concept. However...in the playoffs, there are no INDIVIDUAL winners. Kobe won when he had SHAQ or GASOL. Name one guy on the Cavs that compares to Shaq (2000-2003) or Gasol now? There isn't one guy (outside of Lebron) of that caliber on their roster at this moment. Not one.

The Lakers have no bench but Cleveland does. Why ya'll don't play Hickson more is beyond me. I do know that Jamison can hold his own with anybody on the offensive end...he hasn't played D since UNC lol. Nobody can compart to Shaq back then but you have it backwards. Shaq was the man on those teams, not Kobe (even though he closed out the games).

IF the Cavs don't win it...it's because (despite the fact that this is the most talented team Cleveland has had during the Lebron era) of talent deficiencies/matchup issues. Personally, I think the Cavs need to run a lot more than what they are doing. Make Boston pay for their physicality by making them too tired to be physical.

I agree that the Cavs need to run more. I just dont' see them beating Orlando even if they get past Boston. I can't understand how LeBron can take them to the best record in the regular season but fizzle in the playoffs. He's trying to hard to get that ring instead of playing like he played to get them the #1 seed



IMO

xfl2001fan
05-07-2010, 04:21 PM
So what...If you're not first, you're last! lol
So true...but LEBRON has carried this team farther than any other superstar (including Kobe) could have done. Period. Because he does more than any other player is capable of. He can hit the 3 ball, drive to the basket (with the best) run the court on a fastbreak...and stop the fastbreak basket. He has more APG than all but 5 people in the NBA. There are 30 teams with a starting PG on them...and he has more assists than all but a small handful. Lebron isn't the problem on this team.
Yes he failed...along with the other players on the team. I didn't mention them because they aren't the leader. I just said that it takes a TEAM but Cleveland sits around and watches Queen James in the 4th quarter.King James isn't the problem. His TEAM is.


Exactly my point...the TEAM closed out the game by not sitting around and watching LeBron try to close the game out.And when the TEAM stepped up, Lebron was fine. It's not Lebron's fault.

He has the ball in his hands more than 98% of the league (my stat lol) so I'm not surprised he has a lot of assists. I bet that when he does have a lot of assists in the 4th quarter, his team wins most of them. Did you not read what I said? I've already stated that he needs to play TEAM ball in the 4th quarter to win. He's got plenty of talent around him...don't give me that bs.He has talent around him...but not near as much as people think. An overrated Mo Williams (can't play defense.) An extremely aging Shaq and Z... Jamison (not a great defender). Anderson Varejao (highly underrated). Delonte West (who's good when his head is on straight.) An overrated Anthony Parker. An OK Jamario Moon.

Lebron makes them all better through his play.

When you beat everybody in the regular season, what does it make you? Even though the West has been a stronger conference for YEARS now, his Cavs have beaten them during the regular season. What part of LeBron needs to play TEAM ball in the 4th aren't you understanding? That ball movement, passing and other players stepping up can't happen if they are standing around watching LeBron hold the ball for 21 seconds and then hoisting up a 3 or bullrushing the rim! It makes you the #1 seed...but the playoffs aren't about who had the best regular season...the playoffs are about MATCHUPS. Last year, the Cavs matched up very poorly with Orlando...because they had no one for Dwight...and Lebron can't cover both Hedo Turkoglu and Rashard Lewis. They didn't have anybody who could really guard the other guy because Andy V wasn't athletic enough to keep up with Lewis...and Delonte was way too short to cover Turkoglu.

I wouldn't say LA looked awful last year...I would say that they took HOU for granted without Yao. But you can't compare that team to the Cavs this year only because your star player is injured and can't seem to play through it. Let's hope Boston holds home court advantage.
LA looked AWFUL last year. They did. That's why it went 7 games. They did take Houston for granted...but not for 3 losses. That was just terrible play against a very scrappy team. They got it together in time to get through the Western Finals and then on to beat an Orlando team that couldn't matchup with them.
The Lakers have no bench but Cleveland does. Why ya'll don't play Hickson more is beyond me. I do know that Jamison can hold his own with anybody on the offensive end...he hasn't played D since UNC lol. Nobody can compart to Shaq back then but you have it backwards. Shaq was the man on those teams, not Kobe (even though he closed out the games).
Hickson is still lost on defense. There's a reason why Rasheed Wallace went off the way he did on offense in game 2. When Hickson was covering him...he scored at will. Hickson provides a very fast offense and would be great in Phoenix. But his half court defense needs a lot of work still. I know that Shaq had Kobe as his Pippen (something I have touted for many many years). However, the times that Kobe's team won the rings involved having two star players. Shaq and Kobe or Kobe and Gasol. Both teams also had a pretty strong supporting cast. If you want me to make that comparison again...Lebron doesn't have anyone on his team as good as Kobe was in the 2000-2003 years (since Kobe was the 2nd fiddle during that timeframe).
I agree that the Cavs need to run more. I just dont' see them beating Orlando even if they get past Boston. I can't understand how LeBron can take them to the best record in the regular season but fizzle in the playoffs. He's trying to hard to get that ring instead of playing like he played to get them the #1 seed
Getting past Boston will be tough..and Orlando is no easy team to beat either. That being said, Shaq can neutralize Howard...which allows our team to play in more one on one matchups that favor us. The trade of Turkoglu for Vinsanity actually favors the Cavs in regards to matchups...because Delonte can actually make Carters life a living hell on the basketball court. Jamison has done well against Rashard Lewis throughout his career...and allows Lebron to free lance more. The only real issue becomes PG where Mo and Jameer Nelson could have a career night on any given night (because neither are great defenders.) Both players are capable of getting real hot real fast.

SteelersinCA
05-07-2010, 06:04 PM
It's simple, if the Cavs win LBJ stays, if they don't he's gone. We've heard this all before; last year someone had a "very good source that a deal was going to be done soon." Never happened. One team I've never heard mentioned is the Lakers. Kobe is getting to the end and they can afford it. Just throwing it out there. We'll all know in 2 months.

By the way, anyone care to explain how Nate Robinson's jersey was #11 in sales. WHO THE HELL IS NATE ROBINSON???? Imagine LBJ's cut of the money from his Nike gear if he was a net or Knick or Laker or Celtic. Unreal money that everyone wants to conveniently ignore. Yes, I know jersey sales are shared but I'm talking about his L23 brand. If Nate freaking Robinson ranks 11 in jersey sales, LBJ would make a killing.

Nadroj 20
05-07-2010, 06:13 PM
It's simple, if the Cavs win LBJ stays, if they don't he's gone. We've heard this all before; last year someone had a "very good source that a deal was going to be done soon." Never happened. One team I've never heard mentioned is the Lakers. Kobe is getting to the end and they can afford it. Just throwing it out there. We'll all know in 2 months.

By the way, anyone care to explain how Nate Robinson's jersey was #11 in sales. WHO THE HELL IS NATE ROBINSON???? Imagine LBJ's cut of the money from his Nike gear if he was a net or Knick or Laker or Celtic. Unreal money that everyone wants to conveniently ignore. Yes, I know jersey sales are shared but I'm talking about his L23 brand. If Nate freaking Robinson ranks 11 in jersey sales, LBJ would make a killing.

IMO no matter what LeBron will be in Cleveland next season.

revefsreleets
05-10-2010, 03:25 PM
IMO no matter what LeBron will be in Cleveland next season.

I think so, too...

SteelersinCA
05-11-2010, 09:06 PM
IMO no matter what LeBron will be in Cleveland next season.

Booing lebron is not a smart move with respect to keeping him. Typical trash Cleveland people.

xXTheSteelKingsXx
05-11-2010, 09:38 PM
Booing lebron is not a smart move with respect to keeping him. Typical trash Cleveland people.

Fans in LA did the exact same thing during the Christmas day game when the Cavs stomped the Lakers. At least the people in Cleveland arn't throwing shit onto the court.

SteelersinCA
05-11-2010, 09:48 PM
Fans in LA did the exact same thing during the Christmas day game when the Cavs stomped the Lakers. At least the people in Cleveland arn't throwing shit onto the court.

Perhaps you missed the "with respect to keeping him" part? Cleveland fans deserve all the misery they get. This just proves year after year no matter how good the cavs are in the regular season, they are overrated and have no one but lebron. Desperation with shaq and Jamison, mo Williams is dirt in the playoffs and everyone else is average at best. Why would you ever boobs guy whovis the lone bright spot in your entire city? Boo lebron, real smart. I'm not saying booing is trashy, booing lebron, however, is.

xXTheSteelKingsXx
05-11-2010, 10:14 PM
Perhaps you missed the "with respect to keeping him" part? Cleveland fans deserve all the misery they get. This just proves year after year no matter how good the cavs are in the regular season, they are overrated and have no one but lebron. Desperation with shaq and Jamison, mo Williams is dirt in the playoffs and everyone else is average at best. Why would you ever boobs guy whovis the lone bright spot in your entire city? Boo lebron, real smart. I'm not saying booing is trashy, booing lebron, however, is.

In defense of the Cleveland fans, he played piss poor tonight. I'm not a Cavs fan but living in Ohio I hear all the stuff on the radio and television and I think the fans are just fed up with LeBron's drama. Is he staying or is he going? Is his elbow hurt or is it all just a show for attention? The city is desperate for a championship and for the past two seasons it seems (atleat to them) that the Cavs, especially LeBron as the leader, is throwing their best chance away.

To me the problem is not so much the players but the scheme. I'm watching the Cavs and to me it looks like the only set play the run is the pick and roll. I understand Mike Brown is a defensive coach but come on. The majority of the time its four guys standing around while LeBron tries to do his thing.

Steel_12
05-11-2010, 10:15 PM
Get beat by 32 at home? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *deep breath* HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Another choke job by Cleveland...I love it!

tony hipchest
05-11-2010, 11:32 PM
as a labron fan who could give 2 shits about cleveland, i feel he should get out while the gettin is good and never look back. he's too good for that team, coach and most certainly too good for that city and its fanbase.

he's gotta be embarrassed right now seeing 3 other remaining teams sitting at home, resting for a week, clean off of sweeps.

the celtics are (and have been) the stronger team, and even if the cavs do advance, i doubt they can get past the magic, let alone the suns or lakers in the finals (they would probably even struggle vs. the spurs).

a sick part of me hopes he stays in cleveland so i can enjoy even more of their fans misery for years to come, but that is not fair to him.

SteelersinCA
05-12-2010, 01:37 AM
In defense of the Cleveland fans, he played piss poor tonight. I'm not a Cavs fan but living in Ohio I hear all the stuff on the radio and television and I think the fans are just fed up with LeBron's drama. Is he staying or is he going? Is his elbow hurt or is it all just a show for attention? The city is desperate for a championship and for the past two seasons it seems (atleat to them) that the Cavs, especially LeBron as the leader, is throwing their best chance away.

To me the problem is not so much the players but the scheme. I'm watching the Cavs and to me it looks like the only set play the run is the pick and roll. I understand Mike Brown is a defensive coach but come on. The majority of the time its four guys standing around while LeBron tries to do his thing.

I just don't think there is any defense to booing the guy who is single handedly responsible for the cavs being there AND playing is potential last game at home in a cavs uni. There's no defense to that IMHO.

The coach blows but they are so overrated it's not funny. I think it's more a product a mentality in Cleveland. They have something to prove in the regular season while other teams turn it on in the playoffs.

Why would lebron stay? He has a crap coach and crap team around him. 3 yrs of the same song and dance. You can't win titles in the regular season, see cavs. I feel bad for lebron. He deserves better than the misery of ne Ohio.

revefsreleets
05-12-2010, 10:03 AM
I didn't realize the Cavs were out of the playoffs because of a bad loss. Didn't realize James had already left the team because he played his worst game as a Cav. Didn't realize Cleveland fans were trash for booing poor play of their team. Did Wexell tweat this info? Was it reported on radio 1250?

xfl2001fan
05-12-2010, 12:25 PM
I didn't realize the Cavs were out of the playoffs because of a bad loss. Didn't realize James had already left the team because he played his worst game as a Cav. Didn't realize Cleveland fans were trash for booing poor play of their team. Did Wexell tweat this info? Was it reported on radio 1250?

The loss didn't help them. Historically speaking, the odds are against the Cavs winning these last two games...especially when the supporting cast has been playing so poorly to this point.

MACH1
05-12-2010, 12:27 PM
I didn't realize the Cavs were out of the playoffs because of a bad loss. Didn't realize James had already left the team because he played his worst game as a Cav. Didn't realize Cleveland fans were trash for booing poor play of their team. Did Wexell tweat this info? Was it reported on radio 1250?

I thought lebron had more heart than he showed last night. He stood around and watched everybody else. Thats not what a MVP does, a MVP leaves the court with an empty gun.

Before you say I'm hating on lebron, I'm not, yet. :chuckle: I dislike boston as much as anyone else and would rather see them gone fishing.

xfl2001fan
05-12-2010, 12:48 PM
I thought lebron had more heart than he showed last night. He stood around and watched everybody else. Thats not what a MVP does, a MVP leaves the court with an empty gun.

Before you say I'm hating on lebron, I'm not, yet. :chuckle: I dislike boston as much as anyone else and would rather see them gone fishing.

It's not often that I agree with Colin Cowherd...especially when it comes to Lebron...but I think he made a really good point about Lebron. Lebron was sending a message (to his teammates and his owner) that they all need to step it up. He "might" have been able to take that game over by himself (though I doubt it)...but that won't win a series...and it certainly won't win against Orlando.

Rondo is better than I thought (coming into this series) and not just because Mo can't play defense. KG is playing like the KG of old...and not just an Old KG...

Mo still can't shoot in the playoffs...Jamison is getting owned by KG, Rondo is a beast. The Cavs are getting out worked, out coached and outplayed. Lebron alone isn't going to win this...but he needs to get into his teammates faces and let them know that they need to step it up. He doesn't have to be as hateful as Kobe and MJ have been (in the past) but he still needs to step it up off the court...or on the court will end in Boston tomorrow night.

Steel_12
05-12-2010, 12:55 PM
It's not often that I agree with Colin Cowherd...especially when it comes to Lebron...but I think he made a really good point about Lebron. Lebron was sending a message (to his teammates and his owner) that they all need to step it up. He "might" have been able to take that game over by himself (though I doubt it)...but that won't win a series...and it certainly won't win against Orlando.

Rondo is better than I thought (coming into this series) and not just because Mo can't play defense. KG is playing like the KG of old...and not just an Old KG...

Mo still can't shoot in the playoffs...Jamison is getting owned by KG, Rondo is a beast. The Cavs are getting out worked, out coached and outplayed. Lebron alone isn't going to win this...but he needs to get into his teammates faces and let them know that they need to step it up. He doesn't have to be as hateful as Kobe and MJ have been (in the past) but he still needs to step it up off the court...or on the court will end in Boston tomorrow night.

LMAO...I love it!

MACH1
05-12-2010, 01:01 PM
but I think he made a really good point about Lebron. Lebron was sending a message (to his teammates and his owner) that they all need to step it up.

What????Total BS.......If thats what he was doing he sure picked the worst possible time to do it, the most important game of the season. If he was sending a message, do it for the first quarter then light it up. Don't stand there like a statue and watch your team sink. Or the message was nanana, I can't wait to get out of here.

xfl2001fan
05-12-2010, 01:03 PM
What????Total BS.......If thats what he was doing he sure picked the worst possible time to do it, the most important game of the season. If he was sending a message, do it for the first quarter then light it up. Don't stand there like a statue and watch your team sink. Or the message was nanana, I can't wait to get out of here.

Kobe did it before they brought in Pau Gasol...and it was an elimination game.

It may be that Lebron is tired of it.

MACH1
05-12-2010, 01:08 PM
Kobe did it before they brought in Pau Gasol...and it was an elimination game.

It may be that Lebron is tired of it.

So your saying lebron wants to be like kobe. :chuckle:

What series, year was that?

xfl2001fan
05-12-2010, 01:12 PM
So your saying lebron wants to be like kobe. :chuckle:

What series, year was that?

Wanna say it was 07 in the final game vs Phoenix...though it may have been 06.

xfl2001fan
05-12-2010, 01:20 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/recap?gameId=270502021

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/playoffs2007/columns/story?columnist=stein_marc&page=LakersFuture

Nadroj 20
05-12-2010, 01:25 PM
Wanna say it was 07 in the final game vs Phoenix...though it may have been 06.

I think it was 07 against the suns that sounds famliair for some reason

MACH1
05-12-2010, 01:55 PM
2006 Lakers Season Record: 45-37

7th seed in west - lost to phoenix in 5

Roster-
* - still with the team
Brown, Kwame
Bryant, Kobe*
Bynum, Andrew* - he suffered an injury on his left kneecap, and missed most of the season and all of the playoffs.
Cook, Brian
Evans, Maurice
Farmar, Jordan* - rookie
McKie, Aaron
Mihm, Chris
Odom, Lamar*
Parker, Smush
Radmanović, Vladimir
Turiaf, Ronny
Vujačić, Sasha*
Walton, Luke*
Williams, Shammond


2010 Cavs Season Record 61-21

1st Seed Overall, best record in NBA

Roster

Daniel Gibson
Daniel Green
J.J. Hickson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
LeBron James
Antawn Jamison
Jamario Moon
Shaquille O'Neal
Anthony Parker
Leon Powe
Sebastian Telfair
Anderson Varejao
Delonte West
Jawad Williams
Mo Williams

Now lets compare talent level of those teams. The best record in the nba vs. a seventh seed, no comparison. The personnel dept, the cavs win. With Lebron, Shaq, Jamison, Williams. The Lakers had Bryant, Odem. IF either guy gave up to send a message, which is worse? Like I said IF that's what Lebron was doing he needs to pull his head outa his ass and win.

Now I know you going to tell me shaq is old, moe sucks in the playoffs, ect. Blah blah blah, you have the best record in the nba and the #1 seed overall, you don't get that by having a crap team.

SteelersinCA
05-12-2010, 02:13 PM
I really don't want to get into another thread about Kobe vs Lebron, but LBJ doesn't have anywhere close to the killer instinct of MJ or Kobe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AomwwmsGyOUBxMLq1Xa0ZGc5nYcB?slug=aw-lebroncavs051210

xXTheSteelKingsXx
05-12-2010, 02:52 PM
It might be just me but I feel more sure than ever that LeBron is going to leave Cleveland after this season. Seems like he just dosn't care anymore. Hell what did he say in his post game interview? Something along the lines of spoiling Cavs fans over the past seven years. I don't know but to me he seems like he wants to spite them.

Earlier in the season I jokingly told a friend that they might as well trade LeBron to a lottery team and hope to land Evan Turner or John Wall in the draft. Maybe that wouldn't have been such a bad decision? :chuckle:

Nadroj 20
05-12-2010, 05:03 PM
2006 Lakers Season Record: 45-37

7th seed in west - lost to phoenix in 5

Roster-
* - still with the team
Brown, Kwame
Bryant, Kobe*
Bynum, Andrew* - he suffered an injury on his left kneecap, and missed most of the season and all of the playoffs.
Cook, Brian
Evans, Maurice
Farmar, Jordan* - rookie
McKie, Aaron
Mihm, Chris
Odom, Lamar*
Parker, Smush
Radmanović, Vladimir
Turiaf, Ronny
Vujačić, Sasha*
Walton, Luke*
Williams, Shammond


2010 Cavs Season Record 61-21

1st Seed Overall, best record in NBA

Roster

Daniel Gibson
Daniel Green
J.J. Hickson
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
LeBron James
Antawn Jamison
Jamario Moon
Shaquille O'Neal
Anthony Parker
Leon Powe
Sebastian Telfair
Anderson Varejao
Delonte West
Jawad Williams
Mo Williams

Now lets compare talent level of those teams. The best record in the nba vs. a seventh seed, no comparison. The personnel dept, the cavs win. With Lebron, Shaq, Jamison, Williams. The Lakers had Bryant, Odem. IF either guy gave up to send a message, which is worse? Like I said IF that's what Lebron was doing he needs to pull his head outa his ass and win.

Now I know you going to tell me shaq is old, moe sucks in the playoffs, ect. Blah blah blah, you have the best record in the nba and the #1 seed overall, you don't get that by having a crap team.

The regular season play is completely different then post season. The reason they always have the best regular season record is because during the reg. season 1 person can pretty much make the team. That one person is LeBron. Sure the other guys are involved but for the most part if lebron plays well they win.

Once the post season comes around everyones role increases and they have to step up and play better then they have all season. LeBron does this....the rest of the team does not. Also 1 player cant win it all in the post season because we all know the game changes when the games matter more.

It seems like every year his team lets him down in the playoffs and its far from LBJ's fault.

MACH1
05-12-2010, 06:19 PM
So you don't believe the meltdown was his fault? He stood around with his thumb up his ass most of the game!

xfl2001fan
05-12-2010, 07:38 PM
So you don't believe the meltdown was his fault? He stood around with his thumb up his ass most of the game!

I think he played a huge part in it...but I have to wonder if his Elbow isn't more hurt than he let on. The two games where he did good (1 and 3) were when he had more than 1 day off between games. Games 2 4 and 5 involved only 1 day off between. John Hollinger wrote a good article about it on ESPN...showed the difference in his shooting percentage (vast) and his 3point shot (missed every attempt in games 2 4 and 5). IF the Cavs can survive game 6, the odds of Lebron having a good game go up bigtime.

tony hipchest
05-12-2010, 09:47 PM
It's not often that I agree with Colin Cowherd...especially when it comes to Lebron...but I think he made a really good point about Lebron. Lebron was sending a message (to his teammates and his owner) that they all need to step it up. He "might" have been able to take that game over by himself (though I doubt it)...but that won't win a series...and it certainly won't win against Orlando.

Rondo is better than I thought (coming into this series) and not just because Mo can't play defense. KG is playing like the KG of old...and not just an Old KG...

Mo still can't shoot in the playoffs...Jamison is getting owned by KG, Rondo is a beast. The Cavs are getting out worked, out coached and outplayed. Lebron alone isn't going to win this...but he needs to get into his teammates faces and let them know that they need to step it up. He doesn't have to be as hateful as Kobe and MJ have been (in the past) but he still needs to step it up off the court...or on the court will end in Boston tomorrow night.

now there is some rational, non-homer, actual BB talk that these threads have desperately been missing.

unfortunately for you being candid and objective, you will now be lumped in with the rest of the "haters" by our resident ohioguru.

welcome to the club of lucidity.... :drink:

xfl2001fan
05-13-2010, 05:36 AM
2006 Lakers Season Record: 45-37
Daniel Gibson (no defense, streaky shooter, poor passing skills, PG)
Daniel Green (Rookie SF)
J.J. Hickson (No defense, high energy, a bit undersized PF)
Zydrunas Ilgauskas (Over the hill and very slow C, good rebounder, decent shooter)
Kobe Bryant (for the sake of argument)
Antawn Jamison (getting older, decent shot but loves his jumper, so-so rebounder and defender)
Jamario Moon (decent shot, but took years to actually get into the league, decent defender)
Shaquille O'Neal (over the hill and very very slow, still a physical presence who can alter things by getting opposing big men into foul trouble)
Anthony Parker (so so shot, so so defender...)
Leon Powe (probably should be used more, but no chemistry with team as he hasn't played much)
Sebastian Telfair (no chemistry with team, though should be semi-decent instant offense off the bench)
Anderson Varejao (high energy defender, very little offense to speak of.)
Delonte West (Only non-superstar on roster who can create his own shot, though undersized, good on-ball defender, decent passer, good scorer)
Jawad Williams (end of the bench for a reason)
Mo Williams (very streaky shooter, very poor defender)


Look at this roster (objectively) and ask yourself, could Kobe win with this roster? Be honest...the answer is no...especially with how they are playing in the playoffs.

Nadroj 20
05-13-2010, 07:17 AM
So you don't believe the meltdown was his fault? He stood around with his thumb up his ass most of the game!

IT was one game so no, lbj is not responsible for any meltdown or it they lose the series


This is the FIRST time he has ever done anything like this and we may not know the whole story yet everyone wants to call him out when they are trying to prove something

MACH1
05-13-2010, 08:41 AM
IT was one game so no, lbj is not responsible for any meltdown or it they lose the series


This is the FIRST time he has ever done anything like this and we may not know the whole story yet everyone wants to call him out when they are trying to prove something

He's the MVP. Not very MVP of him to stand around and watch.

revefsreleets
05-13-2010, 08:51 AM
now there is some rational, non-homer, actual BB talk that these threads have desperately been missing.

unfortunately for you being candid and objective, you will now be lumped in with the rest of the "haters" by our resident ohioguru.

welcome to the club of lucidity.... :drink:

It was one game, KOTFT.

revefsreleets
05-13-2010, 08:52 AM
I really don't want to get into another thread about Kobe vs Lebron, but LBJ doesn't have anywhere close to the killer instinct of MJ or Kobe.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AomwwmsGyOUBxMLq1Xa0ZGc5nYcB?slug=aw-lebroncavs051210


Here, let me fix this for you.

EITHER: I really don't want to get into another thread about Kobe vs Lebron



OR: LBJ doesn't have anywhere close to the killer instinct of MJ or Kobe

Because the latter completely cancels out the former...

SteelersinCA
05-13-2010, 09:49 AM
IT was one game so no, lbj is not responsible for any meltdown or it they lose the series


This is the FIRST time he has ever done anything like this and we may not know the whole story yet everyone wants to call him out when they are trying to prove something

Watch how they'll turn on him when he leaves. The guy is entitled to some bad games. I can't think of another player anywhere that has had to endure the pressure he has. Typical NE Ohio fan is too dense to see it, they'd rather boo the only person that has done anything for them in the past 10+ years.

I'm not so sure he "did" anything. I think he had a bad game. LBJ doesn't need to take a night off the prove the rest of the team is dirt. He knows it, maybe he's trying to let the fan boys on SF realize it, that's it!!! Mystery solved. :rofl:

SteelersinCA
05-13-2010, 10:15 AM
http://www.cbssports.com/columns/story/13387136/parting-is-such-sweet-sorrow-for-clevelands-star-is-legone?tag=coverlist_active;coverlist_footer

It just hit me. I'm going to lose LeBron.

He's gone. He's leaving Cleveland. Leaving Ohio. Leaving me.

It's a matter of time, and judging from the last few games of the Eastern Conference semifinals, that time can be counted not in months or weeks, but in hours. Cleveland is hours away from playing Game 6 at Boston, and after watching LeBron James play down to the level of his old (Shaq), overrated (Antawn Jamison) and simply not very good (Mo Williams) supporting cast, I'm pretty sure Cleveland's season ends Thursday night.

Which means LeBron's time in Cleveland, in Ohio, ends Thursday night.

This is not what I want. If you're reading it that way, kindly repeat second grade. Losing LeBron is not what I want. I've grown attached to that sucker, to the point of fandom. I was there May 31, 2007, when he had 48 points against Detroit and singlehandedly beat the Pistons by scoring Cleveland's final 25 points in a double-overtime playoff victory. I saved the official box score. That was it for me. I was in love.

Which is why LeBron's imminent, and obvious, departure has blindsided me. Fans don't see the truth; they see what they want to see. How else do you explain the blind devotion in Tennessee to that idiot Lane Kiffin when he was coaching the Vols for 14 minutes months?

Same here. In my blind devotion to LeBron, I didn't see the hints that he would leave me, including the most obvious hint of all: His willingness to go through free agency after the 2009-10 season. Seemed pretty clear to you, right? If James wanted to stay in Cleveland, he'd re-sign before summer. It's not like he could make more money somewhere else, or hard-line the Cavaliers into a few extra millions. The NBA with its rigid salary structure isn't Major League Baseball, where the Texas Rangers or Los Angeles Dodgers can be fooled into bidding against themselves until they give head-scratching deals to Alex Rodriguez and Kevin Brown.

But I was blind. Same thing with his 2009 and 2010 MVP trophies. LeBron accepted both of them in Akron, his hometown. The first one, sure, that made sense. LeBron asked to be presented the trophy at St. Vincent-St. Mary as a way of honoring his high school. But the second one? LeBron accepted the 2010 MVP last week at the University of Akron, as a way of honoring ... who, exactly? I had no idea at the time, but in hindsight I think it was more an act of dishonor to Cleveland. James was making it clear that he's an Akron guy, not a Cleveland guy. It was his first symbolic step out the door. I see it now. Especially in light of the following comment he made to the crowd at Akron:

"No matter what might be ahead for me," he said, "this will always be my home."

This being Akron. Not Cleveland.

That's the most definitive statement LeBron has made yet about his plans, and you're right -- that's not definitive at all. LeBron has never said what he plans to do this offseason, where he plans to sign, if he plans to leave the Cavaliers at all. But his personal biographer, Buzz Bissinger, said this week that he expects LeBron to go to the Knicks, LeBron, Bissinger said, "would own New York in a way that no athlete has ever owned it."

And that's why my blind spot has been so big. It's not just my Ohio loyalty that has made me refuse to see the obvious. It's my New York antipathy. I don't like that place. Never have, never will. Typically I don't like frontrunners, and New York is a frontrunner. It's huge, it's rich and it has television wrapped around its finger. And the New York media, as insufferable a group as there is in this insufferable business, makes me ill. They've always assumed LeBron will come to New York because it's New York, stupid. And everyone wants to be in New York. Right? You idiots. Enjoy your 650 square feet, morons. ...

Where was I? Oh, right. LeBron and New York. Rooting for New York to get LeBron is like rooting for the Yankees to get a World Series. Why, unless you live in New York, would you do that? That bus is rolling whether you're on it or not. Go root for something original. Find your own team.

Me, I found LeBron. He's my team. So I'm taking this hard. But as hard as his departure will be on me, it will be 10 million times harder on Cleveland. And Cleveland has been through sports hell.

But Cleveland hasn't been through anything like this. The Drive? The Shot? Those were cruel, true, but they were one-year bits of cruelty. John Elway knocked Cleveland out of the 1987 Super Bowl by driving the Broncos 98 yards in the final minutes to force overtime and eventually win the AFC title game. Michael Jordan knocked the Cavaliers out of the 1989 NBA playoffs by hovering above Craig Ehlo to beat the buzzer in Game 5 of a five-game series. Those moments sucked, but there was nothing permanent about either one. The Browns still fielded a team the year after The Drive, a team competitive enough to reach the AFC title game again (and suffer The Fumble). Same with the Cavaliers one year after The Shot, reaching the playoffs again in 1990. Two years later, the Cavs were in the Eastern Conference finals. They recovered from that.

But this? The Cavs won't recover from this. The entire city of Cleveland won't recover from this, because this is a killer. This is Fred Sanford stumbling around, holding his chest and screaming for Elizabeth, only this time, he ain't joking. This is the big one. Cleveland was a baseball town first, then an NFL town, but LeBron eclipsed both. He is the biggest star this city has ever seen, not just because he's a great player with a great personality, but because he's a local. Akron is less than 40 miles away. When LeBron leaves, he'll leave behind a basketball team that will be lucky to win 25 games next season, and that will do so inside a half-empty arena. When LeBron leaves, he'll rip out this city's heart.

Mine is breaking already, and here's the first thing I'm going to do. I'm going to stop referring to LeBron as LeBron. No more of that. He's not dead to me, but from this point on -- unless he stays in Cleveland -- he is James to me. He's lost the first-name privilege, and it goes both ways. Call me Mr. Doyel, you traitor. You selfish jerk.

I'm losing him. I'm losing LeBron -- I mean, James -- and unless the Cavaliers force Game 7, I won't even get to say goodbye.


For more from Gregg Doyel, check him out on Twitter: @greggdoyelcbs

revefsreleets
05-13-2010, 10:16 AM
That Dan Gilbert, what a piece of NEO trash...

Gilbert tells The Plain Dealer of Cleveland that his team’s performance in the past two home games "does not come close to being anywhere near the high expectations all of us have of our organization. Our fans and supporters deserve more."

http://www.bostonherald.com/sports/basketball/celtics/view.bg?articleid=1254320&srvc=rss

(Edit) I also will take the word of the owner and James' HS coach and close friend Keith Dambrot over Greg Doyel. But each to his own, I guess...oh, and there is this:

http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/04/will_lebron_james_stay_with_th.html

After being mostly neutral and downright noncommittal for some time, those closest to James have been altering their view recently. The vibe being sent out from James' camp -- whether it is private conversations or discussions about new business or plans for the near future -- is that James currently is leaning strongly toward re-signing with the Cavs.

That may sound vague and, as always, it continues to be fragile. Yet there is no denying the gradual shift within James' circle and, it is assumed, by James himself.

James has declined to talk publicly about free agency since November. But as one source said, "I have never been so sure that he's going to stay in Cleveland than I am right now."

Dambrot "betting his house"....

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=broussard_chris&page=LeBronMVP-100503

"I don't have any special insight into this,'' said Keith Dambrot, James' first high school coach and now the head coach at Akron. "But if I had to, I'd bet my house that he stays. Why else would you do things like this?''

Steel_12
05-13-2010, 03:01 PM
Kobe did it before they brought in Pau Gasol...and it was an elimination game.

It may be that Lebron is tired of it.

Kobe also had 20+ points in the first half of that game and they were still down big. I don't think he gave up, he just tried something different in the 2nd half. They still should've won the series being up 3-1 tho.

Nadroj 20
05-13-2010, 06:32 PM
Im going to call it now....the cavs win and LeBron has 45 plus

MACH1
05-13-2010, 06:44 PM
Im going to call it now....the cavs win and LeBron has 45 plus

I'm going to call, boston 4-2 :wave:










Although I've been wrong before. :chuckle:

Nadroj 20
05-13-2010, 06:46 PM
I'm going to call, boston 4-2 :wave:










Although I've been wrong before. :chuckle:

I think its going to be a close game and possibly come down to the last possession....but remember that Lebron plays awesome in boston...hope that is the case tonight :hope:

Nadroj 20
05-13-2010, 08:22 PM
well after the first half im not too proud of LBJ's preformance. He isnt shooting well again, but he does look more focused at least.

Mo Williams on the otherhand has been phenominal. If he continues to play like this and LBJ steps it up, they can win this game.

MACH1
05-13-2010, 08:32 PM
Enjoy your last 24 minutes with lebron. :wink02:

Steel_12
05-13-2010, 09:38 PM
This is great LMAO...Queen James has another WASTED season! I LOVE IT!!!!!! Boston is looking like they can beat anybody!

Hold on for 6 more minutes Cetics!

MACH1
05-13-2010, 10:05 PM
I didn't realize the Cavs were out of the playoffs because of a bad loss. Didn't realize James had already left the team because he played his worst game as a Cav. Didn't realize Cleveland fans were trash for booing poor play of their team. Did Wexell tweat this info? Was it reported on radio 1250?

So much for the paper champions.

Let the excuses fly.

New York Knicks New York Knicks New York Knicks New York Knicks New York Knicks

SteelersinCA
05-13-2010, 10:08 PM
I bet people are throwing themselves in the flaming river tonight, quick someone get the suicide hotline in Cleveland!!!!

tony hipchest
05-13-2010, 11:59 PM
It was one game, KOTFT.

tuff loss, QOTP.

even tougher 4 games and series.

heres to labron's future endeavors, even if he does make the wrong decision. :drink:

sometimes the grass IS greener on the other side, though...

El-Gonzo Jackson
05-14-2010, 12:10 AM
Man...last year Bron Bron's supporting cast went missing during the playoffs. Now this series his game was on the back of a milk carton.

Gotta give the Celtics defense credit for really making it tough to get in the paint. They played solid defense and the Cavs looked just like the Browns in the 2003 playoffs. Folding up like a cheap lawn chair under the pressure of playoffs.

steelerdude15
05-14-2010, 12:11 AM
The Celtics are a dangerous team. With Paul, K.G., and Ray, they have a dangerous lineup. Perkins and Rajon also add fuel to the fire. Rajon makes a great PG. Only if Pittsburgh had a NBA team... :frown:

xfl2001fan
05-14-2010, 04:50 AM
Kudos to Boston...the better team won. Mo showed up in the first half...but was gone in the 2nd. Yet another game where the first half was close...but in-game adjustments by one coach (not named Mike Brown) allows one team to walk away with this. I think he's gone as a HC. He has done a very good job (overall) with the defense...but this is a team that should have been able to run and gun the Celtics. His rotation sucked. LBJ didn't have a bad game...it just wasn't the 40/8/8 that most have come to expect.

zulater
05-14-2010, 05:59 AM
I'd be surprised if LeBron ends up back in Cleveland. I mean what do you see to suggest it would ever get better there?

If I were him I'd take a serious look at the Clippers. He and Blake Griffin could be a helluva tandem.

revefsreleets
05-14-2010, 08:52 AM
Meh, maybe next year...

SteelersinCA
05-14-2010, 10:39 AM
I'd be surprised if LeBron ends up back in Cleveland. I mean what do you see to suggest it would ever get better there?

If I were him I'd take a serious look at the Clippers. He and Blake Griffin could be a helluva tandem.

They don't have the cap room to bring in another big name and keep the guys they have. Even though I think the guys they have are garbage. The Bulls would be a better option if he's looking to have a team around him, but I honestly don't think he wants to rebuild, which would take the knicks out of it. I think it's going to be a huge surprise where he ends up. Him, Bosh and Wade are going to get together and figure out where they are going. Maybe Stoudamire will be in that roundtable.

revefsreleets
05-14-2010, 11:12 AM
There's no one single team that will land James, Bosh and Wade.

I think he stays, Shaq and Z go, Bosh comes in and John Calipari is the new coach.

Brown and Ferry are gone.

Wait...did you say Antwan Jamison is garbage?

Nadroj 20
05-14-2010, 11:18 AM
I'd be surprised if LeBron ends up back in Cleveland. I mean what do you see to suggest it would ever get better there?

If I were him I'd take a serious look at the Clippers. He and Blake Griffin could be a helluva tandem.

Blake Griffin, Baron Davis, Chris Kahman, and young pieces like Eric Gordon and DeAndre Jordan....that wouldnt be bad for LBJ at all.


I know I said that i feel LBJ is staying in Cleveland no matter what....a part of me still feels that way.

However its going to be interesting to see how this all plays out....imo he will be one of the LAST free agents that signs with a team so he can see where everyone else goes.

revefsreleets
05-14-2010, 11:26 AM
Actually, I take that back. A team MIGHT be able to swing all 3...but they would not have money left to sign any other players. The starting line-up AND bench would be:
G-Wade
C-Bosh
F- James

fansince'76
05-14-2010, 02:24 PM
New York Knicks New York Knicks New York Knicks New York Knicks New York Knicks

Why would he want to go to that absolute mess of an organization?

MACH1
05-14-2010, 04:03 PM
Why would he want to go to that absolute mess of an organization?

Thats just what the crowd was chanting at him last night. :chuckle:

xfl2001fan
05-14-2010, 04:49 PM
I'd be surprised if LeBron ends up back in Cleveland. I mean what do you see to suggest it would ever get better there?

Ferry has done a good job at improving the talent around him. His only real big mistake was signing Larry Huges to that ridiculous contract. But he even turned that into a plus.

The talent level has improved every year. When Lebron re-signs...look for that trend to continue.

BehindSteelCurtain
05-14-2010, 06:17 PM
You know how Lebron said he wants to change his number to 6.....He obviously can't be 23 in chicago....

Nadroj 20
05-14-2010, 10:26 PM
You know how Lebron said he wants to change his number to 6.....He obviously can't be 23 in chicago....

You are correct but i found something very interesting. He files papers to the NBA to get APPROVED to change his number to 6. The ONLY reason to do that is if you are changing your number while your on the same team you were on with the previous number. If he were going elsewhere he could pick which ever number he wanted when he got there.


So this interested me and made me think LBJ has no clue what hes doing.

Nadroj 20
05-14-2010, 10:40 PM
Could this be why Lebron sucked the last two games?

Delonte West Gloria James Love Affair (http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978237625)

MACH1
05-15-2010, 01:56 AM
Ferry has done a good job at improving the talent around him. His only real big mistake was signing Larry Huges to that ridiculous contract. But he even turned that into a plus.

The talent level has improved every year. When Lebron re-signs...look for that trend to continue.

If he does resign is the trend of giving up in the last three minutes going to continue too? Not to be an ass, but I couldn't believe how easily they quit. I say they because it was a team quit including lebron.

SteelersinCA
05-15-2010, 10:54 AM
Could this be why Lebron sucked the last two games?

Delonte West Gloria James Love Affair (http://news.gather.com/viewArticle.action?articleId=281474978237625)

Doubtful, something tells me Delonte would have been beaten to a pulp if this were the case. West is a punk though so I wouldn't put it by him.

tony hipchest
05-15-2010, 12:31 PM
If he does resign is the trend of giving up in the last three minutes going to continue too? Not to be an ass, but I couldn't believe how easily they quit. I say they because it was a team quit including lebron.i really dont know, but like julius says in Remember the Titans- "attitude reflects leadership".

what was most disappointing is how they gave up (i think it waas right around the 1:23 mark and down 9 points). they didnt try to foul, didnt try to score... nothing. they just walked around looking dejected.

ive watched alot of NBA and you would never see that from a jordan or kobe led team.

even reggie miller ("one of the greatest clutch playoff performers of his generation") had to be pulling hairs out of his bald skull.



DOTJMl7gapY&feature=related

j5hUfGVoyvM&feature=related

good thing labron is so young. he runs the risk of being taken out of the converstion of the likes of jordan, kobe, magic, bird and lumped in as the king of miller, ewing, barkley, and stockton/malone.

tony hipchest
05-16-2010, 12:09 PM
:chuckle:

we are the world tribute video implores labron to stay...

http://www.break.com/index/we-are-lebron-video.html


If LeBron James leaves the Cavs it will be a tragedy for the city of Cleveland. Clevelanders from all over the globe came together to sing this musical tribute in hopes that it will convince the Cavaliers star not to go. Please stay LeBron!

Lyrics: There comes a time, when a decision must be made Will the King, move on or will he stay? We're helplessly waiting, as we hold our breath in fear. Should we renew, our tickets for next year? Please stay LeBron, We really need you No bigger market's gonna love you half as much as we do It's a choice you're making, will you go or will you stay.... What will we do with that big sign, if you move away? Just tell us King, what changes we must make, We'll rename every street 'LeBron' if that's what it takes.... New York's overcrowded, Those people are unbearable, And don't forget, the Knicks and Nets are terrible.... Please stay LeBron, we really need you, No bigger market's gonna love you half as much as we do...

Nadroj 20
05-16-2010, 12:24 PM
That song would be better rapped lol

tony hipchest
05-16-2010, 02:09 PM
On the heels of LeChoke, Cleveland takes the cake for gagging


My condolences, Cleveland. Another one of your teams blew it again. Choked. Spit the bit, gripped and gagged.

And, thus, your professional franchises clinch the Jean Van de Buckner Award, a dubious trophy that no doubt will slip through their fingers, much like this season's Eastern Conference playoff series against the Celtics. And The Fumble. And The Drive, The Shot, the '97 Series, the '07 ALCS and most likely LeBron James' Cleveland career.

That's not to say the professional sports teams in Cleveland are alone. The most chokingest sports cities in America have teams tripping over themselves trying to catch Cleveland's. It was a close contest, of course, because all the contenders have notoriously buckled at the knees with parched throats and quivering hands.

Here are my Top Ten Chokingest Sports Cities in America -- or bottom 10, depending on how you look at it.

First, a few guidelines. Foremost, remember that choking is an art, not a science. In other words, if a city's teams are just bad, that's not exactly choking in my mind. You have to have hopes before you can lose them all. In other words, Kansas City is not on my list. The Royals and Chiefs have been more flat-out awful than teasingly good. Conversely, just because a city has won a championship or five doesn't mean it hasn't mastered the art of the choke and creating heartache for its fans... are you listening Dallas?

And so I begin:



Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/john_lopez/05/13/chokes/index.html#ixzz0oDdtP6JZ



:chuckle: ouch! "we're number one! We're number one!"

MACH1
05-16-2010, 02:44 PM
1. Cleveland. It may well go down as, LeChoke. For all the creative and jaw-dropping ways that Cleveland teams have managed to rip out their fans hearts over the years, nothing compares to this season's NBA playoffs. How often does the most talented player on the planet grow up in your backyard and dream of playing for the hometown team? And how often does that hometown team blow it so magnificently?

:toofunny:

tony hipchest
05-16-2010, 02:59 PM
like i pointed out above, them completely quitting is the most disturbing and difficult part to figure out. but dont take my word for it. take it from a real cleveland-

Cavs' meltdown is most bitter heartache of all for Cleveland fans


The clock ticks down -- 56 seconds ... 55 seconds ... 54 seconds -- and Mike Brown waves his arms, and his players just stand there. They just bleeping stand there. You know they're not going to win. I know they're not going to win. Boston is beating Cleveland by nine, and that's too much. There are no miracles left, not for this disappointing Cleveland team, not for this wooden version of LeBron James. They are not going to win, not tonight. I know that, everybody knows that. But they just stand there. They just bleeping stand there.

"MOVE OR SOMETHING!" I hear myself shout.

Is this really how it ends? The Cavaliers players just stand there as the clock drains away -- now 51 seconds ... now 49 seconds ... now 47 seconds -- and even Mike Brown has stopped trying to wake the dead. He stands with his hands by his sides now, as defeated as his players. He can't even inspire them to foul.

There have been so many heartbreaking moments for us Cleveland fans ... each of them conveniently named so that they can be itemized when a Cleveland team loses yet again. Red Right 88. The Drive. The Fumble. The Shot. Old timers will remember Willie Mays' catch. Youngsters will remember Joel Skinner, the third-base coach who held up Kenny Lofton. Each of those moments, and others without names, were so heart wrenching for a city that has not won a championship since 1964.

But at least none of those teams quit. Maybe they faded. Maybe they choked. Maybe they even fell apart. But to quit? No, teams don't really quit. As Kansas State football coach Bill Snyder said when his team was credited for playing until the end of a game: "They don't let you quit."

Only ... they're just standing out there. They quit. Forty-five seconds. Forty-four. Forty-three. The Cavaliers are just standing back, away from the Celtics, waiting for the time to expire so they can leave, waiting for this season to end, waiting like this is some pointless Tuesday night game against Milwaukee or Phoenix in December. They're just waiting to go home. Maybe they can't win. But what kind of team just waits for the sad ending? What kind of players give up on a season when there's still time left on the clock?

In less than a minute, the clock will run out, and everyone will be talking about LeBron James. Where will he go? That will be the talk. The New Yorkers will talk about how the only place for LeBron to play is at Madison Square Garden, and they will stir up the ghosts of Willis Reed, and they will talk up the lights and the action and Broadway and Fifth Avenue and if you can't make it there and Derek Jeter and Donald Trump and pretzels on street corners and all of it.

The Chicago people will talk about Michael Jordan and cap money and Derrick Rose and what it's like to have the loyal people of that city and the Chicago wind at your back. The Miami people will talk up South Beach, and the Los Angeles people will talk up Hollywood, and they will all circle like buzzards around another Cleveland Catastrophe. The world will become mad ambulance chasers.

"Hey, Akron's a fine place," some ESPN announcer will say. "Love that Soapbox Derby and all." Ha ha! Yes, they will mock Cleveland, sure they will. They will wonder why LeBron would possibly want to stay in his hometown, where he is loved, where he is world famous, where he represents something larger than sports. They will tell him that he can shake the Cleveland dust off his feet and come somewhere so much more exciting. Yes. All that is coming in just 42 seconds, and 41 seconds, and 40 seconds.

And still the Cavaliers players just stand around waiting for it.

The Cavaliers lose the game because they aren't good enough. That's a surprise. Going into Game 5 of the series, they looked plenty good enough. And then, in Game 5, they got annihilated. Exposed. LeBron himself drifted, like he couldn't muster the energy, like he was tired of the expectations or the burden or something. He played the worst playoff game of his life. "Let someone else do it," he seemed to be saying all night long. There was no one else. The Celtics won by 32.

There had always been doubters about this Cleveland team, about the way they were put together, about the purpose of Shaq and the defense of Antawn Jamison and the consistency of Mo Williams. There have always been doubters, but on this night, the realization suddenly slapped everyone in the face. This team has chemistry problems. This team has a coaching problem. This team has a heart problem. This team is built for regular-season basketball, when players are going at two-thirds speed and the pain of losing is dulled by the realization that there's another game in New Jersey tomorrow night. It's like everyone woke up at the same time and realized, as Jamal Mashburn would say on television, that "Cleveland is a facade."

And the guy at the center of thing was LeBron James -- the man who dared call himself King. He took a ferocious beating for his bad game. More than that, he took a ferocious beating for not being Michael Jordan and not being Kobe Bryant.

"I spoil people with my play," LeBron said afterward. That rubbed people the wrong way. Spoil people? He had been a part of zero championship teams. Spoil people? But maybe that was part of what he was saying. Maybe what LeBron meant was that he has been such a good basketball player that people expect too much from him. They expect him to be a basketball assassin like Michael and Kobe. They expect him to double his intensity for a big game. They expect him to take on three, four, even five men singlehandedly. Maybe, LeBron was saying he just doesn't have that stuff in him.

The clock keeps ticking -- 35 seconds, 34 seconds, 33 seconds -- and Boston's Paul Pierce finally takes a shot. Pierce had taken over the game when it was still in doubt -- making two free throws, then a three, then another three, taking Boston's lead from three to 12. That was when it mattered. Now it doesn't matter. He misses. The Cavaliers get the rebound. They walk the ball slowly up the court. There's no urgency, no rush, no point -- 30 seconds, 29 seconds, 28 seconds. They might not even take a shot. LeBron is on the court. He is nowhere near the ball.

LeBron's numbers are special. He scored 27 points and grabbed 19 rebounds and added 10 assists. The headline writers and local television anchors will undoubtedly say that Boston won despite LeBron's triple-double. "Despite" will be the key word. But it's probably not right word.

Even with those numbers, LeBron seemed oddly distant. He turned the ball over nine times. He shot 8 of 21. He too easily gave up the ball time and again so that Anderson Varejao and Delonte West and Jamison could miss shots. LeBron did not make this his game. He did not put himself on the line. He did make back-to-back three-pointers with just over nine minutes left to cut the Cavaliers' deficit to four. But that was it. He made one field goal and turned the ball over twice in those last nine minutes.

Everyone wants to know what LeBron is thinking. His face is so placid. Is he hurt? Angry? Or maybe he doesn't want to be the hero. He's so unselfish, such a good passer, so eager to make other look good -- maybe he wants a team that allows him to be himself. Maybe he resents this team that relies so much on him to take center stage. Maybe he doesn't like having 40-plus years of Cleveland agony heaped on his shoulders. Maybe he wants it to be easy.

With 16 seconds left, Anderson Varejao shoots a three-point shot. Varejao from three -- that's how the season will end. He misses, of course, and no Cavaliers players even try for the rebound and Kevin Garnett gets the ball. There are 14 seconds left, now 13, now 12, and already the Cavaliers players are shaking hands. In a few minutes, Mike Brown will sit in front the press and talk about how his players fought hard to the finish. He will have a straight face when he says it.

The last few seconds seem to last forever, like it's one of those slow-motion sports scenes at the end of a movie. Four seconds. Three seconds. Two seconds. One second. And then, finally, it ends. The players shake hands. LeBron James hugs Celtics players, whispers good thoughts in their ears, wishes everyone luck. This, apparently, speaks to his newfound maturity. Last year, when the Cavaliers lost to Orlando, James was so upset that he left the court without shaking hands, a poor bit of sportsmanship. James is now the ultimate sportsman. He hardly looks upset at all.

As he walks off the court, he half-heartedly high-fives a few fans. Then he takes off his Cavaliers jersey. Of course, the announcer wonders if it will be the last time that he ever does. I hope not, of course. I hope LeBron James stays in Cleveland, for many reasons, only a handful of them selfish. I hope he realizes that he doesn't need the bright lights -- he IS the bright lights, and the center of the sports world follows him wherever he goes. I hope LeBron James appreciates that no city will ever love him like Cleveland.

And I hope LeBron James looks back at the sad, even pathetic, way that this season ended and wants to make it right. In the end, though, LeBron's decision is for another time, and whatever he does you can't blame a man for following his heart. What's left of the wreckage of this night is another Cleveland heartache, though not quite like any of the previous Cleveland heartaches. This heartache has no catchy name like The Drive or Red Right 88. This heartache is just about a team getting outworked and outplayed by an old team of Boston champions. This heartache is about a Cleveland team that quit the first chance it had. This heartache is about the last minute of the season, when the Cleveland Cavaliers decided there was no point in trying anymore.

And in its own strange way, this heartache was the bitterest one of them all.


Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/joe_posnanski/05/14/lebron.cavaliers/index.html#ixzz0oDovr3zh

well written article.... cavs fans can follow the author on twitter. :chuckle:

revefsreleets
05-17-2010, 09:07 AM
How could LeBron leave Parma?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3oTCatzz7A

MACH1
05-17-2010, 10:30 AM
"I spoil people with my play," LeBron said afterward. That rubbed people the wrong way. Spoil people? He had been a part of zero championship teams. Spoil people?

http://26.media.tumblr.com/8Umytvl9ko5oht4nLXEQ2OZTo1_400.jpg

xfl2001fan
05-17-2010, 02:38 PM
If he does resign is the trend of giving up in the last three minutes going to continue too? Not to be an ass, but I couldn't believe how easily they quit. I say they because it was a team quit including lebron.

The team (all inclusive) did quit. I don't know if Lebron's elbow was hurting more than he let on (or was at least weaker)...but it appeared as such by all the clangs off the front of the rim...the wayward passes and (essentially) his mass number of turnovers. Only in Game 1 and Game 4 (when he had extra time to rest his elbow) did he play like the Lebron that Cavs fans have come to know and love.

No excuse for Mo/Jamison disappearing...and (former, I hope) Coach Brown's piss poor rotations, questionable timeout (non)useage.

The team needs to figure out what it's identity is going to be moving forward.

Nadroj 20
05-17-2010, 07:45 PM
The team (all inclusive) did quit. I don't know if Lebron's elbow was hurting more than he let on (or was at least weaker)...but it appeared as such by all the clangs off the front of the rim...the wayward passes and (essentially) his mass number of turnovers. Only in Game 1 and Game 4 (when he had extra time to rest his elbow) did he play like the Lebron that Cavs fans have come to know and love.

No excuse for Mo/Jamison disappearing...and (former, I hope) Coach Brown's piss poor rotations, questionable timeout (non)useage.

The team needs to figure out what it's identity is going to be moving forward.

Bolded part is KEY....i think step one to get LBJ back is send Brown packing

SteelersinCA
05-17-2010, 09:06 PM
No excuse for Mo/Jamison disappearing...and (former, I hope) Coach Brown's piss poor rotations, questionable timeout (non)useage.



Are you really still surprised by Mo's disappearance in the playoffs? Christian Laettner and Keith Van Horn put up Jamison #'s.

revefsreleets
05-18-2010, 08:31 AM
Bolded part is KEY....i think step one to get LBJ back is send Brown packing
Brown will be fired next week.

James wants Calipari coaching his team. If the Cavs hire him, it's about 100% sure that James will be back...

Ferry is reporting that both Shaq and James were actually INJURED for the last 4 games of the season (and, ostensibly, into the playoffs), they weren't being rested. James also averaged 29.1 PPG, 9.3 RPG and 7.3 APG in the Celtics series...that doesn't really sound like "quitting" to me.

MACH1
05-18-2010, 11:29 AM
Brown will be fired next week.

James wants Calipari coaching his team. If the Cavs hire him, it's about 100% sure that James will be back...

Ferry is reporting that both Shaq and James were actually INJURED for the last 4 games of the season (and, ostensibly, into the playoffs), they weren't being rested. James also averaged 29.1 PPG, 9.3 RPG and 7.3 APG in the Celtics series...that doesn't really sound like "quitting" to me.

Well, at least you have the stat book to set in your trophy case. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Walking the ball up and watching the clock run out isn't exactly giving it your all. Like I said let the excuses fly.

revefsreleets
05-18-2010, 11:38 AM
Well, at least you have the stat book to set in your trophy case. :rofl::rofl::rofl:


Walking the ball up and watching the clock run out isn't exactly giving it your all. Like I said let the excuses fly.


The "Champs only" argument is garbage. Barry Sanders never won a thing...neither did Marino. If this was a player the haters liked they'd wear the other shoe comfortably.

But it's all ya got so you gotta run with it.

MACH1
05-18-2010, 12:10 PM
How's that stat book looking in your trophy case.

Remember quitters don't win.

revefsreleets
05-18-2010, 12:14 PM
How's that stat book looking in your trophy case.

Remember quitters don't win.
Garbage in.
Garbage out.

Par for the course for a braintrust member.

MACH1
05-18-2010, 12:33 PM
And quitters still never win!

revefsreleets
05-18-2010, 02:06 PM
Carl Yastremski
Charles Barkley
Dick Butkus
OJ Simpson (based on his on-field performance, NOT his double homicide)
Elgin Baylor
Ted Williams
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Allen Iverson
Greg Norman
Mark Martin
Patrick Ewing
Dirk Niwitzki
Barry Bonds
Jim Kelly
Lebron James
Barry Sanders
Dan Marino

All losers according to the collective wisdom of the braintrust due to lack of titles.

MACH1
05-18-2010, 02:31 PM
Carl Yastremski
Charles Barkley
Dick Butkus
OJ Simpson (based on his on-field performance, NOT his double homicide)
Elgin Baylor
Ted Williams
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Allen Iverson
Greg Norman
Mark Martin
Patrick Ewing
Dirk Niwitzki
Barry Bonds
Jim Kelly
Lebron James
Barry Sanders
Dan Marino

All losers according to the collective wisdom of the braintrust due to lack of titles.

Thats your opinion.

At least they never QUIT.

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r201/low-nslow/Smajli/Enbi/cavsfish00.jpg

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r201/low-nslow/Smajli/Enbi/LEFISH01.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2uzxlz7.jpg

tony hipchest
05-18-2010, 06:06 PM
according to the collective wisdom of the 2 braincells in the ohio guru homer club, LeQuit James is better than-

joe montana
jerry rice
michael jordan
tiger woods
muhamad ali
wayne gretsky
lou alcindor
terry bradshaw
derrick jeter
babe ruth
otto graham
magic johnson
bill russell
richard petty
and that his
nut sweat
tastes like
sugar coated
gum drops

i had to look in all the other 2010 lebron threads to see if any actual nba playoff talk was going on and stumbled across this gem-

The bottom line is the Celtics are old and the Cavs are, for the most part, young. It's like boxing, where the old boxer needs to head butt and hit below the belt to hang in the fight, use all the tricks he's learned over the years. But the Cavs are simply the far better team and they need to overcome the adversity and win this series in 6 (or less)...

:rofl: back to the bench 12th man scrub!

Aussie_steeler
05-19-2010, 06:00 AM
Carl Yastremski
Charles Barkley
Dick Butkus
OJ Simpson (based on his on-field performance, NOT his double homicide)
Elgin Baylor
Ted Williams
John Stockton
Karl Malone
Allen Iverson
Greg Norman
Mark Martin
Patrick Ewing
Dirk Niwitzki
Barry Bonds
Jim Kelly
Lebron James
Barry Sanders
Dan Marino

All losers according to the collective wisdom of the braintrust due to lack of titles.

Baseballers, Footballers and basketball players may warrant a place on your list.

Yes they may not have won the title at the end of the line for their respective pursuits.

But why the hell drag a proven winner in a totally unrelated sport into your rant.

FYI Greg Norman competed in an individual sport that pits 144 players against each other on a weekly basis. The sport does not recognise one true world championship. It places four tournaments on a higher level than others to afford a status symbol to measure / compare success. It is hard to find a list of players that have achieved more victories on the golf course. Golf is a sport where the american administrators have not been able to self proclaim their own championships as "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS".

Golf is truly a world game and one in which Greg Norman dominated for 331 straight weeks as the World Number one golfer.

FYI Greg Norman won 20 tournaments on the USPGA tour.
FYI Greg Norman won 14 tournaments on the European tour. Two of those happened to be majors, the 1986 and 1993 British opens

FYI Greg Norman won 31 tournaments on the Australasian tour. 5 of those victories were in the Australian Open ( our national tournament and highest honour) . A tournament that Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player considered the 5th major in the 60's and 70's.

FYI Greg Norman won 25 other tournaments around the world. Some of those included events with such names as World Match Play Champion ( 3 times) and the Anderson Consulting World Championship of golf.

Stick to referencing basketballers and footballers in your discussions, where you seem to think you know what you are talking about. Golf is obviously not an area you know much about.

Greg Norman is an Australian Icon and proven winner and I would love to help educate you on the finer points of the game of golf, if interested fellow braintrust member.

revefsreleets
05-19-2010, 08:39 AM
Why does this not surprise me? I produce a list with 18 names on it, and make ONE mistake, and the haters and detractors and braintrust members fall all over themselves to IGNORE the validity of the spirit of the post and point out the one little effing error.

I actually feel sorry for people who feel the need to thump their chest after such and empty Pyrrhic "victory". Poor bastards...

And to top it all off, I'm called a Kool Aid drinker because I point out the FACT that not all great athletes are defined by the titles they've failed to win?

Pathetic....sad little pathetic internet people....

SteelersinCA
05-19-2010, 08:42 AM
Baseballers, Footballers and basketball players may warrant a place on your list.

Yes they may not have won the title at the end of the line for their respective pursuits.

But why the hell drag a proven winner in a totally unrelated sport into your rant.

FYI Greg Norman competed in an individual sport that pits 144 players against each other on a weekly basis. The sport does not recognise one true world championship. It places four tournaments on a higher level than others to afford a status symbol to measure / compare success. It is hard to find a list of players that have achieved more victories on the golf course. Golf is a sport where the american administrators have not been able to self proclaim their own championships as "WORLD CHAMPIONSHIPS".

Golf is truly a world game and one in which Greg Norman dominated for 331 straight weeks as the World Number one golfer.

FYI Greg Norman won 20 tournaments on the USPGA tour.
FYI Greg Norman won 14 tournaments on the European tour. Two of those happened to be majors, the 1986 and 1993 British opens

FYI Greg Norman won 31 tournaments on the Australasian tour. 5 of those victories were in the Australian Open ( our national tournament and highest honour) . A tournament that Jack Nicklaus and Gary Player considered the 5th major in the 60's and 70's.

FYI Greg Norman won 25 other tournaments around the world. Some of those included events with such names as World Match Play Champion ( 3 times) and the Anderson Consulting World Championship of golf.

Stick to referencing basketballers and footballers in your discussions, where you seem to think you know what you are talking about. Golf is obviously not an area you know much about.

Greg Norman is an Australian Icon and proven winner and I would love to help educate you on the finer points of the game of golf, if interested fellow braintrust member.

Careful, you are speaking with facts and logic. That's not appreciated by the kool-aid drinkers. Apparently they can't read either.

Nadroj 20
05-19-2010, 09:22 AM
according to the collective wisdom of the 2 braincells in the ohio guru homer club, LeQuit James is better than-

joe montana
jerry rice
michael jordan
tiger woods
muhamad ali
wayne gretsky
lou alcindor
terry bradshaw
derrick jeter
babe ruth
otto graham
magic johnson
bill russell
richard petty
and that his
nut sweat
tastes like
sugar coated
gum drops

i had to look in all the other 2010 lebron threads to see if any actual nba playoff talk was going on and stumbled across this gem-



:rofl: back to the bench 12th man scrub!

If you can not see that LeBron James will go down as one of the best athletes in history that's really sad to be missing the obvious, REGARDLESS of titles :coffee:

revefsreleets
05-19-2010, 09:28 AM
Found this...not my words, but since apparently I'm too ignorant about golf to even have an opinion, I thought perhaps the view of an avid golf fan would lend some legitimacy.



If any one player has had the worst luck ever, it has been Greg Norman. Although he has won the British Open twice, Norman never won any of the major US Titles. He has finished second in all three major US Tournaments (the Masters, US Open, and the Open Championship) five times.

Norman also had a chance to win the Grand Slam in 1986 and although he finished first in the British Open that year, Norman finished second in two of the three opens in the US.

The saddest part is he was normally leading in most of these tournaments, but choked away the leads; talk about bad luck.


Oh, and, Nadroj....this is so much less about facts and what's real and so much more about simply always taking the position contrary to mine...

MACH1
05-19-2010, 10:55 AM
LeBron James: Not Man Enough To See It Through

LeBron James is used to putting on a basketball performance the likes of which we've never seen before. In Games 4, 5 and 6 of the Eastern Conference semifinal series with the Boston Celtics, he awed us.

Only this time, the man who once scored 29 of the final 30 points for his Cleveland Cavaliers in a double-overtime victory in Game 5 of the Eastern Conference Finals against the Detroit Pistons showed us that heís capable of something we never thought weíd see him do -- quit.

The excuses are all there for a man who never makes excuses: maybe his end goal was to get Head Coach Mike Brown fired, maybe the elbow injury is more serious than he is letting on, maybe impending free agency was too much of a burden.

LeBron James is heartless

But nobody thought we would see a lack of heart from King James. In Game 5, he was disinterested. In Game 6, he was more interested in a triple-double than a win. Maybe weíd expect this from Joe Johnson, but not LeBron James, right? (stats are everything)

Apparently not. Therein lies the difference; itís what separates LeBron James from the Michael Jordans and Larry Birds of the world. Heís not the man that they were. Itís no longer a question of talent or skill; itís a question of heart.

Take it personal

Jordan and Bird would have never allowed Game 5 to happen -- a 32-point home loss in a 2-2 series tie -- and if they somehow did, you can bet your house that they would die hard with a vengeance in Game 6. They would take it personally.

Players like Bird, Jordan, Kevin Garnett and Dwyane Wade would sooner collapse on the court than lose in that fashion. Itís no coincidence that the latter three players were picked for the Gatorade ďThatís GĒ commercial and LeBron James was not.

The Pistons used to be a big roadblock for Jordan, but he never bolted. He saw it through with Chicago. Thatís G.

Garnett would have retired a Timberwolf no matter how many times they missed the playoffs. Thatís G.

Wade and the Miami Heat were on the brink of an insurmountable 0-3 deficit in the 2006 NBA Finals before he single-handedly willed his team to victory in the game and series. Thatís G.

But at this point in time, after watching LeBron James wilt under the pressure, we can say that he simply doesnít have the heart to stay and see things through.

LeBron James is turning his back

James has tried his best in Cleveland -- at least until this playoff series -- and since he canít win with this team and since the Cavs wonít have the financial flexibility to make wholesale changes, itís inevitable that LeBron James will leave.

And for him, itís the easiest time to turn his back and walk away. After all, itís easier to quit and walk away from the face of adversity than to try, and try, and try until you succeed.

The Cavaliers are a 61-win team, which you might find hard to believe at this moment. They may only be a coaching or point guard change away from being a dynasty, and while LeBron James had a financial agreement contracting him to perform for the Cleveland Cavaliers for his entire career, he apparently hasnít made the unspoken agreement that heís here to see things through.

LeBron James is not G

But Jamesí final performances and his choice to leave Cleveland now that the going has gotten tough, thatís not G.

ďWhatís G?Ē as the commercial asks and answers, ďIt is the heart, hustle and soul of the game.Ē After watching Game 4 and 5, LeBron James is not G.

At the end of the day, he doesnít owe the Cavaliers -- or their fans -- anything. Heís fulfilled his contract and heíll go to New York to be the biggest superstar or heíll go to Chicago to transition the Jordan era to his, but a real man would see it through.

Bodie didnít ditch the corners when Marlo took over, Vincent Chase would never ditch E, Turtle and Drama, and Jake Sully wouldnít leave the Naívi so they could become extinct.

Those men saw it through, but LeBron James didnít, canít and wonít.
http://www.askmen.com/sports/fanatic_250/293_lebron-james-not-man-enough-to-see-it-through.html

At least you have that stat book.

revefsreleets
05-19-2010, 11:16 AM
Askmen.com....

Bwahahahahahahahahahahahaha!

It's one thing to quote Wojnarowski, who, although an over-the-top complete sell-out as an LBJ hater, at least has SOME cred working for yahoo sports, but posting up some 3rd rate blogger from a 4th rate site is just awful.

I just wonder how much of this is just hate for me and everything I post and how much of it is real ignorance...can you guys REALLY be this stupid?

MACH1
05-19-2010, 11:26 AM
You should take a lesson from lechoke and learn when to quit.

At least you have those stat books.

http://www.furniturestoreblog.com/image/Wall%20Hanging%20Bookshelf.jpg

revefsreleets
05-19-2010, 11:34 AM
Guess I know which it is...at least in your case. Then again, I may be guilty of giving you a little too much credit to begin with, being an avid Glen Beck disciple and all...

X-Terminator
05-19-2010, 12:17 PM
Oh man, I read this thread and I swear I'm reading about Sidney Crosby. Because he might be the one player who inspires this much hatred by so many fans that LBJ does. The main difference though is Sid is a champion, and LBJ isn't.

Sorry for the hijack...carry on.

SteelersinCA
05-19-2010, 02:11 PM
Found this...not my words, but since apparently I'm too ignorant about golf to even have an opinion, I thought perhaps the view of an avid golf fan would lend some legitimacy.



If any one player has had the worst luck ever, it has been Greg Norman. Although he has won the British Open twice, Norman never won any of the major US Titles. He has finished second in all three major US Tournaments (the Masters, US Open, and the Open Championship) five times.

Norman also had a chance to win the Grand Slam in 1986 and although he finished first in the British Open that year, Norman finished second in two of the three opens in the US.

The saddest part is he was normally leading in most of these tournaments, but choked away the leads; talk about bad luck.


Oh, and, Nadroj....this is so much less about facts and what's real and so much more about simply always taking the position contrary to mine...

Nice attempt at feverish backpedaling, what you said (before you so quickly edited it) was, "How many MAJORS has Greg Norman won? Zero. The rest of your post is too right for me to respond to so I'll just call it garbage that isn't worth my time to respond to."

Now, it switches to US Majors and bad luck...:wave: fellow braintrust member!!

lamberts-lost-tooth
05-19-2010, 02:13 PM
Oh man, I read this thread and I swear I'm reading about Sidney Crosby. Because he might be the one player who inspires this much hatred by so many fans that LBJ does. The main difference though is Sid is a champion, and LBJ isn't.

Sorry for the hijack...carry on.

Word out of Chicago is that Lebron is going to end up being a Bull before all is said and done.

SteelersinCA
05-19-2010, 02:16 PM
If you can not see that LeBron James will go down as one of the best athletes in history that's really sad to be missing the obvious, REGARDLESS of titles :coffee:

The argument between MACH and guru was never about great athletes. Mach pointed out the Cavs, including James, QUIT. Anyone except for the most ardent homer, i.e. guru, can see that. He deflected into a title argument, which only tangentially has anything to do with quitting. The obvious fact of the Cavs quitting has nothing to do with LBJ having a title of being a great athlete. Guru just can't take LBJ's pole (the only thing NE ohio has to cling to these days) out of his mouth long enough to admit the dude quit.

revefsreleets
05-19-2010, 03:31 PM
I don't believe he quit, lawyer boy, and the "homer" tag really is ironic, considering your own geographic self hatred and attempt to purge that by renouncing your home town teams and adopting all the winners from your new state...and MACH's ***** hurts because he's getting blasted in another thread.

I despise people who shift allegiances when the move away, clasping on to the new town winners. Once you start dumping your old teams and just clinging to winners, the front-runnerism really never ends.

What would be the POSSIBLE logic behind the Cavs quitting? It doesn't compute unless you just blindly hate...then it fits.

Oh, and I'd like to point out that I DID admit I was wrong about Norman. Try it sometime...I mean, you're wrong often enough, it can't hurt to say it ONCE, could it?

MACH1
05-19-2010, 03:38 PM
Doesn't matter what you believe. The fact is they QUIT. Debunked!

http://img39.imageshack.us/img39/7692/cavsgonefishing.jpg

http://i641.photobucket.com/albums/uu138/rgfhgdghhfd/cavs.jpg

Aussie_steeler
05-19-2010, 03:41 PM
Found this...not my words, but since apparently I'm too ignorant about golf to even have an opinion, I thought perhaps the view of an avid golf fan would lend some legitimacy.



If any one player has had the worst luck ever, it has been Greg Norman. Although he has won the British Open twice, Norman never won any of the major US Titles. He has finished second in all three major US Tournaments (the Masters, US Open, and the Open Championship) five times.

Norman also had a chance to win the Grand Slam in 1986 and although he finished first in the British Open that year, Norman finished second in two of the three opens in the US.

The saddest part is he was normally leading in most of these tournaments, but choked away the leads; talk about bad luck.


Oh, and, Nadroj....this is so much less about facts and what's real and so much more about simply always taking the position contrary to mine...

If you are compiling a list of sporting stars who wasted opportunities to build on their career achievements then obviously you would include the great white shark. That is an absolute no brainer.

But to put the man on a list that is about sportsmen that have failed to win the big one is just plain wrong.

Norman did succumb to the pressure in majors on more than one occasion. But always remember that Greg Norman did win tournaments. And during the late 80's adn early 90's he was prolific when it came to winning.

Golfers dont claim shallow or hollow victories, like who shot the lowest score on anygiven day. Its about who is standing at the top of the mountain at the end of the tournament. Over 80 times at the top of the mountain, worldwide.

Jack Nicklaus won 20 majors and was prolific on the US tour. But a golfer will also know what Jack's record was when he didnt win. Jack has more 2nd and 3rd place finishes in majors than anyone else. Even the games absolute greatest lost.

In golf you just cant win all the time. Not even the great tiger is capable of such a feat.
But you win one major, you know what, you join the list of major winners. Last time I checked one Greg Norman was on that list. And until they change the tournaments that are recognised as majors, he will always remain on that list as

"British Open Champion 1986 & 1993"

revefsreleets
05-19-2010, 03:44 PM
As I said, I DID acknowledge that I was wrong in re Norman. However, the sentiment is still the same about champions without championships...

I don't believe that an NBA MVP who has clearly stated that a title is his ultimate dream "quit". It defies logic.

Nadroj 20
05-19-2010, 04:10 PM
The argument between MACH and guru was never about great athletes. Mach pointed out the Cavs, including James, QUIT. Anyone except for the most ardent homer, i.e. guru, can see that. He deflected into a title argument, which only tangentially has anything to do with quitting. The obvious fact of the Cavs quitting has nothing to do with LBJ having a title of being a great athlete. Guru just can't take LBJ's pole (the only thing NE ohio has to cling to these days) out of his mouth long enough to admit the dude quit.

How do you know for sure he quit? How does anyone know?

Even if it appeared that he did his elbow was more then likely hurting more then they were letting on. Is that for sure the truth? No. But when its POSSIBLE LBJ had an injury as an excuse as to not playing well or being "out of it".. i dont see how its a FACT he quit on his team?

Aussie_steeler
05-19-2010, 04:20 PM
As I said, I DID acknowledge that I was wrong in re Norman. However, the sentiment is still the same about champions without championships...

I don't believe that an NBA MVP who has clearly stated that a title is his ultimate dream "quit". It defies logic.

Rev - I know very little about basketball. :wave: You guys can continue this discussion about Labron. ( I know next to nothing about basketball so I am out)

:drink:

tony hipchest
05-19-2010, 05:21 PM
If you can not see that LeBron James will go down as one of the best athletes in history that's really sad to be missing the obvious, REGARDLESS of titles :coffee:make no mistake about it... i think lebon-bon is one of the most atheletic players in the nba today. the problem with revs is trying to pass off subjective opinion off as indisputable fact in the most homeristic fashion, even in the face of logic.

i would say labron and michael jordan are kinda the NBA equivalent of walter payton and jerry rice (never mind that 1 of the 4 cant win a champ). there are some that say jerry rice was the best pure football player ever. him and walter are unparalleled in their work ethic. neither could hold these titles if they didnt win a championship.

theres a difference between beeing a great athelete and a great player. in order to be a great player, you must win. the purpose to play a game is to win. the criteria is set by its own definition.

i believe it is in the ghetto of queensbridge where they have the streetball leagues that are said to have ballers whos skills and atheletisizm rivals many NBA players.

but you know what? they suck as nba players because they are unable to compete and win on that level.

anyways my OPINION of lebron doesnt count. i bet kobe could beat him in the boston marathon. i think d. howard could beat him in lifting weights (maybe kobe can to) jump higher, and beat him in a dunk competition. i bet steve nash would run circles around him on a soccer field. pound for pound, allen iverson may have been the most atheletic nba player we have seen in 20 years. he is probably better at football than labron, too.

some people say tiger woods is the greatest athelete since jordan (i scoff at this and also know it is their winning that helps the perception). can james do what lance armstrong or michael phelps did? could he win a decathalon? could he really dominate 1 sport, while being a star in the other like deion sanders or bo jackson? i bet michael jordan was a better baseball player.

there have been so many great atheletes in history, it is really difficult to even narrow down a list of 20. i would place lebron up there though.

BUT heres the simple answer to revs little internal dilemma-

payton manning, tom brady, joe montana, terry bradshaw could give 2 shits if they ever made that list. not only arent they top 20 atheletes in history, they aren even top 20 atheletes in the history of the nfl. they are considered the best PLAYERS in the game though.

if youre the best player but you never win when it counts, then by definition you are not the best player.

theres more to winning than simply having the required strength, skills, stamina, agility etc. required to be an athelete. those who find that "more" are the best.

sometimes it just takes luck, a healthier mind, intestinal fortitude and heart, or better situation. either way, it is what it is.

we cant redefine "it" for lebron james just to appease whiny homer fans who have nothing else to cling onto.

tony hipchest
05-19-2010, 06:30 PM
Why does this not surprise me? I produce a list with 18 names on it, and make ONE mistake, and the haters and detractors and braintrust members fall all over themselves to IGNORE the validity of the spirit of the post and point out the one little effing error.



and herein lies the rub... there was absolutely NO VALIDITY of the spirit of your post. it was the worst case of a strawman argument you have used in several weeks. i thought you were smarter than that. i admit... i was wrong.

it was a complete misrepresentation of an entire group of posters stances and takes.

your obsession has gone so far overboard, that you called out Aussi_Steeler for no reason whatsoever.

the beautiful (and somewhat disgusting) thing is, that when he promtly handed you your ass and set you straight, you had to scurry/slither to erase your post and the self inflicted emarrassement it undoubtedly brought you.

i pity you. you have completely invalidated yourself and anything you post or any take you may have with the repeated diversion, spin, misrepresentation, and smart assed remarks such as these-

All losers according to the collective wisdom of the braintrust due to lack of titles.

:doh: complete misrepresentation. why you feel the need to have everyone else slob lebrons knob is beyond me (and im a huge lebron fan who is looking to see him in the finals every year.)

nobody takes you seriously anymore (which you desperately need for validation). i am the complete opposite. i dont want (nor expect) anyone to take me seriously. i post here for entertainment and hopefully make people laugh (even at the expense of you).

what is truly sad, is how much like LITP you have become. there were times he could have a 100% spot on, intelligent, post yet everyone would dismiss it, simply for whom it was coming from.

this thread is a perfect example of that. you actually believe that your post and list had validity. :laughing: LBJ is your tom brady. through alot of hard work you have morphed into that in which you hated. the transformation has happened so slowly, you are not even self cognizant.

carry on, NM. :wave:

Nadroj 20
05-19-2010, 07:40 PM
make no mistake about it... i think lebon-bon is one of the most atheletic players in the nba today. the problem with revs is trying to pass off subjective opinion off as indisputable fact in the most homeristic fashion, even in the face of logic.

i would say labron and michael jordan are kinda the NBA equivalent of walter payton and jerry rice (never mind that 1 of the 4 cant win a champ). there are some that say jerry rice was the best pure football player ever. him and walter are unparalleled in their work ethic. neither could hold these titles if they didnt win a championship.

theres a difference between beeing a great athelete and a great player. in order to be a great player, you must win. the purpose to play a game is to win. the criteria is set by its own definition.

i believe it is in the ghetto of queensbridge where they have the streetball leagues that are said to have ballers whos skills and atheletisizm rivals many NBA players.

but you know what? they suck as nba players because they are unable to compete and win on that level.

anyways my OPINION of lebron doesnt count. i bet kobe could beat him in the boston marathon. i think d. howard could beat him in lifting weights (maybe kobe can to) jump higher, and beat him in a dunk competition. i bet steve nash would run circles around him on a soccer field. pound for pound, allen iverson may have been the most atheletic nba player we have seen in 20 years. he is probably better at football than labron, too.

some people say tiger woods is the greatest athelete since jordan (i scoff at this and also know it is their winning that helps the perception). can james do what lance armstrong or michael phelps did? could he win a decathalon? could he really dominate 1 sport, while being a star in the other like deion sanders or bo jackson? i bet michael jordan was a better baseball player.

there have been so many great atheletes in history, it is really difficult to even narrow down a list of 20. i would place lebron up there though.

BUT heres the simple answer to revs little internal dilemma-

payton manning, tom brady, joe montana, terry bradshaw could give 2 shits if they ever made that list. not only arent they top 20 atheletes in history, they aren even top 20 atheletes in the history of the nfl. they are considered the best PLAYERS in the game though.

if youre the best player but you never win when it counts, then by definition you are not the best player.

theres more to winning than simply having the required strength, skills, stamina, agility etc. required to be an athelete. those who find that "more" are the best.

sometimes it just takes luck, a healthier mind, intestinal fortitude and heart, or better situation. either way, it is what it is.

we cant redefine "it" for lebron james just to appease whiny homer fans who have nothing else to cling onto.

I'll be honest....hell of a post.

I am not a whiny homer even though im not sure if that was directed toward me? But anyway i do get all of your points. I am just one that feels that winning championships is just icing on the cake. Dont know why i feel that way but i do. Maybe because players who cant be labeled as one of the best HAVE titles and some of the greats DONT.

I guess it is just a difference in opinions because i do agree with all of your points but in the end still feel like LeBron still needs to be considered one of the greats.

Wallace108
05-19-2010, 09:03 PM
LeBron James is a heck of an athlete, but he lacks what players such as Jordan, Magic, Bird and even Kobe have ... a killer instinct, the ability to take over a game when it matters, and the refusal to lose.

When I watch Lebron play, he doesn't remind me of Jordan or Kobe ... he reminds me of Dominique Wilkins. During the 80s and early 90s, Dominique was called the "Human Highlight Film" because he could do what no one else, not even Jordan, could do on the court.

Dominique was an absolute freak on the court. He made plays that Jordan could only dream about. He put up great stats and won individual accolades. But he never won a championship. The Atlanta Hawks teams with Dominique were every bit as good as the Bulls teams with Jordan. But unlike Jordan, Dominique lacked the leadership, the killer instinct, and the ability to make those around him better.

Being a great athlete and having phenomenal talent isn't enough. You need the intangibles that Jordan had, that Kobe has. Without those intangibles, Lebron James isn't Michael Jordan or Kobe Bryant ... he's Dominique Wilkins.

tony hipchest
05-19-2010, 09:56 PM
I am not a whiny homer even though im not sure if that was directed toward me? But anyway i do get all of your points. I am just one that feels that winning championships is just icing on the cake. Dont know why i feel that way but i do. Maybe because players who cant be labeled as one of the best HAVE titles and some of the greats DONT.

I guess it is just a difference in opinions because i do agree with all of your points but in the end still feel like LeBron still needs to be considered one of the greats.nah, you dont strike me as a homer at all. just a normal rational lebron james fan, much like myself.

i just cant sit by and watch my position being repeatedly misconstrued by a fanatic.

being that i really dont have a "team" (other than the sonics) i am able to maintain a certain level of objectivity. i root more for the players and am a huge NBA fan in general.

i am indifferent to the celtics but have always liked garnett, allen and even pierce (i have an old t-wolves garnett jersey and bucks ray allen from their rookie years). i cant stand dallas (especially the cowboys) but i like most of their players and have an ancient jason kidd jersey that i would still wear proudly if it fit.

i wish lebron was going for his third ring so i would have a leg to stand on in making a case for him as the best player today. defending kobe makes me sick. but only a myopic homer would make a case like this to someone who contends that kobe is-

The "Champs only" argument is garbage. Barry Sanders never won a thing...neither did Marino. If this was a player the haters liked they'd wear the other shoe comfortably.

But it's all ya got so you gotta run with it.

i mean one really cant hitch their argument to the LeStat James bandwagon and throw out all of kobes stats along with his 6 finals appearances and 4 ring (possibly embarking on yet another).

kobe is the highest scoring laker in history.

jerry west
wilt chamberlain
kareem abdul jabaar
tragic johnson
shaq oneal

even if lescore is the highest scoring cav in history, it really isnt saying much considering the above company.

i might as well say kevin durant is the best player in the nba. :noidea:

MACH1
05-19-2010, 10:05 PM
I highly doubt any of the above players got dunked on by a high school kid either. :toofunny:

HometownGal
05-20-2010, 05:25 AM
If the childish name-calling and ignorant remarks don't cease in this thread, I'm going to lock it down. Enough is enough.

revefsreleets
05-20-2010, 07:59 AM
So, we're done then. Because I FIRMLY stand behind the contention that even if LBJ ultimately wins zero titles in his time (which is extremely unlikely), he's still going to be a top 5 all-time player, perhaps even mentioned as the greatest someday.

Ted Williams hit lifetime .344. He had 521 home runs. Was a two time MVP. Perhaps the greatest hitter in the history of baseball (and he's in some HEAVY competition here), never won a title.

If that's too apples and oranges, how about Stockton/Malone? Two all-time great b-ball players, zero titles between them. Did they lack killer instinct? Did they lack the ability to make those around them better? What is their excuse for not winning a title?

And the homerism charge is empty rhetoric. Hell, I don't even really care for LBJ as a person, but I'm not going to let personal vendettas and blind ignorance based on hate taint my arguments here. It would be different if there were SEVERAL posters in this thread who basically trail around behind me and dispute practically everything I post. It destroys their credibility.

Finally, addressing this "he quit" nonsense, is anyone charging the Magic with quitting? Howard can't "finish" either? I mean, the Magic were THE hottest team in the NBA, and the Celts have basically handed them their asses AND at home.

Could it possibly be that the Celtics are just on fire right now and are playing THAT good?

Wallace108
05-20-2010, 09:27 AM
A long time ago, I got into a debate with three of my friends who were Celtics and Lakers fans. I was arguing that Jordan was better than Magic and Bird. They disagreed. And their argument was based on the fact that Jordan hadn't won a championship.

That same year, Jordan went on to win his first championship. After he won two more, I reminded my friends of the debate and said, "OK, now who do you think is better?" They still said Magic and Bird!!!!

It's all about your perspective and how you determine greatness. There's really no right or wrong answer here ...

MACH1
05-20-2010, 09:30 AM
Face it, they lequit.

Did the Magic stand around watching the clock run out or did they try to score? Unlike the lequiters.

MACH1
05-20-2010, 09:33 AM
A long time ago, I got into a debate with three of my friends who were Celtics and Lakers fans. I was arguing that Jordan was better than Magic and Bird. They disagreed. And their argument was based on the fact that Jordan hadn't won a championship.

That same year, Jordan went on to win his first championship. After he won two more, I reminded my friends of the debate and said, "OK, now who do you think is better?" They still said Magic and Bird!!!!

It's all about your perspective and how you determine greatness. There's really no right or wrong answer here ...

The thing with that is lequit has to earn being mentioned in the same breath with those guys. He hasn't done that yet. And stats isn't going to get him there.

Wallace108
05-20-2010, 10:13 AM
The thing with that is lequit has to earn being mentioned in the same breath with those guys. He hasn't done that yet. And stats isn't going to get him there.

Oh, I agree. That's why I compare LeBron to Dominique Wilkins and not Jordan, Bird, Magic, and Kobe. But that's just my opinion.

I consider Karl Malone one of the best players ever even though he never won a championship. Robert Horry won seven titles with three different teams, but I certainly don't consider him a great player.

My point was that I don't judge a player's greatness on statistics OR championships. I look at the intangibles. Some people focus on statistics, some focus on championships, some focus on other criteria ... there's not a clearly defined definition when judging a player's greatness. It's open to our own interpretation, so there's not a right or wrong answer when saying a certain player is one of the greatest ever.

That's why it should be nothing more than a fun debate, because it's impossible for someone to win it. That's all I was saying ...

revefsreleets
05-20-2010, 02:09 PM
I believe the MVP award is germane...it's sort of silly to ignore the fact that it was a lopsided affair.

Also, sportwriters vote for the award. I'd like to think that they know a bit about what they are voting for.

Of course, that hardly compares to the intellectual juggernaut of an argument "he quit", but....

Anyway, yes, it is objective. But what is it exactly that we are discussing here? I'm simply saying that you needn't have a trophy case full of championships to be the best at your TEAM sport. As far as LBJ quitting, that kind of stuff belongs in another forum, like the conspiracy theory forum.

stlrtruck
05-20-2010, 03:08 PM
As far as LBJ quitting, that kind of stuff belongs in another forum, like the conspiracy theory forum.

You're right he didn't quit, the entire team quit. It was evident in their play, and it was evident in their demeanor.

revefsreleets
05-20-2010, 03:25 PM
I'm sorry, I don't buy that, at least not out of James. His play was clearly not up to specs there at the end, but there has to be another more valid reason. Why would he quit?

More interestingly to me is the fact that, although clearly (for whatever reason) off his A game, he still averaged nearly 30 PPG, 9.3 RPG and 7.2 APG in the series. Also, if he quit, why did he have 10 assists and an astonishing NINETEEN rebounds in the last game?

The people espousing this ridiculous notion that he was simply going through the motions then also must acknowledge his ultimate greatness, because the guy put up stellar numbers while not even trying or quitting, or whatever the assertion is. In fact, people were talking about Rondo's 29 points, 18 boards and 13 assists as one of the greatest playoff performances EVER, yet the stat line isn't that far off LBJ's AVERAGE through the series.

Are you really suggesting that he was slacking off? Isn't it MUCH more obvious and logical that he was hurt? Any reasonable person examining the evidence and NOT filtering it through a bias against either James OR hatred for me should easily be able to make the safe assumption that something was off with James other than his effort. People who quit don't snag 19 boards ina game.

MACH1
05-20-2010, 03:37 PM
Let the excuses fly. Plain and simple - they QUIT.

I got something for your trophy case.

http://floorgamestats.com/bookbluebacktn.jpg

:toofunny::toofunny:

tony hipchest
05-20-2010, 05:25 PM
Are you really suggesting that he was slacking off? Isn't it MUCH more obvious and logical that he was hurt? Any reasonable person examining the evidence and NOT filtering it through a bias against either James OR hatred for me should easily be able to make the safe assumption that something was off with James other than his effort. People who quit don't snag 19 boards ina game.lmao! are you really suggesting the entire sporting world hates you? :doh:

any reasonable person examining the evidence actually watches the games and doesnt filter their takes through rose colored glasses and the apologetic takes of ballwashing local media.

you dont get a pass for not watching.

ij6Cr487bLI

at the 2:06 mark the score was 85-92 (when the cavs scored their final point). the final basket of the game was scored at the 1:23 mark putting the celtics ahead by nine 85-94.

they cant score 1 basket in the final 2 minutes? really? i guess it would help if they tried. instead they gave up. the pouted. they QUIT. its on tape. like tomlin says "you are what you put on tape", and that night they were quitters.

everyone else can see this.

i have never seen that type of "give up" in a supposed championship calibur team. they were clearly overrated all along. the lack of effort and heart they showed was pathetic, and theres absolutely no excuse for it.

7 point deficit w/ more than 2 minutes to go and they dont even try? :dang: embarrassing. unfortunately for LeTripple-Double the injury excuse doesnt fly.

jordan had to go out and take the crown from the likes of magic, isaiah, and clyde.

LeCrown was given his as a rookie. not much to fight for, now is there?

i think the above comparisson to d. wilkins is a damn good one. another good one is ladainian tomlinson.

just remember... a great player who never wins anything is ultimately a loser.

take this opportunity to learn something from someone who knows much more than you-

WRxm0oGbnRI

tony hipchest
05-20-2010, 05:31 PM
care to explain why this guy hates you, revs?

The clock ticks down -- 56 seconds ... 55 seconds ... 54 seconds -- and Mike Brown waves his arms, and his players just stand there. They just bleeping stand there. You know they're not going to win. I know they're not going to win. Boston is beating Cleveland by nine, and that's too much. There are no miracles left, not for this disappointing Cleveland team, not for this wooden version of LeBron James. They are not going to win, not tonight. I know that, everybody knows that. But they just stand there. They just bleeping stand there.

"MOVE OR SOMETHING!" I hear myself shout.

Is this really how it ends? The Cavaliers players just stand there as the clock drains away -- now 51 seconds ... now 49 seconds ... now 47 seconds -- and even Mike Brown has stopped trying to wake the dead. He stands with his hands by his sides now, as defeated as his players. He can't even inspire them to foul.

There have been so many heartbreaking moments for us Cleveland fans ... each of them conveniently named so that they can be itemized when a Cleveland team loses yet again. Red Right 88. The Drive. The Fumble. The Shot. Old timers will remember Willie Mays' catch. Youngsters will remember Joel Skinner, the third-base coach who held up Kenny Lofton. Each of those moments, and others without names, were so heart wrenching for a city that has not won a championship since 1964.

But at least none of those teams quit. Maybe they faded. Maybe they choked. Maybe they even fell apart. But to quit? No, teams don't really quit. As Kansas State football coach Bill Snyder said when his team was credited for playing until the end of a game: "They don't let you quit."

Only ... they're just standing out there. They quit. Forty-five seconds. Forty-four. Forty-three. The Cavaliers are just standing back, away from the Celtics, waiting for the time to expire so they can leave, waiting for this season to end, waiting like this is some pointless Tuesday night game against Milwaukee or Phoenix in December. They're just waiting to go home. Maybe they can't win. But what kind of team just waits for the sad ending? What kind of players give up on a season when there's still time left on the clock?

In less than a minute, the clock will run out, and everyone will be talking about LeBron James. Where will he go? That will be the talk. The New Yorkers will talk about how the only place for LeBron to play is at Madison Square Garden, and they will stir up the ghosts of Willis Reed, and they will talk up the lights and the action and Broadway and Fifth Avenue and if you can't make it there and Derek Jeter and Donald Trump and pretzels on street corners and all of it.

The Chicago people will talk about Michael Jordan and cap money and Derrick Rose and what it's like to have the loyal people of that city and the Chicago wind at your back. The Miami people will talk up South Beach, and the Los Angeles people will talk up Hollywood, and they will all circle like buzzards around another Cleveland Catastrophe. The world will become mad ambulance chasers.

"Hey, Akron's a fine place," some ESPN announcer will say. "Love that Soapbox Derby and all." Ha ha! Yes, they will mock Cleveland, sure they will. They will wonder why LeBron would possibly want to stay in his hometown, where he is loved, where he is world famous, where he represents something larger than sports. They will tell him that he can shake the Cleveland dust off his feet and come somewhere so much more exciting. Yes. All that is coming in just 42 seconds, and 41 seconds, and 40 seconds.

And still the Cavaliers players just stand around waiting for it.

The Cavaliers lose the game because they aren't good enough. That's a surprise. Going into Game 5 of the series, they looked plenty good enough. And then, in Game 5, they got annihilated. Exposed. LeBron himself drifted, like he couldn't muster the energy, like he was tired of the expectations or the burden or something. He played the worst playoff game of his life. "Let someone else do it," he seemed to be saying all night long. There was no one else. The Celtics won by 32.

There had always been doubters about this Cleveland team, about the way they were put together, about the purpose of Shaq and the defense of Antawn Jamison and the consistency of Mo Williams. There have always been doubters, but on this night, the realization suddenly slapped everyone in the face. This team has chemistry problems. This team has a coaching problem. This team has a heart problem. This team is built for regular-season basketball, when players are going at two-thirds speed and the pain of losing is dulled by the realization that there's another game in New Jersey tomorrow night. It's like everyone woke up at the same time and realized, as Jamal Mashburn would say on television, that "Cleveland is a facade."

And the guy at the center of thing was LeBron James -- the man who dared call himself King. He took a ferocious beating for his bad game. More than that, he took a ferocious beating for not being Michael Jordan and not being Kobe Bryant.

"I spoil people with my play," LeBron said afterward. That rubbed people the wrong way. Spoil people? He had been a part of zero championship teams. Spoil people? But maybe that was part of what he was saying. Maybe what LeBron meant was that he has been such a good basketball player that people expect too much from him. They expect him to be a basketball assassin like Michael and Kobe. They expect him to double his intensity for a big game. They expect him to take on three, four, even five men singlehandedly. Maybe, LeBron was saying he just doesn't have that stuff in him.

The clock keeps ticking -- 35 seconds, 34 seconds, 33 seconds -- and Boston's Paul Pierce finally takes a shot. Pierce had taken over the game when it was still in doubt -- making two free throws, then a three, then another three, taking Boston's lead from three to 12. That was when it mattered. Now it doesn't matter. He misses. The Cavaliers get the rebound. They walk the ball slowly up the court. There's no urgency, no rush, no point -- 30 seconds, 29 seconds, 28 seconds. They might not even take a shot. LeBron is on the court. He is nowhere near the ball.

LeBron's numbers are special. He scored 27 points and grabbed 19 rebounds and added 10 assists. The headline writers and local television anchors will undoubtedly say that Boston won despite LeBron's triple-double. "Despite" will be the key word. But it's probably not right word.

Even with those numbers, LeBron seemed oddly distant. He turned the ball over nine times. He shot 8 of 21. He too easily gave up the ball time and again so that Anderson Varejao and Delonte West and Jamison could miss shots. LeBron did not make this his game. He did not put himself on the line. He did make back-to-back three-pointers with just over nine minutes left to cut the Cavaliers' deficit to four. But that was it. He made one field goal and turned the ball over twice in those last nine minutes.

Everyone wants to know what LeBron is thinking. His face is so placid. Is he hurt? Angry? Or maybe he doesn't want to be the hero. He's so unselfish, such a good passer, so eager to make other look good -- maybe he wants a team that allows him to be himself. Maybe he resents this team that relies so much on him to take center stage. Maybe he doesn't like having 40-plus years of Cleveland agony heaped on his shoulders. Maybe he wants it to be easy.

With 16 seconds left, Anderson Varejao shoots a three-point shot. Varejao from three -- that's how the season will end. He misses, of course, and no Cavaliers players even try for the rebound and Kevin Garnett gets the ball. There are 14 seconds left, now 13, now 12, and already the Cavaliers players are shaking hands. In a few minutes, Mike Brown will sit in front the press and talk about how his players fought hard to the finish. He will have a straight face when he says it.

The last few seconds seem to last forever, like it's one of those slow-motion sports scenes at the end of a movie. Four seconds. Three seconds. Two seconds. One second. And then, finally, it ends. The players shake hands. LeBron James hugs Celtics players, whispers good thoughts in their ears, wishes everyone luck. This, apparently, speaks to his newfound maturity. Last year, when the Cavaliers lost to Orlando, James was so upset that he left the court without shaking hands, a poor bit of sportsmanship. James is now the ultimate sportsman. He hardly looks upset at all.

As he walks off the court, he half-heartedly high-fives a few fans. Then he takes off his Cavaliers jersey. Of course, the announcer wonders if it will be the last time that he ever does. I hope not, of course. I hope LeBron James stays in Cleveland, for many reasons, only a handful of them selfish. I hope he realizes that he doesn't need the bright lights -- he IS the bright lights, and the center of the sports world follows him wherever he goes. I hope LeBron James appreciates that no city will ever love him like Cleveland.

And I hope LeBron James looks back at the sad, even pathetic, way that this season ended and wants to make it right. In the end, though, LeBron's decision is for another time, and whatever he does you can't blame a man for following his heart. What's left of the wreckage of this night is another Cleveland heartache, though not quite like any of the previous Cleveland heartaches. This heartache has no catchy name like The Drive or Red Right 88. This heartache is just about a team getting outworked and outplayed by an old team of Boston champions. This heartache is about a Cleveland team that quit the first chance it had. This heartache is about the last minute of the season, when the Cleveland Cavaliers decided there was no point in trying anymore.
And in its own strange way, this heartache was the bitterest one of them all.

tony hipchest
05-20-2010, 05:55 PM
what did you do to make this guy hate you?

Sports Illustrated's Ian Thomsen joined the show to talk about LeBron James and the Cavs falling to the Celtics and the superstar's future.

Dan and Thomsen agreed, whatever LeBron's next move is, he has to focus on joining a team that can win a title.

"If he doesn't win multiple championships, he's the biggest bust in NBA history," Thomsen said. "If he doesn't win championships, he's Charles Barkley multiplied."

But Thomsen said it's not clear what situation would be better for LeBron. "It's one thing to say I want out of Cleveland, but where is a better place? He's seen in Cleveland how hard it is to build something," Thomsen said.

Thomsen said the Cavs' early exit might have a big impact on LeBron's thinking. "I think they've shown that there isn't a lot there for him," Thomsen said.

Thomsen also talked about some of the other teams that have a shot. Thomsen talked about some of the usual suspects. He said watch out for the Dallas Mavericks, who might be a factor.

Thomsen said that the Cavs should get rid of coach Mike Brown and bring in Larry Brown.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/danpatrick/blog/110881/index.html#ixzz0obwmqlBa
Get a free NFL Team Jacket and Tee with SI Subscription

tony hipchest
05-20-2010, 08:06 PM
The Night the Cleveland Cavaliers Quit on Themselves

Read more: http://www.esquire.com/the-side/opinion/cavs-celtics-game-6-recap-051410#ixzz0ocTB59Bi

Nothing like the morning after for a Cleveland fan. Haven't had a drink since 1994 and yet the back of my head feels like it got whacked with a sap.

Shaq? Who knows how he feels. After the game he said all the right things — that he enjoyed his season with the Cavs, that he'd like to come back, and that he'd done everything they'd asked him to do. What else can he say? His contract ran out with the game clock last night, and while he'll likely land a roster spot somewhere — he can still man the low post with force and agility — he'll never sniff another long-term, big-money contract.

To his vast credit, the Dun Dada was one of very few Cavs to go down fighting against the Celtics. Most of the team — and this goes double for LeBron James — quit. They quit on their coach, quit on their fans, quit on each other, and quit on themselves. By the end of last night's game, they didn't even bother to pretend to care. Rather than risk a miracle, they stopped trying. They refused to foul and simply let the clock run out. Shaq by then was anchored to the bench with five fouls, his face utterly impassive.

Watching Cleveland teams lose isn't merely second nature to me; it's every bit as defining a part of my experience of life as breathing air or jerking off. But I honestly can't recall another case of a Cleveland team devoid of heart, guts, and soul under pressure. Give Boston credit, not only for playing a fine series but also for imposing their collective will on the Cavs. But nobody robbed the Cleveland Cavaliers of pride and courage except the Cleveland Cavaliers. They disgraced themselves, betrayed a city, and gave up.

By the way, I hereby rescind the offer to wager on LeBron's free agency. I'm pretty sure he's gone; if so, good riddance. And I'm also pretty sure that I won't live long enough to see another Cleveland team win a title; it's more likely that in five-to-ten years, the Browns will be the only major league team still playing in Cleveland. But I'll always have that ****** stub — clutched forever in my cold, dead hands.


:toofunny: :toofunny: :toofunny: hater.

tony hipchest
05-20-2010, 08:48 PM
i never knew michael wilbon was a hater. i guess mark jackson doesnt examine the evidence and just has beef with the "sycophants".

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/05/14/AR2010051400010.html

Wow. They weren't ready to win a championship, as it turns out, not the great LeBron James and not the Cleveland Cavaliers.

They played hard enough through most of the game, even cutting a 12-point deficit to four on James's daring back-to-back three-pointers. It looked then as if he had the stuff of Magic and Bird, of Jordan and Duncan.

But the outburst was brief, a sputter. This can't be about only LeBron James; an entire coaching staff and locker room full of players paid a lot of money let this happen. Mark Jackson, the ESPN analyst who played forever in this league, said at the end of the telecast of Game 6 that he was disappointed that the Cavaliers appeared to quit before it was over, simply surrender. They were, once again, dispirited in those final few minutes, defeated, overwhelmed.

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But it is largely about LeBron because the history and culture of the NBA have made it that the buck stops with the superstar, particularly when he is the reigning two-time league MVP and by general acclaim the best player in the game. I was confident LeBron would post a triple-double in Game 6, and he did -- 27, 19 and 10, or what we in the trade now call "almost Rondo numbers." But who knew nine turnovers would nearly make it a quadruple-double.

He fumbled the ball, stumbled, was hesitant and indecisive. Yeah, there were brilliant moments, such as after a fourth-quarter timeout when he powered through a Rasheed Wallace foul and tossed one in left-handed off the glass with spin.

Problem was, Cleveland needed a half-dozen of those plays and at least an entire half of the kind of determination we've seen out of James for years.

Then again, the regular season and the playoffs are different animals. The freewheeling, outside-in method that works for James and the Cavs from November through early April ain't the formula for success in May, when a bunch of skilled mashers like the Celtics decide there will be no wheeling and dealing, certainly nothing free.

James seemed lethargic, without his usual blast furnace of energy, as if after seven years he simply buckled under the weight of being the hometown icon. He seemed, again, overwhelmed, boxed in by the expectations, by the specter of free agency and his pending decision.

For months, James kept the whole free agency issue at arm's length. But lately, it seemed to be gaining on him; maybe it all caught up with him.

There was Jay-Z, part owner of the Nets, sitting at midcourt in Boston the other night, making goo-goo eyes at LeBron. There was John Calipari sitting courtside one night, rumors flying that he'd love to coach his former college star, Derrick Rose, and LeBron in Chicago.

....

LeBron and Cleveland appeared to be a match made in heaven, the best young athlete on the planet for the city in the greatest need of a superstar. He was a beast in the playoffs by the age of 21, had led the Cavaliers to the NBA Finals by 22, was the league MVP by 24. The craziest of the sycophants had him ahead of Michael Jordan at the same age, ahead of Kobe. This was going to end happily.

Of course, we live in a world now where these things are simply declared, as if wishing or hyping it can make it so. Leading the Cavaliers to an NBA championship might be the basketball equivalent of leading the Chicago Cubs to a World Series title. It, by necessity, is going to be difficult, carrying a team and a city through not only worthy opponents such as the Celtics and Magic and Lakers, but the years and decades of disappointment.

Cleveland Cavaliers quit with season on the line

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/en_fuego/2010/05/cleveland-cavaliers-quit-with-season-on-the-line.html

Inexcusable. Embarrassing. Incredible.

The Cleveland Cavaliers quit.Quit on themselves, quit on the city, quit on the potential for a prosperous future of the franchise.

As the final minutes ticked off in an elimination game against the Boston Celtics, they looked like a bunch of guys who just wanted to go home in a hurry, not even trying to foul to extend the game for a shot at a comeback. And it wasn’t an impossible deal, since the Celtics were missing a lot of free throws.

Their 94-85 loss to the Celtics in the Eastern Conference semifinals Thursday night is an indictment on everybody, starting with the coach, Mike Brown, who won’t be back next season. Bank on it.

Awful call to put Shaquille O’Neal on Kevin Garnett, who ate him up on the blocks because he was too quick for the Big Fella.

LeBron James had one of the most unspectacular triple-double in history, I think. His numbers looked great, but the nine turnovers are not what you expect from the best player on the planet. Isn’t he supposed to carry his team, to fight back when no one else will, to bring the best and deliver the KO punch to the opposing team?

Sorry LeBron didn’t do enough. Nine turnovers is perhaps his most significant stat line of the night. And most importantly, where was the emotion? Where was the fire?

The Cavs are now 0-4 when facing elimination on the road during LeBron James era.

That’s over, too.

“We’ll see what happens,” LeBron said, not exactly a confession of true love for Cleveland.

MACH1
05-20-2010, 09:22 PM
Top 11 Reasons Why the Cavs Quit in Game Six


With 2:06 left in Game Six, LeBron James dunked the basketball to close the lead to 7. The Cavs (a) didn't score again, (b) commit a defensive foul to try to stop the clock, (c) jump for rebounds, or (d) show any evidence that they wanted to be standing upright. Why did the team decide to only play 46 minutes?

11) Knew that they didn't stand a chance in one of the two games this year where Rasheed Wallace tried

10) Watched enough film of the 2009-10 Celtics to know that they never, ever had problems finishing games

9) LeBron's flight to New York, Chicago, New Jersey, Dallas, Denver and Los Angeles was leaving soon

8) Halfway through the fourth quarter, coach Mike Brown told them that he was coming back next year, no matter what

7) When two-fifths of the starting line up is Antwan Jamison and Shaquille O'Neal, you should not expect much in the way of stout behavior in an elimination game

6) Team was really only trying until James got his triple double

5) Team just wanted to be closer to JJ Hickson on the bench, who played for less than a minute in this game, despite being, unlike O'Neal and Zydrunas Ilgauskas, alive

4) Knew that the Celtics' 63.6% free-throw percentage in this game was just going to get better with more attempts

3) Really didn't want to hear any more of Boston Fan's devastatingly clever chants

2) Wanted to give sports blogosphere something, anything, to talk about other than LeBron's free agent status

1) As a final coup de grace for Cleveland Fan to make sure that he not only put his head in the oven, but also shot himself in the head while swallowing pills
http://fivetooltool.blogspot.com/2010/05/top-11-reasons-why-cavs-quit-in-game.html

:toofunny::toofunny::toofunny:

SteelersinCA
05-20-2010, 09:41 PM
They're all just irrational Guru hating braintrust members, all of them!!!

tony hipchest
05-20-2010, 10:52 PM
:laughing: damn mach... you beat me to it. FWIW i cant find a single 'lebron did not quit" article.

CavFanatic > Forums > Cleveland Cavaliers > Team Talk > We quit
http://www.cavfanatic.com/go/thread/view/3816/24044045/?pg=last

:chuckle:

and to stay true to the title of this thread, lebron is amazing.

Winning, loyalty or immortality?


http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=simmons/100514&sportCat=nba



And last night, LeBron's DNA finally made sense to me. Throw Jordan out. Throw Magic out, too, except for the "controls sections of a game with passing/rebounding" part. Keep Bo. Now, add this guy … Julius Erving.

I will explain.

Doc was one of the 20 best NBA players of all time. (In my book, I ranked him 16th.) Like LeBron, he did things on a basketball court that nobody had ever seen before. Like LeBron, he made the court shrink with a full head of steam. Like LeBron, his peers revered his talents. Like LeBron, he was articulate and thoughtful. Like LeBron, you watched him from afar and thought, "He seems like a good guy." Like LeBron, he was a small forward who rebounded bigger than his size (at least the first few years). Like LeBron, his durability was almost unparalleled. (Doc played in 1,277 of a possible 1,395 games, including seven seasons of 95-plus games). Like LeBron, women and children loved him. Like LeBron, he was extremely savvy about his image (and how to cultivate it). Like LeBron, he was an incredible, once-in-a-generation athlete. Like LeBron, his faulty outside shooting plagued him, so teams laid off him, packed the middle and prayed he would miss 20-footers. And, like LeBron, he was a nice guy.

(Hold that last thought for a second.)

Doc at age 26 (ABA, 1975-76 season, his fifth): 29.3 PPG, 11.0 RPG, 5.0 APG, 50.7% FG.

LeBron at age 25 (this year, his seventh season): 29.7 PPG, 7.3 RPG, 8.6 APG, 50.3% FG.

Doc in the '76 playoffs (13 games): 34.7 PPG, 12.6 RPG, 4.9 APG, 53.3% FG.

LeBron in the '10 playoffs (11 games): 29.1 PPG, 9.3 RPG, 7.6 APG, 50.2% FG.

The big difference: Doc captured two ABA titles (in '74 and '76). LeBron hasn't won anything. Of course, the ABA played right into Doc's wheelhouse: The league didn't have enough big guys, nobody played defense, a school-yard-type game carried the day, and the league was diluted enough that someone as gifted as Doc could run roughshod. When the ABA and NBA merged in the summer of 1976, Doc switched teams (to Philly) and the big question became, "When will Dr. J win an NBA title?"

Now here's where the parallels get interesting. Doc spent the next six seasons falling short as everyone picked him apart. Stuff like, "He's not the same guy that he was in the ABA," "He's too nice, he doesn't have a killer instinct" and "His teammates are letting him down." The '77 Sixers (a selfish team of freelancers) memorably self-combusted in the Finals against Bill Walton's methodical Blazers. When the '78 Bullets shocked Philly in six, not only did Washington's Bobby Dandridge outplay Doc in the series but everyone started calling David Thompson (rather than Doc) the NBA's best ABA import. The '79 Spurs knocked Philly out again, with San Antonio's Larry Kenon playing Doc to a draw. (That March, Sports Illustrated ran a feature called "Hey, What's Up With the Doc?" and wondered whether his best years were behind him.) Once Philly quietly started building a team of unselfish guys around him (Caldwell Jones, Bobby Jones, Mo Cheeks) and found him a second scorer (Andrew Toney), Doc's fortunes changed: Finals appearances in 1980 and 1982, as well as a (dubious, but still) MVP award in 1981. But only when Philly acquired Moses Malone, a true alpha dog and the league's best player at the time, did Doc finally get an NBA ring (in 1983).

Let's go back to those first three Philly seasons: Doc was stuck playing with guys such as George McGinnis (the ultimate ball stopper, owner of the all-time turnover record), World B. Free (gunner), Darryl Dawkins (great athlete, low basketball IQ), Jellybean Bryant (Kobe's dad -- I don't need to say any more) and Doug Collins (another guy who needed shots). He deferred to them way too much. For the '76 Nets, Doc averaged 22.7 shots per game. From '77 through '79: 16.7, 16.4, 18.7. Do you realize what a joke that was? Unfortunately, he was too nice of a guy. Doc allowed everyone else to determine his destiny. When he tried to take over … it never felt right. He was always one of those flow-of-the-game stars. Always. The same quality that made him a wonderful teammate also made him a liability if things were falling apart.

(Sound familiar?)

Doc's Philly teams kept self-combusting at the worst possible times. The '77 Sixers took a 2-0 lead in the Finals, then blew four straight. They lost do-or-die playoff games by two points (1978) and three points (1979). In 1980, everyone remembers Magic (only a rookie) playing five positions, notching a 42-15-7 and improbably winning Los Angeles the title; nobody ever wonders why Philly, playing at home against a team missing the 1980 MVP (Kareem), laid such an unforgivable egg. In 1981, the Sixers blew a 3-1 series lead to Boston in the Eastern Conference finals, losing the last three games by five points total. (And by the way, they led in the final minute of all three games.) By the time Philly blew the 1982 Finals, the consensus on Doc was this: phenomenal player, loved by all, an ambassador for the game, one of the best ever … doesn't quite have it.

Then Moses showed up, Philly finally won a title, and people everywhere forgot they had felt that way.

Back to LeBron: I think we know what we have. He's Doc 2.0 with a little Magic and a healthy dose of Bo sprinkled in. That means the following …

1. LeBron can win an NBA title (or titles) as the best player on a really good team with another leader in place (whether it's a great coach or another player).

2. If LeBron switches teams to a similar situation to the one he had in Cleveland these past two years (basically, LeBron and the LeBronettes), that won't translate to titles. (FYI: He finished seven wins short last spring and 10 wins short this spring. Not even close.) Staying in Cleveland, hiring John Calipari and sign-and-trading Jamison and Hickson to Toronto for Chris Bosh … that won't solve the problem here. Neither will jumping to the Knicks/Clippers/Mavericks.

3. If he cares about winning titles (multiple) and reaching his full potential as a player, he has only one move: the Chicago Bulls. That's always been the play. If you've been listening to my podcast or reading this column, you know that I've been touting this possibility since the winter, and here's why: Deep down, I think LeBron (and, just as important, the people around him) realizes that he needs one more kick-ass player to make his life easier. That means Miami or Chicago. And really, I can't imagine him signing with Miami because Dwyane Wade is almost too good. LeBron wants help, but he doesn't want to be perceived as riding someone else's coattails, either. Wade might be the best player alive for all we know -- he certainly was in 2006, and he's been banged-up and trapped on bad teams ever since.

No, Chicago makes more sense. Derrick Rose and Joakim Noah proved they were warriors these past two springs. They could be LeBron's Pippen/Grant or McHale/DJ. Easily. Rose could take the creative load off LeBron on nights when he doesn't have it. Rose could come through a few times in the clutch. Rose could hide some of LeBron's faults. It's the single smartest basketball move for LeBron James. It's the Michael Corleone move.

Of course, it doesn't have the same upside as New York: Biggest market, great fans, most meaning. If LeBron saved professional basketball in New York and brought Knicks fans their first title since 1973? That's the best available accomplishment in team sports right now. Name me a better one. You can't. Biggest star, biggest city. But it wouldn't be a smart basketball move. He could bring only one good free agent with him, and from what we've seen, would LeBron + (Chris Bosh, Carlos Boozer, Joe Johnson or Amar'e Stoudemire) combined with what the Knicks already have (not much) translate to anything more than what just happened in Cleveland? Please. That's the Sonny Corleone move.

The other realistic option: Just stay in Cleveland. Finish what you started. That's the second-best available accomplishment in team sports right now: Be like Tim Duncan. Be the guy who didn't flee for greener pastures. Be the guy who stayed when almost everyone else would have left. Be the hometown kid who saved Cleveland sports, brought home the first title since 1964 and single-handedly removed the fatalistic malaise that hangs over the city. Be the guy who proved loyalty matters more than anything else. That's the Connie Corleone move. Remember when she finally forgave Michael for killing Carlo and became the matriarch of the family? Exactly. Family trumped logic.

(And yes, if you're scoring at home, the Clippers would be the Fredo Corleone move.)

It's one of the greatest sports decisions I can remember: LeBron can choose winning (Chicago), loyalty (Cleveland) or a chance at immortality (New York). We have one answer -- Doc 2.0 with some Magic and Bo sprinkled in -- and now, we're waiting on the other. Within the next six weeks, we will find out precisely what matters to LeBron James. Just know that, wherever he lands, he's going to need a little more help than we thought.

Final point: Between Games 5 and 6 of the Cavs-Celtics series, an Austin, Texas, reader named Chris Rider sent me the following e-mail:

"I figured LeBron out, dude. I think you define a player by defining what is most important to them in one word.

"MJ -- Winning. Hands down, all he wanted to do was win. And that's over-used for a lot of athletes, but not him.

"Kobe -- Greatness. Yes he's going to win some, but only because he wants to be considered great and that will be a by-product at times. But you'd also see him shoot his team out of a game; jack 3s when he should press the issue and get to the paint. He didn't mind losing a few games if people came away saying 'Kobe is great; look what happens when he doesn't shoot.'"

"LeBron -- Amaze. I think he just really wants to amaze people. Which is why he spends 10 minutes before the game throwing underhand, left-hand half-court shots. Why he celebrates amazing dunks and blocks, but isn't working just as hard to win. I know the Cavs aren't great without him, but he's got PLENTY on that team to win rings with."

Is that totally fair? Probably not. But just for fun, let's extend Chris' game …

Russell, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Walton, West and Havlicek: Winning.

Wilt: Numbers.

Oscar and Barry: Perfection.

Shaq: Fame.

Kareem and Elgin: Pride.

Moses: Rebounds.

Malone and Garnett: Work.

Barkley: Fun.

Cousy, Stockton, Isiah, Pippen and Nash: Team.

For Doc and LeBron, you probably need more than one word. By the rules of the game, we can use only one. So we're forced to pick this one: Amaze. You are who you are.

Wallace108
05-21-2010, 12:40 AM
I really like the LeBron and Doc comparison.

And at the risk of sounding redundant ...
If I ignore the media hype, when I watch LeBron play, this is what I see:

tyUf-9ruJi8

revefsreleets
05-21-2010, 07:31 AM
Wow.

What a lack of reading comprehension from "The Obsessed One". But this illustrates my point, as you are clearly so bitter and spiteful that your anger caused you to fail to comprehend the very simple statement that I made. I'll type it more slowly for you and give you another chance:

I said LEBRON DID NOT QUIT. The Cavs as a team clearly did, but not LBJ. Quitters don't snag 19 boards in a game.

I do like the Dr. J comparison, though...bear in mind that he was one of the first people to hold a team ransom for salary through threats and coercion (ala Kobe), and LBJ hasn't taken that road yet.

LOL at the braintrust members piling on. Laughable.

fansince'76
05-21-2010, 10:40 AM
Since the petty bickering and name calling still hasn't stopped, thread closed.