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Leftoverhard
04-30-2010, 08:13 PM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/

Teachers that aren’t up to par “may take classes or other steps to improve their English,” and if they still aren’t fluent enough for the state, they will be fired or reassigned.

Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

GBMelBlount
04-30-2010, 08:22 PM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/



Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

It is Interesting that you take issue with who decides what "par" is in this situation.......

When the federal government makes decisions to seize what belongs to one group and give it to another to whom it does not even belong, I have not once seen you question the decision making....... :tap:

Why?

Do you feel our government is somehow more ethical and honest and less subjective when it comes to wealth redistribution than those who would decide what is "par" in this situation?

Vincent
04-30-2010, 08:47 PM
Who decides what "par" is?

One would hope the Board of Education. Certainly not other teachers.

Leftoverhard
04-30-2010, 08:56 PM
It is Interesting that you take issue with who decides what "par" is in this situation.......

When the federal government makes decisions to seize what belongs to one group and give it to another to whom it does not even belong, I have not once seen you question the decision making....... :tap:

Why?

Do you feel our government is somehow more ethical and honest and less subjective when it comes to wealth redistribution than those who would decide what is "par" in this situation?

Hmm. Comparing this with taxes is what's interesting. Scratch that - it's confusing - I cannot make a link with the two. All I can think of is that you're deflecting because you know i'm right. :chuckle:

"Speak what we decide is par for proper American English or we will fire you on behalf of the government"

How will the panel on proper English decide? Will it be with key words like "nucular" or "ya'll?"

revefsreleets
04-30-2010, 09:01 PM
Damn them! How DARE they actually ask teachers to be able to properly speak English! Especially since this is about teachers who are teaching the LEAST fluent students. I guess leftover thinks we should let the least fluent teachers teach the least fluent students?

Actually, to tell the truth, I have NO idea what LOH is talking about most of the time anymore...but I have a guess. Nanny state? Anyone?

Vincent
04-30-2010, 09:07 PM
Hmm. Comparing this with taxes is what's interesting. Scratch that - it's confusing - I cannot make a link with the two.

Its a perfectly linear analogy, although it isn't surprising that you can't make the linkage.

How will the panel on proper English decide? Will it be with key words like "nucular" or "ya'll?"

Using those would probably raise a flag or two, yes.

Why do you find it objectionable that teachers have a suitable command of English? They are, after all, teaching. And why is Arizona such a concern? Do you live there?

GBMelBlount
04-30-2010, 09:25 PM
"Speak what we decide is par for proper American English or we will fire you on behalf of the government"



Give us what belongs to you so that we can give it to others to whom it doesn't belong or we will put you in jail on behalf of the government. :noidea:

...while we line our own pockets and buy votes.....

your right Leftover....no comparison..... :chuckle:

SteelersinCA
04-30-2010, 09:45 PM
Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

I'd imagine the people who DECIDE what an accredited teacher is. I would think one would be perfectly happy to require fluency in English as a requirement for teaching but I guess you disagree?

tony hipchest
04-30-2010, 09:56 PM
does this mean spainglish is out?

chingow!

Vincent
04-30-2010, 10:04 PM
http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

I freekin love the left and their staged pictures. "Stop Hate" Oh, boo-hoo. :rofl: :sofunny: :toofunny: "They are being 'mean' to us". "Mean people suck". And my absolute favorite - "Its not fair".

Composing self. Trying to be serious. Bonnie Fwank face. "Dis is simpwy wepwehensiboo!!!"

Yinz use that word "hate" a lot. What does it mean?

Godfather
04-30-2010, 10:17 PM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/



Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

Who decides whether my health insurance is "good enough?"...your Messiah thinks the answer is the IRS.

BTW, not all Hispanics are brown. There are plenty of blond-haired, blue-eyed Mexicans.

Vincent
04-30-2010, 10:36 PM
BTW, not all Hispanics are brown. There are plenty of blond-haired, blue-eyed Mexicans.

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/SportSyndicate/Ines_Sainz.jpg

Ines Sainz of Mexican TV Azteca comes to mind, although she is actually Spanish. Damn, Ines would slip right through the dragnet!

SteelersinCA
04-30-2010, 10:42 PM
http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/SportSyndicate/Ines_Sainz.jpg

Damn, Ines would slip right through the dragnet!

That's OK, I'll catch her in mine!!!!

MACH1
04-30-2010, 10:50 PM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/



Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

Last time I checked ILLEGAL wasn't a color or a race.

:binky:

smokin3000gt
04-30-2010, 10:59 PM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/



Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

:doh:

urgle burgle
04-30-2010, 11:03 PM
yes, it is actually quite despicable to require teachers, who teach our youth, to have a handle on the English language. especially since AZ sinks a TON of money into trying to teach English to Spanish speaking students. i would have to say i am completely lost on why this is an issue. i must shake my head now in disbelief.

X-Terminator
04-30-2010, 11:05 PM
Sorry, but I don't see a problem here. Why the hell do we have teachers teaching kids in another language other than English or teachers who can barely speak English themselves? Like it or not, English is the language you have to learn here if you really want to get ahead. Period. Supporting teaching foreign kids only in their native language or if the teacher can't speak the language fluently is doing them a major disservice and are only holding them back.

Who decides whether my health insurance is "good enough?"...your Messiah thinks the answer is the IRS.

And if you don't comply, you are subject to hefty fines and penalties, courtesy of the government. Yet Lefty apparently doesn't see a problem with that.

Leftoverhard
05-01-2010, 01:35 AM
Uh - surprise, it looks like the usual suspects didn't even read the link - No one said anything about wanting unqualified teachers. This is about teachers having ACCENTS that aren't acceptable (to someone's standards). If these AZ schools are hiring unqualified teachers, that is an entirely different problem. Obviously, these teachers aren't illegal immigrants who got jobs teaching - these are American citizens whose native language is SPANISH with a residual accent that bothers someone a whole lot. It's not about someone's command of the English language - it's about their accent.

I should have included a warning:
Read the article before climbing onto your horse.

tony hipchest
05-01-2010, 01:46 AM
BTW, not all Hispanics are brown. There are plenty of blond-haired, blue-eyed Mexicans.like leftoverhard, i live in new mexico. now i cant speak for him, but if he is from anywhere near santa fe, i am sure he is well aware of this.

white anglo ethnocentrism has many believing that the first american city is "plymouth rock" or some bs where we broke bread with the indians and they taught us to plant corn.

you always hear about charleston or st. augustine, but the spanish settlements in santa fe are an afterthought.

you really get into a grey area when you start classifying people as spanish, mexican, mestizo, latino, hispanic, etc.

i ask you this, since you are closer to the region... do cubans prefer to be labeled as hispanic, or latino? for instance, a puerto rican may be offended if you call them latino... or vice versa. :noidea:

its almost as backwards as calling any white person living in africa "afro-american".

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b212/SportSyndicate/Ines_Sainz.jpg

Ines Sainz of Mexican TV Azteca comes to mind, although she is actually Spanish. Damn, Ines would slip right through the dragnet!not only would she slip through a dragnet, it is possible if anyone called her dad or brothers a "mexican" they might get punched.

whats funny is there are multi-generational people here with dark skin who speak spanish, that never set foot in old mexico who are ragarded by all as "mexican".

yet there are also 1st and 2nd generation, whose fathers or grandfathers were german scientists working on the manhattan project, who are regarded as your typical white american. :tap:

the so called immigrants never immigrated, and the actual immigrants get a free pass. :noidea:

really... if speaking proper english was really a main priority of the "united states" we would have-

a) only conquered english speaking lands and people
b) exterminated all those who didnt speak the "native" tongue.
c) federally funded all those expected to promptly and properly assimilate and be taught the language in the correct fashion.

MattsMe
05-01-2010, 02:09 AM
I took two years of spanish in high school. The first year, we had a white guy teaching the class. He had lived in mexico for several years, teaching english there. Everything was fine, and we learned a lot.

The next year, we had a mexican/hispanic/latino whatever woman. Nice lady, but her spanish accent was so thick that it was extremely difficult to understand her when she tried to explain something in english. Many times she would have to repeat things two and three times before anyone could make out what she was saying. None of us learned anything that year, and several of us complained to administration about it. She was gone the next year.

Do I feel bad for her? Sure. But we couldn't freaking understand her!

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

JackHammer
05-01-2010, 02:22 AM
I took two years of spanish in high school. The first year, we had a white guy teaching the class. He had lived in mexico for several years, teaching english there. Everything was fine, and we learned a lot.

The next year, we had a mexican/hispanic/latino whatever woman. Nice lady, but her spanish accent was so thick that it was extremely difficult to understand her when she tried to explain something in english. Many times she would have to repeat things two and three times before anyone could make out what she was saying. None of us learned anything that year, and several of us complained to administration about it. She was gone the next year.

Do I feel bad for her? Sure. But we couldn't freaking understand her!

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

Well you're obviously obviously a racist for fabricating such an awesome story :chuckle:

Borski
05-01-2010, 03:32 AM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/



Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg
From what I understand I can't disagree with this, I had a teacher from India or similar region in one of my college classes, and I couldn't understand a word of his lectures the first three classes, I then dropped the class because I wasn't going to be able to learn anything if I couldn't understand it.

smokin3000gt
05-01-2010, 07:33 AM
Uh - surprise, it looks like the usual suspects didn't even read the link - No one said anything about wanting unqualified teachers. This is about teachers having ACCENTS that aren't acceptable (to someone's standards). If these AZ schools are hiring unqualified teachers, that is an entirely different problem. Obviously, these teachers aren't illegal immigrants who got jobs teaching - these are American citizens whose native language is SPANISH with a residual accent that bothers someone a whole lot. It's not about someone's command of the English language - it's about their accent.

I should have included a warning:
Read the article before climbing onto your horse.

They have a good point (hard)leftover. How is it you take issue of someone deciding who speaks English well enough to teach but absolutely zero issue with group of people making our HC decisions for us? One affects many more people nationwide versus one state and a handful of people that will even have to deal with anything related to this. Was it the crying lady that did ya in?

Vincent
05-01-2010, 09:26 AM
Uh - surprise, it looks like the usual suspects didn't even read the link - No one said anything about wanting unqualified teachers. This is about teachers having ACCENTS that aren't acceptable (to someone's standards). If these AZ schools are hiring unqualified teachers, that is an entirely different problem. Obviously, these teachers aren't illegal immigrants who got jobs teaching - these are American citizens whose native language is SPANISH with a residual accent that bothers someone a whole lot. It's not about someone's command of the English language - it's about their accent.

I should have included a warning:
Read the article before climbing onto your horse.

I read it. That's why all the laughing and pointing and smirking. If I hadn't read it I would have just laughed at the sniveling pic and moved along.

Again Lefty, do you live in Arizona?

SteelCityMom
05-01-2010, 12:41 PM
I don't think it's wrong to require a teacher in the US to be able to speak fluent English...especially if the class they are teaching has nothing to do with a foreign language. I don't think what they mean is that anyone with an accent isn't going to get a job or is going to be fired.

What I'm surprised hasn't been mentioned yet is the HB2211 bill in Arizona that has targeted ethnic studies programs.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iaScqI8xCVtMM2fP8bUpEYIqajLAD9FDNGV00

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy/2010/04/30/arizona-to-ban-cesar-chavez-and-mexican-american-studies-in-schools/

GBMelBlount
05-01-2010, 12:48 PM
Horne said he believes the district's Mexican-American studies program teaches Latino students that they are oppressed by white people. Public schools should not be encouraging students to resent a particular race, he said.

If this is the case, it would not surprise me.

Has teaching "groupism" become an integral part of the public educational system?

Create as many SEPARATE groups of people as possible and convince them that the cause of their situation is not their fault but the fault of others taking advantage and exploiting them.....as though they are helpless....

Promise to give them special rights, at the expense of others, punish the successful by taking their belongings and redistributing it (while the politicians line their own pockets), and voila, the votes come flying in and the majority of people feel that justice is being done.

The irony.

Nice racket.

SteelCityMom
05-01-2010, 01:19 PM
If this is the case, it would not surprise me.

Has teaching "groupism" become an integral part of the public educational system?

Create as many SEPARATE groups of people as possible and convince them that the cause of their situation is not their fault but the fault of others taking advantage and exploiting them.....as though they are helpless....

Promise to give them special rights, at the expense of others, punish the successful by taking their belongings and redistributing it (while the politicians line their own pockets), and voila, the votes come flying in and the majority of people feel that justice is being done.

The irony.

Nice racket.

That's not the part of it that worries me, and I of course agree that nobody should be taught that they are being repressed (unless of course, they are actually being repressed lol). The part that worries me is this...

The measure targets an ethnic studies program from a Tucson school district. It would prohibit classes that advocate ethnic solidarity, that are designed primarily for students of a particular race OR that promote resentment toward a certain ethnic group.

It's not specifying just one reason for this bill. Imagine the backlash if electives courses that focused on a particular religion (say, Christianity or Catholicism) were banned by certain schools because they are deemed to advocate religious and/or ethnic solidarity.

GBMelBlount
05-01-2010, 01:27 PM
That's not the part of it that worries me, and I of course agree that nobody should be taught that they are being repressed (unless of course, they are actually being repressed lol). The part that worries me is this...

It's not specifying just one reason for this bill. Imagine the backlash if electives courses that focused on a particular religion (say, Christianity or Catholicism) were banned by certain schools because they are deemed to advocate religious and/or ethnic solidarity.

I had actually thought about that as well Mom.....

My daughter was at the Carnegie Science Center yesterday and they had an exhibit of Darwin. There was a bible there and when you put your hand over the bible, it simply told you why the bible was wrong, based on Darwin's view.....I guess that it is OK, it's about Darwin....but if it's educational, perhaps it could have involved a response that was more two sided, educational, thought provoking and put things in a larger context or perspective...but it didn't....

Unfortunately, I feel our educational system may be focusing more on teaching our kids WHAT to think and not HOW to think...

urgle burgle
05-01-2010, 02:34 PM
i read the article. i still fail to understand the issue of complaint.
the only issue may be the ethnic study part. howeve, it is odd we/they need to have a bill with the first part of no classes that teach the overthrow of the govt. i find that a bit disconcerting.

Preacher
05-01-2010, 04:30 PM
It's not specifying just one reason for this bill. Imagine the backlash if electives courses that focused on a particular religion (say, Christianity or Catholicism) were banned by certain schools because they are deemed to advocate religious and/or ethnic solidarity.

From my reading of that sentence, it is not saying that you can't focus on a particular race.

Its that you can't DESIGN the class FOR that race.

In other words. Going back to your religion argument... I can still teach a class on Protestant Christianity... I just can't DESIGN the class FOR protestant Christians to the exclusion of anyone else.

I think that is quite appropriate and fair in a college system.

SteelCityMom
05-01-2010, 04:49 PM
From my reading of that sentence, it is not saying that you can't focus on a particular race.

Its that you can't DESIGN the class FOR that race.

In other words. Going back to your religion argument... I can still teach a class on Protestant Christianity... I just can't DESIGN the class FOR protestant Christians to the exclusion of anyone else.

I think that is quite appropriate and fair in a college system.

These are high school electives they are talking about. That means nobody can be excluded from taking them. Were I still in high school I could sign up for it and take it just as easily as anyone of Mexican/hispanic heritage could. Nearly every elective course, whether it be in high school or college, is designed to cater to a specific desire.

If you want to learn how to be a suzy-homemaker, you'd sign up for a home-ec course. If you want to learn how to weld, you sign up for shop. If you want to learn about black history specifically, you sign up for a black history class. If you want to learn more about Christianity, you sign up for an elective that caters to it. If you want to learn more about Mexican/hispanic heritage, you sign up for an elective that caters to that, just like you would anything else.

I don't think it's appropriate at all to target these classes. I'd understand if they wanted to do away with a Mexican Heritage class in say, Fargo Minnesota where I'm guessing the demand on that class would be low...this is Tuscon Arizona though. I'm sure there are enough students signing up for these classes to justify keeping them around.

Venom
05-03-2010, 07:14 AM
How much longer until you hear this when you call up a company , " press 1 for Spanish , 2 for English "

urgle burgle
05-06-2010, 06:34 PM
dec, 21, 2012

Steeldude
05-11-2010, 10:04 AM
Arizona - WTF? The worst is clearly yet to come. Arizona won't stop until it has trampled on every brown person in it's path. This is f-ed up. No one should have to go through that. I'm hard-pressed to believe that people really think this crap is ok. You should question yourself if you do.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/04/30/arizona-teachers/



Who decides what "par" is?

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/AP100419039894.jpg

brown people? it says nothing about race or skin color and teaching english. i take it you are a liberal? where do you get trampling on brown people from?

white russians with think accents can't teach english there either. i think it's a great move by arizona. :thumbsup:

arizona is really doing a great job. i hope other states, mainly california, follow immediately in their footsteps.

Steeldude
05-11-2010, 10:06 AM
How much longer until you hear this when you call up a company , " press 1 for Spanish , 2 for English "

that already happens.

hopefully someday the US will make english the official language.

Leftoverhard
05-11-2010, 11:06 AM
i take it you are a liberal?

I take it you're white. I also take it you've never been suspected of a crime based on the color of your skin. Good times.

smokin3000gt
05-11-2010, 11:22 AM
brown people? it says nothing about race or skin color and teaching english. i take it you are a liberal? where do you get trampling on brown people from?

white russians with think accents can't teach english there either. i think it's a great move by arizona. :thumbsup:

arizona is really doing a great job. i hope other states, mainly california, follow immediately in their footsteps.

If it was up to hard leftover, the world would be governed based on the hurt feeling index (HFI).

Steeldude
05-11-2010, 11:29 AM
I take it you're white. I also take it you've never been suspected of a crime based on the color of your skin. Good times.

yes i am white, but what does that have to do with this law? it's says nothing about race at all. white russians can be illegal aliens too. why so fixated on skin color and race?

i take it you are a liberal? you didn't answer. i answered your question even though i asked first.

where does it say you are a suspect of a crime based on skin color? where do you get trampling on brown people from? skin color has nothing to do with being an illegal alien.

revefsreleets
05-11-2010, 11:34 AM
I love liberals. They tell us how to think, and what is right and wrong, and make sure we know when we are wrong.

My favorite "liberal logic"?

"Words hurt, and you need to be sensitive. What? You disagree with me? You stupid, ignorant, backwards ass effing a-hole! How DARE you contradict me?"

Venom
05-11-2010, 02:21 PM
Your right Blount - give the people special rights from a country they have no right to be in. God Bless America .

MACH1
05-11-2010, 02:26 PM
why so fixated on skin color and race?

That's what racists do best.

Venom
05-11-2010, 02:37 PM
Usually the people who are screaming racism are the racists

Steeldude
05-12-2010, 01:33 AM
That's what racists do best.

judging by leftover's refusal to explain himself, i think you are right.

SteelerEmpire
05-12-2010, 09:44 AM
There are some good points made here... LINK: http://abcnews.go.com/Entertainment/video/the-view-discusses-immigration-reform-10614992

Leftoverhard
05-12-2010, 10:03 AM
judging by leftover's refusal to explain himself, i think you are right.

What do you want me to explain? This issue doesn't affect you. You can't even comprehend it. You will spout canned Rush Limbaugh answers about white Russians all day and then you project your BS on me. It's boring.

And Mach1 - I'm hurt - and no cute little pic to go along with it.

revefsreleets
05-12-2010, 12:05 PM
I have to admit, Lefty, that half the time I can't understand for the life of me what you're talking about. NOT out of some lack of ability to comprehend the "logic" of it, rather it simply often makes no logical sense at all.

I mean, you're often outraged by some thing or other, but there's really nothing behind it, often you don't even have a position other than to take a contrarian view of what others post. It's just all sort of vague like the picture in your first post: A woman crying with a sign that says "Stop Hate".

Ummmmmmm.....okay.....

SCSTILLER
05-12-2010, 12:18 PM
What do you want me to explain? This issue doesn't affect you. You can't even comprehend it. You will spout canned Rush Limbaugh answers about white Russians all day and then you project your BS on me. It's boring.

And Mach1 - I'm hurt - and no cute little pic to go along with it.

Where do you fall in the HFI?

Indo
05-12-2010, 12:28 PM
A question, Lefty:

Where I work (I am a physician) there a fairly large number of non-Americans---there is a Cardiologist from Pakistan; another from Turkey; there are a fair number of docs from India; three are Arabic (one from Jordan, two from Saudi Arabia); there are two Koreans and one chinese doc...

My point being, there are a large number of docs at this hospital that are all foreign-born. ALL of them have the accents that accompany a person who is speaking a language other than his/her native language.

So I have many patients that I have to refer to these docs for various reasons.
More than " a few" of them have said to me, " Please don't refer me to Doctor X because I can't understand him. I would rather go to Doctor Y".

In your estimation, are these people being Racist?

If "Yes", why do you think so? They want a physician that they can understand when discussing a matter as important as their health.

If "No" is your answer, then please explain how this differs from the situation with the teachers?---people want to learn English (and other subjects) from people that can teach those subjects without an accent---so that they can comprehend/understand something so important as their Education.

Please stop playing the Race Card. You seem to make EVERYTHING about Race. And it isn't.

MACH1
05-12-2010, 01:19 PM
And Mach1 - I'm hurt - and no cute little pic to go along with it.

Truth hurts doesn't it!

Steeldude
05-13-2010, 07:20 AM
What do you want me to explain?


I take it you're white. I also take it you've never been suspected of a crime based on the color of your skin. Good times.

yes i am white, but what does that have to do with this law? it's says nothing about race at all. white russians can be illegal aliens too. why so fixated on skin color and race?

i take it you are a liberal? you didn't answer. i answered your question even though i asked first.

where does it say you are a suspect of a crime based on skin color? where do you get trampling on brown people from? skin color has nothing to do with being an illegal alien.