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MasterOfPuppets
08-27-2010, 11:32 PM
this is just from a blogger, but its very well thought out...


There were far more negatives than positives from the Steelers’ offensive line in last night’s 24-17 preseason win over the New York Giants. After just one viewing, I was pleasantly surprised and very pleased with the performance of embattled reserve tackle Tony Hills, who most believed before this game was a long-shot to make the team’s roster.

I am sure J.J. will provide more detailed and expert videotape analysis of the entire offensive line later in the week and he has already done so for two other tackles.

Without breaking down the game tape yet, I am almost ready to make what seemed like a far-fetched prediction just a couple of weeks ago. Tony Hills will make this team and veteran starting center Justin Hartwig may end up on the waiver wire as a result.

Mammoth 35-year-old Flozell Adams was wisely signed by the Steelers before training camp, after Willie Colon – the team’s best player on an already-subpar NFL offensive line – was lost for the year with an Achilles injury.

But Adams, who played left tackle for the vast majority of his lengthy career with the Cowboys, has looked poor in two preseason games while having to learn a new scheme, play with new teammates, and, more importantly, learn how to play right tackle.

Veteran journeyman Jonathan Scott has probably looked better than Adams in the two preseason games, but is not a serviceable NFL starting tackle, as shown in this analysis that broke down Scott’s play with the hapless Bills last season.

Right now, Pittsburgh’s best starting tackle duo by midseason may be Hills at left tackle, with veteran starter Max Starks moving over to the right side, where he has significant starting experience and already selflessly volunteered to make such a move for the benefit of the team after Colon’s injury.

Another option would be to let Adams play his natural left tackle position, with Starks again moving over to right tackle. In contrast to Hills and Adams, Scott is more suitable and far more comfortable at right tackle than the left side, so Starks could stay put if Scott ends up the starter.

None of these look like very appealing options, although the athletic and younger Hills provides the most upside.

Now in his fourth season after being a developmental fourth-round pick from the University of Texas, Hills has been nothing more than a poor practice player who has never seen game action during his three years in Pittsburgh.

However, he may now be finally maturing into a serviceable run and pass blocker if the first two preseason games this fall are any indication.

Reports out of training camp had Adams, Scott and especially Hills all playing poor at tackle. Part of that, however, must be attributed to the opposition they have faced. There is not another 3-4 defensive scheme in the NFL that has a better three-man rotation at defensive end than the Steelers’ trio of Aaron Smith, Brett Keisel, and last year’s first-round pick, Ziggy Hood.

After those three are a trio of serviceable NFL 3-4 defensive ends (veteran Nick Eason, second-year-man Sunny Harris and rookie Doug Worthington) battling every day in camp for 1-2 roster spots.

It only gets tougher against Pittsburgh superstar starting linebackers James Harrison and LaMarr Woodley, who are easily the best outside pass-rushing tandem in the NFL, as the duo has combined for a league-high 51 sacks in their two seasons together as starters.

In reserve, the Steelers have two of their first four picks in the 2010 NFL draft in Jason Worilds and Thad Gibson, with Gibson being one of the standouts in the Steelers’ training camp and preseason thus far. And we all know that Kevin Colbert values having great reserve linebackers far more than offensive tackles, evident by his drafting strategy over the past decade.

Therefore, all of the reports of Hills’ poor play may have been due somewhat to the opposition. With such uncertainty at tackle for the Steelers, I think Adams, Scott and Hills should all make the team. Adams is still the most experienced of the three, although his $2.5 non-guaranteed salary for this fall makes him likely to be cut if he is not the opening-day starter. Odds remain greatest, though, that he will start the first game.

Scott is a serviceable reserve, while Hills has the most potential of the three and may be the Steelers’ best option at left tackle if Starks went down with an injury.

The problem is that the Steelers do not seem to have roster spots for all three. Pittsburgh should not cut a more talented, younger defensive player just to keep 10 offensive linemen. Nine is the number of offensive linemen who should and will likely be kept on the 53-man roster this fall.

Chris Kemoeatu is the starting left guard, rookie first-round draft pick Maurkice Pouncey appears likely to replace veteran Justin Hartwig as the starting center, probably on opening day, and the Steelers’ staff seemingly desires to keep Trai Essex as their starting right guard for a second consecutive season.

Essex, who has experience playing every offensive line spot in regular-season games but center, is another option at tackle. However, the Steelers’ staff seems reluctant to do such wholesale maneuvering.

Reserve Ramon Foster, who started three games last year at guard and saw lots of playing time as Pittsburgh’s sixth offensive lineman even though he was an undrafted rookie free agent from Tennessee, is also a roster lock.

So should be Doug Legursky, who was the Steelers’ No. 7 offensive lineman last year. The top Steelers beat writers, Ed Bouchette and Jim Wexell, have both predicted Pouncey will start at center on opening day. Both contended that Hartwig would still likely make the roster, but that was before Adams’ porous play and Hills’ strong performance on Saturday.

Hartwig has not played guard since his rookie season and he complained so much about that experience that the Panthers released him when he was no longer their starting center. In my view, Legursky is a far better option to be the reserve center/guard on game days (when the Steelers only dress seven offensive linemen) than Hartwig.

Legursky, also a natural center, is bigger, stronger and faster than Hartwig, and thus a more serviceable option at guard, where he has seen plenty of action in two preseason games.

Legursky’s versatility is aided by his potential as a short-yardage fullback. Finally, since the draft, no one ever expected Hartwig to be on the Steleers’ roster for 2011 and the reason he was not mentioned as a potential waiver casualty for this fall was because Pittsburgh initially planned to use Pouncey at right guard as a rookie. In contrast to Hartwig, the second-year Legursky is in Pittsburgh’s long-term plans.

The situation has obviously changed due to turmoil at tackle and the rapid development of Pouncey at center; and thus so should the Steelers’ plan.

I do not know who should start at right tackle and shutter at the thought of immobile Bryon Leftwich playing behind this Steelers’ line for the first four games. That seems like a recipe for a 1-3 record, which would likely end the team’s realistic postseason hopes before superstar quarterback Ben Roethlisberger returns from suspension.

However, I do believe the Steelers would be better served by having more options at tackle on its 53-man roster, and that would mean keeping Adams, Scott and Hills, while cutting Hartwig. If he is not going to be on the 45-man game-day roster and is one of three natural centers, why keep Hartwig at all?
http://www.steelerslounge.com/2010/08/steelers-cut-hartwig-hills-53man-roster/

SteelersinCA
08-27-2010, 11:34 PM
Why not trade him for something. I gotta think he'd be serviceable for someone.

MasterOfPuppets
08-27-2010, 11:50 PM
i agree SICA

this i certainly don't agree with...
However, I do believe the Steelers would be better served by having more options at tackle on its 53-man roster, and that would mean keeping Adams, Scott and Hills,

edit...i counted wrong.....but i'd still rather give urbik another year than keep scott or whoever doesn't get the starting RT job.

SteelersinCA
08-27-2010, 11:56 PM
What's the point of keeping a bunch of trash tackles? We could pick someone up that will do just as good if we need to.

xXTheSteelKingsXx
08-28-2010, 12:05 AM
Is Urbik practice squad eligible? I too would like to keep him around a bit longer but he hasn't really made a strong push up the depth chart. Maybe we could let him develope on PS for one more year because right now I feel more comfortable with Legursky and Foster above Urbik.

MasterOfPuppets
08-28-2010, 12:12 AM
What's the point of keeping a bunch of trash tackles? We could pick someone up that will do just as good if we need to.
agreed...essex has been the top backup tackle the last few years, so its not like they can't move him there if need be. hills is starting to get some props for his progress, and i think urbik is just a late bloomer as well. the guy was solid for 4 years at wisconsin, so its not like he can't play. i'd just hate to lose his potential just to keep a bum like scott or adams for 1 year. just like i'd hate to lose legursky or foster to keep hartwig for 1 more year.

MasterOfPuppets
08-28-2010, 12:20 AM
Is Urbik practice squad eligible? I too would like to keep him around a bit longer but he hasn't really made a strong push up the depth chart. Maybe we could let him develope on PS for one more year because right now I feel more comfortable with Legursky and Foster above Urbik.

well you don't just "stick" a guy on the practice squad. first you have to cut them. which you then have to pay them any bonus money or guarantee money, then you have to waite till they clear waivers. BUT the player can then shop himself around to other teams and other teams are aloud to come calling as well. remember when they cut sunny harris ? the steelers wanted to sign him to the PS , but he took an offer with carolina. the minimum for a PS player is $5000 a weak, but teams can offer more to get them to sign.

xXTheSteelKingsXx
08-28-2010, 12:49 AM
well you don't just "stick" a guy on the practice squad. first you have to cut them. which you then have to pay them any bonus money or guarantee money, then you have to waite till they clear waivers. BUT the player can then shop himself around to other teams and other teams are aloud to come calling as well. remember when they cut sunny harris ? the steelers wanted to sign him to the PS , but he took an offer with carolina. the minimum for a PS player is $5000 a weak, but teams can offer more to get them to sign.

Damnit. Why you gotta go and ruin my full proof plan with these silly facts and numbers. :chuckle:

Okay maybe I overlooked a few things so scrap the practice squad plan. So that probably makes Jon Scott the odd man out. An o-line of Starks, Kemo, Pouncey, Essex, Flozell, Hills, Urbik, Foster and Legursky would probably be the way to go.

MasterOfPuppets
08-28-2010, 12:53 AM
Damnit. Why you gotta go and ruin my full proof plan with these silly facts and numbers. :chuckle:

Okay maybe I overlooked a few things so scrap the practice squad plan. So that probably makes Jon Scott the odd man out. An o-line of Starks, Kemo, Pouncey, Essex, Flozell, Hills, Urbik, Foster and Legursky would probably be the way to go.
that's the way i'd go, assuming flozell out plays scott. and hills has another good showing the next 2 games.

SteelersinCA
08-28-2010, 01:01 AM
I still think Flozell could be a good player if he's willing to learn from the coaches.

MasterOfPuppets
08-28-2010, 01:03 AM
I still think Flozell could be a good player if he's willing to learn from the coaches.

he just looks slow and lazy to me... even the commentators ragged on his effort the first game when he gave up a sack.

pancake
08-28-2010, 02:18 AM
Why not trade him for something. I gotta think he'd be serviceable for someone.

Even if it is a 6th or 7th round pick, it would be worth it.

MasterOfPuppets
08-28-2010, 02:39 AM
Even if it is a 6th or 7th round pick, it would be worth it.
indeed...anything is better than nothing.

ricardisimo
08-28-2010, 02:49 AM
So who needs a center (and they better be outside of the division)?

I could swear someone was talking about how well Urbik was showing lately... Did I imagine that?

Aussie_steeler
08-28-2010, 03:23 AM
Hartwigs contract numbers, combined with his less than stellar play probably make him untradeable.

Most teams will know all that they have to do is sit and wait for him to be cut. Then they can sign him to a much lower contract ( vet min). But I am guessing that not many people will be wanting him.

Its a shame you cant trade with the CFL for a couple of cartons of beer.

ricardisimo
08-28-2010, 03:54 AM
Its a shame you cant trade with the CFL for a couple of cartons of beer.

You mean we can't? I thought we got Logan for some Levi's and a carton of Lucky Strikes? :noidea:

Tone's Toes
08-28-2010, 04:08 AM
If Sean Mahan can be traded, anyone can be traded.

pete74
08-28-2010, 05:02 AM
Flozell will start week 1 unless something seriously changes sunday but i would perfer to give Hills a shot. he has played very well this preseason and he has alot of upside. i want to see him with the starters to see what he can do

pete74
08-28-2010, 05:04 AM
So who needs a center (and they better be outside of the division)?

I could swear someone was talking about how well Urbik was showing lately... Did I imagine that?

i wouldnt mind trading him inside our division. he would be a step backwards for both the bengals and ravens

MasterOfPuppets
08-29-2010, 05:01 AM
Hartwigs contract numbers, combined with his less than stellar play probably make him untradeable.

Most teams will know all that they have to do is sit and wait for him to be cut. Then they can sign him to a much lower contract ( vet min). But I am guessing that not many people will be wanting him.

Its a shame you cant trade with the CFL for a couple of cartons of beer.

actually for a starting center his contract was pretty modest compared to others....proof that he knows he's not that good...:noidea:

MasterOfPuppets
08-29-2010, 05:04 AM
i wouldnt mind trading him inside our division. he would be a step backwards for both the bengals and ravens

indeed...he's certainly nothing to be feared. he's a big reason why the short yardage rushing game sucks ass. he simply ain't strong enough to move people backwards.

ricardisimo
08-29-2010, 05:21 AM
As I recall, he also gave up more sacks than any other starting center in the league for at least two years straight. Not good.

The Lakelander
08-29-2010, 07:57 AM
I'm of the opinion it takes two thirds of a season or more before an O-Line really starts to gel.

We have 2 new starters projected to start the season on this O-Line ... Pouncey and Adams ... both are an upgrade to our rush offense in my opinion ...

All the hype about Willie Colon ... I never quite got it! .... Colon was average at best ... never dominant.

Flozell has the strength and physicality to be dominant in the rush offense.

He just needs to get his technique together on the right side.

Stop right there! ... We all know Flozell is not a kid ... He's old now ... and he's a giant ... so he is going to be slow ... get that through your heads and realize it isn't going to change and then you can take his bad plays with his good ...

When Flozell locks up onto his assignment ... IT's OVER!

His strength and leg drive blow the biggest and best defensive linemen out of the play!

As for his slowness setting up on a pass blocking assignment, at least Ben or Dixon have the legs to get away from the front side pressure ...

It's going to happen ... weak side LB's and/or DE's will be getting some heat on us this year in the pass offense ... just deal with it people! ...

And we'll have a chip blocker on that side, an HB or FB there to help ... or even a TE ... and sometimes a WR coming in to drive a block home from the side! :thumbsup:

SteelersinCA
08-29-2010, 11:13 AM
When Flozell locks up onto his assignment ... IT's OVER!



Total agreement with you there. Take into account the veteran leadership on this team that doesn't exist on the cowboys and they will have him locked down soon enough.

SteelKnight
08-29-2010, 05:43 PM
Is Urbik practice squad eligible? I too would like to keep him around a bit longer but he hasn't really made a strong push up the depth chart. Maybe we could let him develope on PS for one more year because right now I feel more comfortable with Legursky and Foster above Urbik.

Yes. he is PS eligible and that's exactly where he is heading. If some other team is dumb enough to put him on their 53 man roster, let them. It is good to train him but we cannot afford a roster spot to do it this year...no way.

tony hipchest
08-29-2010, 05:49 PM
here is an excellent (and related) blog/study-

Analyzing the Steeler Offensive Line: Preseason Week 2


We don’t know yet how good the Steelers will be. There are concerns about whether Flozell Adams will get Byron Leftwich killed and a Troy Polamalu injury could take the season from promising to frustrating very quickly.

But two weeks into the preseason, it is pretty clear that the Steelers’ backups are better than the Lions’ and Giants’ backups. Watching and rewatching the Steelers’ second- and third-team offensive line gash the Giants defense helps to wipe away any of the heartburn that came from watching Adams’ struggles in pass blocking.

I want to credit Todd in Syracuse (a regular here and on the Steel City Insider message board) for the idea of listing my log for each and every play for a lineman (instead of trying to do a plus-minus system). It takes a little longer writing down notes on each player for each snap, but it does seem to give a better feel for how a lineman performs and hopefully allows those who want to dig a little deeper to read the notes or even compare them to your own observations.

You may notice that I didn’t log the play of Max Starks, Chris Kemoeatu and Trai Essex. Those three have virtually guaranteed starting jobs to begin the season, which means that there isn’t that much to be learned by logging each of Starks’ snaps for instance. Even if Kemoeatu is struggling (which he has been at times), he’s going to start the first and the last game of the season if he’s healthy. If I had unlimited time, I’d add them to the list, but it’s time move on and to start looking at the defense.

If you’re looking for the logs on Flozell Adams and Jonathan Scott, the breakdown of how well they did ran on Sunday.

For each play, I tried to give an answer to whether the block was successful or not, as you can see in the chart below. Don’t think of this as the grades that coaches give out — they are grading in much more detail than this and with a whole lot more information. I’m not grading on proper technique or anything like that, I’m just looking for results as best they can be determined. And making a play pass/fail isn’t always easy to do — so think of these stats as helpful but don’t view them as hard and fast rules.

It’s time for me to mention a disclaimer. When watching we can’t always know the play call or the linemen’s assignments (although often it’s quite clear), so there can be some inaccuracies here, although I believe that those inaccuracies are few in number.

Justin Hartwig 17 of 19 89.5
Tony Hills 26 of 30 86.7
Kraig Urbik 18 of 21 85.7
Doug Legursky 32 of 39 82.1
Maurkice Pouncey 26 of 32 81.3
Adrian Jones 7 of 9 77.8
Jonathan Scott 30 of 39 77
Ramon Foster 23 of 30 76.7
Flozell Adams 13 of 21 61.9

If you want the thumbnail sketch of what happened, Kraig Urbik and Tony Hills were the two backup...


read the rest and tumbnails here-

http://www.steelerslounge.com/2010/08/analyzing-steeler-offensive-line-preseason-week-2/

every single play for every guy is broken down.