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Pittsburgh43
08-31-2010, 04:34 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/preview10/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=5489176


He gives Ben credit as an elite QB. Finally, somone does.

StainlessStill
08-31-2010, 04:36 PM
Oh nos.. bet me any money the Downbythelaw dude is e-mailing all of his garbage stats to Clayton RIGHT now picking and trolling a fight with it all (rolls eyes.)

Ben has been elite for years. Nothing new here.

Pittsburgh43
08-31-2010, 04:45 PM
He has been elite for years.
just glad to see it recognized

:tt03:

Steel_Bus_24
08-31-2010, 05:25 PM
I was reading some of the comments...and seeing again a bunch of trash beeing thrown at us..........


but something I've noticed over the last 2-3 years.....and I can't understand it.....

For some reason Packer fans and Dolphin fans seem to posses the same type of hatred that our rivals in our division have for us.........

Did I miss something???....what have we ever done to them over the years???

I can sort of see the Packers hating us because debates about the most hardcore and loyal fans usually come down to Green Bay vs Pittsburgh.............and they've become very ****y and loud about how they believe Aaron Rodgers owns Ben.......I don't ever remember any Steelers fans or Talking Heads provoking that debate though......Maybe its because rodgers and Ben are both good at moving around in the pocket

as for the dolphins Im just completely lost on where they have developed such hatred for us

but wherever I go on the net...it seems these two teams fans have an intense random hatred for us

chacha
08-31-2010, 05:37 PM
I was reading some of the comments...and seeing again a bunch of trash beeing thrown at us..........


but something I've noticed over the last 2-3 years.....and I can't understand it.....

For some reason Packer fans and Dolphin fans seem to posses the same type of hatred that our rivals in our division have for us.........

Did I miss something???....what have we ever done to them over the years???



Let em hate us, it's a sign our team is doing something right! (Like winning the most SB's!!!) :tt04:

StainlessStill
08-31-2010, 05:39 PM
I was reading some of the comments...and seeing again a bunch of trash beeing thrown at us..........


but something I've noticed over the last 2-3 years.....and I can't understand it.....

For some reason Packer fans and Dolphin fans seem to posses the same type of hatred that our rivals in our division have for us.........

Did I miss something???....what have we ever done to them over the years???

I can sort of see the Packers hating us because debates about the most hardcore and loyal fans usually come down to Green Bay vs Pittsburgh.............and they're become very ****y and loud about how they believe Aaron Rodgers owns Ben.......I don't ever remember any Steelers fans or Talking Heads provoking that debate though......Maybe its because rodgers and Ben are both good at moving around in the pocket

as for the dolphins Im just completely lost on where they have developed such hatred for us

but wherever I go on the net...it seems these two teams fans have an intense random hatred for us


Shit, I always say.. EVERY YEAR that if the Steelers don't make the playoffs and the Pack qualifies, that I instantly root for G.B to go all the way because from TOP to BOTTOM, we are so much alike as an organization from our tradition, all the way down to the fanbase. It's completley flip-flopped for me. I resepct GB and even picked them to win the SB this season and went on one of their fan-forums last season to wish them well...but hatred is WITHOUT A DOUBT a form of flattery.

Hell, why do we hate N.E? Indy? Because besides us, they have been the most winning team in this past decade and have been that team that just WON'T go away and is a thorn in many's side. I guess people view us the same way. 6 titles, selling out opposing stadiums, the Terrible Towel, Defense, City of Champions, blue collar fanbase, etc, etc, etc.

As for the Dolphins fans, I barely even knew they HAD fans (shrugs shoulders.)

Steel_Bus_24
08-31-2010, 06:21 PM
yeah, I mean I don't really care who hates us, its just those two teams fans stuck out because we barely ever play them, yet youd think we drop bombs on their stadiums every week


I would expect that type of venom from Pats,Colts, Ravens and Bengal fans.....

PhantomJB93
08-31-2010, 06:47 PM
John Clayton is an idiot. First of all, "elite" should only apply to Manning, Brady, Brees, and maybe Rodgers...there are not 14 "elite" QBs in the league. Second of all, if Ben is 4th Rodgers HAS to be 5th, putting Favre above him is retarded, IMO Rodgers should be 4th, Ben should be 5th (Im sorry guys, I love Ben as much as anybody but the people who argue Ben is better have clearly missed the past two years because Rodgers is better at pretty much everything, he even has Ben's mobility in and out of the pocket) and then a case can be made for Rivers or Favre. Thirdly, Cutler does not have a 95% chance of becoming an elite QB, that is saying there is only a FIVE PERCENT chance he will finish his career as an average or below average QB...not happening. Again, SAM BRADFORD has an 85% chance of being elite somehow on a team with no receiving threats an no Oline, and he hasnt even taken a snap yet, while Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez only have 55% chances of being elite? At least Sanchez won playoff games and Stafford showed flashes of greatness at times last year...

DanRooney
08-31-2010, 07:27 PM
John Clayton is an idiot. First of all, "elite" should only apply to Manning, Brady, Brees, and maybe Rodgers...there are not 14 "elite" QBs in the league. Second of all, if Ben is 4th Rodgers HAS to be 5th, putting Favre above him is retarded, IMO Rodgers should be 4th, Ben should be 5th (Im sorry guys, I love Ben as much as anybody but the people who argue Ben is better have clearly missed the past two years because Rodgers is better at pretty much everything, he even has Ben's mobility in and out of the pocket) and then a case can be made for Rivers or Favre. Thirdly, Cutler does not have a 95% chance of becoming an elite QB, that is saying there is only a FIVE PERCENT chance he will finish his career as an average or below average QB...not happening. Again, SAM BRADFORD has an 85% chance of being elite somehow on a team with no receiving threats an no Oline, and he hasnt even taken a snap yet, while Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez only have 55% chances of being elite? At least Sanchez won playoff games and Stafford showed flashes of greatness at times last year...

It's not like Ben beat Aaron Rodgers head to head backed with a worse defense :thumbsup:

stb_steeler
08-31-2010, 07:46 PM
Oh nos.. bet me any money the Downbythelaw dude is e-mailing all of his garbage stats to Clayton RIGHT now picking and trolling a fight with it all (rolls eyes.)

Ben has been elite for years. Nothing new here.

LMFAO Still wont believe it

mikegrimey
08-31-2010, 07:48 PM
It's not like Ben beat Aaron Rodgers head to head backed with a worse defense :thumbsup:


I don't even understand this logic. Head to head? They weren't duelling each other and it'd be pretty raw to criticize either QBs for the games they each played in Week 15 of last year.
For instance,

"it's not like Bruce Gradkowski didn't beat Ben head to head and with a far overall worse team."

How does that statement suit you? Logical? Not at all. You can't measure two Quarterback's against each other just by the way they preform when their two teams are playing.

That said, Ben is a better QB than Rogers, who has shown promise but hasn't stepped over any signifigant humps just yet.

fer522
08-31-2010, 09:09 PM
Rodgers an elite QB? i know hes good but what has he done? and Favre well hes only done it for like 100 year none stop so hes earned it and oh yeah Ben he has not 1 (like Manning) but 2 rings, so i think hes up there with those guys and 1 more thing 4th qt. 2 min. left in a game that really matters who would you rather have back there BIG BEN OR BIG CHOKE (Manning)
JUST SAYING


excuse my english

StainlessStill
08-31-2010, 10:11 PM
John Clayton is an idiot. First of all, "elite" should only apply to Manning, Brady, Brees, and maybe Rodgers...there are not 14 "elite" QBs in the league. Second of all, if Ben is 4th Rodgers HAS to be 5th, putting Favre above him is retarded, IMO Rodgers should be 4th, Ben should be 5th (Im sorry guys, I love Ben as much as anybody but the people who argue Ben is better have clearly missed the past two years because Rodgers is better at pretty much everything, he even has Ben's mobility in and out of the pocket) and then a case can be made for Rivers or Favre. Thirdly, Cutler does not have a 95% chance of becoming an elite QB, that is saying there is only a FIVE PERCENT chance he will finish his career as an average or below average QB...not happening. Again, SAM BRADFORD has an 85% chance of being elite somehow on a team with no receiving threats an no Oline, and he hasnt even taken a snap yet, while Matthew Stafford and Mark Sanchez only have 55% chances of being elite? At least Sanchez won playoff games and Stafford showed flashes of greatness at times last year...

I LOVE Aaron Rodgers. I said it when he first entered the league that he was going to be B-I-G and he is CERTAINLY on his way. I believe he will be that next stud QB that will lead the QB's of our generation, into the next. However, he has been known to fold in big games and has had multiple stretches of not producing the kind of numbers that was expected from him in a gunslinger type offense that likes to stretch the field and go vertical.

He has major upside though and is pretty mobile in the pocket. He took a grand beating behind that offense line last season (he's actually so much alike Ben in many categories) and if GB learns to protect him, Rodgers can certainly put up Brady '07 type numbers. He's still maturing though and him taking reigns in big games still needs to be seen. This is only his 3rd full year of starting but I would def. call Rodgers elite or atleast on the boundarie. He needs to win that BIG game, esp in the post season to stamp it since he has no big game to speak of.

Merchant
08-31-2010, 11:13 PM
I really don't understand how 2/3 thirds of those QBs belong in the "elite" group. Even Aaron Rodgers hasn't earned Elite status yet. To do that you have to prove you can generate 4th quarter comebacks, playoff wins, and a superbowl ring wouldn't hurt. Manning, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Favre.. those are the only QBs i would classify as elite. After that the closest IMO is Rivers and McNabb.

sharkweek
08-31-2010, 11:41 PM
Rodgers an elite QB? i know hes good but what has he done? and Favre well hes only done it for like 100 year none stop so hes earned it and oh yeah Ben he has not 1 (like Manning) but 2 rings, so i think hes up there with those guys and 1 more thing 4th qt. 2 min. left in a game that really matters who would you rather have back there BIG BEN OR BIG CHOKE (Manning)
JUST SAYING


excuse my english

I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure Rodgers is the first/only QB in NFL history to ever throw for 4000+ yards in his first two seasons as a starter.

And this is behind a line that is arguably worse than ours.

Not sure where your hostility comes from, but just watching all these QBs, if I could pick any QB to replace Ben (I would pick Ben above all others though) it would probably be Drew Brees first and Aaron Rodgers second. Honestly, he really has been that impressive in what few seasons he's played. Manning and Brady are getting "old" and could very well be at the peaks of their careers with nowhere to go but down (they might have a few really good seasons left, but I'm considering for a longer haul)

Seriously, which other QB has had a better past two seasons and shown more potential than Rodgers on that list other than those ranked above him? I think he's easily the #6th overall and actually better than Favre at the moment. Favre is only above him because of his legacy, but Favre vs. Rodgers? I'll take Rodgers, easily.

I really don't understand how 2/3 thirds of those QBs belong in the "elite" group. Even Aaron Rodgers hasn't earned Elite status yet. To do that you have to prove you can generate 4th quarter comebacks, playoff wins, and a superbowl ring wouldn't hurt. Manning, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, Favre.. those are the only QBs i would classify as elite. After that the closest IMO is Rivers and McNabb.

While I agree that Clayton throws around the term "elite" too loosely, I think he's also ranking the QBs on the future potential (heck, just look at the bottom where he gives his odds on QBs becoming elite).

But yeah, its absurd to have 14 elite QBs when there are 32 teams. Elite should mean the best of the best, which means there really should be only 4 or 5, unless those 14 are all putting up the same numbers (which they certainly are not) there is no way they could be considered all as elite. Elite maybe in terms of the position in global perspective, but you're starting to become average for NFL standards when you dip into the double digits.

I am currently living in Cincinnati and was listening to a sports radio show one day not too long ago, and the host brought up this topic (it was an older list of Clayton's) and how he thought it was absurd that Carson Palmer was considered elite...and this is coming from a guy who is basically paid to be a Bengals fan. His argument was basically that Palmer started out elite but hasn't really done much in the past few years, that he has potential to be elite but currently just isn't putting up those numbers.

Need4spd
09-01-2010, 07:05 AM
Oh nos.. bet me any money the Downbythelaw dude is e-mailing all of his garbage stats to Clayton RIGHT now picking and trolling a fight with it all (rolls eyes.)

Ben has been elite for years. Nothing new here.

This is so true on all accounts. You are right about homeboy and his garbage stats, but Clayton hit the nail right smack on the head with his analysis.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 07:21 AM
If you guys call them GARBAGE stats then you are saying Ben is garbage because he produced them. Now you guys are riding John Claytons jock. The same Clayton who trashed us after we beat his Seahawks. Yes, he is a Seattle native and didnt appreciate how we beat his team but moving on. Do you think John Clayton has watched much of Ben? I dont think he has. Watching national games does not qualify one to give an qualified opinion. Clayton is just like Aikman and all the rest of the guys who arent experts in terms of analysis. They do minimal homework for that weeks game and then they move on. I respect an expert like Ron Jaworski's or Steve Youngs opinion in regards to qb talent. They BOTH say that Ben is good, a winner but is slow to process the information just like I do. I guess they are both Ben haters too. Or maybe, just maybe it is true. I have never said Ben is not good. He is. He just isnt elite until he can put together consistent games. He has yet to do that. Do I think he can be elite? Yes. Lastly, If the Packers had called us and said "We will trade you Rodgers for Roethlisberger straight up". The Rooneys would jump all over that. Thing is, the packers would never make that call. ALL experts agree that Rodgers is better than Ben. Because he is. That guy is the truth.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 07:23 AM
I challenge ANY of you to list me four or five games in a row that Ben Roethlisberger has produced elite stats. The closest you will find is in 07 but thats good, not elite.I'll be waiting

TackleMeBen
09-01-2010, 07:38 AM
He gives Ben credit as an elite QB. Finally, somone does.
he is only doing that so Ben will stay away from his daughter..lol :chuckle:

Steelers>NFL
09-01-2010, 07:39 AM
Clayton picked BB as elite. Big deal. So were 13 other QBS.
Even Flacco. Give me a break!

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 07:52 AM
I see you guys didnt notice that Clayton the 'expert" has bens line at FLAT. Whereas he has Rodgers, Flacco, Rivers, Romo and Manning going up. So YOUR expert things that Ben has topped out in terms of talent. Might want to annalyze the article a little closer

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 09:52 AM
Seems like the guys are having a hard time finding those consecutive games. Hmmmmmmmmmmmm

StainlessStill
09-01-2010, 10:10 AM
I see you guys didnt notice that Clayton the 'expert" has bens line at FLAT. Whereas he has Rodgers, Flacco, Rivers, Romo and Manning going up. So YOUR expert things that Ben has topped out in terms of talent. Might want to annalyze the article a little closer

Obviously it's "flat" due to the start of this 2010 season (to which this article is intended for) of him being out atleast a month. He's still listed at number 4 even with the "flat" status. Take a closer look.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 10:13 AM
Obviously it's "flat" due to the start of this 2010 season (to which this article is intended for) of him being out atleast a month. He's still listed at number 4 even with the "flat" status. Take a closer look.

And Clayton is an expert in what regard? I remember that pervert Salisbury proving he is no expert.

StainlessStill
09-01-2010, 10:24 AM
And Clayton is an expert in what regard? I remember that pervert Salisbury proving he is no expert.

Noone is no "expert." Hell, these guys get paid a good hefty amount of dough to say the same exact things that we all post on here on a daily basis.

However, Clayton is a experienced journalist and well informed veteran sports writer who simply studies the game much more than any fan could do. It's a basis of opinion, but seeing his article only adds credibility to the debate. Your copy and paste stats from nfl.com is no exception to the figment of your own "expert" analysis to which you speak of "fact" when it's really a basis and matter of opinion anyway you break it down.

When it comes down to it with my own personal opinion and watching every Steelers game since I've known what football meant, is that Ben's performances and winning accountability he shows every Sunday gives me every reason to list him with the quarterbacks of the elite and no stat or fantasy football junk could convince me otherwise. It's good to see many others are starting to take notice.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 10:37 AM
Noone is no "expert." Hell, these guys get paid a good hefty amount of dough to say the same exact things that we all post on here on a daily basis.

However, Clayton is a experienced journalist and well informed veteran sports writer who simply studies the game much more than any fan could do. It's a basis of opinion, but seeing his article only adds credibility to the debate. Your copy and paste stats from nfl.com is no exception to the figment of your own "expert" analysis to which you speak of "fact" when it's really a basis and matter of opinion anyway you break it down.

When it comes down to it with my own personal opinion and watching every Steelers game since I've known what football meant, is that Ben's performances and winning accountability he shows every Sunday gives me every reason to list him with the quarterbacks of the elite and no stat or fantasy football junk could convince me otherwise. It's good to see many others are starting to take notice.

Actually, I disagree. Clayton is an expert REPORTER. He has inside connection just like Shefter and Mort. Thats where his expertise stops. Journalists are writers sir, they dont assess talent they write stories. Big difference. I havent copied and pasted any stats, they are my OWN assessments of what I saw. If I copied and pasted them then please present the original. Those stats have my own words to them as I watched those games. Sorry. I guarantee Clayton cant do the same. I guarantee he cant quote 10 games Ben has played in and give you details. He also trashed him after the Super Bowl loss so is he still an expert? I think not.
Yes I agree with you. EVERYTHING I say is MY opinion. I'm glad you have come to realize that. So why do you get mad about MY opinion? Thats absurd. I am one man posting my opinion. Its an opinion that MOST Steeler fans dont like. Having said that, that means I get twice the amount of people who dont like my opinion and they tell me so. Do I get mad at them for not agreeing with them? No, if I dont agree, I rebut it. Simple. No need for hostilities, we are all Steeler fans. Do you think I root for Ben to screw up so I can say "I told you so". Thats again, absurd. If that happens my team loses the game. I root for Ben. I see a TALENTED guy who is underachieving, one who could be better. If you are satisfied with Ben as is, then thats fine. I think he could be better and if he is, the Steelers are better. Its funny you always mention fantasy football but you wont find ONE post of mine ever mentioning that. I'm into CONSISTENT EXECUTION sir, not fantasy points. If Ben gets consistent, NOBODY WILL TOUCH US.

StainlessStill
09-01-2010, 10:40 AM
Actually, I disagree. Clayton is an expert REPORTER. He has inside connection just like Shefter and Mort. Thats where his expertise stops. Journalists are writers sir, they dont assess talent they write stories. Big difference. I havent copied and pasted any stats, they are my OWN assessments of what I saw. If I copied and pasted them then please present the original. Those stats have my own words to them as I watched those games. Sorry. I guarantee Clayton cant do the same. I guarantee he cant quote 10 games Ben has played in and give you details. He also trashed him after the Super Bowl loss so is he still an expert? I think not.
Yes I agree with you. EVERYTHING I say is MY opinion. I'm glad you have come to realize that. So why do you get mad about MY opinion? Thats absurd. I am one man posting my opinion. Its an opinion that MOST Steeler fans dont like. Having said that, that means I get twice the amount of people who dont like my opinion and they tell me so. Do I get mad at them for not agreeing with them? No, if I dont agree, I rebut it. Simple. No need for hostilities, we are all Steeler fans. Do you think I root for Ben to screw up so I can say "I told you so". Thats again, absurd. If that happens my team loses the game. I root for Ben. I see a TALENTED guy who is underachieving, one who could be better. If you are satisfied with Ben as is, then thats fine. I think he could be better and if he is, the Steelers are better. Its funny you always mention fantasy football but you wont find ONE post of mine ever mentioning that. I'm into CONSISTENT EXECUTION sir, not fantasy points. If Ben gets consistent, NOBODY WILL TOUCH US.

I'm so sick of replying to you and arguing that whatever you just said, I didn't read. So the only thing I have to say is HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO.:tt04: (One thing we CAN agree on.)

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 11:09 AM
HERE WE GO STEELERS HERE WE GO!!!

SteelKnight
09-01-2010, 11:51 AM
This list looks just like my list ...I swear. That Down guy that doesn't like Ben would not agree with me.

Very similar. I'll go find mine.

SteelKnight
09-01-2010, 12:01 PM
OK here's my ranking from before:

Ben is probably the 4th best QB in the league behind Manning, Brady and Brees (undecided order).

Fifth Farve at this point.
6th Rogers
7th Rivers
8th/9th McNaab/Romo -take pick
10th Eli

So basically, we agree on the first 9 and he has Palmer ahead of Eli...so our Top 10 is almost exactly alike. Go figure.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 12:52 PM
I dont agree with you. Favre, Rodgers and Rivers are better than Ben. Sorry

StainlessStill
09-01-2010, 01:52 PM
I dont agree with you. Favre, Rodgers and Rivers are better than Ben. Sorry

And Ben has more rings than all of those QB's COMBINED, even going up against a legend that is Favre that's played for 20+ years with only one ring to show for it. Stop saying things like "sorry" at the end of your posts like your opinion is the only opinion that matters haha.

SteelKnight
09-01-2010, 03:30 PM
I dont agree with you. Favre, Rodgers and Rivers are better than Ben. Sorry

Ha...but you see somebody else agrees with me. Our top 10 lists match almost perfectly.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 09:36 PM
And Ben has more rings than all of those QB's COMBINED, even going up against a legend that is Favre that's played for 20+ years with only one ring to show for it. Stop saying things like "sorry" at the end of your posts like your opinion is the only opinion that matters haha.

So does Ike Taylor and Deshae Townsend so does that make them better than Champ Bailey and Nmamdi? It doesnt. Sorry.

Downbylaw
09-01-2010, 09:37 PM
Ha...but you see somebody else agrees with me. Our top 10 lists match almost perfectly.

So you agree with a guy who think the Steelers stole SB 40. Is that something to be proud of?

DrunkFlea
09-02-2010, 10:43 AM
The same Clayton who trashed us after we beat his Seahawks. Yes, he is a Seattle native and didnt appreciate how we beat his team but moving on. Do you think John Clayton has watched much of Ben? I dont think he has. Watching national games does not qualify one to give an qualified opinion. Clayton is just like Aikman and all the rest of the guys who arent experts in terms of analysis. They do minimal homework for that weeks game and then they move on. I respect an expert like Ron Jaworski's or Steve Youngs opinion in regards to qb talent. They BOTH say that Ben is good, a winner but is slow to process the information just like I do. I guess they are both Ben haters too. Or maybe, just maybe it is true. I have never said Ben is not good. He is. He just isnt elite until he can put together consistent games. He has yet to do that. Do I think he can be elite? Yes. Lastly, If the Packers had called us and said "We will trade you Rodgers for Roethlisberger straight up". The Rooneys would jump all over that. Thing is, the packers would never make that call. ALL experts agree that Rodgers is better than Ben. Because he is. That guy is the truth.


John Clayton was born and raised rigt here in Pittsburgh. He was also the Steelers beat writer during the 80's, is an avid Pirates fan, and a regular guest of our local sports radio. I've listened to him call in to discuss our team in depth no less than 10 times since the season ended.

I may not agree with everything he says, but typically his analysis is pretty good.

joeyssteelcurtain
09-02-2010, 10:49 AM
So does Ike Taylor and Deshae Townsend so does that make them better than Champ Bailey and Nmamdi? It doesnt. Sorry.



That's not the same thing and you know it in the nfl QB backs are judged on one thing and that's rings and Are QB has 2

Downbylaw
09-02-2010, 11:56 AM
John Clayton was born and raised rigt here in Pittsburgh. He was also the Steelers beat writer during the 80's, is an avid Pirates fan, and a regular guest of our local sports radio. I've listened to him call in to discuss our team in depth no less than 10 times since the season ended.

I may not agree with everything he says, but typically his analysis is pretty good.

I understand that but he resides in Seattle and is an avid SEAHAWK fan. He also had bad things to say about how we won SB40. Again, he is a reporter and no expert on Quarterbacks.

Downbylaw
09-02-2010, 11:59 AM
That's not the same thing and you know it in the nfl QB backs are judged on one thing and that's rings and Are QB has 2

Why isnt it the same thing? Because it defeats your argument? Ben has more rings than Peyton, Dan Marino, Fran Tarkenton, Dan Fouts, Ken Anderson, Warren Moon and Steve Young. Does that mean he is better? No, it just means he is fortunate. Just like Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson and Hostetler. Ben is not the PRIMARY reason the Steelers are good. Defense is and thats why he has ZERO Super Bowl MVP's just like Townsend and Ike.