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cloppbeast
09-06-2010, 10:49 AM
I'm normally not one to criticize Arians, because I think he receives enough flack around this town. Overall, I think he's a decent offensive coordinator. But his trying to force Dixon to be a pocket passer is kind of crazy. He's trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

He designed this offense around the unique skill set of his players, namely Ben Roethlisberger. But, Dixon can not do all the things Ben can do, and vise-versa. Dixon may not be able to stand in the pocket and deliver an accurate pass with defenders hanging on him, but he makes up for that with his unique scrambling ability. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Arians considers that a liability rather than an asset.

I would much rather Dixon run for five yards than throw and incomplete pass, or worse an interception. If Dixon doesn't feel confident making a certain throw, and he would rather run it, I say go for it. A few good runs will force the defense to adjust, with will open up passing lanes down the middle. This is the point I think Arians misses. I agree that Dixon will not be successful running on every other pass play, but the simple threat of a run will make the passing attack that much better. Defenses must do one of two things 1) take 1 or 2 linebackers who would normally be blitzing or in coverage and make them spy Dixon, or 2) have the defensive line play contain instead of rush. Either one of these adjustments would help the passing game.

I will admit that Dixon will struggle as a pure pocket passer, but it seems a huge waste to force that role on him. Why draft a guy who runs probably 4.4 or 4.5 and make him stand in the pocket?

If used correctly, I think Dixon would be a much better quarterback than Batch, but if they plan to use him as strictly a pocket passer, might as well go with Batch. Even the experience won't do Dixon any good, because he probably won't ever be a good pocket passer.

Downbylaw
09-06-2010, 11:15 AM
I'm normally not one to criticize Arians, because I think he receives enough flack around this town. Overall, I think he's a decent offensive coordinator. But his trying to force Dixon to be a pocket passer is kind of crazy. He's trying to fit the square peg into the round hole.

He designed this offense around the unique skill set of his players, namely Ben Roethlisberger. But, Dixon can not do all the things Ben can do, and vise-versa. Dixon may not be able to stand in the pocket and deliver an accurate pass with defenders hanging on him, but he makes up for that with his unique scrambling ability. For the life of me, I cannot understand why Arians considers that a liability rather than an asset.

I would much rather Dixon run for five yards than throw and incomplete pass, or worse an interception. If Dixon doesn't feel confident making a certain throw, and he would rather run it, I say go for it. A few good runs will force the defense to adjust, with will open up passing lanes down the middle. This is the point I think Arians misses. I agree that Dixon will not be successful running on every other pass play, but the simple threat of a run will make the passing attack that much better. Defenses must do one of two things 1) take 1 or 2 linebackers who would normally be blitzing or in coverage and make them spy Dixon, or 2) have the defensive line play contain instead of rush. Either one of these adjustments would help the passing game.

I will admit that Dixon will struggle as a pure pocket passer, but it seems a huge waste to force that role on him. Why draft a guy who runs probably 4.4 or 4.5 and make him stand in the pocket?

If used correctly, I think Dixon would be a much better quarterback than Batch, but if they plan to use him as strictly a pocket passer, might as well go with Batch. Even the experience won't do Dixon any good, because he probably won't ever be a good pocket passer.

+1000
Case and point. We beat Baltimore last season IF Arians gets him on the move. Its the equivalent of telling Michael Jordan not to use his jumping ability. "Just shoot set shots Michael". Makes no sense

Fire Haley
09-06-2010, 11:26 AM
Arians should have been fired long ago - I think he's Ben's pet.

Orange
09-06-2010, 11:31 AM
I agree, but if I remember correctly Arians has said he doesn't want him to run so much because he thinks he will get broken in half.

I think that's half true but he has shown he has some ability to know when to get out of bounds or down to the ground. I think if anything he's going to end up getting hurt while he's standing in the pocket with his eyes down-field.

cloppbeast
09-06-2010, 11:43 AM
I think if anything he's going to end up getting hurt while he's standing in the pocket with his eyes down-field.

When a quarterback is running down field, he knows when he's going to get hit and can get his body ready for impact, slide, or go out of bounds. When a quarterback is in the pocket, often he is a sitting duck. Palmer, Brady, and most recently Leftwich were all standing in the pocket when they were significantly injured.

mesaSteeler
09-06-2010, 12:04 PM
I could not agree more. Airhead Arians, the passing Nazi, will never accept that an offense has to be balanced. Tying to force someone like Dixon into being a pocket passer won't work but he doesn't care. What is really sad is that his pass happy offense does not produce more points than a balanced attack would. See the article. http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=56662

Arians is the reason that I have little faith we will better than 8-8. I'm sure he will "throw" away games this year the same way he did last year.

mesaSteeler
09-06-2010, 12:05 PM
Arians should have been fired long ago - I think he's Ben's pet.

:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::

pete74
09-06-2010, 12:06 PM
i agree 100% with you. if dixon cant play his game then he will be horrible and there is no point to playing him

stb_steeler
09-06-2010, 12:15 PM
I could not agree more. Airhead Arians, the passing Nazi, will never accept that an offense has to be balanced. Tying to force someone like Dixon into being a pocket passer won't work but he doesn't care. What is really sad is that his pass happy offense does not produce more points than a balanced attack would. See the article. http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=56662

Arians is the reason that I have little faith we will better than 8-8. I'm sure he will "throw" away games this year the same way he did last year.

And that is why we continue to struggle in the redzone.

StainlessStill
09-06-2010, 12:17 PM
When a quarterback is running down field, he knows when he's going to get hit and can get his body ready for impact, slide, or go out of bounds. When a quarterback is in the pocket, often he is a sitting duck. Palmer, Brady, and most recently Leftwich were all standing in the pocket when they were significantly injured.

Tell that to Troy Aikman, John Elway or recently, Pat White who got his BLOCK knocked off last season. Or, Michael Vick who snapped his leg in two some pre-seasons ago. Quarterbacks career's are ended more times than none because of taking severe hits to the head while scrambling and out of the pocket and/or running for their lives.

cloppbeast
09-06-2010, 12:43 PM
Tell that to Troy Aikman, John Elway or recently, Pat White who got his BLOCK knocked off last season. Or, Michael Vick who snapped his leg in two some pre-seasons ago. Quarterbacks career's are ended more times than none because of taking severe hits to the head while scrambling and out of the pocket and/or running for their lives.

I really have no idea why Troy Aikman or John Elway are doing in this discussion. Are you saying either one of them are running quarterbacks, or are you saying they never got hurt?

You and I can come up with a laundry list of quarterback injuries that come as the result of standing in the pocket or scrambling, and it wouldn't prove anything, but your examples aren't very good. I believe Michael Vick broke his leg while he was in the back field. He was evading a defender to throw it down field, the same thing Ben does one basically every play.

Pat White? C'mon dude. His injury was the result of stupidity. Pat White is about 6', 200 lbs, and he tries to put his head down? Of course he's going to get knocked out. Dixon will never do anything that stupid, he would have done the smart thing and just ran out of bounds.

Downbylaw
09-06-2010, 12:45 PM
And that is why we continue to struggle in the redzone.

We struggled in the redzone when Wiz was here as well. Its not Arians or Wiz, its Ben.

cloppbeast
09-06-2010, 12:53 PM
I could not agree more. Airhead Arians, the passing Nazi, will never accept that an offense has to be balanced. Tying to force someone like Dixon into being a pocket passer won't work but he doesn't care. What is really sad is that his pass happy offense does not produce more points than a balanced attack would. See the article. http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=56662

Arians is the reason that I have little faith we will better than 8-8. I'm sure he will "throw" away games this year the same way he did last year.

I really don't have the same problem with the pass-happy offense as most others in Pittsburgh. I believe Arians has done pretty well with this offense and has used his personnel very well. I wish he'd run a little bit more with the lead, but overall, I don't have a problem passing a lot. The game has changed, it's the 21st century. As Jaws always says, "Points are scored through the passing game".

The Colts and Saints weren't in the Superbowl last year because they could run the ball really well. Their respective offenses weren't built to pass the ball, but could run successfully in certain situations when it was needed. But, make no mistake about it, they were passing teams.

With Arian's emphasis on the pass, though, I wish he would still realize what he has in Dixon's legs. Even if Dixon only scrambles on 4-6 plays a game, that will still forces the opposing defense to adjust - which will in turn help the passing game. If passing the ball is what Arians wants to do, then let Dixon run.

Downbylaw
09-06-2010, 12:56 PM
Agreed 100%

scsteeler
09-06-2010, 01:16 PM
Yes I agree that Arians should be smart enough to build an offensive plan around Dixon's abilities and create more problems for other teams rather than trying to mold him into someone that maybe takes away one of his best attributes like scrambling.



If this is the main reason Dixon is not starting Arians should think about retiring because you need to be able to scheme around the strengths of your players and not mold them into what you think they should be.

StainlessStill
09-06-2010, 01:25 PM
I really have no idea why Troy Aikman or John Elway are doing in this discussion. Are you saying either one of them are running quarterbacks, or are you saying they never got hurt?

You and I can come up with a laundry list of quarterback injuries that come as the result of standing in the pocket or scrambling, and it wouldn't prove anything, but your examples aren't very good. I believe Michael Vick broke his leg while he was in the back field. He was evading a defender to throw it down field, the same thing Ben does one basically every play.

Pat White? C'mon dude. His injury was the result of stupidity. Pat White is about 6', 200 lbs, and he tries to put his head down? Of course he's going to get knocked out. Dixon will never do anything that stupid, he would have done the smart thing and just ran out of bounds.

When a quarterback is running down field, he knows when he's going to get hit and can get his body ready for impact, slide, or go out of bounds. When a quarterback is in the pocket, often he is a sitting duck. Palmer, Brady, and most recently Leftwich were all standing in the pocket when they were significantly injured.

It sounds to me that you're coming to the defense's of quarterback's who are smart enough and has the awareness out of the pocket to do what is necc. to avoid injury when that certainly isn't the case. You bring up that it was Brady and Leftwhich that were injured in the pocket to verify your argument for giving Dixon the right to unleash downfield.

I'm simply stating that in Arians defense that your theory isn't always the case and THESE are the reasons why Arians isn't going to put his lanky, 190 pound QB in harms way to develop a whole offensive playbook to let him take off down field. My point in naming those QB's came at the expense that once a QB takes off, more times than none, the percentage of injury to a QB severely sky rockets.

Dixon will never do anything that stupid, he would have done the smart thing and just ran out of bounds.

How do you know this and whose to say? All speculation. Qb's, esp young ones trying to impress & will do anything in their power to prove they are tough and have what it takes to make it in the NFL and show their coaches and the entire league that they have what it takes. Don't think for a second that Dixon, atleast one time if we will see him, go for that extra yard while Bruce Arians and Mike Tomlin cringe in the process.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BynBZNiE9EA&p=3794FCA115AB3980&playnext=1&index=4. Troy Aikmen's career ending injury and a reason why Arian's and company would NOT want Dixon to take off out of the pocket every play.

As for Michael Vick, I remember watching that game. He was well upfield and chased out of the pocket when he was tackled in the middle of the field during a scramble, snapping his fibula.( http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/9890/falcons_star_quarterback_vick_breaks_leg/index.html)

Look no further than our own team several years ago. Charlie Batch showed his toughness and lowered his shoulders to a defensive player delivering a blow. Result? Broken collar bone.

Look at Tim Tebow just weeks ago. He made the careless mistake to lower his shoulders and took a hit STRAIGHT on into the endzone, only to collapse his ribs in the process. These are only the few solid reasons why Arians doesn't want his QB running down field like a chicken with his head cut off. I think it's blatantly clear as to why the Steelers won't let him run around relentlessly back there and for GOOD REASON for the simple fact that this isn't the time to elevate the risk of injury as much as it already is by carelessly letting him run against defense that are there to maim. Of course, Dixon will take off, that's blatant, but he's also going to have to be mature enough to hang in there and let awareness of he pocket take over as well and that's the safer bet.

cloppbeast
09-06-2010, 01:50 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BynBZNiE9EA&p=3794FCA115AB3980&playnext=1&index=4. Troy Aikmen's career ending injury and a reason why Arian's and company would NOT want Dixon to take off out of the pocket every play.


Aikmen wasn't running down field, he was flushed from the pocket. Every quarterback does this from time to time - even pocket passers. I don't think anyone would argue a quarterback shouldn't run from a guy who is trying to tackle him.

I'm talking about a quarterback running the ball down field after a play breaks down.

As for Michael Vick, I remember watching that game. He was well upfield and chased out of the pocket when he was tackled in the middle of the field during a scramble, snapping his fibula.( http://www.redorbit.com/news/general/9890/falcons_star_quarterback_vick_breaks_leg/index.html)

Your URL doesn't indicate what Vick was doing when he was injured. It only says, "On third-and-6 from the Atlanta 5 late in the first quarter, Vick was chased out of the pocket and was tackled by Adalius Thomas". 'Chased out of the pocket' doesn't necessarily mean he was running down field, it could mean he was running laterally to the line of scrimmage, just like Aikmen. I remember Vick being in the backfield when it happened, but I could be wrong, just as you could be wrong.

Look at Tim Tebow just weeks ago. He made the careless mistake to lower his shoulders and took a hit STRAIGHT on into the endzone, only to collapse his ribs in the process. These are only thew reasons why Arians doesn't want his QB running down field like a chicken with his head cut off. I think it's blatantly clear as to why the Steelers won't let him run around relentlessly back there and for GOOD REASON for the simple fact that this isn't the time to elevate the risk of injury as much as it already is.

If those are Arians reasons, they're at least respectable. But I do think it's ironic that he'll never change the offense to prevent Ben from getting sacked 50+ times a year.

If I were Arians, I wouldn't want Dixon running every play, but I would still encourage him to run when the play breaks down. I would definitely make sure he understood that he better get out of bounds or slide.

StainlessStill
09-06-2010, 02:00 PM
Aikmen wasn't running down field, he was flushed from the pocket. Every quarterback does this from time to time - even pocket passers. I don't think anyone would argue a quarterback shouldn't run from a guy who is trying to tackle him.

I'm talking about a quarterback running the ball down field after a play breaks down.



Your URL doesn't indicate what Vick was doing when he was injured. It only says, "On third-and-6 from the Atlanta 5 late in the first quarter, Vick was chased out of the pocket and was tackled by Adalius Thomas". 'Chased out of the pocket' doesn't necessarily mean he was running down field, it could mean he was running laterally to the line of scrimmage, just like Aikmen. I remember Vick being in the backfield when it happened, but I could be wrong, just as you could be wrong.


If those are Arians reasons, they're at least respectable. But I do think it's ironic that he'll never change the offense to prevent Ben from getting sacked 50+ times a year.

If I were Arians, I wouldn't want Dixon running every play, but I would still encourage him to run when the play breaks down. I would definitely make sure he understood that he better get out of bounds or slide.

I'm atleast 100% confident that Vick injured his leg while taking off upfield. I've seen the video more times then 1 but can't find the video anymore. Nonetheless, that's not important. :noidea::hatsoff:

When it boils down to it, I see why Arians doesn't want to expand his young QB's horizon into planting in his head that he could take off every play. Like we said, apart of Dixon's play is to get his legs movin' but that won't give him the kind of insurance he will need for all 4 qrts. He will eventually have to stay in the pocket, somewhere Arians wants him and is training him to be to be successful in this league.

joeyssteelcurtain
09-07-2010, 06:06 AM
The only way we are going to win with Dixon in there is if he runs first and pass 2nd

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 06:13 AM
Thats crazy. Guys act like Dixon cant pass. Dont be fooled. He is NO Kordell. This kid can pass, its just a mattter of getting comfortable on the field. And the game slowing down. When it does, LOOK OUT

cloppbeast
09-07-2010, 09:01 AM
Thats crazy. Guys act like Dixon cant pass. Dont be fooled. He is NO Kordell. This kid can pass, its just a mattter of getting comfortable on the field. And the game slowing down. When it does, LOOK OUT

I know Dixon can pass. He's accurate and has a strong arm. I'm more worried about him reading the defense, knowing where to go with the ball, and making good decisions.

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 09:52 AM
Agreed. That is where experience comes in. That is the main reason, I thought we would go with Batch. If we could have Batch's mind, with Dixons ability, we would be 4-0, EASY

stb_steeler
09-07-2010, 02:24 PM
We struggled in the redzone when Wiz was here as well. Its not Arians or Wiz, its Ben.

So basically every redzone play is called by Ben?...Im not blaming either one of them, its a team effort. Been a problem for a long time now.

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 02:40 PM
So basically every redzone play is called by Ben?...Im not blaming either one of them, its a team effort. Been a problem for a long time now.

When Ben threw that game winning pass to Tone in SB43 who did you give the credit to, Ben or Arians? I rest my case.

stb_steeler
09-07-2010, 02:59 PM
When Ben threw that game winning pass to Tone in SB43 who did you give the credit to, Ben or Arians? I rest my case.

ROONEY.....I rest my case!:flap:

BengalDestroyer
09-07-2010, 07:04 PM
Didn't we get Arians from Cleavland? He needs to go, if you ask me his pass first, run second is against everything Steelers. We need to get back to hard nose, grinding out yards football. I Hate Arians, and he deserves all the criticism he gets, I haven't liked him since he came to Pittsburgh.

Steeldude
09-08-2010, 12:59 AM
the steelers wouldn't have this problem if they drafted QB instead of kordell part 2

MasterOfPuppets
09-08-2010, 01:17 AM
the steelers wouldn't have this problem if they drafted QB instead of kordell part 2

yeah , i'd feel much better if brian st peter were still here ...:popcorn:

drizze99
09-08-2010, 07:56 AM
Arians needs to be fired. I have not liked him since day 1. The only reason why he is still around is because the Steelers have the talent to overcome his terrible ability at OC.

SteelMember
09-08-2010, 08:27 AM
Tomlin did counter this sentiment the other day.

Coordinator Bruce Arians was not happy that Dixon ran several times out of the pocket early in the preseason when he said receivers were open. Arians preferred Dixon throw the pass. But Tomlin said Monday that,

"We just want him to do what comes natural. If he's playing on instinct and knowledge, it's like running water.

"I think if you give him too much instruction in regards of things you're discussing then it's not going to be natural. It's not going to be fluid. It's not going to be natural. It's not going to be comfortable. And those are things I want his performance to be."

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10251/1085829-66.stm

Sounds like Mike is saying "whatever gets the job done". :thmbup:

cloppbeast
09-08-2010, 08:56 AM
yeah , i'd feel much better if brian st peter were still here ...:popcorn:

Is this a joke?

urgle burgle
09-08-2010, 03:57 PM
in my opinion he does whatever is needed to, in the words of Aristotle...."WIN THE GAME." He gets broken in half doing that, so be it. He is a backup, and we only need to ride him(or Batch) for four games. Obviously, I dont' want that to happen, and I don't want him to take completely unnecessary risks, but we need to go at least 2-2. So, in my opinion, he does whatever it takes to win. We'll let the cards fall as they may.

Steeldude
09-21-2010, 09:53 AM
yeah , i'd feel much better if brian st peter were still here ...:popcorn:

i would feel much better if they drafted stephen hawking over dixon :coffee: