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SteelKnight
09-06-2010, 04:33 PM
They just started O-line Stats. They have data from last year only since this is new.

The Steelers were ranked 31st in the league.
http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&conference=null&role=TM&offensiveStatisticCategory=OFFENSIVE_LINE&defensiveStatisticCategory=null&season=2009&seasonType=REG&tabSeq=2&qualified=true&Submit=Go

There you go...and people keep saying we have the worst O-line. Now stand corrected.

Anyway, I'm sure we will be better this year.

SteelKnight
09-06-2010, 04:36 PM
Oh...I see...they have complex run analysis but to position the ranking, they just used sacks.

Well if the O-line says it is just Ben, they have their chance to prove it in the first games.

pete74
09-06-2010, 06:28 PM
our line sucks especially the inside. pouncy is a future pro bowler but essex is nothing better then a backup and kemo isnt far behind him. im not sure how good foster is but he should be starting because you cant get worse then essex

Downbylaw
09-06-2010, 07:17 PM
Our O-line does not suck. The sacks are on Ben. You will see. When Wiz and Grimm were here our line sucked then? I think not but we still had a sack problem. Know why? BEN

scsteeler
09-06-2010, 07:29 PM
Pouncey upgrades our line greatly. The runs up the middle will be much better with him there.

ETL
09-06-2010, 09:56 PM
Live here in Chicago. No one can be worse than the bears

zulater
09-06-2010, 10:11 PM
Our O-line does not suck. The sacks are on Ben. You will see. When Wiz and Grimm were here our line sucked then? I think not but we still had a sack problem. Know why? BEN

Is it Ben's fault when the backs get stuffed at the line ( if not behind it) on 3rd and short constantly too?

MACH1
09-06-2010, 10:18 PM
Our O-line does not suck. The sacks are on Ben. You will see. When Wiz and Grimm were here our line sucked then? I think not but we still had a sack problem. Know why? BEN

Yep, it's all Ben's fault. Especially when the D is back there to take the hand offs too. :doh:

Downbylaw
09-06-2010, 10:47 PM
Is it Ben's fault when the backs get stuffed at the line ( if not behind it) on 3rd and short constantly too?

Are you saying that never happens to the Saints? Colts? Happens to every team.

Downbylaw
09-06-2010, 10:51 PM
Yep, it's all Ben's fault. Especially when the D is back there to take the hand offs too. :doh:

Penetration happens to every team. Did you read the link? Obviously not. The rankings were based on SACKS. And last I heard, tackling the back behind the line is not a sack. Again, what I stated earlier is the SACKS are on Ben. They were there with Wiz and Grimm and the line was one of the league best. We led the league in rushing in 04, were top 5 in 05. The line was great But we had a sack problem was it the line? Maybe it was Wiz. Its ANYBODY but Ben lol

DanRooney
09-07-2010, 01:28 AM
Our O-line does not suck. The sacks are on Ben. You will see. When Wiz and Grimm were here our line sucked then? I think not but we still had a sack problem. Know why? BEN

Do you watch the Steelers?

The o-line is wretched. Just look at their play in the preseason. Ben wasn't in most of the time but I guess Flozell and Kemoeatu getting consistently beat were Leftwich and Dixon's fault. Or how about the inside completely collapses around Hartwig when he was in? How about all of the false start and holding penalties?

Do you just like saying controversial and false things to get attention? Are you still expecting Charlie Batch to start?

DanRooney
09-07-2010, 01:29 AM
Penetration happens to every team. Did you read the link? Obviously not. The rankings were based on SACKS. And last I heard, tackling the back behind the line is not a sack. Again, what I stated earlier is the SACKS are on Ben. They were there with Wiz and Grimm and the line was one of the league best. We led the league in rushing in 04, were top 5 in 05. The line was great But we had a sack problem was it the line? Maybe it was Wiz. Its ANYBODY but Ben lol

Ben didn't have many sacks in 04 or 05...

Wrong again :thumbsup:

zulater
09-07-2010, 05:31 AM
Are you saying that never happens to the Saints? Colts? Happens to every team.

I think over the past two seasons statistically the Steelers were the worst or darn near the worst in converting 3rd and short yardage situations with the ground game. You don't think that affects the blitz packages you'll see on 3rd and 2, 3rd and 3 etc... You can't see how a team that's offensive line can more often than not drive's the defense back and provide a hole for a back will force a defense to commit more resources to stopping the run and how that in effect will help the passing game? :doh:

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 05:38 AM
Do you watch the Steelers?

The o-line is wretched. Just look at their play in the preseason. Ben wasn't in most of the time but I guess Flozell and Kemoeatu getting consistently beat were Leftwich and Dixon's fault. Or how about the inside completely collapses around Hartwig when he was in? How about all of the false start and holding penalties?

Do you just like saying controversial and false things to get attention? Are you still expecting Charlie Batch to start?

You said it. PRE SEASON. My statements are based on th regular season. You know the stats that actually COUNT. Not only was I expecting Batch to start so were Bouchette and Chris Mortenson. Guesss they are seeking attention as well. SIGH

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 05:40 AM
Ben didn't have many sacks in 04 or 05...

Wrong again :thumbsup:

Per attempt? Yes he did. Here I'll show you.

2004
Ben 295 Att 30 sacks
P.Manning 497 Att 13 sacks
Plummer 521 Att 15 sacks
Favre 540 Att 12 sacks

2005
Ben 261 Atts 23 sacks
P.Manning 453 Atts 17 sacks
C.Palmer 509 Atts 19 sacks
Brady 530 Atts 26 sacks

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 05:45 AM
I think over the past two seasons statistically the Steelers were the worst or darn near the worst in converting 3rd and short yardage situations with the ground game. You don't think that affects the blitz packages you'll see on 3rd and 2, 3rd and 3 etc... You can't see how a team that's offensive line can more often than not drive's the defense back and provide a hole for a back will force a defense to commit more resources to stopping the run and how that in effect will help the passing game? :doh:

Two words. WILLIE PARKER

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 07:50 AM
Pouncey upgrades our line greatly. The runs up the middle will be much better with him there.

I agree plus, a weak center messes up both of the guards. It messes up the tackles too because they can't phonebooth.

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 08:24 AM
Look. I'm not going to lie. Some of the sacks are Ben's fault...but we already know that. He extends the play and also gets us some nice passes.

This can be proven simply by comparing the sack to QB hit ratio.

Ben 64%
Brady 26%
Manning 30%
Brees 38%
Rogers 55%
Rivers 49%
Farve 41%

Make no mistake about it, 64% is very high. For least QB hits we were 17th.

At the same time, Ben probably saves a lot of sacks with his scrambling ability and toughness to bring down. These are some plays where other QBs would have been sacked. Maybe overall they come close to balancing each other. If Ben could throw away 2 balls per game where he would have gotten sacked, that would be 32 less sacks per year. Even 1 would cut his sacks down by 16 which would look a lot better for the line.

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 08:37 AM
Look. I'm not going to lie. Some of the sacks are Ben's fault...but we already know that. He extends the play and also gets us some nice passes.

This can be proven simply by comparing the sack to QB hit ratio.

Ben 64%
Brady 26%
Manning 30%
Brees 38%
Rogers 55%
Rivers 49%
Farve 41%

Make no mistake about it, 64% is very high. For least QB hits we were 17th.

At the same time, Ben probably saves a lot of sacks with his scrambling ability and toughness to bring down. These are some plays where other QBs would have been sacked. Maybe overall they come close to balancing each other. If Ben could throw away 2 balls per game where he would have gotten sacked, that would be 32 less sacks per year. Even 1 would cut his sacks down by 16 which would look a lot better for the line.

The stats make my point. Sacks are for one reason and one reason only. SLOW TO PROCESS THE INFORMATION. Look how quickly Brees, Brady and Manning get the ball out. They process the info fast and get it out. It makes their line look great. How was the Saints line PRE Brees? It was bad. Aaron Brooks and Bauman were sacked 41 times. In comes Brees THE VERY NEXT SEASON and cuts that down to the TEENS. Is it the line or the qb? Its the qb. Same with Brady. The line is considered great. Brady gets hurt, enter Cassel. He is sacked 46 times. What happened to the great line? Its not the line, its Brady's ability to process the informatinon and get the ball out quickly. Ben would NEED to shake off defenders if he became a student of the game. The KEY is in your pre snap read. The correct Pre snap read can save you invaluable time in the pocket. You will know where the ball goes before you snap the ball. How do you make correct pre snap reads? FILM STUDY. You study the tendancies of the defenders and this will tip you off as to what they like to do in certain situations. Ben doesnt like to study much film (his own words) He said he likes to "look at the skeleton coverages" of the opponents in practice. He admits to watching little film. This is where he is not up to snuff. Look what this kid has accomplished WITHOUT being a student of the game! Just think of how good Ben could be if he put in the work like Manning and Brees? Ben wouldnt have to shrug off defenders, he would get the ball out before he was touched. This would not only PROLONG his career but it would make our lineman much happier. Ben is a 7 year Vet, how long do you think he will be elusive? How long do you think his body can take this pounding? How long do you think he can keep shrugging off would be tacklers? His style is a recipe for disaster and Cowher, Whiz, Arians and Tomlin are just sitting back watching it happen instead of COACHING HIM UP.

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 08:57 AM
The stats make my point. Sacks are for one reason and one reason only. SLOW TO PROCESS THE INFORMATION. Look how quickly Brees, Brady and Manning get the ball out. They process the info fast and get it out. It makes their line look great. How was the Saints line PRE Brees? It was bad. Aaron Brooks and Bauman were sacked 41 times. In comes Brees THE VERY NEXT SEASON and cuts that down to the TEENS. Is it the line or the qb? Its the qb. Same with Brady. The line is considered great. Brady gets hurt, enter Cassel. He is sacked 46 times. What happened to the great line? Its not the line, its Brady's ability to process the informatinon and get the ball out quickly. Ben would NEED to shake off defenders if he became a student of the game. The KEY is in your pre snap read. The correct Pre snap read can save you invaluable time in the pocket. You will know where the ball goes before you snap the ball. How do you make correct pre snap reads? FILM STUDY. You study the tendancies of the defenders and this will tip you off as to what they like to do in certain situations. Ben doesnt like to study much film (his own words) He said he likes to "look at the skeleton coverages" of the opponents in practice. He admits to watching little film. This is where he is not up to snuff. Look what this kid has accomplished WITHOUT being a student of the game! Just think of how good Ben could be if he put in the work like Manning and Brees? Ben wouldnt have to shrug off defenders, he would get the ball out before he was touched. This would not only PROLONG his career but it would make our lineman much happier. Ben is a 7 year Vet, how long do you think he will be elusive? How long do you think his body can take this pounding? How long do you think he can keep shrugging off would be tacklers? His style is a recipe for disaster and Cowher, Whiz, Arians and Tomlin are just sitting back watching it happen instead of COACHING HIM UP.

Some of your points make sense here. It is well thought out. The only problem is when you watch the game there are times when the line loses control early and Ben saves the day and avoids a sack. It is hard to measure these vs the ones where he holds it for too long. You made an excellent point with Cassel.

Getting sacked in the pocket is reasonable. There are some times were he is already out of the pocket where he should throw it away.

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 09:49 AM
Some of your points make sense here. It is well thought out. The only problem is when you watch the game there are times when the line loses control early and Ben saves the day and avoids a sack. It is hard to measure these vs the ones where he holds it for too long. You made an excellent point with Cassel.

Getting sacked in the pocket is reasonable. There are some times were he is already out of the pocket where he should throw it away.

I agree and I acknowledge your great points as well. You are one of the few guys I enjoy engaging in dialogue with, you know you stuff. A few other do too. I agree, sometimes when the occasional rusher penetrats the line, this is where Ben should throw the ball to the nearest receivers feet. Negative plays kill the offense. Also, Ben fumbled like 12 times in 08 and lost 9. This is due to fighting off would be sackers and getting the ball knocked out. He had 5 Turnover games against the Titans, Eagles and Giants that year and we were STILL in position to win those games. There is nothing wrong with trying too hard for your team but the quarterback position is a THINKING position. Joe Montana didnt have the best arm, the best legs but he did have one of the best MINDS. That was his edge. If Bens head is right, we arent touchable.

zulater
09-07-2010, 01:05 PM
I'm not going to argue that Ben creates a good number of the sacks himself, or at least contributes to them strongly. I also wont argue that Ben hasn't proved to be a real student of the game, and that I haven't wondered to what level he could advance his game if he put more time in in the film room.


But that said our offensive line has been sub par on just about every level since 2006. Max Starks isn't near the player that Marvel Smith or Wayne Gandy were in their prime. Justin Hartwig couldn't carry Jeff Hartings jock. Trai Essex doesn't belong in an NFL starting lineup, ever! Kemo is talented but maddeningly inconsistent. And Willie Colon, who for the past two seasons has graded out as our best offensive line,man is average or, possibly slighty above depending on the game we're talking about.( in other words inconsistent like Kemo) So you tell me as it's been constituted the past two seasons how the hell can anyone sit here and claim that the offensive line wasn't a major source o the problem? When 4/5th's of a given unit wouldn't start on an average team I would say that's problematic! I would also venture to say as good as Brady, Manning and the like are at recognizing defenses and getting out the ball in an expediant manner that they would be lucky to survive half a season behind these clowns. I'm sorry but I can find way too many plays where Starks, or colon, or Hartwig, or Trai simply get blown up right off the snap, often two or more together get beat clean on a given play. Well I'm sorry but no amount of film study prepares you for the jail breaks Ben has to contend with multiple times nearly every game.

kirklandrules
09-07-2010, 01:47 PM
I agree with Zulator. We've won despite these linemen and I'm hoping a new line coach/philosophy will do the trick. Pouncey will be awesome and I think he's already an upgrade based on how well he attacks on run plays. Adams may not be the best at pass plays, but he might be an upgrade in the running game. Hey, by the end of the year, this line could gel and become a good pass protection unit (not sure if Essex will allow that to happen, but he should just sit his fat azz down and become the fat speedbump we all hope and pray he can become).

And I absolutely agree that Manning and Brady would be nothing with an o-line like Ben has had. In fact, Manning has lost several play-offs and a super bowl game because he couldn't handle the heat. Brady has shown the same collapse against the Giants as well as regular season games he's pressured. I'll take the guy who can take repeated sacks and yet still have the nerve to guide a team to a winning super bowl drive knowing his line still sucks. I'll take that any day.

Downbylaw
09-07-2010, 02:37 PM
How do you explain Batch, Leftwich and Dixon playing behind that same line with NO sack issues?

zulater
09-07-2010, 03:10 PM
How do you explain Batch, Leftwich and Dixon playing behind that same line with NO sack issues?

How's that? According to the stats I see from preseason Dixon was sacked 3 times with 32 pass attempts, Leftwich was sacked twice with 24 listed pass attempts. Batch wasn't sacked ( 10 att) but he barely played, and when he did it was with strict intructions to take no risks.


That's 5 sacks in 56 attempts with the primary qb's that were being prepared to play this season, or one sack per 12 attempted pass plays ( 5 sacks in 61 dropbacks) and you don't consider that a "sack issue"?

steelcity1974
09-07-2010, 03:11 PM
As a team sport, nothing is ever just one player's fault or just one position's fault. But to blame sacks on the O line is probably fair, just like interceptions are the QBs fault even when the receiver is really to blame for one here or there. Ben probably causes more sacks than other QBs because of his willingness to hold onto the ball as long as possible, even when two guys are trying to drag him down (ala the Jacksonville game a couple years ago). But that's what makes him an elite QB. Without that, and thus without the sacks that are really on him and not the O line, he is average and we are still trying to win one for the thumb.

At the same time, I don't think you can rank an O line on sacks alone. I know that's just how the defult ranking is set, so it's not really a ranking of best to worst O line. I think it's fair to put our O line in the bottom third of the league...whether they are 31 or 21 doesn't really matter. But they definitely below average which is stating the obvious.

joeyssteelcurtain
09-07-2010, 03:25 PM
Our O-line does not suck. The sacks are on Ben. You will see. When Wiz and Grimm were here our line sucked then? I think not but we still had a sack problem. Know why? BEN

Yes ben does take some sacks but he also makes some real big plays when he holds on to the ball

MasterOfPuppets
09-07-2010, 03:41 PM
the way i see it, if you've got 4 seconds or more to throw the ball and you get sacked, thats the qb's fault. i think ben gets the blame for 40% or so of the sacks. with ben you just gotta take the bad with the good.

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 03:46 PM
But that said our offensive line has been sub par on just about every level since 2006. Max Starks isn't near the player that Marvel Smith or Wayne Gandy were in their prime. Justin Hartwig couldn't carry Jeff Hartings jock. Trai Essex doesn't belong in an NFL starting lineup, ever! Kemo is talented but maddeningly inconsistent. And Willie Colon, who for the past two seasons has graded out as our best offensive line,man is average or, possibly slighty above depending on the game we're talking about.( in other words inconsistent like Kemo) So you tell me as it's been constituted the past two seasons how the hell can anyone sit here and claim that the offensive line wasn't a major source o the problem?

You make some good points here. I must say if you read Down's post, it is pretty good and well thought out...especially with Matt Cassell. Besides the sack to QB hit ratio, something else that would be helpful is a separation of sacks by time. If a sack takes 7 seconds, that is not the O-line's fault. That is a coverage sack (or QB error).

I'm excited about Pouncey because I see how much better he makes the line. I was looking at that 3rd preseason game. The middle of the line was good with Pouncey in there. When Leftwich came in, they left the other starters alone and brought in Hartwig. Now the interior was collapsing often. As Hartwig's man beats him and he turns to try to stop him, this opens up a hole in the middle where Kemo or Essex' man can run. There was a huge difference.

How do you explain Batch, Leftwich and Dixon playing behind that same line with NO sack issues?

When Hartwig was in there with Leftwich there were problems. Dixon was lucky enough to play behind Pouncey (or Legursky) the whole time (first with second team then in the third game and fourth games he was behind Pouncey wen Pouncey was moved to first team). The times when he was playing behind Legursky, they were running it a ridiculous amount of times.

At the same time, you have a point that Leftwich did throw the ball away and Dixon was able to scramble to avoid sacks.

We have a fine experiment here. Ben won't be there for the first games so we will be able to see whether the sack numbers go down. Ben averages about 3 per game. I believe Leftwich would have had 3-4 per game and I think Dixon will have 2-3 per game (because Pouncey).

I think you are both right. I saw Ben take unnecessary sacks in that last preseason game. But I also see the times when he improvises and avoid an early sack. Leftwich and Dixon will avoid the late sacks but will not be good enough to improvise and make the right decision on the early sacks.

That said, he must get his sack to QB hit ratio down. There is no denying this. If he is out of the pocket and the play is taking too long and he senses a sack, throw it away. The problem is we won't know how many of his great passes come after a regular QB would have thrown it away.

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 03:49 PM
the way i see it, if you've got 4 seconds or more to throw the ball and you get sacked, thats the qb's fault. i think ben gets the blame for 40% or so of the sacks. with ben you just gotta take the bad with the good.

I agree. If they held them off 5 seconds. They did their job.

Down has an excellent point when he explains a bunch of the sacks recorded are Ben's fault.

He is off the mark when he misses that:
-Ben saves some sacks not recorded that would have been with another QB
-Ben is a great QB (he says Ben is only good and nothing special)
-The line has problems (he says no...all teams have same problems)

The interesting this is the line will likely improve this year with Pouncey. They will be better passing and running. Their improvement running will help with passing as it will slow the pass rush.

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 04:14 PM
The funny thing is I feel bad for Hartwig but Carolina decided to get rid of him for a reason. They knew what we know now...He is below par.

I don't think Starks is so bad. I think he is about average but since the inside breaks down with the guard, he has to cheat that way and then can get beat on the outside. It is a unit. Hopefully Pouncey helps both guards and this in turn allows the tackles to feel comfortable pushing their player beyond the QB (phonebooth...sometimes needed). You cant do this when the middle has broken down.

I'm personally not a big Kemo fan.

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 04:20 PM
Oh...by the way, the run stats are there. They are not so easy to analyze though.

MasterOfPuppets
09-07-2010, 04:33 PM
Which NFL Quarterbacks Hold The Ball Too Long?
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/09/23/which-quarterbacks-hold-the-ball-too-long/

But while these stats will become more useful as the season moves along, it's still worth sharing them, partly to note who doesn't show up on the top 10 or the bottom 10. For all the talk about Roethlisberger's tendency to hold the ball forever, he ranks in the middle of the pack with an average time of sack of 2.9 seconds, which ranks 19th out of the 33 quarterbacks who have been sacked this season (wide receiver Antwaan Randle El was sacked, but I'm not counting him since it was a gadget play).

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 04:46 PM
Which NFL Quarterbacks Hold The Ball Too Long?
http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/09/23/which-quarterbacks-hold-the-ball-too-long/

I admire what he is trying to do but I have 2 thoughts:

1. Where is the final report for the whole season?
2. He should have produced 2 sets of numbers...first hit and actual sack. This doesn't tell you whether Ben holds on to the ball too long. It is flawed. Sure he is talented at avoiding the first hit but maybe after avoiding that first hit, he should THEN throw it away. So Ben didn't show up on the list of guys who got sacked as soon as they are first hit. If they used actual sack times, I'm sure Ben would be in the top 3 for holding on to it the longest. He has the numbers. Why hide it?

SteelKnight
09-07-2010, 08:17 PM
Wow. I'm starting to understand the Rushing stats now. Did you guys know we were 3rd in the league in Rush power up the center? We were 16th to the right and 17th to the left.

Rush Pwr = Percentage of rushes on 3rd or 4th down with 2 or fewer yards to go that achieved a first down or TD. Also includes rushes on 1st-and-goal and 2nd-and-goal from the opponent's 2-yard line or closer.

When we went up the center with 2 yards or less we had an 88% chance of completing the task (1st down or TD). (as per Rush power rules).

Interesting.