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tony hipchest
09-08-2010, 02:08 PM
theres an excersize i did along with quite a bit of research, and i forgot which thread i placed it in.

a great defense will always tell an offense "score us 17 points and we will win you the game." the steelers DEFENSE last year gave up 16.75 points per game.

now throw out field goals. after all, they are special team points scored with a kicker against the defenses special teams unit.

i look at a fg as an offensive failure to score a td and the defense preventing a score.

last year, the steelers defense allowed just 2 or fewer TD's in 12 of its 16 games. = 75%

last year the steelers offense scored 2 or more TD's in 8 of its 16 games. = 50%

now you tell me which unit underpreformed. :hunch:

Downbylaw
09-08-2010, 02:13 PM
I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY and have said so MANY times!! BRAVO BRAVO!!!1

SteelKnight
09-08-2010, 02:18 PM
Reasonable...

One reason why it is easy to agree to get rid of FGs is because we led in time of possession. I could see how it might be important if a defense is weak, allows the other offense to take its time driving, using up all the time and they score FGs (if it's a lot). But if the O has TOP, there is no excuse.

Still, the reason you hear a lot about the D failing is we are not used to being average in pass D. If we were average in everything we wouldn't make the playoffs. Only the top 12 teams make the playoffs so having a stat being 16th in pass defense is not what we expect from our D. At least they were a better when it came to points. not the worst...just not what we usually expect.

Giving yardage (as a D without as many points) just affects things like field position. If you can give your O some short fields then they don't have to work as hard to complete a drive. You increase you chance of getting points before a drive is derailed.

If anyone has a STAT on the offense's average field position start, please submit it. I'm tired. That makes a difference.

SteelKnight
09-08-2010, 03:10 PM
Just so you know, the Steelers PPG was 12th in the league.

I think we got used to the luxury of the defense sometimes providing short fields and sometimes getting turnovers which probably wasn't happening last year.

If you pin the defense to their 10 because you drove well then punted then the defense allows them to drive all the way to the 45 (only 35 yards) then punt it to you where you are back at your 15, that is not the same as an excellent D that stops them after 0 or maybe 1 first down and forces them to punt and get you the ball back at the 50 yard line. In both cases the defense allowed no points and if you are just glancing at stats, you might say "why does 35 more passing yards hurt if no points were allowed?" but they are two totally different defenses. One provides you with excellent field position.

SteelKnight
09-08-2010, 06:21 PM
Some of these arguments we have are silly. Some games it was the offense's fault and some the defense's fault.

For example, during the 5 game stretch, I'm going to say 2 games were the fault of the offense (Cincy and Cleveland), 2 games te fault of the defense (KC and Oakand) and one game I'm blaming Dixon (Ravens).
I appreciate wat Dixon did on short notice but the kind of pick he threw guaranteed the loss in OT.

Did Arians or ST make the Steelers defense give up 21 points in the fourth quater against the Raider? No

For the Chiefs game, even though there was the opening KO TD and the int. ran back to the 8(3rd), the defense didn't play well towards the end and cost the Steelers the game. Sure they were under pressure because of those 2 things but they choked.

If they step up in either of those 2 games, we make the playoffs.

Both sides of the ball (and ST) have things to fix...I'm glad Troy is back.

SteelKnight
09-08-2010, 06:29 PM
I also remember other times where the defense just choked...like we said STATS don't show everything. I remember them choking against the Bengals. Yes. It's nice not to have to be in those situations but they choked. If they step up for 1 play, we win.

scsteeler
09-08-2010, 06:34 PM
The Offensive underperformed when it came down to scoring TD's inside the 20 yard line something that was almost automatic at one time with the Steelers and this is where I think a viable run game will come into play.

If Redman can get those 3 & 4 yard carries in the Red Zone and punch it in at the 1 yard line we will be fine. Last year the Steelers move the ball great until they got inside the 20.

I am excited that Dixon will force our offense to change to one that will rely more or the run now.

MasterOfPuppets
09-08-2010, 06:45 PM
the steelers converted 3rd down 39% of the time... compare that to some of the better offenses in the league...

colts - 49%
saints - 45%
packers - 47%
vikings - 45%

on defense the steelers gave up 3rd down 42 % of the time

jets - 32%
packers 36%
vikings 34 %
saints - 38%
colts - 45%

steeltheone
09-08-2010, 06:47 PM
I am excited that Dixon will force our offense to change to one that will rely more or the run now.

Dixon will be the one doing the running. Running QB'S win no championships.

SteelKnight
09-08-2010, 06:50 PM
I keep trying to think how to say what I feel. I think this might cover it.

There were several times last year where the defense choked. There were times where we said forget about stats, ranking, what put us in this position, etc. All you have to do is come through on this drive (or even play) and we win...and they choked.

Going back later and saying they shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place misses the point. What if there is a game where the Steelers are down 28-27 in FG range with 2 minutes to go and they throw a pick. That means the offense choked and lost the game. We don't go back and say 27 points should have been enough and the defense and ST shouldn't have allowed 28 points. We don't talk about how their stats add up overall. The bottom line is they were in position to win...a chance to play like their rep and they choked.

The same can be said of the defense. tere were times where if they had played like a top 5 defense whe would have won...they just joked...no denying it. I appreciate that they had played well in other parts of the game and they shouldn't have been in that situation. That being said...they choked.

Kobe Bryant doesn't miss the final shot being wide open then complain that he had 30 points already. He would accept that he choked.

Now if you are saying it was because they were tired...fine. I think it was more because Troy and maybe Smith were gone but all the talk from the team is hoopla to save face because they can't overemphasize the importance of one man. To me, the difference is with Troy in there...at those big moments, we would not have choked.

SteelKnight
09-08-2010, 06:59 PM
the steelers converted 3rd down 39% of the time... compare that to some of the better offenses in the league...

colts - 49%
saints - 45%
packers - 47%
vikings - 45%

on defense the steelers gave up 3rd down 42 % of the time

jets - 32%
packers 36%
vikings 34 %
saints - 38%
colts - 45%

Both statistics must be judged in context of first downs. For example, we had way more first downs (9th in league) last year tan the year before. If you get some first downs on first or second down, you can keep a drive going. For defense we were 4th in allowing the least 1st downs.

Either way, both sides of the ball needed work at different times but I distinctly remember the defense choking at certain times. I'd like to see the stat for conversions etc. in the fouth quarter when the pressure was on in the critical drives.

That defensive 42% places us 28th in the league...more evidence of choking. With critical drives in the 4th quarter it was probably 60%. lol

Anyway, I think it is a good stat we need to work on.

scsteeler
09-08-2010, 07:05 PM
I am excited that Dixon will force our offense to change to one that will rely more or the run now.

Dixon will be the one doing the running. Running QB'S win no championships.

We don't need him to win a championship just win 2 of the next 4.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 12:13 AM
Fun arguing with you guys. The new season is upon us. I'm excited about the Saits Vikings game although it won't be the same without Sidney Rice.

Our New Steelers will be playing this weekend and hopefully they've been reading our posts and they've fixed all the things we've complained about on Offense/Defense and ST.

I'm done talking about the '09 Steelers and will be focusing on the '10 Steelers. Past is the past.

Good luck everyone. I feel like we will win.

The Ravens play the Jets...should be good although Ravens should beat the overrated Jets. Arrogant Rex was talking but can Sanchez back it up.

I can't believe I will be rooting for the Patriots ...but at least it is against the Bengals.

tony hipchest
09-09-2010, 12:29 AM
That defensive 42% places us 28th in the league...more evidence of choking.


Anyway, I think it is a good stat we need to work on.

:doh: its not evidence of "choking" :dang:

it is evidence of getting beat.

again, this is another HUGE misconception. this isnt something you have to "work on" fixing.

this is a situation where you plug in a healthy troy and smith and just keep on keepin on.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 01:14 AM
:doh: its not evidence of "choking" :dang:

it is evidence of getting beat.

again, this is another HUGE misconception. this isnt something you have to "work on" fixing.

this is a situation where you plug in a healthy troy and smith and just keep on keepin on.

We disagree about the choke part but we both agree a healthy Troy and Smith will help it. Like I said there were times it came down to stopping the opponent on key drives or even key plays and they choked. Had they come through, we win and everyone is happy. Arguing about whether they should have been in that position in the first place is besides the point. Pressure time...come through or not.

At this point, I don't think you are trying to appreciate what I am saying so we are practicing futility.

If you play video games, I can give a good example but I'll hold off if you are one of those older guys that think you are too manly for videogames. lol

MasterOfPuppets
09-09-2010, 01:20 AM
for the most part last year the defense played great for the first 50 minutes or so. they just had to many drives where they gave up huge 3rd and 10 - 20's... and a few 4th downs at the end of games (bengals) :banging:

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 01:22 AM
:doh: its not evidence of "choking" :dang:

it is evidence of getting beat.

again, this is another HUGE misconception. this isnt something you have to "work on" fixing.

this is a situation where you plug in a healthy troy and smith and just keep on keepin on.

Just so you know...since you added melodramatic icons...lol the "work on" was in reference to third downs overall (including offense and defense). I actually went back and added the placement of defense once I looked it up.

Of course I think the defense will be better with Troy. What we were arguing before is how they played without Troy. You seem to think they played good enough and it was all the offense's fault. I disagree. I think the team had problems in all three phases. I think the defense without Troy choked on several critical drives. With Troy, I think they will be better...unless they become tired from Arians passing...lol. Whatever.

The funny thing is I really added it at the end of the post so someone doesn't come arguing with me that I said we don't need to work on these things...don't look so deep into the words "work on"...think "fix" for goodness sake...we really need to start this season.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 01:32 AM
for the most part last year the defense played great for the first 50 minutes or so. they just had to many drives where they gave up huge 3rd and 10 - 20's... and a few 4th downs at the end of games (bengals) :banging:

Yeah...I still remember the Justin Leonard play...

Our arguing is nitpicking. We all believe we will be better with Troy so who cares. I just remember at least 3 times (maybe more) where I said If the defense can come through on this drive, we win...and they couldn't. With Troy...different story.

Field position is important too. We can't do a bend but not break with the pass defense, finish 16th then say we didn't allow many points.

It is hard to sustain a drive. Eventually something will happen so the shorter the field, the better. The idea is score before you lose momentum of that drive. It's a lot easier starting at your 45 tan it is starting at your 10.

Good teams get some INTs. Hopefully that is better with Troy back. He had 3 last year in the few games he played. If we had Daren Sharper last year, we could have gone to the Superbowl. lol

MasterOfPuppets
09-09-2010, 01:44 AM
there's no doubt arians offense shit the bed against some of the worst defenses in the league. 6 points against a browns defense that had like 6 backups starting ? :doh:

tony hipchest
09-09-2010, 02:22 AM
We disagree about the choke part but we both agree a healthy Troy and Smith will help it. Like I said there were times it came down to stopping the opponent on key drives or even key plays and they choked. Had they come through, we win and everyone is happy. Arguing about whether they should have been in that position in the first place is besides the point. Pressure time...come through or not.

At this point, I don't think you are trying to appreciate what I am saying so we are practicing futility.

If you play video games, I can give a good example but I'll hold off if you are one of those older guys that think you are too manly for videogames. lol

no, im not a gamer. i kinda gave that up whe i realized i could plug my flesh joystick into a girls "x-box".

do i think rookie joe burnett choked by dropping an easy int vs the raiders?

no.

there was no pressure. he didnt know the ball was coming to him. he didnt know he could ice the game.

in a split second, he saw his 1st opportunity for an int in a real NFL game and he simply took his eyes off the ball.

he coulda made the play to win a game but he didnt. = different from choking.

i ask you this... do you think joey porter choked against the patriots in the 2001 afcc game?

if so, why?

i agree that pourous games were equally attributed to the offensive and special teams shortcomings, along with the defense missing 2 of its crucial components.

does anyone ever wonder why offensive and ST coaching staff was fired, but the defensive staff left intact?

the proof is in the pudding. :tap:

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 04:15 AM
i agree that pourous games were equally attributed to the offensive and special teams shortcomings, along with the defense missing 2 of its crucial components.

does anyone ever wonder why offensive and ST coaching staff was fired, but the defensive staff left intact?

the proof is in the pudding. :tap:

I think we are in close agreement. I just feel that ignoring whatever else was done in the game and just focusing on stopping critical drives, there were times in the 4th quarter where the defense choked. By that I mean if they played well and got the stop, we win the game. If you don't see it that way there we'll be no convincing you. Everyone dreams for the big moment...it's what you do in that moment that defines choking.

I have a feeling you even see what I mean but are being ultra sensitive to the defensive players' feelings.

For the Raiders, I'm referring to all 21 points. If I would normally expect the person to make the play or the person is highly capable of making the play, I would call it choking. If not, then probably not.

Of course they are not going to fire Lebeau. Everyone knows it was because Troy was gone. Even so, lebeau as too much stature to be fired and the assistants like Butler are all doing a fine job. I know the ST and O-line had problems. The only place we disagree is I say the Troy-less D also had problems and didn't come through on several occasions.
Anyway, let's find a way to wrap this up. The new season is starting.

ricardisimo
09-09-2010, 05:37 AM
Not sure if this is an appropriate comment to make here, but I found it very odd that the people who rushed to the defense of Arians (always making sure to lump him in with the "Front Office" as a whole) were quick to bag on LeBeau and his unit. Never made sense to me. LeBeau's name and historic consistency should carry enough cred to weather a bad year, IMHO.

That said, Steeler D lost some push up front (Smith) and it's Numero Uno on the back end (Troy)... and it showed. We were slower to get to the QB, especially on 3rd downs, and we gave up some painfully long plays at painfully bad moments late in games. Not good times, although given the importance of those two players, it's astounding we didn't do worse.

I think Ziggy will give us some insurance should Smith or Keisel go down, so we're OK there. However, we still have squat if Troy goes down again, which is a problem. Given the team's resignation on Urbik and the near-miss that is Tony Hills, I'm curious to see how the selection of a possibly redundant linebacker in this year's 2nd round is going to square with the obvious lack of quality starters and depth in the secondary. Know what I mean?

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 07:22 AM
I have maintained since last year that despite the injuries the defense held their own. Our offense is SOOOOOO frickin frustrating and inconsistent it makes me want to scream. There is NO WAY, we should have close games with our D. No way.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 01:01 PM
That said, Steeler D lost some push up front (Smith) and it's Numero Uno on the back end (Troy)... and it showed. We were slower to get to the QB, especially on 3rd downs, and we gave up some painfully long plays at painfully bad moments late in games. Not good times, although given the importance of those two players, it's astounding we didn't do worse.



Thanks for actually seeing that the defense did make some painful mistakes late. I don't know how one can argue against this. You watch, think if they can stop ere we win, they don't, pain...lol

Gay way bad all season and many have said it was because Troy was gone because he looked good the year before. I don't care. Troy is back and he is no longer starting. Problem solved.

With a tighter secondary, Harrison can be magical again.

It was one of those seasons with many blown leads. It's not always like that. Sometimes when you play games, the opponent cleans your clock from the beginning and that's that. When leads are blown in the 4th quarter, you can't help but to notice the defense.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 01:09 PM
I have maintained since last year that despite the injuries the defense held their own. Our offense is SOOOOOO frickin frustrating and inconsistent it makes me want to scream. There is NO WAY, we should have close games with our D. No way.

Sure...it was a 5th place D who was average (16th) at pass D but great at stopping points. Bend but don't break.

When they get great as pass D again, we will win the battle of field position and the offense will have shorter drives to deal with. It is easier if you give your offense some short fields. Some INTs would help. Drives always derail. The goal is to score before the momentum is broken and the drive derails. You would notice if they had to go 200 yards, some of these 80 yard drives (long drives) would even derail. Maybe they would go 143 and then some penalty or they just get stopped. Tighter defense helps field position.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 02:46 PM
The other thing is the defense never felt like a top 5 defense without Troy. The statistics are skewed. I'm sure if you take out the games where Troy played and the two Cleveland games, you'll get entirely different averages etc. Excellent play in certain games made the overall season look good for them but ...nah...

If I have some time later I might tackle it.

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 03:53 PM
Defense looked solid to me in most games until the 4th. Take the Vikings game, the offense couldnt do crap, so the defense took it upon themselves to get two tds and win the game.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 04:04 PM
Defense looked solid to me in most games until the 4th. Take the Vikings game, the offense couldnt do crap, so the defense took it upon themselves to get two tds and win the game.

Yeah..."until the 4th" is the key thing. Like I said, the raven defense spent more time on the field and never complained. We spent more time on the field in '08 (and some other seasons) and never complained of being tired. If it is shown that more time was spent in 4th Q, that doesn't prove anything. If that's when they start sucking and can't get the other team off the field, of course more time will be spent there. Any time a D is playing badly and the other team's offense isn't an excellent passing offense TOP for that team will go up.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 04:06 PM
I'd be willing to do the stats if you and tony have a real interest in it but if you are just going to find a way to ignore them, why should I bother? I'm debating. It sounds like you guys are set that the defense was awesome.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 04:09 PM
...

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-09-2010, 04:20 PM
no, im not a gamer. i kinda gave that up whe i realized i could plug my flesh joystick into a girls "x-box".

You know, being able to one, does not preclude the possibility of the other. I slip my joystick into my wife's X-Box all the time, sometimes, while playing with the electrionic type of joystick too....:chuckle:

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 04:59 PM
OK. Here is how we did without Troy's 5 games and the one other Cleveland game.


Defense rank 15th (yards/game) -326.7y/g

First downs per game 14th - 18.5/g

Pass defense 25th -235.4y/g

Run defense 4th -91.3y/g


For turnovers, I don't know where the defense ranks without Troy because I'm not going to calculate every team but it must be LOW. The calculation prorated came out to 17.6 turnover per the season. By contrast, the top team in interceptions (GB-30) had 40 TOs last year. Half of this D's turnovers came with Troy in the game.

Please stop saying the defense was great without Troy...please. The only thing that was great was the run defense. If it were not for that, the overall defense would be even lower than 15th.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 05:06 PM
You know, being able to one, does not preclude the possibility of the other. I slip my joystick into my wife's X-Box all the time, sometimes, while playing with the electrionic type of joystick too....:chuckle:

Yeah...you know to each his own. Tony sounds cool. I don't like those insecure guys who have no hand eye coordination so they act like they are better than someone else because someone does something in ADDITION to what they do. You can enjoy women, play videogames, do productive work, play fantasy football AND still be a Steeler fan. lol

I enjoy video games ...which I think is cool because when I retire ages from now I'll have something fun to do besides reading a book and watching TV...lol I wish I had the skills of some of these kids. lol
:thumbsup:

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 05:18 PM
OK. Here is how we did without Troy's 5 games and the one other Cleveland game.


Defense rank 15th (yards/game) -326.7y/g

First downs per game 14th - 18.5/g

Pass defense 25th -235.4y/g

Run defense 4th -91.3y/g


For turnovers, I don't know where the defense ranks without Troy because I'm not going to calculate every team but it must be LOW. The calculation prorated came out to 17.6 turnover per the season. By contrast, the top team in interceptions (GB-30) had 40 TOs last year. Half of this D's turnovers came with Troy in the game.

Please stop saying the defense was great without Troy...please. The only thing that was great was the run defense. If it were not for that, the overall defense would be even lower than 15th.

Troy is the best safety in the NFL of course things wont be the same without him. Tyrone Carter? OMG The problem was the inconsistent offense and not the D.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 05:30 PM
OK for turnover I painstakingly went through each game log. It is only the final Miami game that makes it seem respectable were they got 3 interceptions (of their 5 from the whole season). To be fair, i won't remove this game but you guys know the deal. After game 16, they had 2 interceptions in games where Troy did not play (or other Cleveland game).

Prorated:

Interception rank: Tied for LAST -8 (so lucky for that Miami game or they would be last for sure.

Fumble Recoveries rank: 24th -9.6

These are just not good numbers...nope.

Turnovers help with field position.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 05:36 PM
Troy is the best safety in the NFL of course things wont be the same without him. Tyrone Carter? OMG The problem was the inconsistent offense and not the D.

Yeah but Tony has been arguing like the Defense held their own without Troy. Without Troy and that one Cleveland game, they really were no good. Seriously. I added a post for turnovers...last for INTs and 24th for fumbles is not good either.

Thank God Troy is back.

We can play games with taking away FGs etc. but putting 23 ppg on the board is still 12th in the league. Te ST is not the offense's fault either. Sure. There were some games where they were unproductive but they still don't expect the defense to lose 5 4th quarter leads.

If Troy was out for the whole season there would be no denying these stats. Even if Tony doesn't believe. I don't care. I put the hard work in to crunch them and I didn't cheat.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 05:49 PM
Our prorated of 8 INTs without troy is horrendous but I am still scratching my head at how GB had 30 INTs. Damn. Same with Buffalo with 28. New Orleans doesn't surprise me with 26 because I knew Sharper himself had a lot.

Let's go after those GB CBs in free agency...lol

This may be why the Steelers have not resigned Ike Yet. They probably would like to go in the direction of more INTs.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 06:07 PM
Hey Down or Tony...I'm exhausted. Could either of you guys find statistics on average starting field position for the offense and compare it to the other NFL teams and maybe the previous year?

My hunch is field position was an issue if they had several long drives but kept choking in the Red Zone. Sometimes that's just from poor Red Zone plays but sometimes it is from a long drive coincidentally losing momentum and derailing.

I believe if we provide shorter fields for the offense, more of those drives will result in a score before they derail. This is a hunch looking at some numbers (e.g. first downs). I'd like to see if the stats support it or not.

Like I said...all drives will lose momentum. The idea is to score before that happens. It's easier with a shorter field. Shorter fields come from turnovers and tight defense (not bend but don't break, give as many pass yards as they want defense).

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 06:21 PM
OK for turnover I painstakingly went through each game log. It is only the final Miami game that makes it seem respectable were they got 3 interceptions (of their 5 from the whole season). To be fair, i won't remove this game but you guys know the deal. After game 16, they had 2 interceptions in games where Troy did not play (or other Cleveland game).

Prorated:

Interception rank: Tied for LAST -8 (so lucky for that Miami game or they would be last for sure.

Fumble Recoveries rank: 24th -9.6

These are just not good numbers...nope.

Turnovers help with field position.

Its the Lebeau scheme. Zone blitz. Its designed to get pressure on the qb and get sacks. We get fumbles but ints only come when you are in the right place at the right time.

tony hipchest
09-09-2010, 06:30 PM
Yeah but Tony has been arguing like the Defense held their own without Troy.

its a miracle they were as good as they were w/o troy and smith. cut the 8 returns for td's in half and we are probably in the playoffs with the #3 seed.

a healthy troy and smith and we are the #1 or #2 seed.

but just so everyone is clear what i think about troy, i will share this little article i wrote after the game 2 loss vs the bears last year. (i basically predicted how the season would go w/o him).

Troy Polamalu single handedly wins games...

...figuratively and literally. one only needs to look at the miracle one handed interception last week vs. tennessee, or the amazing flying, diving, one handed, magnet grab vs. the chargers last year.

was it pele who scored the infamous miracle score in world cup soccer that was dubiously called the "hand of God" for a win? i think troy has become the nfl's version of "the hand of God"

when an amazing play needs to happen during crunch time in the playoffs, look no further than troy vs. the colts (highway robbery doesnt negate a spectacular play) or last year vs. the ravens to ice the game.

after a great 1st half vs. tennessee, i have heard more talking heads than ever refer to troy as the most dominant defender in football. some thought it would be a devastating blow to lose him for even a short period. others thought dick lebeau always finds a way to scheme his way around the absence of a good player and the steelers would just keep on keeping on. it seems to be closer to the former

polamalu made the trip to chicago and said he was excited to watch the defense play. im not sure if it was a bizarre joke but he very humbly said, that perhaps they may even play better without him (as if he takes to many risks, or commits too many penalties).

troy and ben are opposite sides of the same coin. without them we are still a good team, but with them we are great. this proves true in the first loss of the 09 season.

he was seen wincing in pain or disgust, for both of the chicago scores in which his back-up, his position, was the primary defender. i'd like to think it was in pain. the pain of not being out there to help his band of brothers win.

greg olsen or johnny knox vs. tyrone carter is simply too favorable of a matchup for any offense not to exploit. troy is faster than either of those guys and perhaps bats down a ball or baits jay cutler into another miracle int.

there is no way any team controls and drives the ball 97 yds down the field with so many plays with polamalu on the field. thats just too many chances a team doesnt get with him in the game. either a mistake is made, such as a sack or interception, or a 3rd down isnt converted.

no that the game is firmly checked into the "L" column, i can look back and not place blame, but appreciate what a great player we have, and the impact it has with him not being on the field.

if teams handed out flat, deflated, loser "gameballs", i would give it to troy.

he didnt even have to make the trip.


steelers w/ troy = 4-1
steelers w/o troy = 5-6

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 06:37 PM
Yeah but Tony has been arguing like the Defense held their own without Troy. Without Troy and that one Cleveland game, they really were no good. Seriously. I added a post for turnovers...last for INTs and 24th for fumbles is not good either.

Thank God Troy is back.


We can play games with taking away FGs etc. but putting 23 ppg on the board is still 12th in the league. Te ST is not the offense's fault either. Sure. There were some games where they were unproductive but they still don't expect the defense to lose 5 4th quarter leads.


If Troy was out for the whole season there would be no denying these stats. Even if Tony doesn't believe. I don't care. I put the hard work in to crunch them and I didn't cheat.


Not any good? They held Cleveland to 13 points. Here is where not watching the game hurts you. In fact how did you not watch this game? It was on national Tv. What you dont mention is the WEATHER. It was very cold and had a 25mph wind. Having said that the defense did their jobs. I was ticked off at Keisell as they kept running cribbs to his side in the wildkat and he was getting huge chunks. They ran the ball on us very well. Troy being there wouldnt have mattered. We needed Aaron Smith for that game. So you are telling me that the OFFENSES TWO FGS is up to snuff? Incredible.

If the offense had scored Tds instead of Fgs then we wouldnt have lost 4th quarter leads. Had the offense chewed up some clock and put together some long drives perhaps the defense wouldnt have been tired in the 4th. You cant get around the fact that ALL breakdowns happened in the 4th. That is a sign of fatigue .

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 06:41 PM
steelers w/ troy = 4-1
steelers w/o troy = 5-6

Now we are agreeing on things. We both think the offense and ST had issues ...just so you know. You are just in support of the 15th rank, 25th rank pass defense, last INTs, 24th in fumble rec. blow 5 fourth quarter leads Troy-less defense than I am my friend. lol

If any of the 3 (off, def, or ST) played better, we would have been in the playoffs. Say for example if the defense had just blown 4 fourth quater leads, we would have been golden. lol

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 06:42 PM
Our prorated of 8 INTs without troy is horrendous but I am still scratching my head at how GB had 30 INTs. Damn. Same with Buffalo with 28. New Orleans doesn't surprise me with 26 because I knew Sharper himself had a lot.

Let's go after those GB CBs in free agency...lol

This may be why the Steelers have not resigned Ike Yet. They probably would like to go in the direction of more INTs.

Because as I stated before, its the SCHEME. Green Bay plays lost of man defense. We play primarily zone. The Green Bay corners would be no good in a zone. Every good DB will tell you that they prefer to play man to man. Zone limits a DB. Not to mention our play 14 yards off the receiver Cover 3 defense. Troy gets the most picks because he gets to freelance i.e he plays a lot of man free. Its obvious you dont understand schemes.

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 06:43 PM
Now we are agreeing on things. We both think the offense and ST had issues ...just so you know. You are just in support of the 15th rank, 25th rank pass defense, last INTs, 24th in fumble rec. blow 5 fourth quarter leads Troy-less defense than I am my friend. lol

If any of the 3 (off, def, or ST) played better, we would have been in the playoffs. Say for example if the defense had just blown 4 fourth quater leads, we would have been golden. lol

Or if Ben plays vs the Ravens we are in as well.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 06:45 PM
Not any good? They held Cleveland to 13 points. Here is where not watching the game hurts you. In fact how did you not watch this game? It was on national Tv. What you dont mention is the WEATHER. It was very cold and had a 25mph wind. Having said that the defense did their jobs. I was ticked off at Keisell as they kept running cribbs to his side in the wildkat and he was getting huge chunks. They ran the ball on us very well. Troy being there wouldnt have mattered. We needed Aaron Smith for that game. So you are telling me that the OFFENSES TWO FGS is up to snuff? Incredible.

If the offense had scored Tds instead of Fgs then we wouldnt have lost 4th quarter leads. Had the offense chewed up some clock and put together some long drives perhaps the defense wouldnt have been tired in the 4th. You cant get around the fact that ALL breakdowns happened in the 4th. That is a sign of fatigue .

:blah::blah::blah: You are reading incorrectly. I saw the game. I never said I didn't see that game. I admitted there were some games where the offense did not come through but 23 ppg is still #12 in NFL. If you paid attention, I never said they didn't do well against Cleveland...in fact, the Cleveland game was removed from the analysis along with the Troy games (Troy played in one Cle game so both are excluded).

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 06:47 PM
Or if Ben plays vs the Ravens we are in as well.

WTF!? A positive Ben comment from Down?

Anything would have been fine. If Sweed doesn't drop that pass at Cincy, we win the game AND win the division at 10-6 and go to the playoffs.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 06:50 PM
Because as I stated before, its the SCHEME. Green Bay plays lost of man defense. We play primarily zone. The Green Bay corners would be no good in a zone. Every good DB will tell you that they prefer to play man to man. Zone limits a DB. Not to mention our play 14 yards off the receiver Cover 3 defense. Troy gets the most picks because he gets to freelance i.e he plays a lot of man free. Its obvious you dont understand schemes.

I'm no football expert. I'm always learning...always. It's not my life...just a game.

I don't know if what I read about you is true but I think I'm done arguing with you.
:drink:

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 07:47 PM
:blah::blah::blah: You are reading incorrectly. I saw the game. I never said I didn't see that game. I admitted there were some games where the offense did not come through but 23 ppg is still #12 in NFL. If you paid attention, I never said they didn't do well against Cleveland...in fact, the Cleveland game was removed from the analysis along with the Troy games (Troy played in one Cle game so both are excluded).

Originally Posted by SteelKnight
Yeah but Tony has been arguing like the Defense held their own without Troy. Without Troy and that one Cleveland game, they really were no good. Seriously. I added a post for turnovers...last for INTs and 24th for fumbles is not good either.

How am I reading this wrong? YOU INCLUDED Cleveland. You were wrong, the D held them to 13 points. Maybe you were trying to say "The defense sucked without Troy except for that one Cleveland game". I think thats it. Poor wording but it happens.

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 07:50 PM
WTF!? A positive Ben comment from Down?

Anything would have been fine. If Sweed doesn't drop that pass at Cincy, we win the game AND win the division at 10-6 and go to the playoffs.

Pay attention. Ben is good. I just dont think he is elite. I always say positive things about Ben. You obviously didnt see that Cincy game (sigh). It should have never came to that Sweed drop. Ben underthrew THREE TD passes that day. One to Hines, One to Tone and one to Wallace that he caught but the ball was thrown so poorly it lead him out of bounds. Had we converted on those 3 TDs, the Limas drop wouldnt matter. Those are the things you SEE when you actually watch the games. Those intangibles dont show up in the box score. :wave:

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 07:56 PM
I'm no football expert. I'm always learning...always. It's not my life...just a game.

I don't know if what I read about you is true but I think I'm done arguing with you.
:drink:

Shall I show you where you have said that before in the past? No need to get upset but the lack of picks are a direct result of scheme. You are criticizing DBs without having knowledge of what they are doing and why they are doing it. We play a lot of cover 2 and 3. Cover 2- Safeties deep and corners up in the flats. Cover 3, Troy helps in run support (roams), Clark deep middle and both Corners have a 1/3 of the field to cover. It is extremely hard to get picks in a zone because the receivers sit down in the holes of that zone.

Downbylaw
09-09-2010, 07:58 PM
I'm no football expert. I'm always learning...always. It's not my life...just a game.

I don't know if what I read about you is true but I think I'm done arguing with you.
:drink:

The MODS know if its true or not. Thats all that really matters. I can tell you are young. Bless the child.

SteelKnight
09-09-2010, 09:54 PM
Shall I show you where you have said that before in the past?

I truly was not planning to engage you anymore but YES...show me where I ever said I was an expert. Please do.

After that I'm done.

steelerjim58
09-09-2010, 11:42 PM
In 5 of the 7 losses, the o scored 7 or less points in the second half. In 4 of the 7 losses the o scored 3 or less in the 4th qtr. The offense was pretty putrid all around last year. In 8 of the games they scored 7 or less in the second half. In 8 of the 16 they scored 3 or less in the 4th qtr. While it's easy to blame the defense because of when they allowed some of the scores, when you consider that 5 of the losses were by 3 points, my vote goes to the offense.

SteelKnight
09-10-2010, 12:03 AM
In 5 of the 7 losses, the o scored 7 or less points in the second half. In 4 of the 7 losses the o scored 3 or less in the 4th qtr. The offense was pretty putrid all around last year. In 8 of the games they scored 7 or less in the second half. In 8 of the 16 they scored 3 or less in the 4th qtr. While it's easy to blame the defense because of when they allowed some of the scores, when you consider that 5 of the losses were by 3 points, my vote goes to the offense.

I think all 3 phases are to blame but again...blowing 5 leads in the 4th quarter is blowing 5 leads in the 4th quarter. Maybe the offense was too complacent and didn't give enough of a cushion for the choking defense all 5 times. They might have been better off if they were beind and knew what they had to do. I really don't see covering for the D and saying they were tired...wanted milk and cookies ...and then in retrospect say we shouldn't ave been in this situation if only you could have given us a BIGGER lead. C'mon.