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SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:13 PM
Before we used to say Heath Miller is a top 5 TE but he doesn't get his credit because the Steelers ask him to do so much blocking and the receiving TEs get all the glory.

He had a decent year last year with 76 catches.

Still I would put him towards the middle of the pack. I can think of 10 guys I would rather have and here's why.

-Heath hardly gets YAC. maybe he has trouble getting separation. I know he has solid hands but YAC can be important sometimes.
-Heath never goes deep like some other teams TEs
-Even though Heath is praised for his blocking, I don't think he is the key to our run blocking and success in the run whenever I see a good run. I also don't think he is the key to pass blocking. Other TEs can do equal job blocking yet shine more with receptions.
-He could be better in the Red Zone

I know I will get rose colored responses with some even thinking he is better than Antonio Gates but with the rise of some pretty good TEs in the league, it is hard to argue that heath is top 10.

Edit: I change my mind to about 9th or 10th or so. So Yes...top 10 but not top 5.

MikeHaullace
09-23-2010, 06:16 PM
Heath Miller is pretty average in my opinion.

He is a good possession TE though personally, I think he is a rather piss-poor blocker. Not sure where you've seen or heard praise about his blocking, SK.

If there is something we can agree on, he is certainly NOT a Top 10 TE.

OX1947
09-23-2010, 06:17 PM
Hmmmmmm yah. How bout you go grow a brain first and then post next time. Anyone who says Heath Miller is overrated is either retarded or has no brain.....

lionslicer
09-23-2010, 06:19 PM
I love Heath Miller because he can block and catch. There aren't many tight ends that can do both well. I know there are tight ends who can block better than Miller and I know there are ones with better hands and speed, but he's very well balanced. Though he does get called for holding a lot, but tightends usually do because they are on the outside and refs see them them most.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:23 PM
Heath Miller is pretty average in my opinion.

He is a good possession TE though personally, I think he is a rather piss-poor blocker. Not sure where you've seen or heard praise about his blocking, SK.

If there is something we can agree on, he is certainly NOT a Top 10 TE.

The blocking thing is the excuse they used to make for him before last year when he had all those catches. They would say the Steelers ask him to block and he is one of the best etc. I think other TE can block just as well. He is no special blocker.

Meanwhile I'd rather have a Gates, Gonzalez, Cooley, Witten, Clark...even this new guy Hernandez from the Patriots looks like he can get YAC and he gets open.

If we can ever find an elite TE that can stretch the field and is a terror in the Red Zone, we should take him.

There are a lot of non-famous TEs who are better.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:25 PM
Hmmmmmm yah. How bout you go grow a brain first and then post next time. Anyone who says Heath Miller is overrated is either retarded or has no brain.....

You are so adult-like...Ivy League educated is my guess.

NYC_Steeler
09-23-2010, 06:29 PM
This has to be one of the most moronic posts I've ever seen. To say that Heath is not a top 10 TE is absolutely ridiculous. He's always come through in the clutch when Ben was the QB. Right now, you can pretty much say everyone stinks because we don't have a decent O-line or QB. We're getting by on defense - we don't have an offense.

joeyssteelcurtain
09-23-2010, 06:31 PM
Hmmmmmm yah. How bout you go grow a brain first and then post next time. Anyone who says Heath Miller is overrated is either retarded or has no brain.....

yea i was thinking the same thing maybe he meant underrated

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:32 PM
I love Heath Miller because he can block and catch. There aren't many tight ends that can do both well. I know there are tight ends who can block better than Miller and I know there are ones with better hands and speed, but he's very well balanced. Though he does get called for holding a lot, but tightends usually do because they are on the outside and refs see them them most.

I'm not saying he is bad. I'm saying he is a middle of the pack guy.

I think he has trouble getting separation.
He never goes medium-deep and before you blame Arians, if he could, I'm sure BA would send him. Even Greg Olsen can go medium deep.
Not a huge Red Zone threat.
No YAC

I don't have any real complaints about his blocking but I must say I do not believe he is the key to our pass or run blocking.

He does have dependable hands.

tony hipchest
09-23-2010, 06:34 PM
:scratchchin: hmmmm....

should i believe the opinion of jack del rio and other NFL professionals, or a steelers messageboard poster who is on a crusade to ban american cheese? :screwy:

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:35 PM
This has to be one of the most moronic posts I've ever seen. To say that Heath is not a top 10 TE is absolutely ridiculous. He's always come through in the clutch when Ben was the QB. Right now, you can pretty much say everyone stinks because we don't have a decent O-line or QB. We're getting by on defense - we don't have an offense.

I always know I am dealing with a moron when someone says it is the most moronic posts or dumbest posts they have ever seen...a moron with a flair for melodrama.

Miller is a good possession receiver on 3rd and short or medium with dependable hands. He is still not top 10.

tony hipchest
09-23-2010, 06:36 PM
one of the big reason ben is an all-time leader in YPA is because miller doesnt go deep. teams MUST respect the short game which opens things up for wallace downfield.

SteelCityMom
09-23-2010, 06:38 PM
Are there other TE's who are better? Absolutely...but I think he's definitely a top 10 TE (voted for top 5 because I know he's better than middle of the pack).


The modern NFL tight end can no longer get away with being a plodding, one-dimensional, nice-sized blocker and expect to stay on the field often for his team.
Instead, the position has evolved as one for premier, basketball-style athletes whose teams hope they can change the entire dynamics of their passing offense. It's all about an impressive combination of size and speed that's hard to stop in both close quarters and on intermediate routes:

8. Heath Miller, Pittsburgh Steelers

Superb all-around blocker and smooth soft-handed safety valve in the pass game.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/best-tight-ends-in-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/

7. Heath Miller, Pittsburgh Steelers. The Steelers' change to a more pass-oriented attack in the red zone has created more opportunities for Miller. He is a top-flight end zone target, creates mismatches with his size in short and intermediate zones, and uses his body well to shield defenders. And because he plays for the Steelers, it's a given he excels as a run blocker.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2008-07-17/ranking-top-20-nfl-tight-ends

Definitely NOT overrated.

NYC_Steeler
09-23-2010, 06:39 PM
I always know I am dealing with a moron when someone says it is the most moronic posts or dumbest posts they have ever seen...a moron with a flair for melodrama.

Miller is a good possession receiver on 3rd and short or medium with dependable hands. He is still not top 10.

How about idiotic? Like I said, moronic.

Top 10 - give him a decent QB.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:41 PM
:scratchchin: hmmmm....

should i believe the opinion of jack del rio and other NFL professionals, or a steelers messageboard poster who is on a crusade to ban american cheese? :screwy:

When did Jack Del Rio say it? Right before a Steelers Jaguars game where the coaches spend time blowing smoke up the other teams azz with compliments?

OK then Tony, What number would you rank him?

I never said he was bad...just middle of the pack. There are a lot of good TEs emerging these days. Many don't have Ben as a QB either.

I like Heath Miller...don't get me wrong...but there are others on other teams who could replace him.

tony hipchest
09-23-2010, 06:45 PM
When did Jack Del Rio say it? Right before a Steelers Jaguars game where the coaches spend time blowing smoke up the other teams azz with compliments?

OK then Tony, What number would you rank him?

I never said he was bad...just middle of the pack. There are a lot of good TEs emerging these days. Many don't have Ben as a QB either.

I like Heath Miller...don't get me wrong...but there are others on other teams who could replace him.jack del rio said it before the week one game a few weeks ago, when his own TE mercedes lewis went off.

his words were he believed lewis was right up there with miller as the most complete TE in the league, a few days before he went out and dominated.

i believe his opinoin over yours. :noidea:

truesteelerfan
09-23-2010, 06:46 PM
He is the best possible TE in the league today for our offense. He can block (which he needs to do so often due to our below average OL), he can catch almost anything thrown his way, and he can run after the catch. I love it when the crowd cheers his name once he has the ball in his hands! Other TE may be better at blocking, others at receiving, but none has the combo he has IMO.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:49 PM
Are there other TE's who are better? Absolutely...but I think he's definitely a top 10 TE (voted for top 5 because I know he's better than middle of the pack).






http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/best-tight-ends-in-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/



http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2008-07-17/ranking-top-20-nfl-tight-ends

Definitely NOT overrated.

We'll see. There are a bunch of good TEs emerging this season. Let's see how he ranks at the end of the season.

I think too much is made of his excellent blocking. I think other TEs can match that and then do better with receiving, separation, YAC, Red Zone.

It's my opinion but all of these are opinions. I appreciate when people can argue intelligently.

One of your rankings if from TWO years ago. Times are changing.

One area where he is excellent is on 3rd and medium to short. He has dependable hands.

zulater
09-23-2010, 06:49 PM
Hmmmmmm yah. How bout you go grow a brain first and then post next time. Anyone who says Heath Miller is overrated is either retarded or has no brain.....

ditto this. :thumbsup:

zulater
09-23-2010, 06:52 PM
He is the best possible TE in the league today for our offense. He can block (which he needs to do so often due to our below average OL), he can catch almost anything thrown his way, and he can run after the catch. I love it when the crowd cheers his name once he has the ball in his hands! Other TE may be better at blocking, others at receiving, but none has the combo he has IMO.

good post. :hatsoff:

lionslicer
09-23-2010, 06:52 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5GfGSTeMqs

SteelCityMom
09-23-2010, 06:53 PM
We'll see. There are a bunch of good TEs emerging this season. Let's see how he ranks at the end of the season.

I think too much is made of his excellent blocking. I think other TEs can match that and then do better with receiving, separation, YAC, Red Zone.

It's my opinion but all of these are opinions. I appreciate when people can argue intelligently.

One of your rankings if from TWO years ago. Times are changing.

One area where he is excellent is on 3rd and medium to short. He has dependable hands.

One of them is from two months ago? And has him ranked higher...

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 06:54 PM
jack del rio said it before the week one game a few weeks ago, when his own TE mercedes lewis went off.

his words were he believed lewis was right up there with miller as the most complete TE in the league, a few days before he went out and dominated.

i believe his opinoin over yours. :noidea:

They're all opinions but that is a technique is not top end. You used that with the last argument "I heard some player tell the media this and they are more valuable then you"...then with your Surgeon analogy...it's a tiresome technique. I watch sports for fun. I am qualified in my field. I am not a sports analyst or player but I can have opinions and the best way to discuss opinions is not by going over what players and coaches say to the media.

It's no surprise the poll is skewed because we are on a Steeler board.

lionslicer
09-23-2010, 06:57 PM
They're all opinions but that is a technique is not top end. You used that with the last argument "I heard some player tell the media this and they are more valuable then you"...then with your Surgeon analogy...it's a tiresome technique. I watch sports for fun. I am qualified in my field. I am not a sports analyst or player but I can have opinions and the best way to discuss opinions is not by going over what players and coaches say to the media.

It's no surprise the poll is skewed because we are on a Steeler board.

You should have put a top 10 option there. I didn't know what to pick, he's better than 13-19 but not in the top 5 lol.

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:00 PM
Aaron Smith only had one tackle last Sunday, so a stat obsessed moron would claim he's overrated. But those that understand football, particualry the 3-4 defense would know that Aaron had an excellent game and because of him the linebackers were able to flow to the ball freely all game long. Oh yeah Aaron might be the best 3-4 DE ever, but stat obsessed moron would miss it because he's never had a double digit sack season. .

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:00 PM
One of them is from two months ago? And has him ranked higher...

When the year is over we will see. A bunch of good ones are emerging. We'll see. Maybe Heath will step it up even more when Ben returns. If he stays like the past couple of years (with others moving up) then middle of the pack.

The overrated comment is to those that say he is like top 5 and just underrated because he is forced to block so much and is an excellent blocker.

I'm not totally opposed to making him 10th or so...just not top 5.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:07 PM
You should have put a top 10 option there. I didn't know what to pick, he's better than 13-19 but not in the top 5 lol.

I'm not totally opposed to 9th or 10th or so. All of that stuff is just opinion.

My main point to the overrated is to say that those that say he is top 5 but doesn't get his credit are overrating him.

There are a lot of good TEs emerging this year. It will be fun to see once the year is over.

I like the guy. I just think we are biased.

mikegrimey
09-23-2010, 07:09 PM
I'd say he's underrated in terms of national exposure and probowls but overrated by some of the hometown fans.

I really can't vote on your poll cause I don't think he's a middle of the pack tight end but don't think he's a top 5 either.

Pay no mind to the predictably nasty posts on here by the low brows that can't muster any response besides "you're a moron" or "grow a brain".

I can see your points about Miller and YAC with seperation. He's definitely not as fast as the new types of tight ends that function more as a wide receiver, Dallas Clark inparticularly. Yet you have to credit his great hands and he is one of our go to guys in tight situations.

stb_steeler
09-23-2010, 07:09 PM
Speath better than Miller.......Uh oh who let da dawgs out..... Kidding, no he's not........FIRE IN THE HOLE:sweating:

figg
09-23-2010, 07:09 PM
Miller was top 10 in nearly every important offensive category last year. If you throw in his blocking i'd say he's top 5.

Who are your top 5 te's?

SteelCityMom
09-23-2010, 07:11 PM
I'm not totally opposed to 9th or 10th or so. All of that stuff is just opinion.

My main point to the overrated is to say that those that say he is top 5 but doesn't get his credit are overrating him.

There are a lot of good TEs emerging this year. It will be fun to see once the year is over.

I like the guy. I just think we are biased.

I don't think we're that biased in thinking he's a great TE (even if some put him in the top 5)...he made it to the pro-bowl last year behind Clark (who was playing in the SB), and had his best year to date. He's done nothing but get better. Plenty of national media ranks him in at least top 10 and recognize how important he is to the team...so we can't all just be biased.

And I double-checked, both the articles I linked are from '10. One is from May, the other from July.

cubanstogie
09-23-2010, 07:14 PM
I can count on 2 fingers how many dropped passes Heath has had in his career. I wouldn't take any TE over him. Sure Vernon Davis and Antonio Gates have more big play capability but I would take a guy like Heath or Jason Witten for the TE postion anyday.

fer522
09-23-2010, 07:17 PM
without a doubt he is one of the top 5 TE
he blocks enough
he catches the ball enough
and hardly ever drops a pass
he's not the fastes but he's one of the smartes TE in the league
I'd rather have him than any other TE

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:20 PM
I don't think we're that biased in thinking he's a great TE (even if some put him in the top 5)...he made it to the pro-bowl last year behind Clark (who was playing in the SB), and had his best year to date. He's done nothing but get better. Plenty of national media ranks him in at least top 10 and recognize how important he is to the team...so we can't all just be biased.

And I double-checked, both the articles I linked are from '10. One is from May, the other from July.

If you look at your links, one says 2008 rankings. I think it is the second one.

He is important to the team because of how we use him. Fine. That's not my point. If a lot of these other TEs had Ben, they would do pretty well to. Some others are better at getting separation, YAC, more speed so can go deep, some are powerful so can go up in the air and win fights for the ball. Others are better Red Zone targets.

I wish people would understand that I am a Steeler fan also. I like the guy. i just think a bunch of others can do a little better on the receiving end...and this blocking expert, I just don't see it so much. I'm not sure whether they are referring to pass or run blocking but i don't think he is key to either for us. Others can do OK there.

Like I said...I have no problem with 9th or 10th...just not top 5.

stb_steeler
09-23-2010, 07:22 PM
I can count on 2 fingers how many dropped passes Heath has had in his career. I wouldn't take any TE over him. Sure Vernon Davis and Antonio Gates have more big play capability but I would take a guy like Heath or Jason Witten for the TE postion anyday.

I agree with ya on this one. Heath isnt used like Gates or Gonzalas. How many of them block as well as Heath, he's utilized much more other than catching balls. :wink02:

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:24 PM
I'd say he's underrated in terms of national exposure and probowls but overrated by some of the hometown fans.

I really can't vote on your poll cause I don't think he's a middle of the pack tight end but don't think he's a top 5 either.

Pay no mind to the predictably nasty posts on here by the low brows that can't muster any response besides "you're a moron" or "grow a brain".

I can see your points about Miller and YAC with seperation. He's definitely not as fast as the new types of tight ends that function more as a wide receiver, Dallas Clark inparticularly. Yet you have to credit his great hands and he is one of our go to guys in tight situations.


Well here's a predictably nasty post for you. Fantasy stat nerd thinks Heath is overrated, and that's understandable and fine. But any steeler fan who's watched Heath for the past 6 years and can't understand what he brings to this offense is a moron. :doh:

Some players just can't be defined by stats properly. If you think tackles are indicitive of great defensive line play you'd never understand how good Casey Hampton and Aaron Smith are. Theres' games where Troy Polamalu barely registers on the stat sheet, but if you had access to game film and had the ability to decipher it you'd see how Troy influenced nearly every offensive snap of our opponent. And if you understood what Heath Miller's overall role is to this offense you'd understand that he's invaluable to this team.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:27 PM
without a doubt he is one of the top 5 TE
he blocks enough
he catches the ball enough
and hardly ever drops a pass
he's not the fastes but he's one of the smartes TE in the league
I'd rather have him than any other TE

One think I will agree on is his solid hands. They say even in practice he hardly drops a ball.

I would put him higher if

-he were faster
-had more big playmaking ability sometimes forcing tripple teams (like Gates)
-better Red Zone target.
-could create more separation
-could get some deeper balls
-could get more YAC

It's no big deal that I have a different opinion. I'm still a Steeler fan. I hope he steps up his game (even better than last year) when Ben returns. There will be no "I told you so" moments. If he steps it up and becomes a beast I'll give credit.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:29 PM
I agree with ya on this one. Heath isnt used like Gates or Gonzalas. How many of them block as well as Heath, he's utilized much more other than catching balls. :wink02:

That is overused. Gates and the others can probably block as well as Heath has been blocking. Which aspect of his blocking is impressing you so much? Pass or run blocking?

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:33 PM
I agree with ya on this one. Heath isnt used like Gates or Gonzalas. How many of them block as well as Heath, he's utilized much more other than catching balls. :wink02:

Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates and tony gonzales are great pass catchers.They create huge mismatch problems for most teams that generally designate a linebacker or safety to cover them. Heath usaully exploits those sort of coverage schemes well too when asked to. Maybe not quite as good as those guys, but close. But ask any of them to block a defensive end or a linebacker and they'd shit in their britches on the spot. Heath Miller is the best all around tight end in the gam. Period, end of story.

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:35 PM
That is overused. Gates and the others can probably block as well as Heath has been blocking. Which aspect of his blocking is impressing you so much? Pass or run blocking?


:rofl::sofunny:

cubanstogie
09-23-2010, 07:36 PM
One think I will agree on is his solid hands. They say even in practice he hardly drops a ball.

I would put him higher if

-he were faster
-had more big playmaking ability sometimes forcing tripple teams (like Gates)
-better Red Zone target.
-could create more separation
-could get some deeper balls
-could get more YAC

It's no big deal that I have a different opinion. I'm still a Steeler fan. I hope he steps up his game (even better than last year) when Ben returns. There will be no "I told you so" moments. If he steps it up and becomes a beast I'll give credit.

he is a TE though. TE's arent expected to have big play capability, or go deep. IF thats your criteria for being good TE than fine no one is going to convince you otherwise. You could say the same about Hines Ward. Not the fastest, could create more seperation, could get deeper balls. We have Wallace as a deep threat, and Santonio was our big play guy last year as well. Its not like they have Heath returning punts or something. He is a lineman who also catches the ball.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:37 PM
I'd say he's underrated in terms of national exposure and probowls but overrated by some of the hometown fans.

I really can't vote on your poll cause I don't think he's a middle of the pack tight end but don't think he's a top 5 either.

Pay no mind to the predictably nasty posts on here by the low brows that can't muster any response besides "you're a moron" or "grow a brain".

I can see your points about Miller and YAC with seperation. He's definitely not as fast as the new types of tight ends that function more as a wide receiver, Dallas Clark inparticularly. Yet you have to credit his great hands and he is one of our go to guys in tight situations.

Good post.

I was trying to have a fun and intellectual debate. I'm skipping by some of those melodramatic ones that start with insults and assumptions that people are using fantasy stats and other stupid things like that. What a waste of time.

I really have no problem with 9th or 10th. There are some young TEs showing some flashes this year. We'll have to wait until the season is over and see who emerges.

Meanwhile, maybe Heath will step his game up and become the kind of TE defenses fear ...we'll see.

I'm going to keep my eye out for this amazing blocking I keep hearing about. I'm sure other TEs could match that.

stb_steeler
09-23-2010, 07:39 PM
Dallas Clark, Antonio Gates and tony gonzales are great pass catchers.They create huge mismatch problems for most teams that generally designate a linebacker or safety to cover them. Heath usaully exploits those sort of coverage schemes well too when asked to. Maybe not quite as good as those guys, but close. But ask any of them to block a defensive end or a linebacker and they'd shit in their britches on the spot. Heath Miller is the best all around tight end in the gam. Period, end of story.

Tell that to SteelKnight.......

The Lakelander
09-23-2010, 07:39 PM
I voted that he's the best ever ... and if you don't like it then STFU! :chuckle:

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:41 PM
Good post.

I was trying to have a fun and intellectual debate. I'm skipping by some of those melodramatic ones that start with insults and assumptions that people are using fantasy stats and other stupid things like that. What a waste of time.

I really have no problem with 9th or 10th. There are some young TEs showing some flashes this year. We'll have to wait until the season is over and see who emerges.

Meanwhile, maybe Heath will step his game up and become the kind of TE defenses fear ...we'll see.

I'm going to keep my eye out for this amazing blocking I keep hearing about. I'm sure other TEs could match that.

I'm sure that last sentence reveals exactly how clueless you are in this "debate". :coffee:

Nuff said, no use wasting any more key strokes on this nonsense. :hatsoff:

steelax04
09-23-2010, 07:43 PM
I'd say he's better than middle of the pack...

Some stats to feed the discussion... from 2009:

Top 10 tight ends in receptions:

1. Clark 100
2. Witten 94
3. Gonzalez 83
4. Gates 79
5. Davis 78
6. Winslow 77
7. H. Miller 76
8. Celek 76
9. Z. Miller 66
10. Olson 60

% of balls caught when targetted:

1. H. Miller 77.5%
2. Clark 75.8%
3. Witten 75.2%
4. Gates 69.2%
5. Celek 67.9%
6. Z. Miller 66.0%
7. Gonzalez 61.5%
8. Winslow 60.6%
9. Davis 60.4%
10. Olson 55.6%

Yards per catch:

1. Gates 14.6
2. Celek 12.8
3. Davis 12.4
4. Z. Miller 12.2
5. Winslow 11.5
6. Clark 11.1
7. Wittne 11.0
8. Gonzalez 10.4
8. H. Miller 10.4
10 Olson 10.2

Yards after catch per reception:

1. Gates 6.5
2. H. Miller 5.5
2. Celek 5.5
2. Z. Miller 5.5
5. Clark 4.9
6. Witten 4.3
7. Davis 4.2
8. Wunslow 3.2
9. Olson 3.0
10. Gonzalez 2.5

Touchdowns:

1. Davis 13
2. Clark 10
3. Gates 8
3. Celek 8
3. Olson 8
6. Gonzalez 6
6. H. Miller 6
8. Winslow 5
9. Z. Miller 3
10. Witten 2

mikegrimey
09-23-2010, 07:44 PM
Well here's a predictably nasty post for you. Fantasy stat nerd thinks Heath is overrated, and that's understandable and fine. But any steeler fan who's watched Heath for the past 6 years and can't understand what he brings to this offense is a moron. :doh:

Some players just can't be defined by stats properly. If you think tackles are indicitive of great defensive line play you'd never understand how good Casey Hampton and Aaron Smith are. Theres' games where Troy Polamalu barely registers on the stat sheet, but if you had access to game film and had the ability to decipher it you'd see how Troy influenced nearly every offensive snap of our opponent. And if you understood what Heath Miller's overall role is to this offense you'd understand that he's invaluable to this team.

Your whole post works under the assumption that I'm defining who Heath Miller is as a player by statistics and statistics only.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you have any evidence that this is how I am judging Miller?

We know the answer is no, I don't know why you bothered quoting my post if you were just going to put up your own straw man argument anyway.

You're just arguing with yourself here Zulater, but at least that post wasn't as nasty as the other ones.

stb_steeler
09-23-2010, 07:44 PM
That is overused. Gates and the others can probably block as well as Heath has been blocking. Which aspect of his blocking is impressing you so much? Pass or run blocking?

I disagree with ya on that about Gates blocking better that Miller...Example: Chargers/KC game....Gates had several blown assignments, missed blocks. All he ever wants to do is catch the ball, which i agree he is one of the best at it. As to your question if im impressed with Heath on pass or run block i'd have to say run blocking!.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:45 PM
he is a TE though. TE's arent expected to have big play capability, or go deep. IF thats your criteria for being good TE than fine no one is going to convince you otherwise. You could say the same about Hines Ward. Not the fastest, could create more seperation, could get deeper balls. We have Wallace as a deep threat, and Santonio was our big play guy last year as well. Its not like they have Heath returning punts or something. He is a lineman who also catches the ball.

It's not a criterion...Once others start to do it, they are doing it. If Heath's blocking was so much more stellar than everyone else's then that would balance. It's the total package. I can't convince those who say they would rather have Miller than Gates so why waste my time trying.

They will toss out "blocking" but they won't tell you exactly where miller is key to either or pass or run blocking. If it is run, hopefully he does better this year...especially on short yardage.

mikegrimey
09-23-2010, 07:46 PM
I'd say he's better than middle of the pack...

Some stats to feed the discussion... from 2009:

Top 10 tight ends in receptions:

1. Clark 100
2. Witten 94
3. Gonzalez 83
4. Gates 79
5. Davis 78
6. Winslow 77
7. H. Miller 76
8. Celek 76
9. Z. Miller 66
10. Olson 60

% of balls caught when targetted:

1. H. Miller 77.5%
2. Clark 75.8%
3. Witten 75.2%
4. Gates 69.2%
5. Celek 67.9%
6. Z. Miller 66.0%
7. Gonzalez 61.5%
8. Winslow 60.6%
9. Davis 60.4%
10. Olson 55.6%

Yards per catch:

1. Gates 14.6
2. Celek 12.8
3. Davis 12.4
4. Z. Miller 12.2
5. Winslow 11.5
6. Clark 11.1
7. Wittne 11.0
8. Gonzalez 10.4
8. H. Miller 10.4
10 Olson 10.2

Yards after catch per reception:

1. Gates 6.5
2. H. Miller 5.5
2. Celek 5.5
2. Z. Miller 5.5
5. Clark 4.9
6. Witten 4.3
7. Davis 4.2
8. Wunslow 3.2
9. Olson 3.0
10. Gonzalez 2.5

Touchdowns:

1. Davis 13
2. Clark 10
3. Gates 8
3. Celek 8
3. Olson 8
6. Gonzalez 6
6. H. Miller 6
8. Winslow 5
9. Z. Miller 3
10. Witten 2

That is a nice post. The YAC was suprising to me, I never thought of Miller as a high YAC guy.
Do you have the total yardage of TE's as well?

Also, Miller is a pretty good red zone target, I would think he'd be targeted more.

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:48 PM
I'd say he's better than middle of the pack...

Some stats to feed the discussion... from 2009:

Top 10 tight ends in receptions:

1. Clark 100
2. Witten 94
3. Gonzalez 83
4. Gates 79
5. Davis 78
6. Winslow 77
7. H. Miller 76
8. Celek 76
9. Z. Miller 66
10. Olson 60

% of balls caught when targetted:

1. H. Miller 77.5%
2. Clark 75.8%
3. Witten 75.2%
4. Gates 69.2%
5. Celek 67.9%
6. Z. Miller 66.0%
7. Gonzalez 61.5%
8. Winslow 60.6%
9. Davis 60.4%
10. Olson 55.6%

Yards per catch:

1. Gates 14.6
2. Celek 12.8
3. Davis 12.4
4. Z. Miller 12.2
5. Winslow 11.5
6. Clark 11.1
7. Wittne 11.0
8. Gonzalez 10.4
8. H. Miller 10.4
10 Olson 10.2

Yards after catch per reception:

1. Gates 6.5
2. H. Miller 5.5
2. Celek 5.5
2. Z. Miller 5.5
5. Clark 4.9
6. Witten 4.3
7. Davis 4.2
8. Wunslow 3.2
9. Olson 3.0
10. Gonzalez 2.5

Touchdowns:

1. Davis 13
2. Clark 10
3. Gates 8
3. Celek 8
3. Olson 8
6. Gonzalez 6
6. H. Miller 6
8. Winslow 5
9. Z. Miller 3
10. Witten 2

I know I said I was done, but good info. think you proved the point well with these numbers. :applaudit:



I was too lazy to look it up, but it just never occured to me that it wasn't self evident to anyone familiar with the Steelers that Heath Miller is an elite tight end. I honestly don't give a damn where you want to rank him, I just know that no other tight end could do for the Steelers what he does year in and year out in all phases of the game.

Now I'm done. :wave:

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:49 PM
I disagree with ya on that about Gates blocking better that Miller...Example: Chargers/KC game....Gates had several blown assignments, missed blocks. All he ever wants to do is catch the ball, which i agree he is one of the best at it. As to your question if im impressed with Heath on pass or run block i'd have to say run blocking!.

Well our run blocking wasn't so great last year. I never said Gates was a BETTER blocker. I said I'm sure he can block as well. I watched the Chargers/KC game. I don't particularly remember Gates missing obvious blocks but next time I watch, I will be paying attention. I do know he was a beast in the game...absolute beast. i watched in amazement.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:50 PM
I voted that he's the best ever ... and if you don't like it then STFU! :chuckle:

LOL

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:51 PM
Your whole post works under the assumption that I'm defining who Heath Miller is as a player by statistics and statistics only.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you have any evidence that this is how I am judging Miller?

We know the answer is no, I don't know why you bothered quoting my post if you were just going to put up your own straw man argument anyway.

You're just arguing with yourself here Zulater, but at least that post wasn't as nasty as the other ones.

Oh shit, I was really going for the nasty too.:mad: Damn it gotta try harder next time I guess. :banging:


:flap::chuckle:

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:53 PM
Your whole post works under the assumption that I'm defining who Heath Miller is as a player by statistics and statistics only.

Let me ask you a question.

Do you have any evidence that this is how I am judging Miller?

We know the answer is no, I don't know why you bothered quoting my post if you were just going to put up your own straw man argument anyway.

You're just arguing with yourself here Zulater, but at least that post wasn't as nasty as the other ones.

Yeah...I stopped reading his posts as soon as I saw the nastiness and assumptions. I just skip them.

steelax04
09-23-2010, 07:55 PM
Here's the TE stats right from NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_YARDS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2009&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:55 PM
Well our run blocking wasn't so great last year. I never said Gates was a BETTER blocker. I said I'm sure he can block as well. I watched the Chargers/KC game. I don't particularly remember Gates missing obvious blocks but next time I watch, I will be paying attention. I do know he was a beast in the game...absolute beast. i watched in amazement.

Gee think that might have something to do with the below average center ( who since has been cut), the underwhelming right guard who probably wouldn't start on another team, the inconsistent left tackle, and Matt spaeth? Heath supposed to block the whole defensive front 7 by himself?

Ok now I'm done.


:wink02:

lionslicer
09-23-2010, 07:56 PM
I'd say he's better than middle of the pack...

Some stats to feed the discussion... from 2009:

Top 10 tight ends in receptions:

1. Clark 100
2. Witten 94
3. Gonzalez 83
4. Gates 79
5. Davis 78
6. Winslow 77
7. H. Miller 76
8. Celek 76
9. Z. Miller 66
10. Olson 60

% of balls caught when targetted:

1. H. Miller 77.5%
2. Clark 75.8%
3. Witten 75.2%
4. Gates 69.2%
5. Celek 67.9%
6. Z. Miller 66.0%
7. Gonzalez 61.5%
8. Winslow 60.6%
9. Davis 60.4%
10. Olson 55.6%

Yards per catch:

1. Gates 14.6
2. Celek 12.8
3. Davis 12.4
4. Z. Miller 12.2
5. Winslow 11.5
6. Clark 11.1
7. Wittne 11.0
8. Gonzalez 10.4
8. H. Miller 10.4
10 Olson 10.2

Yards after catch per reception:

1. Gates 6.5
2. H. Miller 5.5
2. Celek 5.5
2. Z. Miller 5.5
5. Clark 4.9
6. Witten 4.3
7. Davis 4.2
8. Wunslow 3.2
9. Olson 3.0
10. Gonzalez 2.5

Touchdowns:

1. Davis 13
2. Clark 10
3. Gates 8
3. Celek 8
3. Olson 8
6. Gonzalez 6
6. H. Miller 6
8. Winslow 5
9. Z. Miller 3
10. Witten 2

That averages out to about 4.4 making Heath Miller a top 5 tight end

zulater
09-23-2010, 07:58 PM
Yeah...I stopped reading his posts as soon as I saw the nastiness and assumptions. I just skip them.

You've been proved wrong , you plan on conceeding any time soon?

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 07:59 PM
I'd say he's better than middle of the pack...

Some stats to feed the discussion... from 2009:



% of balls caught when targetted:

1. H. Miller 77.5%
2. Clark 75.8%
3. Witten 75.2%
4. Gates 69.2%
5. Celek 67.9%
6. Z. Miller 66.0%
7. Gonzalez 61.5%
8. Winslow 60.6%
9. Davis 60.4%
10. Olson 55.6%


Yards after catch per reception:

1. Gates 6.5
2. H. Miller 5.5
2. Celek 5.5
2. Z. Miller 5.5
5. Clark 4.9
6. Witten 4.3
7. Davis 4.2
8. Wunslow 3.2
9. Olson 3.0
10. Gonzalez 2.5


Not that I was making my assessment based on stats but I'm sure those who would have argued that stats are useless and just for fantasy people will jump on this and be using it for their defense . Watch.

I quoted two stats I found interesting. I like the percentage of balls caught when targeted. They need to get the ball to him more and send him a little deeper then.

The YAC one was surprising. Others seem to get more YAC but now that I know this statistic, I won't use that argument against him. lol

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 08:10 PM
Here's the TE stats right from NFL.com

http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?archive=true&seasonType=REG&statisticPositionCategory=TIGHT_END&d-447263-o=2&conference=null&d-447263-s=RECEIVING_YARDS&experience=null&d-447263-n=1&season=2009&qualified=true&Submit=Go&tabSeq=1&d-447263-p=1

There are a lot of good young TEs emerging this year so the list will be different at the end of the year. Of course Heath's stats will be hurt by the absence of Ben. No doubt he had his best year last year. Will he take it to the next level and become a match-up nightmare for defenses...drawing double teams and being awesome in the Red Zone? We'll see. I hope.

Where did you get your previous stats...thanks.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 08:16 PM
That averages out to about 4.4 making Heath Miller a top 5 tight end

People use stats wen it suits their argument...especially when it is the players best year. If those stats didn't support their opinion, stats are garbage.

Of course those stats don't include the way some young TEs are playing this year.

I do like the stat of % ball caught that were thrown at him. They need to throw to him more with some deeper patterns occasionally and see if he can keep that percentage up.

SteelCityMom
09-23-2010, 08:34 PM
There are a lot of good young TEs emerging this year so the list will be different at the end of the year. Of course Heath's stats will be hurt by the absence of Ben. No doubt he had his best year last year. Will he take it to the next level and become a match-up nightmare for defenses...drawing double teams and being awesome in the Red Zone? We'll see. I hope.

Where did you get your previous stats...thanks.

I believe the stats he posted are the ones from the link. Those are all last seasons stats.

I looked and Heath is way, way down on the list so far this year. 21st overall or something ungodly like that. I think we can all agree that his play is not the reason for that though so far.

SteelCityMom
09-23-2010, 08:38 PM
People use stats wen it suits their argument...especially when it is the players best year. If those stats didn't support their opinion, stats are garbage.

Of course those stats don't include the way some young TEs are playing this year.

I do like the stat of % ball caught that were thrown at him. They need to throw to him more with some deeper patterns occasionally and see if he can keep that percentage up.

Yeah...a lot of people have always though Miller is way, way underused. I think if he was used more like Gates and Clark his numbers would be even that much better. Miller does more blocking though (and someone with more time and more know how would be better at finding some kind of info on his blocking...but I've never heard anything but positives in regard to that aspect of his play).

I have one of his pages on my FB account, and it just happened to have a random Heath Miller fact on there today...

Miller "fun" fact: Miller has 27 career touchdowns, which is second on the team’s
all-time list for touchdowns by a tight end. Pittsburgh is 18-6 when
Miller finds the end zone

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000323033075

Not that I think that means he's the best in the league now or anything...I just thought that was really cool.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 08:52 PM
I believe the stats he posted are the ones from the link. Those are all last seasons stats.

I looked and Heath is way, way down on the list so far this year. 21st overall or something ungodly like that. I think we can all agree that his play is not the reason for that though so far.

Nah...not the NFL stats. I want the one that shows things like percentage of balls caught. Yes...I know his stats are down because of Ben.

I just think there is a lot of talent emerging at TE recently and not all of them have who I think is the #4QB in the league (Ben). Some of these players would produce some nice numbers in a Steelers uniform (example Cooley...with Ben would be awesome).

Yeah...a lot of people have always though Miller is way, way underused. I think if he was used more like Gates and Clark his numbers would be even that much better. Miller does more blocking though (and someone with more time and more know how would be better at finding some kind of info on his blocking...but I've never heard anything but positives in regard to that aspect of his play).

I have one of his pages on my FB account, and it just happened to have a random Heath Miller fact on there today...



http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100000323033075

Not that I think that means he's the best in the league now or anything...I just thought that was really cool.

That's a nice stat. Well that's a nice STAT. They need to use him more (if he is getting his separation). Send him deeper occasionally to see if is percentage holds up. Target him more in the redzone to see if his percentage holds up.

It's hard to judge roles in run blocking unless you are a game tape master. The way our running game has gone, I'd rather have a Gates, Gonzalez, Clark, Witten, or even a Cooley. It's fun to assume that all other TE can't block but that would be inaccurate. All of us are just guessing.

Sorry. I'd like a TE that can get some separation.

You brought up a good point that he improved last year. Hopefully he can improve even more. I think I was a bit tough. He's probably top 10 but not top 5.

MattsMe
09-23-2010, 09:10 PM
I skipped to the end of this thread, because I couldn't possibly stomach seven pages of this.

People get all hung up on tight ends these days that aren't really true tight ends, they're simply over sized receivers, and that's how they're used in their particular offense.

Heath is definitely not overrated. I believe everyone's entitled to their opinion, but this thread is making me rethink that belief.

This thread needs a patriots* suck and tom brady is gay option.

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 09:32 PM
I skipped to the end of this thread, because I couldn't possibly stomach seven pages of this.

People get all hung up on tight ends these days that aren't really true tight ends, they're simply over sized receivers, and that's how they're used in their particular offense.

Heath is definitely not overrated. I believe everyone's entitled to their opinion, but this thread is making me rethink that belief.

This thread needs a patriots* suck and tom brady is gay option.

The assumption is always made that whenever a TE is good at receiving he sucks at blocking. many of these teams have a good running game. I can't tell you how much their TEs contribute on run blocking and you probably can't either. Only a game tape master would be credible in looking at this.

When we had a top running game, that could be used as a good excuse ...well Heath is too busy blocking.

I guess the question is how much of what Miller offers in our running game is crucial to our running game that would make you pick him over a TE that can get more separation and create more mismatches.

Many of these TE that are just pretty good would be great with a QB like Ben.

I'm impressed with that percentage catch statistic. Like I said ...more deep balls and more red zone targets. If he really can maintain 77% then we should be scoring 3/4 red zone trips (if we target him once each time) and should have a few more medium deep passes completed.

tony hipchest
09-23-2010, 09:35 PM
is it possible that in less than a week, this board has already found its replacement for Downbylaw?

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/PureCheese.gif

seriously...

a "heath miller is overrated" thread and petition to ban american cheese in the same day??? :doh:

SteelKnight
09-23-2010, 11:15 PM
is it possible that in less than a week, this board has already found its replacement for Downbylaw?

http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q23/shortyshane_2006/PureCheese.gif

seriously...

a "heath miller is overrated" thread and petition to ban american cheese in the same day??? :doh:

Now that is where I draw the line. Insults like that are completely uncalled for. :sofunny:

I can't believe I wasted an hour and a half of my time arguing about an opinion.

I DO favor the playmaker receiving TE that produces mismatches, is hard for a LB to cover, can make some long catches and is a beast in the red zone.

This is all opinion as is any other about who is better.

IF we can get our running back to top 5 and IF it can be shown that without Heath's run blocking we would not be in the top 5 then i would certainly be willing to have a player like Heath who can help in run and pass.

If the Run stays middle of the pack or it cannot be definitively proven that Heath is the key to it, then I'd rather have the type of TE I described. Now...maybe Heath himself could develop into that kind of TE if we used him differently (although speed and separation might be an issue).

People never like you saying anything. Back in the day when we had Bruner, I never liked him but Steeler fans were always saying how he is really one of the top but since he is a run blocker he is under appreciated. I myself longed for the days of Eric Green.

I would like more dynamic play from the TE position.

It really is tough to compare since Ben, to me, is a top 4 QB. There are many talented TEs who would flourish here with Ben and Miller could be less productive with a lesser QB.

Who each person likes is more opinion (within a certain range). As for run-blocking, it only becomes relevant if we can get to top form again. Still, i think they could work their way around it with an average run blocker.

As far as overrated, I should have said among Steelers fans. Others are more fair. Not everyone get to play with Ben though... I think the first down index is pretty fair (give-take). He was 9th on that so maybe he is about the 9th best.

I still would much rather have gates. I doubt our run game would suffer. Did you see the Monday night game where they were triple teaming him?

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-23-2010, 11:18 PM
SteelKnight and Mikegrimey,

Why are you continuing this pointless debate? Both of you were officially PWNED about 6 posts back when someone posted his actual stats.

You claim Heath is not a top 5 TE. We argued otherwise, and you cited other tight ends' various individual accompishments. Then someone cited the actual stats that prove you WRONG, and you are STILL trying to argue this intellectually devoid stance?

You can give up now and just admit you were wrong....Heath IS a top 5 TE, by intangibles, by the stats, and as evaluated by other sports experts. What else is there left to argue?

Shea
09-23-2010, 11:25 PM
I skipped to the end of this thread, because I couldn't possibly stomach seven pages of this.

You and me both.

I saw the opener and Heath sealed the edge on the Mendy run that lead to the win.

To imply that he isn't much of a blocker would be in the same category as saying Hines isn't much of a blocking receiver.

Perhaps Knight is confusing Heath with Spaeth?

Sorry Knight, but this is one of the dumbest threads I've seen in quite awhile.

figg
09-23-2010, 11:33 PM
SteelKnight and Mikegrimey,

Why are you continuing this pointless debate? Both of you were officially PWNED about 6 posts back when someone posted his actual stats.

You claim Heath is not a top 5 TE. We argued otherwise, and you cited other tight ends' various individual accompishments. Then someone cited the actual stats that prove you WRONG, and you are STILL trying to argue this intellectually devoid stance?

You can give up now and just admit you were wrong....Heath IS a top 5 TE, by intangibles, by the stats, and as evaluated by other sports experts. What else is there left to argue?

I made mention of those stats on page 3! :drink:

ZoneBlitzer
09-23-2010, 11:42 PM
I'll just chime in one thing...there's no way Shockey is better than Heath. He's definitely top 10. He's just struggled of late to make some catches. I think that's how this post got started.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 12:17 AM
SteelKnight and Mikegrimey,

Why are you continuing this pointless debate? Both of you were officially PWNED about 6 posts back when someone posted his actual stats.

You claim Heath is not a top 5 TE. We argued otherwise, and you cited other tight ends' various individual accompishments. Then someone cited the actual stats that prove you WRONG, and you are STILL trying to argue this intellectually devoid stance?

You can give up now and just admit you were wrong....Heath IS a top 5 TE, by intangibles, by the stats, and as evaluated by other sports experts. What else is there left to argue?

All this is opinion. People can carry on for days when the stats don't support their point that losers who use stats are just into fantasy. One idiot did just that even though nobody was discussing stats. Then you bring stats for one year. What it comes down to is what I said in my last post. I'm not going to waste time repeating it.

OX1947
09-24-2010, 12:23 AM
You are so adult-like...Ivy League educated is my guess.

Look, cut the hippie bullcrap trying to act like Mr Smart man over here. Bottom line is when someone says something as asinine as you, blatant retort is deserved. Thinking Heath Miller is overrated is stupid. Sorry, not my fault, your the schlep who wrote it not me, not ghosts of Einstein or Jules Verne, or whoever the (bleep).

Tone's Toes
09-24-2010, 12:30 AM
His good blocking reputation comes from his coaches that study the film. It isn't made up by fans.

He's a top 10 TE. He's one of the more complete TE's in the league right now. You can list guys that are better WR's or better blockers, but few combine both as well as Heath Miller.

I mean, the guy caught 76 passes for the Steelers last year. That's amazing. The Steelers don't even really feature the TE.

Mentioning guys on NE and Indy. Imagine if Heath Miller played for the Colts or Patriots. Played for a dominate passing team. Played for a team that featured the TE more. His numbers would skyrocket.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 12:34 AM
You and me both.

I saw the opener and Heath sealed the edge on the Mendy run that lead to the win.

To imply that he isn't much of a blocker would be in the same category as saying Hines isn't much of a blocking receiver.

Perhaps Knight is confusing Heath with Spaeth?

Sorry Knight, but this is one of the dumbest threads I've seen in quite awhile.

Many people made good blocks on that run. Heath sealed inside by the way.

The type of TE people prefer is really a matter of opinion. People can't ignore stats every year they don't like them and then one year when they like them it is an open and shut case. There are many talented TEs developing around the league and I think many would do well with Ben.

Maybe Heath will develop into a terror and mismatch problem and if he does I'll give credit. As for now, maybe he's 9th or so. I really don't care about the number because there is a lot of opinion involved.

I suggest we send him further on some passes if he can create the separation and trow to him more in the red zone (if he can get open) to see if he can keep up that catch percentage. If he can, that's awesome for us.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 12:41 AM
His good blocking reputation comes from his coaches that study the film. It isn't made up by fans.

He's a top 10 TE. He's one of the more complete TE's in the league right now. You can list guys that are better WR's or better blockers, but few combine both as well as Heath Miller.

I mean, the guy caught 76 passes for the Steelers last year. That's amazing. The Steelers don't even really feature the TE.

Mentioning guys on NE and Indy. Imagine if Heath Miller played for the Colts or Patriots. Played for a dominate passing team. Played for a team that featured the TE more. His numbers would skyrocket.

Likewise there are many TE you could say imagine if he played with Ben. Personally I think our offense would benefit from a Dallas Clark type. They send Miller out on enough passes, if he can get open, I'm sure they will throw him the ball. I don't think the opportunities is an issue.

That argument about run blocking works if we can get back to a top 5 rushing team.

It's no big deal. All this stuff is opinion.

tony hipchest
09-24-2010, 12:43 AM
steelknight-

you have disregarded actual statistics in this thread AND you have disregarde the opinions of ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS.

just cause you sit on your ass an watch on tv, how does that make you more qualified than the likes of gil brandt?

mikegrimey
09-24-2010, 12:58 AM
SteelKnight and Mikegrimey,

Why are you continuing this pointless debate? Both of you were officially PWNED about 6 posts back when someone posted his actual stats.

You claim Heath is not a top 5 TE. We argued otherwise, and you cited other tight ends' various individual accompishments. Then someone cited the actual stats that prove you WRONG, and you are STILL trying to argue this intellectually devoid stance?

You can give up now and just admit you were wrong....Heath IS a top 5 TE, by intangibles, by the stats, and as evaluated by other sports experts. What else is there left to argue?

First off, what are you whining at me for? Continuing what debate?

Far as I know, I posted a subjective opinion in this thread and made mention to Steelknight to ignore the insecure nastiness of some of the troll's in this thread. AFter that I asked Zulate why he made a straw man to argue against while quoting my post.

Second, we're adults, there is no "pwning".

Third, I am reevaluating my ideas about Miller in the top 5 based on those statistics posted, I also asked to see yardage too but don't know if anyone posted it yet. Certainly my position was never set in stone and I can admit that I was too hasty in writing Miller out of the top 5.

Again, I never started a debate in this thread, just quickly threw in my subjective take and asked Zulater to tone down the nastiness. Are you mistaking me for somebody else?

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 12:59 AM
steelknight-

you have disregarded actual statistics in this thread AND you have disregarde the opinions of ACTUAL PROFESSIONALS.

just cause you sit on your ass an watch on tv, how does that make you more qualified than the likes of gil brandt?

It's all opinion but people will take the stats if they like them (like isolated 2009 stats) or disregard them if they don't like them (like previous years). There is no need to be hypocritical. Stats are helpful but are not open and shut with opinions.

He is probably about 9th and your expert thing is corny. You use that for everything.

By the way Vernon Davis and Jason Witten can both run block and catch.

I never claimed to be an expert football opinion maker anyway.

Ruffneck525
09-24-2010, 01:01 AM
I'm sorry but anybody who thinks H Miller is average has no football sense at all.

he is easily one of the top 5 tight ends in the league.

SteelCurtain0815
09-24-2010, 01:03 AM
I've never really thought about this, but I kinda agree with what SteelKnight is saying. Sure, everyone loves Heath in Pittsburgh, but there's nothing he does that is spectacular. He's not a "beast" blocker like everyone is saying he is. In fact, he's not even the best blocking TE on our team. All that Heath is, is a security blanket in the passing game. But another thing you have to remember is there aren't very many freak athletes out there that are that big and can run that fast (Vernon Davis) to get YAC or create separation. We have other people on our team who can create separation and get YAC (Mike Wallace), so Heath isn't asked to do that. Like I said before, he doesn't do anything spectacular, but he does his job very well and that's all he is asked to do.

tony hipchest
09-24-2010, 01:07 AM
I'll just chime in one thing...there's no way Shockey is better than Heath. He's definitely top 10. He's just struggled of late to make some catches. I think that's how this post got started.agreed... shockeys about done.

just watch him the next time he goes up for a ball. he cant even land and run. he falls straight down.

anyone who thinks he is better than miller is a bandwagon jumping, SB champion, "flavor of the week" fool.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 01:08 AM
First off, what are you whining at me for? Continuing what debate?

Far as I know, I posted a subjective opinion in this thread and made mention to Steelknight to ignore the insecure nastiness of some of the troll's in this thread. AFter that I asked Zulate why he made a straw man to argue against while quoting my post.

Second, we're adults, there is no "pwning".

Third, I am reevaluating my ideas about Miller in the top 5 based on those statistics posted, I also asked to see yardage too but don't know if anyone posted it yet. Certainly my position was never set in stone and I can admit that I was too hasty in writing Miller out of the top 5.

Again, I never started a debate in this thread, just quickly threw in my subjective take and asked Zulater to tone down the nastiness. Are you mistaking me for somebody else?

He had a good year last year but not everything is about statistics.

The years that they didn't like his stats we weren't allowed to use stats.

It is all opinion regarding what type of TE someone prefers...no big deal.

He may still develop into what I prefer.

I would just like to see more prominence in the red zone
better separation...causing mismatch nightmares
some deeper receptions.

If he can go a little deeper and also be targeted more in the Red Zone and still keep his 77% completion percentage, he will be a beast. All this is contingent on his ability to get open in these areas or be so dominant that 1 v 1 is open and he can win a toss up pass.

tony hipchest
09-24-2010, 01:26 AM
He is probably about 9th and your expert thing is corny. You use that for everything.

.did you really just say that trusting a professional expert's analysis is corny?

as opposed to a couch potato, tv watchers ramblings?

really?

lets not forget that your "expert" analysis would lead us all to believe that there is no difference between wearing a black or white jersey in 90 degree humid heat and that mozzerella nachos are to die for.

any credibility you are hoping to build with this thread is already sunk.

my advice to you is to quit trying so hard to stand out and just focus on blending in, because what you are currently doing as downbylaws "look at me" replacement simply isnt working.

:yawn:

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 01:29 AM
It is interesting to have a 10.4 YPC and 5.5 YAC. That means the average catch from line of scrimmage is 4.9 yards.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 01:33 AM
did you really just say that trusting a professional expert's analysis is corny?

as opposed to a couch potato, tv watchers ramblings?

really?

lets not forget that your "expert" analysis would lead us all to believe that there is no difference between wearing a black or white jersey in 90 degree humid heat and that mozzerella nachos are to die for.

any credibility you are hoping to build with this thread is already sunk.

my advice to you is to quit trying so hard to stand out and just focus on blending in, because what you are currently doing as downbylaws "look at me" replacement simply isnt working.

:yawn:

No Tony what's corny is your childish way of arguing "I heard someone say one thing and that person is more qualified than you." It's like a child argues. Really.

A mature thing would be to actually focus on the actual discussion instead of trying to make things personal. When you do that, you have to be called out on style.

I don't care about "blending" or standing out. It is a message board. If I want to share an opinion or hear other thoughts on an opinion I should be free to do that.

tony hipchest
09-24-2010, 01:36 AM
im not downbylaw.

im not even arguing with you.

there is no argument.

you are simply wrong. your facts are wrong and your opinions are misguided.

simple as that. you can say a player wearing a white yersey will make them hotter than a black jersey in 100 degree heat or you can say heath miller is overrated.

just because that may (or may not) be your opinion, doesnt mean its right.

MasterOfPuppets
09-24-2010, 01:40 AM
did you really just say that trusting a professional expert's analysis is corny?

as opposed to a couch potato, tv watchers ramblings?

really?

lets not forget that your "expert" analysis would lead us all to believe that there is no difference between wearing a black or white jersey in 90 degree humid heat and that mozzerella nachos are to die for.

any credibility you are hoping to build with this thread is already sunk.

my advice to you is to quit trying so hard to stand out and just focus on blending in, because what you are currently doing as downbylaws "look at me" replacement simply isnt working.

:yawn:
http://smiliesftw.com/x/ohsnap1.gif :sofunny:

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 01:42 AM
im not downbylaw.

im not even arguing with you.

there is no argument.

you are simply wrong. your facts are wrong and your opinions are misguided.

simple as that. you can say a player wearing a white yersey will make them hotter than a black jersey in 100 degree heat or you can say heath miller is overrated.

just because that may (or may not) be your opinion, doesnt mean its right.

Great job misleading...just childish.

SteelCurtain0815
09-24-2010, 01:45 AM
He had a good year last year but not everything is about statistics.

The years that they didn't like his stats we weren't allowed to use stats.

It is all opinion regarding what type of TE someone prefers...no big deal.

He may still develop into what I prefer.

I would just like to see more prominence in the red zone
better separation...causing mismatch nightmares
some deeper receptions.

If he can go a little deeper and also be targeted more in the Red Zone and still keep his 77% completion percentage, he will be a beast. All this is contingent on his ability to get open in these areas or be so dominant that 1 v 1 is open and he can win a toss up pass.

Heath is never going to be able to create separation. He's just not quick or fast enough. What he does is sit in the holes of a defense until our QB finds him.
I am going to make a list of my top TEs based off production. By production, I don't mean stats, I mean how they produce for their teams.

1.) Vernon Davis- He is asked to do a lot of things for the 9ers. He is their best weapon on offense and causes a lot of double teams, which opens it up for other players on their team to make plays. He also run blocks effectively.
2.) Jason Whitten- Great run blocker and always seems to get open. He is somewhat of a security blanket type too, but he is a redzone machine. When the Cowboys need a play, Romo is looking for Whitten.
3.) Antonio Gates- Doesn't have the speed he use to, but still causes double teams, and you aren't going to guard him with a LB. The best red zone TE in the game. He is a big part of the Chargers offense.
4.) Dallas Clark- Clark is not asked to block, therefore you can't judge him on that, although he is a decent blocker. Clark is another TE who isn't going to be covered by a LB because he has great speed and always seems to get separation. He is very good after the catch as well.
5.) Tony Gonzales- Another red zone machine. He always gets open down in the red zone and brings down the jump balls because of his great athleticism. The guy has been doing it for years, and no one does it better.

All of these guys produce greatly for their offenses, whether it be in the red zone, making a big play after the catch, or making a block that helps spring a run. This is why Miller doesn't make the list of top 5. He isn't a big threat in the red zone and he gets absolutely no YAC. Teams can cover him with just a LB because they don't have to worry about him making a big play. He doesn't call for double teams. The one thing he does better than a few of these guys is run block, but it's not like he's opening up huge holes for our running backs or like our running game is dominant by any means. Another way I judged this list is which team would miss their TE the most if he were injured, and frankly, I don't think we would miss Heath near as much as the teams above would miss their TEs.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 01:48 AM
Heath is never going to be able to create separation. He's just not quick or fast enough. What he does is sit in the holes of a defense until our QB finds him.
I am going to make a list of my top TEs based off production. By production, I don't mean stats, I mean how they produce for their teams.

1.) Vernon Davis- He is asked to do a lot of things for the 9ers. He is their best weapon on offense and causes a lot of double teams, which opens it up for other players on their team to make plays. He also run blocks effectively.
2.) Jason Whitten- Great run blocker and always seems to get open. He is somewhat of a security blanket type too, but he is a redzone machine. When the Cowboys need a play, Romo is looking for Whitten.
3.) Antonio Gates- Doesn't have the speed he use to, but still causes double teams, and you aren't going to guard him with a LB. The best red zone TE in the game. He is a big part of the Chargers offense.
4.) Dallas Clark- Clark is not asked to block, therefore you can't judge him on that, although he is a decent blocker. Clark is another TE who isn't going to be covered by a LB because he has great speed and always seems to get separation. He is very good after the catch as well.
5.) Tony Gonzales- Another red zone machine. He always gets open down in the red zone and brings down the jump balls because of his great athleticism. The guy has been doing it for years, and no one does it better.

All of these guys produce greatly for their offenses, whether it be in the red zone, making a big play after the catch, or making a block that helps spring a run. This is why Miller doesn't make the list of top 5. He isn't a big threat in the red zone and he gets absolutely no YAC. Teams can cover him with just a LB because they don't have to worry about him making a big play. He doesn't call for double teams. The one thing he does better than a few of these guys is run block, but it's not like he's opening up huge holes for our running backs or like our running game is dominant by any means. Another way I judged this list is which team would miss their TE the most if he were injured, and frankly, I don't think we would miss Heath near as much as the teams above would.

Excellent analysis.

I'll add that I do think we would miss Heath if not replaced with another good TE. That is not the question here.

I do think Heath is top 10...maybe I was a little over the top...but some of the new talented TE out there could do well in our offense (with Ben).

SteelCurtain0815
09-24-2010, 02:01 AM
[QUOTE=SteelKnight;847813]Excellent analysis.

I'll add that I do think we would miss Heath if not replaced with another good TE. That is not the question here.

I know that's not the question, but it is the answer. lol. If that makes sense? What I meant was those 5 TEs do more for their teams, therefore would be missed by their teams more than what Heath would for our team. Don't get me wrong, I love Heath and wouldn't trade him for any other TE in the NFL because I am a loyal Steelers fan. But, people need to take off their Steelers goggles and realize there are better TEs than Heath Miller.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:05 AM
[QUOTE=SteelKnight;847813]Excellent analysis.

I'll add that I do think we would miss Heath if not replaced with another good TE. That is not the question here.

I know that's not the question, but it is the answer. lol. If that makes sense? What I meant was those 5 TEs do more for their teams, therefore would be missed by their teams more than what Heath would for our team. Don't get me wrong, I love Heath and wouldn't trade him for any other TE in the NFL because I am a loyal Steelers fan. But, people need to take off their Steelers goggles and realize there are better TEs than Heath Miller.

I got what you said. my point was that some will say "Are you saying Spaeth can easily replace Miller?"...and miss the point. If replaced, he would need to be replaced by a TE that IS ranked high.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:20 AM
On the expert thing, let me make something clear. Football is a game. It is for entertainment. Most of us are not experts and even the "experts" have differences of opinion. It is a damn game. I watch it for fun. it is not my profession.

I should be able to share opinion on a game.

It's no different than a movie and someone sharing their opinion and some other person saying you are not an actor so you can't have an opinion or this film critic said this so your opinion doesn't count. It's entertainment.

Sure we are often wrong but that's part of the fun. Sometimes when you share an opinion, people change your mind. I don't like to argue for argument sake. If I'm not open to hearing other opinions, i wouldn't even start a thread.

Maybe that's just it. I don't aim to be an expert message board person on a game. The message board is not my life.

Discussing football, what we would do etc. IS JUST FOR FUN. So if I come up with a mock draft, for example, I don't need to hear that I'm not an expert draft scout or Mel Kiper disagrees so everything you said is useless.

If you don't get what I'm saying, there is nothing more I can offer.

SteelCurtain0815
09-24-2010, 02:22 AM
Oh yeah, I could definitely see how people could turn that around on me. Another thing I don't get with some people on this board is dogging stats and saying people like you and me are fantasy football gurus or whatever. An offenses job is to score touchdowns. If any of the 5 TEs I mentioned are catching 8-10 TDs a year they are helping their teams more than what Heath Miller is helping our team. Someone might say it's because we run the ball when in the red zone, and that's true. However, how many times in the last year or two have we ran successfully in the red zone? Not very many, and Heath's blocking obviously isn't helping that cause, nor is it hurting it. What I'm saying is all of these TEs put up better stats than Miller and their teams are more successful in the red zone whether it be running or passing.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:34 AM
Oh yeah, I could definitely see how people could turn that around on me. Another thing I don't get with some people on this board is dogging stats and saying people like you and me are fantasy football gurus or whatever. An offenses job is to score touchdowns. If any of the 5 TEs I mentioned are catching 8-10 TDs a year they are helping their teams more than what Heath Miller is helping our team. Someone might say it's because we run the ball when in the red zone, and that's true. However, how many times in the last year or two have we ran successfully in the red zone? Not very many, and Heath's blocking obviously isn't helping that cause, nor is it hurting it. What I'm saying is all of these TEs put up better stats than Miller and their teams are more successful in the red zone whether it be running or passing.

Hey...i agree with you. Be careful though. Heath had a good statistical year last year so now everyone wants to use only that year. It is hypocritical to say stats don't matter when they don't support you then say it is open and shut when they do.

What actually inspired this thread was seeing some of the new talented TEs and thinking that some of them would fit well in our offense. Chis Cooley would be great with Ben. TEs that create mismatches help the team too.

Anyway, like you, I like Miller. I just can think of others we would be fine with.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:53 AM
Oh yeah, I could definitely see how people could turn that around on me.

Anyway. Just be careful. Some people forget that we are all Steeler fans and may agree on 95% of stuff.

I think I'm taking tomorrow off from the boards...lol

SteelCityMom
09-24-2010, 02:55 AM
Hey...i agree with you. Be careful though. Heath had a good statistical year last year so now everyone wants to use only that year. It is hypocritical to say stats don't matter when they don't support you then say it is open and shut when they do.

What actually inspired this thread was seeing some of the new talented TEs and thinking that some of them would fit well in our offense. Chis Cooley would be great with Ben. TEs that create mismatches help the team too.

Anyway, like you, I like Miller. I just can think of others we would be fine with.

I don't think it's that people only want to use his stats from last year, it's just those were his best stats.

His stats have gotten progressively better though. For example, his '07 year was his best year statistically (up to that point) when he was ranked 13th. '08 he was ranked 12th. Last year he was ranked 9th. Given the trend there, that means he's doing nothing but getting better as an all-around player...and each year is coming out better than the one before.

A lot of people aren't just looking at one year and saying that because it was good that means he's the best now...they're noticing a distinctive trend in his play. And yes, I know overall stats don't tell the whole story...but it needs to be pointed out that since Heath has been in the league he's never ranked below 18th overall ('06), So overall that means he was middle of the pack his first few years, and then did nothing but progress.

There will most likely be a big drop-off in his production this year. You can almost look at it as if he's missing 4 games as well since the offense (so far) seems to be unable to produce.

he gets absolutely no YAC

He's gotten much better in that respect as well. He was 8th in the league last year in YAC.

I'm not saying that Heath is the greatest right now, or that other TE's wouldn't fit well into our system, but you could debate this about any position on any football team and no one would ever agree. He's definitely well above mediocre though in all facets of his game and I'm thankful we've held onto him. I just wish he'd be used more in the passing game.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 03:14 AM
I don't think it's that people only want to use his stats from last year, it's just those were his best stats.




I'm not saying that Heath is the greatest right now, or that other TE's wouldn't fit well into our system, but you could debate this about any position on any football team and no one would ever agree. He's definitely well above mediocre though in all facets of his game and I'm thankful we've held onto him. I just wish he'd be used more in the passing game.

Yeah...I overstepped with middle...maybe he's about 9th. Also mediocre doesn't cover the same thing because that perception might be among all TEs rather than among starting TEs. A mediocre TE might not get to start. For example, a QB can be the 15th best and still be pretty good because there are more QBs than just starters. Among all QBs he might be high.

With the stats, people never wanted to use them before last year. Why? Because his greatness couldn't be measured by stats. It's not only because it is the most recent ...if they were no good, people wouldn't care. We've seen the same old tricks and childish arguing techniques. When the stats don't support you, stats are just for fantasy losers...when they do, use them. It is true not everything is measured by the stats. It would seem prudent to use them but with caution and reasoning.

For example as the stats turn out, his average catch is from 4.9 yards. That would affect catching percentage (77%).

People have trouble processing things so I'm sure if he makes a winning catch at some point in the season, someone will say something stupid like "And you said he was no good." which I did not say but there will be other TEs catching TDs this season too. If he steps up and gets beastly consistently, I will even say it.

CLStan7
09-24-2010, 03:37 AM
Heath is top 3

CaliStillersFan
09-24-2010, 03:57 AM
With the play of our line, it doesn't matter if he's good at blocking or not, they need help and it's why he hasn't had a bigger role in the passing game. There was a play last week the Titans rushed 3 and we had 6 back blocking and the Titans still got the sack. With Flozell out there on the right side, Heath needs to help as much as can even it just chipping Flozell's guy as he goes by. I think as a pass catching TE, he's as good as any other in the league.

zulater
09-24-2010, 05:34 AM
You and me both.

I saw the opener and Heath sealed the edge on the Mendy run that lead to the win.

To imply that he isn't much of a blocker would be in the same category as saying Hines isn't much of a blocking receiver.

Perhaps Knight is confusing Heath with Spaeth?

Sorry Knight, but this is one of the dumbest threads I've seen in quite awhile.

ditto, I couldn't even try to be polite in the face of such stupidity. I understand non Steeler fans not realizing Heath's full worth. But if you're a Steelers fan and watch every game, and in the case of many of us give each game a second or third look through the miracle of Tivo, and you watch the same plays over and over to see what worked, and what didn't work and why you'd come to understand exactly how valuable Heath is to this team. I know other tight ends block, but they're not asked to block defensive end's and LB's man up like Heath is. Yeah Gonzalez looks good jamming up a safety occasionally, or even chipping a LB, but ask him to block Aaron Smith or Lamarr woodley one time straight up and see what happens.

smaki21
09-24-2010, 06:35 AM
Wow.. I am glad I have this account and remembered the username and password, I really didnt feel like creating a new one just to post right now. Reading this thread is freakin pissing me off!

SteelKnight, I fully agree with you and your opinion on this. I'd have to sit down and look for awhile and really evaluate the tightend position of all teams to really be able to rank Heath Miller. I would say around 9 or 10 though + or -2 at any given time.

Yes Heath Miller is a good tightend. Is he a great tightend? Possibly, its borderline but I wouldnt exactly say hes great. If he was so good than it wouldnt matter what the 'media' says, he would still get coverage. Someone a few pages back said he was elite.. Now thats just rediculous.. How many QB's are elite? Peyton, Tom, Drew are usually all thrown into the mix, than there is some mention of Ben and Rivers, and than some other QBs who have a good year usually are more talked about. If Heath is so elite why is he almost never discussed by announcers or analyst in the same light as, Gates, Witten, Clark, Gonzalez, Davis, Shiancoe, Finley, Cooley, Shockey, and Winslow? I mean Heath does get some praise, as does everyone out there, some analyst will like him and talk about that person. And nobody cares what the analyst/announcers think anyways but its what we all hear and we keep going back for more so Im just making a point....

Heath Miller is OVERRATED on this message board, but UNDERRATED to all the media.

If you dont think we could have anyone of those tightends and not find similair production with ELITE/borderline elite top 5 QB in Ben than your just being rediculous. And oh whats that he has crap for stats now because we dont have Ben right now?? Well think about this for a second, ZACH Miller for the MIGHTY OAKLAND AFRAIDERS, had 20 more yards last season in 10 less receptions. So Im gonna go head and say that any other tightend Ive listed so far and Ill throw in Todd Heap, Owen Daniels, and Greg Olsen also, would all be perfectly worthy replacements for Heath Miller.

With Ben throwing to any of those guys, Im sure some of them would surpass Heaths recieving marks easily by far, and the rest would be damn right near around it. And please do not get me wrong, I love Heath and I think he fits our offense damn near perfectly, and hey, you cant have just mega superstars at every single position. And right now at tight end we have a very good/almost great Heath Miller. He is surehanded and that is my favorite thing about him. Ben relys on him to use his body and get little space for the short 4-7 or 8 throws to get a first down. Or the simple quick out for 4 yards after the receivers clear, the linebacker only has a shot for the tackle..get nowhere near the ball.

And please take a moment to ponder this zupalata or whatever your name is, the guy whos been the most brainwashed by his undying love for all things steelers lol. But lets be realistic right now, when we play the Chargers what is our defensive gameplan?? Its to put our superstar safety on there superstar tightend and try to neutralize him.. Because that tightend is THAT good. If Heath was on another team and LeBeaus plan to stop him was to play Polamalu on him similairily to how he deals with Gates. I would go absolute ape balls everywhere. We need our best superstar doing something better than covering one of the other teams PRETTY GOOD players. So whoever said Heath Miller was 'Elite', please wake up and be realistic. And make this a much more enjoyable experience for those of us who wish to discuss things without our black and gold shades on.

So there is my arguments for the receiving aspect. For the blocking aspect, Im just gonna go ahead and assume that if he was such a super fantastic blocker, than why do we not utilize him much much more so, ala motion to the hole and snap it, lead blocker style. And we do do that I know, but I know that I would be a lot more excited when I see that play starting and him leading the hole if I was use to him blowing up linebackers which is what you guys make it sound like. You guys are making it sound as if Heath could just take on woodley like 8 or 9 times out of 10 no problem on the pass rush, or that he can just clobber the likes of suggs with ease.

I am going to make a note to watch the tightend blocking a little more closely from heath and from other tightends around the league this weekend and the next few weeks too, so I can try to spot what makes a good blocking tightend.

Does any of you guys care to make a list of the top 5 or 10 blocking tightends in your opinion? Or just whoever you think the very best is and than Heath and a few who you think are comparable? Cause Ill admit I have never really focused TOO much on Tightend blcoking when I go back and watc the game again or a few plays again. The blocking I usually look for is lineman and what I even more look for is the running back to find the hole and have patience to hit the right one, or the smarts to know there isnt gonna develop a big one and to just try to plow forward for 1 or 2 or 3 additional yards than just dancing around (mendenhall problem sometimes) but this is a story for another post anyways..

But yea please list a few tightends you guys feel comparable to Heath in blocking.

Im gonna say for receiving, and blocking, I would take the following tightends over Heath: GATES, CLARK, GONZALEZ, DAVIS, WITTEN.

I feel like all those would be a definite noticeable improvment. And some that are really close that I think just might be better or really close to equal is, DANIELS, COOLEY, FINLEY (I really like Jermichael a lot and he is only 23, I think he is gonna be a good one for sure), SHIANECOE

Now for possibly equal or slight drop off (but notice not HUGE drop off) I would take WINSLOW(which could be a far better receiver but I just dont like his work ethic, drops, blocking etc), CELEK, Z. MILLER, HEAP, SHOCKEY, KELLER, and hell lets put PETTIGREW in here also.

And you guys gotta THINK, about who some of these guys Ive listed are gettin thrown to by, whoever Raidres QB is at times last year lol, Jason Campell, Mark Sanchez, Alex Smith... With ben replacing those guys you have to assume production goes up.

But ya thats it and Im out for now, Ill be back later to check any responses. And atleast one of you Heath is the greateast guys please make a list of a couple of guys you compare Heath to in blocking, because that can be the only way you are thinking he is such a great tightend, because I know I listed atleast 10 more dynamic pass catchers and a few of them with far less talentd quartbacks throwin em the ball. I know he is sure handed and gets the first downs and Ben relies on him a lot and I FREAKING LOVE HEATH MILLER HE IS ONE OF MY FAVORITE STEELERS BUT BE REAL GUYS... COME ON NOW. LOL

pz out

P.S. I messed up when posting accidently clicked tab and enter and it quick posted.. My bad its late here and Im tired

zulater
09-24-2010, 06:39 AM
Wow.. I am glad I have this account and remembered the username and password, I really didnt feel like creating a new one just to post right now. Reading this thread is freakin pissing me off!

SteelKnight, I fully agree with you and your opinion on this. I'd have to sit down and look for awhile and really evaluate the tightend position of all teams to really be able to rank Heath Miller. I would say around 9 or 10 though + or -2 at any given time.

Yes Heath Miller is a good tightend. Is he a great tightend? Possibly, its borderline but I wouldnt exactly say hes great. If he was so good than it wouldnt matter what the 'media' says, he would still get coverage. Someone a few pages back said he was elite.. Now thats just rediculous.. How many QB's are elite? Peyton, Tom, Drew are usually all thrown into the mix, than there is some mention of Ben and Rivers, and than some other QBs who have a good year usually are more talked about. If Heath is so elite why is he almost never discussed by announcers or analyst in the same light as, Gates, Witten, Clark, Gonzalez, Davis, Shiancoe, Finley, Cooley, Shockey, and Winslow? I mean Heath does get some praise, as does everyone out there, some analyst will like him and talk about that person. And nobody cares what the analyst/announcers think anyways but its what we all hear and we keep going back for more so Im just making a point....

Heath Miller is OVERRATED on this message board, but UNDERRATED to all the media.

If you dont think we could have anyone of those tightends and not find similair production for an ELITE/borderline elite top 5 QB

But regardless of what media

don't you just love when people go under a different user name to agree with themsleves?

good go Steelknight. :flap:


:chuckle:

smaki21
09-24-2010, 07:21 AM
don't you just love when people go under a different user name to agree with themsleves?

good go Steelknight. :flap:


:chuckle:

Check my join date zulater.. It was a nice try though bud :applaudit:

steelax04
09-24-2010, 08:11 AM
I think someone was looking for Rec Yards for 2009:

1 Antonio Gates (TE, SD) 1,157
2 Dallas Clark (TE, IND) 1,106
3 Jason Witten (TE, DAL) 1,030
4 Brent Celek (TE, PHI) 971
5 Vernon Davis (TE, SF) 965
6 Kellen Winslow (TE, TB) 884
7 Tony Gonzalez (TE, ATL) 867
8 Zach Miller (TE, OAK) 805
9 Heath Miller (TE, PIT) 789
10 Jermichael Finley (TE, GB) 676

Ruffneck525
09-24-2010, 08:54 AM
what kills me is overyone wants to look at pure numbers.. but not take into account our offense.

put heath miller in the Indianapolis offense in dallas clark's place and his recieving numbers go way up.

put dallas clark and antonio gates in our offense and their numbers go down alot.

heath is an excellent blocker.. your a fool if you don't recognize that.

being a great tight end means you Catch passes and Block very well.. not just catch passes and look flashy.

zulater
09-24-2010, 09:54 AM
Check my join date zulater.. It was a nice try though bud :applaudit:

Join date has nothing to do with it. If you're who I believe you are you could have joined under different names way back then. Happens on mb's all the time.

You see I just don't see a great number of Steeler fans getting up in the morning outraged at how Steeler fans overrate Heath Miller. Also you're arguments were all the same as the "other guy" and your syntax was the same so 2+2= ?


:coffee:

zulater
09-24-2010, 10:10 AM
what kills me is overyone wants to look at pure numbers.. but not take into account our offense.

put heath miller in the Indianapolis offense in dallas clark's place and his recieving numbers go way up.

put dallas clark and antonio gates in our offense and their numbers go down alot.

heath is an excellent blocker.. your a fool if you don't recognize that.

being a great tight end means you Catch passes and Block very well.. not just catch passes and look flashy.

Anyone old enough to remember the 2005 draft would remember how there's was a lot of skepticism about the pick of Heath because historically the Steelers just didn't incorporate the tight end into the passing game. Heath caught 39 passes as a rookie in 2005 which was almost as many than all Steelers tight ends combined for in the 2003 and 2004 seasons put together! (40 catches culmative for all Steelers TE's in the 03-04 season combined) So did the Steeler's drastically change their playbook and reduce the TE's responsability in the run game or as an extra pass blocker? Hell no. Heath had every bit as much responsitility as a blocker as Mark Bruener. Heath changed the culture of the tight end in Pittsburgh without damaging what it's first responsability has always been. Ask any of his coaches, his teammates or any other coaches in the AFC North and they'd tell you that Heath is unique in his ability to both pose a threat as a receiver, and also take on your DE or LB for the ground attack.

SteelCurtain0815
09-24-2010, 10:11 AM
Join date has nothing to do with it. If you're who I believe you are you could have joined under different names way back then. Happens on mb's all the time.

You see I just don't see a great number of Steeler fans getting up in the morning outraged at how Steeler fans overrate Heath Miller. Also you're arguments were all the same as the "other guy" and your syntax was the same so 2+2= ?


:coffee:

You're a moron. While this guy said a lot of the same things I said, no one is going to take the time to create a new name just to back themselves up. He probably just didn't read my post.

zulater
09-24-2010, 10:16 AM
You're a moron. While this guy said a lot of the same things I said, no one is going to take the time to create a new name just to back themselves up. He probably just didn't read my post.

People do it all the time.

btw numb nuts, I didn't think that was you, I'm sure Steelnight is Smaki.

zulater
09-24-2010, 10:19 AM
I guess the Steelers should dedicate a first day pick to upgrading te TE position, medicorce as it is?

SteelCityMom
09-24-2010, 10:19 AM
Time to chill out everyone.

Important things to note in this thread:

-Nobody thinks Miller is terrible, just think that there are some TE's who are better.
-Most everyone has agreed that Miller is in the top 10-15 in the league, at the very least
-Nobody has made accounts in '07 to agree with themselves in '10
-As Steelers fans, I'm pretty sure one thing everyone here can agree on is that we're lucky to have Miller as our TE.

zulater
09-24-2010, 10:25 AM
Time to chill out everyone.

Important things to note in this thread:

-Nobody thinks Miller is terrible, just think that there are some TE's who are better.
-Most everyone has agreed that Miller is in the top 10-15 in the league, at the very least
-Nobody has made accounts in '07 to agree with themselves in '10
-As Steelers fans, I'm pretty sure one thing everyone here can agree on is that we're lucky to have Miller as our TE.

No but you can create a different account, have that one linger and at the right momenst so oh yeah, there's an openoing to agree with myself on a day I'm getting my ass handed to me.

I had some problems at OSMB once upon a time, regestered, got my problem cleared up and lo and behold I had two seperate accounts on the same board. Never bothered to use it, but I seen it done many many times.

zulater
09-24-2010, 10:40 AM
OK mom I'll stand down now. But Jeez with all the things going on with this team why the F would a Steeler fan go start a thread tearing into the TE and our perception of him? Like I said on a different message board a long time ago about Hines Ward, I don't know or care if he's considered elite or where he ranks among his peers in the sense of year end honors or statistically accomplishment. All I know is that Hines ( and Heath) do more to make their team win than virtually any player you could substitute in their place througout the league. As Mike Singletary says, "I want winners!" and with Heath we've got a winner.

mikegrimey
09-24-2010, 10:57 AM
Edited to avoid further conflict.

zulater
09-24-2010, 11:03 AM
Edited to avoid further conflict.

Mike I probably stepped over the line a little on this thread.I apoligize to you or anyone else I've offended. :hatsoff:

You made some good points, but I'm still not in the same camp with you guys.
I'm just a little surprised that a steeler fan doesn't appreciate what i consider to be the overall value of Heath and would go to lengths to express such a view? :noidea:. I guess we'll just agree to disagree and move on to another topic. :tt04:

SteelCurtain0815
09-24-2010, 12:35 PM
Mike I probably stepped over the line a little on this thread.I apoligize to you or anyone else I've offended. :hatsoff:

You made some good points, but I'm still not in the same camp with you guys.
I'm just a little surprised that a steeler fan doesn't appreciate what i consider to be the overall value of Heath and would go to lengths to express such a view? :noidea:. I guess we'll just agree to disagree and move on to another topic. :tt04:

You have taken everything out of context. Did you read any of the posts? No one once said they didn't like Heath as our TE or even that they would have someone else as our TE rather than Heath. All that anyone said was that there are better TEs out there. I am grateful we have Heath, because good TEs are hard to come by, and I wouldn't trade him for anyone because he was born to play for the Steelers, but he's simply not an elite TE.

Third Rail
09-24-2010, 12:37 PM
If anything, Heath Miller is UNDERrated. All you ever hear is Antonio Gates this, Tony Gonzalez that.

Hate to use on my old stand-by argument but what the hell... how many rings do they have?

smaki21
09-24-2010, 01:03 PM
I am not SteelKnight I can assure you this. I dont know how to prove it? but Im glad I made this account years ago so I didnt have to make a new one, and I like the way SteelKnight discusses football. Ive seen him on the steelers.com board too and like his posts there but from what I gather its a kind of bunk board there and pretty lame to try to join and get goin so I never join there, but now that I am on here and remembered my username and password, I will start posting somewhat regularly because I have a lot of opionons and thoughts and discussions Id like to have, and Im sure Ill have differing viewpoints than SteelKnight sometime soon here, and that would be rediculous to type this out and go through all that trouble and playing a double agent style trying to trick you. And I dont really see anyone going so as low to make another account to back them up so it looks like he has more firepower. Why would he wait until page 11 to do that anyways? This is not a juvenile message board I would hope... Like things like that go on at gamefaqs.com (a videogame website with a rather large board membershiop, I often go to the NFL board but dont really post because everyone is so juvenile and into fads and memes, and a lot of users there have multiple accounts to troll with and just generally mess with eachother, but its pretty funny and entertaining nonetheless) But anyways I was up late partyin and couldnt sleep so I read the first thread all the way through because reading generally makes me sleepy and I didnt have a book in my room or a lamp. So yeah I made a long post early in the mornin.

I love Miller as our tightend, and he does everything asked of him, and very good at that. but my point is just that hes not as Elite as some would like to think.

The point of the thread is not to bash Miller and say he sucks etc.. The point is just to discuss football in depth. I think this is an interesting topic, because I do see a TON of love for miller on the various Steelers message boards I read. But fact of the matter is the guys on the "not elite" side are just saying there is about 5 or so tightends that are head and shoulders above Miller, well maybe just head and a shoulder or just a shoulder ya know. And than besides the 5 or so that are ahead of him, there is probably 5-10 more that could replace him with minimal drop off or even a slightly better receiving production.

Once again the point is not to bash, just to discuss. I am willing to discuss anything Steelers related and have a realistic opionin.

This reminds me of some of my IRL friends.. I got 2 that I can really discuss football with, and understand quite a bit of skills of different players, offensive and defensive schemes, and whatever else. And than the rest are pretty much just homers fans who are completely black and white with there analysis of teams, or usually rather just there own team cause they dont like to discuss football quite in depth as the couple of us and know quite a bit about every single team. They are more just like yeah Broncos are bad ass this year!!! Or they suck this year!!! And the convo doesnt really get much past that.

No, we dont need to spend a first round draftpick on a tightend, unless a Rashard Mendenhall type situation happend upon us and we could score an Elite tightend, and even than I think there are other positions of need before that, namely OL, DL, CB. But if we were picking in the 20's and could score a Vernon Davis type athletic freak tightend, I would not be opposed to that. Having a gamebreaker type at tightend makes the defense always have to be accountable and could improve our redzone offense. But to take a 1st round tightend at this point would be a bad move unless he was a real stud. I wouldnt be opposed to upgrading spaeth with a 2nd or 3rd rounder. But Spaeth doesnt see many balls anyways or doesnt do too huge of an impact blocking, so itd be somehwat of a wasted pick when we need quality players at other positions.

Once again noone is saying Heath sucks. He is very good actually, and would be a welcome addittion to ANY team Im sure.

And I would think any topic should be open for discussion unless its completely rediculous, but Id rather discuss it like I do with my 2 friends that I enjoy discussing football with, rather than blatant homerism of 'HOW CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT OUR GUY HE IS THE BEST!!!"

I would say that saying that about Heath would be about equal to claiming Ike Taylor to be a top 5 corner, or Santonio a top 5 receiver, or Ben to be top 2 quarterback equal with manning or something. So yeah, anyone that wants to discuss things in the future Ill be here from now on to do so, because I love my Steelers and love talking about them :blah::blah::blah:

Sorry for the long posts I make fellas Ill try to start cutting them a little shorter cause I know theyere hella long.


But cheers everyone:drink::drink::tt04::tt04:

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:15 PM
But ya thats it and Im out for now

Excellent, excellent post. That is exactly what I was thinking. Don't expect people to reason with you without getting emotional though.

The post was very well thought out. I think if many of the good TEs had Ben, they would look great.

I didn't mean to cause as much drama. I agree about 9th is right. I think there would have been less drama ad I said that rather than middle of the pack (but I meant among first string TEs...not among all TEs).

kiuaswarrior
09-24-2010, 02:20 PM
Wow, this thread has disected eveything there is to disect about Heath Miller.

I'm no expert, but i'd consider him just outside a top 5 TE. (blocking, pass catching, etc)

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:25 PM
I think someone was looking for Rec Yards for 2009:



We know he had a lot of yards last year. Everyone is so anxious to post last years isolated stats. In previous years stats were irrelevant because of how we use him. I think many TE would be fine with Ben.

what kills me is overyone wants to look at pure numbers.. but not take into account our offense.

put heath miller in the Indianapolis offense in dallas clark's place and his recieving numbers go way up.

put dallas clark and antonio gates in our offense and their numbers go down alot.

heath is an excellent blocker.. your a fool if you don't recognize that.

being a great tight end means you Catch passes and Block very well.. not just catch passes and look flashy.

I don't think it is about "looking flashy". If you are a terror on the defense creating mismatches and a beast in the red zone and can go deep, it is not just for style points.

I disagree that gates and Clark would be less productive on our team. They are good players who can get separation, catch etc. Ben would love to have them. I doubt our running game would be any worse.

I also disagree that if you putt miller on SD he is instantly a Gates. No way.
There is a lot involved...being able to create separation, being able to win a jump ball when only one person is on you, being fast enough to go deep, being powerful enough to box people out for the ball, excellent route running, (for Clark-speed).

This is all opinion but is definitely guessing when people say some of the elite TEs would suck here.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:28 PM
You're a moron. While this guy said a lot of the same things I said, no one is going to take the time to create a new name just to back themselves up. He probably just didn't read my post.

He must be delusional if he thinks we are all the same. Why do people have to go to such childish tactics to argue?

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:33 PM
Time to chill out everyone.

Important things to note in this thread:

-Nobody thinks Miller is terrible, just think that there are some TE's who are better.
-Most everyone has agreed that Miller is in the top 10-15 in the league, at the very least
-Nobody has made accounts in '07 to agree with themselves in '10
-As Steelers fans, I'm pretty sure one thing everyone here can agree on is that we're lucky to have Miller as our TE.

Exactly...plus you are a moderator and you can probably see our IP addresses and we are probably in different states etc. lol

I like your back to the future thing though...lol

I agree with everything you said. I wish I had put him about 9th and I had the option to edit but I wanted to keep the general integrity of the first post.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:37 PM
Hey zulater, I had put you on ignore but someone else quoted you so I saw what you said and it seems you are being nice now. Sorry for ignoring you. I just wanted to discuss this without unnecessary insults. I'm going to remove the ignore.

I hope we can all be friends. We are all Steeler fans. We just disagree on a topic.

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-24-2010, 02:41 PM
Out of all the experts, fellow Steelers fans, other football fans, and various other mixed people contributing to this thread, SteelKnight and smaki21 seem to be about the only ones that seem to think that Heath Miller is not an elite Tight End.

But this argument was won by the "Heath IS an elite TE" crowd about a page and a half back when somebody actually posted his stats in comparison to the other tight ends that are supposedly better than him....he was top ten in every category, top five in some, and if you take a composite of all those categories, clearly, we are talking about an elite player.

This is nothing personal against the folks that don't think Miller is elite-- y'all are entitled to your opinions. But at this point, I'd have to say, that is all they are-- opinions. Neither the facts, stats, intangibles, nor experts seem to agree with any of your analyses of Heath Miller's play.

Miller is not the best TE in the league, but damn near.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:47 PM
I am not SteelKnight I can assure you this. I dont know how to prove it? but Im glad I made this account years ago so I didnt have to make a new one, and I like the way SteelKnight discusses football. Ive seen him on the steelers.com board too and like his posts there

Welcome. I'm not actually on the Steelers.com board but I'm glad another Steelknight is representing. I spend way too much time on THIS board as it is...lol

Yeah...I like eat. Your posts are well though out. With an elite TE, one on one is open...especially in the Red Zone. For Heath, he would actually have to be open with space probably. If Rivers sees one on one he gets excited and tosses it up and Gates will get it.

Heath is very good though. I wish they would seed him a little deeper and see if he can get open and maintain the 77% catching percentage. When I say that, people will say we have Wallace. He doesn't need to go as deep as Dallas Clark but maybe 20 yards rather than the 4.9 yard average catch (when you remove his average YAC from his average YPC).

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-24-2010, 02:47 PM
I also disagree that if you putt miller on SD he is instantly a Gates. No way.
There is a lot involved...being able to create separation, being able to win a jump ball when only one person is on you, being fast enough to go deep, being powerful enough to box people out for the ball, excellent route running, (for Clark-speed).

This is all opinion but is definitely guessing when people say some of the elite TEs would suck here.

What exactly is it that Gates does that has you so impressed with him?

The reason why Gates gets thrown to so much, is because, who esle does Phillip Rivers have? Lameomdfiojapojdfoje Nannee? Vincent Jackson was never that good. Patrick Crayton? Chris Chambers was nothing to write home about either.

All Gates does is run the same basic, underneath patterns every play, taking advantage of the receivers going deep (drawing the coverage downfield) and him being covered by a LB or a Dlineman dropping back into coverage. He isn't particularly a great blocker. He rarely runs downfield farther than his usual 15 yard routes.

Miller has never had as many balls thrown his way because Ben has had Hines Ward, Randle El (in his prime), Santonio Holmes, and Mike Wallace. We have a blanaced offense with multiple weapons. But the few instances when the ball is thrown his way-- he delivers, as the stats clearly show a page and a half back.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 02:56 PM
Out of all the experts, fellow Steelers fans, other football fans, and various other mixed people contributing to this thread, SteelKnight and smaki21 seem to be about the only ones that seem to think that Heath Miller is not an elite Tight End.

But this argument was won by the "Heath IS an elite TE" crowd about a page and a half back when somebody actually posted his stats in comparison to the other tight ends that are supposedly better than him....he was top ten in every category, top five in some, and if you take a composite of all those categories, clearly, we are talking about an elite player.

This is nothing personal against the folks that don't think Miller is elite-- y'all are entitled to your opinions. But at this point, I'd have to say, that is all they are-- opinions. Neither the facts, stats, intangibles, nor experts seem to agree with any of your analyses of Heath Miller's play.

Miller is not the best TE in the league, but damn near.

Hey Riddle,

No problem that we disagree on this one. I'm not sure whether you have been keeping up but I have said about 9th now. I would say he is a "very good" TE.

Elite is more of a threat in the red zone...creates mismatches because a LB can't cover and a safety has trouble too...can create separation, can win a jumpbal if covered 1 v 1 etc.

Let's not get obsessed with the stats all of a sudden because Heath had one good statistical year last year. People have been saying the same thing for years but never wanted to use stats when it didn't support them. Stats were for fantasy nerds who can't truly appreciate value etc. I think a lot of TEs would do well with Ben and I think Heath may not do as well with some worse QBs.

Basically, I think he is very good and you think he is elite...no problem. We are still cool. We'll agree on some other topic.

SteelMom has pointed out that he has been getting better...fine. If he BECOMES elite this year when Ben comes back, I'll certainly admit it. I'd love that.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 03:04 PM
What exactly is it that Gates does that has you so impressed with him?

The reason why Gates gets thrown to so much, is because, who esle does Phillip Rivers have? Lameomdfiojapojdfoje Nannee? Vincent Jackson was never that good. Patrick Crayton? Chris Chambers was nothing to write home about either.

All Gates does is run the same basic, underneath patterns every play, taking advantage of the receivers going deep (drawing the coverage downfield) and him being covered by a LB or a Dlineman dropping back into coverage. He doesn't get crap for yards after the catch. He isn't particularly a great blocker. He rarely runs downfield farther than his usual 15 yard routes.


C'mon Riddle? lol Did you even watch the Monday night opener? Gates is a beast. He demanded triple coverage at times. He can get separation and when he doesn't have that, one v one is open for him if it is tossed high. He is a beast in the Redzone. His YAC is more than Miller. Ben would love Gates and Wallace and the others would too because the attention he demands would free them up.

He runs all different routes. You are being funny...lol "same routes" A LB on gates is an instant mismatch.

I know you like Heath but please be fair.

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-24-2010, 03:11 PM
Hey Riddle,

No problem that we disagree on this one. I'm not sure whether you have been keeping up but I have said about 9th now. I would say he is a "very good" TE.

I hear you. I have read your other posts around here for quite some time- I know you aren't a troll or anything-- is just a good football discussion.

Elite is more of a threat in the red zone...creates mismatches because a LB can't cover and a safety has trouble too...can create separation, can win a jumpbal if covered 1 v 1 etc.

I think Heath does all of the above to perfection, except being a consistent red zone threat. Again though, I don't have the time to really dig into that one. Not sure if it is because he isn't a redzone threat, or if he just doesnt get thrown to that much because Ben has always had so many other great targets to spread the ball around to.

Like I was saying, Gates for example, gets thrown to alot because he is probably Rivers' best option, as opposed to the relatively mediocre WRs the Chargers always seem to keep around.

Also, another thing that affects Heath's production (besides our substandard Oline play the last few years, where he has had to become an extra blocker), is Ben's tendencies. On most of the passing plays I see, Miller is ALWAYS open underneath, but Ben likes to go deep, as does his enabler offensive coordinator.

Let's not get obsessed with the stats all of a sudden because Heath had one good statistical year last year. People have been saying the same thing for years but never wanted to use stats when it didn't support them.

I agree, depending exclusively on stats in football arguments is foolish. Stats don't take game situation, tendencies, scheme, or anything else into account.

But, in this context, yes, folks have ben saying for years that Miller is an elite TE, he just didn't have the stats to show (for most of the reasons I have already cited). So now that he DOES have the stats AS WELL, how does that not help him out in this debate?

Stats were for fantasy nerds who can't truly appreciate value etc.

I agree, to an extent.

I think a lot of TEs would do well with Ben and I think Heath may not do as well with some worse QBs.

This much should be obvious, but says nothing about Heath.

Basically, I think he is very good and you think he is elite...no problem. We are still cool. We'll agree on some other topic.

I guess we may have a disagreement in how we define "elite". I personally do not like labels like "elite", and prefer to look at raw performance and let it speak for itself. I would put him in the top 5 of the league, although not the best-- I do think there are a couple guys ahead of him.

I see Miller as an almost "Ward-type". He will rarely post numbers that put him in the top five for his position, but he is one of the best all-around athletes in the league, who can probably play a couple different spots on the roster. because the Steelers have so much talent in their roster, they rarely, if ever expect any single player to carry the team or make a much huger contribution than the rest of the players. The Steelers have a lot of overlap in talent. But when his number is called, he has ALWAYS delivered. I can onky think of about a handful of instances when the ball was thrown his way and he failed to be the one coming down with it.

SteelMom has pointed out that he has been getting better...fine. If he BECOMES elite this year when Ben comes back, I'll certainly admit it. I'd love that.

He was already elite last year, just by the numbers. I thought that was established already.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 03:17 PM
Let me just compare something.

Heath Miller had his best statistical year last year.

On third down Miller had 14 catches and only 8 of them were for 1st down (6 he stopped short of the marker).

On third down Gates had 21 catches and all 21 were for 1st downs.

Overall, Gates had 61 first downs last year. Miller had 37 (and that was his best EVER).

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-24-2010, 03:21 PM
Crap, sorry, gotta go (am at work). Great debate though-- I'll be back later.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 03:38 PM
I hear you. I have read your other posts around here for quite some time- I know you aren't a troll or anything-- is just a good football discussion.



I think Heath does all of the above to perfection, except being a consistent red zone threat. Again though, I don't have the time to really dig into that one. Not sure if it is because he isn't a redzone threat, or if he just doesnt get thrown to that much because Ben has always had so many other great targets to spread the ball around to.

Like I was saying, Gates for example, gets thrown to alot because he is probably Rivers' best option, as opposed to the relatively mediocre WRs the Chargers always seem to keep around.

Also, another thing that affects Heath's production (besides our substandard Oline play the last few years, where he has had to become an extra blocker), is Ben's tendencies. On most of the passing plays I see, Miller is ALWAYS open underneath, but Ben likes to go deep, as does his enabler offensive coordinator.



I agree, depending exclusively on stats in football arguments is foolish. Stats don't take game situation, tendencies, scheme, or anything else into account.

But, in this context, yes, folks have ben saying for years that Miller is an elite TE, he just didn't have the stats to show (for most of the reasons I have already cited). So now that he DOES have the stats AS WELL, how does that not help him out in this debate?





He was already elite last year, just by the numbers. I thought that was established already.

I is I knew how to do the point by point quoting like you guys do.

Here is the thing about Red Zone- If we were doing well in the Red Zone you could say that Ben has so many other targets that Heath is not needed. Because we are doing so poorly in the Red Zone, obviously Heath is not getting open or they would have been throwing him the ball. The fact that we passed more than run means he at least got looks.

The same can be said about 3rd downs. Our 3rd down percentage sucked. If he could get open more and go beyond the sticks, why wouldn't they target him? He got 8 first downs for the team on 3rd down compared to Gates 21. Gate never failed to go beyond the sticks. He failed 6 times.

We were "pass happy". People like to say in a pass happy offense he would do even better. That was our most pass happy and he had his best statistical year but still he only had 37 first downs compared to Gates 61.

It's hard to say things like they don't throw to him unless we know for a fact that he is getting open.

I can't agree that Rivers has no other weapons. He has always spread the ball around. Keep in mind last year they had VJ. Gates gets open or gets mismatches...that's why they pass him the ball.

Your point of holding Heath back to block is a good one. I saw that sometimes last year but he went out an ample amount of times.

Basically, Heath's best year ever would be like one of Gate's bad years...no biggie.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 03:41 PM
Crap, sorry, gotta go (am at work). Great debate though-- I'll be back later.

Cool Riddle. Catch ya later. Let's keep it friendly.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 04:06 PM
SCMom. Sorry for my poor job doing the poll.

Is it possible to change it to the following?

1. He's the Best...even better than Gates.
2. He's top 5
3. He's in the 7-12 range
4. He's in the 14-19 range
5. He's terrible

I'm sure like that, we would get more reasonable numbers. Many people did not want to put top 5 but because they wanted top 10 they could not vote for 13-19. I think a lot would put him in #3.

MasterOfPuppets
09-24-2010, 05:19 PM
Best Tight Ends in N.F.L.: The Top 10 List


Friendly Disclaimer: The following list is influenced largely -Ė but not strictly -Ė by film study of all 32 teams from the 2009 season. It is not a prediction for the 2010 season, though the future isnít ignored. Stats werenít acknowledged, but players with poor numbers generally donít make top 10 lists anyway. Vague enough for you? Top 10 lists tend to be. Thatís why most of you will have no trouble finding some disagreement with what youíre about to read.
10. Jermichael Finley, Green Bay Packers
By New Yearís 2011, heíll be at the top of this list.
9. Chris Cooley, Washington Redskins
What Dallas Clark would look like with slightly less speed and mediocre players around him.
8. Heath Miller, Pittsburgh Steelers
Superb all-around blocker and smooth soft-handed safety valve in the pass game.
7. Kellen Winslow, Tampa Bay Buccaneers
By far the best route-runner at his position.
6. Jason Witten, Dallas Cowboys
A consummate professional.
5. Dallas Clark, Indianapolis Colts
Versatility makes him the catalyst among Peyton Manningís offensive options.

4. Owen Daniels, Houston Texans
Essentially a wide receiver who gets matched up on linebackers and safeties. Amazing fluidity and soft hands. Trying to rebound from torn A.C.L.
3. Vernon Davis, San Francisco 49ers
A little maturity goes a long way. Somewhat limited route runner but the most dominant seam receiver in the game. Can be a punishing blocker, too.
2. Tony Gonzalez, Atlanta Falcons
After 13 seasons, it feels about time to move him down the rankings. Problem is, there simply isnít any evidence to justify that.
1. Antonio Gates, San Diego Chargers
A matchup nightmare underneath and down the seams. Isnít a bad blocker either.
Wait, What AboutÖ.
Jeremy Shockey, New Orleans Saints
Gutsy player, solid talent, but his teams win with or without him.
Brent Celek, Philadelphia Eagles
A poor blocker. Largely a product of mismatches created by Phillyís faster weapons.
Dustin Keller, Jets
Strictly a receiver, which is fine in the Jetsí offense, but must improve explosiveness to reach the upper tier. Donít bet against him.
Greg Olsen, Chicago Bears
Too many mistakes. And with Mike Martz now running the offense, youíll soon forget about him.

http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/best-tight-ends-in-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/

stb_steeler
09-24-2010, 05:28 PM
:tt04::tt02::tt:
http://i831.photobucket.com/albums/zz240/stbsteeler/08_02_CLEdh_miller2_96106.jpg

Steelerfreak58
09-24-2010, 05:29 PM
Heath Miller is underutilized.

Fire Arians
09-24-2010, 06:00 PM
Heath Miller is underutilized.

this

ETL
09-24-2010, 06:03 PM
There's only one TE I would want besides Heath.


Jermichael Findley

OX1947
09-24-2010, 06:35 PM
Is this pathetic thread really on page 15? Seriously?

pete74
09-24-2010, 06:43 PM
why is it pathetic? i like the debate. i feel heath is probably number 6 in the nfl but alot of members think he is the best simply because he is a steeler. i love heath but im not going to kid myself and say he is the best simply because he is a steeler

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 10:05 PM
http://fifthdown.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/best-tight-ends-in-n-f-l-the-top-10-list/

Nice list Master. It looks good. There are a few newcomers that might push their way on there by the end of the year.

My thought is I want a little more than a Safety valve. If our run game was top 5 again, I would have trouble complaining but we are mediocre. I'm not blaming Heath for that but there was this baseball player or football player who said the team would suck without him and they said we finished last with you and we can finish last without you ...thank you. lol So i feel we can have mediocre running without whatever blocking he offers. I would prefer Cooley. With Ben, Cooley would be really good.

SteelKnight
09-24-2010, 10:29 PM
Heath Miller is underutilized.

They tried to use him more last year. I agree it if he would catch some more medium range passes or be more of a Red Zone target he could become elite but how do we know he is getting open? Maybe he is having trouble getting separation. The true beast TE when covered by a LB or average safety ave a mismatch and can win a jump ball.

There's only one TE I would want besides Heath.


Jermichael Findley

I'm sure you would be fine with Gates, Davis, Clark etc if we had them.

why is it pathetic? i like the debate. i feel heath is probably number 6 in the nfl but alot of members think he is the best simply because he is a steeler. i love heath but im not going to kid myself and say he is the best simply because he is a steeler

I don't think that guy is much into words and friendly communication. It's OK. That's how some grew up. Whoever is louder or curses more wins. lol

I think I summarized it best by saying Miller's best year (last year) is like one of Gate's worst years. Hopefully that is not his peak but it may be because there is going to be a push towards less passing.

I think that list that master put up is pretty good (ignoring new talent) but i want more than a safety valve. I'm not saying Greg Olsen, Aaron Hernandez, Kellen Winslow, Zach Miller, or Shiancoe, are necessarily better but all of them may do great with Ben in our offense. They are all talented (and not on that top 10 list). TE is becoming competitive now. You have players like Jermain Gresham, Dustin Keller and Mecedes Lewis (16.2 YPC) who might step it up this year.

We'll wait until the end and see. They can always blame it on Arians. If he is getting open and they are ignoring him, he needs to be more vocal. If he wanted the ball more, I'm sure he could talk to Arians and Ben ...or just be quiet.

Of couse, at the end, if the numbers do not look good, (even prorating for the games without Ben) the same people who say it is open and shut with the numbers will say numbers are useless. For me if he could just get that 3rd down stat of 14 catches and only 8 for first downs(6 misses) during his best season up to gates 21 catches, 21 first downs (on 3rd down), that would be a huge improvement.

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-24-2010, 11:49 PM
Heya, back again.

They tried to use him more last year. I agree it if he would catch some more medium range passes or be more of a Red Zone target he could become elite but how do we know he is getting open? Maybe he is having trouble getting separation. The true beast TE when covered by a LB or average safety ave a mismatch and can win a jump ball.

Again, I think this is more a result of scheme and Ben's preferences. On almost any given play, Heath is usually wide open and waving for the ball, but we know Ben likes to go downfield. It is rare for Ben to actually use his checkdowns and safer, short-yardage options.

For those of us that do love Heath, it seems like he IS very underutilized. He doesn't seem to have any problems gettting separation or getting open. As for why he does not have more mid-range receptions, is again, I think a matter of scheme. The Chargers utilize Gates as one of their primary weapons in the passing game (whether this is a result of Gates' outstanding play, or the mediocre play from their receivers, or Rivers' preferences, or a combo of more than one), and he runs a wider variety of routes (besides the standard 15 yarders I accused him of earlier).

Again, someone who has the time might want to study that a little bit, beyond just the stats. I couldn't tell you for sure off the top of my head.

I'm sure you would be fine with Gates, Davis, Clark etc if we had them.

Of course. I personally feel Heath is a top 5 TE (again, not the best), but that does not mean I think those other guys stink, or necessarily that Heath is better than each and every one of them.

I think I summarized it best by saying Miller's best year (last year) is like one of Gate's worst years. Hopefully that is not his peak but it may be because there is going to be a push towards less passing.

Again, without looking more into schemes each team runs, what routes he is commonly running and how often they get thrown to, I'd have to say Miller makes the most of limited opportunities. The 3rd down conversion stats you provided ARE relevant.

I think that list that master put up is pretty good (ignoring new talent) but i want more than a safety valve.

Unfortunately, I think that is just the way Bruce Arians uses his TEs in his scheme (or as makeshift fullbacks). I kinda agree-- why should we spend so much money to pay all these receivers if we are just gonna throw to the tight end?


We'll wait until the end and see. They can always blame it on Arians. If he is getting open and they are ignoring him, he needs to be more vocal. If he wanted the ball more, I'm sure he could talk to Arians and Ben ...or just be quiet.

Heath Miller? More vocal? The only other guy on the team that is probably more soft-spoken is Polamalu....

Of couse, at the end, if the numbers do not look good, (even prorating for the games without Ben) the same people who say it is open and shut with the numbers will say numbers are useless. For me if he could just get that 3rd down stat of 14 catches and only 8 for first downs(6 misses) during his best season up to gates 21 catches, 21 first downs (on 3rd down), that would be a huge improvement.

I think you are fixating on the one single stat that supports your assertions about Heath. All of the other stats paint him as a solid top 5 TE. I think his #1 ranking in catching everything that was thrown at him is most telltale.

He has no control over what routes he gets told to run in Arians' scheme, he has no control over whether or not his goofy QB chooses to utilize him or try to force passes into little gaps downfield, he has no control over whether the Arians' schemes put him in position to make lots of yards after the catch or first downs. What he does have control over though, is catching the ball when it is thrown his way and getting yards after the catch (using your own stats, Gates YAC was an impressive 6.4 and #1 ranking, and Miller's was an impressive 5.5 and #2 ranking).

His lack of 3rd down conversions could be the product of too many things besides a lack of talent and it is the only one area that you can prove he has been deficient in, and I just don't think that is enough to warrant pulling him from the top 5 when he puts up such great performances in pretty much every other category.

As has been pointed out already, there are TEs that get more yards after the catch, have more redzone completions, or are better blockers, but few or none of them can say they are as well-rounded a package and as good in all those categories.

zulater
09-25-2010, 02:02 AM
You have taken everything out of context. Did you read any of the posts? No one once said they didn't like Heath as our TE or even that they would have someone else as our TE rather than Heath. All that anyone said was that there are better TEs out there.

that's not really true. These glowing testimonials ring a bell? Heath Miller is pretty average in my opinion.

He is a good possession TE though personally, I think he is a rather piss-poor blocker. Not sure where you've seen or heard praise about his blocking,

He is no special blocker.

Meanwhile I'd rather have a Gates, Gonzalez, Cooley, Witten, Clark...even this new guy Hernandez from the Patriots looks like he can get YAC and he gets open.

If we can ever find an elite TE that can stretch the field and is a terror in the Red Zone, we should take him.

There are a lot of non-famous TEs who are better.


I'm not saying he is bad. I'm saying he is a middle of the pack guy.

so did you read these posts?

Certainly looks to me as if the suggestion is being made that the position could and maybe should be upgraded. don't berate other for lack of reading compresion when your own is somewhat suspect








I am grateful we have Heath, because good TEs are hard to come by, and I wouldn't trade him for anyone because he was born to play for the Steelers, but he's simply not an elite TE.

That's your opinion. I disagree. I think if he's capable of putting up elite numbers if he was untilized differently. Put it this way I think if you switched him with Dallas Clark, Peyton Manning's season wouldn't suffer any ( imo), but I'm not sure the same would be true of the Steelers with Clark here. Because I think with our offensive line defecencies, combined with Arains offense, the tight end has to be a reasonable good blocker. And to the best of my knowledge Clark isn't.

MikeHaullace
09-25-2010, 02:09 AM
Heath Miller will never be the TE Mark Bruener was. :toofunny:

btaylor
09-25-2010, 08:02 AM
he looks like hes running with cement boots on

scsteeler
09-25-2010, 08:50 AM
Heath Miller could have better numbers, He is unselfish and will do what needs to be done to help the Team Win. Of course you can name others that have better numbers than Heath but as a all around team player give me Heath.


Heath plays within the System he is asked to and is asked to do a lot run and pass blocking and at times used in the passing game. If you want to see him more productive in Numbers talk to the O.C. Bruce about using him more in the passing game.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 10:41 AM
Why in the world is this thread still going?

First of all, you want downfield threats? They are called wide receivers. Any team running tight ends 20-30 yards downfield consistantly is having problems in the WR department. Think Dallas with Witten up until Austin stepped up. No thanks.

Here's some stats for you. In 2008, Heath was targeted 65 times, he caugh 48 for a 73% catch rate there were only one or two tight ends with similar catch rates. He totaled 514 yards and averaged 10.7 yards per catch. By comparison, the leader that year was Tony Gonzalez (a likely HoFer). He had a 62% catch rate, and averaged 11 yards per catch. The big difference? He was targeted 155 times! That gave him a total yardage of 1058. If Heath would have been targeted 155 times, at his catch rate and yardage average, that would have been 113 catches, for 1209 yards. Clearly Pro-Bowl and even HoF numbers over a career.

All of his other years match up similarly. So, all we need to do is get him 60-70 more throws per year and he might be regarded as the greatest tight end ever. So, where do we pull them from? Hines, one of the greatest receivers of all time and a likely Hall of Famer if he can continue his pace for 1-2 years? Wallace, the explosive receiver that led the league last year in YPC and gives us our greatest downfield threat that I can remember? At least better than Homes and Burress in that regard? Perhaps we should take 5-6 carries a game away from Mendenhall, whom many expect to be a top 5 back in this league? So, who do we take those touches away from so that you can revel in your fantasy football statlines without regard to gameplan, spreading the ball around, etc...

The fact is that Hines, Mendenhall, Wallace, and Ben wouldn't have anywhere near their numbers if Miller wasn't so good at his job.

SteelCurtain0815
09-25-2010, 12:34 PM
That's your opinion. I disagree. I think if he's capable of putting up elite numbers if he was untilized differently. Put it this way I think if you switched him with Dallas Clark, Peyton Manning's season wouldn't suffer any ( imo), but I'm not sure the same would be true of the Steelers with Clark here. Because I think with our offensive line defecencies, combined with Arains offense, the tight end has to be a reasonable good blocker. And to the best of my knowledge Clark isn't.

So what you are saying is Heath would put up Clark kind of numbers if he were playing with the Colts? I'm not buying it for a second. Clark is much more of a receiving threat than Heath is. Clark has speed and Manning knows he's going to have a mismatch if a LB is on him. Heath doesn't create that mismatch because most LBs are faster or just as fast as Heath is. I don't believe if you throw Heath on the Colts team or the Chargers team he would put up numbers like Gates and Clark. Chargers and Colts have Gates and Clark running routes that fit their abilities like deep seem routes, or anything deep because they can get behind coverage. Heath would be used exactly how he is on our team because that's his best ability to find the hole in a defense, sit in it, and make a possession catch. Nothing wrong with that, but he's not going to put up the receiving numbers like Gates and Clark when that's all that's asked of him to do.

SteelCurtain0815
09-25-2010, 12:56 PM
Why in the world is this thread still going?

First of all, you want downfield threats? They are called wide receivers. Any team running tight ends 20-30 yards downfield consistantly is having problems in the WR department. Think Dallas with Witten up until Austin stepped up. No thanks.

Here's some stats for you. In 2008, Heath was targeted 65 times, he caugh 48 for a 73% catch rate there were only one or two tight ends with similar catch rates. He totaled 514 yards and averaged 10.7 yards per catch. By comparison, the leader that year was Tony Gonzalez (a likely HoFer). He had a 62% catch rate, and averaged 11 yards per catch. The big difference? He was targeted 155 times! That gave him a total yardage of 1058. If Heath would have been targeted 155 times, at his catch rate and yardage average, that would have been 113 catches, for 1209 yards. Clearly Pro-Bowl and even HoF numbers over a career.

All of his other years match up similarly. So, all we need to do is get him 60-70 more throws per year and he might be regarded as the greatest tight end ever. So, where do we pull them from? Hines, one of the greatest receivers of all time and a likely Hall of Famer if he can continue his pace for 1-2 years? Wallace, the explosive receiver that led the league last year in YPC and gives us our greatest downfield threat that I can remember? At least better than Homes and Burress in that regard? Perhaps we should take 5-6 carries a game away from Mendenhall, whom many expect to be a top 5 back in this league? So, who do we take those touches away from so that you can revel in your fantasy football statlines without regard to gameplan, spreading the ball around, etc...

The fact is that Hines, Mendenhall, Wallace, and Ben wouldn't have anywhere near their numbers if Miller wasn't so good at his job.

It's a discussion. It's what you do on a message board. You're obviously intrigued otherwise you wouldn't be posting. We all know that Heath is a good TE and if Heath were elite, he would be getting that many more touches, but the fact is he's not. Gates, Gonzalez, and Clark get more balls thrown their way because they are there QB's go to guys, because they are that good. Heath is our third option as a receiving threat. Clark, Gates, and Gonzalez are first or second which is why they see more balls thrown their way. And it's not a problem that your TE is your best receiving threat, it's just a fact. It doesn't mean you have bad WRs, it means you have a gifted TE. We aren't going to take touches away from Mendenhall or Wallace or Ward because they are our best offensive threats. Not Heath Miller. I don't really get your argument? If you read the beginning of the thread, the main argument was whether or not Heath is elite.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 01:06 PM
Heya, back again.



Again, I think this is more a result of scheme and Ben's preferences. On almost any given play, Heath is usually wide open and waving for the ball, but we know Ben likes to go downfield. It is rare for Ben to actually use his checkdowns and safer, short-yardage options.

For those of us that do love Heath, it seems like he IS very underutilized. He doesn't seem to have any problems gettting separation or getting open. As for why he does not have more mid-range receptions, is again, I think a matter of scheme. The Chargers utilize Gates as one of their primary weapons in the passing game (whether this is a result of Gates' outstanding play, or the mediocre play from their receivers, or Rivers' preferences, or a combo of more than one), and he runs a wider variety of routes (besides the standard 15 yarders I accused him of earlier).

Again, someone who has the time might want to study that a little bit, beyond just the stats. I couldn't tell you for sure off the top of my head.



Of course. I personally feel Heath is a top 5 TE (again, not the best), but that does not mean I think those other guys stink, or necessarily that Heath is better than each and every one of them.



Again, without looking more into schemes each team runs, what routes he is commonly running and how often they get thrown to, I'd have to say Miller makes the most of limited opportunities. The 3rd down conversion stats you provided ARE relevant.



Unfortunately, I think that is just the way Bruce Arians uses his TEs in his scheme (or as makeshift fullbacks). I kinda agree-- why should we spend so much money to pay all these receivers if we are just gonna throw to the tight end?




Heath Miller? More vocal? The only other guy on the team that is probably more soft-spoken is Polamalu....



I think you are fixating on the one single stat that supports your assertions about Heath. All of the other stats paint him as a solid top 5 TE. I think his #1 ranking in catching everything that was thrown at him is most telltale.

He has no control over what routes he gets told to run in Arians' scheme, he has no control over whether or not his goofy QB chooses to utilize him or try to force passes into little gaps downfield, he has no control over whether the Arians' schemes put him in position to make lots of yards after the catch or first downs. What he does have control over though, is catching the ball when it is thrown his way and getting yards after the catch (using your own stats, Gates YAC was an impressive 6.4 and #1 ranking, and Miller's was an impressive 5.5 and #2 ranking).

His lack of 3rd down conversions could be the product of too many things besides a lack of talent and it is the only one area that you can prove he has been deficient in, and I just don't think that is enough to warrant pulling him from the top 5 when he puts up such great performances in pretty much every other category.

As has been pointed out already, there are TEs that get more yards after the catch, have more redzone completions, or are better blockers, but few or none of them can say they are as well-rounded a package and as good in all those categories.

Hey Riddle,

Can you PM me on how to do the individual quotes?

You made some good points.

About Ben not liking to use check downs...good point. I know he is not the only check down though because sometimes Moore was in there on 3rd down. They should at least have him run his route beyond the marker. LOL Blame Arians. That 4.9 yards average at time from catch is not swell. No wonder his catch percentage is 77%. I bet you Mwelde Moore's is 77% too. LOL Let's see if he can keep that percentage in the red zone and going deeper.

I am not trying to fixate on one stat. I think the 4.9 yards saftey valve average increases catching percentage (77%). Most of the stats for his best year ever had him top 10. For many stats like yardage and overall first downs (his best ever) he was about 9th. I've conceded and have said he is about 9th as a TE. Remember though, that was his best year ever. Will he be able to keep those up year after year or will will toss out stats again in the future. I know this year will be tough with no Ben for 4 games but I'm going to prorate the stats.

I know he is quiet but maybe we need some bravado.

Believe it or not, I do like Heath. All I can do is judge the final performance. I watch on TV and don't have film (or go to the real games) to know if he was "always open" as the TV focuses on the action. If he gets open so easily, he should be sent a little deeper. And e clearly must not be open in the Red Zones. I like TEs who can outrun LBs. Is that too much to ask? I'm going to look to see who they are using to cover Heath this week. Is it a LB, safety, 3rd CB, double team. Can he find the holes in the zones?

You know what I mean. Those great TE...they laugh when they are 1 v 1 in the end Zone. That's a TD. Not heath. He'll need space.

So I likeHeath.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 01:21 PM
That's your opinion. I disagree. I think if he's capable of putting up elite numbers if he was untilized differently. Put it this way I think if you switched him with Dallas Clark, Peyton Manning's season wouldn't suffer any ( imo), but I'm not sure the same would be true of the Steelers with Clark here. Because I think with our offensive line defecencies, combined with Arains offense, the tight end has to be a reasonable good blocker. And to the best of my knowledge Clark isn't.

I know these are all opinions but i believe Ben would love Clark. he can get open, creates mismatches and has the speed to go deep. There is no question Clark is a better receiver than Heath (IMO). You do know that Clark had 59 first downs for his team last year right? (Heath had his career best 37). He had 10 TDs and even had an 80 yard reception. Clark doubled his 3rd down receptions and more than doubled his 1st downs on 3rd down. No...our passing wouldn't suffer.

It's hard to comment on the running because we've been mediocre...would we fall from mediocre to bad with Clark instead of Heath, IDK...doubt it.

If we get back to top 5 running then it will be cool to accept that the reason Heath doesn't have the same production is because he's so busy making us a top running team.

If it is just utilization, fine, they we should use him differently...what a waste of talent...but I'm not so sure he is really creating the separation and mismatches. We are all guessing. With our horrendous 3rd down and red zone numbers, why would they not throw it to him if he is so open?

I'm not so sure he could replace Clark or Gates in their respective offenses.

Don't take this as me saying he's bad though.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 01:29 PM
Heath Miller will never be the TE Mark Bruener was. :toofunny:

Funny. At the time when I criticized Bruener, I got a response that he is one of the best blocking TEs in the league :blah::blah: and in Pittsburgh we emphasise the run. We don't want a catch happy TE who can't block (the always accuse the ones who can catch of not being able to block even though I know they are guessing. Can Vernon Davis block? Yup?). Everyone is so protective. Me, I was missing Eric Green. I like TEs that create mismatch nightmares where as soon as a LB is on them, they outrun the LB.

he looks like hes running with cement boots on

LOL. TEs who can outrun LBs and who can outbox safeties are good.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 01:38 PM
It's a discussion. It's what you do on a message board. You're obviously intrigued otherwise you wouldn't be posting. We all know that Heath is a good TE and if Heath were elite, he would be getting that many more touches, but the fact is he's not. Gates, Gonzalez, and Clark get more balls thrown their way because they are there QB's go to guys, because they are that good. Heath is our third option as a receiving threat. Clark, Gates, and Gonzalez are first or second which is why they see more balls thrown their way. And it's not a problem that your TE is your best receiving threat, it's just a fact. It doesn't mean you have bad WRs, it means you have a gifted TE. We aren't going to take touches away from Mendenhall or Wallace or Ward because they are our best offensive threats. Not Heath Miller. I don't really get your argument? If you read the beginning of the thread, the main argument was whether or not Heath is elite.

Thanks. I'm sure you addressed everything. I'm not going to bother to read comments if the person doesn't want to participate in the conversation. The thread is still going because we are discussing it peacefully without gang attack, insults, bullying, etc. If people don't want to participate, they just shouldn't.

I agree completely with what you are saying. I don't understand these people who are saying Rivers, Manning etc had no other receiving options. Gates demands double teams...he's that good. Clark is fast and it confuses you because you don't know whether to put your nickel defense or assign your safety and have less back up for the CBs because a LB can't keep up with Clark...and you safety better have top man v man coverage skills or he's beat.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 01:53 PM
Miller's only played 5 years. Let's compare his 5 years vs. Clark's


Targets Competions Catch % Yardage TD
Miller: 331 244 74 2721 26

Clark 293 179 61 2234 24


So Miller's been thrown to more, caught a much higher % of the balls thrown his way, got 500 more yards, and 2 more TD's in the same amount of time of their respective careers as your "elite" example.

:coffee:

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 02:03 PM
Miller's only played 5 years. Let's compare his 5 years vs. Clark's


Targets Competions Catch % Yardage TD
Miller: 331 244 74 2721 26

Clark 293 179 61 2234 24


So Miller's been thrown to more, caught a much higher % of the balls thrown his way, got 500 more yards, and 2 more TD's in the same amount of time of their respective careers as your "elite" example.

:coffee:

Please post your source...thanks. I would have to look into it.

You are including injury years and the number of games don't match up. Heath has only missed 2 games ...Clark has missed 13. I had to edit now that I found out this is not even the same years being compared. It is Heaths first 5 and Clark's first 5. An 11 game advantage is huge. lol

I'd have to look into it. It's off somehow.

SteelCurtain0815
09-25-2010, 02:07 PM
Miller's only played 5 years. Let's compare his 5 years vs. Clark's


Targets Competions Catch % Yardage TD
Miller: 331 244 74 2721 26

Clark 293 179 61 2234 24


So Miller's been thrown to more, caught a much higher % of the balls thrown his way, got 500 more yards, and 2 more TD's in the same amount of time of their respective careers as your "elite" example.

:coffee:

Did you take Clark's first five years compared to Heath's five year career or did you compare from 2005-2009 for both of them?

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 02:09 PM
Check out this little 4 yard dumpoff.
www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d814c8a72/Heath-Miller-Highlight-WK-13-vs-Raiders-2009
www.nfl.com/videos?videoId=09000d5d801d2368
www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-videos/09000d5d8157c3bb/Heath-Miller-Highlight-WK-17-vs-Dolphins-2009

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 02:10 PM
Please post your source...thanks. I would have to look into it.

You are including injury years and the number of games don't match up. Heath has only missed 2 games ...Clark has missed 7.

I'd have to look into it. It's off somehow.

www.nfl.com

SteelCurtain0815
09-25-2010, 02:11 PM
Links don't open for me.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 02:18 PM
Did you take Clark's first five years compared to Heath's five year career or did you compare from 2005-2009 for both of them?

Heath's first 5 (he's only been in the league 5 years) vs. Clark's first five.

And remember in your comparisons that Pittsburgh was the heaviest run offense in the league during Miller's first 3 years, and didn't go pass wacky until last year. At the same time the Colts have been a prolific passing team.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 02:20 PM
Links don't open for me.

Try now.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 02:28 PM
Miller's only played 5 years. Let's compare his 5 years vs. Clark's


Targets Competions Catch % Yardage TD
Miller: 331 244 74 2721 26

Clark 293 179 61 2234 24


So Miller's been thrown to more, caught a much higher % of the balls thrown his way, got 500 more yards, and 2 more TD's in the same amount of time of their respective careers as your "elite" example.

:coffee:

OK. Here are some real stats from Yahoo. I know you weren't intentionally trying to mislead by including injury years etc but it nonetheless turned out to be misleading.

We can use last year or if you want, we can use the past 3 years in which they both played the exact same number of games. Since we know Clark smoked heath last year which was Heath's best ever, I will use the last 3 years.

Receptions Clark 235, Miller 171 (advantage Clark)
Yards Clark 2570, Miller 1869 (advantage Clark)
Longest play Clark 80, Miller 41 (advantage Clark)
1st downs Clark 137, Miller 98 (advantage Clark)
TDs Clark 27, Miller 16 (advantage Clark)

Now...those numbers seem more reflective and they actually represent the same number of games (both missed 2) and no hidden injury year.
:coffee:

SteelCurtain0815
09-25-2010, 02:33 PM
Heath's first 5 (he's only been in the league 5 years) vs. Clark's first five.

And remember in your comparisons that Pittsburgh was the heaviest run offense in the league during Miller's first 3 years, and didn't go pass wacky until last year. At the same time the Colts have been a prolific passing team.

Ok, I figured that is what you did. Why didn't you do the last five or 3 years from the 2005-2009seasons? After all, we are talking about who is elite right now. Dallas Clark's stats for the last 3 years are 235 catches for 2570 yards and 27 TDs compared to Miller's 171 catches for 1869 yards and 9 TDs.

SteelCurtain0815
09-25-2010, 02:34 PM
OK. Here are some real stats from Yahoo. I know you weren't intentionally trying to mislead by including injury years etc but it nonetheless turned out to be misleading.

We can use last year or if you want, we can use the past 3 years in which they both played the exact same number of games. Since we know Clark smoked heath last year which was Heath's best ever, I will use the last 3 years.

Receptions Clark 235, Miller 171 (advantage Clark)
Yards Clark 2570, Miller 1869 (advantage Clark)
Longest play Clark 80, Miller 41 (advantage Clark)
1st downs Clark 137, Miller 98 (advantage Clark)
TDs Clark 27, Miller 16 (advantage Clark)

Now...those numbers seem more reflective and they actually represent the same number of games (both missed 2) and no hidden injury year.
:coffee:

Beat me to it

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 02:36 PM
Heath's first 5 (he's only been in the league 5 years) vs. Clark's first five.

That's even worse than I thought. You failed to point out that Clark missed 13 games over the same stretch where Heath missed only 2. That is an 11 game advantage. It's not fair.

Also, now you are working under a different premise. now you are saying that Heath may BECOME a Clark with more time but Clark has the advantage of more experience rather than comparing actual years. That's all speculation.

I disagree with this type of analysis.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 02:38 PM
Beat me to it

I'm glad you caught that first 5 year thing with Clark missing 13 games (almost a whole season). lol

Let's not talk about potential and having an edge because of experience. lol That's a lot of speculating. lol

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 02:44 PM
Ok, I figured that is what you did. Why didn't you do the last five or 3 years from the 2005-2009seasons? After all, we are talking about who is elite right now. Dallas Clark's stats for the last 3 years are 235 catches for 2570 yards and 27 TDs compared to Miller's 171 catches for 1869 yards and 9 TDs.

Before someone says you are tricking, you made a slight error. Heath had 16 TDs. You must have just included the final 2 for that stat...no biggie. It shows how much skipping a season can do...just like the 11 game advantage Heath had in those other stats.

I like Heath but i knew something was wrong with those numbers...lol His very best is like an elite TEs worst.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 02:50 PM
www.nfl.com

Is that "thrown to" stat really on NFL.com? Cool. I always want to see how many times a WR or TE has been targeted and I don't usually see it there.

Thanks.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 02:53 PM
Want to break it down by game> Fine.

During the same time frames of their careers, Dallas Clark averaged 33.3 yards per game. Heath averaged 34.8. Advantage Heath.

Dallas averaged 2.7 receptions per game, Heath averaged 3.1. Advantage Heath.

So even by game played, Heath still has out performed Dallas during the first five years of each of their careers, which is the only way that you can accurately compare and measure at this point, when the other guy has two more years on Heath, plus a team that airs it out 40-50 times a game.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 02:54 PM
Is that "thrown to" stat really on NFL.com? Cool. I always want to see how many times a WR or TE has been targeted and I don't usually see it there.

Thanks.

Actually, I grabbed that from Foootball Outsiders. Good site.

LukesDad88
09-25-2010, 03:00 PM
Which by the way, have a few interesting stats. In 2009 and 2007 they had Miller around 7th or so, on overall Value and Value per play, but in 07, he finished 4th in overall value and value per play.

Personally, I'd put him in the top 8 or so. I think he could have been higher on a different team that threw the ball more, but even then I'd place him at about a 6.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 03:01 PM
I should have also included 1st downs on 3rd down...an important stat.
Clark 46, Miller 29 (advantage Clark)

Miller only had 8 last year but in 2007 he had a respectable 14 which boosted his numbers. That was unusual for him so it might be inflated. In other years he's had, 1, 5, 8, and 7. What kind of numbers are these for an elite TE? That's 21 over a 4 year period. Clark had 19 last year alone. Gates had 21 last year alone.

SteelKnight
09-25-2010, 03:14 PM
Want to break it down by game> Fine.

During the same time frames of their careers, Dallas Clark averaged 33.3 yards per game. Heath averaged 34.8. Advantage Heath.

Dallas averaged 2.7 receptions per game, Heath averaged 3.1. Advantage Heath.

So even by game played, Heath still has out performed Dallas during the first five years of each of their careers, which is the only way that you can accurately compare and measure at this point, when the other guy has two more years on Heath, plus a team that airs it out 40-50 times a game.

That is attempting to make a different argument in saying that Clark is better but has more experience and Heath will catch up. I can't agree with that kind of analysis because it is just guessing. We are talking about how good they are now. It's not like he is a rookie (where it might be reasonable to say that). He's is a veteran. So let's talk about now.

Actually, I grabbed that from Foootball Outsiders. Good site.

Thanks. I hope it's free.

Which by the way, have a few interesting stats. In 2009 and 2007 they had Miller around 7th or so, on overall Value and Value per play, but in 07, he finished 4th in overall value and value per play.

Personally, I'd put him in the top 8 or so. I think he could have been higher on a different team that threw the ball more, but even then I'd place him at about a 6.

OK then. We are not that far off if you think 8th. I think he's about 9th. I think he would be about the same on some other team. While they might use him more in certain situation, he might not have the benefit of playing with an elite top 4 QB. There are many up and coming TE and talented TEs who could be more productive with Ben too. I don't think Miller could step in and replace Gates or Clark.

Greg Olsen or Zach Miller would do well in NE.

In past years he might have been 7th but at that time there were not as many talented TEs in the league. Some are stepping up and will be stepping up this year. Keep an eye out.

Heath will fall out of the top 10 and they will blame Ben so I will prorate his stats as 75% with anticipated fill of the 25% and if he does well, I will be more than happy to give him his credit. I am rooting for him...really.

NYC_Steeler
09-25-2010, 08:38 PM
My God, I can't actually believe that you are still obsessing about this - what kind of a supposed Steeler fan does nothing more than consistently knock his own players who's been identified as a great TE by some of the top NFL analysts? Every time anyone comes up with a good opinion about Heath, you knock him down - you attack with full gusto to make sure that anything positive about Heath is invalidated. What kind of a Steelers fan are you? Heath has been a great player for this team. He's taken some hard hits in truly difficult situations and has been a constant factor in the Steelers' success. Why do you have to attack him at every turn and put him down every chance you get? Whenever I've watched the Steelers on nationally televised games, they always mention Heath as being one of the best TEs in the NFL. I simply don't understand you - what kind of fan are you who consistently knocks down a great player who doesn't get into any trouble off the field, is a role model, and does whatever it takes to ensure his team succeeds? The guy has been acknowledged as a great TE - but your obsessive hatred of the guy is exhausting. Give it a rest already. Heath would be welcome on any team - we're lucky to have him. For the love of God, give it up already - you seem to be the only one who feels he's not a top 10 TE. There's only so many passes that can be thrown his way - esp with the great receivers we have and have had. I can understand all the negativity if he were lousy - like Limas "Hands-of-Stone" Sweed, but he's not - he's been consistently great when he's been called upon. Like I said, give it a rest already.

MikeHaullace
09-25-2010, 10:44 PM
:blah::blah: Bruener,:blah::blah: and in Pittsburgh :blah::blah: I was missing Eric Green. :blah::blah:

I am hoping you did indeed catch the sarcasm in my post. :)

Eric Green was my favorite all-time SteelersTE until Heath came along.

Riddle_Of_Steel
09-25-2010, 11:34 PM
Hey Riddle,

Can you PM me on how to do the individual quotes?

Uh....how do you send a Private Message? Do I have to have a certain number of posts to be able to? I don't seem to have that option (or is just a PEBKAC error LOL).

Anyhow, I just click the Quote button at the bottom of the post I want to reply to and then just highlight and bold the parts I want to reply to (you also have to copy and paste the quote headers in [ ] at the start and end of each part to let it know what part is a quote and what part you are writing).

You might not want to start doing it-- apparently, I have aggravated people in other forums with my bold/not bold posting style....and have found myself on the receiving end of some "Which of these is the most annoying Steelers poster?" threads and polls elsewhere....

About Ben not liking to use check downs...good point. I know he is not the only check down though because sometimes Moore was in there on 3rd down. They should at least have him run his route beyond the marker. LOL Blame Arians. That 4.9 yards average at time from catch is not swell. No wonder his catch percentage is 77%. I bet you Mwelde Moore's is 77% too. LOL Let's see if he can keep that percentage in the red zone and going deeper.

I honeslty think this is about 90% of the crux of the matter. Scheme. This whole debate smacks to me of the many debates I have had to get into on other message boards with folks trying to say Ben sucks compared to Tony Romo, Phillip Rivers, Peyton Manning, etc. etc. because he doesn't post the same gaudy fantasy stats as those guys. It is all about how he is used, and whether he delivers in the limited opportunities he is given.

I am not trying to fixate on one stat. I think the 4.9 yards saftey valve average increases catching percentage (77%).

I would hope so-- didn't his completion percentage exceed the next runner up by about 10%? That's pretty huge.

Most of the stats for his best year ever had him top 10. For many stats like yardage and overall first downs (his best ever) he was about 9th.

But again, stats are misleading when you don't take all the other things into account. Fact of the matter is, if he does not get thrown to, or is given shorter routes to run, he simply won't have the yardage and number of first downs that guys like Gates or Clark have. But again, we have to look at what he does with the opportunities given to him. He ranks in the top ten or top five, or THE top in almost every other category.

I've conceded and have said he is about 9th as a TE. Remember though, that was his best year ever.

Welll, even though Ben rarely throws to him, when we went pass-happy last year, that has to equate to at least a few more catches and stats for Miller.

If he gets open so easily, he should be sent a little deeper.

I agree somewhat, but keep in mind who our offensive coordinator is.....he likes the deep ball.

Someone else said it best a few posts back-- when a team has to start sending their TE 20-30 yards downfield, that means there is something seriously wrong with their WR corps (the Chargers and Gates). Like I was saying, with so many other great weapons that are designed and trained to be downfield threats, who do we take catches aways from so that Miller can get his 100+ catches per season like Dallas Clark or Antonio Gates? Do we sttrip Ward of some of his responsibilities? Do we throw to Miller underneath instead of the wide open Mike Wallace downfield?

A TE is traditionally, supposed to be a short-yardage, high percentage, dump option for the QB, not a downfield threat. Why try to smash the square shaped peg into the circle shaped hole?

And e clearly must not be open in the Red Zones. I like TEs who can outrun LBs. Is that too much to ask? I'm going to look to see who they are using to cover Heath this week. Is it a LB, safety, 3rd CB, double team. Can he find the holes in the zones?

Honestly, after re-watching some of our SB XLIII run on DVD this last weekend, I paid more attention to Heath. One of the main reasons why he has not been so much of a red zone threat since Arians became our O coordinator-- he often gets stuck with blocking duties in the red zone because we have been so pathetic at running the ball in those situations (and for whatever reason, although we went pass-happy,we always try to run it in in golaline situations-- again, consult Arians). A lot of plays, he ends up in the backfield as an extra fullback. The few times he gets thrown to in the red zone (when he is actually playing the part of a TE, not an extra edge blocker or FB), he almost always comes down with it. Besides Ward, he is the most reliable set of hands on the team.

Matter of factly, I recall years ago, when Cowher first drafted him, a lot of us felt he was badly underutilized, because Cowher only used him as a REDZONE TARGET, which he excelled at in his rookie season and 2nd year (without looking up any stats), but did not get many balls thrown his way in other situations.

It is all about the scheme he plays in and how they choose to utilize him. You can bet that if they threw the ball his way 120 times a season like the other "elite TEs", they would not be able to hold Miller's jock. But even in our most pass happy season, Ben throws it about 30-40 times per game tops, and Miller only gets thrown to about 70 times a season.

SteelKnight
09-26-2010, 12:08 AM
I am hoping you did indeed catch the sarcasm in my post. :)

Eric Green was my favorite all-time SteelersTE until Heath came along.

If that "my God" NY person says anything useful, let me know. I won't waste my time reading those being melodramatic about opinions about a game. lol

SteelKnight
09-26-2010, 12:36 AM
Uh... Miller only gets thrown to about 70 times a season.

Thanks. I get it now.

By the way, Miller had about 98 looks last year. He caught 76. A lot of them are short dump off safety valve catches...that's why the first downs are pretty good but not through the roof.

To be fair, it might have something to do with them using him on shorter routes but again, if he has the heart and passion and wants to do more, he can speak to the coaches. Being too quiet can be a problem.

I don't buy that excuse about too many weapons. Like I said...we were failing in 3rd downs and Red Zone. If we were doing well that would make sense. He may just have a hard time getting open. His 8 first downs on 3rd down is pretty weak.

That's the easy thing. Blame Arians.

I can't say what Heath's potential is because I don't know. I only know what he has produced. I would feel comfortable with any of the top 15 TEs with no problem.
I'd like to see him step up when Ben comes back. He is no rookie. This is season 6.

No. He wasn't ahead of the next person by 10%. I think Zach Miller caught the same percentage (rounded to 78%).

Thanks for the discussion. For what he does, he could be replaced by any of the top 15 TEs. About what he could do, I'm tired of hearing that argument. Time to man up. Vernon Davis asks for the ball. Heath should WANT the ball and if he is so nice that he doesn't care, maybe that's a flaw.

If run blocking is going to be his forte, hopefully we do better as a team running.

Let Mwelde Moore be the safety valve. The passes don't have to be 30 yards but some 12-20 yarders (without YAC) would be good. Teams do this when they see a LB on a TE because a TE can outrun a LB.

It's no big deal...he's alright...or even "very good"...just not elite (as of yet).

zulater
09-26-2010, 06:17 AM
The vote's 53-10 in favor of Heath being among the league's better TE's. You're not swaying the masses with your continued monologue SK.. I understand you think we're a bunch of blindly loyal homers, but I think you're wrong. I think you're the one missing the forrest through the trees, not us.

No one comes on this or any other Steeler's message board proclaiming the brilliance of Max Starks, Larry foote, Brett Keisel, Ryan clark etc... We're perfectly capable of accepting the fact that not all steelers starters are elite or near elite. But as is true in any aspect of life there's a thing called nuance. You either understand the nuance of a particuliar situation or you don't. And there's ceertain players on any team that you just can't grasp their overall value without having some grasp of the nuance of the situation. Heath Miller, along with Aaron Smith, Troy Polamalu, Hines Ward, and Big Ben are players that in my opinion who's worth is much greater than what the numbers tell you they are. I readily understand and accept that non Steeler fans don't watch the Steelers enough to grasp the full value these players have to the team. In other words if limited to the black and white of stats, I can't explain how these players are truly elite. but they are nonetheless, or at least to about 90% of the fanbase that's paying attention they are.

So who's right and who's wrong? The 85% that think he's elite, or the 10-15 who don't? Well to answer that i think you just have to look at the Steelers record with these players in the lineup. The Steelers record of success to me is as much a result of identifying elite or near elite core players to build the team around. In my opinion the Steelers have singled out Heath as one of those core players. And to me that speaks volumes and says way more about the situation than anything any of us could possibly say.




I guess that's all I have to say at the moment. Oh yeah one last thing, Go Steelers! :tt:

SteelKnight
09-26-2010, 04:10 PM
The vote's 53-10 in favor of Heath being among the league's better TE's. You're not swaying the masses with your continued monologue SK.. I understand you think we're a bunch of blindly loyal homers, but I think you're wrong. I think you're the one missing the forrest through the trees, not us.

No one comes on this or any other Steeler's message board proclaiming the brilliance of Max Starks, Larry foote, Brett Keisel, Ryan clark etc... We're perfectly capable of accepting the fact that not all steelers starters are elite or near elite. But as is true in any aspect of life there's a thing called nuance. You either understand the nuance of a particuliar situation or you don't. And there's ceertain players on any team that you just can't grasp their overall value without having some grasp of the nuance of the situation. Heath Miller, along with Aaron Smith, Troy Polamalu, Hines Ward, and Big Ben are players that in my opinion who's worth is much greater than what the numbers tell you they are. I readily understand and accept that non Steeler fans don't watch the Steelers enough to grasp the full value these players have to the team. In other words if limited to the black and white of stats, I can't explain how these players are truly elite. but they are nonetheless, or at least to about 90% of the fanbase that's paying attention they are.

So who's right and who's wrong? The 85% that think he's elite, or the 10-15 who don't? Well to answer that i think you just have to look at the Steelers record with these players in the lineup. The Steelers record of success to me is as much a result of identifying elite or near elite core players to build the team around. In my opinion the Steelers have singled out Heath as one of those core players. And to me that speaks volumes and says way more about the situation than anything any of us could possibly say.




I guess that's all I have to say at the moment. Oh yeah one last thing, Go Steelers! :tt:

Yeah. Go Steelers.

I think the problem with the poll is a lot of people wanted to put Heath below five but not as low as 13 so they decided to go with top 5. I place him about 9th.

No problem. I don't hate Heath. I like him. I just think for what he does for us, he could be replaced by any of the top 15 TEs. Each would give us different advantages. I think Heath is very good...just not elite.

As for what his potential is and how we could be using him differently etc. I'll just wait and watch...and give credit where it is due if all that happens.

Congrats to us at 3-0! I think we are going to the Super Bowl this year.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 04:16 PM
I respect most of the guys on this board so if we happen to disagree and you want to have a respectful conversation, fine. Insults will not prove your point though.

OK. I wasn't going to ruin my game by spending the whole time focusing on Heath. Other than the 21 yard catch early (one of his 2 catches...the other for 4 yards), he was not memorable.

I decided to go back and watch the 10 minute version of the highlights (available through Comcast on Demand) and focus on Heath on every play.

-They did use him on blocking sometimes during the pass
-His run blocking was not overwhelmingly superior. He did get beat or knocked back or outspun at times. I was more impressed with his pass blocking. Usually his man did not get beyond him.
-he is really really lead footed slow.
-usually he had trouble getting open and it was just a single LB on him. They were never worried enough to use a safety or CB.

So I know some people are going to say, it is not only in stats that he may be missing but also in extended highlights. Where Heath is spectacular is in the non highlight plays. I know they would be just making that up just to talk.

He's OK....not spectacular. He could easily be replaced by any top 15 TE. He is clearly not the best TE in the league and might not even be the best TE named Miller (Zach might be better). If we lost him, where we might suffer is on plays where they want him to pass block. I think another TE can come in and do what he does on run blocking and definitely do much better getting open on passes (speed, separation, route running, boxing out, jump ball). Honestly, from what I saw, he looks like he would be a great RT(light I know). He keeps his man occupied and has quickness to cover edge rushers.

On the 21 yard play, he was able to find the hole in the zone. It would be nice if he could do that 4 times per game.

Let's see if he steps up with Baltimore. Batch should be good enough to get him the ball if he can get open.

steelerdave1969
09-27-2010, 05:04 PM
Heath Miller is pretty average in my opinion.

He is a good possession TE though personally, I think he is a rather piss-poor blocker. Not sure where you've seen or heard praise about his blocking, SK.

If there is something we can agree on, he is certainly NOT a Top 10 TE.

I promise you that if Heath Miller was in Dallas Clark's shoes in that offense in Indy he would be putting up just as good as stats as Clark is. The man catches pretty much everything that is catchable to him. He is Not Overrated in My Opinion thats for sure. The Steelers dont use him enough in the redzone thats for sure.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 05:36 PM
I promise you that if Heath Miller was in Dallas Clark's shoes in that offense in Indy he would be putting up just as good as stats as Clark is. The man catches pretty much everything that is catchable to him. He is Not Overrated in My Opinion thats for sure. The Steelers dont use him enough in the redzone thats for sure.

That's a huge promise. If you look over the past few pages, you will see we compared them.

Realistically, the main problem Heath would have backing you is he is too slow to fill Clark's shoes. The teams are just handling him with a single LB with no problem. They know he is no threat to go deep so it's not like he will outrun the LB...which is what other TEs might try to do.

Heath just doesn't get the separation.

He certainly has solid hands whenever he can get open. It's hard to tell if he is used the way he is used because of his skillset or not. That's all speculation. I'm pretty sure if he could get open more he would get the ball more.

theplatypus
09-27-2010, 05:40 PM
To be fair, it might have something to do with them using him on shorter routes but again, if he has the heart and passion and wants to do more, he can speak to the coaches. Being too quiet can be a problem.


That's just what we need, Heath "ochocinco" Miller saying coach change the offense I'm not getting enough balls thrown my way.:smash:

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 05:52 PM
That's just what we need, Heath "ochocinco" Miller saying coach change the offense I'm not getting enough balls thrown my way.:smash:

He doesn't have to be rude about it but if he is open and they are missing him or if he thinks he can beat his man if they send him deeper, he should say something. He needs to have the passion and WANT the ball. He is afterall a captain.

Hines wants the ball, Wallace wants the ball. Heath can want the ball too. There is nothing wrong with wanting to contribute more in the passing game.

sharkweek
09-27-2010, 07:40 PM
anyone who thinks he's not a top 10 tight end is a fool easily distracted by the sexier names like Gates / Gonzalez / Witten / Clark. Guess what, those guys earned their bread and butter in a pass first offense. While our offense might have recently shifted towards being a prolific pass attack, we're generally far more balanced if not biased towards the run to have a tight end rack up mind boggling stats.

Also, we've been lucky enough to have excellent WRs to where we haven't needed to rely on tight ends to be our #1 pass catcher like some other teams/QBs who borderline crutch on their TEs.

Heath Miller is one of the most well rounded TEs in the league, hands down.