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View Full Version : Hate to be Debbie Downer but...


zulater
09-26-2010, 07:26 PM
Hate to be Debbie Downer but, the real season starts Sunday against Baltimore. I know everyone think's we're playing with house money because we're 3-0.The popular myth being as long as when Ben took over the reins the team was no worse than 2-2 everything would be great.


Well I'm here to tell you that's not neccessarily true. While I'm delighted the Steelers are currently 3-0 if they lose against the Ravens they put everything in jeapordy. Let's look back at last season if you don't believe me. The reason the Steelers sat home for the playoffs is because they were awful against their division, 2-4 to be exact, including a lousy 1-2 at home. And imo the week 9 home loss to the bungles was the momentun killer that detroyed the season. Remember the Steelers were 6-2 just having destroyed the Broncos ( who at the time had the looks of a playoff team) in Denver going into the second Bengals game. Everthing looked to be in order for a repeat, and well you know the rest... :doh:

Anyway now we got the Raven coming in to Heinz, this is a must win! We can't lose our first divisional game at home, then go into a bye with a rusty and probably nervous Ben facing a Browns team with absolutely nothing to lose the following week.

Again sorry to be such a downer, but this next game is one we simply have to win!


And we will, then we can rejoice going into the bye:applaudit:, but not yet. :whistle:

Curtain_of_Steel
09-26-2010, 07:30 PM
Ben is not going to be nervous, his name is not dixon dixon. going on the road? 150 miles away? thats a home game. Steeler fans will dominate that toilet in week 6.

A win against the ratbords would be huge, I'm just saying its a huge releif to be sitting at 3-0 when it could've easily been 0-3 when this crap started 3 months ago.

Fire Arians
09-26-2010, 07:31 PM
well sure, any game vs a division opponent is a must-win imo. however, you can't say that the team hasn't been looking sharp, more impressive than the ravens or cincy at this point.

we played 3 tough teams in a row, 2 that were on the road, and won the last 2 in decisive fashion.

but yes i'm already fired up for next week, bring on the ravens.

mesaSteeler
09-26-2010, 07:49 PM
Completely disagree.

It's not a must win game this early in the season especially with our record of 3-0 going into the game. It would be wonderful if we do win but it's not like we MUST win. If we lose we would will still be tied for the division lead though the Ratbirds would own the tie breaker. But there would 3/4th of the season left and anything, such as the Ratbird losing three in row, could happen.

To say this is a must win game is nonsensical.

That being said I hope we beat the snot out the Ratbirds.

SH-Rock
09-26-2010, 07:51 PM
Have you seen the last 2/3 teams.

We stopped the best running back in league.

We stopped the best TE in the league.

It is true the Ravens are a huge team, but give the Steelers some credit they have done amazing with Big Ben

SteelCityMom
09-26-2010, 07:53 PM
It's not a must win in the sense that we won't make the playoffs (as of now) if they lose, BUT I understand your point. I'd rather be 4-0 and 1-0 in the division than letting the Rats go 3-1 and 2-1 in the division. We'd have a bigger hole to climb out of than they would division wise.

Plus it's always fun to watch the Rats fail.

Even if we lose though, it won't mean the end of the season...just wouldn't have as much wiggle room if we won.

Fire Arians
09-26-2010, 07:55 PM
i wanna see ryan clark knock douchemandzadeh's helmet off next sunday. can't stand that guy

cloppbeast
09-26-2010, 07:59 PM
They're 3-0. It's absolutely ridiculous to say this next game is a "must win".

I will say, being a division game, this is the most important thus far, but it's still a huge stretch to call it a must win.

zulater
09-26-2010, 08:02 PM
Completely disagree.

It's not a must win game this early in the season especially with our record of 3-0 going into the game. It would be wonderful if we do win but it's not like we MUST win. If we lose we would will still be tied for the division lead though the Ratbirds would own the tie breaker. But there would 3/4th of the season left and anything, such as the Ratbird losing three in row, could happen.

To say this is a must win game is nonsensical.

That being said I hope we beat the snot out the Ratbirds.

Put it this way, I'm hoping Tomlin is selling the team on this being close to a must win game. The margin of error becomes a lot greater if we can win this one first. I guess what it comes down to is I'm really hoping the team realizes that of the first four games, this one matters the most.

zulater
09-26-2010, 08:05 PM
They're 3-0. It's absolutely ridiculous to say this next game is a "must win".

I will say, being a division game, this is the most important thus far, but it's still a huge stretch to call it a must win.

Diviosional home games are as close to being must win games as you get during the regular season. I'm just saying you lose this one you undo a lot of the good you accomplished in the first 3 games.

MACH1
09-26-2010, 08:06 PM
Isn't every game a must win?

Ben shouldn't be to rusty, he'll have two weeks to practice and get back up to speed with the bye week and all.

zulater
09-26-2010, 08:11 PM
Isn't every game a must win?

Ben shouldn't be to rusty, he'll have two weeks to practice and get back up to speed with the bye week and all.

To an extent they are, but remember we lost out on a four way tie breaker to get a Wild Card berth last year largely because of our division and conference record were inferior.

So essentially divisional games are the most important, follwed by conference, and last and least are non conference games. Of our 3 games, two are non conference games. So as silly as it sounds, a 2-2 record going into the bye with both losses being the non conference varity would almost be superior to 3-1 with a divional home loss.

zulater
09-26-2010, 08:12 PM
Isn't every game a must win?

Ben shouldn't be to rusty, he'll have two weeks to practice and get back up to speed with the bye week and all.

To an extent they are, but remember we lost out on a four way tie breaker to get a Wild Card berth last year largely because our division and conference record were inferior.

So essentially divisional games are the most important, follwed by conference, and last and least are non conference games. Of our 3 games, two are non conference games. So as silly as it sounds, a 2-2 record going into the bye with both losses being the non conference varity would almost be superior to 3-1 with a divional home loss.

MasterOfPuppets
09-26-2010, 08:14 PM
awe c'mon zu...stop bein a buzz kill.....

http://www.nerdist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/01/happy-475x360.jpg

cloppbeast
09-26-2010, 08:15 PM
Diviosional home games are as close to being must win games as you get during the regular season. I'm just saying you lose this one you undo a lot of the good you accomplished in the first 3 games.

Yeah, it's important, but it's hardly a must win. If the Steelers happen to lose, at 3-1 with Big Ben coming back, they're still in a good position. They're season would be hardly over.

If they win, they'll be in a great position. If they lose, though, they're still in a good position. Let's not forget, the Ravens are a good football team. Losing to good football teams while you're down to your 4th string quarterback is not that big of a setback.

mesaSteeler
09-26-2010, 08:17 PM
Put it this way, I'm hoping Tomlin is selling the team on this being close to a must win game. The margin of error becomes a lot greater if we can win this one first. I guess what it comes down to is I'm really hoping the team realizes that of the first four games, this one matters the most.

I don't think Tomlin has to "sell" the team on anything. This is Ratbirds after all and they hate us as much as we hate them. If this team can't get up for the Ratbirds then we really are in trouble.

It's just one game. Did you really think we would go 16-0 in the regular season?

zulater
09-26-2010, 08:22 PM
Yeah, it's important, but it's hardly a must win. If the Steelers happen to lose, at 3-1 with Big Ben coming back, they're still in a great position. They're season would be hardly over.

If they win, they'll be in a great position. If they lose, though, they're still in a good position. Let's not forget, the Ravens are a good football team. Losing to good football teams while you're down to your 4th string quarterback is not that big of a setback.

After last year I want to be in great position going into the bye, not good position. And charlie Batch is a 4th string qb in name only. He's a capable and competent back-up who can do just what a back up is supposed to do, give his team a chance to win.

And don't anyone forget I'm not suggesting the Steelers can't or wont win, in fact I'm predicting just the opposite, that they will win. But until they do I'm guarding myself against becoming overly optimistic about the season as a whole.

zulater
09-26-2010, 08:25 PM
I don't think Tomlin has to "sell" the team on anything. This is Ratbirds after all and they hate us as much as we hate them. If this team can't get up for the Ratbirds then we really are in trouble.

It's just one game. Did you really think we would go 16-0 in the regular season?

No but do I want to go 6-0 in the division again, just like 2008. ( I'll settle for 4-2, just as long as we do no worse than split with either the Bungles or Rats. )

ETL
09-26-2010, 09:05 PM
What's the definition of a "must win"?

Does that mean that if the Steelers lose to the Raven's next week, there is no chance to make it to the playoffs or win the SB?

Will our psyche be so damaged that we might as well mail it in from now on?

Are we finished for the rest of the year if we lose the Ravens at home?

Should I cancel my Directv NFL package and stop watching Steeler football for the the rest of the year?

Z, every game is important but if we lose next week with our 4th string QB - I think I will still hold hope for the rest of the year - ESPECIALLY since our record will still be 3-1. Plus, we will win next week - just for you - we will win.

zulater
09-26-2010, 09:18 PM
What's the definition of a "must win"?

Does that mean that if the Steelers lose to the Raven's next week, there is no chance to make it to the playoffs or win the SB?

Will our psyche be so damaged that we might as well mail it in from now on?

Are we finished for the rest of the year if we lose the Ravens at home?

Should I cancel my Directv NFL package and stop watching Steeler football for the the rest of the year?

Z, every game is important but if we lose next week with our 4th string QB - I think I will still hold hope for the rest of the year - ESPECIALLY since our record will still be 3-1. Plus, we will win next week - just for you - we will win.

It's a must win game because if they lose the bye week is really gonna suck for me living in the heart of Raven country. :thud:


:wink02:[

sharkweek
09-26-2010, 09:28 PM
We started losing last season because we didn't have the depth on defense to overcome injury.

I won't start worrying over one loss to the Ravens early in the season.

You said your self. We went 6-2 last season before a decline. However there are two very important things to take away here.

First, our current 3-0 start has been far more impressive and indicative of things to come, particularly when we get one of our best players on offense back. Our defense has proven it can carry the team for a full 4+ quarters, even when the offense can't pull its own weight, and it looks like the offense is showing signs of life BEFORE we get Ben back.

Second, I'd rather lose games early than late, and ever since 1972, losses are inevitable. Better to start with some hiccups and finish strong, our two most recent Superbowls are perfect examples, particularly XL where we had to finish 8-0 to win the Superbowl and go through the 3 best teams in the AFC on the road.

Shea
09-26-2010, 09:28 PM
We're 3-0 without Ben. I think we should all be happy and not worry about the Ravens game.

We'll get them again even if we lose and we'll have Ben back by then.

Besides divisional games won't matter if we keep putting up more W's then the rest of them.

Steelerfreak58
09-26-2010, 09:33 PM
Ravens have been struggling offensively. If Batch can play another solid game for us minus the INT the Defense should keep it close. Hell they let the Clowns almost beat them today.

Its the Ravens and they always play us tough but its at home and Flacco seems to be struggling of late our D is going to make him squirm.

ETL
09-26-2010, 10:07 PM
It's a must win game because if they lose the bye week is really gonna suck for me living in the heart of Raven country. :thud:


:wink02:[

I stand corrected. You are right. For you - its a must win! My sincere apologies.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 12:35 AM
It's definitely not a must win though I will agree it is important not to get swept by either Baltimore or Cincy.

If we lose, the second game will be a likely must win.

We'd rather have the division record or conference record be the tie breaker to give us the best fighting chance to win the division so we just can't afford to be swept by either of those 2 teams.

Giving Baltimore their second division loss would be great. They don't play Cincy again until the last game of the season and we know we can't count on the Browns to beat them in that second game (already lost today). It's basically up to us to put dings in their record.

rbryan
09-27-2010, 12:47 AM
I understand tempering the euphoric optimism, but next week certainly isn't a make or break moment.

Although starting 3-0 only ensures we can do no worse than 3-13, I'm thinking 13-3 is much more realistic ....regardless of the outcome next week.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 12:49 AM
Next week is not a MUST win. But it will set a tone between the two teams. In fact I think it is more of a must win for Baltimore. But considering the Ravens only scored 24 at home against a weak Browns team, especially on defense,. Does anyone really feel that the Ravens will score more than say 13 at our crib, against our defense ? I mean not unless our offense just gives away the ball several times. But if we play it smart, keep Baltimore on a long field, and get Batch at Mid-field to toss the long ball then we will be okay.

Also, when a RB like Peyton Hills, who is really a nobody can run over the Ravens like he did. I can Imagine a really pumped-up Mendenhall will do against them. To be honest, I am more worried about the 5th game against Cleveland when Ben returns. Nen will be rusty for sure. And he might try to do too much. Baltimore is always tough. But I Imagibe the Home crowd next Sunday is going to make Flacco very very nervous!



4-0 BABY!!

Steel_Bus_24
09-27-2010, 01:10 AM
Next week is not a MUST win. But it will set a tone between the two teams. In fact I think it is more of a must win for Baltimore. But considering the Ravens only scored 24 at home against a weak Browns team, especially on defense,. Does anyone really feel that the Ravens will score more than say 13 at our crib, against our defense ? I mean not unless our offense just gives away the ball several times. But if we play it smart, keep Baltimore on a long field, and get Batch at Mid-field to toss the long ball then we will be okay.

Also, when a RB like Peyton Hills, who is really a nobody can run over the Ravens like he did. I can Imagine a really pumped-up Mendenhall will do against them. To be honest, I am more worried about the 5th game against Cleveland when Ben returns. Nen will be rusty for sure. And he might try to do too much. Baltimore is always tough. But I Imagibe the Home crowd next Sunday is going to make Flacco very very nervous!


4-0 BABY!!

Peyton Hillis isn't a nobody...a very underrated back who has been plagued with injuries......

you can throw out the records in this one.....I expect a very close game

Is it a must win??? Maybe, but its really early in the season still

Historically though...if we want a chance to beat Balt, we have to do it at home

I will say if we lose this game, then we'll have to sweep both the Bengals and Browns to win the AFCN

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 02:03 AM
But considering the Ravens only scored 24 at home against a weak Browns team, especially on defense,. Does anyone really feel that the Ravens will score more than say 13 at our crib, against our defense ?

Yes. I think they'll score 20. Hopefully our offense can score 21. we have been using a bend but don't break with the passing D that will slip one day and a team will put up some points.

Right now teams complete about 2/3rds of the passes against us (8th easiest), have 35 passing first downs against us (9th worst), allowing 219 y/g (17th best). With allowing points we are number 1...but one of these days a missed tackle will occur and some points will be put up. Some of these stats are affected by that prevent D they played at the end of the Tenn game and the back ups they put in in the Tampa game but there have been times when our pass D could be better.

Our D will show up. If our O shows up, we win.

ricardisimo
09-27-2010, 02:06 AM
I don't know what to tell you... Our season started on Day One. We've played three (very?) good teams and made all three look mediocre to bad. If you look at Atlanta these past two games, they are clearly an elite NFC team. Tennessee completely dominated its other two opponents. And we'll have a better gauge of Tampa Bay in two weeks, after they've played the Bungholes and Saints.

We are 3-0, and a dominant 3-0. I'm liking our chances against anyone right now. The key now is staying healthy. I can't tell you how much I liked seeing Worilds, Fox, Mundy and the like in there late, getting reps and experience with Troy and Co. on the sideline getting some rest.

VegasStlrFan
09-27-2010, 03:06 AM
Every divisional game at home is a must win, you gotta get the W in your house. This is especially true of a team that will be in the hunt come December.

SacknificentStew56
09-27-2010, 03:54 AM
3-0 > 0-3!! It's an important game but not a must win for us. We will shut down Flacco and the Ratbirds offense. Their FG kicker will definitely earn his check next week.

kirklandrules
09-27-2010, 06:12 AM
The Ratbirds haven't looked good since that Jets win. They looked awful in their loss to Cincy and were lucky to win, at home, against the Browns ... I almost said a really bad Browns team, but that would have been redundant.

Yes, these games are always tough and I'd love to see us win. However, as I stated about this past Bucs game, I'm really not worried. The Steelers have looked so good on defense that they should have a good chance to win by the end of the game.

jjpro11
09-27-2010, 06:47 AM
we beat three 2-1 teams.. one of which beat the defending SB champs in their house. very impressive. we should have beaten the Rats in their house last year with Dixon starting and no Polamalu or Smith. i hope we pound the shit out of them Sunday. pressure Flacco and he folds.

LVSteelersfan
09-27-2010, 10:02 AM
Speaking of Polomolu on the sidelines, how about that INT he made on the sidelines? He just can't seem to help himself. That was a heck of a catch. ; )

plenewken
09-27-2010, 10:33 AM
Not a must win but without a doubt, next Sunday will be a much more important game than any of the 3 we've played so far. I'd rather be 3-1 after beating the Ratbirds than 3-1 after losing to them.
This being said, 4-0 would be much better and it's very doable.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 10:39 AM
we beat three 2-1 teams.. one of which beat the defending SB champs in their house. very impressive. we should have beaten the Rats in their house last year with Dixon starting and no Polamalu or Smith. i hope we pound the shit out of them Sunday. pressure Flacco and he folds.



I don't know if you can say Atlanta BEAT the Saints in their stadium. I mean when your offense sets up your Kicker in OT with a 28 yarder, and he SHANKS it to the right ? Well that Isn't exactly beating anyone. But they did get the win :noidea:

jjpro11
09-27-2010, 10:55 AM
I don't know if you can say Atlanta BEAT the Saints in their stadium. I mean when your offense sets up your Kicker in OT with a 28 yarder, and he SHANKS it to the right ? Well that Isn't exactly beating anyone. But they did get the win :noidea:

a win is a win.. if you're facing a team as good as the Saints, you'll take it any way you can. they put together, i think it was a, 12 play drive right after that to win.

Atlanta Dan
09-27-2010, 11:32 AM
Every divisional game at home is a must win, you gotta get the W in your house. This is especially true of a team that will be in the hunt come December.

Agreed - Steelers need to hold serve at home and at a minimum beat the Browns twice - hard to see a division win with less than 4-2 within the division

But if anyone had been offered on Labor Day a 3-1 record to start the season with the one loss being to the Ravens my bet is anyone would have galdly taken that offer with all of the QB issues

Tone's Toes
09-27-2010, 12:22 PM
You can't disregard the first 3 games and say the real season starts Sunday. If we lost the first 3 games our season may have been over.

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 12:34 PM
I say this game is important because if the Steelers can go 4-0 without Ben, they can go 16-0

zulater
09-27-2010, 12:44 PM
You can't disregard the first 3 games and say the real season starts Sunday. If we lost the first 3 games our season may have been over.

True, but if we go 2-4 in division again what's are chances of being anything better than the 2nd wildcard? The AFC North is loaded, the Ravens haven't looked great yet, but they aren't going anywhere. They'll win 10-12 games easy. The Bengals have a good defesne, and if the offense eventually shows up they too can pose a problem.

I'm just saying I don't want to get behind the 8-ball by putting the Ravens in a position to sweep us if they hold home service later in the season. This would be a great win to take into the bye.

stb_steeler
09-27-2010, 01:28 PM
I know we always have a tough time with the Ravens, but they didnt exactly play that great Sunday. I hope they do play us like they did against the Browns....We're playing in great form right now and we hope it continues! :tt02:

rbryan
09-28-2010, 12:27 AM
we beat three 2-1 teams.. one of which beat the defending SB champs in their house. very impressive. we should have beaten the Rats in their house last year with Dixon starting and no Polamalu or Smith. i hope we pound the shit out of them Sunday. pressure Flacco and he folds.


I like the way you think. I got a feeling........

Stillers 31 Ratbirds 6

steve314
09-29-2010, 09:51 PM
Isn't every game a must win?


Not really. The road games vs NFC teams, especially good teams (Saints) are not really must-wins. I'll be happy if they win all the rest and lose to the Saints. In fact they could've lost to the Bucs and go on to lose to the Saints and still clinch the division by winning the rest.

StainlessStill
09-29-2010, 10:07 PM
[/COLOR]


I like the way you think. I got a feeling........

Stillers 31 Ratbirds 6

As awesome as this sounds, I really believe this is a fantasy score at this point. Everyone knows by now that no matter how bad/good either team could really be, Ravens/Steelers throw everything out the window when they face off.

This should be another defensive struggle and I can see either team taking advantage of the others tendencies when it comes to defense vs offense. Baltimore has struggled in Pittsburgh lately, esp Joe Flacco, who still has room to grow and struggles with the kind of defense the Steelers scheme up.

Charlie will be Charlie, but don't think for a second the Ravens defense can exploit some things about Charlies game that a young Tampa team could not do. I expect this to be a very well managed game and whoever plays field position the best and plays smarter defense takes the cake in a low scorer.

I like us by 10 since we can take advantage of their defensive holes that are certainly there versus our itty bitty ones, if any from our defense.

PhantomJB93
09-29-2010, 10:13 PM
Actually, we were 2-1 at home in the division, we only lost to Cincy at home...we still beat Baltimore and Cleveland...we just had the lousy 0-3 road record

smokeykurt
09-30-2010, 02:01 AM
Debbie Downer...

Negative Nancy,

Sulking Sarah,

Pessimistic Patty,

Betty Bummer,




there's alot of things you could call yourself..but if you think this next game is a need to win...your also a Debbie Dummy too.....

lol

SH-Rock
09-30-2010, 05:59 AM
If the Steelers win this one, they'll on top of AFC North by at least 1 game

SteelersNation
09-30-2010, 11:42 AM
I hope the Steelers kick the tar outta the Ravens.

That being said I gotta admit. I'm feeling a bit pessistic about this game.
The Ravens look like they are getting there stuff together and will be hard to beat this week.
I really think we are going to lose this one, but it won't be the end of the world.

kiuaswarrior
09-30-2010, 12:56 PM
Regardless of what we think, I'm sure the Steelers will be playing like it's a must win.

StainlessStill
09-30-2010, 01:05 PM
Regardless of what we think, I'm sure the Steelers will be playing like it's a must win.

This game could be bigger than some might think. Obviously it's against the Ravens and a divisional rival matchup, but it's also against the Conference as well. We already beat 2 NFC teams and only 1 AFC team in Tenn and no divisional matchups yet so this is big to our overall standings as a Conference. You look at last year, the one thing that kept us out of the playoffs was our Conference record so out of the 4 games so far, this is our first against the division and only 2nd in the Conference so it's pretty damn big which equals: PLAYOFF ATMOSPHERE!

DoubleYoi
09-30-2010, 01:25 PM
An undefeated team doesn't see a "must win" until the playoffs start. And as happy as I am that we're 3-0, don't put too much stock in the record so far. Not doubting the Steelers as a legitimate contender but the Bucs are a 3-13 team who beat two pretty bad teams to start the road. Yeah, we dismantled them at home but it's not like we beat three world-beaters.

I predicted a 3-1 start without Ben...the one loss being the Baltimore game. However, I do think we win this Sunday but in no way is it a must win. It'd really help our cause but a must win when you're 3-0 is a bit of a stretch.

StainlessStill
09-30-2010, 01:31 PM
An undefeated team doesn't see a "must win" until the playoffs start. And as happy as I am that we're 3-0, don't put too much stock in the record so far. Not doubting the Steelers as a legitimate contender but the Bucs are a 3-13 team who beat two pretty bad teams to start the road. Yeah, we dismantled them at home but it's not like we beat three world-beaters.

I predicted a 3-1 start without Ben...the one loss being the Baltimore game. However, I do think we win this Sunday but in no way is it a must win. It'd really help our cause but a must win when you're 3-0 is a bit of a stretch.

Every divisional game is a must win. This league is set up to win your division first and foremost and the Ravens are the team that everybody is predicting to take the North. If we lose, that will pit the Ravens at 3-1 along with us with a head to head advantage so I won't call it must win but it certainly is a big game EARLY, if not a must win considering our opponent. If we win Sunday not only will we be an outstanding 4-0, but we will be 2-0 in the Conference, and 1-0 up in the division and Baltimore would be 0-2 in the division considering Cincy already beat them and Cincy is nowhere near threatening as Balty so, this is huge.

zulater
10-04-2010, 05:10 AM
For the fourth time in these six most recent ultra-violent collisions, the Steelers and Baltimore Ravens delivered another tight-as-the-wallpaper three-point game Sunday, this one falling to the purple and black, the primary colors of a deep bruise.

That's precisely what it felt like in the Steelers' locker room, too. More important, as deep bruises go, this one's going to be there for a while, at least until everyone in the AFC North proves they can beat somebody else in the AFC North.

A quarter of the way through this NFL season, we know the Browns can beat the Bengals (really?), the Bengals can beat the Ravens, the Ravens can beat the Steelers, and the Steelers can beat ...

Yeah, see that's a problem.

Is it worth pointing out at this juncture that Mike Tomlin's team has lost five of its past seven games within the division?
Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/10277/1092511-150.stm#ixzz11NpkCHEK