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View Full Version : Who would you lose for 2010 season?


SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 08:53 PM
If you had to lose one guy for the 2010 season, who would you choose from the list?

Feel free to explain.

Thanks

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 08:53 PM
Arians

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 08:57 PM
Arians

Did you like his playcalling last game?

Really. I think he will be better now that he has an O-line and a running back who can run short yardage if he chooses to do so.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 08:58 PM
Easy

1) Starks first, cause he is average at best and way overpaid.
2) Harrison. Sucks but given his age and since we have depth, he is second.
3) Tie..Ward/Heath. Ward is a great face to our team. But he is 34, and is winding down. Heath does not have the Hall of fame pedigree that Ward does. But at this time he is definitely more valuable.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:01 PM
Easy

1) Starks first, cause he is average at best and way overpaid.
2) Harrison. Sucks but given his age and since we have depth, he is second.
3) Tie..Ward/Heath. Ward is a great face to our team. But he is 34, and is winding down. Heath does not have the Hall of fame pedigree that Ward does. But at this time he is definitely more valuable.

Darn. I meant it to be for the 2010 season. I hope some will read the first post of the thread. I was trying not to be too wordy with the poll.

I think losing Starks would be a big blow to our season.

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 09:07 PM
Did you like his playcalling last game?

Really. I think he will be better now that he has an O-line and a running back who can run short yardage if he chooses to do so.

I was just being a smart-ass to see if you would let me say any coaches lol
I thought Arians has called the games pretty well and conservatively.

steeltheone
09-27-2010, 09:09 PM
For the 2010 season Harrison would be missed more than Woodley.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:10 PM
I was just being a smart-ass to see if you would let me say any coaches lol
I thought Arians has called the games pretty well and conservatively.

It upsets me that the poll is going to be ruined because people won't read the first post of the thread.

zulater
09-27-2010, 09:11 PM
Geez, somehow i get the feeling that this is a set up for us to pick Heath Miller.:coffee:

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:13 PM
Geez, somehow i get the feeling that this is a set up for us to pick Heath Miller.:coffee:

It's set up to see where people place the value of the players on the team this season.

Excuse me. I gotta head back to my time machine.:sofunny:

mesaSteeler
09-27-2010, 09:14 PM
Arians
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit::applaudit:

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:16 PM
:applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::applaudit::appla udit::applaudit:

Who did you vote for?

zulater
09-27-2010, 09:18 PM
It's set up to see where people place the value of the players on the team this season.

Excuse me. I gotta head back to my time machine.:sofunny:

Where's Maurice Pouncey, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Lawrence Timmons? It's an incomplete list, but regardless they're all important, but we can get by for a while with any of them gone.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 09:22 PM
Only a true Idiot at THIS time say Ward is more valuable than Heath Miller. Who is an " Elite " TE in the game. Yes Hines is a Legend here. But he also is 34, and winding down.

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 09:25 PM
Only a true Idiot at THIS time say Ward is more valuable than Heath Miller. Who is an " Elite " TE in the game. Yes Hines is a Legend here. But he also is 34, and winding down.

Defenses put their best cornerback on Ward, so that leaves Wallace, who is younger and faster on a 2nd and 3rd cornerback if Randle El is out there. If Ward was gone, Wallace and Randle El would be forced to go up against number 1 cornerbacks, and they wouldn't do too well, the passing game would suffer.

zulater
09-27-2010, 09:26 PM
I'm still looking for the none of the above option.:nerd:

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:27 PM
Where's Maurice Pouncey, Aaron Smith, Casey Hampton, Lawrence Timmons? It's an incomplete list, but regardless they're all important, but we can get by for a while with any of them gone.

I initially meant to include Pouncey on the list but when it came to making it, I forgot. You can only include 10 for the poll anyway and 9 are there. That should be enough to choose from. I think it is a fair poll. Pouncey would have been a nice option to give people.

As far as why I didn't choose Timmons, Smith and Hampton over the options I selected is because I did not want to make it an easy poll with Foote, Hood and Hoke hanging around. I agree while losing each for the season will hurt, we could get by short term with those replacements.

Anyway, 9 is enough to choose from.

MasterOfPuppets
09-27-2010, 09:29 PM
at this point, i'd say ward. not that ward is any less valuable, but i like the depth at wr more than the other area's... otherwise i'd say starks.

mesaSteeler
09-27-2010, 09:29 PM
Are you trying to jinx us by asking this?

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 09:30 PM
Defenses put their best cornerback on Ward, so that leaves Wallace, who is younger and faster on a 2nd and 3rd cornerback if Randle El is out there. If Ward was gone, Wallace and Randle El would be forced to go up against number 1 cornerbacks, and they wouldn't do too well, the passing game would suffer.



Not all teams put their # 1 DB on Ward. Please get seious. In fact, if you ask ANY of the Steeler fans who were complete " Homers " for the likes of Plex and Santonio, they will all tell you that the ONLY reason Ward ever had the seasons that he had was because the opposing teams were doubling, and triple-teaming those guys
while Ward got single coverage from a 4th string Safety :rofl:


Yeah I think it's ridiculous to, I'm just sayin.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:31 PM
Only a true Idiot at THIS time say Ward is more valuable than Heath Miller. Who is an " Elite " TE in the game. Yes Hines is a Legend here. But he also is 34, and winding down.

Why do we have to use this type of technique to argue? It is not more convincing to say anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.

I think Ward offers us more this season than Miller. I'd rather have Ward this season.
Ward is an excellent blocker and I think he'll come through with more big catches.

zulater
09-27-2010, 09:33 PM
I initially meant to include Pouncey on the list but when it came to making it, I forgot. You can only include 10 for the poll anyway and 9 are there. That should be enough to choose from. I think it is a fair poll. Pouncey would have been a nice option to give people.

As far as why I didn't choose Timmons, Smith and Hampton over the options I selected is because I did not want to make it an easy poll with Foote, Hood and Hoke hanging around. I agree while losing each for the season will hurt, we could get by short term with those replacements.

Anyway, 9 is enough to choose from.

Let me put it this way, yesterday withstanding ben is the second hardest player on this team to replace because of the drop off behind him at the position. Troy is the hardest to replace, because he's unique, there's not another player in the league like him. Of the players on your list, Heath would be the one we could most afford to lose because Spaeth is a decent pass catching tight end and Johnson is a good blocker.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 09:36 PM
Why do we have to use this type of technique to argue? It is not more convincing to say anyone who disagrees with you is an idiot.

I think Ward offers us more this season than Miller. I'd rather have Ward this season.
Ward is an excellent blocker and I think he'll come through with more big catches.




Sorry but you can think Ward is more valuable then Miller. And I LOVE Hines as well. But it is clear Miller is Ben's favorite target. And he is our safety valve player who has come up with more huge 3rd down plays to keep drives alive the past 2 years. Ben and Miller just have this thing going on where they know where each other will be.
But the BOTTOM line is this thread is pointless, and that we don't have to give up either one of them :tt03:

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 09:36 PM
Not all teams put their # 1 DB on Ward. Please get seious. In fact, if you ask ANY of the Steeler fans who were complete " Homers " for the likes of Plex and Santonio, they will all tell you that the ONLY reason Ward ever had the seasons that he had was because the opposing teams were doubling, and triple-teaming those guys
while Ward got single coverage from a 4th string Safety :rofl:


Yeah I think it's ridiculous to, I'm just sayin.

Ward is in motion a lot, he'll get a miss match in zone coverages and certain other coverages.
Look at the Bucs game, Wallace had a rookie and a 2nd year cornerback on him while Ward had future hall of famer shut down corner Ronde Barber on him all game. You're right, when Holmes and Plex where here, they got the bigger badder corners, but because Ward is the best reciever on the roster right now, he gets the number 1 corner backs. If a team puts a number 1 cornerback on Wallace, who will just get the deep routes, they know Ward will chew them up on short routes, which he's done when Plex and Holmes were covered by number 1 cornerbacks.
A reciever who only runs deep routes can be covered reletively easily by a good corner, even by a medicore corner, it just depends if they aren't stupid like the Bucs corner who was right next to Wallace but couldn't find the ball :doh:
You get a big physical corner on Wallace, he'll never make it off the line.

Fire Arians
09-27-2010, 09:44 PM
woodley. at this point in their careers harrison is still our #1 OLB. with woodley gone, they might move timmons outside and put foote back in his old position or keyaron fox. defense will still be lethal

of course, i don't like the idea of losing anyone on that list, but i think out of that big list, woodley might be the most expendable. not for the long term of course but we're talking just 2010 right?

the players we can least afford to lose of course is troy, ben, and mendenhall, as there's no backups we have that can come close to doing the job they do. sure batch can have a few good games, but it's only a matter of time before he'll get injured if he has to play the stretch of an entire season. redman is a good backup to mendy but lacks the gamebreaking ability, dwyer isn't ready for primetime yet. and troy? look at last year, nuff said.

StainlessStill
09-27-2010, 09:46 PM
Wow, what a list to choose from. All marquee players who fit in the big picture.

At this very moment, I'm going to have to say Wallace. He does give us the deep threat and stretch the field, but other than that, he's still young and hasn't really showed too much in becoming a complete player. Tough choice, but at the moment, I'd say Wallace even though he's been tearin it up deep.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:53 PM
at this point, i'd say ward. not that ward is any less valuable, but i like the depth at wr more than the other area's... otherwise i'd say starks.

I didn't like the way Scott covered for Starks. I noticed he was severely missed. They even lined up TEs on that side occasionally to help Scott. I think losing Starks would be a big blow to the season.


Are you trying to jinx us by asking this?

Nah...no jinx. lol I wanted to see where people's heads were at. It's helpful to understand the fans.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 09:58 PM
Let me put it this way, yesterday withstanding ben is the second hardest player on this team to replace because of the drop off behind him at the position. Troy is the hardest to replace, because he's unique, there's not another player in the league like him. Of the players on your list, Heath would be the one we could most afford to lose because Spaeth is a decent pass catching tight end and Johnson is a good blocker.

I agree with you. I might put Ben first and Troy second because I always value the QB first.

Somebody got rid of Wallace for the season. Yikes!

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:04 PM
Sorry but you can think Ward is more valuable then Miller. And I LOVE Hines as well. But it is clear Miller is Ben's favorite target. And he is our safety valve player who has come up with more huge 3rd down plays to keep drives alive the past 2 years. Ben and Miller just have this thing going on where they know where each other will be.
But the BOTTOM line is this thread is pointless, and that we don't have to give up either one of them :tt03:

You are free to like who you want but when you make statements like this, we have to go to the stats.

Past 2 years:
First downs on 3rd down
Miller: 15
Ward 34
So there goes your Ben's favorite target on 3rd down comment.

In fact, skipping Heath's rookie season (to be fair), in the last 4 seasons the number of first downs on 3rd down are:
Ward 76
Miller 34

(including all of Heaths seasons would make it 93-35 in favor of Ward). I thik Ward might be one of Ben's favorite 3rd down targets.

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 10:06 PM
You are free to like who you want but when you make statements like this, we have to go to the stats.

Past 2 years:
First downs on 3rd down
Miller: 15
Ward 34
So there goes your Ben's favorite target on 3rd down comment.

lol
But who does Ben throw to the most on 3rd down? Miller might have more catches on 3rd down but they were short.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:08 PM
Ward is in motion a lot, he'll get a miss match in zone coverages and certain other coverages.
Look at the Bucs game, Wallace had a rookie and a 2nd year cornerback on him while Ward had future hall of famer shut down corner Ronde Barber on him all game. You're right, when Holmes and Plex where here, they got the bigger badder corners, but because Ward is the best reciever on the roster right now, he gets the number 1 corner backs. If a team puts a number 1 cornerback on Wallace, who will just get the deep routes, they know Ward will chew them up on short routes, which he's done when Plex and Holmes were covered by number 1 cornerbacks.
A reciever who only runs deep routes can be covered reletively easily by a good corner, even by a medicore corner, it just depends if they aren't stupid like the Bucs corner who was right next to Wallace but couldn't find the ball :doh:
You get a big physical corner on Wallace, he'll never make it off the line.

To be honest. I think more and more Wallace will be covered by the #1 CB. Talib is the quicker of the CB so they assign him to cover the number 1 WR. Barber has speed issues (with his age). There was an article on this before the game.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:10 PM
Wow, what a list to choose from. All marquee players who fit in the big picture.

At this very moment, I'm going to have to say Wallace. He does give us the deep threat and stretch the field, but other than that, he's still young and hasn't really showed too much in becoming a complete player. Tough choice, but at the moment, I'd say Wallace even though he's been tearin it up deep.

I think he is complete. The only thing limiting Wallace is "No Ben". Watch him still make the Probowl.

StainlessStill
09-27-2010, 10:15 PM
I think he is complete. The only thing limiting Wallace is "No Ben". Watch him still make the Probowl.

I hope so, and I agree that he COULD be complete very, very soon but I don't think he's complete yet. He hasn't had the chance. You rarely see him posses the chains or really catch a ball and gain Y.A.C. His stats are usually something like "3 catches, 98 yards, 2 touchdowns" or " 2 catches, 102 yards, 1 touchdown." He's a burner. I'd like for him to start moving around and get open in zone and offer some threats in possession and intermediate. He will, but right now we are only asking him to go deep and split coverage.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:15 PM
woodley. at this point in their careers harrison is still our #1 OLB. with woodley gone, they might move timmons outside and put foote back in his old position or keyaron fox. defense will still be lethal

of course, i don't like the idea of losing anyone on that list, but i think out of that big list, woodley might be the most expendable. not for the long term of course but we're talking just 2010 right?

the players we can least afford to lose of course is troy, ben, and mendenhall, as there's no backups we have that can come close to doing the job they do. sure batch can have a few good games, but it's only a matter of time before he'll get injured if he has to play the stretch of an entire season. redman is a good backup to mendy but lacks the gamebreaking ability, dwyer isn't ready for primetime yet. and troy? look at last year, nuff said.

While it is not the choice I would choose, I understand it. I would rather have that happen than lose Starks or Wallace like some have voted for.

I think people are voting with emotion on who they like. Did people not see Scott and Hills struggle at LT against Tenn? Starks doesn't get his credit. At least now with the interior solid, he can use the phonebooth and push defenders around the pocket.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:17 PM
I hope so, and I agree that he COULD be complete very, very soon but I don't think he's complete yet. He hasn't had the chance. You rarely see him posses the chains or really catch a ball and gain Y.A.C. His stats are usually something like "3 catches, 98 yards, 2 touchdowns" or " 2 catches, 102 yards, 1 touchdown." He's a burner. I'd like for him to start moving around and get open in zone and offer some threats in possession and intermediate. He will, but right now we are only asking him to go deep and split coverage.

He's been running all types of routes. He does not just go deep on every play. He's been open sometimes too. The problem right now has been at QB...especially with Dixon. When Ben comes back, he is going to BLOW UP.

StainlessStill
09-27-2010, 10:19 PM
He's been running all types of routes. He does not just go deep on every play. He's been open sometimes too. The problem right now has been at QB...especially with Dixon. When Ben comes back, he is going to BLOW UP.

Exactly my point. He's only connecting on deep balls. I agree that with Ben back, he will offer more in the passing game. He's our number 2, he will be asked to do more eventually.

lionslicer
09-27-2010, 10:28 PM
To be honest. I think more and more Wallace will be covered by the #1 CB. Talib is the quicker of the CB so they assign him to cover the number 1 WR. Barber has speed issues (with his age). There was an article on this before the game.

Barber ran a 4.55 when he was a rookie, speed has always been an issue, but that never stopped him from being a shut down corner.
I could write forever about how different corners and defenses and who would cover who in what defense and why and such, but I'm not. Just know if Ward was gone, there would be a series of events that would lead to Wallace having a way less effect than he has now.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:28 PM
Exactly my point. He's only connecting on deep balls. I agree that with Ben back, he will offer more in the passing game. He's our number 2, he will be asked to do more eventually.

He is going to be thought of as our top while ward will be a great posession receiver. He's legit. It's the QB that is only connecting on the deep routes. They will give Ward the title of #1 out of respect and experience.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 10:31 PM
Ben is a LOCK for the Hall of fame before he was 27 years old. How does a HOF QB hinder anyone ? And please don't say Ben is not a good deep pass QB. He probably one of the leagues best at it.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:32 PM
Barber ran a 4.55 when he was a rookie, speed has always been an issue, but that never stopped him from being a shut down corner.
I could write forever about how different corners and defenses and who would cover who in what defense and why and such, but I'm not. Just know if Ward was gone, there would be a series of events that would lead to Wallace having a way less effect than he has now.

I agree with Wallace being less effective with Ward gone. I was just expressing my opinion on who I think the #1 CBs will be covering. We have all season to oberve.

There is an article on Talib and Barber though if you care to look. I don't. Talib was suspended for the first game.

SteelKnight
09-27-2010, 10:35 PM
Ben is a LOCK for the Hall of fame before he was 27 years old. How does a HOF QB hinder anyone ? And please don't say Ben is not a good deep pass QB. He probably one of the leagues best at it.

Who are you talking to? If you are jumping int the conversation that Still and I were having, it is obvious we were talking about the current non-Ben QBs thus far this season.

whatdoiknow
09-27-2010, 10:49 PM
Who are you talking to? If you are jumping int the conversation that Still and I were having, it is obvious we were talking about the current non-Ben QBs thus far this season.



Oh okay. Sorry. I thought someone was saying he would get rid of Wallace cause all he can do is run deep, which by the way is totally untrue. Wallace is a very good route runner when called upon to do. And that we had no QB's who can throw the deep ball. Which is of course ridiculous.

MACH1
09-27-2010, 11:27 PM
Dixon

ricardisimo
09-28-2010, 12:09 AM
I'm still looking for the none of the above option.:nerd:
And I'm still looking for the "Patriots suck and Tom Brady is Biebersexual" option.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 12:11 AM
Dixon

A lot of people are not voting because it is tough but those who are are voting emotionally in my opinion.

I don't know how they think we could afford to lose Starks this season.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 04:05 PM
lol
But who does Ben throw to the most on 3rd down? Miller might have more catches on 3rd down but they were short.

Nope
Ward 36
Miller 23

Plus...this just highlights another Ward strength over Miller. On his 3rd down catches in the past 2 years, Ward had 34 of 36 go for a first down (short on just 2) where Miller had 15 of 23 (short on 8...so basically short on 1/3 of his 3rd down catches over that time).

Myth abolished. The only last avenue (of grasping at straws) one could attempt is asking whether maybe Ben throws to him more but he doesn't catch it. First, that would not make him look better. Secondly, we know Miller has a good catch percentage (when he can get open).

MasterOfPuppets
09-28-2010, 06:19 PM
Dixon
http://www.smileys4msn.com/displaysmiley.php?show=4492

SteelCityMom
09-28-2010, 06:46 PM
http://www.smileys4msn.com/displaysmiley.php?show=4492

:banned:

:chuckle:

MasterOfPuppets
09-28-2010, 07:00 PM
Nope
Ward 36
Miller 23

Plus...this just highlights another Ward strength over Miller. On his 3rd down catches in the past 2 years, Ward had 34 of 36 go for a first down (short on just 2) where Miller had 15 of 23 (short on 8...so basically short on 1/3 of his 3rd down catches over that time).

Myth abolished. The only last avenue (of grasping at straws) one could attempt is asking whether maybe Ben throws to him more but he doesn't catch it. First, that would not make him look better. Secondly, we know Miller has a good catch percentage (when he can get open).
did it ever occur to you that maybe , just maybe, ward is running deeper DESIGNED routes than miller is ?
you also gotta ask the question , how often is miller the primary receiver in arians scheme ? i'm guessing not very often.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 07:02 PM
:banned:

:chuckle:

Well look at the poll. The majority would be most willing to lose our starting blindside protecting LT (even though Scott and Hills struggled when Starks was out) than give up a player they like (example Miller) who they feel could be more productive in a different scheme. I can't follow the logic but those who picked Starks have not offered reasoning.

It just shows you that other polls should be taken with a grain of salt. Starting LT?

I really hope Heath steps it up this year and can outmatch LBs covering him 1 v 1.

SteelersinCA
09-28-2010, 07:05 PM
Mach1

StainlessStill
09-28-2010, 07:12 PM
Oh okay. Sorry. I thought someone was saying he would get rid of Wallace cause all he can do is run deep, which by the way is totally untrue. Wallace is a very good route runner when called upon to do. And that we had no QB's who can throw the deep ball. Which is of course ridiculous.

I don't remember saying anything about a quarterback not being able to throw the ball deep. What I'm saying is, is that we are expecting Wallace to break out at the moment and become more of a complete receiver in his game, to at which case he's not right now.

He's a young, second year player with his first year at the #2 position and we mainly connect on deep balls with Wallace more than anything. I'm not saying he isn't a good route runner, he is, but right now he's our ace deep, which leaves room for improvement with becoming more of a complete receiver with hitch, slants, or screen routes that can get him into playing some Y.A.C as well on blocking on the perimeter. He's a work in progress, but has stepped up immensely. Like I said, Wallace's average numbers are mainly him only catching 2-3 balls that result into 50+ yards downfield because that's the best part of his game.

I'm just saying that givin every single guy on that list, Wallace is the most replaceable since we got guys like Emmauel Sanders and Antonio Brown, two speedy receivers, who could be groomed down the road.

I'll go through them indidually:

Ben Roethlisberger: Self explanatory. Franchise quarterback. Elite quarterback. 2 time Super Bowl winner. Already on pace to smash every record by any Steelers quarterback. Impressive W-L record including playoffs. One of, if not, the best clutch QB in the game.

Rashard Mendenhall: #1 draft pick. Has the ability to bring us back to our roots that we haven't seen since the days of Jerome Bettis. Smash mouth, North-South runner. Valuable. Explosive.

Hines Ward: Holds every Steelers wide receiving record and continuing on pace to break more. Ageless. Best blocking receiver in the game. Warrior. Gritty. Hall of Famer. Reliable, chain moving possession receiver. One of the best in the game.

Mike Wallace: Fast, speedy, quick, shifty. Can get down the field in a blink of an eye. Go to guy deep. Can split defenders with ease. Ready to take over #2 spot.

Heath Miller: The best overall tight-end in the league. Stout run blocker. Weapon in the passing game. Strong. Creates mis-match. Always delivering a hit. QB's best friend when things go wrong.

Max Starks: Anchor of our offensive line. Can play noth Left Tackle, and Right Tackle. Only player on Oline that won 2 Super Bowls. Played on top caliber lines. Key ingredient into togetherness and stability of the O-line. Leader.

Troy Polamalu: The best players to ever play the game today. Best defensive player in this era. Feared. Athletic. Freak.

James Harrison: Unblockable. Defensive player of the year. Made the greatest defensive play in Super Bowl history. Will only get better with age. Strong as a silverback gorilla. Mean. Will go down as a great on the long list of Pittsburgh Steelers linebackers. One of the league's most feared sack catalyst.

LaMaar Woodley: Young. Poweful. Pro-Bowl outside linebacker. Shares the honor of one of the league's most feared sack catalyst opposite James Harrison. Fits perfectly in the Steelers 3-4 defensive. Can stop the run, drop into coverage and rush the passer better than anyone. Our future.

Judging by all of those positional positions and what each player brings to our football team, and to answer the given question, IMHO it's Wallace who's the most replaceable at the moment. Would I replace him? HELL NO! I don't want to lose anyone of these guys. Just answering the question the best I can in fairness. Love me some Mike Wallace.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 07:14 PM
did it ever occur to you that maybe , just maybe, ward is running deeper DESIGNED routes than miller is ?
you also gotta ask the question , how often is miller the primary receiver in arians scheme ? i'm guessing not very often.

I understand what you are saying but it wasn't me who decided to say Heath was Ben's favorite target on 3rd downs during the past 2 years. It was that statement that motivated me to compare the 2 on achieving a first down on 3rd down. Ward of course smoked like 34-15. After that someone said maybe he catches more but just gets stopped short. It is then I decided to show that he does NOT catch more third down passes than Ward. It is then that it was highlighted that on 1/3 of the catches he does catch, the announcer will still say...and it wasn't enough and the Steelers will punt.

I know you guys want to blame everything on Arians. Heath just needs to step up. After that one 21 yard catch he made early, he was shut down to 1 catch for 4 yards the whole game. They were covering him with a regular LB...no DB, no double team. On zones he could not find the holes. That's on him ...really.

Watch the 10 minute highlights to see if you are impressed with his run blocking. I watched him every single play...not impressive. I must secretly admit, he looked good when he stayed back to pass protect. If you watch the tape and you disagree, just let me know. Let's keep it friendly.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 07:28 PM
Heath Miller: The best overall tight-end in the league. Stout run blocker. Weapon in the passing game. Strong. Creates mis-match. Always delivering a hit. QB's best friend when things go wrong.



Of course everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. I will disagree about best "overall". There are many I would rank higher. His run blocking on film last week wasn't impressive (I'll be rewatching each week). He rarely creates a mismatch. He was easily handled by 1 LB. He runs as slow as a lineman. There are many who would be better weapons in the passing game.

I don't think we would miss him for the year too much. Spaeth and Johnson would have to step up their games.

I don't want to waste time talking about potential. What I will say is for what he does for us, any top 15 TE could step in and be equally or more productive overall. There is no way I would rather give up Wallace for the season. We don't know whether Sanders and Brown can focus and catch as dependably (assuming they can get the separation in the first place).

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 07:33 PM
This just doesn't make much sense. I'm assuming those who are picking Starks are skipping the title of the thread and the first post and just interpreting it as "Which is you least favorite player long term on the team?"

Otherwise, I hope those who keep picking Starks will offer their reasoning.

StainlessStill
09-28-2010, 07:36 PM
Of course everyone is entitled to his/her opinion. I will disagree about best "overall". There are many I would rank higher. His run blocking on film last week wasn't impressive (I'll be rewatching each week). He rarely creates a mismatch. He was easily handled by 1 LB. He runs as slow as a lineman. There are many who would be better weapons in the passing game.

I don't think we would miss him for the year too much. Spaeth and Johnson would have to step up their games.

I don't want to waste time talking about potential. What I will say is for what he does for us, any top 15 TE could step in and be equally or more productive overall. There is no way I would rather give up Wallace for the season. We don't know whether Sanders and Brown can focus and catch as dependably (assuming they can get the separation in the first place).

I guess best overall wasn't a fair comparison, since we don't ask Heath to do too much in the passing game since he's too good of a run blocker to not use him as an extra man in the run game to help with either protection or keeping him in the box to help out a so-so line. Most of the time, we line Heath up strongside to the right, a place where Mendenhall has been racking up most of his yards this season.

Last season, we saw how Heath can be utilized in the passing game and was oh-so close in getting his first 1,000 yard season. With Ben back, Heath will be a weapon in the passing game and give us the mis-matches he creates. Plus, he's always dragging people and lowering the boom. He was voted one of the captains of the team this year as well. I love that.

MasterOfPuppets
09-28-2010, 07:39 PM
I understand what you are saying but it wasn't me who decided to say Heath was Ben's favorite target on 3rd downs during the past 2 years. It was that statement that motivated me to compare the 2 on achieving a first down on 3rd down. Ward of course smoked like 34-15. After that someone said maybe he catches more but just gets stopped short. It is then I decided to show that he does NOT catch more third down passes than Ward. It is then that it was highlighted that on 1/3 of the catches he does catch, the announcer will still say...and it wasn't enough and the Steelers will punt.

I know you guys want to blame everything on Arians. Heath just needs to step up. After that one 21 yard catch he made early, he was shut down to 1 catch for 4 yards the whole game. They were covering him with a regular LB...no DB, no double team. On zones he could not find the holes. That's on him ...really.

Watch the 10 minute highlights to see if you are impressed with his run blocking. I watched him every single play...not impressive. I must secretly admit, he looked good when he stayed back to pass protect. If you watch the tape and you disagree, just let me know. Let's keep it friendly.
so he had 1 less reception than the 1 & 2 options...:noidea: ... if your TE is the leading receiver on the team , its because ..
A . your receivers can't get open
B . the game plan was built around the TE being the primary option.
C. the qb prefers to throw short passes in the middle of the field.

stb_steeler
09-28-2010, 07:42 PM
We back on the Heath kick again....:doh:

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 07:55 PM
I guess best overall wasn't a fair comparison, since we don't ask Heath to do too much in the passing game since he's too good of a run blocker to not use him as an extra man in the run game to help with either protection or keeping him in the box to help out a so-so line. Most of the time, we line Heath up strongside to the right, a place where Mendenhall has been racking up most of his yards this season.

Last season, we saw how Heath can be utilized in the passing game and was oh-so close in getting his first 1,000 yard season. With Ben back, Heath will be a weapon in the passing game and give us the mis-matches he creates. Plus, he's always dragging people and lowering the boom. He was voted one of the captains of the team this year as well. I love that.

Still, he only had 37 first downs last year in his best year compared to Gates 61 fiest downs and Clarks 59 (I believe) first downs. That's OK. That's what one of the elite TEs might have in one of their worst years...and that was with us being pass happy.

He does go out on many passes...he is just slow and can be covered by a LB.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 08:01 PM
so he had 1 less reception than the 1 & 2 options...:noidea: ... if your TE is the leading receiver on the team , its because ..
A . your receivers can't get open
B . the game plan was built around the TE being the primary option.
C. the qb prefers to throw short passes in the middle of the field.

Last I checked Wallace and Ward both had TDs. No problem. I hope he steps up against Baltimore. I agree there is no need to compare him to recivers. It was someon else who started comparing hi to Ward. It is better to compare his productivity to other TEs. It's a waste though because whenever he is not productive, people will just say it was because he was blocking.(random guessing). Vernon Davis and Jason Witten are great blockers too.

We back on the Heath kick again....:doh:

I just don't like when people inflate his impact. I watched some of the big runs from last week and his blocks weren't critical. We should just stop inflating him. He needs to step up against Baltimore and stop being so dull.

Do you agree his impact is more than our starting LT?

StainlessStill
09-28-2010, 08:08 PM
Still, he only had 37 first downs last year in his best year compared to Gates 61 fiest downs and Clarks 59 (I believe) first downs. That's OK. That's what one of the elite TEs might have in one of their worst years...and that was with us being pass happy.

He does go out on many passes...he is just slow and can be covered by a LB.

Gates and ESP Clark are pretty much used as a receiver in those systems. If you look at the offensive stats for both the Chargers and Colts, those were both teams in the league that were worst at running the football. In fact, the Chargers ranked 31 and the Colts ranked 32 in rushing offense versus # 5 (Chargers) and #2 (Colts) in passing offense last year. Gates and Clark are fitted into the mold that they are sometimes the first look on the field, while Heath is either our hot-read, or our 3rd or 4th option in the passing game.

Still, in pass happy standards in our system, and we were certainly pass happy in Pittsburgh last year (but only to Pittsburgh's standard) we still run a more of a balanced offense and will continue to pound the ball at will and stick to it. Will we be passing more? Yes, but nothing to be confused with an Chargers or Colts system offensively so comparing Heath's numbers to their numbers is something that just can't be compared in hindsight.

SteelKnight
09-28-2010, 09:00 PM
Gates and ESP Clark are pretty much used as a receiver in those systems. If you look at the offensive stats for both the Chargers and Colts, those were both teams in the league that were worst at running the football. In fact, the Chargers ranked 31 and the Colts ranked 32 in rushing offense versus # 5 (Chargers) and #2 (Colts) in passing offense last year. Gates and Clark are fitted into the mold that they are sometimes the first look on the field, while Heath is either our hot-read, or our 3rd or 4th option in the passing game.

Still, in pass happy standards in our system, and we were certainly pass happy in Pittsburgh last year (but only to Pittsburgh's standard) we still run a more of a balanced offense and will continue to pound the ball at will and stick to it. Will we be passing more? Yes, but nothing to be confused with an Chargers or Colts system offensively so comparing Heath's numbers to their numbers is something that just can't be compared in hindsight.

Reasonable points on Clark but if either Gates or Clark were on our team, I believe he would still be very productive.

On Gates, LT had not been as productive the last 2 years for the Chargers (injuries etc). That is the reason the Chargers were low with rushing. In LTs Hay day (for example 2007...ranked 7th), Gates was still excellent (for example 2007 had 924 yards, 49 1st downs, 9 TDs). Gates has been good whether or not the Chargers have had a good running game.

Still there are other TEs who can block and catch like Davis and Witten.

I think you'll find that a lot of the good TEs are on good rushing teams. Gonzalez is an example. He is elite. Atl has a good running game and there were many years in KC where KC had a good running game. It really depends on the line and the RB (Fortunately they had Homes and Johnson).

Frank Gore runs well. Dallas had good running for many years. Adrian Peterson runs well.

I don't think good catching TE means poor rushing. I don't want through every case unless you insist. lol

You remember the way Heath was able to find that hole in the Zone defense and get that 21 yard gain? I wish he would do that 4 times a game. I wish he required double teams in the end zone. He has to be wide open compared to some other TEs who can win a 1 v 1 mismatch.

StainlessStill
09-28-2010, 09:16 PM
Reasonable points on Clark but if either Gates or Clark were on our team, I believe he would still be very productive.

On Gates, LT had not been as productive the last 2 years for the Chargers (injuries etc). That is the reason the Chargers were low with rushing. In LTs Hay day (for example 2007...ranked 7th), Gates was still excellent (for example 2007 had 924 yards, 49 1st downs, 9 TDs). Gates has been good whether or not the Chargers have had a good running game.

Still there are other TEs who can block and catch like Davis and Witten.

I think you'll find that a lot of the good TEs are on good rushing teams. Gonzalez is an example. He is elite. Atl has a good running game and there were many years in KC where KC had a good running game. It really depends on the line and the RB (Fortunately they had Homes and Johnson).

Frank Gore runs well. Dallas had good running for many years. Adrian Peterson runs well.

I don't think good catching TE means poor rushing. I don't want through every case unless you insist. lol

You remember the way Heath was able to find that hole in the Zone defense and get that 21 yard gain? I wish he would do that 4 times a game. I wish he required double teams in the end zone. He has to be wide open compared to some other TEs who can win a 1 v 1 mismatch.

I'm not instilling that every successful tight end plays on a bad rushing offense. Point is, is that all of those players mentioned: Gonzalez, Witten, Davis, Clark, Gates, etc. are used more as an extra receiver on the field and are used to lineup in many places on the field whether it be the slot position, split end, or in many cases, flanker.

Heath is used over 90% in our running game as a drive blocker and a max protector or in some cases, H-back. Never have I've seen him out wide. There are more packages involved around those tight ends in their systems than how we utilize our tight ends in ours. If a guy like Dallas Clark would be plugged in our system, then he wouldn't do jack squat and would rarely be asked to block. He'd serve at best as a slot reciever the way we run our offense. All those tight ends are involved in a pass happy, fun and gun type offense who targets big tight ends down the field. Not so much with Heath, he rarely gets any opportunities in the passing game and when he does, they are short yardage.

I'll use the logic and flip it IMHO. I think Heath could CERTAINLY excel and put up those kinds of number that Clark and Gates do in their respective systems if given the same treatment (we drafted Heath in the first place to give us a threat receiving, but also has the ability to be a just as good drive blocker) but I don't think Gates or Clark would be able to take on the task of being asked to block most of the time in our offense. Those guy's specialty is to take off down field.

SteelKnight
09-29-2010, 03:59 AM
I'm not instilling that every successful tight end plays on a bad rushing offense. Point is, is that all of those players mentioned: Gonzalez, Witten, Davis, Clark, Gates, etc. are used more as an extra receiver on the field and are used to lineup in many places on the field whether it be the slot position, split end, or in many cases, flanker.

Heath is used over 90% in our running game as a drive blocker and a max protector or in some cases, H-back. Never have I've seen him out wide. There are more packages involved around those tight ends in their systems than how we utilize our tight ends in ours. If a guy like Dallas Clark would be plugged in our system, then he wouldn't do jack squat and would rarely be asked to block. He'd serve at best as a slot reciever the way we run our offense. All those tight ends are involved in a pass happy, fun and gun type offense who targets big tight ends down the field. Not so much with Heath, he rarely gets any opportunities in the passing game and when he does, they are short yardage.

I'll use the logic and flip it IMHO. I think Heath could CERTAINLY excel and put up those kinds of number that Clark and Gates do in their respective systems if given the same treatment (we drafted Heath in the first place to give us a threat receiving, but also has the ability to be a just as good drive blocker) but I don't think Gates or Clark would be able to take on the task of being asked to block most of the time in our offense. Those guy's specialty is to take off down field.

It's not that I don't understand what you guys are saying. I just think you guys go out of your way to overcompensate for some lack of production. The truth may lie somewhere between our two points of view.

I don't think Heath could do what Gates or Clark do because he doesn't have the beast mismatch skills of Gates or the speed and separation skills of Clark.
Witten and Davis can both run block well. They also both can catch and create mismatches.

As to what Heath's potential is, I am uncertain. I like the way he has solid hands but I am not sure if he has the speed and route running juking skills skills to get open and create mismatches or the dominance to jump up and beat someone in the air who is closely covering him.

He's the kind of guy who can catch a pass when open but none of us know if he is getting open. He should have come through more often last year on 3rd down than 8 times given our horrendous 3rd down conversion percentage. He also should have come through more in the Red Zone given our awful Red Zone TD conversion %.

I hope you guys are right and he WILL BE beastly. I don't care about potential anymore. He is no rookie. It's about what actually happens. He gets plenty of opportunities to go out for passes...plenty. You guys act like they never let him go out. As far as the length of his routes, if he wanted to do more he would talk to Arians if that's the issue.

Wallace said this recently:
"Every man has to do his job. Every man should want to be the hero. I want to be the hero. I want to be the guy who makes plays."

Does Heath want to be the Hero? Does he want to be the guy who makes plays? Or does he just want to be the guy who did what they told him to.

Skill-sets, dominance, and performance all create opportunities. This is what I think people forget. We don't say Ward doesn't get the deep balls because they don't send him deep or that Moore doesn't get the goal line power rushes because they keep giving them to Mendenhall and Redman but he could be a beast running inside.

Maybe I wish he were not so humble and quiet. Beast out Heath.

SteelKnight
09-29-2010, 04:12 AM
I'm not instilling ...

In addtition, I'm not sure if it is "heart" or caring or spirit but they voted him a captain. He needs to be a leader. He doesn't need to be super vocal but if SD were having trouble on 3rd down or in the Red Zone, don't you think Gates would say "C'mon...I'll get it for us...throw it to me."? Don't you think Clark comes back excited saying "I think I can beat this guy." I really wonder whether Heath DESIRES the ball. He's might be the least openly excited of the top 15 TEs...and maybe that's just it.

zulater
09-29-2010, 05:14 AM
Geez, somehow i get the feeling that this is a set up for us to pick Heath Miller.:coffee:

I guess I nailed it on this post. :popcorn:

theplatypus
09-29-2010, 05:15 AM
Really. I think he will be better now that he has an O-line and a running back who can run short yardage if he chooses to do so.

It's probably a little premature to say that our O-line is better.

Curtain_of_Steel
09-29-2010, 07:59 AM
We have depth for Harrison? Art is that you padding the way to cut him next year?LOL

What depth to replace Harrison do we have? Remember, REPLACE not stuff a shirt with someone who has gotten some late mop up sacks. You replace Harrison Woodley gets held on both arms with a double team.

zulater
09-29-2010, 09:43 AM
http://www.steelerslounge.com/2010/09/analyzing-steelers-offensive-line-weeks-wins/

But if you are looking for the biggest explanation for why Pittsburgh is averaging 4.7 yards per carry even though teams know they are going to run the ball, I’ll point to the tight ends. Pittsburgh asks a lot of its tight ends. They often have three of them in the game (with David Johnson splitting time at fullback, tight end and H-back), and the scheme often requires Matt Spaeth or Heath Miller to block a defensive end at the point of attack.

In past years, Spaeth hasn’t been up to that job. This year he’s been excellent at it. When charting the tight ends’ blocks, I don’t expect them to win every battle. After all, they are often up against bigger, stronger defensive linemen. But against the Buccaneers, it was Spaeth’s and Miller’s blocks that gave Isaac Redman and Rashard Mendenhall room to run in the fourth quarter when the Bucs stacked the line with eight and nine men.

Heath Miller: When the Pro Bowl voting heats up, everyone should remember that while Antonio Gates and other tight ends with gaudier stats are really big wide receivers, Miller is asked to root out defensive ends more than he is asked to split a Cover-2. And he does a good job of both, as we saw again this week.

1 OK block on LB Yes
2 Good block on S Yes
3 Ugly block but it works Yes
4 Good block on Quincy Black Yes
5 Good block on LB helps spring Mendenhall Yes
6 GREAT. Opens hole with nice block on DB Yes
7 Tries to help on DE, but spin move makes him lose Crowder No
8 Handles CB Yes
9 Takes on DE one-on-one Yes
10 Takes on LB, OK Yes
11 Good block on Crowder Yes
12 Good job on DE Yes
13 Finally finds someone to block 15 yards downfield Yes
14 Nice job on LB Yes
15 Can’t handle LB who makes tackle No
16 Chips on way out to route Yes
17 Nice job on LB Yes
18 OK block on DE Yes
19 GREAT. Creates hole with good block Yes
20 QB sneak. Fires ahead Yes
21 Very good job on LB Yes
22 Destroys his man Yes
23 Leads Mendenhall through hole OK block Yes
24 Kicks man out to create hole Yes
25 DT’s DE with Spaeth Yes
26 Good block on backside Yes
27 Good job Yes
28 KEY BLOCK. Moves his man creates hole Yes
29 Good block on DE Yes
30 Good enough on LB Yes



Nuff said, those that understand the Steelers way knew all this without seeing it. But perhaps some of those that don't yet understand the intangibles Heath posesses will see the light?

Heath is asked and expected to blocks DE and LB's every game, and block them well, no other "pass catching TE" in the league is asked to block anything other than DB's except on a very rare occcasion. .

StainlessStill
09-29-2010, 09:52 AM
http://www.steelerslounge.com/2010/09/analyzing-steelers-offensive-line-weeks-wins/

But if you are looking for the biggest explanation for why Pittsburgh is averaging 4.7 yards per carry even though teams know they are going to run the ball, Iíll point to the tight ends. Pittsburgh asks a lot of its tight ends. They often have three of them in the game (with David Johnson splitting time at fullback, tight end and H-back), and the scheme often requires Matt Spaeth or Heath Miller to block a defensive end at the point of attack.

In past years, Spaeth hasnít been up to that job. This year heís been excellent at it. When charting the tight endsí blocks, I donít expect them to win every battle. After all, they are often up against bigger, stronger defensive linemen. But against the Buccaneers, it was Spaethís and Millerís blocks that gave Isaac Redman and Rashard Mendenhall room to run in the fourth quarter when the Bucs stacked the line with eight and nine men.


Heath Miller: When the Pro Bowl voting heats up, everyone should remember that while Antonio Gates and other tight ends with gaudier stats are really big wide receivers, Miller is asked to root out defensive ends more than he is asked to split a Cover-2. And he does a good job of both, as we saw again this week.

1 OK block on LB Yes
2 Good block on S Yes
3 Ugly block but it works Yes
4 Good block on Quincy Black Yes
5 Good block on LB helps spring Mendenhall Yes
6 GREAT. Opens hole with nice block on DB Yes
7 Tries to help on DE, but spin move makes him lose Crowder No
8 Handles CB Yes
9 Takes on DE one-on-one Yes
10 Takes on LB, OK Yes
11 Good block on Crowder Yes
12 Good job on DE Yes
13 Finally finds someone to block 15 yards downfield Yes
14 Nice job on LB Yes
15 Canít handle LB who makes tackle No
16 Chips on way out to route Yes
17 Nice job on LB Yes
18 OK block on DE Yes
19 GREAT. Creates hole with good block Yes
20 QB sneak. Fires ahead Yes
21 Very good job on LB Yes
22 Destroys his man Yes
23 Leads Mendenhall through hole OK block Yes
24 Kicks man out to create hole Yes
25 DTís DE with Spaeth Yes
26 Good block on backside Yes
27 Good job Yes
28 KEY BLOCK. Moves his man creates hole Yes
29 Good block on DE Yes
30 Good enough on LB Yes



Nuff said, those that understand the Steelers way knew all this without seeing it. But perhaps some of those that don't yet understand the intangibles Heath posesses will see the light?

Heath is asked to blocks DE and LB's every game, no other "pass catching TE" in the league is asked to block anything other than DB's except on a very rare occcasion. .

:applaudit:

gameface75
09-29-2010, 12:02 PM
Easy

1) Starks first, cause he is average at best and way overpaid.
2) Harrison. Sucks but given his age and since we have depth, he is second.
3) Tie..Ward/Heath. Ward is a great face to our team. But he is 34, and is winding down. Heath does not have the Hall of fame pedigree that Ward does. But at this time he is definitely more valuable.

For you to say that James Harrison sucks , proves that you dont know a damn thing.

SteelKnight
09-29-2010, 02:13 PM
http://www.steelerslounge.com/2010/09/analyzing-steelers-offensive-line-weeks-wins/

[I]But if you are looking for the biggest ...

Heath is asked and expected to blocks DE and LB's every game, and block them well, no other "pass catching TE" in the league is asked to block anything other than DB's except on a very rare occcasion. .

Thanks for the reference. I actually had thought of doing such a thing for this week's game.

I did do that for the highlight film (10 min). Some of the blocks he gives heath credit for wrt running were not that effective it is just that the runner ran to the other side...but he didn't necessarily look good. His pass blocking looked excellent.

Believe it or not, HE DOES go out for passes. I wish I knew the percentage of passes that he goes out.

Also believe it or not, other TEs from other teams do block on running plays. I think when commentators are saying that they are not very good, that is far different from saying that they never block.

We are probably not that far off on Heath. I like him. We are both satisfied with his work in the running game and pass blocking. It's just that you are satisfied with his work going out for passes and I would like to see much more from him if he has the potential. If that is his best then fine...but I don't want to hear people inflating his pass worthiness.

So you might ask,what do I want to see more of for him to be considered "elite"?
-get open more, create separation (may have to do with jukes while route running)
-create mismatch problems. If they put a linebacker on you, be able to outrun him. If they put a safety or 3rd CB on you, be able to out-muscle him for the jump ball.
-Become a bigger dependable Red Zone target. Be able to go up and get the ball if tossed up and you are covered 1 v 1.
-Be more of a presence on 3rd down. We need him. 8 is not great (1st downs)
-Know how to attack zones and find the holes.

That's it. It is these things that I don't think he does excellently. I want the broadcaster to say "They better watch out for Heath Miller".

Do you agree it would be great if he could be better at these things too or are you saying you feel he is great at all these things? I argue to make a point, not to "win" so it helpful to know if you see some of what I'm saying. If you agree with part of it, it doesn't mean you "lose" etc. lol

SteelKnight
09-29-2010, 02:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by whatdoiknow View Post
Easy

1) Starks first, cause he is average at best and way overpaid.
2) Harrison. Sucks but given his age and since we have depth, he is second.
3) Tie..Ward/Heath. Ward is a great face to our team. But he is 34, and is winding down. Heath does not have the Hall of fame pedigree that Ward does. But at this time he is definitely more valuable.


For you to say that James Harrison sucks , proves that you dont know a damn thing.

I don't think he was saying Harrison sucks. He was saying (I think) it sucks to have to put his name up ...and then went on to explain by he did it.

SteelKnight
09-29-2010, 02:22 PM
...

By the way zu, my picture was created with you in mind. Do you get it? I still can't stop laughing over that.:sofunny: No insult intended. That was just funny.

SteelKnight
11-09-2010, 09:44 PM
Just wondering if people are feeling the same way. I tried to explain but nah...nobody got it. I don't understand the voting.

tony hipchest
11-09-2010, 11:11 PM
i dont get the poll. you listed 8 pro-bowl calibur players + max starks. what did you expect?

a more realistic poll would be a list of our average players including ike taylor, skippy, kemoeatu, clark, flozell etc.

:hunch: seems like a baited poll where you were expecting heath miller to get the most votes to prove a belabored point. :noidea:

Fire Arians
11-09-2010, 11:13 PM
Just wondering if people are feeling the same way. I tried to explain but nah...nobody got it. I don't understand the voting.

i voted woodley and stand by that. im a big fan of lamar, but we are deep at linebacker. timmons being able to play olb and having foote/fox to cover the inside would make his loss hurt, but not that much. worilds also showing a lot of promise when given PT

losing harrison or timmons would make me shit my pants though.

DanRooney
11-10-2010, 02:29 AM
This is so easy. Hines Ward.

He's so god damn slow we wouldn't miss a beat. His leadership doesn't matter because he could always lead from the sideline and we already have a sissified version of his already on the roster called Randle El. It would give a chance for Sanders to see more balls, which is a good thing, and let Antonio Brown dress, which is a really good thing.

Starks doesn't have viable backups. Tony Hills/Scott/Essex are all trash.

Wallace is our only legit receiver.

Mendenhall is our only legit runningback.

Ben Roethlisberger is one of the best QBs in the game.

DanRooney
11-10-2010, 02:30 AM
Jesus Christ. Did someone say James Harrison sucks? Unbelievable. He's been our best defensive player for the past 3 years. Timmons and him are playing on another level than the rest of the team.

SteelKnight
11-10-2010, 01:29 PM
i dont get the poll. you listed 8 pro-bowl calibur players + max starks. what did you expect?

a more realistic poll would be a list of our average players including ike taylor, skippy, kemoeatu, clark, flozell etc.

:hunch: seems like a baited poll where you were expecting heath miller to get the most votes to prove a belabored point. :noidea:

What do I expect? I expected sound reasoning.

I placed important players in the poll. Starting LT is an important position.

It was not a baited poll but I was expecting Heath Miller to be high. There are no tricks involved. When we were getting things like Heath Miller is even better than Gates, I wanted to see what kind of reasoning was behind the posters. Actually, had they chosen Heath, it would have strengthened their arguments for me...showing that even though they liked him and thought highly of him, they were willing to be analytical about a situation. Once I saw the results, I saw it made no sense to me and it gave me an idea where people were coming from.

So...what did I expect? I expected them to answer the question honestly. I would have. No tricks.

Now that it has become reality I hope they will come back and explain.

SteelKnight
11-10-2010, 01:34 PM
This is so easy. Hines Ward.

He's so god damn slow we wouldn't miss a beat. His leadership doesn't matter because he could always lead from the sideline and we already have a sissified version of his already on the roster called Randle El. It would give a chance for Sanders to see more balls, which is a good thing, and let Antonio Brown dress, which is a really good thing.

Starks doesn't have viable backups. Tony Hills/Scott/Essex are all trash.

Wallace is our only legit receiver.

Mendenhall is our only legit runningback.

Ben Roethlisberger is one of the best QBs in the game.

Hines has had a couple of good games for us since Ben has come back.

Jesus Christ. Did someone say James Harrison sucks? Unbelievable. He's been our best defensive player for the past 3 years. Timmons and him are playing on another level than the rest of the team.

I think that person was misquoted. He was saying something like it would suck to lose Harrison but he's getting older so he said something like "Harrison...sucks but..." and it got misinterpreted.

SteelKnight
11-10-2010, 01:41 PM
i dont get the poll. you listed 8 pro-bowl calibur players + max starks. what did you expect?

a more realistic poll would be a list of our average players including ike taylor, skippy, kemoeatu, clark, flozell etc.

:hunch: seems like a baited poll where you were expecting heath miller to get the most votes to prove a belabored point. :noidea:

So since you don't think Starks, our starting LT, deserves to be up there as one of our most important starters, who did you choose to lose for the 2010 season and why?

One reason why it was fair is I posted this poll AFTER we saw how miserable Hill and Scott played for Starks once he was out. So if he was under-appreciated, that should have given people the chance to appreciate his importance to the team...no luck.

I tried to pick our 10 most important players (poll cap is 10)...that I thought the fans would rate as highest... but when I was making the poll, I forgot to include Pouncey as I initially had planned.

chacha
11-10-2010, 01:47 PM
Since Max IS out for the rest of the season I obviously picked him, but he is gonna be sorely missed

SteelKnight
11-10-2010, 01:54 PM
Since Max IS out for the rest of the season I obviously picked him, but he is gonna be sorely missed

Nah...this poll was started really early in the season and the fans chose Starks as least important to our 2010 campaign even after the poor performance of Hills and Scott when he was out. I think they just vote based on who their favorites are rather than considering the importance of the player to the team and who could replace that person.

So who would you have chosen?

I brought the thread back up because I was hoping all the people who chose Starks can explain
1.Whether they have changed their minds OR
2. What their plan is now that it has come true.

It's not an I told you so moment but I just want to hear some of the reasoning.

steelerchad
11-10-2010, 02:02 PM
I guess we'll find out. I would have said Starks, Ward, or Heath. WIth Starks, he's avg. at best for left tackles so how far could the dropoff be. I guess we'll find out now. Maybe Ben can grow a 3rd eye on the left side of his head so he can pick up the free man coming to take his head off a little quicker.

zulater
11-10-2010, 02:55 PM
Since Max IS out for the rest of the season I obviously picked him, but he is gonna be sorely missed

Disagree. Max is a very inconsistent player. I don't think the drop off will be that noticable. I know Scott struggled earliar in the season the one game in his place, but he was also cramping up that game, so I don't think that was an accurate barometer. Truth be told , Scott outplayed Starks this past week against the Bengals after he went in. Given a a full week of practice he'll be fine. Not great, but ok, just as the player he replaced was.

SteelKnight
11-10-2010, 06:58 PM
Disagree. Max is a very inconsistent player. I don't think the drop off will be that noticable. I know Scott struggled earliar in the season the one game in his place, but he was also cramping up that game, so I don't think that was an accurate barometer. Truth be told , Scott outplayed Starks this past week against the Bengals after he went in. Given a a full week of practice he'll be fine. Not great, but ok, just as the player he replaced was.

I sure hope you are right. Personally, I don't think Starks is that bad. He's better than Marvel Smith with that bad back. He might be an average LT but that's an accomplishment. I really think pouncey helped his game because he was allowed to phonebooth without looking stupid. On most teams they all allowed to push the defender around the QB but when the middle of the pocket is collapsing and the QB can't step up then it looks like your guy beat you. With a strong middle, he can now push people beyond.

Scott looked dreadful. I hope you are right with the cramps. Last time he had time to prepare too but I'm not sure who got most of the snaps Hills or him.

Ben has only been sacked 7 times and I'd say like 4 were his fault. Boy...it seems like he's holding on to the ball even LONGER than previous years but the line has been that much better. Oh...when I say Ben's fault, I mean Ben or the hot receiver...not the O-line. Sacks after 7 seconds...lol Gimmie a break. Sack?

Zu...I do remember you were reasonable with this poll.

I'm shocked there are still people choosing Starks. They just choose their favorites. They don't care. I'm glad they are not in control. I'm glad I'm not either considering I wanted Gay cut from the team. That guy is a helpful player. He should be on Welker all game...man cov from what I understand.

Steeler4life1972
11-10-2010, 07:13 PM
Arians has to get his head outta his ass....but to be honest I liked the fact he didnt use as much of a no backfield.

SteelKnight
11-10-2010, 10:38 PM
For Starks number to have gone up even after the injury makes me nervous about the voting on this board. lol One person explained that he picked Starks because he is already out but what about the others. They still don't see the value of a starting LT? Amazing. Shocking. Fans just pick their favorites...that's what can be concluded.

Zu offered an explanation of how he feels Scott will be able to cover. What about the others?

tony hipchest
11-10-2010, 11:28 PM
the OP almost seems offended that so many people chose starks, infact he seems to demand justification from those who have voted such.

there are a few simple truths he is ignoring-

-of all players listed in the poll, starks may very well be the least talented of the bunch.

-starks is the only one who hasnt (nor ever will) be an all-pro or voted to the pro bowl.

-the laws of supply and demand in the league dictate the value placed on a particular position. those laws have dictated that a QB is about the most valuable position on a team. LT's and CB's are right behind, as is the edge pass rusher.

-Teams dictate what players will be paid according to market value, thus establishing the value of said player.

- all players listed in the poll who are not in their rookie contracts earn more salary than max starks. it is evident who the steelers feel is most valuable. his years of playing under the franchise tag are done. mendenhall, wallace, and woodley will all sign significantly bigger contracts than the one max got.

:nervous: the persistance of the OP makes me nervous.

tony hipchest
11-11-2010, 01:11 AM
I tried to pick our 10 most important players (poll cap is 10)...that I thought the fans would rate as highest... but when I was making the poll, I forgot to include Pouncey as I initially had planned.

so just to get things straight, you tried to pick out our 10 most important players and conveniently left out keisel, hampton, AND smith? :confused:

:nervous:

SteelKnight
11-11-2010, 12:07 PM
the OP almost seems offended that so many people chose starks, infact he seems to demand justification from those who have voted such.

there are a few simple truths he is ignoring-

-of all players listed in the poll, starks may very well be the least talented of the bunch.

-starks is the only one who hasnt (nor ever will) be an all-pro or voted to the pro bowl.

-the laws of supply and demand in the league dictate the value placed on a particular position. those laws have dictated that a QB is about the most valuable position on a team. LT's and CB's are right behind, as is the edge pass rusher.

-Teams dictate what players will be paid according to market value, thus establishing the value of said player.

- all players listed in the poll who are not in their rookie contracts earn more salary than max starks. it is evident who the steelers feel is most valuable. his years of playing under the franchise tag are done. mendenhall, wallace, and woodley will all sign significantly bigger contracts than the one max got.

:nervous: the persistance of the OP makes me nervous.

We are talking about who we would have been willing to lose this year. We are not talking about rebuilding after the season and long term value. That's what IMO makes your arguments less valid.

SteelKnight
11-11-2010, 12:18 PM
so just to get things straight, you tried to pick out our 10 most important players and conveniently left out keisel, hampton, AND smith? :confused:

:nervous:

Yes...Smith was a reasonable choice but I had decided to go with Pouncey instead (which I explained I accidentally left off) just because Hood had been having a good off season and I didn't want to make an easy out by putting a DE...whether Smith or Keisel. If Hood wasn't around, I likely would have found a way to slip Smith on there. (though for space reasons, it would have been difficult. You know who I would replace him with...lol)

Personally I would rather lose Smith than Starks (for the year)...as when Smith went down, I was disappointed. I knew we might lose a little bit on our run defense (1st to 5th maybe) but I knew we would be good enough. With Starks, I'm actually nervous.

As for Hampton, I realize how important he is but Hoke seems to do a brilliant job every time he replaces Hampton. It didn't seem to offer the same challenge that the poll required.

Remember the poll only allows 10.

So back on topic, what was your choice and explanation? (remember 2010 season).

Let me be clear...the poll focuses on what the specific player means to the team this season. Simple.

SteelKnight
11-11-2010, 12:28 PM
All of this is helpful anyway. If people don't respect the importance of the LT on the team, it gives a flavor of what might be behind other polls...choose who gives you a warm feeling.

BTW...I hate the way they do the current Pro-Bowl before the SB removing many talented people on the top 2 teams so now in addition to injuries, you have to deal with the best players' teams actually being good. Now they look stupid begging people to attend. People turning them down...like Ben did last year. All that takes some prestige out of the Probowl. It is nice if you make the Probowl first ballot...otherwise I don't even want to hear about it.

lionslicer
11-11-2010, 01:19 PM
All of this is helpful anyway. If people don't respect the importance of the LT on the team, it gives a flavor of what might be behind other polls...choose who gives you a warm feeling.

BTW...I hate the way they do the current Pro-Bowl before the SB removing many talented people on the top 2 teams so now in addition to injuries, you have to deal with the best players' teams actually being good. Now they look stupid begging people to attend. People turning them down...like Ben did last year. All that takes some prestige out of the Probowl. It is nice if you make the Probowl first ballot...otherwise I don't even want to hear about it.

Pro bowl is such a joke now. In the AFC the 7th, 8th and 9th quarterbacks made the pro bowl.. Thats not a pro bowl, thats just medicore players getting a chance to play another game.. Same with other positions, too many medicore players made the pro bowl.
I'm all for letting more players being the pro bowl, but not that much more.

Also left tackle is very important to a right handed quarterback, people may have though Starks was still starting at Right tackle, a weak point for the steelers the past 7 or so years since Gandy left. But I think it wont be as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Ben steps up a lot, he usually gets sacked from the right instead of of the left, so he'll be fine.

tony hipchest
11-11-2010, 02:34 PM
We are talking about who we would have been willing to lose this year. We are not talking about rebuilding after the season and long term value. That's what IMO makes your arguments less valid.thats funny because i would say my argument is MORE valid than yours and the numbers in this poll indicate the majority of those who voted would probably agree.

the rooneys have already established starks value (i.e. "importance") for THIS season, just like they have with skippy, ben, harrison, troy, et al.

nobody said anything about rebuilding or long term future. trying to put that spin on it definitely invalidates your point.

according to your logic, jonathan scott and tony hills are now 2 of the top 10 most important players on the steelers because they play LT. perhaps you are getting the importance of the position vs the player who plays said position, confused. :noidea:

by league standards the LT is definitely one of the most important positions to a team (as proven by their salaries and frequency drafted inside the top 10 as opposed to kickers or safeties).

that doesnt mean that any scrub who happens to win that position in camp on a thin team is one of the most important players to that team.

Atlanta Dan
11-11-2010, 02:43 PM
i dont get the poll. you listed 8 pro-bowl calibur players + max starks. what did you expect?

a more realistic poll would be a list of our average players including ike taylor, skippy, kemoeatu, clark, flozell etc.

:hunch: seems like a baited poll where you were expecting heath miller to get the most votes to prove a belabored point. :noidea:

TH - losing Ike Taylor would IMO be a devastating loss equal to losing Woodley on the D side and worse than losing Starks

If the poll was really biased we could do a "which player or assistant coach would you lose for 2010" poll - guess who wins that poll in a landslide?

SteelKnight
11-11-2010, 04:33 PM
Pro bowl is such a joke now. In the AFC the 7th, 8th and 9th quarterbacks made the pro bowl.. Thats not a pro bowl, thats just medicore players getting a chance to play another game.. Same with other positions, too many medicore players made the pro bowl.
I'm all for letting more players being the pro bowl, but not that much more.

Also left tackle is very important to a right handed quarterback, people may have though Starks was still starting at Right tackle, a weak point for the steelers the past 7 or so years since Gandy left. But I think it wont be as big of a deal as people make it out to be. Ben steps up a lot, he usually gets sacked from the right instead of of the left, so he'll be fine.

I decided not to use the multiquote because tony's looks like it needs its own response. lol

We agree on the probowl.

About the sack more times from R instead of left, hopefully it wasn't because of Starks good play (if it's true). I don't think any Steelers fan on this board thinks Starks plays RT. lol

SteelKnight
11-11-2010, 04:48 PM
thats funny because i would say my argument is MORE valid than yours and the numbers in this poll indicate the majority of those who voted would probably agree.

the rooneys have already established starks value (i.e. "importance") for THIS season, just like they have with skippy, ben, harrison, troy, et al.

nobody said anything about rebuilding or long term future. trying to put that spin on it definitely invalidates your point.

according to your logic, jonathan scott and tony hills are now 2 of the top 10 most important players on the steelers because they play LT. perhaps you are getting the importance of the position vs the player who plays said position, confused. :noidea:

by league standards the LT is definitely one of the most important positions to a team (as proven by their salaries and frequency drafted inside the top 10 as opposed to kickers or safeties).

that doesnt mean that any scrub who happens to win that position in camp on a thin team is one of the most important players to that team.

I think the majority here has gone looney. lol

First, I did not try to spin your argument. The types of things you were describing sounded like you were focusing on long term value to me. I was trying to give the benefit of the doubt.

As far as my logic, it certainly matters who is playing the position ...and that's why we are having this discussion in the first place. We are talking about replacing a STARTING LT. Of course when evaluating, we must look at whether we are satisfied at that position (is the person competent and much more competent than his back up?) and who is back up to replace that position. It is precisely that Scott and Hills are not up to Stark's standard that we are having this discussion.

So what I was saying is for the important position of LT, it is important to have someone who your team is comfortable with...very very important. If Hills or Scott was as good, i would have evaluated the situation differently. I don't think so but I am definitely hoping I am wrong...trust me.

So let's remove the focus off of me and special secret plots, tricks, spins etc. and refocus back on the topic. That's what I'm interested in discussing. Are you saying you are comfortable with Scott or Hills taking over? You never answered my question directly but indirectly it sounds like you chose to lose Starks first (since you said poll people agree with you). I actually give you credit for being the only of the Starks out supporters to try to explain (except the one who said he did it because he was already out). I am assuming you are standing by your position.

SteelKnight
11-11-2010, 04:57 PM
TH - losing Ike Taylor would IMO be a devastating loss equal to losing Woodley on the D side and worse than losing Starks

If the poll was really biased we could do a "which player or assistant coach would you lose for 2010" poll - guess who wins that poll in a landslide?

lol. I am starting to join you guys. I really don't like Arians second down calls at all. I like him on 1st and 3rd downs. His second down calls leave me scratching my head and puts us in too many difficult third downs.

I actually tried to be fair. The only special exception I made was by adding Heath Miller...which was my choice for who we could lose first. I would likely have Smith, Taylor, Hampton, McFadden and Clark above him. Clearly Pouncey is one of my top (as I explained...I forgot to include him). I just put Miller high because I knew the board felt strongly about him being so crucial.

To be fair about Miller (and I don't want to turn this into a Miller only thread), as far as our 22 starters for this season, I have him ahead of 4 players: Kemo, Essex, Keisel, and whoever the final offensive weapon is (whether Randel El or Redman-depending on formation). The other 17 players (including Flozelle...like his play) I have as more valuable. That's my opinion.

SteelKnight
11-12-2010, 11:51 PM
I'll re-bump this thread after Sunday's game to see if people are still feeling the same way. None of the 2/3rd who voted Starks are feeling bold enough to say Scott will be good enough except zu. I certainly hope he is.