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View Full Version : Big Ben & Ball Security


DoubleYoi
10-25-2010, 01:26 PM
After three fumbles yesterday, there are many rumblings that Ben needs to tuck the ball and quit trying to make impossible plays that ultimately hurt the team. I'm a proponent of Ben fighting to make a play until the whistle blows....especially since that whistle sounds much later for him than it does for other QBs wo are "in the grasp." The refs aren't as quick to kill a play that Ben is involved in as they are for an immobile, fragile QB like, say, Kerry Collins. This gives Ben a chance to make a play when defenders have all but given up hinking the play will be blown dead.

Some of the loudest cheers come when Ben makes a late shuffle pass to convert a 3rd-down at the most improbable time. On the other hand, some of the harshest criticism comes when he fumbles the ball while trying to do the same exact thing. We can't have it both ways. His greatest asset is the ability to keep a play alive whether it be scrambling from a smothering blitz or barely getting the ball out of his hands while being sacked. He's not mentally wired to give up on a play and we shouldn't expect him to do so, unless it starts to consistenly hinder the team, which it has not yet done. To me, the positives still greatly outweigh the negatives and Ben shouldn't be stifled as far as his play-making skills are concerned. Thoughts?

jaygorius
10-25-2010, 01:31 PM
I agree. As the saying goes- live by the sword, die by the sword. Ben does good on those plays more often then bad. It is when the good start to outweigh the bad that you have to start to worry (like Brett Favre lately). Speaking of Favre, I think he and Ben play similar- you are going to get some boneheaded plays, but there are many spectacular plays made out of nothing.

Lady Steel
10-25-2010, 01:46 PM
No QB likes to take a sack, but jeez, when a defender has you in his grasp and your arms pinned against your body, don't try and throw the ball. That's just stupid.

DoubleYoi
10-25-2010, 01:47 PM
It kills me to hear bonehead announcers criticize Ben on these types of plays. Dan Dierdorf made multiple comments yesterday that made me want to reach through the TV and smack the ugly off his face.

The Favre comparison isn't unfounded though. They both have the mental and physical makeup to make a play out of nothing after going through their initial progressions. Favre did it way more often in his prime than he does now but that's to be expected.

DoubleYoi
10-25-2010, 02:00 PM
No QB likes to take a sack, but jeez, when a defender has you in his grasp and your arms pinned against your body, don't try and throw the ball. That's just stupid.

But how many times have we seen him make a seemingly "stupid" play but have it work to perfection? It makes us all nervous when he starts frantically looking for a RB to dish to when there are 4 DL and LBs converging on him. And I don't think he does these things just because he doesn't like taking a sack. Historically, these plays have turned out very well for him and the team so why not continue trying to make those types of plays? Until it directly loses us a game or four, I say let him go.

Lady Steel
10-25-2010, 02:04 PM
I hear what you're saying, Double Yoi. Really, I do. But you have to admit that Ben was totally all tied up with absolutely NO chance of making any type of play yesterday with two of those plays. The defender had Ben's wrists restrained with his hands and Ben's arms pinned against Ben's body.

I'm all for Ben making the big plays when at all possible. It makes for an exciting game, and I love it. But it's my opinion that Ben made an error in judgment not only once, but twice, yesterday.

DoubleYoi
10-25-2010, 02:21 PM
I hear what you're saying, Double Yoi. Really, I do. But you have to admit that Ben was totally all tied up with absolutely NO chance of making any type of play yesterday with two of those plays. The defender had Ben's wrists restrained with his hands and Ben's arms pinned against Ben's body.

I'm all for Ben making the big plays when at all possible. It makes for an exciting game, and I love it. But it's my opinion that Ben made an error in judgment not only once, but twice, yesterday.


A lot of the plays he makes are ill-advised and I'm sure Cowher/Tomlin would be the first to say so. It's easy for us to sit on our couches and say "he should've went down" or "just tuck the ball and live to play another down" but that's not how his mind works. I feel it's unfair to expect him to know when he should and shouldn't try to force a play, especially when he doesn't have the luxury of slow motion or instant replay. Hindsight is 20/20. Does Ben try to make a play while being sacked if he thinks the only outcome is a negative one? Absolutely not. The way his eyes lit up while he was trying to flip the ball yesterday makes me think he thought there was a decent chance of getting rid of the ball. If Tomlin tells him to tuck the ball after that play, how many in the future will be tucked instead of converting a negative into a positive? I'm not trying to change your mind about his decision-making. I guess my point is that I'm perfectly content with him making ill-advised plays until they consistently start to hurt our team.

steelcity1974
10-25-2010, 02:33 PM
We absolutely CAN have it both ways. Love it when it works...hate it when it doesn't. It's a sport, not an assembly line where things go exactly the same over and over.

Lady Steel
10-25-2010, 02:52 PM
I feel it's unfair to expect him to know when he should and shouldn't try to force a play.

I respectively disagree. He's getting paid $102 million to know these things.

Fire Arians
10-25-2010, 02:59 PM
all i have to say is that if the dolphins converted one of those first 2 turnovers into touchdowns we probably lose the game. we have to be more careful with the ball. i dont fault him on the last fumble though, that was more a good hit than being careless.

ZoneBlitzer
10-25-2010, 03:11 PM
I disagree. It's one thing to make a throw when someone is in your face or tugging at your leg but its quite another when you are in the midst of a bear hug with your arms pinned to your sides.

Having said that, I think it is impossible to change Ben on this. He just doesn't care and will never grasp this part of the game. We will have to live at least one turnover per game because of the way he plays the game.

stb_steeler
10-25-2010, 03:19 PM
Hope he watch's the film on how bad that looked. I cant believe he tried to pass that ball off.

Steeler4life1972
10-25-2010, 03:22 PM
Well my take on it is dont change what Ben has done over the years. More times than not he makes a big play running around thats why we get so disappointed when he does fumble it way cause we usually see him do good in those situations. But with all that said he does need to just take a sack and live for another play but its Ben...he's always played that way and a matter of factly I wouldnt have it any another way...just my opinion.:tt02:

#1LambertFan
10-25-2010, 03:34 PM
No QB likes to take a sack, but jeez, when a defender has you in his grasp and your arms pinned against your body, don't try and throw the ball. That's just stupid.

Ahh well "forward motion" is one of the biggest mysteries in the NFL these days. Both of the first two fumbles could have been considered forward motion. The second was better considered a fumble though because Pouncy was an ineligible receiver. Ahh but whatever, I would gladly see Ben fumble trying to make a play than just willingly take an easy sack when it's all said and done, even though I tend to get angrier when it first happens.

DoubleYoi
10-26-2010, 06:10 AM
Ahh well "forward motion" is one of the biggest mysteries in the NFL these days. Both of the first two fumbles could have been considered forward motion. The second was better considered a fumble though because Pouncy was an ineligible receiver. Ahh but whatever, I would gladly see Ben fumble trying to make a play than just willingly take an easy sack when it's all said and done, even though I tend to get angrier when it first happens.

This is exactly my point. If Ben gets it in his head that taking a sack is better than taking a risk, we lose a whole lot of what he brings to the table. He's not one of the best QBs in the league because he's a pure pocket passer.

zulater
10-26-2010, 09:48 AM
We absolutely CAN have it both ways. Love it when it works...hate it when it doesn't. It's a sport, not an assembly line where things go exactly the same over and over.

Yep, pretty much my thoughts too. I can't count how many times during the course of Ben's career I'm thinking, no Ben no, just go down, throw the ball away, and then zip, somehow he gets the ball out and what looked like a sack or an incompletion turns into a huge 20 yard gain and first down or TD. You got to let Ben be Ben and take the bad with the good. And with Ben the good nearly always outweighs the bad, and usually by a significant margin. .

HAWK
10-26-2010, 10:34 AM
There were several plays--even Sunday--that resulted in first downs and even bigger plays due to Ben not wanting to give up. Of course, there was several plays where he checked down to thew RB too.

jjpro11
10-26-2010, 11:09 AM
you live by the sword, you die by the sword. those fumbles and some horrible passes are inevitable with his style of play. if you take that style away from him, you don't get the highlight reel throws like the 50 yard completion out of his own end zone vs the Browns. that's a play where any other QB would have thrown it away or taken a sack.

HAWK
10-26-2010, 11:19 AM
I think it's safe to say we've won more games than lost because of BB's "poor choices."

zulater
10-26-2010, 01:58 PM
When you marry the super model sometimes you have to put up with runny eggs.

Steeler4life1972
10-27-2010, 07:32 PM
Ben's style of play is like no other in the league...I will say his improvisational(if thats the correct word) skills are like no other ive seen in a long time....guess what...that cant be taught.:tt03: