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View Full Version : Being Honest About Ben's Fumble (Vote)


SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 04:15 PM
OK...if you voice your opinion, you may be considered a traitor or get attacked so now you can vote honestly and annonymously on the Ben play.

Feel free to comment.

SteelCityMom
10-25-2010, 04:18 PM
People have already been commenting honestly on it...and if anyone got attacked I missed it lol.

A vote is fine though I guess.

Fire Arians
10-25-2010, 04:20 PM
first person to jump on the ball doesn't always equal he has possession

stb_steeler
10-25-2010, 04:22 PM
How could some one be a traitor for voicing their opinion?.:noidea:

SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 04:23 PM
OK. I'm going to vote Miami but I'll take it with a little guilt. lol

I think most of us know if the same thing had happened to Miami we'd be upset.

I do believe the refs tried to follow the rule but it feels wrong. I guess he was looking for DEFINATIVE proof but it looked like they jumped on the ball first from one angle.

There was still more than 2 minutes left so I still had faith.

This will all blow over and I'll take the win. OK...now back to pretending it was an obvious call we should have won...:)

Atlanta Dan
10-25-2010, 04:28 PM
You can never have incontrovertible video evidence of a fumble recovery in a scrum when the ball is in the pile - it is a hole in the replay rule that i assume will be fixed by refs now needing to verify who has the ball anytime it comes loose after the player allegedly scores

Life's unfair - if the Steelers lost the game that way I would be p***ed off but wonder why my team did not make sure it clearly had the ball after it came loose - Steelers were fortunate they allegedly had a WTF attitude about recovering the ball once the TD signal was given and were not burned

Lesson hopefully learned for Roethlisberger that improvd ball control when he is wrapped up is on the to do list

lionslicer
10-25-2010, 04:32 PM
It will forever be unknown who would have had the ball in the endzone. I still think no matter what happened the Steelers would have won the game

SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 04:32 PM
People have already been commenting honestly on it...and if anyone got attacked I missed it lol.

A vote is fine though I guess.

Oh...OK. Honestly I hadn't read all the threads but I did look to see if there was a poll. I wanted people to feel free to express what they thought without being ganged up on. lol If that was happening, my bad...lol

first person to jump on the ball doesn't always equal he has possession

Yeah but then they also up with the ball...lol Let's admit it, we got away with one. lol I was wondering whether Tomlin was going to be able to run to shake Sparanos hand. lol
What would he say...maybe "Tough Battle." IDK

The rule was designed but if we are going to say first person doesn't equal possession then it will never happen with a loose ball pile up.

One thing that I think is a little unfair is that when they blew the whistle and raised their hands TD, it slowed the Steelers down a second and that is enough time to give Miami an advantage.

stb_steeler
10-25-2010, 04:32 PM
Ben said in the post game interview, he had the ball in the scrum anyway but gave it up due to the fact it was initially called a TD, so there was no reason to hold on to it. As the rule states when the whistle is blown the play is dead.

SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 04:35 PM
You can never have incontrovertible video evidence of a fumble recovery in a scrum when the ball is in the pile - it is a hole in the replay rule that i assume will be fixed by refs now needing to verify who has the ball anytime it comes loose after the player allegedly scores

Life's unfair - if the Steelers lost the game that way I would be p***ed off but wonder why my team did not make sure it clearly had the ball after it came loose - Steelers were fortunate they allegedly had a WTF attitude about recovering the ball once the TD signal was given and were not burned

Lesson hopefully learned for Roethlisberger that improvd ball control when he is wrapped up is on the to do list

Good post. I agree. Well said.

SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 04:38 PM
Ben said in the post game interview, he had the ball in the scrum anyway but gave it up due to the fact it was initially called a TD, so there was no reason to hold on to it. As the rule states when the whistle is blown the play is dead.

Wow...did he say that? When we looked at the replay it looked like e was looking to his right for the ball that was actually right in front of him. It then looked like a Miami player jumped on the ball. Maybe he wrestled it out from that player or the ball bounced away from that player. I have to watch it again. I'm sure it will be the "ref review" case on NFL network this week.

steelax04
10-25-2010, 04:42 PM
I thought the way Legursky parted the Red Sea when he dove in there, he had to end up having a great shot at possession.

stb_steeler
10-25-2010, 04:44 PM
I thought the way Legursky parted the Red Sea when he dove in there, he had to end up having a great shot at possession.

Thats what Ben stated that him and Legursky had their mitts on it together, but they gave it up.

lionslicer
10-25-2010, 04:44 PM
Wow...did he say that? When we looked at the replay it looked like e was looking to his right for the ball that was actually right in front of him. It then looked like a Miami player jumped on the ball. Maybe he wrestled it out from that player or the ball bounced away from that player. I have to watch it again. I'm sure it will be the "ref review" case on NFL network this week.

When the ball first came out, it looked like Ben was clueless for a bit lol, but he jumped in there and actually was at the very bottom of the pile and until the ref says "touchdown" he remains there. He gets up almost immediately once he hears touchdown, but he clearly looks like he had the ball.

#1LambertFan
10-25-2010, 04:45 PM
I say two Miami defenders, each with one hand stretched out touching it and then I saw Legursky hop on top of the ball. I dont have a good enough angle to tell what happened after that but the way I see it was it was ruled a TD with no fumble and the play was blown dead as soon as it was ruled a TD.

SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 04:45 PM
I thought the way Legursky parted the Red Sea when he dove in there, he had to end up having a great shot at possession.

I'll have to watch it again. Maybe the one they showed on TV was biased in favor of Miami.

cloppbeast
10-25-2010, 04:45 PM
Let me say first: that the whole play worked out extremely unfortunate for the 'Phins. Ben fumbled, and in all likelihood Miami recovered it. It should have been their ball. If it were backyard football, you'd have to give the ball to Miami.

But it's the NFL and we're dealing with a set of rules.

During the review they made the right call by the letter of the law. Frankly I'm getting tired of people complaining about it. These complaints come from sheer ignorance about the NFL rulebook.

It doesn't matter that the Dolphins picked up the ball after it was fumbled because it was ruled a touchdown on the field. Once TD is signaled, the play is dead; the ref has to ascertain at that moment if it were clear the defense would recover. It wasn't clear, therefore you have to give the ball back to the offense. The whole thing worked out for the Steelers and they got lucky, but the head official made the right call under the booth.

SteelCityMom
10-25-2010, 04:48 PM
Oh...OK. Honestly I hadn't read all the threads but I did look to see if there was a poll. I wanted people to feel free to express what they thought without being ganged up on. lol If that was happening, my bad...lol

No apologies necessary. A poll is a good thing on this matter. I have a feeling most people think that the Steelers were very lucky though to come out on the winning end of that call though lol.

stb_steeler
10-25-2010, 04:48 PM
Wow...did he say that? When we looked at the replay it looked like e was looking to his right for the ball that was actually right in front of him. It then looked like a Miami player jumped on the ball. Maybe he wrestled it out from that player or the ball bounced away from that player. I have to watch it again. I'm sure it will be the "ref review" case on NFL network this week.

Yeah Ben didnt see where it was at first, but by the time we saw the scrum the camera's were focused on something else. They showed Ben's Post game interview at the beginning of SNF.

lionslicer
10-25-2010, 04:54 PM
I say two Miami defenders, each with one hand stretched out touching it and then I saw Legursky hop on top of the ball. I dont have a good enough angle to tell what happened after that but the way I see it was it was ruled a TD with no fumble and the play was blown dead as soon as it was ruled a TD.

One of the 2 Dolphins that fell on it came out with it at the end. But again Legursky and Ben both got out of the pile at that point.

ricardisimo
10-25-2010, 04:56 PM
What does possession on that play have to do with "being honest about Ben"? :huh:

SteelCityMom
10-25-2010, 04:57 PM
Let me say first: that the whole play worked out extremely unfortunate for the 'Phins. Ben fumbled, and in all likelihood Miami recovered it. It should have been their ball. If it were backyard football, you'd have to give the ball to Miami.

But it's the NFL and we're dealing with a set of rules.

During the review they made the right call by the letter of the law. Frankly I'm getting tired of people complaining about it. These complaints come from sheer ignorance about the NFL rulebook.

It doesn't matter that the Dolphins picked up the ball after it was fumbled because it was ruled a touchdown on the field. Once TD is signaled, the play is dead; the ref has to ascertain at that moment if it were clear the defense would recover. It wasn't clear, therefore you have to give the ball back to the offense. The whole thing worked out for the Steelers and they got lucky, but the head official made the right call under the booth.

I'm with you on this.

Do I think that maybe the Steelers got lucky on that one? Yes, absolutely. But looking at it purely objectively the refs made the right call about who had possession. Doesn't matter who looked like they were going for it, doesn't matter who stood up with it after the refs are shouting "it's a touchdown, plays over", it would matter who had the ball at the bottom of the pile...which is literally impossible to do.

Now, I think the ref blew the whistle way to early, and called a TD when it shouldn't have been. In that respect I think Miami got hosed, but it is what it is, and because of the ref calling TD that means it doesn't matter who stood up with the ball in their hand.

SteelCityMom
10-25-2010, 04:58 PM
What does possession on that play have to do with "being honest about Ben"? :huh:

I changed the title just for you (ok, and for others too) pookie bear. :chuckle:

pete74
10-25-2010, 05:08 PM
i dont know how anyone can say that pittsburgh should have the ball after that. you can clearly see the Miami player jump on the ball but more importantly a Miami player habded the ball to the ref after the play. it was clearly a fumble and the man who comes up with the fumble gets the ball.

with that said im glad the ref was born in pittsburgh and made that stupied call because we may of lost if it wasnt for that

ricardisimo
10-25-2010, 05:19 PM
Now, I think the ref blew the whistle way to early, and called a TD when it shouldn't have been. In that respect I think Miami got hosed, but it is what it is, and because of the ref calling TD that means it doesn't matter who stood up with the ball in their hand.
Absolutely. That ref looked over-eager to call TD, from what I could tell. Maybe he had to go use the restroom or something.

Atlanta Dan
10-25-2010, 05:25 PM
Absolutely. That ref looked over-eager to call TD, from what I could tell. Maybe he had to go use the restroom or something.

Ref was just excited about a TD covering the 3 points he had to give for taking the Steelers:chuckle:

SteelCityMom
10-25-2010, 06:27 PM
Here's Periera's take on it...

2. Pittsburgh at Miami

THE SITUATION: Pittsburgh had the ball, third-and-goal from the Miami 2-yard line with 2:30 left in the fourth quarter, trailing the Dolphins, 22-20.

THE PLAY: Pittsburgh quarterback Ben Roethlisberger carried the ball two yards and fumbled as he crossed the goal line. It was ruled a touchdown on the field, but the call was challenged by Miami. The play was reversed, however, because during the review, the officials were unable to determine who recovered the ball in the end zone before the players ended up in a scrum. The play, therefore, was ruled dead at the Miami one-yard line, making fourth-and-goal. Pittsburgh kicked a field goal to take a 23-22 lead.

MY TAKE: This was a very unusual play. The ruling differs in the field of play if the ruling was down by contact vs. a play in the end zone, when the ruling is a touchdown. In the field of play, had this play happened, Miami would have lost the challenge since there wasn't indisputable visual evidence to determine who recovered the ball. The down by contact ruling would have stood in that case.

In this case, the officials ruled touchdown and since the ball was loose before it broke the plane, the touchdown ruling was reversed and the ball is returned to the spot of the fumble. Since the ruling changed from a touchdown to the ball being returned to the spot of the fumble, an aspect of the play was changed and therefore, Miami won the challenge.

An interesting footnote: With just over a minute to play on Miami's next possession, on fourth-and-6 from its 33, Dolphins quarterback Chad Henne threw a pass that was ruled on the field as an interception by Pittsburgh's James Harrison. Well, it wasn't an interception, as the ball clearly hit the ground. But it wasn't an incomplete pass, either.

It was actually a fumble, and the fumble was recovered by Harrison. It wasn't reviewed and probably should have been. Regardless, no matter what the ruling ended up, the result of the play would have been the same. I can't say I've ever seen that before. No matter whether it was an incompletion, an interception or a fumble, Pittsburgh would have gotten the ball at the same spot.

http://msn.foxsports.com/nfl/story/Jay-Cutler-fumble-goal-line-Ben-Roethlisberger-Steelers-Dolphins-102410

ricardisimo
10-25-2010, 06:54 PM
It was actually a fumble, and the fumble was recovered by Harrison. It wasn't reviewed and probably should have been. Regardless, no matter what the ruling ended up, the result of the play would have been the same. I can't say I've ever seen that before. No matter whether it was an incompletion, an interception or a fumble, Pittsburgh would have gotten the ball at the same spot.
Interesting. I think the officiating crew just wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible, before someone called the Cubans.

zulater
10-25-2010, 07:19 PM
How about this, if Miami had won they would be lucky. You take a 2 point lead and then allow a team to drive down to your 2 yard line on the next series and you're dependent on an inexplicable fumble to preserve your lead, and you think you've done something to be proud of?

lionslicer
10-25-2010, 07:28 PM
Interesting. I think the officiating crew just wanted to get out of there as quickly as possible, before someone called the Cubans.

Why would they review that play? It would have just changed the spot where the Steeler took the ball from, which they would knee on it anyways.

I guess people are mad the Refs allowed Harrison to get a stat pad. He looked like he argued at the ref for a second to say it was an interception, then walked off with the ball. First interception since the superbowl.

lionslicer
10-25-2010, 07:29 PM
How about this, if Miami had won they would be lucky. You take a 2 point lead and then allow a team to drive down to your 2 yard line on the next series and you're dependent on an inexplicable fumble to preserve your lead, and you think you've done something to be proud of?

They wouldn't have won, because the Steelers would have stopped them anyways, got the ball back and kicked a field goal. Dolphins can argue whatever they want. No matter the outcome, the Steelers would have won in my eyes.

zulater
10-25-2010, 07:36 PM
They wouldn't have won, because the Steelers would have stopped them anyways, got the ball back and kicked a field goal. Dolphins can argue whatever they want. No matter the outcome, the Steelers would have won in my eyes.



Oh I agree, you're preaching to the choir here. :smoker:

steelax04
10-25-2010, 08:32 PM
Oh I agree, you're preaching to the choir here. :smoker:

However, it wouldn't have given all the conspiracy theorists more ammunition to say that the NFL is rigged completely in the Steelers' favor..... :coffee:

fer522
10-25-2010, 08:42 PM
the called on the field was a TD so whatever happened after the fact is irrelevant, and replay is not design to go back and decide what happened its design to confirm or overrule the calls on the field and the called on the field was a TD :tt03:

SteelKnight
10-25-2010, 10:47 PM
Now, I think the ref blew the whistle way to early, and called a TD when it shouldn't have been. In that respect I think Miami got hosed, but it is what it is, and because of the ref calling TD that means it doesn't matter who stood up with the ball in their hand.

Yeah. They are going to have to work this out in the off season. It is a flaw in the rule.

If you are going to be able to reverse touchdowns, once a ball comes out, the teams should be coached to go after the ball no matter what. The whistle should not blow until after the person with possession willingly gives up the ball. And in a case where a player does not willingly give up the ball, the refs should g through the pile like normal to see who has it.

Maybe they should say if the person who scored does not come up with the ball it is an automatic review ...that way the refs would be motivated to continue figuring out who has the ball.

I feel more comfortable with the excuse of saying the Steelers didn't have the ball because the refs ended the play and blew the whistle (if they blew it). I assume they blow it at the same time they are raising their hands.

I know Tomlin did not say "good game" to Sparano. lol

SteelKnight
10-26-2010, 07:38 AM
I feel better now. I didn't realize the rule book expressly discusses pile ups. It wasn't like they hadn't thought of it and the refs had to ad lib it. It was directly from the rule book. We won fair and square.

"There must be a clear recovery by the defense in order to reverse to a touchback," the league's Instant Replay Manual says. "If there is a pileup and you can't see who recovered the ball, or a long delay with players stopping before the ball is recovered, the offense retains possession."

DoctorCAD
10-26-2010, 08:05 AM
the called on the field was a TD so whatever happened after the fact is irrelevant, and replay is not design to go back and decide what happened its design to confirm or overrule the calls on the field and the called on the field was a TD :tt03:

+1

And why can't the press see this side of the argument. The play was called a TD, anything after that DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!

ZoneBlitzer
10-26-2010, 10:50 AM
Apparently it's a rule in the NFL rulebook. In such situations the ball remains with the offensive team. I saw it on the Coaches Show on the NFL network.

SteelCityMom
10-26-2010, 11:05 AM
Pffft...apparently you guys have gotten the expert opinion of the thousands of posters on youtube and Miami Dolphin forums.

#59 stood up with the ball...case closed dumbasses. :chuckle:

HAWK
10-26-2010, 11:30 AM
I was as surprised as everyone else. I didn't see how they were going to win that one after BR's fumble. That said, there are bad calls every week, and as a fan you seem to have less of a problem with it when your team benefits. Otherwise, I thought it was a crappy call...despite the fact that I understood why they ruled as they did. No proof=no call. I do think that if they hadn't called the TD that it would have been the opposite outcome after review. It always comes down to overturning the call the ref made on the field.

Personally, I hate games like that. One could argue that if both teams had played better early on the call wouldn't have mattered. If you as a team let it come down to the last second then don't cry about the outcome. Of course, in reality, that's not always possible. But I digress.. Like I said I hate games like that. As a fan you want bragging rights free from the ref's influence.

I understand the call..and it was probably the right one. But it's easier to accept when your team benefits.

DoubleYoi
10-26-2010, 01:21 PM
+1

And why can't the press see this side of the argument. The play was called a TD, anything after that DOESN'T MATTER!!!!!!

Because that's not the case anymore. Had the fumble bounced directly into the hands of a Miami defender, the Dolphins would've been rewarded possession of the ball at their 20 yard line. The fact that the play was initially ruled a TD does not mean anything and everything after that point is moot. We just lucked out in a sense that there was no clear-cut recovery of the fumble.

pancake
10-26-2010, 02:45 PM
I think we got a little lucky, but you need those through a course of a season.

SteelKnight
10-26-2010, 04:08 PM
Now that I saw how the Ravens beat Buffalo after stripping the ball while the guy was standing up making mo progress for 10 seconds, I think we'll take it.

They basically held him up and wouldn't let him fall. I guess you can bend your legs and hope your knee hits...but they wouldn't let him fall forward.

stb_steeler
10-26-2010, 04:16 PM
Now that I saw how the Ravens beat Buffalo after stripping the ball while the guy was standing up making mo progress for 10 seconds, I think we'll take it.

They basically held him up and wouldn't let him fall. I guess you can bend your legs and hope your knee hits...but they wouldn't let him fall forward.

I was wondering the same thing....where was the whistle on that play!

LVSteelersfan
10-26-2010, 05:27 PM
Were some of you watching the same game I was? The Miami players jumped on the ball but it bounced back toward the goal line and Legursky and Ben. The initial Dolphins players fought for it but never controlled it. Then the referees were all over the place blowing whistles saying the play was over. The TD call was totally wrong but there was nothing else they could do after watching the replay no matter who had the ball. You can't keep telling players the play is dead and then turn around a couple minutes later and say the play wasn't dead. It just doesn't work that way.

StainlessStill
10-26-2010, 06:40 PM
Givin the set of rules after the fact, there was NOTHING that the refs could have called otherwise. IF it were to happen to MIA, the same call would have been executed.

The problem was that the refs didn't even recognize the scuffle and blew it off due to the fact that the ruling on the field was confirmed to be a touchdown. No ref signed white OR black ball and the refs didn't even look into the pile at any time so there was no rule to determine who came up with a clear recovery.

23-22, Steelers. It'll still read that. 5-1. I'll take it!