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View Full Version : Pgh beats N.O. with superior D?


thumper
10-27-2010, 02:04 PM
That sounds good, but N.O. is the one with the higher
rated D in this game. That's right. NO is rated 3rd in D,
Pgh is rated 4th. I know, I know, I know - I'm gonna hear
that the ratings don't tell the whole story, etc. etc. But my
point is: Don't come in with the assumption that our D
will be the determining factor to winning the game; their
D is just as good.

DoubleYoi
10-27-2010, 02:33 PM
Overall Defense is one of the most deceiving stats out there. It's based on yardage allowed per game which means next to nothing. A team can give up 500 yards a game which means squat if they keep the opponent off the scoreboard. Here's a few stats the Steelers own over the Saints that paints a different story:

Sacks: Pit 18, N.O. 12
Int: Pit 8, N.O. 4
Fumbles Forced: Tie at 11
Fumbles Recovered: Pit 8; N.O. 5
Rush Yds: Pit 63.7, N.O. 108.7
Points Per Game: Pit 13.7, N.O. 19.7

Don't let the "Overall Defense" rankings fool you.

theplatypus
10-27-2010, 02:43 PM
There's nothing like a little clarity.

Fire Arians
10-27-2010, 02:50 PM
points allowed > yards allowed because in the end, the numbers on the scoreboard is the only thing that matters

thumper
10-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Overall Defense is one of the most deceiving stats out there. It's based on yardage allowed per game which means next to nothing. A team can give up 500 yards a game which means squat if they keep the opponent off the scoreboard. Here's a few stats the Steelers own over the Saints that paints a different story:

Sacks: Pit 18, N.O. 12
Int: Pit 8, N.O. 4
Fumbles Forced: Tie at 11
Fumbles Recovered: Pit 8; N.O. 5
Rush Yds: Pit 63.7, N.O. 108.7
Points Per Game: Pit 13.7, N.O. 19.7

Don't let the "Overall Defense" rankings fool you.

Ummm, D rated by yards allowed is not the end all analysis in
evaluating Ds, but it's also not totally irrelevant either. If it were, then
why is it that Ds who rank high in yardage allowed are also ranked
high across the board? You will never see the #1 defense in points
allowed will never be 30th in yardage allowed. Why? Because both
are indicators of the quality of a D. Thusly, this Saints D that is
rated 3rd, must be a decent D, period.

And your hand picked stats are interesting, but there was cherry picking
involved. For instance, how about passing D?

NO - 3rd
Pgh - 24th

Don't tell me that isn't crazy significant. Because it is. NO is hard to
pass on. Pgh? Not so much. 24th is crap. For some reason Dickie L
loves keeping CBs way off the WR and keep the middle wide open.
Pgh is giving up 236 yards in the air per game. The Saints are going
to pass all over this D. Hope I'm wrong.

thumper
10-27-2010, 03:16 PM
points allowed > yards allowed because in the end, the numbers on the scoreboard is the only thing that matters

True. But a team giving up gobs of yards probably gives up points too.

DoubleYoi
10-27-2010, 03:28 PM
Ummm, D rated by yards allowed is not the end all analysis in
evaluating Ds, but it's also not totally irrelevant either. If it were, then
why is it that Ds who rank high in yardage allowed are also ranked
high across the board? You will never see the #1 defense in points
allowed will never be 30th in yardage allowed. Why? Because both
are indicators of the quality of a D. Thusly, this Saints D that is
rated 3rd, must be a decent D, period.

And your hand picked stats are interesting, but there was cherry picking
involved. For instance, how about passing D?

NO - 3rd
Pgh - 24th

Don't tell me that isn't crazy significant. Because it is. NO is hard to
pass on. Pgh? Not so much. 24th is crap. For some reason Dickie L
loves keeping CBs way off the WR and keep the middle wide open.
Pgh is giving up 236 yards in the air per game. The Saints are going
to pass all over this D. Hope I'm wrong.

I'm not completely discrediting the Saints D but to tell me they're "ranked" higher than the Steelers D is a joke. I'd love to take a poll of NFL analysts and find out which defensive unit they'd rather have, the Saints or Steelers. Steelers would win in a landslide. Why? Because they're highly superior regardless of whatever system the NFL uses to rank "overall defense."

As for the passing D, do you honestly feel the Steelers are giving up 236 yards on average because they're incapable of stopping the pass? Huge chunks of those yards came while the Steelers were in the prevent defense against teams like Tennessee, Tampa Bay, Baltimore, Cleveland....etc. Don't put too much stock in yardage allowed because often times, it's very situational. LeBeau would much rather give up the quick sideline routes and medium-length plays over the middle as opposed to getting beat deep. It's worked almost to perfection to this point so why change? Should they change for the sake of improving their overall defensive rating? I think not. After all, the Steelers are 5-1 while the Saints are 4-3 with their respective defensive units. Those are the most telling stats of all.

CargoJon
10-27-2010, 03:39 PM
I don't think there's a sane person who would take the Saints D over the Pittsburgh D right now.

Granted, the Saints D has been more impacted by injuries than the Steelers....but the Saints defense is built to play with a lead. Their offense hasn't been giving them many leads lately.

steelcity1974
10-27-2010, 03:57 PM
Here is what I think of those rankings, San Diego Chargers - 1 in total offense, 1 in total defense. 2-5 record. :noidea:

SteelCityMom
10-27-2010, 04:02 PM
Here is what I think of those rankings, San Diego Chargers - 1 in total offense, 1 in total defense. 2-5 record. :noidea:

Exactly. Overall ratings are pretty much bullshit. They're nice to flaunt and all, but if you don't have the win record to back them up, they are totally useless.

thumper
10-27-2010, 05:20 PM
Exactly. Overall ratings are pretty much bullshit. They're nice to flaunt and all, but if you don't have the win record to back them up, they are totally useless.

Funny. Because when Pgh's D is ranked #1 Steeler fans taunt that
all day long. Now when we aren't #1 the ranking is complete rubbish.
Just sayin'.

StainlessStill
10-27-2010, 05:45 PM
That sounds good, but N.O. is the one with the higher
rated D in this game. That's right. NO is rated 3rd in D,
Pgh is rated 4th. I know, I know, I know - I'm gonna hear
that the ratings don't tell the whole story, etc. etc. But my
point is: Don't come in with the assumption that our D
will be the determining factor to winning the game; their
D is just as good.

The Steelers have tapered off the past few games with how nasty we played. We barely got to the QB the past 3 games and QB's seem to take the yardage we give them so that hurts our overall stand.

But lets get real, the Steelers are BY FAR the best defense in the league at what we dial up and what we do as a whole. Other than a sluggish Baltimore team, a Titans team OR a Jets team, we are the most vicious with personal.

The thing that is hurting the Saints this year in the W-L record is takeaways defensivley. They are STILL a good football team, without question, but they are hurting in the takeaway category, esp when comparing last years numbers and that's where I think we take the cake. We are actually holding onto the football in INTS. Amazing.

DoubleYoi
10-27-2010, 08:52 PM
Funny. Because when Pgh's D is ranked #1 Steeler fans taunt that
all day long. Now when we aren't #1 the ranking is complete rubbish.
Just sayin'.

Not necessarily true. When the Steelers are "ranked" #1 defensively, there are usually some ridiculous stats to go with it. For example, the Steelers recently have gone an ungodly amount of games without letting up a rushing TD. They also usually have the best rush defense, or at least it seems to be the case ever since Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton have anchored the D-Line. It's okay to be proud of a defense "ranked" #1 but it doesn't necessarily mean you have the best defensive unit in the game.

Claiming the Saints have a defense that's "just as good" as the Steelers is poppy****.

thumper
10-28-2010, 02:24 PM
Not necessarily true. When the Steelers are "ranked" #1 defensively, there are usually some ridiculous stats to go with it. For example, the Steelers recently have gone an ungodly amount of games without letting up a rushing TD. They also usually have the best rush defense, or at least it seems to be the case ever since Aaron Smith and Casey Hampton have anchored the D-Line. It's okay to be proud of a defense "ranked" #1 but it doesn't necessarily mean you have the best defensive unit in the game.

Claiming the Saints have a defense that's "just as good" as the Steelers is poppy****.

Never claimed that. I merely stated FACTS: N.O. D is rated higher than Pgh. That is a FACT. And their pass D is 3rd and Pgh's is 24th. Another FACT.

SteelCityMom
10-28-2010, 02:43 PM
Funny. Because when Pgh's D is ranked #1 Steeler fans taunt that
all day long. Now when we aren't #1 the ranking is complete rubbish.
Just sayin'.

I get what you mean, but you and who I was replying to brought up overall rankings, which always needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

When the Steelers were ranked 1st overall, they had the run, pass, sack, points allowed etc. etc. to back that up. Not to mention the wins to back it up as well.

Right now, if you looked at the overall stats on NFL.com, you'd think that the Chargers were some powerhouse team that couldn't be stopped, yet they are 2-5. They are number one in overall offense and defense and number one in pass offense and defense. Apparently, those stats mean diddly squat and you have to assume that the minute stats are crap.

It wasn't that way when the Steelers defense was ranked #1 overall. They had great stats across the board on defense and that translated into the W/L column as well that year.

And about the Steelers defensive passing stats. Yeah, they are ranked low, but guess what defensive stat totally blows every other team out of the water...points allowed. That's what really matters. They are 1st with 13.7/game and 82 overall. The only team that is still under 100 points allowed. Jets are next with 101.

New Orleans gives up 19.7 pts/game and 138 overall. A lot of good their high ranked passing defense does them then.

Steelers - Despite their 24th ranked pass defense, they have only allowed 4 passing TDs to date. Their 1st ranked run defense has allowed only 2 TDs. One other team is tied for that number in passing TDs and that's the Bears. Every other team is higher.

Saints - Despite their 3rd ranked pass defense, they have allowed 6 passing TDs to date. And their 16th ranked run defense has allowed 5.

Those are the stats that matter to me.

And sorry to ramble...hope you've read all this, but another stat I found very interesting is the INT stat. Saints defense has 4 INTs, while the Steelers defense has 9.

When you break these overall rankings down a bit, you start to see the minute stats that really matter. All overall rankings do is dish out ranking numbers based on yards allowed or gained per game. They don't really delve into the deeper more important stats.

DoubleYoi
10-28-2010, 02:50 PM
Never claimed that. I merely stated FACTS: N.O. D is rated higher than Pgh. That is a FACT. And their pass D is 3rd and Pgh's is 24th. Another FACT.

It's obviously not getting through to you. And yes, you did claim that the Saints D was "just as good" as the Steelers in your original post. The Steelers 24th-ranked Pass D is a bit mis-leading as a lot of stats are. Let's leave it at that and agree to disagree.

Here's an article that hits the nail on the head regarding this topic. Interesting fact: Steelers opponents have only had 27 snaps with the lead (16 rush, 11 pass) all season long.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81baab11/article/brees-vs-steelers-certainly-not-the-mismatch-it-appears

SteelCityMom
10-28-2010, 03:08 PM
Now, lets take a look at the difference in offensive stats. If you correlate these with defensive stats (specifically the points allowed by the defense), you can come to an on paper conclusion of who has the best chance to win the game. I know games aren't won on paper, and any given Sunday and all that...but I'm just pointing out where the trends on both sides will likely take a team when the game is played.

Steelers - The defense is allowing a very low amount of points/game at 13.7. The offense (ranking wise) is getting a mediocre (14th ppg) 22.8. That means, the offense - for the most part - is going to be scoring enough points to win the game.

Saints - Their defense is allowing 19.7 ppg. Their offense (ppg ranking wise) is even more mediocre than the Steelers (18th) with 21 ppg. This means that, while the Saints will still probably be able to win games, they're statistically going to have a tougher time doing it. They have one game in hand on the Steelers, yet only have 10 more points.

skinart82
10-28-2010, 10:44 PM
Pittsburgh has the 24th Pass D because they also have the 1ts Run D. Can't run on em' so you must pass, when you spend all day pasing, your yards will eventually start to build up in that category.

Atlanta Dan
10-28-2010, 10:56 PM
Never claimed that. I merely stated FACTS: N.O. D is rated higher than Pgh. That is a FACT. And their pass D is 3rd and Pgh's is 24th. Another FACT.

FACT - San Diego has the number one statistical offense

FACT- San Diego has the number one statistical defense

FACT - San Diego is 2-5

Chargers have become the NFL's star of statistics, not standings

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/kerry_byrne/10/27/chargers.statistics/index.html

FACT - relying on total yardage as an accurate measure of the relative effectiveness of an offense or defense is not very reliable at all

DoubleYoi
10-29-2010, 09:42 AM
FACT - San Diego has the number one statistical offense

FACT- San Diego has the number one statistical defense

FACT - San Diego is 2-5

Chargers have become the NFL's star of statistics, not standings

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/kerry_byrne/10/27/chargers.statistics/index.html

FACT - relying on total yardage as an accurate measure of the relative effectiveness of an offense or defense is not very reliable at all

FACT- The Saints would be much better if they had Dwight Schrute at QB instead of Drew Brees. FACT!!

http://johngushue.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451f25369e20120a58b1835970c-800wi