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thumper
11-04-2010, 01:22 PM
First we saw www.stillers.com turn into cinders after it had established itself as an active, informative and entertaining site.

But after too many loonies became too active, and moderation got too extreme, that site, at one point, flamed out to almost no activity (I see there is a little bit back now, but not much.)

Then www.stillers-forums.com seemed to pick up a lot of action from former posters on SC, but the same fate ended up - seemingly - smashing SFC. That place got real bizarre - with mods booting quality posters while keeping the nuttiest of all posters around. And lately, it seems some of the nuts started prank calling a mod at work, like in their real life. The site operator said, due to the prank calls, he would likely be shutting down the site. And as of today, at least when I tried to view it, the site is down.

I hope this site is the "sane" site some of us have been looking for. Getting in debate, etc. can be fun. But when it turns into nothing but guttural insults, it really ruins boards. Those past two boards should be studied by a team of psychiatrists.

Lady Steel
11-04-2010, 01:40 PM
Who cares about any other board except this one? I know I don't. Seriously, dude, I don't think anybody cares, and why was this posted in the Pittsburgh Steelers forum?

thumper
11-04-2010, 02:48 PM
Who cares about any other board except this one? I know I don't. Seriously, dude, I don't think anybody cares, and why was this posted in the Pittsburgh Steelers forum?

First of all, many people, including me, have been active on other boards but not this one. I mean, you do know that, right? And being that we do post on PS boards, it does make the subject relative. I know the discussion of the status of various boards has been well-received on other boards. <shrugs shoulders> :noidea:

SteelCityMom
11-04-2010, 02:56 PM
It's all good. I thought about moving this, since it doesn't have to do with Steelers football, but the locker room would be the only place I could think of, and it would just die there. If Tony or Pete want to move it, I've got no issues.

I've never been to either board, so I have no clue how either is/or was run. Only boards I've posted at were steelers.com (which is full of great knowledgeable fans, but the forums themselves suck) and the board which shall not be named...where a good number of members were booted for not falling into line (myself included).

I hope this never becomes a board with nothing but flame-wars and insults. That shit is going to happen sometimes, but I'd like to think we're all adults and can get over it. For the most part I think it's worked out fine so far. I'm never going to be ultra restrictive on the debates though, same goes for Tony and Pete.

And I know there are times where I'm going to be a bitch (I'm sure I already have been a few times), but I don't want people to think that means they can't speak their minds.

I don't know...I'm rambling. Just have fun lol.

Fire Arians
11-04-2010, 03:16 PM
stillers.com's problem is that the forums are outdated and the current mod there doesn't want to upgrade it. it's gone down several times and took too long to get back up, so people started filing out of there. That's how I ended up here :)

I still go by there to check out mill's analysis cause it cracks me up

thumper
11-04-2010, 03:43 PM
It's all good. I thought about moving this, since it doesn't have to do with Steelers football, but the locker room would be the only place I could think of, and it would just die there. If Tony or Pete want to move it, I've got no issues.

I've never been to either board, so I have no clue how either is/or was run. Only boards I've posted at were steelers.com (which is full of great knowledgeable fans, but the forums themselves suck) and the board which shall not be named...where a good number of members were booted for not falling into line (myself included).

I hope this never becomes a board with nothing but flame-wars and insults. That shit is going to happen sometimes, but I'd like to think we're all adults and can get over it. For the most part I think it's worked out fine so far. I'm never going to be ultra restrictive on the debates though, same goes for Tony and Pete.

And I know there are times where I'm going to be a bitch (I'm sure I already have been a few times), but I don't want people to think that means they can't speak their minds.

I don't know...I'm rambling. Just have fun lol.

I have seen overly moderated sites, that are the worst. Then I have seen the true coo coo boards, where the appeal is like witnessing abnormal psychology. SFC had a mere handful of posters, with 50% seemingly nuts. But you never knew who was really as they posed vs. total fabrications. Some % were total created "characters" without question. But the place really was more about the invention of aliases more than about the PS.

I hope this place is the happy medium - not overly moderated, not overly uptight, but keeping the core discussion on all things Steelers as opposed to a loon house featuring coo coo aliases and the majority of the content being flame wars, not even on subjects related to the PS.

So far, this place seems like a good mix of quality content, good level of participation and updated technology, where there aren't glitches all the time.

Fire Arians
11-04-2010, 03:52 PM
I have seen overly moderated sites, that are the worst. Then I have seen the true coo coo boards, where the appeal is like witnessing abnormal psychology. SFC had a mere handful of posters, with 50% seemingly nuts. But you never knew who was really as they posed vs. total fabrications. Some % were total created "characters" without question. But the place really was more about the invention of aliases more than about the PS.

I hope this place is the happy medium - not overly moderated, not overly uptight, but keeping the core discussion on all things Steelers as opposed to a loon house featuring coo coo aliases and the majority of the content being flame wars, not even on subjects related to the PS.

So far, this place seems like a good mix of quality content, good level of participation and updated technology, where there aren't glitches all the time.

agree this has been my favorite board so far because it's not overly moderated, but it's not mad max style like stillers.com. overmodding (like steelers.com) really makes things not fun. they were banning people for saying dick lebeau over there, lol.

SteelCityMom
11-04-2010, 03:57 PM
Yeah, this will never get to be a totally coo coo board. That's why guys like Stupa-Fly, whatdoiknow and Downbylaw are goners. We don't mind a little crazy, but they were over the top lol.

I don't like over moderating either. And I hope it stays a happy medium too. I'm sure people are going to swear at each other and not get along from time to time, but we're not going to treat people like kids either who can't work shit out.

thumper
11-04-2010, 04:08 PM
Yeah, this will never get to be a totally coo coo board. That's why guys like Stupa-Fly, whatdoiknow and Downbylaw are goners. We don't mind a little crazy, but they were over the top lol.

I don't like over moderating either. And I hope it stays a happy medium too. I'm sure people are going to swear at each other and not get along from time to time, but we're not going to treat people like kids either who can't work shit out.

Anyone remember "Kill Cowher" and his ilk from the old Stillers.com? That was totally over the top. If he disagreed with any football content you posted (and he pretty much always would, regardless) he would immediately drop ribald, as-gross-as-can-be, "You ___ off your dad and I ___ your mom" nonsense. How people were entertained by that stuff, I have no idea. It would seem you'd have to be in about 7th grade to be humored by it.

Oh, and the other moderation I find buzz-killing is the "you can only post rose-colored (black and gold colored?) about the Steelers, no matter what, or you are banned. They are afraid to discuss any possible weakness or problem with the team, and if you do, they can't take it. I find those kind of fans to be totally lame and weak. If the team has a problem, why can't we discuss it? It's like living with your head in the sand.

No thank you.

That's more for your typical Brown fan. The majority of their boards are flooded with fans who predict that they are now the best team in the NFL, after any win or off season.

Lady Steel
11-04-2010, 04:11 PM
First of all, many people, including me, have been active on other boards but not this one. I mean, you do know that, right?

So? I still don't care. And you can lose the condescending tone. You posted this thread in this area because it's a high traffic area and you like to thump your own chest. That's the ONLY reason. Thus, your screen name. You thrive on controversy. It's your MO.

Fire Arians
11-04-2010, 04:14 PM
Anyone remember "Kill Cowher" and his ilk from the old Stillers.com? That was totally over the top. If he disagreed with any football content you posted (and he pretty much always would, regardless) he would immediately drop ribald, as-gross-as-can-be, "You ___ off your dad and I ___ your mom" nonsense. How people were entertained by that stuff, I have no idea. It would seem you'd have to be in about 7th grade to be humored by it.

I remember kill cowher lol. at first when i was new to stillers.com i found him hillarious because i thought his 'attitude' was just an act. when i started to realize that's how he actually was, i was like damn, this guy needs professional help or something, or needs to grow up.

his choice of words were rather juvenile and i remember him calling people '**** boy' if they had anything bad to say about nate washington, which i think he had some kind of gay man-crush on lol

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-04-2010, 04:44 PM
So? I still don't care. And you can lose the condescending tone. You posted this thread in this area because it's a high traffic area and you like to thump your own chest. That's the ONLY reason. Thus, your screen name. You thrive on controversy. It's your MO.

Well, to be perfectly honest, while I am no fan of THUMPER and I know nothing about you personally, your first reply to him was uncalled for and a bit on the arrogant side.

His response to your post was completely appropriate-- whether you realize it or not, there are other Steelers forums out there (some of them much better than this site), and many of us not only post here, but on other Steelers forums.

You personally may not care, but others do.

Riddle_Of_Steel
11-04-2010, 04:57 PM
Yeah, this will never get to be a totally coo coo board. That's why guys like Stupa-Fly, whatdoiknow and Downbylaw are goners. We don't mind a little crazy, but they were over the top lol.


And a heartfelt THANK YOU for that ^^^^, SCMOM. Has been great here on SF.

If this forum (and CBS, my other fav) ever get the way the Steelers official forums are, I will be checking out for good. The official forums on Steelers.com are overrun with a bunch of immature, hot-headed kids that just like to hear themselves sound knowlegeable and bash anyone who disagrees with them.

After every loss, there are about a gazillion "Fire Arians", "Fire Tomlin", "Bench Ben" threads the very next morning (go look now, there are about two of each after Sunday's loss).

Not to mention, the Steelers official forums' functionlity sucks-- I have tried to register there like 3 times in the last 4 months, and everytime after I click the link in the activiation email or try to post on the forums, it tells me I need to register or something, and takes me to a blank thread that says "test". Repeated emails to the admin/mods to fix this have met with no results. You can't even type "Dick Lebeau" with out their crappy filter removing his first name (that one belongs on Failblog-- can't even type the coach's name in an official team forum--LOL).

If some of y'all need a change of pace, you should check out CBS Sportsline sometime-- really good Steelers forum with a lot of knowlegeable Steelers characters. The only problem are that it is a public site, so you have to deal with fans of other teams, even on the team-specific forums (they are separate from the Main NFL Forums on there).

thumper
11-04-2010, 04:57 PM
So? I still don't care. And you can lose the condescending tone. You posted this thread in this area because it's a high traffic area and you like to thump your own chest. That's the ONLY reason. Thus, your screen name. You thrive on controversy. It's your MO.

Do you think I "care if you care?" I posted
the thread here because I thought it was of interest and no one
would see it posted on any other board here, like most message
boards (the one main board is typically the only one seen.) If
I wanted to post it where no one would see it....I don't see any
logic in that.

Speaking of which, can you explain how posting a thread about another PS message board is an example of "thumping my own chest?" So, how does the logic play out with that? By me illuminating that a board, not related to me in any way,
has actually gone dark, I am some how operating in a boastful manner?
Your logic could use an upgrade. God bless. :thumbsup:

thumper
11-04-2010, 05:06 PM
Well, to be perfectly honest, while I am no fan of THUMPER and I know nothing about you personally, your first reply to him was uncalled for and a bit on the arrogant side.

His response to your post was completely appropriate-- whether you realize it or not, there are other Steelers forums out there (some of them much better than this site), and many of us not only post here, but on other Steelers forums.

You personally may not care, but others do.

You are no fan of mine? <sniff, sniff> It's all good. Why she attacked
me over this post is beyond my comprehension of human logic. It's
still better than the ribald act on other boards. :hatsoff:

finesward
11-04-2010, 06:53 PM
I used to post over at stillers after years of reading. I got banned within like 4 posts by stillmill for disagreeing with him about one of his overly critical "analysis" of a certain player. That guy is a f'n clown. He is the type of fan I absolutely HATE being around when watching the steelers play. Every single motherf'n play there is something, unless it results in a TD or interception, ff, pick six...etc. always something they have to nitpick, some player they have to berate, some call the ref missed, some challenge the coach didn't challenge, or challenged and shouldn't of. These people almost ALWAYS have never played football in their lives, but are the all knowing genius of their time. Football IQ to the moon. The lot of them always have something negative to say, and in mill's case some 7th grade repetitive unimaginative insult to spray. The best part about this guy is when you call him out on one of the many instances of being wrong they start attacking you in the same manner and then ban you immediately so you can't even defend yourself. He's a prick imo, even if a single shred of his garbage could be accurate, the 97% of the insults and i know it all attitude ruin it for me. He should be very proud of turning what was once a thriving message board only a few years ago in the lame duck crapshoot it is now. There may be oh, 15 guys still posting there now. 3 of them probably mill droids. Start threads agreeing with him, and never apparently disagreeing with him. Doesn't take a genius to figure out it's just him posting under an alias to make himself look better. What a douche! F' that place. This forum is much better. After the handling of downbylaw I have much respect for this forum and it's now my go-to place to read. Mesa always has the articles posted, so no more searching mult. sites. Good mods, smart posters, good mix of rosy posters and negative nancies that aren't over the top either way. Makes for good discussion.

Hoo-hah

thumper
11-04-2010, 09:56 PM
I used to post over at stillers after years of reading. I got banned within like 4 posts by stillmill for disagreeing with him about one of his overly critical "analysis" of a certain player. That guy is a f'n clown. He is the type of fan I absolutely HATE being around when watching the steelers play. Every single motherf'n play there is something, unless it results in a TD or interception, ff, pick six...etc. always something they have to nitpick, some player they have to berate, some call the ref missed, some challenge the coach didn't challenge, or challenged and shouldn't of. These people almost ALWAYS have never played football in their lives, but are the all knowing genius of their time. Football IQ to the moon. The lot of them always have something negative to say, and in mill's case some 7th grade repetitive unimaginative insult to spray. The best part about this guy is when you call him out on one of the many instances of being wrong they start attacking you in the same manner and then ban you immediately so you can't even defend yourself. He's a prick imo, even if a single shred of his garbage could be accurate, the 97% of the insults and i know it all attitude ruin it for me. He should be very proud of turning what was once a thriving message board only a few years ago in the lame duck crapshoot it is now. There may be oh, 15 guys still posting there now. 3 of them probably mill droids. Start threads agreeing with him, and never apparently disagreeing with him. Doesn't take a genius to figure out it's just him posting under an alias to make himself look better. What a douche! F' that place. This forum is much better. After the handling of downbylaw I have much respect for this forum and it's now my go-to place to read. Mesa always has the articles posted, so no more searching mult. sites. Good mods, smart posters, good mix of rosy posters and negative nancies that aren't over the top either way. Makes for good discussion.

Hoo-hah

Yo nailed it, Finesward. That is it exactly. SFC was just as weird but in different ways

ZoneBlitzer
11-04-2010, 11:34 PM
I'll say this. This is a great board. I used to be over at steelernation and for some strange reason (I still don't know why...) I got banned. But when I was over there, I found a lot of lunacy to be quite frank. There were a few intelligent posters yes but there were also some stuff that was just a turn off.

mesaSteeler
11-04-2010, 11:50 PM
Yo nailed it, Finesward. That is it exactly. SFC was just as weird but in different ways

I also have to agree StillMill of Stillers.com was some sort of psycho. No matter how much the team won StillMill would rip them apart because it wasn't perfect in his biased eyes. When he was not blasting the Steelers he went on endless how how insightful he was. He truly had a love/hate relationship with the Steelers. Personally I think he really is a closet Brown fan.

As far as SteelersNation I used to post article over there until one their juvenile admins decided to have fun at my expense. That's when I came over here.

tony hipchest
11-05-2010, 12:27 AM
It's all good. I thought about moving this, since it doesn't have to do with Steelers football, but the locker room would be the only place I could think of, and it would just die there. If Tony or Pete want to move it, I've got no issues.


I hope this never becomes a board with nothing but flame-wars and insults. That shit is going to happen sometimes, but I'd like to think we're all adults and can get over it. For the most part I think it's worked out fine so far. I'm never going to be ultra restrictive on the debates though, same goes for Tony and Pete.

.
:drink: i think this thread is just fine where it is.


I hope this site is the "sane" site some of us have been looking for. Getting in debate, etc. can be fun. But when it turns into nothing but guttural insults, it really ruins boards. Those past two boards should be studied by a team of psychiatrists.i think you will find this site to be what you hope it is. :thumbsup:

us mods want SF to be sane as possible. i must say the membership has been really great since SCM and i came aboard. it is much easier to just blend in and be a poster than i would have expected, and that couldnt be said without everyone sharing a common goal and not pushing individual agendas.

we want the heated debates. we want the friendly atmosphere. if kids want to join and act like experts, fine. if old curmudgeon assholes want to join and act like know it all's- fine.

i personally dont care if someone hates arians or loves him. if people want big ben shipped out of town, that is their right. as long as we can all keep it respectful and keep the bigger picture in mind (that this is a community we all chose to belong to) everyone should be able to enjoy this forum as much as possible.

i like to think it only is what you put into it, and you can take out of it what you like.

with that being said, y'all have no worries of the current administration playing the thought police, being hypocrites with their moderation, or pushing political or cliquish agendas of any sort.

nobody will be punished for what they believe, or having an opinion if they just be thoughtful in how they express it.

i have found that when everyone in a forum feels they are treated fairly and with balance, the whole group thrives.

oh, and i was a member of CBSsportsline mb's before they converted to an actual forum. talk about a chaotic, vile, unmoderated mess...

i loved it! :thumbsup:

MikeHaullace
11-05-2010, 01:29 AM
So? I still don't care. And you can lose the condescending tone. You posted this thread in this area because it's a high traffic area and you like to thump your own chest. That's the ONLY reason. Thus, your screen name. You thrive on controversy. It's your MO.

http://i.imgur.com/DZtbr.jpg

:chuckle:

Rotorhead
11-05-2010, 11:51 AM
This board got pretty bad for awhile actually, alot of ppl continually argued back and forth for a few months. That is when I stopped posting for half a year or so. It seems alot of the extreme ppl deffected somewhere else but a few of the good posters left as well (dont know where as it was when I was not looking here). The board is not as good as it was before the fallout, but still one of the best Steelers boards out there.

thumper
11-05-2010, 12:14 PM
This board got pretty bad for awhile actually, alot of ppl continually argued back and forth for a few months. That is when I stopped posting for half a year or so. It seems alot of the extreme ppl deffected somewhere else but a few of the good posters left as well (dont know where as it was when I was not looking here). The board is not as good as it was before the fallout, but still one of the best Steelers boards out there.

I think all boards go through phases and cycles. I haven't been following
this one until now, so I can't comment on the history you mention. It always
seems they get into bickering phases and when that volume gets too
high some good posters will bail. By the way, SFC is still down. I think that
place is toast; they only had about 10 posters left, at most (some were probably
aliases any how) and a few of those who remained were a "Kill Cowher" level
of whack.

vasteeler
11-05-2010, 12:14 PM
yes, this board has gotten a lot better over the last few months. there is another board i am a member of as well. there are a lot of good people over there that used to be here. i had stopped coming to this site for a while but a lot of people came back to this site so i frequent both

Wallace108
11-05-2010, 01:59 PM
yes, this board has gotten a lot better over the last few months.

Thanks to hipcheese and Mom. :thumbsup:

I enjoy posting/lurking here, at SU and Planet.
The only board I have absolutely no use for is steelers.com. I couldn't get away from there fast enough.

vasteeler
11-05-2010, 03:13 PM
Thanks to hipcheese and Mom. :thumbsup:

I enjoy posting/lurking here, at SU and Planet.
The only board I have absolutely no use for is steelers.com. I couldn't get away from there fast enough.

agreed :applaudit::hatsoff:

Atlanta Dan
11-05-2010, 04:03 PM
Thanks to hipcheese and Mom. :thumbsup:
.
:thumbsup:

As other posters observed, this board was desolate after the change in management in late May but after several great posters were cast into the outer darkness at SU and returned here it became a site to which I am glad to have been welcomed back after my .... ummm .... "departure" on Election Night 2008

steelax04
11-05-2010, 11:33 PM
:thumbsup:

As other posters observed, this board was desolate after the change in management in late May but after several great posters were cast into the outer darkness at SU and returned here it became a site to which I am glad to have been welcomed back after my .... ummm .... "departure" on Election Night 2008

Same shiot over at SU with what went down on Election Night, I'm guessing... dont' disagree with the three musketeers and you're A-OK. Disagree and you're f'd.

I checked in at SU for the first time in about a month and it's the same gibberish, just a different day.

Wallace108
11-06-2010, 12:16 AM
I checked in at SU for the first time in about a month and it's the same gibberish, just a different day.

Wh-wh-wh-wh-what??? Do you really wanna paint with that broad of a brush, my friend?

steelax04
11-06-2010, 12:23 AM
Wh-wh-wh-wh-what??? Do you really wanna paint with that broad of a brush, my friend?

Like the continued "Rivers vs. Ben" threads...

or the Tim Lumber Draft post...

Your photoshop thread is about the most original thing over there...

It was just my opinion. You didn't have to agree with it.

steelerohio
11-06-2010, 01:55 AM
This has been a real cool relaxing board that I've ever singed on in a while... great insight and all...

steelerdave1969
11-06-2010, 09:15 AM
So? I still don't care. And you can lose the condescending tone. You posted this thread in this area because it's a high traffic area and you like to thump your own chest. That's the ONLY reason. Thus, your screen name. You thrive on controversy. It's your MO.

Sounds to me like this person has problems to me. Lady, express your opinion and let be. Your the only one that I have seen so far that has had anything bad to say about this guys thread. If you dont like what they post then dont go there and read them is the way I feel about it. And your just a Draft Pick anyways.

Fan Of STEEL
11-06-2010, 11:11 AM
First we saw www.stillers.com turn into cinders after it had established itself as an active, informative and entertaining site.

But after too many loonies became too active, and moderation got too extreme, that site, at one point, flamed out to almost no activity (I see there is a little bit back now, but not much.)

Then www.stillers-forums.com seemed to pick up a lot of action from former posters on SC, but the same fate ended up - seemingly - smashing SFC. That place got real bizarre - with mods booting quality posters while keeping the nuttiest of all posters around. And lately, it seems some of the nuts started prank calling a mod at work, like in their real life. The site operator said, due to the prank calls, he would likely be shutting down the site. And as of today, at least when I tried to view it, the site is down.

I hope this site is the "sane" site some of us have been looking for. Getting in debate, etc. can be fun. But when it turns into nothing but guttural insults, it really ruins boards. Those past two boards should be studied by a team of psychiatrists.

First off the site Admin lied. He made up alot of the problems on that site himself and used multiple usernames to have pretend conversations with himself. The site had only 5-6 people posting.

Yes he got a couple of e-mails requesting him to stop being an asshole and unban the two people he banned for no reason other than he did not like their opinions. The Mod was dumb enough to give out his real e-mail address with his full name. We let him know that and he got all paranoid. A lesson to all Mods... don't give out personal information unless you really know the person well.

And this site has always been "sane" with good debate.

markymarc
11-07-2010, 10:35 PM
Just keep Steelers Fever alive and well!

verks36
11-08-2010, 03:31 AM
rip those sites. Even though i was not a part of either one any site that supports the steelers... I support

StainlessStill
11-08-2010, 09:42 AM
stillers.com's problem is that the forums are outdated and the current mod there doesn't want to upgrade it. it's gone down several times and took too long to get back up, so people started filing out of there. That's how I ended up here :)

I still go by there to check out mill's analysis cause it cracks me up

I was a regular at Stillers.com as well. Actually met up with some posters during the 2007 Jags game. A good time and was a member there since I could even remember.

Right after we won the Super Bowl, I got banned FOR LIFE (!!!) because after, instead of enjoying our Super Bowl victory, Mill wanted to do nothing but bash LeBeau and fire him and making inane comments about the defense.

I stepped up and told him to enjoy the Lombardi Trophy rather than bitching up a storm about how bad LeBeau is. I told him he failed at it and he banned me for life. LMAO, so much for the hard-assed Stillers.com. It's okay for the mods to act like tools but don't like it when someone bites back. I got out of there and found this site and haven't looked back since.

joeyssteelcurtain
11-08-2010, 02:15 PM
I was a regular at Stillers.com as well. Actually met up with some posters during the 2007 Jags game. A good time and was a member there since I could even remember.

Right after we won the Super Bowl, I got banned FOR LIFE (!!!) because after, instead of enjoying our Super Bowl victory, Mill wanted to do nothing but bash LeBeau and fire him and making inane comments about the defense.

I stepped up and told him to enjoy the Lombardi Trophy rather than bitching up a storm about how bad LeBeau is. I told him he failed at it and he banned me for life. LMAO, so much for the hard-assed Stillers.com. It's okay for the mods to act like tools but don't like it when someone bites back. I got out of there and found this site and haven't looked back since.

Thats a cool story

chacha
11-09-2010, 09:41 AM
Same shiot over at SU with what went down on Election Night, I'm guessing... dont' disagree with the three musketeers and you're A-OK. Disagree and you're f'd.

I checked in at SU for the first time in about a month and it's the same gibberish, just a different day.

Aint that the truth. I would never got to SU with those mods there. I probably wouldnt be allowed anyway. :chuckle: I'm not on here as much as I'd like, but it's the only site I go on, thanks to the new mods.