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Suitanim
03-23-2006, 06:36 PM
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008130

Hobbes in Sudan
What a world without U.S. power looks like.

Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST At places like Davos and Harvard, the world's sages rarely stop fretting about the dangers of a too powerful America. Well, if you want to know what the world looks like without U.S. leadership, Exhibit A is Darfur in Sudan.


Today's leading authority on Darfur is the political philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who prophesied a world "nasty, brutish and short." At least 200,000 civilians have been killed in the past three years and two million more have become refugees. The source of the problem is the Arab rulers in Khartoum, who have pursued an ethnic cleansing campaign against black Muslims in western Sudan. They've equipped the Janjaweed Arab tribesmen to do the dirty work, and that militia is now attacking civilians across the border in Chad, creating 20,000 more refugees.




To his credit, Kofi Annan started shouting about the problem two years ago, and former Secretary of State Colin Powell labeled it "genocide" not long after that. The U.N.'s mighty peace-making machinery then started to roll and . . . nothing. The Chinese (who have close commercial ties to Khartoum) and Russians have blocked any serious intervention. Arab members of the Security Council have also opposed any attempt to single out Khartoum.



http://www.opinionjournal.com/images/storyend_dingbat.gif

The Arab League--so quick to denounce Danish cartoons--has also stymied any global intervention to stop the murder of their fellow Muslims. Here's League Secretary General Amr Musa earlier this month: "In Sudan, there is a problem related to Darfur. We will listen to the Sudanese state minister to explain to us the developments in the issue of Darfur . . ." The League plans to hold its meeting next week--in Khartoum.


The African Union has at least sent 7,000 troops to the region, but they are under-funded and under-equipped to enforce a truce that Sudan blatantly flouts. But the African failure is also political. In January the Union held its own summit in Khartoum, and next year it plans to award Sudan its presidency. The rule seems to be never to say a discouraging word about other African leaders, no matter how murderous.




As for Europe, France would be ideal to lead an intervention force. The French have military bases in neighboring Chad and could establish a no-fly zone to stop Janjaweed bombing. However, Paris is already occupied with another intervention in the Ivory Coast, and with its own business interests in Sudan isn't volunteering in any case.




Amid this global abdication, Mr. Annan finally decided last month to call in the American cavalry. He visited the White House and, with media fanfare, all but begged President Bush to do something. Despite U.S. obligations in Afghanistan, Iraq and many other places, Mr. Bush responded by proposing an expanded U.N. peacekeeping force under "NATO stewardship."



http://www.opinionjournal.com/images/storyend_dingbat.gif

But Sudan President Omar al-Beshir quickly played to type and withdrew support for a U.N. force. He also threatened that "Darfur will become the graveyard for the United Nations and foreign intervention." And rather than stand up to such threats, U.N. envoy to Sudan Jan Pronk has wilted. He's now talking up intelligence about al Qaeda terrorists in Khartoum who could retaliate against U.N. peacekeepers. And he's warning against any NATO intervention without Security Council approval--as if that would be forthcoming. All of this is a repeat of the same feckless U.N. pattern we've seen in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq.


So that leaves . . . guess who? The cowboy President, the American unilateralists, the Yankee imperialists--or, to put it another way, the only nation with the will and wallet to provide order in an otherwise Hobbesian world. However, that will and wallet are being stretched today in Iraq and elsewhere, and Mr. Bush is rightly wary of committing more American blood and treasure to a conflict in Sudan that the rest of the world doesn't seem serious about ending in any event. One lesson of Darfur is that there really are limits to American power, and in its absence the world's savages have freer reign.

tony hipchest
03-23-2006, 06:47 PM
hmmm. i dont quite know where to go with that, so i wont. touchy subject.

arent there any problems that can be solved with a few sorties of carpet bombing and a half a dozen tommohawk strikes?

theres no oil in sudan. oops, that slipped out.

Suitanim
03-23-2006, 07:05 PM
I think you missed the point...I think Bush has basically said "Eff off" to his detractors at this point and will address this situation, however unpopular and politically unsavory it may be.

The bottom line is, no matter how much the World "hates us", they are ****ed without us...

tony hipchest
03-23-2006, 08:36 PM
I think you missed the point...I think Bush has basically said "Eff off" to his detractors at this point and will address this situation, however unpopular and politically unsavory it may be.

The bottom line is, no matter how much the World "hates us", they are ****ed without us...

i definitely caught the point and can see the benefits of a "guns a'blazing president".
its just a shame some problems cant be solved with a quick and easy airstrike. especially when our president will leave office before our military is once again consolidated.

america has made this bed of being a world superpower in its young history, and with my support they will lie in it. our future generations security depends on us policing the rest of the world. it sure beats the germans or chinese policing us.

Suitanim
03-23-2006, 08:52 PM
i definitely caught the point and can see the benefits of a "guns a'blazing president".
its just a shame some problems cant be solved with a quick and easy airstrike. especially when our president will leave office before our military is once again consolidated.

america has made this bed of being a world superpower in its young history, and with my support they will lie in it. our future generations security depends on us policing the rest of the world. it sure beats the germans or chinese policing us.

"The quick and easy airstrike"...hmmm...it's a "measured response". Actually, that defines the Clinton military policy. It did absolutely nothing for anyone but made the next guys job harder...

tony hipchest
03-23-2006, 09:34 PM
"The quick and easy airstrike"...hmmm...it's a "measured response". Actually, that defines the Clinton military policy. It did absolutely nothing for anyone but made the next guys job harder...who really knew about bin laden before we missed killing him by less than an hour? no way the public wouldve supported a war against al qaieda back then. clinton did the correct pro-active response. taking the rest of them weasels out then would be just as hard then as it is today, regardless of 9/11. clinton admin. also enforced bush sr.s no fly zone and the u.n. inspectors in iraq with airstrikes. granted he didnt finish the job for his predacessor, but then again it was his predacessor who decided it was a job that didnt need finished, despite the wishes of advisors and military leaders (schwartskopff and powell). you cant act like clintons job was made easier by his predacessors policies.

but really this isnt about clinton, its about using our rescources at hand, and its a shame a few quick strikes cant resolve the problem. and no im not ignorant to mogodishu, hence why i think its a shame. we dont have the luxury of sending 75,000 men to africa in a show of force.

sometimes getting re-elected weighs in as much as whats best for the world, here and now, when decisions like these are made. and by saying this i am not accusing either of the prior 2 administrations.

im taking the middle road on this one only cause it is a difficult and touchy subject and because it coinncides with my own personal beliefs. sometimes i just wanna nuke the rest of the world, othertimes i just wish we lived in a peacefull world. its great to be an american.

ngreene15
03-23-2006, 09:50 PM
I think you missed the point...I think Bush has basically said "Eff off" to his detractors at this point and will address this situation, however unpopular and politically unsavory it may be.

The bottom line is, no matter how much the World "hates us", they are ****ed without us...

But a lot of countries are ****ed because of you. I know Canada would be ****ed without you guys, but let it go with this stuff.

DIESELMAN
03-23-2006, 10:23 PM
But a lot of countries are ****ed because of you. I know Canada would be ****ed without you guys, but let it go with this stuff.

Yes there are some countries that would've been better off had we not stepped in.In some situations that we have intervened it would've been nice to have a crystal ball to predict the outcome.At least we do try and help countries get out of the mess that they are in.We don't have the luxury of picking and choosing our fights,we've been doing this for so long now it would be real nice if the rest of the world would do a little more to help make this a peaceful world to live in.

83-Steelers-43
03-23-2006, 10:24 PM
But a lot of countries are ****ed because of you. I know Canada would be ****ed without you guys, but let it go with this stuff.

There are also a lot of countries ****ed by other countries. We tend to get more heat because we are the most powerful nation on the globe. When we do something wrong, it's magnified tens time more compared to a country that contributes jack shit to this globe. I guess that's the price you pay for being the strongest nation on the globe. I'm willing to take the heat and at times, the undeserved critisism, it's worth it. Most of it comes out of jealousy and pure stupidity.

I'm used to hearing how other countries hate the USA. When they want or need something, they know who to call. Funny huh? When shit hits the fan, they know what side to join. When their country gets slammed with a natural disaster, they know who to call for aid and relief. At times, I wish we would take the advice of some of these supposed "allies" and "mind" our "own business". See what this globe looks like then.

Livinginthe past
03-24-2006, 03:52 AM
The problem is that Bush is a war-mongering President with moron level I.Q.

Now, I am well aware that Bush is just the face of the Washington war-room and probably doesnt have much say in anything - lets hope not anyway - but the war in Iraq is ill advised as best - war crime worthy at worst.

Maybe Bush et al should spend a little more time concentrating on internal matters, such as response times to national crises, rather than looking to spread the vicious word of Christian democracy all over the world.

Constantly portraying the UN as a weak sister is just an attempt to take the heat off one of the most embarrassing , despotic, oil grabbing fiascos the world has witnessed.

NM

BlacknGold Bleeder
03-24-2006, 07:35 AM
[QUOTE=tony hipchest]who really knew about bin laden before we missed killing him by less than an hour? no way the public wouldve supported a war against al qaieda back then.

Bin laden was on the radar before 9/11.During the Iran Contra hearings,I believe. Col Oliver North was asked why he spent $60,000 on a security system? His response basically "To protect my family from the most dangeruos terrorist in the world Osama Bin Laden " How is it that a high ranking Officer knew but yet nobody else did?? Granted the public would not have supported a war but they never do uncomplicatedly.

[QUOTE=Livinginthe past]The problem is that Bush is a war-mongering President with moron level I.Q.

Now, I am well aware that Bush is just the face of the Washington war-room and probably doesnt have much say in anything - lets hope not anyway - but the war in Iraq is ill advised as best - war crime worthy at worst.

Maybe Bush et al should spend a little more time concentrating on internal matters, such as response times to national crises, rather than looking to spread the vicious word of Christian democracy all over the world.

Constantly portraying the UN as a weak sister is just an attempt to take the heat off one of the most embarrassing , despotic, oil grabbing fiascos the world has witnessed.

LITP, get your fricking head out of your A$$ !!! Just take off those Liberal rose colored glasses and try looking at the facts, weather or not you like them!
There were WMD's, Hussien was a murderous tryant and Iraq is in much better shape today then it was before . How is it an oil grabbing fiasco? Oh that's right I heard about the pipeline being built into our country. :rolleyes: I guess we are going to annex it and make it the next state, yeah a fricking state of liberal and media based denial ! Why does the media only cover the bad news in Iraq ? Do you honestly believe that the world is not a better place after the removal of a leader who has been proven to use WMD's ,he gassed his own people, for crying out loud.
As far as response times what about the mayor's response time to getting the people out of New Orleans?? What about the response time of the largely Democraptic state & local government ? What about the Federal Monies that were sent to the area over decades for levee rebuilding and strengthening?
"vicious word of Christian democracy" I don't know where to start with this statement . It is truly offensive and insulting to Christians. WTF do you get off making such an idiotic statement?? There is nothing "vicious" about Christianity, if there is prove it. As far as democracy is concerned, it is simply "representation". If you don't believe in that then please exit the country at the nearest convient place! Unfortunately with democracy also comes opinions. Yours and mine are no where near the same but ,I hope, you also know what they say about opinions... " Opinions are like a$$holes everybody has one"
Please stop believing everything you read and try investigating and considerding all sides of a story before you form your opinion. You usually have decent insight when posting. Stop drinking the Liberal Democraptic Kool Aid, it's starting to affect your brain!!

Suitanim
03-24-2006, 08:21 AM
LOL at the Brit chiming in with his naive and misinformed 2 cents...

As for Bush I, yeah, he ****ed up. He should have had the balls to finish the job, but he let the coalition determine the objectives, when the objectives should have determined the coalition (i.e. When Saddam was ripe for the plucking in '91, the US should've said "we're gonna wrap this up, and if you don't want to help out, go home")

Clinton's military responses were a joke, from the wag the dog knee jerk bombings, to the "measured responses" that accomplished nothing...basically he maintained a sort of weak-assed "status quo" for 8 years, and also sent the very wrong message that if you bloody the US's nose, and cause a few casualties, they'll turn tail and run (Mogadishu).

Anyway, back to the original matter, not only is Bush going to act on Darfur, the Senate and house both have legislation pending concerning putting a stop to the slaughter...oh yeah, that's right...we're going to help a country that doesn't really offer us anything in return because that's just what we do...

Cape Cod Steel Head
03-24-2006, 01:51 PM
Bush is going to intervene in this 3 year old crime of genocide? They must have discovered something there we want, or need.

Suitanim
03-24-2006, 07:28 PM
Bush is going to intervene in this 3 year old crime of genocide? They must have discovered something there we want, or need.

Reading is fundamental:

"Amid this global abdication, Mr. Annan finally decided last month to call in the American cavalry. He visited the White House and, with media fanfare, all but begged President Bush to do something. Despite U.S. obligations in Afghanistan, Iraq and many other places, Mr. Bush responded by proposing an expanded U.N. peacekeeping force under "NATO stewardship."

Livinginthe past
03-25-2006, 01:53 AM
The problem is that Bush is a war-mongering President with moron level I.Q.

Now, I am well aware that Bush is just the face of the Washington war-room and probably doesnt have much say in anything - lets hope not anyway - but the war in Iraq is ill advised as best - war crime worthy at worst.

Maybe Bush et al should spend a little more time concentrating on internal matters, such as response times to national crises, rather than looking to spread the vicious word of Christian democracy all over the world.

Constantly portraying the UN as a weak sister is just an attempt to take the heat off one of the most embarrassing , despotic, oil grabbing fiascos the world has witnessed.

LITP, get your fricking head out of your A$$ !!! Just take off those Liberal rose colored glasses and try looking at the facts, weather or not you like them!
There were WMD's, Hussien was a murderous tryant and Iraq is in much better shape today then it was before . How is it an oil grabbing fiasco? Oh that's right I heard about the pipeline being built into our country. :rolleyes: I guess we are going to annex it and make it the next state, yeah a fricking state of liberal and media based denial ! Why does the media only cover the bad news in Iraq ? Do you honestly believe that the world is not a better place after the removal of a leader who has been proven to use WMD's ,he gassed his own people, for crying out loud.
As far as response times what about the mayor's response time to getting the people out of New Orleans?? What about the response time of the largely Democraptic state & local government ? What about the Federal Monies that were sent to the area over decades for levee rebuilding and strengthening?
"vicious word of Christian democracy" I don't know where to start with this statement . It is truly offensive and insulting to Christians. WTF do you get off making such an idiotic statement?? There is nothing "vicious" about Christianity, if there is prove it. As far as democracy is concerned, it is simply "representation". If you don't believe in that then please exit the country at the nearest convient place! Unfortunately with democracy also comes opinions. Yours and mine are no where near the same but ,I hope, you also know what they say about opinions... " Opinions are like a$$holes everybody has one"
Please stop believing everything you read and try investigating and considerding all sides of a story before you form your opinion. You usually have decent insight when posting. Stop drinking the Liberal Democraptic Kool Aid, it's starting to affect your brain!!

Thats certainly an interesting post - I always enjoy the 'foaming at the mouth' approach to debate.

Maybe you would like to inform us all exactly what WMD's were found in Iraq?

To my knowledge we have found absolutely none.

I find it incredibly naive that you think that War In Iraq is not based on the acquisition of cheaper oil - if the new puppet democracy in Iraq ever takes hold I think the USA will be offered very favorable prices for access to a new source.

Profiteering from the war In Iraq http://www.sundayherald.com/33021

Numbers of starving children mulitply by 5 since US invasion

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4395525.stm

I think you will find the reason that the media 'only cover the bad news' in Iraq is the fact that is about the only type of news available.

Despite all the protests to the contrary since the latest invasion of a sovereign state by the USA

- less people have access to drinkable water

- less homes are supplied by electricity

- unemployment has risen

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/NAG108A.html

Thank god for George Bush and his vision of a brighter, better Iraq.

This is not even taking into account the daily bloodbaths as the country finds itself hurtling towards civil war between the Sunni and Shi'ite populations.

All the evidence you need regarding the New Orleans fiasco are the pictures of people huddled in the Superdome for days on end - where was Bush then?

He was given plenty of warning from specialists who told him that the levee's wouldnt hold against the sort of onslaught Katrina might provide - what did he do?

He sat on his hands - just like he did when 9/11 was in progress - maybe he thought that reacting to a national emergency was less important than attending a school visit.

There is nothing vicious about Christainity?

That has to be the most inane comment I have seen in my time on this forum - and believe me I have seen plenty.

Christianity and its various denominations is responsible for an incredible amount of suffering through the years - Africa being converted forcibly from mere 'savages' against their will., being just one example.

Read this.

http://www.seesharppress.com/20reasons.html

If we look at the head of the Roman Catholic church we find one of the most corrupt organisations on the face of the planet - money laundering, profiteering from weapons, the effective genocide of millions of Africans through outdated teachings on contraception.

You say I believe everything I read - well from your response I find it hard to believe you actually take the time to read anything at all.

I am more and more convinced that America is mind programming its more gullible citizens to believe that calling someone a 'Liberal' is an insult.

A complete lack of tolerance for anything other than the USA's defintion of democracy make it bigger threat to the free world than Russia ever was.

I'll be waiting for your response to any of the above points, any further advice as to where to place various parts of my anatomy will be ignored.

NM

Cape Cod Steel Head
03-25-2006, 07:15 AM
Reading is fundamental:

"Amid this global abdication, Mr. Annan finally decided last month to call in the American cavalry. He visited the White House and, with media fanfare, all but begged President Bush to do something. Despite U.S. obligations in Afghanistan, Iraq and many other places, Mr. Bush responded by proposing an expanded U.N. peacekeeping force under "NATO stewardship."

Yes, reading is fundamental! Check your source. Reason for bias? The U.N. What do we need them for??

Stlrs4Life
03-25-2006, 10:59 AM
"The quick and easy airstrike"...hmmm...it's a "measured response". Actually, that defines the Clinton military policy. It did absolutely nothing for anyone but made the next guys job harder...


Yeah it's better to shed Americans blood over it. And still not get anything done.

tony hipchest
03-25-2006, 10:59 AM
[QUOTE=tony hipchest]who really knew about bin laden before we missed killing him by less than an hour? no way the public wouldve supported a war against al qaieda back then.

Bin laden was on the radar before 9/11.During the Iran Contra hearings,I believe. Col Oliver North was asked why he spent $60,000 on a security system? His response basically "To protect my family from the most dangeruos terrorist in the world Osama Bin Laden " How is it that a high ranking Officer knew but yet nobody else did?? Granted the public would not have supported a war but they never do uncomplicatedly.

!
yes ollies comments on bin laden are documented and definitely high ranking officials knew of him and the potential threat. however the mass voting public did not know of him. he wasnt even a blip on the radar. i dont remember his name coming up in the '88 or 92' presidential debates. until 98 or 99 i dont even recall his name being mentionned in the news on a monthly basis.

clinton will/has taaken all take the heat for his failed missle strikes (from the right). it was pretty much his only options though. had he succeeded, 9/11 wouldve still happened and clinton would be blamed for that and putting a stick in the hornets nest, waking a sleeping dog, etc. i love when people dog clinton for his limp wristed approach. i guess he shouldve declared war on al quaida and saudi arabia to root out those terrorists after the barracks bombing that killed about 18 soldiers. im sure that wouldve got alot of support from congress, the publick, and the rest of the oil hungry world.

RoethlisBURGHer
03-25-2006, 11:24 AM
Personally I say f--k the rest of the world.

Why?They hate us.But when they need money and supplies,they run to us.We help all the middle-east and other third world countries and they all hate us.They attack us and our allies.

I don't give money and supplies to people that hate and attack me.I say we should let the rest of the world fight and kill each other.The fewer America hating bastards there iis in this world,the better.

And that the hell is France gonna do?They can't do anything,they are a bunch of damn wusses.

Livinginthe past
03-25-2006, 12:50 PM
Personally I say f--k the rest of the world.

Why?They hate us.But when they need money and supplies,they run to us.We help all the middle-east and other third world countries and they all hate us.They attack us and our allies.

I don't give money and supplies to people that hate and attack me.I say we should let the rest of the world fight and kill each other.The fewer America hating bastards there iis in this world,the better.

And that the hell is France gonna do?They can't do anything,they are a bunch of damn wusses.

The rest of the world doesn't hate you because you are American

It hates you because of the testosterone fueled opinions like the one you displayed in your post.

The USA has done very little in recent years in terms of selfless acts abroad - there is always an angle.

For years the CIA have had a finger in every foreign domestic dispute from Cuba to Zimbabwe - they are always behind the scenes manipulating scenarios to give results most pleasing to their superiors.

When I went travelling, expecially in Europe, I met plenty of American travllers who were embarrassed to call themselves American - the preferred to hide behind the maple leaf of your close neighbours.

I was disappointed in these actions - you should always be proud of where you are from - but the more of these close minded, aggressive, and thoughtless opinions I hear the more I dont blame them for pretending to be Canadian.

NM

SteelCityMan786
03-25-2006, 02:13 PM
http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110008130

Hobbes in Sudan
What a world without U.S. power looks like.

Thursday, March 23, 2006 12:01 a.m. EST At places like Davos and Harvard, the world's sages rarely stop fretting about the dangers of a too powerful America. Well, if you want to know what the world looks like without U.S. leadership, Exhibit A is Darfur in Sudan.


Today's leading authority on Darfur is the political philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who prophesied a world "nasty, brutish and short." At least 200,000 civilians have been killed in the past three years and two million more have become refugees. The source of the problem is the Arab rulers in Khartoum, who have pursued an ethnic cleansing campaign against black Muslims in western Sudan. They've equipped the Janjaweed Arab tribesmen to do the dirty work, and that militia is now attacking civilians across the border in Chad, creating 20,000 more refugees.




To his credit, Kofi Annan started shouting about the problem two years ago, and former Secretary of State Colin Powell labeled it "genocide" not long after that. The U.N.'s mighty peace-making machinery then started to roll and . . . nothing. The Chinese (who have close commercial ties to Khartoum) and Russians have blocked any serious intervention. Arab members of the Security Council have also opposed any attempt to single out Khartoum.



http://www.opinionjournal.com/images/storyend_dingbat.gif

The Arab League--so quick to denounce Danish cartoons--has also stymied any global intervention to stop the murder of their fellow Muslims. Here's League Secretary General Amr Musa earlier this month: "In Sudan, there is a problem related to Darfur. We will listen to the Sudanese state minister to explain to us the developments in the issue of Darfur . . ." The League plans to hold its meeting next week--in Khartoum.


The African Union has at least sent 7,000 troops to the region, but they are under-funded and under-equipped to enforce a truce that Sudan blatantly flouts. But the African failure is also political. In January the Union held its own summit in Khartoum, and next year it plans to award Sudan its presidency. The rule seems to be never to say a discouraging word about other African leaders, no matter how murderous.




As for Europe, France would be ideal to lead an intervention force. The French have military bases in neighboring Chad and could establish a no-fly zone to stop Janjaweed bombing. However, Paris is already occupied with another intervention in the Ivory Coast, and with its own business interests in Sudan isn't volunteering in any case.




Amid this global abdication, Mr. Annan finally decided last month to call in the American cavalry. He visited the White House and, with media fanfare, all but begged President Bush to do something. Despite U.S. obligations in Afghanistan, Iraq and many other places, Mr. Bush responded by proposing an expanded U.N. peacekeeping force under "NATO stewardship."



http://www.opinionjournal.com/images/storyend_dingbat.gif

But Sudan President Omar al-Beshir quickly played to type and withdrew support for a U.N. force. He also threatened that "Darfur will become the graveyard for the United Nations and foreign intervention." And rather than stand up to such threats, U.N. envoy to Sudan Jan Pronk has wilted. He's now talking up intelligence about al Qaeda terrorists in Khartoum who could retaliate against U.N. peacekeepers. And he's warning against any NATO intervention without Security Council approval--as if that would be forthcoming. All of this is a repeat of the same feckless U.N. pattern we've seen in Bosnia, Kosovo and Iraq.


So that leaves . . . guess who? The cowboy President, the American unilateralists, the Yankee imperialists--or, to put it another way, the only nation with the will and wallet to provide order in an otherwise Hobbesian world. However, that will and wallet are being stretched today in Iraq and elsewhere, and Mr. Bush is rightly wary of committing more American blood and treasure to a conflict in Sudan that the rest of the world doesn't seem serious about ending in any event. One lesson of Darfur is that there really are limits to American power, and in its absence the world's savages have freer reign.

That's some other countries for ya. They want us to bail them out.

83-Steelers-43
03-25-2006, 04:11 PM
I'd love to compare the amount of foreign aid we give to the world compared to other "world powers". I mean, since we are such a horrible country, I'm just curious. Personally, I could careless what some idiot across the ocean thinks about this country. When we do something good, it's bitched about by some leader or group on this globe. We are told to mind our business in certain situations and when we actually do mind our own business, we are told "the USA only cares about themselves". It's a lose/lose situation.

While I know we have our faults, much like every other country on this globe, I know we are good at heart. If we were not, this globe would be in a shit load of trouble. I simply laugh at these idiots and when they want or need something, I shake my head when we actually give it to them. Like I said though, knowing we are the strongest nation on the globe, it's worth the heat and having to listen to these idiots that know no better. What can you do but laugh and shrug it off?

In the words of the great Forrest Gump........"That's all I gotta say about that"

Suitanim
03-25-2006, 06:53 PM
I'm out.

Anytime a foreigner starts to pretend to know more than US citizens, when those citizens are immersed in the day-to-day news and nuances of their own government, some of them with college degree's in Political Science, it's clearly an "Inmates running the asylum" situation and time to cut and run.

Livinginthe past
03-25-2006, 08:07 PM
Some people are scared by debate, where you might be actually challenged to back up hearsay and conjecture.

It seems that if calling someone an idiot, or telling them to remove their heads from their anus doesn't work then they have very little else to offer.

These are adult topics - some people can't leave the petty personal sniping where it belongs.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-25-2006, 10:25 PM
http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/thumb/5/58/200px-405_dance.gifAnytime a foreigner starts to pretend to know more than US citizen

Exactly. It's a joke. Let "Pip" talk....:sofunny:

"Hello. My name is Phillip, but everyone here calls me Pip because they hate me."

Livinginthe past
03-26-2006, 06:17 AM
correct me if i'm wrong here...but isn't there iraqi blood on english hands as well?:coffee:
i guess we'll have to split the oil.:rolleyes:

You are 100% right there MOP.

I am truly embarrassed with the part the UK has played in this farce in Iraq - there are way too many British soldiers dead with nothing to show for their sacrafice.

Tony Blair has basically been caught out lying about the likelihood of there being WMD's in Iraq and what exactly their strike range capability was.

The House Of Commons, whose approval Blair sought, was led to believe that Saddam Hussein had the ability to launch long range WMD's, that had the ability to reach British targets, in the space of just 30 minutes.

This turned out to be completely incorrect.

The way in which Tony Blair has remained a passive lap dog to Bush is enough to make an Englishman vomit - and Blair has recently pronounced that 'God is the only one who can judge him'.

That degree of arrogance is quite astounding - the British people who voted him into office are quite entitled to judge him.

It doesn't take some with a degree in Political Science to see that this has been a huge cover-up from the very beginning.

NM

Cape Cod Steel Head
03-26-2006, 11:25 AM
I'm out.

Anytime a foreigner starts to pretend to know more than US citizens, when those citizens are immersed in the day-to-day news and nuances of their own government, some of them with college degree's in Political Science, it's clearly an "Inmates running the asylum" situation and time to cut and run.The sad part about it is a lot of foreigners know a lot more about whats going on in our own country then our own citizens do. If it doesn't involve American Idol, or WWF then they don't care. WAKE UP AMERICA!

Livinginthe past
03-26-2006, 01:17 PM
The sad part about it is a lot of foreigners know a lot more about whats going on in our own country then our own citizens do. If it doesn't involve American Idol, or WWF then they don't care. WAKE UP AMERICA!

This is a huge problem across the world.

I dont want to get too far into conspiracy theories, but you have to wonder why there is such a continuous supply of garbage in the media - endless Reality TV shows that take little or no brain power to watch.

I think our generation have lapsed into total ennui regarding the workings of national and global politics - this stuff affects us all hugely although maybe not directly enough to get our attention.

A common problem in the UK is turnout numbers for elections - the voting public are so convinced that they will be getting a raw deal whichever way they turn they dont bother to vote at all.

Every problem you have in America is about 5-10 years away from happening in the UK.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-26-2006, 01:25 PM
I hate reality TV.

The only channels I watch.........

Discovery Channel
History Channel
Comedy Central
HBO (The Sopranos, Autopsy, Deadwood, Band of Brothers, Carnival)
ESPN (Sports shows in general)
The Military Channel
The Discovery/Science Channel
FOX News
FOX (Family Guy and Cops)

RoethlisBURGHer
03-26-2006, 02:18 PM
The rest of the world doesn't hate you because you are American

It hates you because of the testosterone fueled opinions like the one you displayed in your post.

The USA has done very little in recent years in terms of selfless acts abroad - there is always an angle.

For years the CIA have had a finger in every foreign domestic dispute from Cuba to Zimbabwe - they are always behind the scenes manipulating scenarios to give results most pleasing to their superiors.

When I went travelling, expecially in Europe, I met plenty of American travllers who were embarrassed to call themselves American - the preferred to hide behind the maple leaf of your close neighbours.

I was disappointed in these actions - you should always be proud of where you are from - but the more of these close minded, aggressive, and thoughtless opinions I hear the more I dont blame them for pretending to be Canadian.

NM

When a country has some disaster,who do they f--king run to for money,supplies,food,medication?The United States of America.Many of these countries hate America.It's a fact.Some even use the money and stuff we give them by giving them to terrorist groups.

That is why I say f--k them.If they hate us so much,then I don't think we should be giving them anything.If they can't get by on thier own and crumble,it does the rest of the world some good by ridding the world of more terrorists.Anyone that supports terrorists is a terrorist,and many of the countries in the middle east and africa are terrorists.

Suitanim
03-26-2006, 02:24 PM
The sad part about it is a lot of foreigners know a lot more about whats going on in our own country then our own citizens do. If it doesn't involve American Idol, or WWF then they don't care. WAKE UP AMERICA!

Sad when a Political Science major, someone involved in local politics for 15 years, someone who has close friends that work for the government in DC is accused by someone who doesn't even....

Aw, **** it, why do I even bother?

Livinginthe past
03-26-2006, 02:29 PM
When a country has some disaster,who do they f--king run to for money,supplies,food,medication?The United States of America.Many of these countries hate America.It's a fact.Some even use the money and stuff we give them by giving them to terrorist groups.

That is why I say f--k them.If they hate us so much,then I don't think we should be giving them anything.If they can't get by on thier own and crumble,it does the rest of the world some good by ridding the world of more terrorists.Anyone that supports terrorists is a terrorist,and many of the countries in the middle east and africa are terrorists.

Firstly, you have to understand that your defintion of a Terrorist can be someone else's defintion of a Freedom fighter (its a cliche but very true).

The USA, through the CIA, often fund both sides of a war in a foreign country in order to keep the status quo - ie a weakened country with continous in-fighting so that the country can never gain in economic and military strength.

If you look at Afghanistan as an example - the USA funded the Taliban in order to help them fight off the communist influence of the Soviet Union.

These were the same weapons that were then turned on American and British soldiers when the USA and the UN invaded in order to capture Osama Bin Laden.

Well, we still didnt catch the guy and there is still ongoing bloodshed there.

I remember how the Northern Front (the Taliban's main rivals) were helped financially and with weaponry to over throw the Taliban - then we heard how civil rights would make a stunning comeback and women would be allowed an education and to report rape.

After the initial euphoria things quickly returned to exactly how they were, only the name of the ruling goverment had changed - women are still deprived of any sort of education and have the civil rights of animals.

All that was achieved was that the Governments of the USA and Britain could say they tried their hardest to find the war criminal Osama - many British and American soldiers lost their lives in complete futility.

NM

Livinginthe past
03-26-2006, 02:33 PM
Sad when a Political Science major, someone involved in local politics for 15 years, someone who has close friends that work for the government in DC is accused by someone who doesn't even....

Aw, **** it, why do I even bother?

Instead of bleating on about what qualifications you may or may not have, why dont you add something constructive to the debate?

Im always willing to learn, and even if I dont agree directly with what someone says I will often store the info away in case it arises at a future date.

These hissy fits do not seem to be the actions of someone who claims to be such an expert in the field of Politics - can you imagine a Senator standing up when questioned, and throwing his hands in the air exclaiming "Aw, **** it, why do I even bother?".

I doubt you can.

NM

Mr. Clean
03-26-2006, 04:26 PM
It's real easy, and seemingly fair game, to blame the US for the problems and instability of the world.

I don't remember this much moaning and groaning and b*tch*ng when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and spent nine years there killing and maiming Afghanis of all ages.

Those that b*tch and moan and groan about Guantanamo never open their mouths about the horrendous prisons that Castro runs in the rest of Cuba. The Left loves to drag up Chile, the coup, and Pinochet (who was a bloody dictator, but he did establish a market economy that is thriving) but they won't utter a critical word about Castro, and his support for terrorism.

Did the Left complain when Saddam gassed Iraqi citizens? I don't recall it. Did the Left utter a word about the Oil for Food corruption involving Russia, France, Germany, Saddam and Kofi Annan? I don't recall it.

Anytime the United States acts to protect its interests, one can count on the International Left - the pinhead pseudo intellectuals of the Northeast Corridor who believe everything they read in the New York Times and the Washington Post, the Western European media, ANSWER, George Soros, and the Hollywood types to scream bloody murder.

I am no big fan of Dubya. He has permitted the Congress to spend money worse than drunken sailors would.

AFAIAC, the rest of the world that hates the US can go f&*k itself.

For decades, the Western European nations have been trying to be nice to the radical Arab states. They let Muslims in, kowtow to the radical Arab political line, and ignore the human rights abuses. At the same time, anti-Semitism is returning to Western Europe.

Western Eurpoe isn't the only place where US bashing can guarantee a political career. It's worked with the Liberal Party in Canada and with Lula da Silva in Brazil and Nestor Kirchner in Argentina. Latin American blowhard politicians have long blamed the US for all of their problems. It works to get one elected, but really doesn't provide a soluiton to problems.

One could write volumes about the foul ups of US foreign policy, going back decades if not centuries. The US is not alone in this regard. Britian, France, and Portugal stuck their noses in Africa for centuries and made a huge mess of the place - when they weren't engaging in the slave trade.

Livinginthe past
03-26-2006, 04:41 PM
It's real easy, and seemingly fair game, to blame the US for the problems and instability of the world.

I don't remember this much moaning and groaning and b*tch*ng when the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan and spent nine years there killing and maiming Afghanis of all ages.

Those that b*tch and moan and groan about Guantanamo never open their mouths about the horrendous prisons that Castro runs in the rest of Cuba. The Left loves to drag up Chile, the coup, and Pinochet (who was a bloody dictator, but he did establish a market economy that is thriving) but they won't utter a critical word about Castro, and his support for terrorism.

Did the Left complain when Saddam gassed Iraqi citizens? I don't recall it. Did the Left utter a word about the Oil for Food corruption involving Russia, France, Germany, Saddam and Kofi Annan? I don't recall it.

Anytime the United States acts to protect its interests, one can count on the International Left - the pinhead pseudo intellectuals of the Northeast Corridor who believe everything they read in the New York Times and the Washington Post, the Western European media, ANSWER, George Soros, and the Hollywood types to scream bloody murder.

I am no big fan of Dubya. He has permitted the Congress to spend money worse than drunken sailors would.

AFAIAC, the rest of the world that hates the US can go f&*k itself.

For decades, the Western European nations have been trying to be nice to the radical Arab states. They let Muslims in, kowtow to the radical Arab political line, and ignore the human rights abuses. At the same time, anti-Semitism is returning to Western Europe.

Western Eurpoe isn't the only place where US bashing can guarantee a political career. It's worked with the Liberal Party in Canada and with Lula da Silva in Brazil and Nestor Kirchner in Argentina. Latin American blowhard politicians have long blamed the US for all of their problems. It works to get one elected, but really doesn't provide a soluiton to problems.

One could write volumes about the foul ups of US foreign policy, going back decades if not centuries. The US is not alone in this regard. Britian, France, and Portugal stuck their noses in Africa for centuries and made a huge mess of the place - when they weren't engaging in the slave trade.

Thanks for an excellent post Mr Clean.

Its nice for someone to put their point across so succinctly.

I agree that the USA takes alot of flak - I guess thats one of the major downsides to being so huge, geographically and economically.

As far as comparisons with the Soviet Union go - they never made any real pretense at democratic government - their aim was to almagamate as many eastern bloc countries in to the Soviet Union as possible.

America trumpets long and hard about bringing democracy to the countris it invades - its difficult to see how you can force a democracy on people - I dont remember very many cases of this approach working historically.

There is no doubt that European countries have committed some atrocious crimes in years past, The British Empire, much like any other caused an enormous amount of bloodshed.

Its funny that you should mention anti-semitism - I have been reading alot about various towns in the Gaza strip and the kind of martial law that exists there - supported by the Israeli army of course.

I dont think all Jews are bad , the same way I dont think all Muslims are bad - but the world is as intolerant as ever of people differences.

I think alot of perceived injustice in the Muslim world is caused by the continuous intervention of the US on the side of the Irsaeli's in the dispute with the Palestinians.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-26-2006, 04:52 PM
Israel: Stay, help us please.

Iran: We want to literally blow Israel off the map. Keep your nose out of our business

Two groups have been killing each other for centuries and will continue to kill each other for centuries. We leave, Israel as we know it will be off the map. Maybe that's what some people want to see? For a bunch of anti-american morons who spread the word of peace, not war, and would not fight back if they were getting bombed (just call us), they sure don't seem to have a problem with a country getting cleaned off the map or acts of genocide. If anything, our presence in that region is what's keeping a possible nuclear or biological war from occuring.

Then again, when your getting your news from the BBC, Al-Jazeer and other stations that spit out anti-american propaganda, what do you expect? That's fine, when shit hits the fan, we will see who these idiots want on their side. Maybe it will take a few planes crashing into their place of work or a family members place of work?

SteelerzGirl
03-26-2006, 05:38 PM
Hey, shouldn't we all just be happy we don't have to speak German and/or Japanese? God Bless America! :smile:

Suitanim
03-26-2006, 05:53 PM
Hey, shouldn't we all just be happy we don't have to speak German and/or Japanese? God Bless America! :smile:
Perhaps I should have never even posted this topic. I've since been subsequently accused of being too childish to debate in my own debate thread, then been accused of not even being able to argue and support my own original argument that I, myself, presented, argued and defended...

See how silly it is to argue with crazy people?

SteelerzGirl
03-26-2006, 06:01 PM
See how silly it is to argue with crazy people?

:iagree:

:wink:

Suitanim
03-26-2006, 06:12 PM
Then again, there's a certain discomfort in knowing that I've been muscled out of my own thread by insanity...

Oh well, there will be other threads...

Mr. Clean
03-26-2006, 08:04 PM
People get bent out of shape by politics, Suitanim, but I would hope you wouldn't be afraid of stirring the pot once in a while.

The thing with politics in a messaage board is the anonymity. People can and often do act with far less charity on the 'Net than they would face to face. The same goes with sports.

augustashark
03-27-2006, 12:20 AM
Firstly, you have to understand that your defintion of a Terrorist can be someone else's defintion of a Freedom fighter (its a cliche but very true).

The USA, through the CIA, often fund both sides of a war in a foreign country in order to keep the status quo - ie a weakened country with continous in-fighting so that the country can never gain in economic and military strength.

If you look at Afghanistan as an example - the USA funded the Taliban in order to help them fight off the communist influence of the Soviet Union.

These were the same weapons that were then turned on American and British soldiers when the USA and the UN invaded in order to capture Osama Bin Laden.

Well, we still didnt catch the guy and there is still ongoing bloodshed there.

I remember how the Northern Front (the Taliban's main rivals) were helped financially and with weaponry to over throw the Taliban - then we heard how civil rights would make a stunning comeback and women would be allowed an education and to report rape.

After the initial euphoria things quickly returned to exactly how they were, only the name of the ruling goverment had changed - women are still deprived of any sort of education and have the civil rights of animals.

All that was achieved was that the Governments of the USA and Britain could say they tried their hardest to find the war criminal Osama - many British and American soldiers lost their lives in complete futility.

NM


Litp, you need to learn the word RESPECT! If not for the US in WWI or WWII, England would be speaking German to this day! It really makes me sick when I hear anyone from England, France and Canada talk about the US in any way other than with respect. We have saved each and everyone of these countries at one time or another!

The weapons of which you speak of is one of the lefties favorite comebacks when talking about the war in afghanistan! You need to do some more research on that matter before you talk about it with out giving all the facts. Most lefties say things over and over in hopes that people begin to agree with them. Some Americans will go along with what someone else says just because of the platform in which they say it!

Litp, I hear you and others on here talk about "war for oil" or "this war is wrong" or "Bush is a liar"! You speak about how you feel about the war which is your right, but why don't you tell me what you think we should do NOW! Tell me how we get out of this "war for oil"?

Suitanim
03-27-2006, 07:53 AM
People get bent out of shape by politics, Suitanim, but I would hope you wouldn't be afraid of stirring the pot once in a while.



There's absolutely a zero percent chance of that ever happening:shout:

Livinginthe past
03-27-2006, 12:09 PM
Litp, you need to learn the word RESPECT! If not for the US in WWI or WWII, England would be speaking German to this day! It really makes me sick when I hear anyone from England, France and Canada talk about the US in any way other than with respect. We have saved each and everyone of these countries at one time or another!

The weapons of which you speak of is one of the lefties favorite comebacks when talking about the war in afghanistan! You need to do some more research on that matter before you talk about it with out giving all the facts. Most lefties say things over and over in hopes that people begin to agree with them. Some Americans will go along with what someone else says just because of the platform in which they say it!

Litp, I hear you and others on here talk about "war for oil" or "this war is wrong" or "Bush is a liar"! You speak about how you feel about the war which is your right, but why don't you tell me what you think we should do NOW! Tell me how we get out of this "war for oil"?

Respect is earned Shark - I think very few of of your Government are worthy of this accolade...and that includes your draft dodging President.

The Presidents and Governments that came to the aid of the British and the French in the WW's have nothing to do with the current administration.

Im not too clued up on Canada/ America war partnerships - when did the States ever save Canada?

You have done a great job of quoting some of my recent posts, but where are your thoughts on the various subjects?

Apart from calling me a 'lefty' I cannot see one convincing rebuttal of any of my points.

Why dont you educate me about the weapons in Afghanistan that I mentioned, id love to hear your take on exactly where they came from ; maybe you think the Soviets donated them in order to give them a fighting chance?

Once you have supplied some of these answers we can get into possible solutions for the War in Iraq - if such a thing exists.

NM

augustashark
03-27-2006, 02:09 PM
Respect is earned Shark - I think very few of of your Government are worthy of this accolade...and that includes your draft dodging President.

The Presidents and Governments that came to the aid of the British and the French in the WW's have nothing to do with the current administration.

Im not too clued up on Canada/ America war partnerships - when did the States ever save Canada?

You have done a great job of quoting some of my recent posts, but where are your thoughts on the various subjects?

Apart from calling me a 'lefty' I cannot see one convincing rebuttal of any of my points.

Why dont you educate me about the weapons in Afghanistan that I mentioned, id love to hear your take on exactly where they came from ; maybe you think the Soviets donated them in order to give them a fighting chance?

Once you have supplied some of these answers we can get into possible solutions for the War in Iraq - if such a thing exists.

NM


You are drunk from that kool aid that you have been drinking! I never said anything about our government! I said the US came to the need of England and France! Our country in general deserves respect from both countries.

My question to you is, if you ran into a WWII vet would you shake his hand and say thanks?

As far as Canada, are you kidding! Another question, Why has there never been any type of war or invasion on Canadian soil?

You speak about the weapons that the US gave to Afghanistan. Have you ever heard of the enemy of my enemy is my friend! Let me ask you this. If England had supplied Poland weapons to fight Germany and 20 years later Poland turned around and attacked England, would that make England the reason why Poland attacked you? As bad as Afghanistan turned out to be, we still did not want the Soviet Union to spread communism through out the middle east. If you think about it, if the Soviet Union had won they would have been right in the middle of the middle east. Now you can speculate what would have happen from there, me I think that it would have been a launching pad for most of the eastern world! Hell, for all we know Italy could be a communist nation today!

Reagan was a hero and true patriot of this great country and for you an Englishman to say otherwise is just plain ignorant! Learn your facts about a subject before you go and say things that you really know little about!

Now, I really would like to hear what you think the solution is for this "war for oil"?

Livinginthe past
03-27-2006, 02:23 PM
You are drunk from that kool aid that you have been drinking! I never said anything about our government! I said the US came to the need of England and France! Our country in general deserves respect from both countries.

My question to you is, if you ran into a WWII vet would you shake his hand and say thanks?

As far as Canada, are you kidding! Another question, Why has there never been any type of war or invasion on Canadian soil?

You speak about the weapons that the US gave to Afghanistan. Have you ever heard of the enemy of my enemy is my friend! Let me ask you this. If England had supplied Poland weapons to fight Germany and 20 years later Poland turned around and attacked England, would that make England the reason why Poland attacked you? As bad as Afghanistan turned out to be, we still did not want the Soviet Union to spread communism through out the middle east. If you think about it, if the Soviet Union had won they would have been right in the middle of the middle east. Now you can speculate what would have happen from there, me I think that it would have been a launching pad for most of the eastern world! Hell, for all we know Italy could be a communist nation today!

Reagan was a hero and true patriot of this great country and for you an Englishman to say otherwise is just plain ignorant! Learn your facts about a subject before you go and say things that you really know little about!

Now, I really would like to hear what you think the solution is for this "war for oil"?

So you are suggesting that your whole country deserves unending respect for something that was done 60 years ago?

Most of the people who did any good in those two wars are dead or very old - and they certainly aren't the ones who are behind the War In Iraq.

If I met a WW2 vet I would be honoured to be in his presence; I am in his debt for the rest of his and my life.

The same applies to anyone who fought in Vietnam, even though that was another complete disaster of a war.

I have a huge amount of respect for the soldiers who fought on either side - these aren't the guys who are calling the shots, but they are the ones trying to avoid the bullets.

Its a simple fact that USA supplied the weaponry to the Taliban - they judged them to be the lesser of two evils and alot of American soldiers have died from that decision.

As far as Canada goes, are you going to take credit for protecting Fiji aswell?

After all - they havent been attacked either - must have been the USA protecting them right?

Reagan was certainly not my idea of a hero - he was a jumped up film cowboy who didnt seem to realise the camera's had stopped rolling.

The only real solution is for the British and American forces to pull out Iraq at the earliest opportunity - people are dying every day in violent fashion - its time to stop the bleeding.

I dont know if Iraq will be able to pull itself out of the hole that the USA led invasion has left it in - but it stands more chance than if they stayed.

NM

pucho58
03-27-2006, 04:03 PM
What is the big deal. We are the dominant country so we will dominant other countries; thats the way of life. Mankind has being fighting for land since the beginning of time. If the United States was weak and helpless,we would be dominated by another country. Thats the way of the concrete jungle,only the strong survive(which happens to be The U.S.). Remember at one time Spain and England dominanted the world. Now do not get me wrong,I hate wars just like the next person but there is nothing thats going to stop wars from happening. If a country has something we want and doesn't want to share,we will find a way to get it;if not,someone else will.

Livinginthe past
03-27-2006, 04:22 PM
What is the big deal. We are the dominant country so we will dominant other countries; thats the way of life. Mankind has being fighting for land since the beginning of time. If the United States was weak and helpless,we would be dominated by another country. Thats the way of the concrete jungle,only the strong survive(which happens to be The U.S.). Remember at one time Spain and England dominanted the world. Now do not get me wrong,I hate wars just like the next person but there is nothing thats going to stop wars from happening. If a country has something we want and doesn't want to share,we will find a way to get it;if not,someone else will.

Thats about as honest as it gets.

And probably not too far away from the rationale behind the War In Iraq.

NM

Suitanim
03-27-2006, 07:34 PM
What is the big deal. We are the dominant country so we will dominant other countries; thats the way of life. Mankind has being fighting for land since the beginning of time. If the United States was weak and helpless,we would be dominated by another country. Thats the way of the concrete jungle,only the strong survive(which happens to be The U.S.). Remember at one time Spain and England dominanted the world. Now do not get me wrong,I hate wars just like the next person but there is nothing thats going to stop wars from happening. If a country has something we want and doesn't want to share,we will find a way to get it;if not,someone else will.
That's an excellent analysis...however it omits the one (and most important) basic difference between the US and every other dominant World power throughout history...namely that the US is, for the most part, a benevolent World ruler. Sure, with such a heavy hand, we sometimes make a bigger mess than we intended, and sometimes we flat out mess up, but, for the most part, the World is a much better, safer, peaceful place with the US at the helm.

Which is a perfect full circle in this thread, since it was more or less the original intended message.

augustashark
03-27-2006, 10:44 PM
So you are suggesting that your whole country deserves unending respect for something that was done 60 years ago?

YES I AM


Most of the people who did any good in those two wars are dead or very old - and they certainly aren't the ones who are behind the War In Iraq.

Missing the point again


If I met a WW2 vet I would be honoured to be in his presence; I am in his debt for the rest of his and my life.

Good answer!


The same applies to anyone who fought in Vietnam, even though that was another complete disaster of a war.

I have a huge amount of respect for the soldiers who fought on either side - these aren't the guys who are calling the shots, but they are the ones trying to avoid the bullets.

Are you saying that you respect terrorists?


Its a simple fact that USA supplied the weaponry to the Taliban - they judged them to be the lesser of two evils and alot of American soldiers have died from that decision.

So you're saying that fighting against communism back in the 80's was the wrong thing to do? Oh yea, there is no way they would have been able to obtain weapons with out us! :dang:


As far as Canada goes, are you going to take credit for protecting Fiji aswell?

NO! I will however take credit for Canada. Are you saying that the United States being the southern neighbor has nothing to do with that?


After all - they havent been attacked either - must have been the USA protecting them right?

Reagan was certainly not my idea of a hero - he was a jumped up film cowboy who didnt seem to realise the camera's had stopped rolling.

Was it your father or mother who told you about Reagan? Discovery channel did a poll on who the greatest american of all time is or was. Funny thing is that they took phone calls from any american that wanted to vote, guess who won! Mr. Ronald Reagan! If that does not say hero then nothing ever will! Your Ignorance is now just overflowing!


The only real solution is for the British and American forces to pull out Iraq at the earliest opportunity - people are dying every day in violent fashion - its time to stop the bleeding.

Cut and run! Funny, I bet my wife that this would be what you would say! $20 richer! Thanks man.

I dont know if Iraq will be able to pull itself out of the hole that the USA led invasion has left it in - but it stands more chance than if they stayed.

Yea, this country was an oasis before we got there! :dang:

NM


Thank God that you will never be in a position of power!

Steelersfan
03-28-2006, 01:32 AM
So you are suggesting that your whole country deserves unending respect for something that was done 60 years ago?

YES I AM

That was a whole nother generation. That the respect will die out as that generation dies out in each country.

Its a simple fact that USA supplied the weaponry to the Taliban - they judged them to be the lesser of two evils and alot of American soldiers have died from that decision.

So you're saying that fighting against communism back in the 80's was the wrong thing to do? Oh yea, there is no way they would have been able to obtain weapons with out us!

The problem we ran into here is that we didn't follow through after the Russian's left the country. This allowed terrorist's a place to train. And I'm pretty sure the Taliban didn't cause too many American deaths. More like the terrosists groups that actually had the will to fight.

The only real solution is for the British and American forces to pull out Iraq at the earliest opportunity - people are dying every day in violent fashion - its time to stop the bleeding.

The solution at this time is to stay in Iraq until the country is stabilized. I don't care if you agree or not on why we went there. It would be a disaster for all involved if we left now. And don't come back and say it was one from the start. We are talking the solution now, not then.

I dont know if Iraq will be able to pull itself out of the hole that the USA led invasion has left it in - but it stands more chance than if they stayed.

Is this statement a joke? I can't imagine that once the Iraq people get a taste of freedom and are able to make their own choices that one of those would be to have a dictator back in charge.


These are just a select few statements that I wanted to comment on.

Oh ya, when the hell we getting all this oil anyways? I'm still waiting for the prices to drop instead of rising :)

pucho58
03-28-2006, 07:18 AM
Oh ya, when the hell we getting all this oil anyways? I'm still waiting for the prices to drop instead of rising :)[/QUOTE]

Maybe the high oil prices is to help pay for the war. :wink:

SteelerzGirl
03-28-2006, 07:24 AM
Maybe Nigel is resentful and bitter over this lil document? :bouncy:


http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/index.htm


Personally, I am very respectful of my country?s rich history, including WW1, WW2, the Revolutionary War, the Civil War, etc. We are who we are and have what we have in this country because of those who fought for us and our freedoms and liberties. Any generation who isn?t respectful of that should be ashamed of themselves.

83-Steelers-43
03-28-2006, 08:43 AM
Nigel?

SteelerzGirl
03-28-2006, 10:42 AM
Nigel?

Whoopsie... LITP is Nigel. Hey, wasn't Drew Carey's boss a Brit named Nigel? LOL :smile:

83-Steelers-43
03-28-2006, 11:50 AM
Whoopsie... LITP is Nigel. Hey, wasn't Drew Carey's boss a Brit named Nigel? LOL :smile:

Oh, I didn't know LITP's name is........................Nigel.

Livinginthe past
03-28-2006, 01:44 PM
Are you saying that you respect terrorists?

I am pretty sure I already covered this topic earlier.

Terrorism and terrorists is not a black and white subject - there are lots of grey areas.

One of these is the factor of perspective - are you telling me that if you were born in Vietnam you would have been calling the Viet Cong terrorists?

If you were born in Afghanistan there is a fair probability that you would have found yourself shooting at American soldiers in the last couple of years - would you consider yourself a terrorist?

So you're saying that fighting against communism back in the 80's was the wrong thing to do? Oh yea, there is no way they would have been able to obtain weapons with out us!

Well, that again depends on your perspective - I presume you understand what the term 'lefty' means - seeing as you called me one in an earlier post?

I would say a large part of the fight against 'Communism', especially 'Reds in the USA' was largely fabricated - it was mostly insitutionalised paranoia.

One thing the Bush administration has learned - keep em scared.

People who are constantly in fear of a non-existent bogey-man are much easier to manipulate - so you can rush through abominations like the Patriot Act - which pretty much contradicts the freedom of speech.

NO! I will however take credit for Canada. Are you saying that the United States being the southern neighbor has nothing to do with that?

Im saying that if an invasion has never taken place then its pretty difficult to prove it one way or the other. Its like saying the Steelers only won the SB becasue the Pats got knocked out by the Bronco's - its impossible to prove.

Was it your father or mother who told you about Reagan? Discovery channel did a poll on who the greatest american of all time is or was. Funny thing is that they took phone calls from any american that wanted to vote, guess who won! Mr. Ronald Reagan! If that does not say hero then nothing ever will! Your Ignorance is now just overflowing!

The masses are generally uneducated, especially on the subject of politics.

These people should probably stick to voting people off Big Brother.

Prove to me that you aren't one of the masses - tell me about Ronald Reagans achievements - ill bet I can counter most of them.

Cut and run! Funny, I bet my wife that this would be what you would say! $20 richer! Thanks man.

Im glad I could help you take some money from your wife. Seeing as I had already strongly hinted that America had no place invading Iraq in the first place it was hardly the largest leap in logic to guess that would be my answer.

If your wife is reading this, she should probably demand that you let her read the whole thread before making bets with you.

So Augusta, I have done my bit and answered your questions.

Perhaps you will return that favor?

1. Tell me about Reagans achievements that made him the Greatest American ever.

2. Tell me what your strategy would be in Iraq as things currently stand, bearing mind that things are on a downward trend as I type this.

Thanks

NM

Livinginthe past
03-28-2006, 01:49 PM
That was a whole nother generation. That the respect will die out as that generation dies out in each country.

Agreed.

The problem we ran into here is that we didn't follow through after the Russian's left the country. This allowed terrorist's a place to train. And I'm pretty sure the Taliban didn't cause too many American deaths. More like the terrosists groups that actually had the will to fight.

Thats a fair point - why didnt the Americans follow through and convert the country to a good Christian Democracy?


The solution at this time is to stay in Iraq until the country is stabilized. I don't care if you agree or not on why we went there. It would be a disaster for all involved if we left now. And don't come back and say it was one from the start. We are talking the solution now, not then.

What is your timetable regarding 'stabilizing' the country? Things are getting worse by the day and it is in a lot worse state that it was before the USA invaded.
How many more years do you think it will take?

Is this statement a joke? I can't imagine that once the Iraq people get a taste of freedom and are able to make their own choices that one of those would be to have a dictator back in charge.

Name me any country that has had a democracy thrust upon it by outside forces - ill name you a country that returned dictatorship not long after.

These are just a select few statements that I wanted to comment on.

Oh ya, when the hell we getting all this oil anyways? I'm still waiting for the prices to drop instead of rising :)

Thanks for the civil reply Steelerfan.

NM

augustashark
03-28-2006, 11:07 PM
I am pretty sure I already covered this topic earlier.

Terrorism and terrorists is not a black and white subject - there are lots of grey areas.

One of these is the factor of perspective - are you telling me that if you were born in Vietnam you would have been calling the Viet Cong terrorists?

If you were born in Afghanistan there is a fair probability that you would have found yourself shooting at American soldiers in the last couple of years - would you consider yourself a terrorist?

Terrorism is not black and white? That Nigel is your main problem! It is black and white! You either want to blow up americans or you don't! What is it that you don't understand about this?


Well, that again depends on your perspective - I presume you understand what the term 'lefty' means - seeing as you called me one in an earlier post?

You know what is funny is that most left wing people are upset that rightys have made the word liberal a bad word or it stands for something that is unamerican. When I called you a lefty though you take offence. Why is that? Be proud of who you are Nigel! We rightys need guys like you! Makes us look smarter when you are around!


I would say a large part of the fight against 'Communism', especially 'Reds in the USA' was largely fabricated - it was mostly insitutionalised paranoia.

Where are your facts to support this claim? If not for Reagan and America, England would have had there asses handed to them by the "Reds"! Listen, it is not my fault that America is the strongest most feared country in the world. I'll tell you this though I'd rather live in a hobble in the good old US of A then live in a palace in England or any other country!


One thing the Bush administration has learned - keep em scared.

So your saying that if a country is afraid of the US and that keeps them from attacking us, that is a bad thing? :rolleyes:

People who are constantly in fear of a non-existent bogey-man are much easier to manipulate - so you can rush through abominations like the Patriot Act - which pretty much contradicts the freedom of speech.

Fear keeps you sharp. This is the reason that England has been attacked since 9/11 and the US has not!

Im saying that if an invasion has never taken place then its pretty difficult to prove it one way or the other. Its like saying the Steelers only won the SB becasue the Pats got knocked out by the Bronco's - its impossible to prove.

Only you would pull sports into a conversation that is more important then anything else in the world today! Canada has never been attacked for one reason and one reason alone, the UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!!!!!!!! Please understand this, your ignorance is almost overpowering!

The masses are generally uneducated, especially on the subject of politics.

Not much faith in the people, Nigel? You might want to be careful what you say, 99% of the people on this board is "the masses"!


These people should probably stick to voting people off Big Brother.

Thats why this show started in England! Must be stupid uneducated masses!

Prove to me that you aren't one of the masses - tell me about Ronald Reagans achievements - ill bet I can counter most of them.

The last thing that I would do regarding this thread is try to prove to you why Reagan was a true patriot and a hero! Tell me about Clintons achievements and I'll bet you that I can counter most of them! :sofunny:

Im glad I could help you take some money from your wife. Seeing as I had already strongly hinted that America had no place invading Iraq in the first place it was hardly the largest leap in logic to guess that would be my answer.

Let me say this Nigel, I knew before this thread even started which way you leaned and what your take would be on the war in Iraq! Your predictable to say the least!


If your wife is reading this, she should probably demand that you let her read the whole thread before making bets with you.

So Augusta, I have done my bit and answered your questions.

Perhaps you will return that favor?

1. Tell me about Reagans achievements that made him the Greatest American ever.

See above!

2. Tell me what your strategy would be in Iraq as things currently stand, bearing mind that things are on a downward trend as I type this.

Why, you already told me that I knew what your answer would be, therefore you should know mine!

Thanks

NM

I say again, thank God you do not have a position of power!

clevestinks
03-29-2006, 10:01 AM
Damn we argue more politics than football,

Steelersfan
03-29-2006, 11:15 AM
Name me any country that has had a democracy thrust upon it by outside forces - ill name you a country that returned dictatorship not long after.

Germany and Japan to name a couple. And they took years and years to get to where they are. Iraq could take a while. At least until the three factions there learn to work together. Things will start to get better there.

pucho58
03-29-2006, 11:23 AM
Damn we argue more politics than football,

:iagree: Maybe we should start talking about Religion:wink02:

Hawk Believer
03-29-2006, 11:49 AM
[QUOTE=augustashark]Litp, you need to learn the word RESPECT! If not for the US in WWI or WWII, England would be speaking German to this day! It really makes me sick when I hear anyone from England, France and Canada talk about the US in any way other than with respect. We have saved each and everyone of these countries at one time or another!

QUOTE]
I think we can only play the WWI and WWII card so much though. What the US did 60 years ago was incredible (though not entirely devoid of self interest) and from my experience most Western Europeans I have encountered are still greatful for that. When I have traveled and the topic of the wars come up, most people thank me even though I wasn't born for thirty years after the last shot was fired. But that doesn't mean we should be absolved from criticism of our comtemporary foriegn policy. Because by that logic, we shouldn't ever talk smack about the French since they put us over the top in the Revolutionary War. And to argue that Americans can't criticize the French, well thats just downright un-American.

Hawk Believer
03-29-2006, 12:11 PM
One theme I see recurring in this thread how the US deserves respect because of the amount of foreign aid we dole out. And we do give more money than any country. But often our foriegn aid tarnishes our image in the eyes of the world more than it helps.

Check out the book The Road To Hell by Michael Maren if you are interested in the topic. Its a very challenging book that describes how Non-Govermental Organizations (NGOs) who are funded by US tax money have facilitated Genocide and famine by throwing money and food at countries in ways that support graft and destroy economies. The tragedy is that many of the people in the NGOs truly believe that they are doing a great thing when they are actually making the world a worse place.

The book has its flaws and it is pretty light on offering solutions. But as I said, I found it to be very challenging to some firmly held beliefs of mine and I will never donate to one of those feed the starving children agencies again with out thoroughly vetting their practices.

Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that the aid we deliver to other countries often only benefits corrupt regimes and warlords and tarnishes our image in the eyes of the masses we truly want to help. Ironically, it seems in some cases, everyone would be better off if we didn't inject our aid.

83-Steelers-43
03-29-2006, 12:24 PM
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that the aid we deliver to other countries often only benefits corrupt regimes and warlords and tarnishes our image in the eyes of the masses we truly want to help. Ironically, it seems in some cases, everyone would be better off if we didn't inject our aid.

Unfortunately, the people that need the aid and food feel the need to blame the hand that feeds them instead of the scumbags that run their country. We spend the money and send the food. What else can we do? I would have no problem cutting off aid to these countries that use it for other reasons. IMO, we should worry about our own starving and homeless first.

Personally, I send money to domestic organizations that help feed the starving and less fortunate in our own country. In my opinion, that's more important.

BTW, thanks for the book title. I'll look for it. Much appreciated.

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 01:03 PM
Terrorism is not black and white? That Nigel is your main problem! It is black and white! You either want to blow up americans or you don't! What is it that you don't understand about this?

Overly simplistic answer - I am not surprised. Not all terrorism involves America directly. And you avoided my question about how you would think of yourself if you were born in Vietnam or Afghanistan.

You know what is funny is that most left wing people are upset that rightys have made the word liberal a bad word or it stands for something that is unamerican. When I called you a lefty though you take offence. Why is that? Be proud of who you are Nigel! We rightys need guys like you! Makes us look smarter when you are around!

I didnt take offence - that was my exact point . I merely pointed out that you tried to use the word liberal as an insult - I didnt take it as such.
Anyone who calls themselves a 'righty' shouldnt be making comments about how smart other people look.

Where are your facts to support this claim? If not for Reagan and America, England would have had there asses handed to them by the "Reds"! Listen, it is not my fault that America is the strongest most feared country in the world. I'll tell you this though I'd rather live in a hobble in the good old US of A then live in a palace in England or any other country!

What is a 'hobble' you illiterate chump? I can only presume you mean hovel - its embarrassing that you spend time insulting others intelligence.
There is a word that perfectly describes people like you - jingoistic - look it up.
All this brazen chest beating shows the mentality of a school yard bully - what have you ever done to make America the 'most feared country in the world'.
And I hardly think 'most feared' is much of a compliment anyway.

So your saying that if a country is afraid of the US and that keeps them from attacking us, that is a bad thing?

Oh dear, I was talking about American citizens - hence the reference to the Patriot Act :dang:

Fear keeps you sharp. This is the reason that England has been attacked since 9/11 and the US has not!

Utter nonsense. We were attacked for backing the USA in the first place.

The last thing that I would do regarding this thread is try to prove to you why Reagan was a true patriot and a hero! Tell me about Clintons achievements and I'll bet you that I can counter most of them!

Oh dear oh dear shark. You cannot even muster a single argument in favor of Reagan?
That is pitiful. So you want me to tell you about Clinton instead?
Dont make me laugh - you have just been exposed as faking a working knowledge of American political history- I expected nothing less.

Why, you already told me that I knew what your answer would be, therefore you should know mine!

New record set for the lamest reply. Scared to let us see what a shallow individual you are? The fact is you dont have anything to say on any of the relevant points.

You cannot even tell me what you think the best policy for Iraq is - even though you are quick enough to tell me that my opinion is wrong.

All you have to offer are mindless, jingoistic (did you look that up yet?) insults - again im not surprised.

Stick to the Blast Furnace, lightweight.

NM

Hawk Believer
03-29-2006, 01:04 PM
Unfortunately, the people that need the aid and food feel the need to blame the hand that feeds them instead of the scumbags that run their country. We spend the money and send the food. What else can we do? I would have no problem cutting off aid to these countries that use it for other reasons. IMO, we should worry about our own starving and homeless first.

Personally, I send money to domestic organizations that help feed the starving and less fortunate in our own country. In my opinion, that's more important.

BTW, thanks for the book title. I'll look for it. Much appreciated.
The point they make in the book is that sometimes the way we send money and food actually damages the country and the people we are trying to help do have reason to blame us. It gets pretty complicated, but here are some brief examples from the book.

One of the first example the author gives is a project that he was going to do in Kenya as a young and inexperienced USAID worker. He had a big budget and needed to create projects to spend it. So he decided that he was going to dig wells in remote areas. Sounds like a great project. But he then learns that if you go a start digging wells in the middle of nowhere, people and their herds will come to them. Soon such a concentration of people and their animals will be there that the animals will have to hike furhter and further to find land to graze on. After a while, the distance needed to travel from the well becomes so far that the herds die trying to get from the water to the food. So a well intentioned idea (no pun intended) and use of foreign aid would end up destroying the area's main industry. A large amount of US would be spent on the project but it was not going to be done with full knowledge of the local impact. You could see how such a scenario could create more enemies than friends.

On the macro level, the whole structure of NGOs has major problems. You have organizations that require disasters to maintain funding. No famine, no refugee crisis = less income for Save the Children or whatever NGO. So on some level, there is an incentive for NGOs to at least embelish and market disasters. On a more salacious level, some could be accused of propogating them.

Consider what would happen to the US farmer (lets imagine farming over a hundred years ago when it wasn't all done by megacorporations) if someone was delivering free grain to the US. It wouild totally screw the farmers over because it would make their crops worthless. So when we continue to dump our excess grain into a famined country, we are making it impossible for them to regain self sufficiency by destroying their agricultural infrastucture. And the grain we donate is often controlled by unsavory characters who use it for power and people still starve.

Its all very complicated. It seems that there must be a happy medium where we can help people from starving in the streets during an emergency but not cripple the country by giving too much for too long. There is a huge need for foreign aid reform, but I have yet to see anyone addressing it because it is geopolotical third rail for the US.

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 01:06 PM
[QUOTE=augustashark]Litp, you need to learn the word RESPECT! If not for the US in WWI or WWII, England would be speaking German to this day! It really makes me sick when I hear anyone from England, France and Canada talk about the US in any way other than with respect. We have saved each and everyone of these countries at one time or another!

QUOTE]
I think we can only play the WWI and WWII card so much though. What the US did 60 years ago was incredible (though not entirely devoid of self interest) and from my experience most Western Europeans I have encountered are still greatful for that. When I have traveled and the topic of the wars come up, most people thank me even though I wasn't born for thirty years after the last shot was fired. But that doesn't mean we should be absolved from criticism of our comtemporary foriegn policy. Because by that logic, we shouldn't ever talk smack about the French since they put us over the top in the Revolutionary War. And to argue that Americans can't criticize the French, well thats just downright un-American.

Beautifully put.

Its the same logic that allows me to talk freely with German people I met whilst travelling without constantly referring to the war.

NM

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 01:14 PM
The point they make in the book is that sometimes the way we send money and food actually damages the country and the people we are trying to help do have reason to blame us. It gets pretty complicated, but here are some brief examples from the book.

One of the first example the author gives is a project that he was going to do in Kenya as a young and inexperienced USAID worker. He had a big budget and needed to create projects to spend it. So he decided that he was going to dig wells in remote areas. Sounds like a great project. But he then learns that if you go a start digging wells in the middle of nowhere, people and their herds will come to them. Soon such a concentration of people and their animals will be there that the animals will have to hike furhter and further to find land to graze on. After a while, the distance needed to travel from the well becomes so far that the herds die trying to get from the water to the food. So a well intentioned idea (no pun intended) and use of foreign aid would end up destroying the area's main industry. A large amount of US would be spent on the project but it was not going to be done with full knowledge of the local impact. You could see how such a scenario could create more enemies than friends.

On the macro level, the whole structure of NGOs has major problems. You have organizations that require disasters to maintain funding. No famine, no refugee crisis = less income for Save the Children or whatever NGO. So on some level, there is an incentive for NGOs to at least embelish and market disasters. On a more salacious level, some could be accused of propogating them.

Consider what would happen to the US farmer (lets imagine farming over a hundred years ago when it wasn't all done by megacorporations) if someone was delivering free grain to the US. It wouild totally screw the farmers over because it would make their crops worthless. So when we continue to dump our excess grain into a famined country, we are making it impossible for them to regain self sufficiency by destroying their agricultural infrastucture. And the grain we donate is often controlled by unsavory characters who use it for power and people still starve.

Its all very complicated. It seems that there must be a happy medium where we can help people from starving in the streets during an emergency but not cripple the country by giving too much for too long. There is a huge need for foreign aid reform, but I have yet to see anyone addressing it because it is geopolotical third rail for the US.

Great post Hawk.

The examples you give are definitely examples of incompetence in American foreign policy - but at least you can say they aren't deliberately malicious.

As you say, this is a very complicated scenario - and it certainly isnt black and white as some people would have it.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-29-2006, 01:25 PM
Then cut off the aid and see how those countries do then. Fine by me. Less money we have to spend on countries that are ungrateful and have zero hope of moving up in the food chain. Worry about our own. Sounds good to me.

On a side note: "As some people would have it" we aren't the only ones that make the same mistakes, but in some people's little world, we are the root of all evil. We mean well but some of the anti-american scumbags on this earth ignore that point. Some only feel the need to look at our faults instead of looking in the mirror. Go figure.

Hawk Believer
03-29-2006, 01:30 PM
Then cut off the aid and see how those countries do then. Fine by me.

On a side note: "As some people would have it" we aren't the only ones that make the same mistakes, but in some people's little world, we are the root of all evil. Go figure.
As cold as that sounds, I believe that refraining from aid can be the most compassionate thing we could do in some situations. Its definately better to spend no money at all then to spend it unwisely. But I think most people judge foreign aid solely by how much money has been spent rather than how effective the aid is.

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 01:32 PM
Then cut off the aid and see how those countries do then. Fine by me. Less money we have to spend on countries that are ungrateful when all is said and done. Worry about our own. Sounds good to me.

On a side note: "As some people would have it" we aren't the only ones that make the same mistakes, but in some people's little world, we are the root of all evil. Go figure.

So you agree that its a good thing not to spend money in a way that is disadvantageous to other countries?

Well done.

This thread is about America's foreign policy - hence the reason the USA tend to crop up now and then.

American politicians are not the root of all evil - just alot of it.

Why dont you explain what you mean by 'looking in the mirror'?

I personally havent done anything to directly cause the fiasco in Iraq, or the numerous foreign aid mistakes; and im certainly not accusing anyone here of doing that either.

The UK Government is just as culpable as its USA counterpart - just on a smaller scale.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-29-2006, 01:36 PM
So you agree that its a good thing not to spend money in a way that is disadvantageous to other countries?

Well done.

This thread is about America's foreign policy - hence the reason the USA tend to crop up now and then.

American politicians are not the root of all evil - just alot of it.

NM

No, I did not say that. It's unwise to spend foreign aid money on countries that are ungrateful. They put out their hands one second and then next thing you know they are burning an American flag in the middle of their ghetto's.

"Just alot of it".....lol, this goes back to the end of my last post.

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 01:38 PM
No, I did not say that. It's unwise to spend foreign aid money on countries that are ungrateful. They put out their hands one second and then next thing you know they are burning an American flag in the middle of their ghetto's.

"Just alot of it".....lol, this goes back to the end of my last post.

Didnt you hear?

According to Augustashark, America is the 'most feared' country in the world?

You dont get that type of reputation without doing some seriously bad stuff.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-29-2006, 01:57 PM
What exactly does Augustashark's comments have to do with anything? lol, I give up. I've come to the realization long ago that some people are simply jealous and upset with their own lives so they decide to blame the USA. Take care "Nigel".

augustashark
03-29-2006, 01:59 PM
Overly simplistic answer - I am not surprised. Not all terrorism involves America directly. And you avoided my question about how you would think of yourself if you were born in Vietnam or Afghanistan.



I didnt take offence - that was my exact point . I merely pointed out that you tried to use the word liberal as an insult - I didnt take it as such.
Anyone who calls themselves a 'righty' shouldnt be making comments about how smart other people look.



What is a 'hobble' you illiterate chump? I can only presume you mean hovel - its embarrassing that you spend time insulting others intelligence.
There is a word that perfectly describes people like you - jingoistic - look it up.
All this brazen chest beating shows the mentality of a school yard bully - what have you ever done to make America the 'most feared country in the world'.
And I hardly think 'most feared' is much of a compliment anyway.



Oh dear, I was talking about American citizens - hence the reference to the Patriot Act :dang:



Utter nonsense. We were attacked for backing the USA in the first place.



Oh dear oh dear shark. You cannot even muster a single argument in favor of Reagan?
That is pitiful. So you want me to tell you about Clinton instead?
Dont make me laugh - you have just been exposed as faking a working knowledge of American political history- I expected nothing less.



New record set for the lamest reply. Scared to let us see what a shallow individual you are? The fact is you dont have anything to say on any of the relevant points.

You cannot even tell me what you think the best policy for Iraq is - even though you are quick enough to tell me that my opinion is wrong.

All you have to offer are mindless, jingoistic (did you look that up yet?) insults - again im not surprised.

Stick to the Blast Furnace, lightweight.

NM


Wow, you seem to be upset. Try a brown paper bag, breath in and out into said bag until you feel better. There, are you ok now? I'm just pointing out why America is the greatest country in the world and that there are many countries including England that depend on us to lead the way! Your inferiority complex needs to be addressed! Maybe laying on a leather sofa three to four times a week will help in the matter!

"England was attacked because they back the US". Yea your right, there is no way the terrorist consider England a country of infidels! Still with the ignorance! Unbelievable!

Ok, then explain to me what is unconstitutional about the patriot act? Remeber, before you answer that, we were attacked and now are at war.

As far as Reagan, no matter what I say, a lefty like you will come back with some lame ass excuse of why he was not a hero or a true patriot. I don't want to get into a back and forth with an Englishman about our fourtieth president! Like, I can say that Reaganomics was great for our country at a time when mortgage rates were at 13 to 15% and taxes were putting a strain on our middle class to the point where the american dream of owning their own home was very difficult. It makes since to me that if we give the american workers a tax break and put more money in their pockets that they will turn around and put that money back into the american economy! You being a left wing socialist will never understand this concept!

I know it is status quo that NIGEL always gets the last word on this board, so I will let you reply and spew your socialist views on here, but I think that going on any further with you will get repetitive and lame!

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 02:08 PM
Wow, you seem to be upset. Try a brown paper bag, breath in and out into said bag until you feel better. There, are you ok now? I'm just pointing out why America is the greatest country in the world and that there are many countries including England that depend on us to lead the way! Your inferiority complex needs to be addressed! Maybe laying on a leather sofa three to four times a week will help in the matter!

"England was attacked because they back the US". Yea your right, there is no way the terrorist consider England a country of infidels! Still with the ignorance! Unbelievable!

Ok, then explain to me what is unconstitutional about the patriot act? Remeber, before you answer that, we were attacked and now are at war.

As far as Reagan, no matter what I say, a lefty like you will come back with some lame ass excuse of why he was not a hero or a true patriot. I don't want to get into a back and forth with an Englishman about our fourtieth president! Like, I can say that Reaganomics was great for our country at a time when mortgage rates were at 13 to 15% and taxes were putting a strain on our middle class to the point where the american dream of owning their own home was very difficult. It makes since to me that if we give the american workers a tax break and put more money in their pockets that they will turn around and put that money back into the american economy! You being a left wing socialist will never understand this concept!

I know it is status quo that NIGEL always gets the last word on this board, so I will let you reply and spew your socialist views on here, but I think that going on any further with you will get repetitive and lame!

I should have known a lightweight like you would have only this to offer.

It pretty obvious that you just googled Ronald Reagan and typed out the first few things that popped up.

As far as the Patriot act being unconstitutional goes; try these links.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/26/patriot.act.ap/

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/18589prs20040929.html

Your own judges have ruled it unconstitutional - wake up and smell the coffee, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.


You have the reasoning ability of a 5 year old.

Still no strategy for Iraq I see?

Probably because you can't find an answer on Google.

The "ill let you have the last word" strategy is getting old, and predictable - I have the last word because you have nothing worthwhile to offer in reply - and you know it.

Baby.

NM

Suitanim
03-29-2006, 03:56 PM
Jesus, what the Hell are you guys talking about? Talk about going off on a tangent.

Let's try and rope this thing in again and start with a little history lesson, shall we? After the Civil War, the US adopted a bit of an isolationist policy. Guess what? We were hated for it. All those resources and riches and emerging industries and we weren't sharing and yada, yada, yada...

Then the US switched to expansionism...NOT colonialism, expansionism. With an excess of goods, new markets needed to be opened...fast forward to the Monroe Doctrine, which expanded the US role in North, Central and South America, but only to protect it's own interests against Europe, who still had designs on our side of the Atlantic. In essence, we became the police of the Western Hemisphere. Remember "Walk softly, but carry a big stick"? Guess what? We were hated for that, too...

Then, of course, we were needed in WWI, and although that war was probably more unpopular with the general US citizenry as Iraq II will ever be, we intervened, and won the war for the allies.

Then, briefly, we were loved...but mostly because all the major economies of the World were essentially destroyed, so, guess who had to bail everyone out? Again? I'll give you one guess...

Fast forward 20 some years, and the US bailed out everyone again (And our entering THAT war was also unpopular amongst the citizens until Pearl Harbor). Then we were loved again...then we were hated again, etc, etc...

This is all just a cyclical pattern that will continue on ad infinitum...in fact, if China were to attack Europe tomorrow, the Germans, and French and English and all the rest of the lot would be be begging at the US's doorstep yet again, and we'd of course help out, save the day again, then be briefly loved, then despised a few years later...

Benevolent rulers are only remembered for their benevolency long after the fact...ever hear the expression "The bad old days"? As long as the US is the big dog, we'll be hated and scrutinized and questioned, etc, etc...it's just part of the territory...

augustashark
03-29-2006, 04:11 PM
I should have known a lightweight like you would have only this to offer.

It pretty obvious that you just googled Ronald Reagan and typed out the first few things that popped up.

As far as the Patriot act being unconstitutional goes; try these links.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/26/patriot.act.ap/

http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/18589prs20040929.html

Your own judges have ruled it unconstitutional - wake up and smell the coffee, you haven't a clue what you are talking about.


You have the reasoning ability of a 5 year old.

Still no strategy for Iraq I see?

Probably because you can't find an answer on Google.

The "ill let you have the last word" strategy is getting old, and predictable - I have the last word because you have nothing worthwhile to offer in reply - and you know it.

Baby.

NM


Oh my God! Did you just pull out a link to the aclu! That has to be either the funniest or the stupidest thing that I thought you would come back with!

And yes you nailed it on the head, I googled Reagan and wrote down the first thing I read!:dang: You caught me!

As far as the strategy as I see it is this.

I don't believe in the "cut and run" theory! I feel that we must finish the job at all cost! I do not say that lightly for the reason that I have lost friends of mine in Iraq! We must not let their deaths be for nothing. I think we continue to work with the people of Iraq because I believe they want to be free. We need to work towards an infrastructure in Iraq! We also need to at all cost, prove to the people of Iraq that we are not there for their resourses (oil)!

To win a war when every step is covered my the biased media is tough! I think back to WWI or II and if those wars were covered by the media that it would have been very hard to win! This saying of hearts and minds is nuts! Do you think that we would've won the hearts and minds in WWII? For the love of God, there were millions of people who lost their lives in that war!

We do what Americans do! We work our asses off until the job is done! You don't abandon what you start! That is a sign of weakness!

We don't do what we did in 1991, which is pick up and leave! I will never let go of the fact that GHWB had a great opportunity to take out Suddam, but left him in power to kill and torture his own people!

I will say that it is easier to give a strategy against the war then it is for winning the war!

Your answer to me for your strategy was "we leave"!

Livinginthe past
03-29-2006, 04:26 PM
Oh my God! Did you just pull out a link to the aclu! That has to be either the funniest or the stupidest thing that I thought you would come back with!

And yes you nailed it on the head, I googled Reagan and wrote down the first thing I read!:dang: You caught me!

As far as the strategy as I see it is this.

I don't believe in the "cut and run" theory! I feel that we must finish the job at all cost! I do not say that lightly for the reason that I have lost friends of mine in Iraq! We must not let their deaths be for nothing. I think we continue to work with the people of Iraq because I believe they want to be free. We need to work towards an infrastructure in Iraq! We also need to at all cost, prove to the people of Iraq that we are not there for their resourses (oil)!

To win a war when every step is covered my the biased media is tough! I think back to WWI or II and if those wars were covered by the media that it would have been very hard to win! This saying of hearts and minds is nuts! Do you think that we would've won the hearts and minds in WWII? For the love of God, there were millions of people who lost their lives in that war!

We do what Americans do! We work our asses off until the job is done! You don't abandon what you start! That is a sign of weakness!

We don't do what we did in 1991, which is pick up and leave! I will never let go of the fact that GHWB had a great opportunity to take out Suddam, but left him in power to kill and torture his own people!

I will say that it is easier to give a strategy against the war then it is for winning the war!

Your answer to me for your strategy was "we leave"!

I gave you a couple of links that reported facts - indisputable facts.

You made yourself look an absolute ass by asking me how the Patriot act was unconstitutional - and part of it was actaully thrown out by judges in your very own country - how embarrassing for you...dont you read the news?

I will let you carry on with your 'at all costs' mantra - im sure plenty more families are willing to lose loved ones just so America can prove it was right all along - even if takes 20 years.

WW's have absolutely no place in this discussion - Germany was attempting to conquer most of western europe - you telling me that Iraq has similar plans?

America and the Allies fought Germany becasue they were a direct threat - Iraq presents no such direct threat.

Part of bush's rationale for going into Iraq is that they had WMD's - well they didnt.

Another part of his reasoning was to stop a breeding ground for al-Qaeda - it was also proven that Iraq has little to do with this organisation.

NM

augustashark
03-29-2006, 05:29 PM
I gave you a couple of links that reported facts - indisputable facts.

You made yourself look an absolute ass by asking me how the Patriot act was unconstitutional - and part of it was actaully thrown out by judges in your very own country - how embarrassing for you...dont you read the news?

I will let you carry on with your 'at all costs' mantra - im sure plenty more families are willing to lose loved ones just so America can prove it was right all along - even if takes 20 years.

WW's have absolutely no place in this discussion - Germany was attempting to conquer most of western europe - you telling me that Iraq has similar plans?

America and the Allies fought Germany becasue they were a direct threat - Iraq presents no such direct threat.

Part of bush's rationale for going into Iraq is that they had WMD's - well they didnt.

Another part of his reasoning was to stop a breeding ground for al-Qaeda - it was also proven that Iraq has little to do with this organisation.

NM


:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah:

Left wing socialism at its best!

DIESELMAN
03-29-2006, 10:38 PM
This whole thread with all the back and forth only proves one thing.It doesn't matter what we say or do to the rest of the world no one will understand why we do what we do.No one country is perfect and I do believe that is not what we are striving for.We fought for our independence many years ago and we are fighting to keep it every day.We have our reasons for everything we do in this world whether its viewed by other countries as bad or good it doesn't matter.Those are our reasons for keeping our freedom intact and preserving our way of life that we fought for over 200 years ago.This is just an example-If we feel threatened by another country wanting to start a "nuclear program" when its obvious they've been secretly doing it anyway then we have every right to do what we can to protect ourselves from another irresponsible country getting their hands on enriched plutonium,what a lot of countries don't realize is when we are doing something to protect ourselves we are also protecting a lot of other countries as well.Yes our foreign policy sucks in a lot of ways,our politicians aren't perfect and we make mistakes on a grand scale in some situations.But the main point here is we are trying to make this a better world to live in whether anyone realizes that or not.A lot of countries are more then happy to let the world revolve around them in the hopes that no one ****s with them but when the day comes that they are messed with they all look to the one country who does give a rat's ass.The USA. Are we arrogant? opinionated? Yes to those and a lot of other names anyone is willing to call us.As far as I'm concerned I am proud to be an American and I am proud of what our country stands for..FREEDOM...I wouldn't have it any other way and I won't lose any sleep over anyone not liking us or disagreeing with us.As far as I'm concerned we do try and whoever doesn't like it can kiss my RED,WHITE and BLUE ASS!!!!!

augustashark
03-30-2006, 09:18 AM
This whole thread with all the back and forth only proves one thing.It doesn't matter what we say or do to the rest of the world no one will understand why we do what we do.No one country is perfect and I do believe that is not what we are striving for.We fought for our independence many years ago and we are fighting to keep it every day.We have our reasons for everything we do in this world whether its viewed by other countries as bad or good it doesn't matter.Those are our reasons for keeping our freedom intact and preserving our way of life that we fought for over 200 years ago.This is just an example-If we feel threatened by another country wanting to start a "nuclear program" when its obvious they've been secretly doing it anyway then we have every right to do what we can to protect ourselves from another irresponsible country getting their hands on enriched plutonium,what a lot of countries don't realize is when we are doing something to protect ourselves we are also protecting a lot of other countries as well.Yes our foreign policy sucks in a lot of ways,our politicians aren't perfect and we make mistakes on a grand scale in some situations.But the main point here is we are trying to make this a better world to live in whether anyone realizes that or not.A lot of countries are more then happy to let the world revolve around them in the hopes that no one ****s with them but when the day comes that they are messed with they all look to the one country who does give a rat's ass.The USA. Are we arrogant? opinionated? Yes to those and a lot of other names anyone is willing to call us.As far as I'm concerned I am proud to be an American and I am proud of what our country stands for..FREEDOM...I wouldn't have it any other way and I won't lose any sleep over anyone not liking us or disagreeing with us.As far as I'm concerned we do try and whoever doesn't like it can kiss my RED,WHITE and BLUE ASS!!!!!


Thank you sir! Well put.

83-Steelers-43
03-30-2006, 09:29 AM
This whole thread with all the back and forth only proves one thing.It doesn't matter what we say or do to the rest of the world no one will understand why we do what we do.No one country is perfect and I do believe that is not what we are striving for.We fought for our independence many years ago and we are fighting to keep it every day.We have our reasons for everything we do in this world whether its viewed by other countries as bad or good it doesn't matter.Those are our reasons for keeping our freedom intact and preserving our way of life that we fought for over 200 years ago.This is just an example-If we feel threatened by another country wanting to start a "nuclear program" when its obvious they've been secretly doing it anyway then we have every right to do what we can to protect ourselves from another irresponsible country getting their hands on enriched plutonium,what a lot of countries don't realize is when we are doing something to protect ourselves we are also protecting a lot of other countries as well.Yes our foreign policy sucks in a lot of ways,our politicians aren't perfect and we make mistakes on a grand scale in some situations.But the main point here is we are trying to make this a better world to live in whether anyone realizes that or not.A lot of countries are more then happy to let the world revolve around them in the hopes that no one ****s with them but when the day comes that they are messed with they all look to the one country who does give a rat's ass.The USA. Are we arrogant? opinionated? Yes to those and a lot of other names anyone is willing to call us.As far as I'm concerned I am proud to be an American and I am proud of what our country stands for..FREEDOM...I wouldn't have it any other way and I won't lose any sleep over anyone not liking us or disagreeing with us.As far as I'm concerned we do try and whoever doesn't like it can kiss my RED,WHITE and BLUE ASS!!!!!


:iagree: :cheers:

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 12:18 PM
This whole thread with all the back and forth only proves one thing.It doesn't matter what we say or do to the rest of the world no one will understand why we do what we do.No one country is perfect and I do believe that is not what we are striving for.We fought for our independence many years ago and we are fighting to keep it every day.We have our reasons for everything we do in this world whether its viewed by other countries as bad or good it doesn't matter.Those are our reasons for keeping our freedom intact and preserving our way of life that we fought for over 200 years ago.This is just an example-If we feel threatened by another country wanting to start a "nuclear program" when its obvious they've been secretly doing it anyway then we have every right to do what we can to protect ourselves from another irresponsible country getting their hands on enriched plutonium,what a lot of countries don't realize is when we are doing something to protect ourselves we are also protecting a lot of other countries as well.Yes our foreign policy sucks in a lot of ways,our politicians aren't perfect and we make mistakes on a grand scale in some situations.But the main point here is we are trying to make this a better world to live in whether anyone realizes that or not.A lot of countries are more then happy to let the world revolve around them in the hopes that no one ****s with them but when the day comes that they are messed with they all look to the one country who does give a rat's ass.The USA. Are we arrogant? opinionated? Yes to those and a lot of other names anyone is willing to call us.As far as I'm concerned I am proud to be an American and I am proud of what our country stands for..FREEDOM...I wouldn't have it any other way and I won't lose any sleep over anyone not liking us or disagreeing with us.As far as I'm concerned we do try and whoever doesn't like it can kiss my RED,WHITE and BLUE ASS!!!!!

Well that was quite a speech.

Lets get one thing straight - im not for one minute talking about what you, or anybody else on this board does - im purely talking about the actions of the American government.

The problems I highlighted regarding the Patriot Act, and its unconstitutional nature, are the very reason you should be asking exactly how much freedom you really have.

Do you think that someone who holds anti-war views should be spied on, should have their personal emails read just in case they are a secret terrorist?

What evidence did you find of Iraq starting a 'nuclear program' - or did you put it in inverted comma's because you know it to not be true?

If you know of any - please tell the UN inspectors who looked the country over from top to bottom and couldnt find evidence of any.

You make some grand claims about the United States and their backs-against-the-wall fight against dangerous countries with nuclear capability - what about North Korea?

Kim Jong-il continues to build a nuclear arsenal with absolutely no restrictions - I wonder why the States havent invaded that particular country?

We barely even hear any criticism.

Anyone know if they got any decent oil supplies there?


NM

augustashark
03-30-2006, 01:17 PM
Nigel, your friends at the aclu that you like so much have their own problems! But hey, their the source of good and correct information!


http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/nambla.html

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 01:27 PM
Nigel, your friends at the aclu that you like so much have their own problems! But hey, their the source of good and correct information!


http://www.warriorsfortruth.com/nambla.html

Are you disputing the fact that American judges overturned parts of the Patriot Act due to it being unconstitutional?

I quoted you more than one source.

Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

My guess is you will either fail to return to this thread - or post some more inane 'left wing socialist' stuff - anything but answer the question, eh Shark?

NM

augustashark
03-30-2006, 01:42 PM
Are you disputing the fact that American judges overturned parts of the Patriot Act due to it being unconstitutional?

I quoted you more than one source.

Why do you keep doing this to yourself?

My guess is you will either fail to return to this thread - or post some more inane 'left wing socialist' stuff - anything but answer the question, eh Shark?

NM


Just wanted to point out that one of your trusted sources has its own proplems! That's it.

83-Steelers-43
03-30-2006, 02:22 PM
Just wanted to point out that one of your trusted sources has its own proplems! That's it.

Speaks volumes. Not surprised though.

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 02:23 PM
Just wanted to point out that one of your trusted sources has its own proplems! That's it.

I didn't say it was a 'trusted source' - it was merely a source that reported something that was absolutely true.

You asked how the Patriot Act was unconstitutional - that site reported on judges overturning parts of the Act for that very reason.

I hope you at least learned something......

NM

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 02:25 PM
Speaks volumes. Not surprised though.

Im not surprised you have limited yourself to such short posts.

You tend to type utterly vague nonsense - the link was a to a source that proved my point - it is fact.

The Patriot Act was unconstitutional.

Its just a shame I have to point out stuff to some of you guys when its happening in your own country.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-30-2006, 02:32 PM
Im not surprised you have limited yourself to such short posts.

You tend to type utterly vague nonsense - the link was a to a source that proved my point - it is fact.

The Patriot Act was unconstitutional.

Its just a shame I have to point out stuff to some of you guys when its happening in your own country.

NM

You tend to type utterly liberal and anti-american nonsense while sitting behind your computer and acting like the little prissy, arrogant and brainwashed Brit that you are "Nigel".

Its just a shame I have to point that out to you when all you have to do is look in the mirror. I just never bothered stating it until your latest comments.

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 02:36 PM
You tend to type utterly liberal and anti-american nonsense while sitting behind your computer and acting like the little prissy, arrogant and smug Brit that you are "Nigel".

Its just a shame I have to point that out to you when all you have to do is look in the mirror.

Why dont we try sticking to facts.

I quoted a source to back up my points - all you seem capable of doing is repeating my name like a demented parrot - we all find our own levels I guess.

The thing is - you can accuse me of being anti-American (I am actually very anti-american government - not the same thing at all) - that is what we call an opinion.

Getting angry isn't going to solve any of these problems that face you.

As for the insults - i've heard it all before - sticks and stones...sticks and stones....

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-30-2006, 02:41 PM
Why dont we try sticking to facts.

I quoted a source to back up my points - all you seem capable of doing is repeating my name like a demented parrot - we all find our own levels I guess.

The thing is - you can accuse me of being anti-American (I am actually very anti-american government - not the same thing at all) - that is what we call an opinion.

Getting angry isn't going to solve any of these problems that face you.

As for the insults - i've heard it all before - sticks and stones...sticks and stones....

NM

You get your sources from the ACLU, that's all I need to know. After seeing that, that pretty much throws anything you state out the window in my book.

So wait, I'm not supposed to use your name when I refer to you? Sorry sir. Which leads back to my prissy, smug, arrogant Brit comment.

As for getting angry. I'm not. Simply replied to your comments with my "opinion". Oh, I have no doubt you've heard them all before. That doesn't surprise me one bit.

Your anti-american goverment. *claps*, good for you Nigel.....whoops, I mean fine sir.

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 02:49 PM
You get your sources from the ACLU, that's all I need to know.

So wait, I'm not supposed to use your name when I refer to you? Sorry sir. Which leads back to my prissy, smug, arrogant Brit comment.

As for getting angry. I'm not. Simply replied to your comments with my "opinion". Oh, I have no doubt you've heard them all before. That doesn't surprise me one bit.

Your anti-american goverment. *claps*, good for you Nigel.....whoops, I mean fine sir.

I dont see what is so difficult to grasp here.

I quoted a source (that you may or may not rate highly) that reported on a factual event.

I also included another link from cnn.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/01/26/patriot.act.ap/

Just in case you think they were making the whole thing up.

It is as plain as day that you are trying to get a rise out of me with your incessant Nigel this and Nigel that...you have been doing it just about every thread we participate in.

Deny it all you want - you are just making yourself look foolish.

The thing is - childish baiting, especially unsuccessful childish baiting, is far more of a reflection on you than it is me.

I have tried to keep this thread on the subject of the USA Government - but it seems you and Augustashark want to lower this to a slinging match for personal insults.

You havent added anything to this thread at all.

NM

83-Steelers-43
03-30-2006, 02:57 PM
You havent added anything to this thread at all.

What else is there to add? No matter what this country does your going to dislike it's goverment and in my opinion, it's people. Your a lost cause. A joke. It's not worth it. I just simply chime in on this thread when certain topics are brought up. The "ACLU" comment by Augustashark for example. I already have my opinon of you as I'm sure you do with me. I just find it's not worth holding a political debate with you because you have your anti-american mind set already, hence your a lost cause and a joke. It's a waste of time and energy.

There are hundreds of leaders on this globe that make this place a horrible planet. You don't bother focusing on them. They are not the reason for the mass killing and poverty. It's that nasty American goverment. We have leaders (dictators, drug lords, tyrants) that bleed their countries dry, but it's our fault. We have leaders that kill by the thousands and it's our goverments fault. What the f*%k has England done that has been so high and mighty? Yeah Nigel, we are the main reason for the world's troubles. I've heard it all before from your kind. It get's old. Open your eyes for once.

Once again, by no means am I stating that we are a perfect country. I don't recall any country on this globe that is perfect. But I by no means feel we are nearly as bad as you paint us to be. I'm done. Take care Nigel.

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 03:24 PM
What else is there to add? No matter what this country does your going to dislike it's goverment and in my opinion, it's people. Your a lost cause. A joke. It's not worth it. I just simply chime in on this thread when certain topics are brought up. The "ACLU" comment by Augustashark for example. I already have my opinon of you as I'm sure you do with me. I just find it's not worth holding a political debate with you because you have your anti-american mind set already, hence your a lost cause and a joke. It's a waste of time and energy.

There are hundreds of leaders on this globe that make this place a horrible planet. You don't bother focusing on them. They are not the reason for the mass killing and poverty. It's that nasty American goverment. We have leaders (dictators, drug lords, tyrants) that bleed their countries dry, but it's our fault. We have leaders that kill by the thousands and it's our goverments fault. What the f*%k has England done that has been so high and mighty? Yeah Nigel, we are the main reason for the world's troubles. I've heard it all before from your kind. It get's old. Open your eyes for once.

Our opinions of each other are irrelvant, which I have been saying since the start.

You would rather talk about aclu as a source, when my point is based around the unconstitutional nature of the Patriot Act.

You either have difficulty assimilating information, or you are being stubborn - I have stated many times that I have no respect for the UK government for going to war in Iraq - the purpose of this is not an attempt to make the UK look good at the expense of the USA.

Again, I have outlined this position already in this thread if you could actually be bothered to read instead of shooting off uninformed rubbish.

You also havent bothered to read the thread title - it is directly related to the Government of the United States, which is why we are focusing mainly on the USA - again why do I have to point this stuff out? - it obvious.

You spout one cliche after another - open my eyes you say...to what I ask?

Show me some sort of proof of your position on this - if you can't then you might aswell save it for bar talk.

NM

augustashark
03-30-2006, 03:36 PM
It's ok Nigel, Let it out, Let....it.....out.






http://www.markdroberts.com/images/Cry-Baby-Hate-T.jpg

Livinginthe past
03-30-2006, 03:49 PM
Proved my point shark..thanks

Outside of childish insults and pictures you have nothing..absolutely nothing.

I happen to think this is a very important topic, soldiers are dying every day and the best you can do is post pictures of crying babies.

You are an embarrasment.

NM

augustashark
03-30-2006, 04:05 PM
Proved my point shark..thanks

Outside of childish insults and pictures you have nothing..absolutely nothing.

I happen to think this is a very important topic, soldiers are dying every day and the best you can do is post pictures of crying babies.

You are an embarrasment.

NM


I think it's funny! Becuase you say that others are the name callers! Go back through the thread and I think you will see where you got upset and started name calling and acting like a baby (hence the photo)!

SteelerzGirl
03-30-2006, 04:22 PM
I think it's funny! Becuase you say that others are the name callers! Go back through the thread and I think you will see where you got upset and started name calling and acting like a baby (hence the photo)!

I thought it was funny, too, augusta! :rofl:

pucho58
03-30-2006, 06:19 PM
:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

Milkman
03-30-2006, 08:26 PM
Hasn't anyone stopped to think that maybe we are all just jacked into the "matrix" and none of this stuff is actually real?

Seriously though, everyone has their own views on the world. Whether they are a lefty or righty, everyone will only really choose to believe the information that "they" think is the right information.

And how can you actually "trust" any info that you have not personally "witnessed" for yourself?

Because some guy who is a supposed expert, leader of a nation, or a media personality doesn't mean they are telling the "truth".

So the question is...How do you know who is really to be trusted when trying to find the truth?

Debates can be fun and all, but you can't change someone else's views no matter how hard you try, when the other person feels strongly about their own views.

Life is too short...go have some fun or keep debating until your fingers start to cramp up.

:twocents:

DIESELMAN
03-31-2006, 04:18 AM
Well that was quite a speech.

Lets get one thing straight - im not for one minute talking about what you, or anybody else on this board does - im purely talking about the actions of the American government.

The problems I highlighted regarding the Patriot Act, and its unconstitutional nature, are the very reason you should be asking exactly how much freedom you really have.

Do you think that someone who holds anti-war views should be spied on, should have their personal emails read just in case they are a secret terrorist?

What evidence did you find of Iraq starting a 'nuclear program' - or did you put it in inverted comma's because you know it to not be true?

If you know of any - please tell the UN inspectors who looked the country over from top to bottom and couldnt find evidence of any.

You make some grand claims about the United States and their backs-against-the-wall fight against dangerous countries with nuclear capability - what about North Korea?

Kim Jong-il continues to build a nuclear arsenal with absolutely no restrictions - I wonder why the States havent invaded that particular country?

We barely even hear any criticism.

Anyone know if they got any decent oil supplies there?


NM

I know you're not talking about anyone on this board but you are having issues with the USA....and thats fine but when you have issues with our country then we the citizens are going to try and defend her whether we agree with everything our government does or not.
As far as the Patriot act goes "We the People" have several if not many resolutions going right now to challenge the Patriot act and yes there are many parts of that act that are unconstitutional but again that is one of our many freedoms that a lot of countries don't have and that is to challenge our very own government in what we don't see as good for ourselves as well as our country.Every new law or bill that gets voted on and passed is not perfect and it was out of extreme necessity that the Patriot Act was passed.Ever since 9/11 our sense of security has not been the same.To be the country that we are we have let in an overwhelming number of people in from so many different parts of the world.A big part of the problem there is that a lot of people coming into our country mean us a lot of harm.Call them "sleepers" call them what you will but in order to deal with this problem we have to resort to something to combat this problem.Is it the Patriot Act? I don't know but I am more then willing to give my government the benefit of the doubt and to sacrifice a few liberties to make sure 9/11 does not happen again.
As far as countries having nuclear programs I was mainly talking about Iran.There are a lot of countries that have nuclear programs and have signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty as it stands right now Iran has not signed it.There is a committee of countries that oversea who has and who is reponsible enough to have a nucler program and they are called the UN Nuclear watchdog among the members are the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France. As far as N. Korea goes the above mentioned group had several if not numerous talks with N.Korea to ensure that country was trustworthy or not."Invading" a country is not our only option as far as dealing with certain countries and it is the last on our list. Lastly as I have said before we did not have Desert Storm I because of oil we are not in Iraq right now because of oil.Everyone is so quick to pull the trigger and say we are in it for the oil.Then once again why have we not taken control of the oil industry and why are our gasoline prices going up every day? Freedom is not free it costs something every day and right now its American lives fighting for something the majority of the Iraqi people want very much.So don't sit there and say your countrymen have died for nothing that is disgracing their deaths and dishonoring why they were over here.I have a lot of respect for Mr. Blair,did you ever think that maybe he actually believes in whats going on in Iraq and he could not sit idly by.He is not Bush's "passive lap dog" he is the leader of a powerful nation and seen fit to grab his nuts and stand by the USA.

Livinginthe past
03-31-2006, 07:13 AM
I know you're not talking about anyone on this board but you are having issues with the USA....and thats fine but when you have issues with our country then we the citizens are going to try and defend her whether we agree with everything our government does or not.

That to me is one of the biggest problems so far - this attitude of defending your Government whether you really believe in what it is doing or not.
Everyone countries Government makes mistakes, but as they are representing the people then they should be answerable to the people - not just supported blindly.

As far as the Patriot act goes "We the People" have several if not many resolutions going right now to challenge the Patriot act and yes there are many parts of that act that are unconstitutional but again that is one of our many freedoms that a lot of countries don't have and that is to challenge our very own government in what we don't see as good for ourselves as well as our country.Every new law or bill that gets voted on and passed is not perfect and it was out of extreme necessity that the Patriot Act was passed.Ever since 9/11 our sense of security has not been the same.To be the country that we are we have let in an overwhelming number of people in from so many different parts of the world.A big part of the problem there is that a lot of people coming into our country mean us a lot of harm.Call them "sleepers" call them what you will but in order to deal with this problem we have to resort to something to combat this problem.Is it the Patriot Act? I don't know but I am more then willing to give my government the benefit of the doubt and to sacrifice a few liberties to make sure 9/11 does not happen again

The Patriot Act was an extremely dangerous piece of legislation, it gave the Government the excuse to push through a whole bunch of laws that they had wanted to implement for a long time.

You have to ask yourself two questions.

1. Why don't I feel safe in my own country? Is it because of some terrorist attacks that happened over 4 years ago? Or is it because your Government makes you feel constantly on edge and paranoid?

2. What does the USA stand for?

My understanding is that it stands for the Freedom of Speech, and the right to an opinion that may go against popular beliefs.
Well this is the kind of thing that is being outlawed by elements of the Patriot Act - the freedom to criticise the Government in your local bar, or over an email - without having it monitored by the powers that be.
Every personal freedom or liberty that you surrender to the Government - puts you a step closer to being like the countries you are fighting.

As far as countries having nuclear programs I was mainly talking about Iran.There are a lot of countries that have nuclear programs and have signed the Nuclear Proliferation Treaty as it stands right now Iran has not signed it.There is a committee of countries that oversea who has and who is reponsible enough to have a nucler program and they are called the UN Nuclear watchdog among the members are the United States, Russia, China, Britain and France. As far as N. Korea goes the above mentioned group had several if not numerous talks with N.Korea to ensure that country was trustworthy or not."Invading" a country is not our only option as far as dealing with certain countries and it is the last on our list.

I am pretty sure Iran will not agree to any sort of Nuclear limitation program - especially in the aftermath of Iraq.
The Iranian government feel that Iraq was helpless at the hands of the USA invasion because they did not have sufficient detterent (in the form of Nuclear weapons) - they are determined not to find themselves in a similar situation - I wouldnt be surprised if their program had accelerated since the Iraqi war.

As far as I know North Korea refuses to let any inspectors look at its nuclear facilities - how can they judge whether they are trustworthy or not?

Lastly as I have said before we did not have Desert Storm I because of oil we are not in Iraq right now because of oil.Everyone is so quick to pull the trigger and say we are in it for the oil.Then once again why have we not taken control of the oil industry and why are our gasoline prices going up every day?

For your information, the USA taken control of just about every profitable source of income in the Iraq. It is a well known fact that there were soldiers protecting Oil refineries from attacks, yet there was no soldiers guarding schools and hospitals.
American and UK companies have taken a huge percentage of the various contracts for 'rebuilding Iraq' - is this just a co-incidence? Its the same names everytime.

http://www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=9001

Your gas prices continue to rise because the Government sees absolutely no need to share its ill-gotten profits with the whole country.
It makes them look guilty if they cut the prices, plus they get to keep all the profit - a double victory.

Freedom is not free it costs something every day and right now its American lives fighting for something the majority of the Iraqi people want very much.So don't sit there and say your countrymen have died for nothing that is disgracing their deaths and dishonoring why they were over here.I have a lot of respect for Mr. Blair,did you ever think that maybe he actually believes in whats going on in Iraq and he could not sit idly by.He is not Bush's "passive lap dog" he is the leader of a powerful nation and seen fit to grab his nuts and stand by the USA.

The majority of Iraqi people want the USA and its army out of Iraq - there was a short honeymoon period after saddam was caught, but since then all the opinion polls have been very much against the continued presense of foreign troops.

My countrymen have indeed died for nothing - which is a crying shame.

Iraq is in a worse state than it ever was under Saddam - this is not opinion it is fact.

There is higher unemployment, less people have access to drinkable water, more people are homeless, less people have access to electricity...need I go on?

Somewhere between 35,000 and 100,000 Iraqi civilians have already lost their lives in this current war - how many more must die before we see an improvement?

Mr Blair went to Iraq to try and cement his legend, like most leaders he is an egotist (which is to be expected) - but he lied to the UK Government about the Iraqi's ability to launch a strike against the UK - this has all been proven in various court cases and investigations.

Lastly I'd like to thank you for keeping this debate civil, and free of personal attacks - its greatly appreciated.

NM

3 to be 4
03-31-2006, 07:37 AM
wow. awesome post LITP.
btw, i hate to say it. But i couldnt give a crap about the Iraqi people and their freedom. Its not worth losing any of our wonderful young men and women for. If that is the reason we are there its a horrible reason. But the reason keeps changing now doesnt it?

Livinginthe past
03-31-2006, 07:47 AM
wow. awesome post LITP.
btw, i hate to say it. But i couldnt give a crap about the Iraqi people and their freedom. Its not worth losing any of our wonderful young men and women for. If that is the reason we are there its a horrible reason. But the reason keeps changing now doesnt it?

Thanks 3 to be 4.

I dont think anyone is going to be too hard on you for wanting American servicemen and women to stay alive.

Its very true that they are there to serve and protect the country - its not true that they should be used as target practice so that Politicians and Businessmen can get rich.

The latest propoganda being released is that the new Iraqi 'security forces' have been stopping numerous terrorist attacks before they even happen - the truth is these poor people are under trained and are just as much an easy target as the USA troops currently stuck out there.

NM

DIESELMAN
03-31-2006, 09:24 AM
That to me is one of the biggest problems so far - this attitude of defending your Government whether you really believe in what it is doing or not.
Everyone countries Government makes mistakes, but as they are representing the people then they should be answerable to the people - not just supported blindly.

The Patriot Act was an extremely dangerous piece of legislation, it gave the Government the excuse to push through a whole bunch of laws that they had wanted to implement for a long time.

You have to ask yourself two questions.

1. Why don't I feel safe in my own country? Is it because of some terrorist attacks that happened over 4 years ago? Or is it because your Government makes you feel constantly on edge and paranoid?

2. What does the USA stand for?

My understanding is that it stands for the Freedom of Speech, and the right to an opinion that may go against popular beliefs.
Well this is the kind of thing that is being outlawed by elements of the Patriot Act - the freedom to criticise the Government in your local bar, or over an email - without having it monitored by the powers that be.
[B]Every personal freedom or liberty that you surrender to the Government - brings you a step closer to being like the countries you are fighting


I am pretty sure Iran will not agree to any sort of Nuclear limitation program - especially in the aftermath of Iraq.
The Iranian government feel that Iraq was helpless at the hands of the USA invasion because they did not have sufficient detterent (in the form of Nuclear weapons) - they are determined not to find themselves in a similar situation - I wouldnt be surprised if their program had accelerated since the Iraqi war.

As far as I know North Korea refuses to let any inspectors look at its nuclear facilities - how can they judge whether they are trustworthy or not?



For your information, the USA taken control of just about every profitable source of income in the Iraq. It is a well known fact that there were soldiers protecting Oil refineries from attacks, yet there was no soldiers guarding schools and hospitals.
American and UK companies have taken a huge percentage of the various contracts for 'rebuilding Iraq' - is this just a co-incidence? Its the same names everytime.

http://www.uslaboragainstwar.org/article.php?id=9001

Your gas prices continue to rise because the Government sees absolutely no need to share its ill-gotten profits with the whole country.
It makes them look guilty if they cut the prices, plus they get to keep all the profit - a double victory.



The majority of Iraqi people want the USA and its army out of Iraq - there was a short honeymoon period after saddam was caught, but since then all the opinion polls have been very much against the continued presense of foreign troops.

My countrymen have indeed died for nothing - which is a crying shame.

Iraq is in a worse state than it ever was under Saddam - this is not opinion it is fact.

There is higher unemployment, less people have access to drinkable water, more people are homeless, less people have access to electricity...need I go on?

Somewhere between 35,000 and 100,000 Iraqi civilians have already lost their lives in this current war - how many more must die before we see an improvement?

Mr Blair went to Iraq to try and cement his legend, like most leaders he is an egotist (which is to be expected) - but he lied to the UK Government about the Iraqi's ability to launch a strike against the UK - this has all been proven in various court cases and investigations.

Lastly I'd like to thank you for keeping this debate civil, and free of personal attacks - its greatly appreciated.

NM


I am more or less defending the USA and what she stands for as opposed to actually defending my government.Some people feel they are one in the same where as I feel they are separate entities.Our government is run by people who do make mistakes and I am very vocal in my community not just on a city level but state as well as federal levels too.I don't support my country blindly there are many ways citizens can have their voice heard and changes can and have been made.One of the biggest problems we face is the attitude that many Americans carry and that is "What I say won't matter and I can't change a thing" and that is not true if more Americans actually would take the time to look into what they can do they would be surprised.


1. Why don't I feel safe in my own country? Is it because of some terrorist attacks that happened over 4 years ago? Or is it because your Government makes you feel constantly on edge and paranoid?
I do feel safe in my country mainly because I have a CCW to protect myself and my family.Did the terrorist attack wake me up? Hell Yes!!! It just shows that nowdays no one country is safe from the mindless and insane actions of a group of people out for destruction.Let me ask you a question.What should the USA do to prevent 9/11 from happening again? Before you answer that take into consideration the endless and diverse group of people we have living in our country.What is our gov't supposed to do to prevent people from moving here from another country living here for 10 years be a part of our communities acting like they love the USA and then hijack a plane and crash it into a building killing thousands of innocent people?

The Patriot Act has been revised so many times since its inception it's hard to keep up with it.There have been many new bills proposed and passed to limit and curtail the Patriot Act some of these are the Protecting the Rights of Individuals Act of 2003,Benjamin True Patriot Act and the Security and Freedom Ensured Act there are more on the way and there is a lot of the Patriot Act that has been ruled unconstitutional so far.As far as being a step closer to being like the countries we are fighting.No offense but LMAO...sorry LITP but there is no way in hell thats going to happen.

Iraq being worse off?

This is from a previous thread here at SF...http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=5670
Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are under construction and 38 new schools have been built.

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Look around - the media isn't telling you much....
http://www.defenselink.mil/multimedia/

As far as Iran goes that was an excuse on their part to start a nuclear program.Tell me honestly deep down inside do you feel comfortable knowing Iran's history and of Middle Eastern countries tendencies to violence do you feel Iran should have a nuclear weapons gradeable program?
Korea is not trustworthy and it is a serious problem,there is a lot of posturing going on in the hopes N.Korea will back down.

This subject will be debateable for many years to come these are just my thoughts on everything and I do believe in whats going on in Iraq.I guess it depends on the newspaper you read and where everyone gets there information.There will always be biased and unbiased opinions on everything in the world.So heres to peace in the world and may the soldiers who have died there never be forgotten.....

3 to be 4
03-31-2006, 09:56 AM
This is from a previous thread here at SF...http://forums.steelersfever.com/showthread.php?t=5670
Did you know that 47 countries have reestablished their embassies in Iraq?

Did you know that the Iraqi government currently employs 1.2 million Iraqi people?

Did you know that 3100 schools have been renovated, 364 schools are under rehabilitation, 263 schools are under construction and 38 new schools have been built.

Did you know that Iraq's higher educational structure consists of 20 Universities, 46 Institutes or colleges and 4 research centers, all currently operating?

Did you know that the Iraqi Navy is operational?! They have 5-100-foot patrol craft, 34 smaller vessels and a naval infantry regiment.

Did you know that Iraq's Air Force consists of three operational squadrons, which includes 9 reconnaissance and 3 US C-130 transport aircraft (under Iraqi operational control) which operate day and night, and will soon add 16 UH-1 helicopters and 4 Bell Jet Rangers?

Did you know that Iraq has a counter-terrorist unit and a Commando Battalion?

Did you know that the Iraqi Police Service has over 55,000 fully trained and equipped police officers?

Did you know that there are 5 Police Academies in Iraq that produce over 3500 new officers each 8 weeks?

Did you know there are more than 1100 building projects going on in Iraq? They include 364 schools, 67 public clinics, 15 hospitals, 83 railroad stations, 22 oil facilities, 93 water facilities and 69 electrical facilities.

Did you know that 96% of Iraqi children under the age of 5 have received the first 2 series of polio vaccinations?

Did you know that 4.3 million Iraqi children were enrolled in primary school by mid October?

Did you know that there are 1,192,000 cell phone subscribers in Iraq and phone use has gone up 158%?

Did you know that Iraq has an independent media that consists of 75 radio stations, 180 newspapers and 10 television stations?

Did you know that the Baghdad Stock Exchange opened in June of 2004?

Look around - the media isn't telling you much....
QUOTE]


not one bit of that is worth us losing any of our young men and women. If we are under a direct threat from Iraq (as of 2003, not today, if we are today, thats due to the war) that is one thing. But the reason we went to war in Iraq had nothing to do with all those wonderful statistics about the quality of life of people that will still hate us anyway.
Ive seen some awful places in South Carolina that could use the help. Im sure in Louisiana and Mississippi too.

Hawk Believer
03-31-2006, 10:17 AM
Even though I am absolutely opposed to how and why this administration invaded Iraq, I really feel like we will need to maintain a strong presence there for many years. The die has been cast and if we leave right now, the vaccuum of power there will most likely lead to another toltalitarian leader after more civil war or invasion by Iran. And then we would have a whole nation of people who really hated the US and Iraq would likely become the actual hot bed of terrorism that W pretended it was before the war IMO.

Hopefully the Iraqis really are making the progress needed be self governing and stable. I don't feel like I can trust any source (left or right) enough to have a good sense of if progress is being made though.

It will be interesting to see what happens if Iraq does achieve a true democracy and the government doesn't want to be our lapdog...

Livinginthe past
04-01-2006, 12:45 AM
I am more or less defending the USA and what she stands for as opposed to actually defending my government.Some people feel they are one in the same where as I feel they are separate entities.Our government is run by people who do make mistakes and I am very vocal in my community not just on a city level but state as well as federal levels too.I don't support my country blindly there are many ways citizens can have their voice heard and changes can and have been made.One of the biggest problems we face is the attitude that many Americans carry and that is "What I say won't matter and I can't change a thing" and that is not true if more Americans actually would take the time to look into what they can do they would be surprised.

Here is where we agree - believe it or not I would be 100% with you in defending the USA and what she originally stood for.
The constitution is a wonderful thing, and I also am slightly envious of the way its in your nature to be so outwardly Patriotic.

Its tough to show pride in your own country in the UK - raising the St.George (English national flag) has become more associated with right wing Nazi's than your average citizen - its time we reclaimed our national identity back.
I still fly the flag, especially during national sporting events (soccer World Cup for example) - it would be great to see more people do likewise.

1. Why don't I feel safe in my own country? Is it because of some terrorist attacks that happened over 4 years ago? Or is it because your Government makes you feel constantly on edge and paranoid?
I do feel safe in my country mainly because I have a CCW to protect myself and my family.Did the terrorist attack wake me up? Hell Yes!!! It just shows that nowdays no one country is safe from the mindless and insane actions of a group of people out for destruction.Let me ask you a question.What should the USA do to prevent 9/11 from happening again? Before you answer that take into consideration the endless and diverse group of people we have living in our country.What is our gov't supposed to do to prevent people from moving here from another country living here for 10 years be a part of our communities acting like they love the USA and then hijack a plane and crash it into a building killing thousands of innocent people?

The answer to your question is that is a pretty hopeless situation trying to prevent the actions of people who are determined to take the lives of innocent people with attacks on 'soft targets'.
Correct me if I am wrong, but I dont believe that many of the exteremists who hijacked the planes on 9/11 were long term citizens of the USA?
I remember reading how the security measures that were in place at the time would have been sufficient if they had been correctly implemented - alot of these guys were red flagged, especially when they enrolled on plane flying courses - but due to a total lack of communication between America's security agencies the message to intercept them never made it to where it should have.

The Patriot Act has been revised so many times since its inception it's hard to keep up with it.There have been many new bills proposed and passed to limit and curtail the Patriot Act some of these are the Protecting the Rights of Individuals Act of 2003,Benjamin True Patriot Act and the Security and Freedom Ensured Act there are more on the way and there is a lot of the Patriot Act that has been ruled unconstitutional so far.As far as being a step closer to being like the countries we are fighting.No offense but LMAO...sorry LITP but there is no way in hell thats going to happen.

Im sure it has been revised many times - which is to the great credit of the legal system in America.
What I was suggesting we look at was the original intention behind the Act in the first place, what were the Govt trying to achieve?
I believe it was an attempted move towards a 'Big Brother' scenario where your every move would be monitored.
I am pretty sure that no amount of intercepted emails would have prevented 9/11.

You said that you were willing to sacrafice liberties and freedoms to ensure safety - to my mind sacraficing freedoms that are your birthright moves you closer to the sort of scenario that many suffer in places such as China and North Korea.

Dont get me wrong, im not saying that you are close to being in that siuation - just closer....and a little further away from being the country that founded the Declaration Of Independance.

I look at the list of stats - here are my thoughts.

1. I dont think that a national Navy and Airforce are any substitute for shelter, drinking water and electricity.

2. Most of the stats dont tell you what the figures were pre-invasion.

3. The Baghdad stock exchange sounds like a surreal idea - 100's of people are dying on the streets in a bloody civil war - I dont think the latest value of the New Iraqi Dinar is of too much importance.
That really is a case of putting the cart before the horse.

4. The defintion of 'fully trained' is highly subjective, when referring to the new Police and Security forces - 'fully' could mean they have received as much training as they are ever going to get - not that they are necessarily proficient.

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/apr2005/nf20050418_5596.htm

This subject will be debateable for many years to come these are just my thoughts on everything and I do believe in whats going on in Iraq.I guess it depends on the newspaper you read and where everyone gets there information.There will always be biased and unbiased opinions on everything in the world.So heres to peace in the world and may the soldiers who have died there never be forgotten.....

Fine words DIESELMAN.

Im with you 100% on this last paragraph.

To peace in the world - and never forgetting those who have sacraficed so much.

NM

Petesburgh66
04-03-2006, 01:27 AM
Litp, you need to learn the word RESPECT! If not for the US in WWI or WWII, England would be speaking German to this day! It really makes me sick when I hear anyone from England, France and Canada talk about the US in any way other than with respect. We have saved each and everyone of these countries at one time or another!

When the hell has the USA ever saved Canada? From what? Canada doesn't stick their noses in other country affairs. The only country that tried to invade Canada and lost was the USA. Go look up "1812" on google as I highly doubt this war is brought up in history classes in the USA. Please, do your home work before chanting USA, USA, USA like a bunch of mindless WWE sheep.

And leave Canada out of this. It's bad enough that our troops are getting killed in that hell hole called Afghanistan for no freaking good reason. The only reason why Canada is there is appease that moron (aka Bush).

And it's real pathetic of hearing Americans stating they are Canadians, even by wearing maple leafs on their backpacks or wearing Canadian clothing so they avoid the wrath of American bashing.

3 to be 4
04-03-2006, 08:14 AM
When the hell has the USA ever saved Canada? From what? Canada doesn't stick their noses in other country affairs. The only country that tried to invade Canada and lost was the USA. Go look up "1812" on google as I highly doubt this war is brought up in history classes in the USA. Please, do your home work before chanting USA, USA, USA like a bunch of mindless WWE sheep.

And leave Canada out of this. It's bad enough that our troops are getting killed in that hell hole called Afghanistan for no freaking good reason. The only reason why Canada is there is appease that moron (aka Bush).

And it's real pathetic of hearing Americans stating they are Canadians, even by wearing maple leafs on their backpacks or wearing Canadian clothing so they avoid the wrath of American bashing.


i cant believe a leftie like me is getting into this but.......here comes sarcastic reply-

right, im sure had Hitler defeated back Allied forces in Europe that Canada would be just fine today

augustashark
04-03-2006, 09:44 AM
When the hell has the USA ever saved Canada? From what? Canada doesn't stick their noses in other country affairs. The only country that tried to invade Canada and lost was the USA. Go look up "1812" on google as I highly doubt this war is brought up in history classes in the USA. Please, do your home work before chanting USA, USA, USA like a bunch of mindless WWE sheep.

And leave Canada out of this. It's bad enough that our troops are getting killed in that hell hole called Afghanistan for no freaking good reason. The only reason why Canada is there is appease that moron (aka Bush).

And it's real pathetic of hearing Americans stating they are Canadians, even by wearing maple leafs on their backpacks or wearing Canadian clothing so they avoid the wrath of American bashing.


:blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah: :blah::blah: :blah: :blah:


It's not my fault that you and your country are the little brother to the USA! Way to go, your attack on bush is right where I'd thought you would be!

What are you talking about with the Americans wearing maple leafs on their packpacks? Do you have photos or a link (not the aclu or cnn).

augustashark
04-03-2006, 09:49 AM
i cant believe a leftie like me is getting into this but.......here comes sarcastic reply-

right, im sure had Hitler defeated back Allied forces in Europe that Canada would be just fine today


Why don't you go back to your stupid ass "chink" thread!

You lean left!:redface: You know, most Americans are right handed therefore the left side is their weaker side!:sofunny:

Hawk Believer
04-03-2006, 05:25 PM
:

What are you talking about with the Americans wearing maple leafs on their packpacks? Do you have photos or a link (not the aclu or cnn).
Below is a link to a Washington Times article regarding Americans posing as Canadians. If you check out travel books or websites that discuss the issue of anit-Americanism and travel, most will suggest pretending to be Canadian and putting Maple Leafs on your gear.

The article describes someone who went into business selling kits to "Canadianize" yourself for travel abroad.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/20041208-122554-8534r.htm

Suitanim
04-03-2006, 05:28 PM
This has nothing to do with the War in Iraq...when I was planning my honeymoon in Europe in 1995, several travel agents told me about Americans doing this...

This thread has taken on a life of it's own, I see...and has wondered far from where I originally intended it to go.

Oh well....

BlacknGold Bleeder
04-03-2006, 06:14 PM
There are two sets of color in this world RED, WHITE, and BLUE and the other is BLACK and GOLD. I will always fly these colors and cannot imagine pretending to be Canadian, that would be like pretending to be a Patriot fan. That's just not right !!

3 to be 4
04-03-2006, 10:43 PM
Why don't you go back to your stupid ass "chink" thread!

You lean left!:redface: You know, most Americans are right handed therefore the left side is their weaker side!:sofunny:

you should know about using your right hand.

tim686
04-04-2006, 09:48 PM
Who really cares about what a bunch of camel jockeys think about this great nation and our people. It's jealousy. And as for Europe, they have been blowing each other up for centuries. France is nothing but a bunch spineless cowards. They haven't done anything since Napolean and he wasn't even French born

3 to be 4
04-04-2006, 10:49 PM
everything was going along fine until the effen Canadians ****ed it up for everybody

Suitanim
04-05-2006, 08:02 AM
Uh oh...ngreene, the "spokesperson for all Cannucks" (and also devoid of any semblance of a sense of humor), will not be pleased...

Petesburgh66
04-05-2006, 11:15 PM
right, im sure had Hitler defeated back Allied forces in Europe that Canada would be just fine today

Canada was involved in WWII and was the 4th strongest military at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II They did their part. So I am not sure what this has to do with the USA saving us.

83-Steelers-43
04-05-2006, 11:24 PM
LOL, is Canada even worth discussing? Let alone fighting over? Please, it's not worth it.

Livinginthe past
04-06-2006, 12:59 AM
Canada was involved in WWII and was the 4th strongest military at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II They did their part. So I am not sure what this has to do with the USA saving us.

Thats a pretty surprising statistic Petesburgh - ya learn something every day I guess.

What part of Canada do you live in?

I seemed to meet alot of people from Vancouver Island when I was travelling - is the place totally deserted most of the year round?

NM

3 to be 4
04-06-2006, 07:53 AM
Canada was involved in WWII and was the 4th strongest military at that time. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_Canada_during_World_War_II They did their part. So I am not sure what this has to do with the USA saving us.


yes, they did their part. it still doesnt change the fact without the US it wouldnt have meant a frickin thing. So US saved Canada's ass.

Suitanim
04-06-2006, 08:07 AM
I believe Iraq had the 4th "strongest" military in the World in 1991, and the US crushed them in what? 2 Weeks?

And their beer sucks, too!
http://accordionguy.blogware.com/Photos/2003/12/canucks/john_candy.jpg

3 to be 4
04-06-2006, 08:18 AM
who has the 4th largest number of troops in this war, Luxenburg with 312 or something?

it figures Canadiens have this inflated idea of their might. they DO have French running all around there dont they? one thing i love about Canda is the exchange rate. Back in '98, me and the Mrs spent a weekend in Montreal for about 80 bucks. And their classic radio stations are like listening to a Rutles album or "that thing You Do" because its all songs that were hits in Canada in the 60's that nobody has ever heard of.