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DIESELMAN
03-29-2006, 02:47 AM
By BARRY WILNER, AP Football Writer
March 28, 2006

ORLANDO, Fla. (AP) -- Before he retires as commissioner, Paul Tagliabue would like to see the NFL get closer to placing a team back in Los Angeles.

While Tagliabue plans to be gone from the league in July -- if the owners can get together and find a successor by then -- a solution to the situation doesn't figure to come that soon.

Two sites are being considered, in Anaheim and at the current location of the Los Angeles Coliseum, each with cost estimates at $800 million, considerably higher than previous price tags. Tagliabue is eager to see a franchise return to Los Angeles, which was abandoned by the Raiders and the Rams after the 1994 season -- then failed to come up with public financing for an expansion team, which went to Houston beginning in 2002.

The subject is being discussed this week at the NFL meetings, although it will be at the spring meetings in May that any concrete plans are developed.

"My guess is that we will be going forward with those presentations on behalf of the Coliseum and Anaheim so that we can make some decisions in Denver, to select one of the stadium projects and to go forward with the process of identifying a team and building a stadium," Tagliabue said.

Tagliabue has told the 32 team owners that unless a plan for Los Angeles is formulated soon, getting a team back into the nation's second-largest market won't occur by the end of the decade. For now, a six-man committee is handling the issue.

He admitted that the stadium situation in California is not a good one. The Oakland Raiders, San Francisco 49ers and San Diego Chargers all play in older ballparks and are seeking new homes -- with a large chunk of municipal funding. The league has the G3 fund that helps get stadiums built and has worked well in other cities.

But it has not gotten anywhere on the West Coast, south of Seattle.

"They don't have the best stadiums in California," Tagliabue said, "and we're trying to work on that. Yes, it will be a priority."

Another priority for Tagliabue is making sure the Saints get back to New Orleans. The league scheduled the Saints' first home game in the Louisiana Superdome since Hurricane Katrina hit last August for Sept. 24, the third week of the season. Tagliabue said he's been assured by Saints owner Tom Benson that the team is progressing well toward its return, and the commissioner will be in New Orleans next week to "identify progress made in critical areas."

Tagliabue also dismisses the chance of a regular-season game outside the United States this year. In 2005, Arizona hosted San Francisco in Mexico City, drawing 103,467, the largest crowd in NFL history. The Cardinals won 31-14 and Tagliabue called the game "an element of legitimacy."

Still, the NFL won't be going overseas in '06.

Tha rock
03-29-2006, 02:55 AM
raiders cant move again they built a bridge that goes to macafee now and it has bart drop you there now to, our contract is not up till 2027!

klick81
03-29-2006, 03:44 AM
I hope! That way the Steelers will be closer to my house at least once a year!

clevestinks
03-29-2006, 10:07 AM
I just dont want to see the league get any more watered down

Ambridge
03-29-2006, 03:11 PM
Another team in LA will end up just like the ones that have already left.

klick81
03-29-2006, 03:48 PM
I just dont want to see the league get any more watered down

Can you explain how?

Suitanim
03-29-2006, 04:00 PM
If the NFL adds a team in LA, they need to subtract a team somewhere else. 32 teams is good, the symmetry of scheduling is nice, and the league already has a shortage of quality QB's.

Mr. Clean
03-29-2006, 06:40 PM
The blame for the lack of NFL football in Los Angeles is primarily due to Paul Tagliabue.

Most fans on MBs will believe that football won't work in LA because the Radiers and Rams left. LA never really embraced the Raiders, so forget them. For several years, the Raiders had hundreds, if not thousands, of fans fly into LA from the Bay Area for the day to see the Raiders.

The Coliseum is a dump. It was a dump 30 years ago. Carroll Rosenbloom hated it and that is why he moved the team to Anaheim. The Rams had decent crowds for many years in Anaheim - after he died and his ditzy widow inherited the team. She drove it into the ground and turned off the fans, just like Irsay in Baltimore and Bidwill in St. Louis.

Then, she grabbed the money offered by St. Louis, broke the lease with Anaheim, and left.

Had the NFL expanded to Baltimore and St. Louis instead of Charlotte and Jacksonville, the Browns would likely had not left Cleveland and the Rams could not have fled to St. Louis.
Tagliabue desperately wanted Charlotte and got it. When the owners could not agree on either St. Louis or Baltimore, Tagliabue encouraged them to pick Jacksonville. Less than two years later, the Rams and Browns gobbled up the new stadia and relocation bonuses offered by those cities.

The Rams and Ratbirds won Super Bowls. Jacksonville can't sell out and they are in the NFL's smallest market.

A good stadium in LA would provide a good draw from the NFL. Right now, every stadium in California is a pile of junk.
The Chargers, Saints and Jag-offs would be the prime candidates to move to LA. An expansion team in LA would have to be matched with an expansion team in another city (Toronto?) to prevent two teams from having to play 16 consecutive weeks.
This would water down the talent base even more.

klick81
03-29-2006, 09:13 PM
I see what you meant now. Seems logical.

HburgXL06
03-29-2006, 11:40 PM
How big is Jacksonville in comparison to other major market teams? I know Pittsburgh technically is somewhat on the smaller side of a city that can host a team but that is made up by an insanely loyal fanbase that supports the team through thick and thin. What is the least amount of money/fan support needed by a team to sustain itself in a city/market? Are there any other teams in the NFL that have similarly sized markets to Jacksonville that are doing better than them? New Orleans I believe has too loyal of a fanbase to leave (unless lack of money because of low population in the area or the inability to fix the superdome becomes an issue). IMO, New Orleans as a city is doomed. It's sinkin........can't fix that. When you build a city underwater it is only a matter of time before it becomes uninhabitible (sp?). I could be wrong though, Venice is still surviving and it's hundreds of years old. California it would seem is an already crowded market in terms of NFL teams. Two teams are put less than ten miles from each other surrounded only by an oversized lake. The other team is so close to the border that churros can be sold with the advertising "freshly made in Mexico." LA is a fickle city. Just look at what it is known for and you see that for them one thing can be hot today and cold tomorrow. This isn't the kind of environment you want to raise an NFL team in. Think exagerated bengals situation: when losing you can't sell seats for your life, when winning seats are oversold and fans brag it's the best thing ever. Problem is, if you go the route of the expansion team a la Houston texans there isn't gonna be many wins let alone a winning season for a good while and fans aren't gonna come out to support that type of team. Not many states in this country can support one team let alone four. From reading here I can only think of two options: 1) If Jacksonville is strugglin move them to LA 2) If the subject of an expansion team comes up and another team is needed to balance the books possible other market could be Portland, OR; but that just thins the talent out even more as someone else said. Just some thoughts. Peace.

BuFu

PisnNapalm
03-30-2006, 05:10 AM
Move and rename the Saints to LA. Do not start up a new team. 32 teams are too many as is.

Mr. Clean
03-30-2006, 06:47 AM
Jacksonville is the second smallest metropolitan area of any NFL city. Metropolitan Jax has less than 1 million people and a small business/corporate community. Norfolk, VA, Columbus, San Antonio, Salt Lake City and Portland - all are bigger than Jax. Jax is just a few hours away from Atlanta and Tampa as well.

Green Bay is the smallest, but Green Bay does have Milwaukee - which is about the 27th or 28th biggest market - and the entire state of Wisconsin. That enables the Packers to not just survive, but thrive.

LA is fickle and a bunch of bandwagon jumpers. Most warm weather cities are fickle. It the team stinks, you can go do something else outside. Why LA? The LA-Anaheim area has 16 million people - more than all of Pennsylvania. Having a team in LA that can sell out would enable the NFL to wring more money out of the networks, and that's what it's all about.

The number of teams in California is irrelevant. The Bay Area has about five and a half million people which is more than enough to support both the 49ers and Raiders. Sacramento is only 80 miles north of there and it has two million people.

It is difficult to build stadia there because of the cost of the land and because taxes are through the roof already.

I don't care one way or the other if LA ever sees the NFL again, and I?m not sure the owners care that much either.
It is a Tagliabue issue.

Expansion to two more cities - LA and one other city - might happen if a stadium is built in LA. Why? The expansion fee charged for a team in LA would be huge. Bob McNair paid $600 million for the Texans. Owners love money. Two more teams might earn a combined expansion fee of around $1 billion and they would not have to share it with the players.

Suitanim
03-31-2006, 04:32 PM
Last I heard, it's looking like the LA Buffalo's.

schoondog
04-01-2006, 06:44 PM
So if L.A. gets a new team in what city will that team relocate to in 2015?

SteelCityMan786
04-02-2006, 09:37 AM
Move The Sexboats they're probably no where near getting a new home

RoethlisBURGHer
04-02-2006, 01:46 PM
California doesn't need another team.The fan bases are already divided by the Chargers,Raiders,and 49ers so the new team wouldn't have a fan base.Not to mention so much of California is residents transplanted from somewhere else those people already are fans of a team from thier original area.

A team will not survive in Los Angeles.

Suitanim
04-02-2006, 02:10 PM
I just read an article about this...I believe the top team makes about $280 million a year, and the lowest revenue team makes about $150 million a year. The Stelers made better money than their market would dictate...I think they were right in the middle. There were some bigger cities that were doing far worse.

I threw the damned magazine out, though.

HburgXL06
04-02-2006, 03:42 PM
Move The Sexboats they're probably no where near getting a new home

Who are the "sexboats?"

Last I heard, it's looking like the LA Buffalo's.

Are there rumors of the Buffalo Bills moving to LA? When did those start up? I haven't heard anything.

BuFu

Suitanim
04-02-2006, 03:46 PM
Sexboats = Vikings

The Buffalo rumor was just speculation...if I post any rumors, it's always tongue in cheek...

HburgXL06
04-02-2006, 04:32 PM
Sexboats = Vikings

The Buffalo rumor was just speculation...if I post any rumors, it's always tongue in cheek...

Wow did they earn that nickname just this year?

Oh..ok I didn't realize that was sarcasm...my bad. But for real it would seem that moving the Jacksonville team might be the best option if they want a team in LA so badly.

BuFu

Ambridge
04-02-2006, 05:38 PM
Sexboats = Vikings

The Buffalo rumor was just speculation...if I post any rumors, it's always tongue in cheek...


I always chuckle when I see that commercial on the NFL Network where they have fans speculating on their teams success for the upcoming season and the one Minnesota guy says:

"Now that Moss is gone it's gonna be smooth sailing for the Vikings". :rofl:

I heard the grumblings about the Bills moving as well......supposedly Ralph Wilson is probing for a new stadium.

Stlrs4Life
04-02-2006, 06:14 PM
Don't worry, in a couple of more years, The Shit Stains will be moving out there.

Stlrs4Life
04-02-2006, 06:15 PM
I always chuckle when I see that commercial on the NFL Network where they have fans speculating on their teams success for the upcoming season and the one Minnesota guy says:

"Now that Moss is gone it's gonna be smooth sailing for the Vikings". :rofl:

I heard the grumblings about the Bills moving as well......supposedly Ralph Wilson is probing for a new stadium.


I don't foresee Buffalo ever moving. There fan base is pretty good up there.

Suitanim
04-02-2006, 07:11 PM
They used to ay the same about the Browns...

Don't fool yourself...the Bills will move if the paycheck is right...

Petesburgh66
04-02-2006, 11:54 PM
I don't foresee Buffalo ever moving. There fan base is pretty good up there.

Not really. Some of the games were blacked out during the last few years in the Toronto market as they were not filling up the stadium.

HburgXL06
04-03-2006, 12:59 PM
Haven't the Bills been halfway decent/gettin better these past few years? How old is their stadium? I haven't heard of them being amazing lately but at the same time I haven't heard about them being horrible either. When is this LA deal speculated to go down (if it does at all)?

BuFu

j-dawg
04-03-2006, 01:18 PM
no one in los angeles wants an nfl team! we have our home teams to root for. there's a reason the raiders and rams left... you'd think the nfl would realize this!

Ambridge
04-03-2006, 01:41 PM
Haven't the Bills been halfway decent/gettin better these past few years? How old is their stadium? I haven't heard of them being amazing lately but at the same time I haven't heard about them being horrible either. When is this LA deal speculated to go down (if it does at all)?

BuFu


Ralph Wilson Stadium is around 30yrs old.
Where does one start with the Bills?? Injuries, coaching, general manager, poor QB play and a fossilized owner have all taken their toll.

Mr. Clean
04-03-2006, 06:05 PM
There were some rumors floating around a few years ago that claimed Tagliabue wanted to see the Bills move to Toronto. Toronto would be a terrific market - five million plus live in the Toronto area, and it's the most prosperous part of Canada.

Ralph Wilson Stadium opened in 1973. Art Rooney warned him that the place had too many seasts (almost 80,000). The Bills have a good fan base but it isn't easy for them to sell out 80,000 seats and the Western New York economy hasn't been that great for many years.

My guess is that somebody will move to LA - the Chargers, the Jaguars or the Saints, in that order. Of course, I could be wrong.

Suitanim
04-03-2006, 06:32 PM
no one in los angeles wants an nfl team! we have our home teams to root for. there's a reason the raiders and rams left... you'd think the nfl would realize this!

Doesn't matter...the NFL wants an NFL team in the second biggest market in the US.

HburgXL06
04-03-2006, 10:30 PM
There were some rumors floating around a few years ago that claimed Tagliabue wanted to see the Bills move to Toronto. Toronto would be a terrific market - five million plus live in the Toronto area, and it's the most prosperous part of Canada.

Ralph Wilson Stadium opened in 1973. Art Rooney warned him that the place had too many seasts (almost 80,000). The Bills have a good fan base but it isn't easy for them to sell out 80,000 seats and the Western New York economy hasn't been that great for many years.

My guess is that somebody will move to LA - the Chargers, the Jaguars or the Saints, in that order. Of course, I could be wrong.


Just for perspective, how many seats does Heinz field have? Is it more or less than Three Rivers had? Who has the largest and smallest stadiums in the league and how well do they do as far as pullin in a profit?

How profitable would the Toronto market be? The CFL has been there for years but as far as I've heard it's not overly popular because the Canadians are too busy with hockey and curling. It would be interestin to see a team in that area and see how strong the Canadian market and interest is. Peace.

BuFu

j-dawg
04-04-2006, 01:22 AM
Doesn't matter...the NFL wants an NFL team in the second biggest market in the US.

yeah... being from cleveland, it's disappointing to watch a team leave. If it does happen, whatever team that comes here will be leaving their fans behind... 'cause no one here wants a team and there won't be a parade to celebrate their arrival...

MasterOfPuppets
04-04-2006, 01:26 AM
Doesn't matter...the NFL wants an NFL team in the second biggest market in the US.
hell they've already lost 2 teams,so that should tell the nfl something about LA....

Mr. Clean
04-04-2006, 04:20 PM
For the record, Heinz Field has about 64,000 seats. It could have been built with more seats, but either the money wasn't there to do it or Dan Rooney wanted to keep the total number down so as to preserve the demand and the sellout string of over 33 years. the Steelers succeed because the Rooneys are smart businesspeople. They have diversified investments. Steeler merchandise is always a big seller (profits from the sales by NFL properties go to all teams). The club seats and boxes are sold out. They make a good sum of money from local preseason TV and radio broadcasts.

Most teams' stadia have a capacity of 70,000 or less. It's tough to fill 80,000 seats week after week. The Redskins do it, but they are in a huge and growing market and for a long time, the Redskins were the only game in town in Washington (to speak of).

How many teams Los Angeles lost is irrelevant. One could have used that argument against Cleveland. Cleveland lost the Rams in 1945 and the Browns in 1995. So, Cleveland lost two teams (for very different reasons). The Los Angeles Rams have the single game highest attendance record in the NFL. Frequently in the late 1950s through the mid 1960s the Rams drew crowds of over 100,000 to the Coliseum.

The Raiders were never LA's team. Davis realized it even when the other owners offered to help him build a stadium in the LA area in the early-mid 1990s. The Rams left because-
Madame Ram ruined the team,
Madame Ram hated Anaheim Stadium,
Madame Ram took the fortune offered by a desperate St. Louis to get back into the NFL.

I don't care if LA gets a team or not. The NFL braintrust does. So, one way or another, the NFL will return there.

The NFL is popular in Canada, at least as popular and probably more popular than the CFL. Toronto gets the Buffalo TV stations on cable and the Bills have a following there. Toronto is big enough and wealthy enough to support an NFL team. They also have a good enough stadium in the Skydome to host an NFL team. Toronto is close enough to many NFL cities to minimize any potential travel problems.

Still - it'll be the Jaguars, Saints or Chargers who get the LA market.

HburgXL06
04-04-2006, 06:36 PM
What does the Skydome host now? How strong are the Chargers' following in San Diego that they are a risk to go to LA? Thanks for the info.

BuFu

HburgXL06
04-05-2006, 12:00 PM
Just thought about this: Why doesn't Las Vegas have an NFL team? Or any professional team for that matter. I can imagine they have all the necessary venues for such events and knowin how much gamblin goes on in that town it would seem people would clamor to follow the teams stats, etc. Just curious to know. Peace.

BuFu

Mr. Clean
04-05-2006, 04:37 PM
The Chargers' following, like most Sun Belt cities, is excellent when they are winning, and so-so when the team is struggling.
they draw well enough to stay in San Diego, which is (amazingly) a small market (taken unto itself). Alex Spanos, Chargers' owner, wants out of Qualcomm Stadium, which is apparently falling apart (it's around 40 years old).

The Skydome hosts the MLB Blue Jays and the CFL Argonauts. There have been a few NFL exhibition games there. the retractable roof is a big plus.

Las Vegas is the fastest growing metro area in the US, but one not quite big enough yet to host a pro sports team. In 10 or 15 years, it will be big enough. The gambling industry will scare away any pro sports league who wants to expand.
Even without betting on games played there, the legal gambiling would be an all to easy temptation to young men with lots of money.

HburgXL06
04-05-2006, 04:57 PM
The Chargers' following, like most Sun Belt cities, is excellent when they are winning, and so-so when the team is struggling.
they draw well enough to stay in San Diego, which is (amazingly) a small market (taken unto itself). Alex Spanos, Chargers' owner, wants out of Qualcomm Stadium, which is apparently falling apart (it's around 40 years old).

The Skydome hosts the MLB Blue Jays and the CFL Argonauts. There have been a few NFL exhibition games there. the retractable roof is a big plus.

Las Vegas is the fastest growing metro area in the US, but one not quite big enough yet to host a pro sports team. In 10 or 15 years, it will be big enough. The gambling industry will scare away any pro sports league who wants to expand.
Even without betting on games played there, the legal gambiling would be an all to easy temptation to young men with lots of money.

I'm surprised that San Diego is such a small market since it is somewhat of a large city. If San Diego wants to hold on to their team (do they?) why haven't they replaced such an old and broken down stadium? Was the Skydome the place used durin the World Baseball Classic this year? If so I can see why it is a good option of a team and what a nice stadium it really is. I'm guessin you mean the teams will be scared away not by the gamblin industry for other people but for their own players who could be drawn in and lose all their money, have nothin, and then not be able to play well for the team.

Suitanim
04-05-2006, 06:09 PM
It's the SoCal mentality that kills football more than anything else. You'd THINK that out of 15 million people or whatever, they could find a few hundred thousand die-hards, but everything is laid-back and casual out there, plus the NFL competes with so many other diversions that you just will never see a rabid NFL fanbase in LA...but there will be another team there regardless.

j-dawg
04-05-2006, 06:27 PM
you're so right suit... i watch the browns out here at this place called the hollywood billiards club.. it's a huge warehouse and it's got about forty big screen televisions throughout the entire place... the place is packed every sunday with fans from every team in the NFL... and none of 'em want an L.A. team... other than to root against if their team comes here to play 'em...

Ohio Steeler
04-05-2006, 07:28 PM
If the NFL adds a team in LA, they need to subtract a team somewhere else. 32 teams is good, the symmetry of scheduling is nice, and the league already has a shortage of quality QB's.


I agree and that why I belive it will be a relocated team that ends up in LA say the New Orleans Saints or the Minnesota Vikings .

HburgXL06
04-05-2006, 07:44 PM
I agree and that why I belive it will be a relocated team that ends up in LA say the New Orleans Saints or the Minnesota Vikings .

Just wonderin, what makes you think the Vikings will move?

BuFu

Petesburgh66
04-05-2006, 10:47 PM
What does the Skydome host now? How strong are the Chargers' following in San Diego that they are a risk to go to LA? Thanks for the info.

BuFu

Skydome is called Rogers Centre. For baseball, the stadium can hold just over 50,000. To small for an NFL stadium.

How profitable would the Toronto market be? The CFL has been there for years but as far as I've heard it's not overly popular because the Canadians are too busy with hockey and curling. It would be interestin to see a team in that area and see how strong the Canadian market and interest is. Peace.

BuFu

Toronto is the 4th largest market in North America. When the Blue Jays were winning back to back world series, they broke MLB attendance records at that time for a season. As for the CFL, it is more popular out west. The problem in Toronto is that the CFL really screwed up in the 1980s by blacking out games. People just tuned into the NFL on TV instead. Hence, they lost a generation of CFL fans in Toronto. Most people in Toronto consider the CFL as a second tier league. It's a shame considering the CFL is older the NFL.

With 8 home games, the NFL would work here. Most of the largest corporations are in the Toronto area. The population base is here (over 5 million in the Greater Toronto Area). The biggest problem has been the Canadian dollar.

Mr. Clean
04-06-2006, 04:01 PM
Suppose the NFL wanted to come to Toronto - would the city come up with the money for a football-only stadium? I bet they would, but that's just my opinion.

HburgXL06
04-06-2006, 04:18 PM
If Toronto wants to join the NFL and can bring up the money and interest I'm all for it.

BuFu

Petesburgh66
04-06-2006, 11:17 PM
Suppose the NFL wanted to come to Toronto - would the city come up with the money for a football-only stadium? I bet they would, but that's just my opinion.

The city of Toronto has been bitching and whining for money from the federal government for years. They don't have money to spend on a stadium. They have roads and the subway system to fix up first. Rogers Centre/Skydome cost $650 million to build and that was 17 years ago.

Mr. Clean
04-07-2006, 05:18 PM
You have a point - most if not all cities have more important things to spend money on than a stadium/ballpark/arena, but it seems that the money usually is found to build the stadium.

The Vikings signed a deal with a suburban Minneapolis county to build a new retractable roof stadium. Unless it falls apart, they won't move.

Politics is the reason San Diego has not replaced Qualcomm. The city of San Diego is bigger than Pittsburgh, but the metropolitan area is not. Another factor is the cost. A new stadium isn't cheap anywhere, but folks in Southern California can tell you better than I about the cost of land. Building a new football stadium anywhere in Southern California or the Bay Area will cost a lot more than almost anywhere else but New York.

The truth is, the NFL has thrived without a team in Los Angeles and the NFL does not really need a team there for the league to be profitable and to grow (in popularity and in revenues).

Looking back on it, the Rams should have worked for a new stadium back in the late 1960s or early 1970s. The Rams always had a following until their last few years when Madame Ram Frontiere gobbled up the money from St. Louis. Carroll Rosenbloom hated the Coliseum. The Rams could draw 65,000 or 70,000 and not sell out, which always meant a home blackout. The Raiders moving into LA made it worse. For all the years the Raiders played in LA, all their Monday Night games were on the road. They didn't sell out, either.

Without a team - and the possibility of a blackout - Los Angeles gets a full slate of games on TV each week. If Angelenos want to see the NFL they can go to San Diego. Most NFL fans don't miss a team in LA and couldn't care less if the NFL ever returns. It's Tagliabue and his allies who want a team there.