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SteelCityMom
11-28-2010, 03:48 PM
It was a win, and it feels good to be 8-3...but that was a harsh game. Should have been won before half-time.

So many goats to go around. Lewis and Gay come to mind first though.

Fire Arians
11-28-2010, 03:48 PM
chris kemoeatu and his 50000 holding calls

a lot of those ref calls were bs considering i saw a shitload of holding from buffalo's line but it wasn't ever called

NYC_Steeler
11-28-2010, 03:53 PM
Camel dung awards to: Kemo, Lewis, Scott, Fox for their stupid penalties at the worst moment imaginable.

Fire Haley
11-28-2010, 03:54 PM
I'll take an ugly win anyday!....I'm drunk as a skunk and planning on getting drunker


Squeeze-em is my hero

joeyssteelcurtain
11-28-2010, 03:55 PM
I say the hole team sucked today besides our kicker hope we can get better before next week

plenewken
11-28-2010, 03:57 PM
I say the hole team sucked today besides our kicker hope we can get better before next week

Not the defense. They saved our @ss once again. Poor execution by the offense, too many penalties by the OL almost cost us the game.

BillsfanAZ
11-28-2010, 03:58 PM
I say the hole team sucked today besides our kicker hope we can get better before next week

I would say your patchwork Oline was the problem. Scott is terrible, Bills cut him. Kyle Williams has been playing like that all season. The Bills Oline was decimated by injuries last year so I feel your pain.

SteelCityMom
11-28-2010, 04:00 PM
I'll take an ugly win anyday!....I'm drunk as a skunk and planning on getting drunker


Squeeze-em is my hero


I'm right behind you Killer. 3 shots down and probably a bunch more to go.

I'm giving an extra game ball to my Mom for watching my daughter on most gamedays. Without her my buzz would not be possible. :chuckle:

lionslicer
11-28-2010, 04:01 PM
Not the defense. They saved our @ss once again. Poor execution by the offense, too many penalties by the OL almost cost us the game.

I thought the defense was on the bad side, Troy just happened to show up late in the game to save the defenses ass to help save the game.

Fire Haley
11-28-2010, 04:01 PM
I take back everything bad I said about squeeze-em - no way Reed makes all those kicks.

SteelCityMom
11-28-2010, 04:01 PM
Not the defense. They saved our @ss once again. Poor execution by the offense, too many penalties by the OL almost cost us the game.

Well, except for Lewis and his HORRIBLE penalty. Troy really bailed his ass out on that one.

The D played pretty well for most of the game though, I'll give you that.

theplatypus
11-28-2010, 04:02 PM
Half a dozen holding calls nearly cost us that game.

BillsfanAZ
11-28-2010, 04:04 PM
I thought the defense was on the bad side, Troy just happened to show up late in the game to save the defenses ass to help save the game.

The Defense did a good job against the run. The Bills WR's helped them out by dropping a ton of passes including two long passes in OT.

BillsfanAZ
11-28-2010, 04:05 PM
Half a dozen holding calls nearly cost us that game.

What was bad about the officials, they called the LG for holding on Williams for having his hand outside the shoulder pads once which was BS but then didnt call one in OT when he had Williams in a head lock on a run play.

cloppbeast
11-28-2010, 04:07 PM
What was bad about the officials, they called the LG for holding on Williams for having his hand outside the shoulder pads once which was BS but then didnt call one in OT when he had Williams in a head lock on a run play.

Are you serious dude? :doh:

I guess you didn't think that was pass interference against Miller in OT - just one example.

SH-Rock
11-28-2010, 04:09 PM
The D was just amazing today. Sure they gave up 16 points, but come on you got to hand it to them being clutch at important times.

The Offense, I don't know what to say. Mendy was really good, except the fumble and Big Ben wasn't playing as good as he is supposed to due to the injury. Hines Ward really showed that he still has some life in him.

Stu Pidasso
11-28-2010, 04:09 PM
WHY THE HELL IS WILLIAM GAY STILL A STEELER?!?!?!?!?

casteeler
11-28-2010, 04:10 PM
So our secondary is good? I say with the exeption of Troy the entire secondary sucks plus how predictable was the offense? 1st down run 2nd down run 3rd pass, i love the run but mix it up alittle and HEY BEN!!! Throw the ball

BillsfanAZ
11-28-2010, 04:11 PM
Are you serious dude? :doh:

I guess you didn't think that was pass interference against Miller in OT - just one example.

Sure it was. There were a lot of missed calls. There could have been more holding calls. There could have been PI calls on both teams.

ZoneBlitzer
11-28-2010, 04:13 PM
I've said it all year and even pointed it out for the Raiders game.

THE OFFENSE SUCKS. They have SUCKED for awhile now. Why do they suck? Because they struggle to play complimentary football to what their defense is doing. What is that you say?

Well when you're pitching a shut out in the first half and come away with a measly 3 points on a 14 play drive, you know there are problems. The offense doesn't manage situations very well. They don't have the killer instinct to get up on teams and put them away. There was a case in point in that Raider game where the offense basically threw away prime real estate on several occasions in exchange for NADA. In the Raider game was 21 to 3 for the longest time - too long. They should have at least 45+ points in that game given their possessions. Now we see them doing the same in this game. Squandering ball possession for either nothing or little points. So long as the offense is stinking the joint out on a weekly basis, this team will go nowhere. That's right I said a weekly basis. They flat out SUCK. And have SUCKED for weeks. I don't care what the stats say or the results. They are managing to get by with this handicap but sooner or later it is going to cost them. The paltry 3 points in the second half nearly did them in today.

cloppbeast
11-28-2010, 04:15 PM
Sure it was. There were a lot of missed calls. There could have been more holding calls. There could have been PI calls on both teams.

There could have been more holding calls, you're right. But the steelers were called a bunch of times, a couple bogus like the one that took away a Mendenhall 40-yard run. But I didn't remember a single holding call against the Bills - and they certainly held. I saw it all game. The officials I think bet on the Bills.

Big D
11-28-2010, 04:18 PM
my main complaint is once again bruce arians. Piss poor predicatable play calling. This guy needs to go

Tulsa
11-28-2010, 04:19 PM
Steelers penalized 10 times for 107 yards. Buffalo 4 for 20.

BillsfanAZ
11-28-2010, 04:19 PM
There could have been more holding calls, you're right. But the steelers were called a bunch of times, a couple bogus like the one that took away a Mendenhall 40-yard run. But I didn't remember a single holding call against the Bills - and they certainly held. I saw it all game. The officials I think bet on the Bills.

I am sure there are lots of holding calls that do not get called. Seems they watch for the holds against defensive players that get into the backfield and call the stuff that can go either way and miss everything else unless it is obvious. I am sure they were watching for holds on Harrison.

steeltheone
11-28-2010, 04:21 PM
WHY THE HELL IS WILLIAM GAY STILL A STEELER?!?!?!?!?

Because we have failed in drafting ANY suitable replacements...ANY....we are still playing with all Bill Cowhers players.

cloppbeast
11-28-2010, 04:22 PM
My main complaint is against our so-called franchise quarterback. I know the o-line stinks, but he makes them look really bad by refusing to just get rid of the damn ball. I can't see the whole field, maybe the WRs aren't getting open, but at some point Ben just has to pull the trigger. He's a big time player making millions of dollars, he should be accurate enough to put it in tight windows.

joeyssteelcurtain
11-28-2010, 04:23 PM
My main complaint is against our so-called franchise quarterback. I know the o-line stinks, but he makes them look really bad by refusing to just get rid of the damn ball. I can't see the whole field, maybe the WRs aren't getting open, but at some point Ben just has to pull the trigger. He's a big time player making millions of dollars, he should be accurate enough to put it in tight windows.

wells said

MattsMe
11-28-2010, 04:23 PM
The refs. They, on orders from Goodell, are killing my love for the game.

BillsfanAZ
11-28-2010, 04:24 PM
My main complaint is against our so-called franchise quarterback. I know the o-line stinks, but he makes them look really bad by refusing to just get rid of the damn ball. I can't see the whole field, maybe the WRs aren't getting open, but at some point Ben just has to pull the trigger. He's a big time player making millions of dollars, he should be accurate enough to put it in tight windows.

He made some plays by keeping the play alive but your right, when the QB buys time it is harder for the Oline to hold their blocks.

headymessman86
11-28-2010, 04:30 PM
Don't forget - the Bills had the Ratbirds on their own turf on the ropes.
Wasn't a thing of beauty. If that's how the standings go ,the Jets would be 0-11.

cloppbeast
11-28-2010, 04:30 PM
He made some plays by keeping the play alive but your right, when the QB buys time it is harder for the Oline to hold their blocks.

His escapability is a valuable asset, but it shouldn't be used on every play for Pete's sake.

steeltheone
11-28-2010, 04:31 PM
My main complaint is against our so-called franchise quarterback. I know the o-line stinks, but he makes them look really bad by refusing to just get rid of the damn ball. I can't see the whole field, maybe the WRs aren't getting open, but at some point Ben just has to pull the trigger. He's a big time player making millions of dollars, he should be accurate enough to put it in tight windows.

Our recievers are not that good yet. Plus the tight ends have to stay in and block because the line is horrible.

PhantomJB93
11-28-2010, 04:32 PM
Im gonna attack Arians again.

Why does he have to be so predictable/repetitive when calling run plays with Mendy? I mean, seriously, we RARELY try running ot the outside (at least in comparison to how many times we run right up the middle for 2 yards). And whenever we run off tackle to the right, it nearly always results in a huge gain, and when we run to the left we fail miserably...that's the way it's been all year and if I, a casual fan, can pick up on this, why can't Arians adjust his run playcalling to at least TRY and take advantage of it?

SH-Rock
11-28-2010, 04:33 PM
My main complaint is against our so-called franchise quarterback. I know the o-line stinks, but he makes them look really bad by refusing to just get rid of the damn ball. I can't see the whole field, maybe the WRs aren't getting open, but at some point Ben just has to pull the trigger. He's a big time player making millions of dollars, he should be accurate enough to put it in tight windows.

Let's see receivers are either real young or old, he was playing with a bad leg and on top of that his OFC is the worst in the NFL.

Big D
11-28-2010, 04:33 PM
Im gonna attack Arians again.

Why does he have to be so predictable/repetitive when calling run plays with Mendy? I mean, seriously, we RARELY try running ot the outside (at least in comparison to how many times we run right up the middle for 2 yards). And whenever we run off tackle to the right, it nearly always results in a huge gain, and when we run to the left we fail miserably...that's the way it's been all year and if I, a casual fan, can pick up on this, why can't Arians adjust his run playcalling to at least TRY and take advantage of it?

more importantly why doesn't tomlin say something. Fans shouldnt be able to call the plays from the couch

OX1947
11-28-2010, 04:34 PM
I have one complaint today. It cost them the Baltimore game and it should have cost them today. When the Steelers are in "run the clock mode" at the end of games and their ass is near the goaline, GET that dumb (bleep) idiot guard Chris Kemo OUT of the game. Just bring in anyone but that (bleep) idiot. I have never seen such stupid idiotic plays at the WORST times then from that idiot.

Rick5895
11-28-2010, 04:39 PM
I thought the defense was on the bad side, Troy just happened to show up late in the game to save the defenses ass to help save the game.

I agree, I thought the D was not the best at all today, lots of dropped balls by the Bills receivers in the game, made us look like we were stopping them. Very little pressure, hopefully we will have Keisel back next week, time to find out what Butler can do.

grward
11-28-2010, 05:12 PM
I've said it all year and even pointed it out for the Raiders game.

THE OFFENSE SUCKS. They have SUCKED for awhile now. Why do they suck? Because they struggle to play complimentary football to what their defense is doing. What is that you say?

Well when you're pitching a shut out in the first half and come away with a measly 3 points on a 14 play drive, you know there are problems. The offense doesn't manage situations very well. They don't have the killer instinct to get up on teams and put them away. There was a case in point in that Raider game where the offense basically threw away prime real estate on several occasions in exchange for NADA. In the Raider game was 21 to 3 for the longest time - too long. They should have at least 45+ points in that game given their possessions. Now we see them doing the same in this game. Squandering ball possession for either nothing or little points. So long as the offense is stinking the joint out on a weekly basis, this team will go nowhere. That's right I said a weekly basis. They flat out SUCK. And have SUCKED for weeks. I don't care what the stats say or the results. They are managing to get by with this handicap but sooner or later it is going to cost them. The paltry 3 points in the second half nearly did them in today.

+1 ... I have to agree. I said it today and have said it before, this level of play will get them nowhere. They will not be able to beat Baltimore and if they do make the playoffs, they will be one and done. I'm not saying that they are not capable, but at the level they are currently playing they won't be able to stack too many more wins.

btaylor179
11-28-2010, 05:17 PM
on the ball johnson dropped we were held .....but again no call

casteeler
11-28-2010, 05:21 PM
Arians and Goodell must be golf buddies

SteelCityRules
11-28-2010, 05:50 PM
I am sure there are lots of holding calls that do not get called. Seems they watch for the holds against defensive players that get into the backfield and call the stuff that can go either way and miss everything else unless it is obvious. I am sure they were watching for holds on Harrison.

I have to respectfully disagree w/ you on that. Harrison is held most plays & it is rarely called. But, I'm sure I do have a biased opinion. lol

I have to say though, the Buffalo fans I've met are passionate about their team, but pretty friendly. We went to a game up in Buffalo, oh, geez, in the mid 90's & the fans were great, we were invited to tailgate w/ others & they were pretty cool during the game too. Sorry, OT'ing. =)

TRH
11-28-2010, 05:58 PM
Fox's penalty was ridiculously stupid. If i was Tomlin, i'd want to beat the s*** out of him after the game.

TRH
11-28-2010, 06:00 PM
another thing...
What's the matter with the tackling? LOTS of missed tackles today....

chizzler
11-28-2010, 06:13 PM
The problem is that this team has many weaknesses and is overrated. 8-3 is misleading. Come playoffs the truth will come out unfortunately. I think this coming offseason is crittical to the franchise. They desperately need a shut down corner. Trade up if need be. This playing 10 yards off receivers is getting old.

SH-Rock
11-28-2010, 06:32 PM
The problem is that this team has many weaknesses and is overrated. 8-3 is misleading. Come playoffs the truth will come out unfortunately. I think this coming offseason is crittical to the franchise. They desperately need a shut down corner. Trade up if need be. This playing 10 yards off receivers is getting old.

Janoris Jenkins and Aaron Williams look good.

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 12:36 AM
There's plenty of goating to go around.

Randle El and Sanders both dropped passes.

Kemo got destroyed on the O-line.

Ben took a lot of sacks once again and the defense gave up an admittedly marginal lead in the second half. Our playmakers bailed us out in a big way. Two Buffalo turnovers when they were in scoring positions, that's the reason we weren't beaten in regulation.

Just gotta be thankful we got lucky and came out with a win, hopefully we show up better, like we usually do, against the Ravens.

MasterOfPuppets
11-29-2010, 06:36 AM
I take back everything bad I said about squeeze-em - no way Reed makes all those kicks.
he looked very "reed like" when his kickoffs were going to the 10-15 yard line. :noidea:

Fire Haley
11-29-2010, 07:18 AM
he looked very "reed like" when his kickoffs were going to the 10-15 yard line. :noidea:


His 4 kicks, all from over 40 yds, won the game, that's good enough for me.

He can kick to the 10 all day long as long he makes clutch kicks in OT.

MasterOfPuppets
11-29-2010, 07:36 AM
His 4 kicks, all from over 40 yds, won the game, that's good enough for me.

He can kick to the 10 all day long as long he makes clutch kicks in OT.
his "clutchness" , isn't what got him cut from dallas and washington.
sure he was the hero yesterday , but ....
even a broken clock is right twice a day.

TRH
11-29-2010, 07:38 AM
his "clutchness" , isn't what got him cut from dallas and washington.
sure he was the hero yesterday , but ....
even a broken clock is right twice a day.

who cares why he got cut from Dallas and Washington? You can say the same thing about Reed's next team. Are people there going to say "well, ya know, he sucks, he was cut from Pittsburgh, he couldn't even make a 26-yarder...."

Whodis
11-29-2010, 08:07 AM
I thought Kemo had a great 1st half. Some of the holding calls were BS and some are happening because the QB doesn't get rid of the ball.

We will not run against any team ranked higher then last against the run. The rarely used overweight TE at fullback doesn't cut it.

Start blitzing in the second half. When we pressure a QB he seems to throw incompletions. When we rush 3 or 4 the opposing QB seems to light up William Gay like there's no tommorow (this will not stop Gay from celebrating the one play he makes the whole game).

The goat of this game has to be the Steve Johnson for dropping all those damn passes!!!!!

Curtain_of_Steel
11-29-2010, 08:33 AM
The announcers sucked, lol... Wallaces back is on TV, and they keep calling him mike williams, lol

Why can we not just put a team away? Soon as we get a lead we play soft. than we have to turn it on and start playing again when the other team finds life.
Start with a game plan, if it works stick to it, but do not come robotic.

They bltiz, go no huddle change it up.

We better come out with no huddle on the ravens or BB is going to get killed. As they will blitz, blitz blitz all night long.

Third Rail
11-29-2010, 08:50 AM
Goats?

Arians as usual, for once again proving that the Steelers' only ambition is to put 3 points on the board when in the red zone. There is no reason why this game should have gone to overtime. I don't want to hear any shit about how this Bills team "is the best 2-9 team in history." That's like saying a turd looks better when you put a big red bow on it. A team is 2-9 for a reason. They SUCK. And when a sucky team takes you to overtime, that's a huge red flag that you're not doing something right.

I'm happy we won, don't get me wrong... but if we don't fix our problems in the red zone, we'll either miss the post-season again or will choke in the first round.

steeltheone
11-29-2010, 08:56 AM
he looked very "reed like" when his kickoffs were going to the 10-15 yard line. :noidea:

Agreed...If we were gonna change kickers, you can't tell me there was not on available that could kick it into the endzone?

madtowndrunkard
11-29-2010, 09:01 AM
Holding calls were bad. A couple of them were bogus though especially the one that negated Mendy's big run.

I thought Ben looked terrible in the 2nd half. Once he starts holding the ball too long expect to see holding calls and sacks pile up.

I'd put the coaching staff on that goat list as well. Arians playcalling like always is predictable. We are up against the worst run defense in the league...yea we did put up 200 yards rushing on them, but it should have been more. We should have scored more points against the friggen Bills. Arians unit once again underachieved and here we are lucky to beat them because one of their WR's can't catch a ball.

After watching our O-line just blow them up on the 1st drive of the game I thought " game over" no way we lose this game when we are running at will. We then went away from the run for a while...then came back to it when the game was getting interesting. Every time we get in scoring position Arians play calling goes from bad to horrible.

Third Rail
11-29-2010, 09:07 AM
Yeah, that's the frustrating thing. Mendy racks up 150 yards but we still just barely win the game, and in OT no less. Why does our playcalling suck so hard in the red zone? Why is it always so difficult to move in those last 25 yards? I'm so sick of settling for field goals.

madtowndrunkard
11-29-2010, 09:24 AM
Agreed...If we were gonna change kickers, you can't tell me there was not on available that could kick it into the endzone?


it was pretty windy.....Reed would have been lucky to make one of those FG's.

SteelCityMom
11-29-2010, 09:32 AM
Goats?

Arians as usual, for once again proving that the Steelers' only ambition is to put 3 points on the board when in the red zone. There is no reason why this game should have gone to overtime. I don't want to hear any shit about how this Bills team "is the best 2-9 team in history." That's like saying a turd looks better when you put a big red bow on it. A team is 2-9 for a reason. They SUCK. And when a sucky team takes you to overtime, that's a huge red flag that you're not doing something right.

I'm happy we won, don't get me wrong... but if we don't fix our problems in the red zone, we'll either miss the post-season again or will choke in the first round.


I guess the only good thing to take away from it then (besides the obvious...the win) is that almost losing to a team like the Bills should get them extra fired up for the Ravens. I'm sure the coaches and players are more than a little pissed about some of their performances and feel kind of lucky like us fans do. I HOPE they take it out on the Rats 10 fold.

jjpro11
11-29-2010, 09:49 AM
they took Baltimore to OT too.. Baltimore lucked out a bit too in OT with the fumble by the Bills player while he was being carried. Buffalo's just one of those teams who can hang with any team, but don't know how to finish games.

Rotorhead
11-29-2010, 09:51 AM
It's funny how many people say Ben holds the ball too long, pay attention to the routes. All designed 10+ yard passes. Arians just can't call a good game. And how many times do we have to lose a lead to that damned prevent defense before we give up on it? I am glad we won and fortunately the Ravens aren't playing well either.

Third Rail
11-29-2010, 10:03 AM
Another reason Ben hangs on for so long is that our receivers (other than Wallace) have such a hard time shaking corners. You can't really blame Ben for being hesitant to throw passes at WRs who have a tendency to drop or bobble passes when they've got a defensive backs on them like cloaks. That almost always leads to an INT sooner or later.

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 10:08 AM
Another reason Ben hangs on for so long is that our receivers (other than Wallace) have such a hard time shaking corners. You can't really blame Ben for being hesitant to throw passes at WRs who have a tendency to drop or bobble passes when they've got a defensive backs on them like cloaks. That almost always leads to an INT sooner or later.

I don't agree with this line of reasoning at all. Ben held onto the ball a lot last year and took 50 sacks with Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace playing, you don't exactly associate those two with the phrase "can't get seperation". Ben has held onto the ball for a long time the past several years, nothing new this year.

Third Rail
11-29-2010, 10:19 AM
I don't agree with this line of reasoning at all. Ben held onto the ball a lot last year and took 50 sacks with Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace playing, you don't exactly associate those two with the phrase "can't get seperation". Ben has held onto the ball for a long time the past several years, nothing new this year.

Yeah, and Ben had over 4,300 yards passing and 26 TDs last year. He might have held on, but with both of those guys in the lineup, he was able to make plays.

Ward is a great WR but has problems getting separation. Sanders and Brown are rooks and aren't the best at getting separation (yet). Wallace is the only guy I see right now that gets consistent separation.

TRH
11-29-2010, 10:32 AM
I don't agree with this line of reasoning at all. Ben held onto the ball a lot last year and took 50 sacks with Santonio Holmes and Mike Wallace playing, you don't exactly associate those two with the phrase "can't get seperation". Ben has held onto the ball for a long time the past several years, nothing new this year.


and WAY more often than not, its been to our benefit, not to mention his important scrambles. I'd still take Ben as one of the top 3 QB's in the game.
You win 2 SB's and people still complain................good grief.

jjpro11
11-29-2010, 10:42 AM
I wish we'd mix in more 3 step drops.. i just don't understand for the life of me, with our oline as bad as it is, why we don't do this more often. the only quick hits we ever do are WR screens.. no quick slants, curls, etc... the only time we throw short is when there is nothing open downfield.

ZoneBlitzer
11-29-2010, 10:52 AM
Call me crazy but did we run any play-action plays? I seem to recall in yesterday's game that the run game was working well enough to put in a fake or two or three...But for some reason, I think I saw them show their hand when they had to pass or just drop back and pass directly.

plenewken
11-29-2010, 11:16 AM
and WAY more often than not, its been to our benefit, not to mention his important scrambles. I'd still take Ben as one of the top 3 QB's in the game.
You win 2 SB's and people still complain................good grief.

Despite his 2 rings, I don't see Ben being one of the top 3 QBs in the league.
He's far from being a Brady, Manning or Brees, let's be realistic. I rank him in the top 5 along with Rivers but not top 3.

Third Rail
11-29-2010, 11:30 AM
Despite his 2 rings, I don't see Ben being one of the top 3 QBs in the league.
He's far from being a Brady, Manning or Brees, let's be realistic. I rank him in the top 5 along with Rivers but not top 3.

So Top 5 is FAR from the Top 3? Not sure I follow that logic, but I would agree with you that Ben is in the Top 5. The Top 2 (though I hate to say it) are Brady and Manning with Brees and Rivers going back and forth for the 3rd and 4th spots, at least for the moment. Ben I would say is #5 right now, but he could improve to #3 if Arians and him work more on his red zone efficiency. Still, I do wonder if Ben would be in the top 2 or 3 with a better OC or O-Line, but well...

plenewken
11-29-2010, 12:09 PM
So Top 5 is FAR from the Top 3? Not sure I follow that logic, but I would agree with you that Ben is in the Top 5. The Top 2 (though I hate to say it) are Brady and Manning with Brees and Rivers going back and forth for the 3rd and 4th spots, at least for the moment. Ben I would say is #5 right now, but he could improve to #3 if Arians and him work more on his red zone efficiency. Still, I do wonder if Ben would be in the top 2 or 3 with a better OC or O-Line, but well...

Top 3 and top 5 are far from each other because as I see it, there's a big difference between Brady, Manning and Brees and the next 2, who are at this point, and you agree with me, Rivers and Ben.

I don't see Ben going up the rankings based on his game reading ability, limited mobility and relatively weak passing skills. He's not a very accurate passer by any means and he hardly hit his receivers in stride.

IMO, playing for the Steelers helps his ranking otherwise I don't think he'd make the top 5.

welder4pit
11-29-2010, 12:20 PM
The problem is that this team has many weaknesses and is overrated. 8-3 is misleading. Come playoffs the truth will come out unfortunately. I think this coming offseason is crittical to the franchise. They desperately need a shut down corner. Trade up if need be. This playing 10 yards off receivers is getting old. Agreed !!!!:banging:

MasterOfPuppets
11-29-2010, 12:20 PM
it was pretty windy.....Reed would have been lucky to make one of those FG's.
yes it was windy, which hurts you only when your kicking into it. did you notice how buffalo's kicker got some of his into the endzone ?

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 12:20 PM
and WAY more often than not, its been to our benefit, not to mention his important scrambles. I'd still take Ben as one of the top 3 QB's in the game.
You win 2 SB's and people still complain................good grief.

Maybe you did not read the post I quoted? My response was to the idea that Ben is mainly holding onto the ball too long because our receivers can't get seperation, a dubious argument. I never meant to insinuate it makes him better/worse than anyone else. Yet I wouldn't endorse your top 3 ranking, but that's unrelated. Ben holds onto the ball because that's how he plays the game, not because of the receivers and seperation.

CaliStillersFan
11-29-2010, 12:22 PM
My complaint of the week is once again the offensive play calling. Buffalo's weakness is their run defense, and the Steelers should have shuffled Redman and Mendehall all day, which is what they did pretty much in the 1st half, but for some reason with Ben playing hurt in the 2nd half, they decided to stop running the ball. Only on the last drive in OT did they return to what dominated in the 1st half, 9 runs 3 passes. It seems like Arians calls the offense he wants to call instead of developing a solid game plan each week focused around our opponents weaknesses. I hope Buffalo fires Chan Gailey and he comes back to Pittsburgh as our OC next season.

MasterOfPuppets
11-29-2010, 12:27 PM
Call me crazy but did we run any play-action plays? I seem to recall in yesterday's game that the run game was working well enough to put in a fake or two or three...But for some reason, I think I saw them show their hand when they had to pass or just drop back and pass directly.
actually they ran play action quite often, but it doesn't work so well when the defense is in the backfield before the qb can even look down field...:noidea:

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 12:32 PM
Let me add to the goats our kickoff coverage teams. Buffalo was constantly starting at their 35 or better and should have returned the OT kick for a touchdown if we didn't catch a break by the bonehead tripping over his own teammate.

Steelerfreak58
11-29-2010, 12:32 PM
I've said it all year and even pointed it out for the Raiders game.

THE OFFENSE SUCKS. They have SUCKED for awhile now. Why do they suck? Because they struggle to play complimentary football to what their defense is doing. What is that you say?

Well when you're pitching a shut out in the first half and come away with a measly 3 points on a 14 play drive, you know there are problems. The offense doesn't manage situations very well. They don't have the killer instinct to get up on teams and put them away. There was a case in point in that Raider game where the offense basically threw away prime real estate on several occasions in exchange for NADA. In the Raider game was 21 to 3 for the longest time - too long. They should have at least 45+ points in that game given their possessions. Now we see them doing the same in this game. Squandering ball possession for either nothing or little points. So long as the offense is stinking the joint out on a weekly basis, this team will go nowhere. That's right I said a weekly basis. They flat out SUCK. And have SUCKED for weeks. I don't care what the stats say or the results. They are managing to get by with this handicap but sooner or later it is going to cost them. The paltry 3 points in the second half nearly did them in today.

Cant disagree with that assessment.

plenewken
11-29-2010, 12:37 PM
Let me add to the goats our kickoff coverage teams. Buffalo was constantly starting at their 35 or better and should have returned the OT kick for a touchdown if we didn't catch a break by the bonehead tripping over his own teammate.

Yup. We've been extremely fortunate to beat them in OT, between the KO return and the drop in the endzone ........

Steelerfreak58
11-29-2010, 12:40 PM
The team has been lucky up to this point. They are the worst 8-3 team out there and the Patriots exposed that. The offense is just plain flat out horrible. Its more of the same helter skelter play calling and execution as before. The only game they have dominated an opponent was against the Raiders and they still ended up looking like crap winning by such a large margin.

Been trying to look for bright spots this season and so far dropping Reed and picking up Suisham is one of the few, Pouncey, Brown, that's about it.

Ben is holding on to the ball way way way too long. Either he isn't seeing the field and his receivers for shit or they are not getting open either way its a big problem.

Woodley in a contract year? LOL

Whodis
11-29-2010, 12:44 PM
Top 3 and top 5 are far from each other because as I see it, there's a big difference between Brady, Manning and Brees and the next 2, who are at this point, and you agree with me, Rivers and Ben.

I don't see Ben going up the rankings based on his game reading ability, limited mobility and relatively weak passing skills. He's not a very accurate passer by any means and he hardly hit his receivers in stride.

IMO, playing for the Steelers helps his ranking otherwise I don't think he'd make the top 5.

I think you summed it up right there.

This is the first year I place Rivers ahead of Ben. Ben's off seasons need to focus more on football. He's in better shape this year, but as you said he rarely hits recievers in stride. Also, we obviously have no plays designed for quick passes other then the over used screen.

On defense we are missing Smith and Kiesel. Not getting pressure at all.

steeltheone
11-29-2010, 02:22 PM
I think you summed it up right there.

This is the first year I place Rivers ahead of Ben. Ben's off seasons need to focus more on football. He's in better shape this year, but as you said he rarely hits recievers in stride. Also, we obviously have no plays designed for quick passes other then the over used screen.

On defense we are missing Smith and Kiesel. Not getting pressure at all.

Kiesel and Smith are as slow as they come...We need more line pressure but not gonna happen with 34 year olds.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
11-29-2010, 02:35 PM
I don't see Ben going up the rankings based on his game reading ability, limited mobility and relatively weak passing skills. He's not a very accurate passer by any means and he hardly hit his receivers in stride.

What QB have you been watching for the past 7 years?! Sheesh.

Third Rail
11-29-2010, 02:47 PM
Maybe you did not read the post I quoted? My response was to the idea that Ben is mainly holding onto the ball too long because our receivers can't get seperation, a dubious argument. I never meant to insinuate it makes him better/worse than anyone else. Yet I wouldn't endorse your top 3 ranking, but that's unrelated. Ben holds onto the ball because that's how he plays the game, not because of the receivers and seperation.

You need to watch some game film sometime. They showed it multiple times on Playbook after the Pats game. The receivers couldn't shake the defensive backs. It's easy to blame Ben during the game because he's the only one you're watching when he's scrambling around in the backfield.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 03:09 PM
Despite his 2 rings, I don't see Ben being one of the top 3 QBs in the league.
He's far from being a Brady, Manning or Brees, let's be realistic. I rank him in the top 5 along with Rivers but not top 3.

Not even. Rodgers is better, Vick is better, Matt Ryan is better. Heck, Joe Flacco and Kyle Orten might even be better. Ben is barely in the top ten.

At this point, although Sam Bradford might not be as good right now, I would almost rather have him. We're probably not going to win the Super Bowl this year, so we could just let him learn. In a year or two, Bradford will probably be much better than Ben.

plenewken
11-29-2010, 03:21 PM
What QB have you been watching for the past 7 years?! Sheesh.

I watched lots of QBs and Ben in particular. Being a Steeler doesn't automatically make a player best in his class. I ranked Ben behind 4 others, because of the 2SBs the Steelers have won with him (not because of him by the way). Without the 2 SB rings, he wouldn't be this high.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 03:57 PM
I watched lots of QBs and Ben in particular. Being a Steeler doesn't automatically make a player best in his class. I ranked Ben behind 4 others, because of the 2SBs the Steelers have won with him (not because of him by the way). Without the 2 SB rings, he wouldn't be this high.

No doubt. Super Bowl wins is the worst measuring stick for a QB's ability. So, the Steelers won 2 Super Bowls with Ben - would we have won more or less with Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers, ect.

In 2005, I think Ben was just a glorified Trent Dilfer. In 2008, The Steelers won with defense and late comebacks. Give Ben credit for being clutch in the fourth quarter, but also discredit him for being less than stellar in the first 3 quarters. Many other quarterbacks wouldn't have needed so many late comebacks on the 2008 Steelers team because they would have already been so far ahead.

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 04:03 PM
It was a win, and it feels good to be 8-3...but that was a harsh game. Should have been won before half-time.

So many goats to go around. Lewis and Gay come to mind first though.
Why? I wasn't able to watch the whole game (very little of it, unfortunately), but looking through the play-by-play, I see nothing but good coming from William Gay. A tipped pass, a drop for a loss (on a running play up the middle, no less), at least four or five passes defensed, a forced fumble, and a near interception for himself.

Don't get me wrong... I don't think Gay is our long-term answer at corner. But I also don't understand the hate he gets from this board. McFadden has done nothing but give up completion after completion after completion, and he seems to get a perpetual pass from everyone. I just don't get it. Seems like a double-standard to me.

In the passing game, Woodley, Ike and Clark gave up a lot more than Gay, it seems to me. :noidea:

Merchant
11-29-2010, 04:09 PM
Not even. Rodgers is better, Vick is better, Matt Ryan is better. Heck, Joe Flacco and Kyle Orten might even be better. Ben is barely in the top ten.

At this point, although Sam Bradford might not be as good right now, I would almost rather have him. We're probably not going to win the Super Bowl this year, so we could just let him learn. In a year or two, Bradford will probably be much better than Ben.

Wow... No comment.

Steeler4life1972
11-29-2010, 04:13 PM
Our kicker was huge yesterday....nice pick up...I agree reed probably would have missed 2 outta 3 of those

Steeler4life1972
11-29-2010, 04:16 PM
Gay gets beat just about everytime cause he gets caught lookin in the backfield so much. Polamalu has to stay to his side most of the time to help him cover thus making him ineffective to what he usually does.

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 04:17 PM
I watched lots of QBs and Ben in particular. Being a Steeler doesn't automatically make a player best in his class. I ranked Ben behind 4 others, because of the 2SBs the Steelers have won with him (not because of him by the way). Without the 2 SB rings, he wouldn't be this high.
Ben does what he does quite well. Witness his yards/completio (http://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_per_cmp_career.htm)n, where he is tied for 82nd all-time. 82nd, you say! That sucks! Well, consider that absolutely everyone in front of him is retired, and the reason is that in the post-Walsh era, no one passes like Ben any more. The system is designed against his style of play, and yet he does it anyways, and does it well. He is unique here, he is eager to grab yards, and he tends to get them.

He's also 8th all-time in passer rating, 5th among active QBs in TD percentage, and 9th among actives in completion %. Above him in many of his rankings are perennial stat-padders like Matt Schaub, Philip Rivers and Tony Romo - guys who couldn't win a big game if it was tiddlywinks.

Be honest, those of you complaining about Ben: would you rather have Philip Rivers as your QB?

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 04:20 PM
You need to watch some game film sometime. They showed it multiple times on Playbook after the Pats game. The receivers couldn't shake the defensive backs. It's easy to blame Ben during the game because he's the only one you're watching when he's scrambling around in the backfield.

Well I don't really watch game film because I just don't have or want to use up that kind of time.

It's not that I don't believe you, I can truly believe that our receiving corp has a tough time getting separation. My point is that is not the cause for Ben's tendency to hold onto the ball and freestyle a play.

Since 06 Ben has loved to move around, hold onto the ball, and try to extend plays. Whether we had speedsters in thel ineup like Holmes, Washington, or Wallace or slower targets like Ward, Miller, or Randle El. The idea that Ben's tendency to hold onto the ball for too long is a current phenomenon because of bad receiver separation just isn't true.

Steeler4life1972
11-29-2010, 04:20 PM
No doubt. Super Bowl wins is the worst measuring stick for a QB's ability. So, the Steelers won 2 Super Bowls with Ben - would we have won more or less with Aaron Rodgers, Philip Rivers, ect.

In 2005, I think Ben was just a glorified Trent Dilfer. In 2008, The Steelers won with defense and late comebacks. Give Ben credit for being clutch in the fourth quarter, but also discredit him for being less than stellar in the first 3 quarters. Many other quarterbacks wouldn't have needed so many late comebacks on the 2008 Steelers team because they would have already been so far ahead.

Ive said this a few weeks back that ben has no doubt benefitted from a good defense over the years then I get bashed for it. It is starting to show now...he has to get rid of the ball or ben will suffer 10 sacks this week. I do believe Arians is to blame also...call more shorter designed plays to help him...not just screens. Im tired of the trick plays as well...how often do they work??

TRH
11-29-2010, 04:20 PM
Philip Rivers, Kyle Orton, etc. You've GOT to be kidding me. Absolutely hilarious. It's just mental to think that.

Steeler4life1972
11-29-2010, 04:25 PM
Philip Rivers, Kyle Orton, etc. You've GOT to be kidding me. Absolutely hilarious. It's just mental to think that.

I do believe rodgers and rivers are better QB's

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 04:25 PM
What worried me most about the Ravens game is the Saints showed that aggressive blitzing can rattle this offense like nothing else, it amazes me that more teams don't have the cahones to send 6 or more after Ben on third downs and dare him to find the hot receiver.

Earlier in the year, when our o-line was better and healthier, we didn't win the line of scrimmage battle with the Ravens but did fairly decent (even ran for two TDs against them which we hadn't done in a long time). With Scott on the blind side and Kemo getting dumped on that left side is going to look even worse. I don't see us running the ball well enough to deter the Ravens from blitzing like crazy.

mikegrimey
11-29-2010, 04:28 PM
Why? I wasn't able to watch the whole game (very little of it, unfortunately), but looking through the play-by-play, I see nothing but good coming from William Gay. A tipped pass, a drop for a loss (on a running play up the middle, no less), at least four or five passes defensed, a forced fumble, and a near interception for himself.

Don't get me wrong... I don't think Gay is our long-term answer at corner. But I also don't understand the hate he gets from this board. McFadden has done nothing but give up completion after completion after completion, and he seems to get a perpetual pass from everyone. I just don't get it. Seems like a double-standard to me.

In the passing game, Woodley, Ike and Clark gave up a lot more than Gay, it seems to me. :noidea:

A lot of Steelers fans are still mad at Gay because of the way he got worked up and down the field last year. Other than the Patriots game he has been pretty good this year, and lets face it, he's not the first, nor will he be the last CB exploited by Tom Brady, hardly anything to shred him for.

Alphonso Smith of Detroit is having a really good year and look at what Brady did to him.

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 04:30 PM
Gay gets beat just about everytime cause he gets caught lookin in the backfield so much. Polamalu has to stay to his side most of the time to help him cover thus making him ineffective to what he usually does.
He's given up some embarrassing TDs this year, true. But so has McFadden, and so have Clark and even Troy. Ike, despite whatever deficiencies he may have, hasn't really been beaten for a score yet this year, or at least not that I can recall.

So, if they're all giving up big pass plays - and they are ALL giving it up - why is everyone focusing on our nickleback, of all people?

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 04:32 PM
I do believe rodgers and rivers are better QB's
Rodgers and Rivers have regularly had stellar Ds helping them out, and Rivers has always been surrounded by Pro Bowlers. What do either of them have to show for it?

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 04:37 PM
I do believe rodgers and rivers are better QB's

Easily. Only a homer would think otherwise. Rodgers and Rivers could possibly be the best two quarterbacks in the league right now.

SteelCityMom
11-29-2010, 04:37 PM
Why? I wasn't able to watch the whole game (very little of it, unfortunately), but looking through the play-by-play, I see nothing but good coming from William Gay. A tipped pass, a drop for a loss (on a running play up the middle, no less), at least four or five passes defensed, a forced fumble, and a near interception for himself.

Don't get me wrong... I don't think Gay is our long-term answer at corner. But I also don't understand the hate he gets from this board. McFadden has done nothing but give up completion after completion after completion, and he seems to get a perpetual pass from everyone. I just don't get it. Seems like a double-standard to me.

In the passing game, Woodley, Ike and Clark gave up a lot more than Gay, it seems to me. :noidea:

Probably because Bmac wasn't in there much to be angry at. :chuckle:

I don't know...I'm probably just so used to him getting abused this year that his name just automatically popped into my head when I was pissed off.

TRH
11-29-2010, 04:39 PM
He's given up some embarrassing TDs this year, true. But so has McFadden, and so have Clark and even Troy. Ike, despite whatever deficiencies he may have, hasn't really been beaten for a score yet this year, or at least not that I can recall.

So, if they're all giving up big pass plays - and they are ALL giving it up - why is everyone focusing on our nickleback, of all people?


Gay was all over the place Sunday and ends up in the backfield quite a bit when blitzed. I think Ike even praised his play.
He still has alot of work to do, but i don't think he's as bad as the rap he's gotten.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 04:43 PM
Rodgers and Rivers have regularly had stellar Ds helping them out, and Rivers has always been surrounded by Pro Bowlers. What do either of them have to show for it?

There's a lot of variables there - most notably coaching. The Steelers have been probably in the top 3 best coached teams this decade - behind the Patriots and Colts. The Bolts - Norv Turner? I think you have your answer to why they haven't been able to win. That shouldn't be used against Rivers.

You may be correct, the Steelers may not have won those two Super Bowls with Rivers. At that point Ben may have been a better quarterback. He certainly reached his potential faster than Rivers.

But seriously, do you really think Ben is a better quarterback right now than Rivers?

Merchant
11-29-2010, 04:46 PM
There's a lot of variables there - most notably coaching. The Steelers have been probably in the top 3 best coached teams this decade - behind the Patriots and Colts. The Bolts - Norv Turner? I think you have your answer to why they haven't been able to win. That shouldn't be used against Rivers.

You may be correct, the Steelers may not have won those two Super Bowls with Rivers. At that point Ben may have been a better quarterback. He certainly reached his potential faster than Rivers.

But seriously, do you really think Ben is a better quarterback right now than Rivers?

Yes.

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 04:53 PM
Easily. Only a homer would think otherwise. Rodgers and Rivers could possibly be the best two quarterbacks in the league right now.

You need to wake up man.. you're posting on SteelersFever "Not just fans, hardcore fans" forum, and you are talking in a derogatory way about homers?

Are Rivers & Rogers winning your fantasy league? What have they ever won in the NFL?

I'm sorry, but in my book, winning the big game matters.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 04:55 PM
You need to wake up man.. you're posting on SteelersFever "Not just fans, hardcore fans" forum, and you are talking in a derogatory way about homers?

Are Rivers & Rogers winning your fantasy league? What have they ever won in the NFL?

I'm sorry, but in my book, winning the big game matters.

Really? Would you take Doug Williams, Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer over Dan Marino?

By that who 'I want winners' rational, you should take Jeff Reed over basically every other kicker except Venitieri. After all, Reed is a 2 time Super Bowl winning kicker. :chuckle:

Football is the ultimate team game, and I will never understand why nearly full credit for winning, and nearly full responsibilty for losing is given to the quarterback.

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 05:08 PM
Really? Would you take Doug Williams, Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer over Dan Marino?

By that who 'I want winners' rational, you should take Jeff Reed over basically every other kicker except Venitieri. After all, Reed is a 2 time Super Bowl winning kicker. :chuckle:

Football is the ultimate team game, and I will never understand why nearly full credit for winning, and nearly full responsibilty for losing is given to the quarterback.
Are you really going to compare Ben to Trent Dilfer? You would think that Ben's numbers were positively atrocious, the way some of you talk about him. The truth is, statistically speaking, he's right up there with any of them. He's in the top-10 of all of those stats I mentioned earlier (all-time, not just actives), including passer rating. Dilfer, meanwhile, is 146th.

Are you in this debate in good faith, or just to be a curmudgeon?

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 05:22 PM
Really? Would you take Doug Williams, Brad Johnson or Trent Dilfer over Dan Marino?

By that who 'I want winners' rational, you should take Jeff Reed over basically every other kicker except Venitieri. After all, Reed is a 2 time Super Bowl winning kicker. :chuckle:

Football is the ultimate team game, and I will never understand why nearly full credit for winning, and nearly full responsibilty for losing is given to the quarterback.

Last time I checked, Reed wasn't winning games for the Steelers. Ben still is.

Ben has won more games than he's lost. You can count on him 90% of the time in clutch situations. Ben is a winner and a team player, and the best quarterback that played for the Steelers since the 70s. (You could debate that he's better than Bradshaw, but that's not the point of this post).

Let me ask you this.. who is the better receiver, Ward or Moss? Who would you rather have on your team? The better athlete? The one with the better stats?

QB is usually regarded as the most important (and difficult to play) position in professional football. There is no other position that can singlehandedly dictate the outcome of a game as the QB. Maybe that's why there's so much responsibility..

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 05:50 PM
Are you really going to compare Ben to Trent Dilfer?

You didn't read what I wrote. I did not compare Dilfer to Ben. I was comparing Ben's role on the Steelers in 2005 to Dilfer's role on the Ravens in 2000. Both were basically game managers - asked to pass to offset the run. I was really just trying to put some perspective on the 'beat like a dead horse', worn out 2-time Super Bowl winning quarter back cliche.

Ben is obviously a better quarterback than Dilfer, but it's not because Ben has more Super Bowl wins. Frankly I'm getting tired of people citing Ben's Super Bowl wins as a reason why he's so great. He happened to be on the team that won the Super Bowl twice. He was never a Super Bowl MVP, and frankly he played quite terrible in Super Bowl 40. On neither of those Super Bowl winning teams was he even the team's MVP.

You would think that Ben's numbers were positively atrocious, the way some of you talk about him. The truth is, statistically speaking, he's right up there with any of them.

Take the passer rating for what it's worth. It only considers yards per attempt. A sack does not count as an attempt, nor does it come off total passing yards either - although it should. I'm not doing the math, but I think we can all agree that Ben's rating will come down considerably if the QB rating considered sack yards as well.

Are you in this debate in good faith, or just to be a curmudgeon?

I'm just tired Ben holding onto the ball for 5 seconds and wondering why he gets sacked or the o-line gets called for holding.

Fire Haley
11-29-2010, 05:52 PM
The holding penalties on the O-line were because they were getting beaten up physically. Pouncey got thrown around like a rag doll a couple times too in pass protection....Kemo is a lumbering bear - his diving air blocks - those are my favorite.

Ben looked his best on the drive right before half when he came out calling his own plays in the 2 minute drill, 4 WR and Heath the blocking back. They moved the ball with crisp passes over the middle and on short slants, quick dropbacks, no holding the ball, just step back, plant the leg and hit it. They were open everywhere. Foster and Scott just don't know how to protect Ben yet on his scrambles, they are just learning.

The whole offense looked good in the first half running the ball, even when the receivers were dropping some balls.

Game should have been over there if the defense didn't shit the bed.

austinfrench76
11-29-2010, 05:56 PM
Ben stands behind one of the worst O-Line's assembled. Both starting tackles out for the year and two guards playing essentially out of position. Throw in a rookie center and a bag of peanuts and you've got a circus. I would take Ben over Rivers or Rogers. Fantasy football clouds people's vision to winners. Ben is a winner, so love him or leave him but don't bitch about a guy who stands behind that line. You cannot make serious complaints.

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 05:57 PM
I'm not sure it's fair to say the D shit the bed, but they do still have problems hold big leads.

As for the offense, it looked phenomenal in the no-huddle. Further proof that Arians' playcalling is part of the problem, not the solution. On the other hand, it might also be further proof that he's a decent OC as far as preparing his boys for game day.

SH-Rock
11-29-2010, 05:57 PM
Ben was hurt for a good chunk of the game so thats not good.
And it's Ben's fault for holding too long, the receivers need to get open quick and that should be Arians job to have plays where they can do that. If you look at the plays Ben called they went down the field real fast. They have potential but never met it due to Arians.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
11-29-2010, 06:06 PM
It is absolutely unbelievable how some of you guys can be dumping on Ben. He is just about the only play maker on the offense (Wallace is getting there) and has made big play after big play to keep this team in games.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 06:09 PM
Last time I checked, Reed wasn't winning games for the Steelers. Ben still is.

Irrelevant.

Ben has won more games than he's lost.

Willie Gay has won more games than he's lost. Charlie Batch has won more game's than he's lost. Max Starks has won more games than he's lost.

Actually, come to think of it, the Steelers have won more games than they've lost in total - even without Ben. In fact, they have a better winning percentage without Ben (75%), than with him (66%).

You can count on him 90% of the time in clutch situations.

I'll give you that. Which is exactly why I would rather have him than Donovan McNabb.

Let me ask you this.. who is the better receiver, Ward or Moss? Who would you rather have on your team? The better athlete? The one with the better stats?

I want to first of all point out, that I have not mentioned stats once. Stats are not the reason I think Ben is overrated.

But to answer your question, I think Moss is the better receiver. But personally, I would rather have Ward, namely because I love Ward and Moss is a huge douche bag.

There is no other position that can singlehandedly dictate the outcome of a game as the QB.

This is not true. The QB does not 'singlehandedly' dictate the outcome of the game. Otherwise, the Steelers would have lost Super Bowl 40.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 06:11 PM
Ben stands behind one of the worst O-Line's assembled. Both starting tackles out for the year and two guards playing essentially out of position. Throw in a rookie center and a bag of peanuts and you've got a circus. I would take Ben over Rivers or Rogers. Fantasy football clouds people's vision to winners. Ben is a winner, so love him or leave him but don't bitch about a guy who stands behind that line. You cannot make serious complaints.

I don't fault him for standing behind that line. I fault him for holding the ball for five seconds while standing behind that line. Only an idiot would do that.

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 06:26 PM
Irrelevant.



Willie Gay has won more games than he's lost. Charlie Batch has won more game's than he's lost. Max Starks has won more games than he's lost.

Actually, come to think of it, the Steelers have won more games than they've lost in total - even without Ben. In fact, they have a better winning percentage without Ben (75%), than with him (66%).



I'll give you that. Which is exactly why I would rather have him than Donovan McNabb.



I want to first of all point out, that I have not mentioned stats once. Stats are not the reason I think Ben is overrated.

But to answer your question, I think Moss is the better receiver. But personally, I would rather have Ward, namely because I love Ward and Moss is a huge douche bag.



This is not true. The QB does not 'singlehandedly' dictate the outcome of the game. Otherwise, the Steelers would have lost Super Bowl 40.

You brought up Reed..

I'll take the 66% any day.. I've watched too many $hitty QBs over the years.. Brister, Kent Graham, Stewart, etc.. to know better.

I didn't say that the QB "singlehandedly" controls the outcome of the game, I said that there's no one person that siglehandedly controls the outcome of the game more than the QB. Otherwise, the Steelers would have won Super Bowl 30.

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 06:28 PM
I don't fault him for standing behind that line. I fault him for holding the ball for five seconds while standing behind that line. Only an idiot would do that.

The same idiot that picks up 18 yards on a 3rd and 17.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 06:39 PM
You brought up Reed.

Yes, but it really wasn't about Reed. Either way I made a valid point and it's entirely irrelevant that he doesn't play for the Steelers anymore. Instead of making irrelevent remarks, why don't you address my argument?

I'll take the 66% any day.. I've watched too many $hitty QBs over the years.. Brister, Kent Graham, Stewart, etc.. to know better.

That's not what we're arguing about. All those quarterbacks suck. Philip Rivers and Aaron Rodgers do not. Again, this is irrelevent.

I didn't say that the QB "singlehandedly" controls the outcome of the game, I said that there's no one person that siglehandedly controls the outcome of the game more than the QB.

Here's your logical fallacy:

Just because QB is the most important position does not mean the QB on the Super Bowling winning team is the best QB.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 06:45 PM
The same idiot that picks up 18 yards on a 3rd and 17.

That's your argument. Laughable. :chuckle:

Does that one play make up for the 5 sacks for -26 yards, not to mention the holds which are a direct result of Ben holding on to the ball too long?

Just to be clear: I don't think Ben is a bad quarterback, which is what you seem to be insinuating. I think he's a top 10, not top 5. If he learned how to get rid of the ball, he would be much better.

theplatypus
11-29-2010, 06:45 PM
Ben holding the ball is part of the problem, but the main part yesterday was the oline and their penchant for penalties. Just over a minute left 3rd and 7, Ben completes a pass to Sanders(?) over 7 yards which would have ended the game. However, Kemo was called for holding, followed by a false start to make it 3rd and 22. It happened repeatedly in the 2nd half yesterday.

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 06:47 PM
Yes, but it really wasn't about Reed. Either way I made a valid point and it's entirely irrelevant that he doesn't play for the Steelers anymore. Instead of making irrelevent remarks, why don't you address my argument?





That's not what we're arguing about. All those quarterbacks suck. Philip Rivers and Aaron Rodgers do not. Again, this is irrelevent.



Here's your logical fallacy:

Just because QB is the most important position does not mean the QB on the Super Bowling winning team is the best QB.

When I try to address players YOU brought up, you call them irrelevant !!

Again, these are players you brought up.

The best QB of what?? The best QB of all time? The best QB that day? The best QB for the team? Say it man..

MDSteel15
11-29-2010, 06:53 PM
You win 2 SB's and people still complain................good grief.

Aint that the truth... Amen brother :hatsoff:

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 06:55 PM
That's your argument. Laughable. :chuckle:

Does that one play make up for the 5 sacks for -26 yards, not to mention the holds which are a direct result of Ben holding on to the ball too long?

Just to be clear: I don't think Ben is a bad quarterback, which is what you seem to be insinuating. I think he's a top 10, not top 5. If he learned how to get rid of the ball, he would be much better.

Were you laughing when he picked up the 1st down? That's the way the man plays the game.. like it or not. And it sounds like you don't like him or his style of play. That's OK, you're entitled to your opinion. I think he's the best QB to play for Pgh since 1983, and he's got a couple more SBs in him yet.

Quite frankly, I don't give a damn if he's in the top 10 or the top 50, as long as he's winning games for us, including SBs.

MDSteel15
11-29-2010, 06:58 PM
Despite his 2 rings, I don't see Ben being one of the top 3 QBs in the league.
He's far from being a Brady, Manning or Brees, let's be realistic. I rank him in the top 5 along with Rivers but not top 3.

I wouldn't take Manning OR Brady!!! With our O-line they both would be dead in a week! Brees I would take because he's mobile and Ben is a given... but Rivers is an arrogant a$$ that hasn't proven he can get past the 1st 2 rounds of the playoffs!!

SteelCityMom
11-29-2010, 07:02 PM
One thing I like about Ben right now is that, despite him holding the ball and taking sacks (his usual)...he's not throwing interceptions very often at all (knock on wood). I much prefer it when he takes a sack for a loss than throwing a pick.

He's not the best QB in the league at all...but I don't think any QB (not not even Brady or Manning) would do any better with the Oline we have had for the past couple years.

plenewken
11-29-2010, 07:20 PM
One thing I like about Ben right now is that, despite him holding the ball and taking sacks (his usual)...he's not throwing interceptions very often at all (knock on wood). I much prefer it when he takes a sack for a loss than throwing a pick.

He's not the best QB in the league at all...but I don't think any QB (not not even Brady or Manning) would do any better with the Oline we have had for the past couple years.

I wasn't implying that Brady or Manning would do better than Ben with our OL (although I believe they would). My point was in response to someone ranking Ben as one of the top 3 QBs in the NFL, that's all. Ben's our franchise QB, he's much better than any of the QBs the Steelers had since Bradshaw, he's doing a great job but he's not a top 3 QB by any stretch.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 07:25 PM
Were you laughing when he picked up the 1st down? That's the way the man plays the game.. like it or not.

We're you laughing at all the holding calls and the sacks?

I know that's how he plays the game (thanks for pointing that out!), and I don't like it. That's kind of my point.

And it sounds like you don't like him or his style of play. That's OK, you're entitled to your opinion. I think he's the best QB to play for Pgh since 1983, and he's got a couple more SBs in him yet.

Nobody would argue against that, and that's not even what I'm arguing. I said that Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers were better, and you starting arguing with me. Now saying Ben is the best Steeler's quarterback since 1983 is quite different than saying he's better than Rivers or Rodgers.

ricardisimo
11-29-2010, 07:27 PM
I wasn't implying that Brady or Manning would do better than Ben with our OL (although I believe they would). My point was in response to someone ranking Ben as one of the top 3 QBs in the NFL, that's all. Ben's our franchise QB, he's much better than any of the QBs the Steelers had since Bradshaw, he's doing a great job but he's not a top 3 QB by any stretch.
What do you mean by "by any stretch"? On what are you basing your judgment?

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 07:30 PM
One thing I like about Ben right now is that, despite him holding the ball and taking sacks (his usual)...he's not throwing interceptions very often at all (knock on wood). I much prefer it when he takes a sack for a loss than throwing a pick.

Valid point (finally!). Sacks are better than interceptions.

He's not the best QB in the league at all...but I don't think any QB (not not even Brady or Manning) would do any better with the Oline we have had for the past couple years.

Manning is having a bad season, perhaps he's on the down slide. I disagree about Brady. He may not have the escapability Ben has, but that would be irrelevant because he would have already gotten rid of the ball.

plenewken
11-29-2010, 07:32 PM
What do you mean by "by any stretch"? On what are you basing your judgment?

I meant by any stretch of the imagination. I base my judgment strictly on stats, nothing emotional.

cubanstogie
11-29-2010, 07:36 PM
Right now I could not say Ben is as good as Brady or Manning. But I couldn't concede to Rodgers or River being better than Ben either. Rivers throws for alot of yards and throws a great deep ball. Could you imaging him running on the 3rd and 18 scamper Ben had yesterday, or the TD run he had agains the Raiders. Ben has cut down on pics and manages a game excellent. I would take him in 2 minute offense against any QB in league. Rivers has a much better OL than we do, he would be crap on our offense.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 07:45 PM
When I try to address players YOU brought up, you call them irrelevant !!

I did not call mentioning the player irrelevant. The point you made was irrelevant.

Again, I made a valid point by bringing up Reed (go back an read it), and your response was basically, "he doesn't play for the Steelers any more". (well no sh*t) What you didn't do was address my point. You only mentioned the player I used in my analogy.

If you can't comprehend this, I'm truly sorry. The public school system failed you.

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 09:05 PM
I did not call mentioning the player irrelevant. The point you made was irrelevant.


Again, I made a valid point by bringing up Reed (go back an read it), and your response was basically, "he doesn't play for the Steelers any more". (well no sh*t) What you didn't do was address my point. You only mentioned the player I used in my analogy.

If you can't comprehend this, I'm truly sorry. The public school system failed you.

You need to relax. I think you're just having a hard time expressing yourself in written form this evening.

You're trying really hard to make a point.. and you still can't get it across. Instead, you repeatedly state how you made a "valid point". I don't see any points made by you in this tread that are "valid". You basically started your rant by calling out "homers" in your post. Take a look back at my first post.. maybe you missed it the first time.

Your analogy about Reed is not a good one. He has not won a single game for the Steelers this season. Maybe you could have thought about another more relevant analogy and I would have entertained "addressing" your point.

I'm sorry I reminded you that Reed no longer plays for the Steelers. It just reminded me of the earlier discussion we had about the importance of the QB on the overall play of the team. When you made the comment that the Steelers won SB XL in spite of the QB, I made the remark that they lost SB XXX due to the QB. You never addressed that point.

And finally, you resorted to ad hominem attacks (how's that for Public Education!) Before you start questioning my academic achievements, you may want to turn on the spell check feature before you click the "post" button.

SuperSteelers
11-29-2010, 09:37 PM
We're you laughing at all the holding calls and the sacks?

I know that's how he plays the game (thanks for pointing that out!), and I don't like it. That's kind of my point.



Nobody would argue against that, and that's not even what I'm arguing. I said that Aaron Rodgers and Philip Rivers were better, and you starting arguing with me. Now saying Ben is the best Steeler's quarterback since 1983 is quite different than saying he's better than Rivers or Rodgers.

A "kinda point"... finally, but a point none the less. All you needed to do was say that you don't like Ben nor the way he plays the game.

No, you're incorrect. I started debating with you when you made the statement that if anyone disagrees with you, they are "homers". Well, I for one, am proud to be a "homer". This "homer" bleeds Black and Gold.

So, if you're not a "homer", then what are you? A fair weather fan? A bandwagoner? Are you one of those die-hard fans that has a "second favorite" team? Do you think Tony Romo is better than Ben?

BTW, I never said that Ben was better (or worse) than any other team's QB. Go back and read the post.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 10:26 PM
Your analogy about Reed is not a good one. He has not won a single game for the Steelers this season. Maybe you could have thought about another more relevant analogy and I would have entertained "addressing" your point.

Actually he has won us games this year - Atlanta, Tennessee, Miami, and Cincinnati were all won by 6 points or less. But that's besides the point.

You didn't say anything about "winning us' games with your original post. (How can you really determine who "won us" the game anyway?) You also didn't say anything about winning games this season. You only said 'you want winners'. I assumed, since you didn't specify, that this applies to players other than quarterbacks. Reed is a winner by definition. He's won 2 Super Bowls. He has about the same winning percentage in the regular season as Ben.

So at the time I made the comment, it was a valid point. It appears you are altering your original post to mean 'wins this season', and only quarterbacks since they're the most important - unbeknownst to me until now.

When you made the comment that the Steelers won SB XL in spite of the QB, I made the remark that they lost SB XXX due to the QB. You never addressed that point.

I doubt we win Super Bowl 30 even with Ben, and we probably still win Super Bowl 40 with Neil O'Donnell. Of course this is hypothetical, just my opinion.

I personally liked Neil and thought he got the shaft from Steelers fans. When he retired, I'm pretty sure he had the lowest interception to pass ratio ever, which has since been surpassed by McNabb. Dude never threw more than 9 picks in any season.

O'Donnell was never really a franchise QB, but he managed the game and minimized mistakes, which was all he was really ever asked to do. Against the Cowboys, we got behind and the Steelers had to rely on his arm. He made a few mistakes, or at least that's how the fans perceived it. Both interceptions looked a lot like a miscommunications to me - very possibly the WR's fault.

O'Donnell's performance in Super Bowl 30 was better than Ben's in Super Bowl 40. The reason why we won SB 40 is because the Steelers were playing one of the worst teams ever to make it to the Big Dance. In Super Bowl 30 we played one of the greatest dynasties in the free agency era. It's unfortunate for O'Donnell, but fortunate for Ben.

cloppbeast
11-29-2010, 10:46 PM
So, if you're not a "homer", then what are you? A fair weather fan? A bandwagoner? Are you one of those die-hard fans that has a "second favorite" team? Do you think Tony Romo is better than Ben?

I'm a fan, but I'm not homer. I've rooted for the Steelers my whole life, even when they lose. I'm not any less of a Steeler's fan because I think Aaron Rodgers is a better QB than Ben - I still root for Ben every Sunday, or Monday, or Thursday.

As a quarterback, winning games and Super Bowls on one of the best coached teams with one of the best Defenses year, for one of the most stable franchises, does not make you one of the best. Winning games and Super Bowls is a team effort. The Steelers went 3-1 without Ben, and they'd still be a good team without him.

Stating that Ben has so many wins and so many Super Bowls is a tired argument that has gotten old. In fact, this whole argument regarding quarterbacks is entirely overused and mostly invalid.

Ben is better than Romo, but they're in the same echelon. Ben is certainly better in the clutch and a better decision maker. Romo throws a better ball more accurately. I'd take Ben.

zulater
11-29-2010, 11:44 PM
Geez I clicked on to this thread expecting to read some comments about "Sushi's" clutcdh kicks, maybe some complaints about Kemo and Scott being owned on virtually every play. Maybe a little moaning about another bullshit call against James Harrison. Instead it's nothing but some b's. with clopper trying to minimize Ben's importance to this team?! :doh:

:confused::hunch::eyecrazy::dang:

zulater
11-29-2010, 11:46 PM
Camel dung awards to: Kemo, Lewis, Scott, Fox for their stupid penalties at the worst moment imaginable.

ditto.

ricardisimo
11-30-2010, 12:29 AM
I meant by any stretch of the imagination. I base my judgment strictly on stats, nothing emotional.
And yet, statistically speaking, all of these guys are in the top ten or top five of any meaningful list, including all-time lists. Ben is number one on some (as I cited earlier) and on others he's fourth or fifth. And although clopp doesn't want to hear about it, SB wins is a stat, even if it's just one among many. Other stats he might not want to hear about are wins:


Most regular season wins in a season, rookie QB — 13 (2004) [120] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-119)
Longest regular season win streak to start a career for a NFL QB — 15 games (won all 13 starts in the 2004 season, won first 2 games of the 2005 season)[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Most wins as a starting quarterback in first five NFL seasons (reg. season only) - 51 (from 2004–2008)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-dallasnews.com-29)

How about a few others:


Highest passer rating, rookie season — 98.1 (2004)[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-NFL_Records_-_Passing-121)
Highest completion percentage, rookie season — 66.4% (2004)[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-NFL_Records_-_Passing-121)
Most games with a completion percentage of 80.0% or higher, single season (min. 10 attempts) — 4 (2007)[123] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-122)
(Tie) Most touchdown passes, Monday Night Football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday_Night_Football) game — 5 (11/5/2007 vs. Baltimore Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens)) [121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
First QB to start two Conference Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game) games in first two seasons in the NFL (2004 & 2005)[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Youngest starting QB ever to win the Super Bowl (2005; second-youngest QB to play in the Super Bowl, behind Dan Marino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Marino))[124] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-123)
Second quarterback in NFL history, along with Peyton Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning), to register three perfect passing games during the regular season, and the only quarterback to ever register two perfect passing games in one regular season.[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Lowest passer rating for a Super Bowl winning QB — 22.6 (Completed 9 of 21 passes for zero touchdowns with two interceptions)[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-124)
Tied for most seasons with one or more postseason starts in the first five years in the league since 1960, with four starts (tied with Bernie Kosar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Kosar), Donovan McNabb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donovan_McNabb), and Eli Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Manning)).[126] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-125)

I'm sure the other names being tossed around here have numerous accolades and stats to wave around as well. So, at the end of the day, all you do have to base this judgment upon is precisely something "emotional".

If this is about the Georgia and Nevada cases, just admit it. I do... I think Ben is almost certainly a major prick in his daily life. I'd rather he spend major time and money on some serious talk therapy to clean his brain up a bit. But the long and the short of it is that he has as valid a claim to being the "top QB in the league" as any of those other names. Realistically, though, only Brady and Manning have strong arguments. I'm not sure why people keep bringing Rodgers, Romo and Rivers into the debate.

DanRooney
11-30-2010, 03:40 AM
Right now I could not say Ben is as good as Brady or Manning. But I couldn't concede to Rodgers or River being better than Ben either. Rivers throws for alot of yards and throws a great deep ball. Could you imaging him running on the 3rd and 18 scamper Ben had yesterday, or the TD run he had agains the Raiders. Ben has cut down on pics and manages a game excellent. I would take him in 2 minute offense against any QB in league. Rivers has a much better OL than we do, he would be crap on our offense.

Manning and Brady are better than Roethlisberger. That being said, Manning is the most overrated player in the history of the sport. Just a year ago he was being considered the best player (not just quarterback) ever.

Philip Rivers and Rodgers are on par with Roethlisberger. Better statistically, but not proven winners yet. When you don't have a run game, your stats skyrocket. The same goes if you don't have a defense or are playing from behind (see Ben in 2009). Saying who's better is like watching The Dark Knight and Inception and picking one. You can't go wrong.

saveus1011
11-30-2010, 04:15 AM
The only quarterback better than Ben is Brady. Don't even give me this Manning crap. Guy can't win when the game is on the line, and his only Super Bowl is against Rex Grossman.

plenewken
11-30-2010, 04:22 AM
And yet, statistically speaking, all of these guys are in the top ten or top five of any meaningful list, including all-time lists. Ben is number one on some (as I cited earlier) and on others he's fourth or fifth. And although clopp doesn't want to hear about it, SB wins is a stat, even if it's just one among many. Other stats he might not want to hear about are wins:


Most regular season wins in a season, rookie QB 13 (2004) [120] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-119)
Longest regular season win streak to start a career for a NFL QB 15 games (won all 13 starts in the 2004 season, won first 2 games of the 2005 season)[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Most wins as a starting quarterback in first five NFL seasons (reg. season only) - 51 (from 20042008)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-dallasnews.com-29)

How about a few others:


Highest passer rating, rookie season 98.1 (2004)[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-NFL_Records_-_Passing-121)
Highest completion percentage, rookie season 66.4% (2004)[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-NFL_Records_-_Passing-121)
Most games with a completion percentage of 80.0% or higher, single season (min. 10 attempts) 4 (2007)[123] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-122)
(Tie) Most touchdown passes, Monday Night Football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday_Night_Football) game 5 (11/5/2007 vs. Baltimore Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens)) [121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
First QB to start two Conference Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game) games in first two seasons in the NFL (2004 & 2005)[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Youngest starting QB ever to win the Super Bowl (2005; second-youngest QB to play in the Super Bowl, behind Dan Marino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Marino))[124] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-123)
Second quarterback in NFL history, along with Peyton Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning), to register three perfect passing games during the regular season, and the only quarterback to ever register two perfect passing games in one regular season.[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Lowest passer rating for a Super Bowl winning QB 22.6 (Completed 9 of 21 passes for zero touchdowns with two interceptions)[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-124)
Tied for most seasons with one or more postseason starts in the first five years in the league since 1960, with four starts (tied with Bernie Kosar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Kosar), Donovan McNabb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donovan_McNabb), and Eli Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Manning)).[126] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-125)

I'm sure the other names being tossed around here have numerous accolades and stats to wave around as well. So, at the end of the day, all you do have to base this judgment upon is precisely something "emotional".

If this is about the Georgia and Nevada cases, just admit it. I do... I think Ben is almost certainly a major prick in his daily life. I'd rather he spend major time and money on some serious talk therapy to clean his brain up a bit. But the long and the short of it is that he has as valid a claim to being the "top QB in the league" as any of those other names. Realistically, though, only Brady and Manning have strong arguments. I'm not sure why people keep bringing Rodgers, Romo and Rivers into the debate.

My stats are more recent and they don't consider age or emotion. Number of sacks per season, % completion, number of yard rushing, nb of 1st downs, red zone efficiency, stuff like that. The "best rookie" kind of stat doesn't matter to me. They're impressive on a resume but they don't help rank him amongst his peers in a particular year.
Fact of the matter, since 2007 his numbers went down. He was much more mobile and accurate in 04-05-06 than he's been ever since. Arians changed his whole style and not in a positive way, in my opinion.
I don't think Ben has any claim at being the top QB in the League. Not by a mile. None of his numbers supports it. Like I said, he's a top 5, no more, and yes, I believe that Rivers (not Romo, Rodgers or Flacco) is a better QB than him. After this season, I'll see where Vick stands but he's moving up really fast.

cloppbeast
11-30-2010, 09:26 AM
And yet, statistically speaking, all of these guys are in the top ten or top five of any meaningful list, including all-time lists. Ben is number one on some (as I cited earlier) and on others he's fourth or fifth. And although clopp doesn't want to hear about it, SB wins is a stat, even if it's just one among many. Other stats he might not want to hear about are wins:


Most regular season wins in a season, rookie QB 13 (2004) [120] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-119)
Longest regular season win streak to start a career for a NFL QB 15 games (won all 13 starts in the 2004 season, won first 2 games of the 2005 season)[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Most wins as a starting quarterback in first five NFL seasons (reg. season only) - 51 (from 20042008)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-dallasnews.com-29)

How about a few others:


Highest passer rating, rookie season 98.1 (2004)[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-NFL_Records_-_Passing-121)
Highest completion percentage, rookie season 66.4% (2004)[122] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-NFL_Records_-_Passing-121)
Most games with a completion percentage of 80.0% or higher, single season (min. 10 attempts) 4 (2007)[123] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-122)
(Tie) Most touchdown passes, Monday Night Football (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monday_Night_Football) game 5 (11/5/2007 vs. Baltimore Ravens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltimore_Ravens)) [121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
First QB to start two Conference Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AFC_Championship_Game) games in first two seasons in the NFL (2004 & 2005)[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Youngest starting QB ever to win the Super Bowl (2005; second-youngest QB to play in the Super Bowl, behind Dan Marino (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Marino))[124] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-123)
Second quarterback in NFL history, along with Peyton Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peyton_Manning), to register three perfect passing games during the regular season, and the only quarterback to ever register two perfect passing games in one regular season.[121] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-Ben_Roethlisberger_Profile-120)
Lowest passer rating for a Super Bowl winning QB 22.6 (Completed 9 of 21 passes for zero touchdowns with two interceptions)[125] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-124)
Tied for most seasons with one or more postseason starts in the first five years in the league since 1960, with four starts (tied with Bernie Kosar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernie_Kosar), Donovan McNabb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donovan_McNabb), and Eli Manning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eli_Manning)).[126] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Roethlisberger#cite_note-125)

I'm sure the other names being tossed around here have numerous accolades and stats to wave around as well. So, at the end of the day, all you do have to base this judgment upon is precisely something "emotional".

If this is about the Georgia and Nevada cases, just admit it. I do... I think Ben is almost certainly a major prick in his daily life. I'd rather he spend major time and money on some serious talk therapy to clean his brain up a bit. But the long and the short of it is that he has as valid a claim to being the "top QB in the league" as any of those other names. Realistically, though, only Brady and Manning have strong arguments. I'm not sure why people keep bringing Rodgers, Romo and Rivers into the debate.

I'm not much of a stat guy, either to be honest. Not in football. The game is such a team game with so many variables, coaching, scheme, surrounding players ect. It's not like baseball where it's one-on-one pitcher vs. batter. In football, you have to take stats for what their worth.

Consider QB rating:

A quarterback like Ben who holds onto the ball for a long timein an effort to make a big play will have a higher QB rating than his skill indicates. The only 3 stats that are considered in QB rating are: yards per attempt, TDs per attempt, and Interception per attempt.

Ben's yards per attempt are extremely enflated due to the way he plays the game, because his sack yards aren't considered in his yards per attempt (a sack doesn't even count as an attempt, let alone reduce his total yards!). If you look at the stats just for YPA, Ben is allways at or near the the top - this is why he has such a high QB rating. But if sack yards included, his rating would decline a lot more than others.

Ben has usually a moderate TD to attempt rate, and a moderate to low interception rate. Give him credit for that.

plenewken
11-30-2010, 10:36 AM
Ben's yards per attempt are extremely enflated due to the way he plays the game, because his sack yards aren't considered in his yards per attempt (a sack doesn't even count as an attempt, let alone reduce his total yards!). If you look at the stats just for YPA, Ben is allways at or near the the top - this is why he has such a high QB rating. But if sack yards included, his rating would decline a lot more than others.
.

Sacks are bad, and they've become a bad habit with Ben. It's loss of down and loss of yardage.

tony hipchest
11-30-2010, 10:48 AM
interceptions and intentional grounding are also bad.

touchdowns are good.

zulater
11-30-2010, 10:52 AM
interceptions and intentional grounding are also bad.

touchdowns are good.

So are wins!

What was this thread supposed to be about again? :noidea:

SteelMember
11-30-2010, 11:29 AM
So are wins!

What was this thread supposed to be about again? :noidea:

Poor blocking, bad tackling, numerous penalties, and... Ben holding the ball too long with pump fakes while hobbled on a bad leg.

tony hipchest
11-30-2010, 11:35 AM
What was this thread supposed to be about again?

"boats and hoes"

oops... i mean motorcycles and hoes.

zulater
11-30-2010, 11:42 AM
Poor blocking, bad tackling, numerous penalties, and... Ben holding the ball too long with pump fakes while hobbled on a bad leg.

He was waiting for a receiver to uncover, he's done it all his career, more often than not to good result. That's one of the reasons this team won SB XLIII despite the lack of an elite o-line and running game.

SteelMember
11-30-2010, 11:54 AM
He was waiting for a receiver to uncover, he's done it all his career, more often than not to good result. That's one of the reasons this team won SB XLIII despite the lack of an elite o-line and running game.

I'm guessing the ellipsis was ineffective at separating the sarcasm.

Legitimate, legitimate, legitimate... no so much.

I'll work on it. :noidea:


He didn't have his best game, but I think he was far from being a goat. Besides, if you go this long in a thread, your bound to get off topic.

ricardisimo
11-30-2010, 05:09 PM
My stats are more recent and they don't consider age or emotion. Number of sacks per season, % completion, number of yard rushing, nb of 1st downs, red zone efficiency, stuff like that. The "best rookie" kind of stat doesn't matter to me. They're impressive on a resume but they don't help rank him amongst his peers in a particular year.
Fact of the matter, since 2007 his numbers went down. He was much more mobile and accurate in 04-05-06 than he's been ever since. Arians changed his whole style and not in a positive way, in my opinion.
I don't think Ben has any claim at being the top QB in the League. Not by a mile. None of his numbers supports it. Like I said, he's a top 5, no more, and yes, I believe that Rivers (not Romo, Rodgers or Flacco) is a better QB than him. After this season, I'll see where Vick stands but he's moving up really fast.
Thank you, Mr. Spock, but seriously... are you out of your Vulcan mind?? :chuckle: How can you claim that you restrict your self to stats, and only recent stats, and then discard Romo and Rodgers? Most of their numbers are better than Ben's, especially more recently. Not by much, but they are.

Live long and prosper. http://smiliesftw.com/x/Star_Trek_Assimilate_by_avatar5123.gif

MasterOfPuppets
11-30-2010, 05:41 PM
"boats and hoes"

oops... i mean motorcycles and hoes.

http://otoharley.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/harley-davidson-with-sexy-girls-2.jpg

cubanstogie
11-30-2010, 05:48 PM
people can choose to make stats work for or against, bottom line is wins and rings. TD to interception ratio big stat for QB IMO. If Rivers is so great then why are they 6-5 in the worst division in football with the so called number 1 D and number 1 Offense. It must be Arians fault if thats possible. With SD' offensive line Ben would have a field day. People used to jumb on the Romo, Schaub Cutler, and even Garrard bandwagon a couple of years ago, now its Rivers. Only time will tell it already has with the above mentioned.

plenewken
12-01-2010, 07:29 AM
Thank you, Mr. Spock, but seriously... are you out of your Vulcan mind?? :chuckle: How can you claim that you restrict your self to stats, and only recent stats, and then discard Romo and Rodgers? Most of their numbers are better than Ben's, especially more recently. Not by much, but they are.

Live long and prosper. http://smiliesftw.com/x/Star_Trek_Assimilate_by_avatar5123.gif

I'm not discarding them. I place them behind Ben, in the top 10, they're not top 5 material IMO.
Speaking of more recent numbers, don't forget Vick, I'm just saying ..........

ricardisimo
12-01-2010, 03:28 PM
I'm not discarding them. I place them behind Ben, in the top 10, they're not top 5 material IMO.
Speaking of more recent numbers, don't forget Vick, I'm just saying ..........
:huh: You've got to be kidding me... Vick has one monster game, and several really good games, and he's now included in the discussion? You must be a fantasy footballer, there's no other explanation. I remember a game Kordell had against the Ravens way back when, he threw for three and ran for two, and I got somewhere near 70 or 80 points out of him alone that week. I guess he should be in the running for "Best QB" as well.

I enjoy watching Vick play as much as the next guy, but you're clearly getting ahead of yourself on that one.

urgle burgle
12-01-2010, 05:23 PM
stats can go for you or against you, depends on how you want to play the argument. when we had good olines, and ben was younger, he passed less, and took less sacks. we also had a good group of vet recvrs. now, its a mix and match of an older, slower hines, with young inexperienced recvrs. on top of that our olines have sucked, and we then got arians as our oc. yes, ben holds onto the ball too long, always has, different reasons during different yrs. he wins, is clutch, throws few picks. even in super bowl 40, he made some clutch plays that helped win us that game. not to include the amazing playoff run he had(how soon we forget). we could be this, or could be that team, but we are what we are, and we are still 8-3, lets see what happens.

thumper
12-01-2010, 05:44 PM
Turd award to: coaching, play calling on O. I know the Bills have a poorly
rated run D, but endlessly just running the ball every 1st and 2nd down
was retarded. Especially in OT. Leaving Ben only to pass on super obvious
passing downs is f----g moronic. As far as Gay and the other DBs screwing up -
they suck in non-slot defense and were playing out of position. Gay is a good
slot DB, but sucks on the outside. We knew this already, which is why McFadden
was brought back to this team to begin with.

plenewken
12-01-2010, 07:15 PM
:huh: You've got to be kidding me... Vick has one monster game, and several really good games, and he's now included in the discussion? You must be a fantasy footballer, there's no other explanation. I remember a game Kordell had against the Ravens way back when, he threw for three and ran for two, and I got somewhere near 70 or 80 points out of him alone that week. I guess he should be in the running for "Best QB" as well.

I enjoy watching Vick play as much as the next guy, but you're clearly getting ahead of yourself on that one.

You should look at Vick's numbers this year, dude.

MattsMe
12-01-2010, 07:26 PM
Turd award to: coaching, play calling on O. I know the Bills have a poorly
rated run D, but endlessly just running the ball every 1st and 2nd down
was retarded. Especially in OT. Leaving Ben only to pass on super obvious
passing downs is f----g moronic. As far as Gay and the other DBs screwing up -
they suck in non-slot defense and were playing out of position. Gay is a good
slot DB, but sucks on the outside. We knew this already, which is why McFadden
was brought back to this team to begin with.

Are you dictating a telegram when you post? If so, you're putting the stops in all the wrong places.

urgle burgle
12-01-2010, 07:40 PM
Are you dictating a telegram when you post? If so, you're putting the stops in all the wrong places.

hahahahahahahahahhahahah.......nice.

ricardisimo
12-02-2010, 12:48 AM
Are you dictating a telegram when you post? If so, you're putting the stops in all the wrong places.
Greetings Messrs.West and Gordon STOP
President Grant needs you to capture Dr. Miguelito Loveless STOP
President Juarez' life is in terrible danger STOP
Beware of the traitorous General Grimm STOP