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View Full Version : Terry Bradshaw: Top 10 QBs under 30


steelax04
11-30-2010, 12:32 PM
RANK QUARTERBACK TEAM AGE RATING 2010 TEAM RECORD
1 Philip Rivers Chargers 28 104.9 6-5
2 Ben Roethlisberger Steelers 28 99.1 8-3
3 Aaron Rodgers Packers 26 97.4 7-4
4 Matt Ryan Falcons 25 94.4 9-2
5 Sam Bradford Rams 23 82.0 5-6
6 Joe Flacco Ravens 25 93.2 8-3
7 Mark Sanchez Jets 24 81.9 9-2
8 Josh Freeman Buccaneers 22 89.3 7-4
9 Eli Manning Giants 29 90.3 7-4
10 Matt Schaub Texans 29 92.6 5-6


Mr Rivers over Ben for the top spot. /discuss :popcorn:


http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2010/11/terry_bradshaws_top_10_qbs_under_30_jay_cutler.htm l

fat4jc
11-30-2010, 12:36 PM
RANK QUARTERBACK TEAM AGE RATING 2010 TEAM RECORD
1 Philip Rivers Chargers 28 104.9 6-5
2 Ben Roethlisberger Steelers 28 99.1 8-3
3 Aaron Rodgers Packers 26 97.4 7-4
4 Matt Ryan Falcons 25 94.4 9-2
5 Sam Bradford Rams 23 82.0 5-6
6 Joe Flacco Ravens 25 93.2 8-3
7 Mark Sanchez Jets 24 81.9 9-2
8 Josh Freeman Buccaneers 22 89.3 7-4
9 Eli Manning Giants 29 90.3 7-4
10 Matt Schaub Texans 29 92.6 5-6


Mr Rivers over Ben for the top spot. /discuss :popcorn:


http://blogs.suntimes.com/bears/2010/11/terry_bradshaws_top_10_qbs_under_30_jay_cutler.htm l

I think the real ? here is why is Rodgers #3?

SteelMember
11-30-2010, 12:40 PM
If we keep narrowing the field with qualifiers, I'm sure we could get Ben to the top of the list.

thumper
11-30-2010, 01:13 PM
I'm fairly shocked he has Ben at 2, to be honest. And, seriously, yes, Ben won
two rings, but Marino never won a ring. I think just watching them play, I can
make an argument for Rivers. There is a lot more to winning a ring than JUST
the QB play alone - i.e. entire rest of the team, over all talent, intangibles, coach
staff, etc. An argument can be made that if Rivers didn't have garbage head
coach, he would have won some rings by now. It's been proven 1000 times over,
if you don't have a legit head coach, you can't win the big one. Norv is a good guy,
good OC, but has never appeared to be a legit head coach.

Whodis
11-30-2010, 01:20 PM
Rivers is having a hell of a year. I'll reserve my thoughts on Ben until the end of the season.

toughsticks87
11-30-2010, 01:40 PM
I hate Marsha, but he should probably be on that list.

SteelCityMom
11-30-2010, 01:43 PM
I hate Marsha, but he should probably be on that list.

He's over 30. This is just Terry's list for QBs under 30.

toughsticks87
11-30-2010, 01:44 PM
He's over 30. This is just Terry's list for QBs under 30.

Duh, stupid me :doh:

theplatypus
11-30-2010, 01:50 PM
If you track down the video on Fox Sports the scenario put forth is something along the lines of, if you were a new team entering the league and were allowed to select one young qb from any team who would you take.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
11-30-2010, 01:53 PM
I hate Marsha, but he should probably be on that list.

He's 33. Anyways, Ben should be #1. He's one of only 2 guys on this list with a ring, let alone 2 of them. I would also make the case that Rivers has a lot more weapons. Ben has way better feet and more playmaking ability as well. Rivers is very mediocre (if even that) in the playoffs....58.5% completion, 8 TD, 9 INTs with a 3-4 starting record. Ben, on the other hand has 61.9% completion, 15 TD, 12 INTs with an 8-2 starting record.

plenewken
11-30-2010, 02:43 PM
He's 33. Anyways, Ben should be #1. He's one of only 2 guys on this list with a ring, let alone 2 of them. I would also make the case that Rivers has a lot more weapons. Ben has way better feet and more playmaking ability as well. Rivers is very mediocre (if even that) in the playoffs....58.5% completion, 8 TD, 9 INTs with a 3-4 starting record. Ben, on the other hand has 61.9% completion, 15 TD, 12 INTs with an 8-2 starting record.

Good thing Michael Vick just turned 30 otherwise he'd smoke them all. He's having a heck of a year, so far.
106.0 QB rating
13TDs - 1 INT - >63% completion
1941 yds in 8 games played
419 yds rushing - 5TDs

How could Ben have an 8-2 starting record when he missed 4 games? His starting record is 5-2.

As for his 2 rings, we won't hold his pathetic 22.6 QB rating during SB XL against him, ok? We'll just keep the good and forget the awful. <sarcasm off>

Atlanta Dan
11-30-2010, 02:56 PM
Until Phillip Rivers makes some noise in the playoffs he will be Peyton Manning pre-2006 - throws a pretty pass but something always going wrong in January unless it involves playing the Colts - his performance against the Jets last season was a bust

I agree Rivers is a talent, as does Bill Cowher, who would have drafted Rivers iof given the chance in 2004. But this is not the BCS or Heisman Trophy balloting - all of these QBs are wealthy beyond their wildest dreams and are measured by how they perform in the post-season

Atlanta Dan
11-30-2010, 03:05 PM
I'm fairly shocked he has Ben at 2, to be honest. And, seriously, yes, Ben won
two rings, but Marino never won a ring. I think just watching them play, I can
make an argument for Rivers. There is a lot more to winning a ring than JUST
the QB play alone - i.e. entire rest of the team, over all talent, intangibles, coach
staff, etc. An argument can be made that if Rivers didn't have garbage head
coach, he would have won some rings by now. It's been proven 1000 times over,
if you don't have a legit head coach, you can't win the big one. Norv is a good guy,
good OC, but has never appeared to be a legit head coach.

A great QB usually makes the HC rather than the other way around (e.g. - Shanahan never won boo without Elway and Belichick did not light it up in Cleveland without Brady). If Rivers is that great he shoudl be able to overcome Marty and Norv. Only multiple Lombardis winner who overcame mediocre QB talent was Joe Gibbs (Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien).

As for being pulled down by what you have around you, hard to say Roethlisberger has benefited by having a great offensive line and the superior intellect of Bruce Arians dialing up the play calls.

Bottom line is this is not the 1970s when a QB such as Bradshaw played with 8 other Hall of Famers - every team has weaknesses these days - Chargers have been relatively loaded with talent since Rivers took the wheel

TRH
11-30-2010, 03:47 PM
that's ok, i'll still take Ben over Rivers.

Yeah, Vick is not under 30 so he's not on there but whats up with him this year? Looks like the second coming of Joe Montana.

SH-Rock
11-30-2010, 04:00 PM
I can't deny that. Philip Rivers is an absolute monster. Maybe Ben is being held back by Arians.

GMU Steeler
11-30-2010, 04:01 PM
Good thing Michael Vick just turned 30 otherwise he'd smoke them all. He's having a heck of a year, so far.
106.0 QB rating
13TDs - 1 INT - >63% completion
1941 yds in 8 games played
419 yds rushing - 5TDs

How could Ben have an 8-2 starting record when he missed 4 games? His starting record is 5-2.

As for his 2 rings, we won't hold his pathetic 22.6 QB rating during SB XL against him, ok? We'll just keep the good and forget the awful. <sarcasm off>

He said that Ben's career record in the playoffs is 8-2 man not his record this year. Yeah he was awful in Super Bowl XL no doubt but he was great in the games leading up to it as he was in the games leading up to and including the last SUper Bowl win. I'll take Ben over Rivers for the playoff abiltiies alone.

GMU Steeler
11-30-2010, 04:02 PM
I'll take Ben over Rivers. Rivers is very good if not great but he hasn't shown anything in the playoffs. For that reason I can't list him ahead of Ben.

plenewken
11-30-2010, 04:36 PM
He said that Ben's career record in the playoffs is 8-2 man not his record this year. Yeah he was awful in Super Bowl XL no doubt but he was great in the games leading up to it as he was in the games leading up to and including the last SUper Bowl win. I'll take Ben over Rivers for the playoff abiltiies alone.

Oh, I got it now. It's playoffs record, not season record.
I'm fine with Ben although I wouldn't mind less sacks. I'm essentially frustrated with what Arians asks him to do.

Set-Man
11-30-2010, 05:06 PM
If I am looking at overall skill and competence, then I would take Rodgers in a heartbeat. But as a fit to our team (ie: no offensive line), Ben is the best. I just wish he would learn to throw the football away once in a while.

cloppbeast
11-30-2010, 05:21 PM
Ben was lucky enough to be drafted by the Steelers and won 2 Super Bowls with them. Otherwise, he would probably be like 5th on this list.

I'm not saying the man's not good, he's just not the second best on this list. I'd put him behind Rivers, Rodgers, and Matty Ice at least.

MDSteel15
11-30-2010, 05:22 PM
I'm fairly shocked he has Ben at 2, to be honest. And, seriously, yes, Ben won
two rings, but Marino never won a ring. I think just watching them play, I can
make an argument for Rivers. There is a lot more to winning a ring than JUST
the QB play alone - i.e. entire rest of the team, over all talent, intangibles, coach
staff, etc. An argument can be made that if Rivers didn't have garbage head
coach, he would have won some rings by now. It's been proven 1000 times over,
if you don't have a legit head coach, you can't win the big one. Norv is a good guy,
good OC, but has never appeared to be a legit head coach.

Barry Switzer got a ring! George Seifert, too...

GMU Steeler
11-30-2010, 05:23 PM
Oh, I got it now. It's playoffs record, not season record.
I'm fine with Ben although I wouldn't mind less sacks. I'm essentially frustrated with what Arians asks him to do.

All good. Yeah, that's probably the part about his game I like least but then again that kinda goes with his ability to extend plays which is something I really like about his games. And I think nearly all of us are frustrated about what Arians asks him to do. Hope we get a new OC or a change in philosophy next year though I will say that having a less than fully healthy O-Line has hurt too.

cloppbeast
11-30-2010, 05:24 PM
Barry Switzer got a ring! George Seifert, too...

So did Brad Johnson.

MDSteel15
11-30-2010, 05:28 PM
that's ok, i'll still take Ben over Rivers.

Yeah, Vick is not under 30 so he's not on there but whats up with him this year? Looks like the second coming of Joe Montana.

PLEASE!!!! Don't ever insult Joe like that.... :doh:

MDSteel15
11-30-2010, 05:31 PM
So did Brad Johnson.

Brad Johnson was a player, not a coach! So for that, so did Trent Dilfer.... :toofunny:

ricardisimo
11-30-2010, 05:37 PM
Oh, I got it now. It's playoffs record, not season record.
I'm fine with Ben although I wouldn't mind less sacks. I'm essentially frustrated with what Arians asks him to do.
No, it's not. It's exactly what it says it is above the chart: "2010 Team Record".

plenewken
11-30-2010, 05:38 PM
All good. Yeah, that's probably the part about his game I like least but then again that kinda goes with his ability to extend plays which is something I really like about his games. And I think nearly all of us are frustrated about what Arians asks him to do. Hope we get a new OC or a change in philosophy next year though I will say that having a less than fully healthy O-Line has hurt too.

Yes it hurts but Arians knows that our O-Line is depleted so why isn't he changing his game plan accordingly?
I don't see any difference between his calls in week 1 and in week 11, despite all the injuries.
I hope he goes, even if we win the SB.

ricardisimo
11-30-2010, 05:39 PM
Barry Switzer got a ring! George Seifert, too...
Exactly Atlanta Dan's point, I think. They had Aikman and Young making them look like geniuses... at least for long enough to get a ring.

MDSteel15
11-30-2010, 05:39 PM
Now, for all of you saying I' take ehis one and that one, look at the list:

1 Philip Rivers Chargers 28 104.9 6-5
2 Ben Roethlisberger Steelers 28 99.1 8-3
3 Aaron Rodgers Packers 26 97.4 7-4
4 Matt Ryan Falcons 25 94.4 9-2
5 Sam Bradford Rams 23 82.0 5-6
6 Joe Flacco Ravens 25 93.2 8-3
7 Mark Sanchez Jets 24 81.9 9-2
8 Josh Freeman Buccaneers 22 89.3 7-4
9 Eli Manning Giants 29 90.3 7-4
10 Matt Schaub Texans 29 92.6 5-6

You put Ben behind Indy or New Englands front lines and he is easily best! Why? You can say what you want about him holding the ball but Peyton and Brady can stand back there all night and not get touched! Half the time so does Flacco, Ryan and Sanchez! So don't, DON'T tell me he holds it too long all the time because the o-line for the most part is tragic... The next 2 drafts should be nothing but O-line, D-line and DBs! Until we get the dam plugged.... And until the little hot headed a$$ Rivers proves anything, he can't be our backup :drink:

MDSteel15
11-30-2010, 05:42 PM
Exactly Atlanta Dan's point, I think. They had Aikman and Young making them look like geniuses... at least for long enough to get a ring.

In my opinion Young is overrated! And Tray had a monster o-line, 2 very good WRS and a great TE that we gave them! Oh, and Emmitt. :noidea:

cloppbeast
11-30-2010, 06:06 PM
You put Ben behind Indy or New Englands front lines and he is easily best! Why? You can say what you want about him holding the ball but Peyton and Brady can stand back there all night and not get touched! Half the time so does Flacco, Ryan and Sanchez! So don't, DON'T tell me he holds it too long all the time because the o-line for the most part is tragic... The next 2 drafts should be nothing but O-line, D-line and DBs! Until we get the dam plugged.... And until the little hot headed a$$ Rivers proves anything, he can't be our backup :drink:

I want to point out, that I haven't heard anybody say that Ben is a jive turkey. Just some of us Steelers fans don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's better than most starting quarterback's in the league, just not elite.

I'm getting tired of Ben apologists using the o-line as a crutch. If Ben had the greatest offensive line in the world, less people would complain that he holds onto the ball to long. He wouldn't get sacked us much. In that case, by all means, Ben should hang onto the ball and find the open man.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the greatest offensive line. Understanding this, an intelligent quarterback would learn to throw the ball sooner - this is exactly what Brady or Manning would do. They would do better in our system than Ben, not because they're more athletically gifted or elusive, but because they would be intelligent enough to pass the damn ball.

Manning and Brady are more intelligent than Roethlisberger, and they're both better passers. Ben's advantage is his brute strength and ability to evade the rush - Manning and Brady do not need this skill because they know to pass the ball before it's necessary.

Fire Arians
11-30-2010, 06:09 PM
phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion.

rivers is overrated, when was the last time he ever won a game when it you know, meant something? The only player i'd MAYBE rank over ben is rodgers on that list.

ricardisimo
11-30-2010, 06:18 PM
I want to point out, that I haven't heard anybody say that Ben is a jive turkey. Just some of us Steelers fans don't think he's the greatest thing since sliced bread. He's better than most starting quarterback's in the league, just not elite.

I'm getting tired of Ben apologists using the o-line as a crutch. If Ben had the greatest offensive line in the world, less people would complain that he holds onto the ball to long. He wouldn't get sacked us much. In that case, by all means, Ben should hang onto the ball and find the open man.

Unfortunately, he doesn't have the greatest offensive line. Understanding this, an intelligent quarterback would learn to throw the ball sooner - this is exactly what Brady or Manning would do. They would do better in our system than Ben, not because they're more athletically gifted or elusive, but because they would be intelligent enough to pass the damn ball.

Manning and Brady are more intelligent than Roethlisberger, and they're both better passers. Ben's advantage is his brute strength and ability to evade the rush - Manning and Brady do not need this skill because they know to pass the ball before it's necessary.
But he is elite. Is he the cat's meow? No. I think in person he's probably a sack of shit in his daily life. I just think it's ridiculous, looking at how all of the QBs mentioned here, stat-wise, are in a tight clump right at the very top of the records and rankings, and yet you draw this imaginary line in the list just to exclude Ben. Why? It doesn't make any sense. If he were in the teens or twenties or even lower on all of those same rankings, then you could legitimately discount those SB wins as some sort of anomaly. But he's not down low in the stats.

Again... all of these guys are top-5, top-10 at worst in any meaningful list, many of those lists being all-time lists, not just actives. So, any of them have a legitimate claim at being "the best". But you have decided, in your wisdom, that Ben doesn't make the cut, mostly just because he takes a lot of sacks. It's arbitrary. They all have strengths and weaknesses, but taking sacks is the only thing that matters to you, not comeback victories, not wins, not playoff and SB record, not yards/completion, not blahblahblah... etc.

Why?

ricardisimo
11-30-2010, 06:21 PM
phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion.

rivers is overrated, when was the last time he ever won a game when it you know, meant something? The only player i'd MAYBE rank over ben is rodgers on that list.
When was the last time Rodgers won a meaningful game?

Fire Arians
11-30-2010, 06:23 PM
When was the last time Rodgers won a meaningful game?

he's started in a lot less games than rivers so i'll give him the benefit of the doubt for now

thumper
11-30-2010, 06:27 PM
phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion.

rivers is overrated, when was the last time he ever won a game when it you know, meant something? The only player i'd MAYBE rank over ben is rodgers on that list.

Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson - 2 combined SB wins.

Marino - none.

I guess Dilfer and Johnson are better QBs than Marino ever was. Using your
"logic" that makes it so.

Fire Arians
11-30-2010, 06:29 PM
Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson - 2 combined SB wins.

Marino - none.

I guess Dilfer and Johnson are better QBs than Marino ever was. Using your
"logic" that makes it so.

marino was a choke artist. yeah he looked good when it didnt count, and horrible when it did. just saying.

a qb that will get to the playoffs every year but never win a championship is like a girl rubbing on your dick all night but not sleeping with you. i'll take a qb with shitty stats but clutch in big game situations

but to answer your question, that's an extreme scenario. but hell, i'll take ben over marino or peyton manning for sure, or any of the other good stat choke artists like carson palmer, phillip rivers, etc

zulater
11-30-2010, 06:46 PM
But he is elite. Is he the cat's meow? No. I think in person he's probably a sack of shit in his daily life. I just think it's ridiculous, looking at how all of the QBs mentioned here, stat-wise, are in a tight clump right at the very top of the records and rankings, and yet you draw this imaginary line in the list just to exclude Ben. Why? It doesn't make any sense. If he were in the teens or twenties or even lower on all of those same rankings, then you could legitimately discount those SB wins as some sort of anomaly. But he's not down low in the stats.

Again... all of these guys are top-5, top-10 at worst in any meaningful list, many of those lists being all-time lists, not just actives. So, any of them have a legitimate claim at being "the best". But you have decided, in your wisdom, that Ben doesn't make the cut, mostly just because he takes a lot of sacks. It's arbitrary. They all have strengths and weaknesses, but taking sacks is the only thing that matters to you, not comeback victories, not wins, not playoff and SB record, not yards/completion, not blahblahblah... etc.

Why?

Agenda driven? This dude is as predisposed aganst Ben as Goodell is against James Harrison. He wont admit it, he'll argue it until he's blue in the face ( or fingers, lol) but it's pretty obvious to the rest of us, the guy just dislikes Ben, and the way he plays the game, and nothing Ben will ever do will change that.

His loss, if in fact he really is a Steelers fan.

:coffee:

MDSteel15
11-30-2010, 06:48 PM
Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson - 2 combined SB wins.

Marino - none.

I guess Dilfer and Johnson are better QBs than Marino ever was. Using your
"logic" that makes it so.

Marino had no legit RB so all you trully needed to do was sit back and wait.

zulater
11-30-2010, 06:49 PM
I'm fairly shocked he has Ben at 2, to be honest. And, seriously, yes, Ben won
two rings, but Marino never won a ring. I think just watching them play, I can
make an argument for Rivers. There is a lot more to winning a ring than JUST
the QB play alone - i.e. entire rest of the team, over all talent, intangibles, coach
staff, etc. An argument can be made that if Rivers didn't have garbage head
coach, he would have won some rings by now. It's been proven 1000 times over,
if you don't have a legit head coach, you can't win the big one. Norv is a good guy,
good OC, but has never appeared to be a legit head coach.

I'd love to see Ben behind that caliber of o-line for a season or two. ( Chargers) Imo a poor offensive line is as hard for a qb to overcome as a mediocre coach, maybe even moreso.

zulater
11-30-2010, 06:53 PM
Good thing Michael Vick just turned 30 otherwise he'd smoke them all. He's having a heck of a year, so far.
106.0 QB rating
13TDs - 1 INT - >63% completion
1941 yds in 8 games played
419 yds rushing - 5TDs

How could Ben have an 8-2 starting record when he missed 4 games? His starting record is 5-2.

As for his 2 rings, we won't hold his pathetic 22.6 QB rating during SB XL against him, ok? We'll just keep the good and forget the awful. <sarcasm off>



Oh yeah I forgot the Steelers went to SB XL by invitation, it had nothing to do with playing 3 strong road games in the AFC playoffs to get there. :doh:

zulater
11-30-2010, 06:54 PM
Barry Switzer got a ring! George Seifert, too...


:applaudit:

tanda10506
11-30-2010, 09:40 PM
Ben's definetly the best on that list, but that list is not a list of the absolute best.

MasterOfPuppets
12-01-2010, 04:14 AM
I'm fairly shocked he has Ben at 2, to be honest. And, seriously, yes, Ben won
two rings, but Marino never won a ring. I think just watching them play, I can
make an argument for Rivers. There is a lot more to winning a ring than JUST
the QB play alone - i.e. entire rest of the team, over all talent, intangibles, coach
staff, etc. An argument can be made that if Rivers didn't have garbage head
coach, he would have won some rings by now. It's been proven 1000 times over,
if you don't have a legit head coach, you can't win the big one. Norv is a good guy,
good OC, but has never appeared to be a legit head coach.
sorry not buyin it. sure it takes a team effort to win , but its not like rivers is on the browns. since rivers had been with the chargers he's had at some point....
good regular season records.... if you can put up 12 wins in a season , why can't you win just 2 playoff games in a row ?
top running game ... remember when LT was the best running back in the game ? i know LT went down hill his last few years, but rivers was handing off to him when he was at the top of his game as well.
solid line. .. they weren't much last year but rivers certainly has enjoyed much better pass protection than ben has most of his career.
top 10 defenses. ...yes they have had top 10's since he's been there. besides , i believe the colts D was 24th the year they won the SB
best receiving TE in the game ...

plenewken
12-01-2010, 08:11 AM
Oh yeah I forgot the Steelers went to SB XL by invitation, it had nothing to do with playing 3 strong road games in the AFC playoffs to get there. :doh:

It had to do with the Steelers playing 3 strong road games in the playoffs and Ben playing well but it had also to do with the Steelers playing solid when Ben stunk up the joint real bad in the last and most important game.

I laugh when I read stuff like "phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion."

4xSBChamps
12-01-2010, 08:34 AM
Marino had no legit RB...

... and, despite all the hype about Shula being an elite coach, in 12 seasons with Marino, he never built an even 'average' quality defense which could compliment his QB's ability & take some of the pressure off the Offensive unit:
with Marino, Shula's Fishies went 132/87, for a winning percentage of just-over 60%, slightly-worse than a 10-6 average, so imagine how bad Miami would've been without #13

madtowndrunkard
12-01-2010, 09:10 AM
I'd take Rogers #1.

Yea Ben has 2 rings. He played a big part in getting those rings - duh he is the QB. But Ben did have an elite defense to back him up....not to mention 2 stud WR's and a solid running game. Put Rogers on our team and we'd be the best team in the NFL - PERIOD. Rogers can run....but he has the ability to get rid of the ball quickly. He can scan the entire field way faster then Ben can...and hit his WR's in stride and he does this consistently. With Rogers on our team our O-line would look awesome. Our running game would be better because of the increased threat to throw the ball and do it quickly.

Ben is clutch....he usually gets focused when he needs to be. I think the league though realizes now that you cannot go into a prevent against Ben. You just have to bring pressure....give him time and he'll kill you... he'll hold the ball too long....everyone knows it and that's why he gets sacked so often. Our offense right now is struggling because Ben has not been able to adjust to what defenses are doing to him. Arians has not helped the situation either. Our 2nd to last offensive drive against the Bills was a great example. It was 3rd and 6 deep in our own territory. Ben takes a 7 step drop....while his WR's run deep routes. The RB has to stay in and block....Ben waits and waits and waits.....sack. If all you need is 6 yards why the @#$&^ are you running deep routes trying to go for the HR? Run short quick routes....get a WR or TE the ball just 4-6 yards down field....they'll get the first. Either Ben is not capable of throwing an accurate / quick short pass OR Arians is the worst OC in the league. We do this on 3rd and short fairly often. It's maddening.

MDSteel15
12-01-2010, 09:41 AM
... and, despite all the hype about Shula being an elite coach, in 12 seasons with Marino, he never built an even 'average' quality defense which could compliment his QB's ability & take some of the pressure off the Offensive unit:
with Marino, Shula's Fishies went 132/87, for a winning percentage of just-over 60%, slightly-worse than a 10-6 average, so imagine how bad Miami would've been without #13

Totally agree with you there!

cloppbeast
12-01-2010, 10:12 AM
phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion.

rivers is overrated, when was the last time he ever won a game when it you know, meant something? The only player i'd MAYBE rank over ben is rodgers on that list.

Logic at it's finest. :doh:

cloppbeast
12-01-2010, 10:18 AM
This is an under 30 list people, meaning there's a lot of football yet to be played.

John Elway didn't win Super Bowls until his late 30s. There's still time for Rivers and Rodgers.

This is only Rodgers' third year as a starter on a team ravaged by injuries year in and year out. This is Rivers' fifth year as a starter on a team coached by Norv Turner. They'll win play-off games and Super Bowls before long.

Rick5895
12-01-2010, 12:51 PM
phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion.

rivers is overrated, when was the last time he ever won a game when it you know, meant something? The only player i'd MAYBE rank over ben is rodgers on that list.

First off I would say I agree about rodgers, but IMO Ben is still higher.

In 2004 when the pre- draft talk had the Steelers taking Rivers, I cringed. I thought that Ben was the best to come out that year, certanly had the intagibles I like coming from a MAC school. When Rivers was taken 4th and then traded to Chargers i was ecstatic.

We have won 2 titles with Ben and we will win at least 2 more with him, above all else Ben makes a play or two in each game no matter how poor he is playing that helps us win.
In super Bowl XL making that block on El's TD to ward was huge. That is what sets Ben apart from everyone else. No matter what kind of a buffoon he has been away from the field, once the pads go on, he is the ultimate team player and does whatever it takes, sacrificing whatever it takes to win.
IMO THAT IS WHAT MAKES BEN #1
:tt04:

bobby jr
12-01-2010, 01:15 PM
Ben has rings but let's face it he played poorly in one Super Bowl and didn't do much to help his team win that one. If anything they won despite him. He deserves to be in the top 10 but not number 1.

Anyway I'm glad Flacco is on the list, he came of age in the October 2010 game in Pittsburgh when he led the Ravens to the winning TD. The Steelers had come from behind and taken the lead and the crowd at Heinz field was at their loudest, but Joe Cool calmly led the Ravens to the TD which has helped to define the Ravens season.

ricardisimo
12-01-2010, 04:09 PM
It had to do with the Steelers playing 3 strong road games in the playoffs and Ben playing well but it had also to do with the Steelers playing solid when Ben stunk up the joint real bad in the last and most important game.

I laugh when I read stuff like "phillip rivers - 0 super bowl wins, ben roethlisberger - 2 superbowl wins. end of discussion."
Laugh away, but big game wins are fairly quantifiable. There's folks who can do it (Ben, normally) and folks who can't (Romo certainly, Rivers as well). I'm waiting to hear how your Vulcan logic and complete lack of emotion leads you to the conclusion that Ben is somehow out of the running for the top spot.
Logic at it's finest. :doh:
Which means you're not going to answer my earlier question: Why can you magically draw a line below Rodgers' name, and Rivers', but above Ben's, eliminating him from the discussion of who's best?

Once again, I'm not convinced Roethlisberger really is the "best QB in the league," or whatever. There's clearly a lot of personal preference (and yes, emotion and whimsy, no matter what bizarre claims plenewken might make) involved in such a declaration. I'm just dumbfounded that a guy with Ben's credentials - at or near the top of the charts in so many areas - can be dismissed from the discussion in such a cavalier fashion as you two have done here.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
12-01-2010, 04:29 PM
Yes Ben had a below average performance in Super Bowl XL. He wasn't asked to do much with his arm. But keep in mind he was the second youngest QB to ever play in such a huge game (the pressure was apparently too much for a very young Dan Marino as well). However, Ben made some very big plays...a big pass to Ward on the 1 yard line, a TD run, a couple other big scrambles, and of course the block on El's TD. And yes he has a poor O-line and he also holds the ball sometimes. However, I would never say he holds the ball "too long" because every now and then those kinds of plays take what would've been an incomplete pass on a throw away to a monster gain/touchdown. Also, if you notice, Ben has learned when are times to not take sacks. One good example is in the Buffalo game when the Steelers were in FG range and he simply threw it away to prevent losing yards.

cloppbeast
12-01-2010, 04:54 PM
Which means you're not going to answer my earlier question: Why can you magically draw a line below Rodgers' name, and Rivers', but above Ben's, eliminating him from the discussion of who's best?

Once again, I'm not convinced Roethlisberger really is the "best QB in the league," or whatever. There's clearly a lot of personal preference (and yes, emotion and whimsy, no matter what bizarre claims plenewken might make) involved in such a declaration. I'm just dumbfounded that a guy with Ben's credentials - at or near the top of the charts in so many areas - can be dismissed from the discussion in such a cavalier fashion as you two have done here.

I'm not eliminating Ben from the discussion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm questioning the logic behind using Super Bowl wins as the only qualifier. With that logic, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Doug Williams would be better than Dan Marino. Even those who think Ben is the greates can agree this logic is ridiculous.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
12-01-2010, 05:22 PM
It's worth noting that 1 Super Bowl win can be a fluke...2 never is. There are ten QBs in the history of the NFL to win 2 of them...

Bradshaw
Montana
Aikman
Brady
Elway
Roethlisberger
Griese
Plunkett
Staubach
Starr

They're all Hall of Famers minus Plunkett.

MDSteel15
12-01-2010, 05:28 PM
[QUOTE=cloppbeast;873136]
John Elway didn't win Super Bowls until his late 30s. There's still time for Rivers and Rodgers.

QUOTE]

Elway would never had won if it were not for Terrell Davis.....PERIOD

ricardisimo
12-01-2010, 05:43 PM
It's worth noting that 1 Super Bowl win can be a fluke...2 never is. There are ten QBs in the history of the NFL to win 2 of them...

Bradshaw
Montana
Aikman
Brady
Elway
Roethlisberger
Griese
Plunkett
Staubach
Starr

They're all Hall of Famers minus Plunkett.
Very good point. Plunkett wasn't bad, by the way. And we're getting a little ahead of ourselves calling Brady and Ben Hall-of-Famers, likely as it seems.

plenewken
12-01-2010, 05:44 PM
Laugh away, but big game wins are fairly quantifiable. There's folks who can do it (Ben, normally) and folks who can't (Romo certainly, Rivers as well). I'm waiting to hear how your Vulcan logic and complete lack of emotion leads you to the conclusion that Ben is somehow out of the running for the top spot.


Out of the running for 1st? I never said he couldn't make it. Who knows? At this point, he's not #1 (and he never was) but if he could make it, that'd be great for him, the Steelers ........... and us.

And if he doesn't and stays at his current ranking, there's nothing wrong with being a top 5 QB in the League. I know at least 27 guys who would like to be in his shoes.

By the way, how many top ranked players the Steelers have? Polamalu is one and I don't see another. I'd say we have several top 5 but only one #1. That's already pretty impressive, no?

ricardisimo
12-01-2010, 05:50 PM
I'm not eliminating Ben from the discussion. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I'm questioning the logic behind using Super Bowl wins as the only qualifier. With that logic, Trent Dilfer, Brad Johnson, and Doug Williams would be better than Dan Marino. Even those who think Ben is the greates can agree this logic is ridiculous.
It was made pretty clear that Super Bowl wins was just one stat among many, albeit a pretty important one. And again, it's ridiculous to bring those names into the discussion. In what meaningful listing are any of them top-five or top-ten?

I have to say, it seems pretty clear to me that it is in fact you who is obsessed with just one stat over all others: sacks. Everyone else might indeed be inflating the SB wins, but we're looking at Ben's entire body of work as well. For you, he takes too many sacks and the discussion is over. It's just weird.

ricardisimo
12-01-2010, 05:55 PM
Out of the running for 1st? I never said he couldn't make it. Who knows? At this point, he's not #1 (and he never was) but if he could make it, that'd be great for him, the Steelers ........... and us.

And if he doesn't and stays at his current ranking, there's nothing wrong with being a top 5 QB in the League. I know at least 27 guys who would like to be in his shoes.

By the way, how many top ranked players the Steelers have? Polamalu is one and I don't see another. I'd say we have several top 5 but only one #1. That's already pretty impressive, no?
The question is who is the top under-30 QB, not who's greater than Montana, Luckman or Unitas. I'd say Ben is right up there.

Rivers is ranked above him on Bradshaw's list, but I'm looking at his playoff games, and it's like he's a Romo-clone. Last year, one-and-out, 1 TD against two interceptions. 2008, they won against Indy despite him (0 TDs, 1 INT) before losing to us (he did have a good game, but couldn't make it happen.) In 2007, he beat the Titans with a rather sloppy game (1 TD against an INT and a fumble lost) and had a great game against Indy, only to stink up the joint against the Patriots. 2006: another one-and-out stinker against New England (0 TDs, 1 INT).

And yet it is Romo who has the reputation as a big game choker, and not Rivers. Pretty much just because he can beat the Colts in his sleep. I'd take Ben over Rivers, for sure.

MDSteel15
12-01-2010, 05:55 PM
Out of the running for 1st? I never said he couldn't make it. Who knows? At this point, he's not #1 (and he never was) but if he could make it, that'd be great for him, the Steelers ........... and us.

And if he doesn't and stays at his current ranking, there's nothing wrong with being a top 5 QB in the League. I know at least 27 guys who would like to be in his shoes.

By the way, how many top ranked players the Steelers have? Polamalu is one and I don't see another. I'd say we have several top 5 but only one #1. That's already pretty impressive, no?

Under 30? I think we have at least 6 players in the top 5 at there positions! :thumbsup:

plenewken
12-01-2010, 08:12 PM
Under 30? I think we have at least 6 players in the top 5 at there positions! :thumbsup:

I was talking about Ben as QB in the NFL today, under and over 30 combined. I don't care if they're 28 or 33.
As for the other positions, I'd say Polamalu, Miller, Harrison, Woodley and Hampton

cloppbeast
12-01-2010, 10:53 PM
It was made pretty clear that Super Bowl wins was just one stat among many, albeit a pretty important one.

I wasn't talking to you when I said that. You maybe considering other factors, but not the guy I said to.

And again, it's ridiculous to bring those names into the discussion. In what meaningful listing are any of them top-five or top-ten?

I was illustrating a point - explaining why super bowls aren't the only thing that mattered - not that you said that, but the other guy.

I have to say, it seems pretty clear to me that it is in fact you who is obsessed with just one stat over all others: sacks. Everyone else might indeed be inflating the SB wins, but we're looking at Ben's entire body of work as well. For you, he takes too many sacks and the discussion is over. It's just weird.

I have been discussing why I don't think Ben should be 2nd, which everyone else around here seems to be legit. In that case, the main reason I feel that way is because he takes to many sacks - so that's why I keep bringing it up. I'm not obsessed with that stat by any means.

I also think Ben's winning percentage and Super Bowls has more to do with the team he got drafted by than Ben himself. It's not like he was even a great leader during that time, which is well documented by former players

I still think Ben is good, though - don't get me wrong.

If, hypothetically he were ranked 10th like Eli Manning, being that I think he was slighted, I would join the choir and mention his clutch performances, many comebacks and elusiveness.

It's all relative. Considering his whole body of work, I would rank him probably 4th or 5th, depending on my mood. Not too shabby.

Mark Sanchez, Joe Flacco, and Sam Bradford aren't far behind, and may end up being better than Ben when it's all said and done.

Rivers is ranked above him on Bradshaw's list, but I'm looking at his playoff games, and it's like he's a Romo-clone. Last year, one-and-out, 1 TD against two interceptions. 2008, they won against Indy despite him (0 TDs, 1 INT) before losing to us (he did have a good game, but couldn't make it happen.) In 2007, he beat the Titans with a rather sloppy game (1 TD against an INT and a fumble lost) and had a great game against Indy, only to stink up the joint against the Patriots. 2006: another one-and-out stinker against New England (0 TDs, 1 INT).

Ben had some bad games along the way, as well. He performed absolutely terrible in Super Bowl XL, and if it hadn't been for some fortunate penalties in that game, we would probably be discussing how bad Ben choked.

He performed admirably in the playoffs leading up to SB XL, but had it not been for a choke by one Mike Vanderjagt in the divisional round, his great performance still would not have been enough. Goes to show you, sometimes the difference between winning and loses amounts to luck (Miami or Buffalo ring a bell?).

Overall, other than his rookie year, SB XL, and the Wild Card game against Jacksonville in 2007, Ben has a decent playoff record. He helps his team win.

Philip Rivers also has had a decent playoff record. He's had a few bad performances (, just like Ben) - 1 coming against the 18-1 Patriots, the greatest team not to win the Super Bowl. The main difference between Roethlisberger and Rivers that people notice in my opinion, is that the Steeler's won while the Charger's lost.

Both players are young. Rivers is in his 5th year as a starter, and he's played in a grad total of 7 playoff games. I don't think that is quite enough to make the judgment that he's not a playoff quarterback. It took Peyton quite a while before he succeeded in the playoff's as well.

From what I've seen of Rivers, he doesn't appear to be a choker. He's lead big comebacks in the fourth quarter - huge one against the Chiefs in 2008.

Rivers is more accurate, has a stronger arm, throws a better deep ball, and seems better at reading defenses than Ben. No doubt, Roethlisberger seems to have some sort of exciting Houdini magic where managing to turn a dismal situation into a glorious one. He'll have you going from "No, No, No!" to "Yes, Yes, Yes!" in the blink of an eye. I would definitely take him over Rivers in a game of back yard football. In Arians terrible offense, unorganized backyard balling may be better in the first place so Ben is probably a better fit for the Steelers right now (until Arians is fired). But over all in the NFL, Rivers is the better quarterback.

ricardisimo
12-02-2010, 01:22 AM
Rivers is more accurate, has a stronger arm, throws a better deep ball, and seems better at reading defenses than Ben. No doubt, Roethlisberger seems to have some sort of exciting Houdini magic where managing to turn a dismal situation into a glorious one. He'll have you going from "No, No, No!" to "Yes, Yes, Yes!" in the blink of an eye. I would definitely take him over Rivers in a game of back yard football. In Arians terrible offense, unorganized backyard balling may be better in the first place so Ben is probably a better fit for the Steelers right now (until Arians is fired). But over all in the NFL, Rivers is the better quarterback.
Rivers is indeed slightly more accurate, statistically-speaking. I'm not sure that's what you're talking about though. I get the impression you mean hitting the receiver between the numbers as opposed to just getting him the ball, which is neither here nor there for me.

I disagree about who has the stronger arm; I've seen Ben throw some perfect long bombs while backpedaling and falling over with two guys draped on him... throws with zero body weight behind them, only arm, and they somehow went the distance anyhow. That's strong. Rivers' bombs do have a nice, pretty spiral to them, that's for sure. But these are all stylistic questions, and I don't think that matters in the end.

Neil-Still-Rules-14
12-03-2010, 05:24 PM
Very good point. Plunkett wasn't bad, by the way. And we're getting a little ahead of ourselves calling Brady and Ben Hall-of-Famers, likely as it seems.

Ben is still working on it though he's definitely on track; about 3 more seasons and he'll own every Steelers career passing record. He already has every major single game and single season record.

Just for fun, here's how far away Ben is from each major Steelers passing record:
362 completions
1,270 attempts
6,862 yards
73 touchdowns

Also, he already has all of the career "rate" records...yards per attempt, passer rating, completion percentage, etc.

....and Brady is a lock to be a first ballot HOFer. I don't see any debate here.

MDSteel15
12-03-2010, 05:39 PM
I was talking about Ben as QB in the NFL today, under and over 30 combined. I don't care if they're 28 or 33.
As for the other positions, I'd say Polamalu, Miller, Harrison, Woodley and Hampton

No Hines!!! Shame shame

AndyWitmyer
12-04-2010, 12:57 AM
Are you people really suprised that Bradshaw put Ben at number 2? Knowing TB's very public animosity towards Ben and the Steelers in general, I'm surprised he mentioned Ben at all!