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View Full Version : wheres all the whiz lovers?


finesward
12-01-2010, 11:24 AM
A lotta folks were claiming whisenhunt was the better coach, he got paid more when the cardinals gave him his extension, took a lesser team and crafted a team capable of getting to the superbowl. Lots of ppl were dissing the front office for going with tomlin after failing to make the playoffs last year. Well take a look at the cards. They are in a weak division and have essentially given up, absolutely no effort being given, team is just going through the motions. We are 8-3 w/o our star QB for 4 games, players playing hard 10 out of the 11 games played (pats being he exception) and they still play like a team out to earn respect. Which is what tomlin preaches. Thanks rooneys for picking the right guy :tt04:

steelax04
12-01-2010, 11:28 AM
This is actually a good discussion I'd like to see both sides on... I was happy to see some new blood from outside of the organization. A little shake-up isn't a bad thing from time to time.

steeltheone
12-01-2010, 11:33 AM
Do you really think Whiz would not have taken Cowhers Team and been succesful? Tomlin has been fine. The real challenge will be when Cowhers guys are gone and see how he does. This team will be completely different in the next 2 -3 years.

Rick5895
12-01-2010, 11:39 AM
I think the Steelers made a good choice with Tomlin, but I really liked Whiz, but IMO the man that deserves a hell of a lot more credit for our offense before Tomlin and the guy who should get most of the crdit with the Cards in '08 is Grimm. I would love to see him back here.

lionslicer
12-01-2010, 11:42 AM
I can't really say this is Cowher's team, remember this is the same team that went 2-6 after the superbowl victory and only went 6-2 after that because of the weak schedule. Tomlin came in and his work ethic with the team really got them in superbowl fasion again, his first year kind of hit a flat line because he practiced them too hard, but he lightened up a little and taught players to block on interception returns and bam you have a superbowl team in his 2nd year.
Add in all the new starters, the terrible OC, a lot of new coaches, a lot of new young players, Harrison who Cowher didn't see much potential other than a back up, its a new-ish team that I think Tomlin can have some credit for, good or bad.

I really don't know how Whiz would have done in Pittsburgh, I think the offense would be a lot better, but could he actually motivate players? He wasn't a sideline coach, he was usually in the booth, didn't have much interaction with players during the game. Could he have won a superbowl here? Probably, would it have been as soon as Tomlin did it? I doubt it.

DoubleYoi
12-01-2010, 12:07 PM
The Cards were left in a real tough spot when Kurt Warner retired and Boldin left town. I'm not at all convinced Whiz should be blamed for the Cards problems this year. Having said that, comparing Whiz to Tomlin at this point in their respective careers is apples to oranges. Whiz took the the reins of a fledgling organization while Tomlin took the reins of the best-run franchise in the NFL with a front office many teams would kill for. Not praising Whiz or bashing Tomlin but it is what it is.

Whodis
12-01-2010, 12:21 PM
The Cards were left in a real tough spot when Kurt Warner retired and Boldin left town. I'm not at all convinced Whiz should be blamed for the Cards problems this year. Having said that, comparing Whiz to Tomlin at this point in their respective careers is apples to oranges. Whiz took the the reins of a fledgling organization while Tomlin took the reins of the best-run franchise in the NFL with a front office many teams would kill for. Not praising Whiz or bashing Tomlin but it is what it is.

This

OX1947
12-01-2010, 12:47 PM
Whiz lost his entire team in the offseason. Either by free agency or retirement and he was given Derek Anderson as a replacement. You could put Belicrap, Parcells and Cowher on that Cards team and it wouldnt make a difference.

steelerchad
12-01-2010, 12:53 PM
The Cards were left in a real tough spot when Kurt Warner retired and Boldin left town. I'm not at all convinced Whiz should be blamed for the Cards problems this year. Having said that, comparing Whiz to Tomlin at this point in their respective careers is apples to oranges. Whiz took the the reins of a fledgling organization while Tomlin took the reins of the best-run franchise in the NFL with a front office many teams would kill for. Not praising Whiz or bashing Tomlin but it is what it is.

agree with this, but you can't deny that it appears his team has totally quit on him.
Even in our 5 game skid last year, the team never quit. Every one of those losses was a 1 score game and the team did rebound to win their last 3. The Cards look like they have just given up after a 3-2 start, they've lost 6 straight. If Whiz can get them to play for him the rest of the year then fine, but if they remain uncompetitive against below average teams like the 49ers then that reflects highly on the coach.

jjpro11
12-01-2010, 12:53 PM
how about comparing the draft classes of each coach? Their first drafts were in 2007. i am not too familiar with the Cardinals, but I see a lot of studs and some potential studs on the Steelers' side.

Cardinals -
http://www.databasefootball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=chc&lg=nfl

Steelers -
http://www.databasefootball.com/draft/draftteam.htm?tm=PIT&lg=NFL

stb_steeler
12-01-2010, 12:54 PM
Id love to see whizz back as our OC......he was less predictable than Arians.

DoubleYoi
12-01-2010, 01:36 PM
agree with this, but you can't deny that it appears his team has totally quit on him.
Even in our 5 game skid last year, the team never quit. Every one of those losses was a 1 score game and the team did rebound to win their last 3. The Cards look like they have just given up after a 3-2 start, they've lost 6 straight. If Whiz can get them to play for him the rest of the year then fine, but if they remain uncompetitive against below average teams like the 49ers then that reflects highly on the coach.

I hear you. As a player though, I'd be a lot quicker to quit on a team Quarterbacked by Derek Anderson who's laughing on the sidelines during the closing minutes of a loss than to quit on a team Quarterbacked by a 2-time Super Bowl champion. I think The Steelers had more of a chance with Big Ben, Hines and Santonio than the Cards do with Derek Anderson, Fitz and Breaston. Just my opinion though.

finesward
12-01-2010, 02:30 PM
I think Tomlin has done a nice job taking an older team that wanted to see whiz or grimm get the job and in one year make enough impact to get them to buy into his system and win a super bowl. That's not an easy feat for any coach. Go ask Wade phillips about inheriting a good team from another coach (parcells) He had an owner who would go get whoever he wanted, a talented young D drafted by parcells, an overall solid team and still could barely get one playoff win out of them. The same could of happened to Tomlin imo, the same scenario that is happening around the league with teams quitting on their coaches...the bengals, cowboys, vikings, and now arizona have all quit. I feel bad for whiz because he is from an x's and o's standpoint a great coach. But like someone else said, maybe his interactions with the players is lacking and he has alienated himself. Who knows. But all phases of that club have given up on him.

We all know he wasn't well liked by Ben, maybe the same thing is happening with his players in zona. Whiz took a team that had several years worth of high draft picks, just no coaching to put it all together. He did what he could with what he had, and really warner was the only reason they were successful at all IMO. When he left so did arizona's chances of competing. The players know it, and now they are disinterested. He's going through the hard realities we had to live with during cowher...a team is only as good as it's QB. The days of trent dilfer riding a #1 defense to super bowl victory are OVER with the new rules in place. It's all about the QB now.

PhantomJB93
12-01-2010, 03:24 PM
Do you really think Whiz would not have taken Cowhers Team and been succesful? Tomlin has been fine. The real challenge will be when Cowhers guys are gone and see how he does. This team will be completely different in the next 2 -3 years.

Considering Tomlin is responsible for the likes of Timmons, Woodley, Wallace, Pouncey, and Mendenhall, and still has promising talent in Hood, Worilds, Sanders, and Brown, I wouldn't be too woried about Tomlin's decisions in stocking this team with talent once Cowher's guys have all left.

BengalDestroyer
12-01-2010, 04:45 PM
I'm indifferent. Liked both coaches, the only thing that sucked is we lost arguably the best O line coach the Steelers ever had in Russ Grimm. I'm still confident in Tomlin, and the fact that number seven will be coming home soon.

I also believe that Tomlin is a better motivator so....

NYC_Steeler
12-01-2010, 05:00 PM
To put it all in perspective, just think of what could've been if Ben had not been in that motorcycle accident. Alot of things would be different right now...

thumper
12-01-2010, 05:37 PM
Do you really think Whiz would not have taken Cowhers Team and been succesful? Tomlin has been fine. The real challenge will be when Cowhers guys are gone and see how he does. This team will be completely different in the next 2 -3 years.

One of the guys who was __NOT__ a Cowher guy is Ben. Cowher wanted
to draft an OT over Ben. Rooney over-ruled him and made them draft Ben.
I think many mistake that the players drafted in Cowher's era were
Cowher picks. As a matter of fact, the draft picks that did seem like they
were Cowher picks tended to not pan out. When Cowher bragged about
drafting players, they often sucked. I believe the good players drafted
in Cowher's era were usually not his choices. I remember Cowher talking
about how he liked the "look in the eyes" of Jeremy Staat. Nice call.

urgle burgle
12-01-2010, 05:37 PM
apples and oranges.

whiz took over a notoriously bad team, with shitty draft picks, and a hideously greedy and inept owner and did something with it.

tomlin took what we have, continued it, won a super bowl, and continues on.

BigRick
12-01-2010, 07:24 PM
The Cards were left in a real tough spot when Kurt Warner retired and Boldin left town. I'm not at all convinced Whiz should be blamed for the Cards problems this year. Having said that, comparing Whiz to Tomlin at this point in their respective careers is apples to oranges. Whiz took the the reins of a fledgling organization while Tomlin took the reins of the best-run franchise in the NFL with a front office many teams would kill for. Not praising Whiz or bashing Tomlin but it is what it is.

Don't forget they lost Dansby also. But who cares, I grew up in Missouri and remember what a bunch of cheap bastards the Bidwells were. Used to get a lot of flack for being a Steelers fan, but like I always told my buddies The Road To The Super Bowl Goes Through Pittsburgh Not St. Louis. :rofl:

urgle burgle
12-01-2010, 07:42 PM
Don't forget they lost Dansby also. But who cares, I grew up in Missouri and remember what a bunch of cheap bastards the Bidwells were. Used to get a lot of flack for being a Steelers fan, but like I always told my buddies The Road To The Super Bowl Goes Through Pittsburgh Not St. Louis. :rofl:


i lived in AZ for the 4 yrs. If someone mentioned the bidwells name they used to spit on the ground and cross themselves.

steeltheone
12-01-2010, 07:55 PM
Considering Tomlin is responsible for the likes of Timmons, Woodley, Wallace, Pouncey, and Mendenhall, and still has promising talent in Hood, Worilds, Sanders, and Brown, I wouldn't be too woried about Tomlin's decisions in stocking this team with talent once Cowher's guys have all left.

So in four years of coaching only two of his picks are starting on defense. So the defense is Cowhers players.

And the SuperBowl was won with Cowhers players...Pouncy..Mendy..Wallace..Brown and Sanders had no part in that...All Cowhers players.

I like Tomlin. I also think Whiz would have faired as well as Tomlin has.

steeltheone
12-01-2010, 07:59 PM
[QUOTE=thumper;873284]One of the guys who was __NOT__ a Cowher guy is Ben. Cowher wanted
to draft an OT over Ben. Rooney over-ruled him and made them draft Ben.
I think many mistake that the players drafted in Cowher's era were
Cowher picks. As a matter of fact, the draft picks that did seem like they
were Cowher picks tended to not pan out. When Cowher bragged about
drafting players, they often sucked. I believe the good players drafted
in Cowher's era were usually not his choices. I remember Cowher talking
about how he liked the "look in the eyes" of Jeremy Staat. Nice call.[/QUOTE

Cowher would have had atleast 2 more rings with BR7. He had many teams much better than the current team but no QB.

GMU Steeler
12-01-2010, 08:43 PM
I'm fine with Tomlin over Whisenhunt but Whiz was handicapped by having his QB retire, one of his best wideouts being traded, and Karlos Dansby leaving via FA. Now, I think Tomlin is the better coach. The thing that people who wanted Whisenhunt have to realize is that Whisenhunt wasn't going to wait around for a second interview. The Steelers hire their head coaches very carefully and take their time doing so since after all we've had 3 coaches since the merger. I'll give Whisenhunt credit for making hte Cardinals a respectable franchise but I think Tomlin also deserves credit for some of his draft picks as well: Timmons, Woodley, Wallace, Pouncey, and Mendenhall are just five prominent starters that come to mine. He hasn't been perfect but I think he was the right choice after Cowher stepped down.

330steelerguy
12-01-2010, 09:05 PM
Id love to see whizz back as our OC......he was less predictable than Arians.

X2!!!

lionslicer
12-01-2010, 09:17 PM
So in four years of coaching only two of his picks are starting on defense. So the defense is Cowhers players.

And the SuperBowl was won with Cowhers players...Pouncy..Mendy..Wallace..Brown and Sanders had no part in that...All Cowhers players.

I like Tomlin. I also think Whiz would have faired as well as Tomlin has.

All this talk about Cowher players, like someone else said players he drafted didn't pan out it was usually players suggested by the owner or gm, possibly even other coaches.

IN my opinion, I don't think that Cowher was that great of a player evaluator, other than linebackers. He was a great motivator and overrall headcoach, but lets face it, he surrounded himself with talented coaches.
When LeBeau left in 1996 the Steelers still had some success with his players but it wasn't long until they had 3 straight seasons without winning 10 games and making the playoffs. Marvin Lewis also left who was the linebackers coach of possibly one of the best linebacking corps in history.
But I guess it's all about the head coach and their coaching tree which Bill has a pretty solid one.

And I'm not in any way denying Whiz's talent as a head coach, just trying to put some consistancy on why Tomlin is a good head coach and not just someone who picked up a good team and ran with it.

madtowndrunkard
12-01-2010, 09:21 PM
The two situations are not comparable. I have little doubt that Whiz would have found plenty of success running the steelers as Tomlin has.....in fact I would bet we would have more wins with Whiz running the Steelers. Why? Because Arians wouldn't be our OC. Whiz would be calling the offensive plays. Our defense would still be the same. I highly doubt Whiz would have tolerated the total disaster that was our ST's unit for 3 years.

When it comes to picking talent, I guess I'm one of the few who actually believes our FO and scouting dept. have more to do with drafting players then our HC. So I don't think the drafts would have been any different. Maybe instead of taking 2 LB's in this years draft we take an OT in the 2nd round? who knows.

Whiz getting the Cardinals to the SB is 100X more impressive then Tomlin winning a SB. Tomlin had Cowhers players and Whiz's offense to get that ring. Whiz took over one of the worst teams in the NFL. Whiz still has some serious personnel issues but I would think he bought him self a few years with his early success in AZ. If Dick Lebeau leaves with Whiz to Arizona I have a feeling the tables would have been turned.

mesaSteeler
12-01-2010, 09:51 PM
i lived in AZ for the 4 yrs. If someone mentioned the bidwells name they used to spit on the ground and cross themselves.

They still do.

As far as wretched Turdnial birds I knew their collapse was coming the moment the Warner retired. Bozo Bidwell and his clan of clowns are some of the worst owners in football. They had years to make plans for Warner's retirement and they did nothing constructive. Bozo Bidwell is to damn cheap to spend the money to keep quality players. They are still millions under the salary cap.

It's also apparent that the team has quit on Whiz. He's lost them and I believe it's only a matter of time before Bozo Bidwell fires him.

Here is a solution , Bozo Bidwell fires Whiz, the Rooney's fire Arians, we hire Whiz back as OC and Bozo Bidwell can hire Arians as head coach. Watching Arians as coach of the Turdnial birds would almost make up for that game in Clown town when he went pass happy. Works for me.

Poor Whiz you can see it in his face that he has now realized that Arizona is where coaches come to die.

Actually it's been high comedy watching the Turdnial birds collapse. Here is what was posted on the Arizona Republic live chat game day blog during the last game.

The AZ State Police are cracking down on speeders in Phoenix.

For the first offense, they give you 2 Cardinal tickets.
If you get stopped a second time, they make you use them.

Q. What's the difference between the Cardinals and a dollar bill?
A. You can still get four quarters out of a dollar bill

Q. How many cardinals does it take to win a Super Bowl?
A. Nobody knows

Q. What do the Cardinals and Billy Graham have in common?
A. They both can make 70,000 people stand up and yell "Oh My God".

Q. What do the Cardinals and a possum have in common?
A. Both play dead at home and get killed on the road

Hayeksheroes
12-02-2010, 11:55 AM
If Dick Lebeau retired, where would Tomlin be?

Whodis
12-02-2010, 12:05 PM
If Dick Lebeau retired, where would Tomlin be?

He would pry Casey Bradley away from the Seahawks

DoubleYoi
12-02-2010, 01:43 PM
He would pry Casey Bradley away from the Seahawks

Or Tom Bradley from PSU's staff.

Whodis
12-02-2010, 01:46 PM
Or Tom Bradley from PSU's staff.

More genius would be Jay Paterno and Arians running the same offense!

sorry to be off topic

Third Rail
12-02-2010, 02:38 PM
They still do.

As far as wretched Turdnial birds I knew their collapse was coming the moment the Warner retired. Bozo Bidwell and his clan of clowns are some of the worst owners in football. They had years to make plans for Warner's retirement and they did nothing constructive. Bozo Bidwell is to damn cheap to spend the money to keep quality players. They are still millions under the salary cap.

It's also apparent that the team has quit on Whiz. He's lost them and I believe it's only a matter of time before Bozo Bidwell fires him.

Here is a solution , Bozo Bidwell fires Whiz, the Rooney's fire Arians, we hire Whiz back as OC and Bozo Bidwell can hire Arians as head coach. Watching Arians as coach of the Turdnial birds would almost make up for that game in Clown town when he went pass happy. Works for me.

Poor Whiz you can see it in his face that he has now realized that Arizona is where coaches come to die.

Actually it's been high comedy watching the Turdnial birds collapse. Here is what was posted on the Arizona Republic live chat game day blog during the last game.

The AZ State Police are cracking down on speeders in Phoenix.

For the first offense, they give you 2 Cardinal tickets.
If you get stopped a second time, they make you use them.

Q. What's the difference between the Cardinals and a dollar bill?
A. You can still get four quarters out of a dollar bill

Q. How many cardinals does it take to win a Super Bowl?
A. Nobody knows

Q. What do the Cardinals and Billy Graham have in common?
A. They both can make 70,000 people stand up and yell "Oh My God".

Q. What do the Cardinals and a possum have in common?
A. Both play dead at home and get killed on the road

:rofl: Thats some funny shit.

I think the league should have the right to make Monday night games flex games, since you could get to a point in the season where two teams - ones that were predicted to be juggernauts in the preseason but have proceeded to suck all year - end up facing off on a Monday night and no one watches. Case in point, this last Monday game. I usually watch MNF no matter who is playing, but I could bring myself to give enough of a shit to watch the Turdinals face off against the 4&12ers the other night.

steeltheone
12-02-2010, 04:18 PM
:rofl: Thats some funny shit.

I think the league should have the right to make Monday night games flex games, since you could get to a point in the season where two teams - ones that were predicted to be juggernauts in the preseason but have proceeded to suck all year - end up facing off on a Monday night and no one watches. Case in point, this last Monday game. I usually watch MNF no matter who is playing, but I could bring myself to give enough of a shit to watch the Turdinals face off against the 4&12ers the other night.

Good point...Its one of the few i didnt watch!