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View Full Version : Trading Holmes is biggest reason why this O is so bad,


Rush58
12-12-2010, 06:15 PM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.

TRH
12-12-2010, 06:18 PM
It doesn't have anything to do with Holmes.
Our OL is so bad, that Ben is running for his life on nearly every play...trying not to be killed. Its so obvious, even national announcers discuss it almost weekly.
Sometimes the receivers ARE getting open, but trying to see them with that much pressure is extremely difficult at best.

Rick5895
12-12-2010, 06:18 PM
We don't consistantly run the receivers on shorter routes, today for example Ben had some time but our routes are all deeper makes it tougher to get the ball to them. As our younger receivers get more action my bet is the offensive output will increase. Today, they made good use of Wallace and Brown on quick hitches.

Rick5895
12-12-2010, 06:19 PM
It doesn't have anything to do with Holmes.
Our OL is so bad, that Ben is running for his life on nearly every play...trying not to be killed. Its so obvious, even national announcers discuss it almost weekly.
Sometimes the receivers ARE getting open, but trying to see them with that much pressure is extremely difficult at best.

I agree it has nothing to do with Santo being gone.

theplatypus
12-12-2010, 06:21 PM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.


If you can't block or pick up a blitz it doesn't really matter what play is called.

Rush58
12-12-2010, 06:22 PM
when i say shorter, i mean in the 10 to 15 yard area. no holmes is hurting us big time.

Rush58
12-12-2010, 06:27 PM
no question the line is not good, but who besides wallace do other teams have to pay close attention to? ward? miller? i doubt it. without wallace imo, this steelers receiving core may be the worse in the league.

fer522
12-12-2010, 06:33 PM
the problem lies with the guy calling the plays
fire Arians

SteelCityRules
12-12-2010, 06:37 PM
the problem lies with the guy calling the plays
fire Arians

Good point. Though Holmes did drop an open TD pass that bounced off his shoulder pad, I guess, a few drives ago. lol Not that it means much of anything, I just found it humorous. I'm so bad. :sofunny:

theplatypus
12-12-2010, 06:38 PM
Everything starts with the line. Even Miller has seen limited duty on passing downs because he has to help block for the sieve that is our O-line.

Rush58
12-12-2010, 06:40 PM
man, how many problems do we have? LOL bruce arian? bad o-line? one real weapon at receiver? i'm not going to bash ward. he's just old. he's a tight end at this stage, but we need some development.

theplatypus
12-12-2010, 06:56 PM
man, how many problems do we have? LOL bruce arian? bad o-line? one real weapon at receiver? i'm not going to bash ward. he's just old. he's a tight end at this stage, but we need some development.


We really only have one major problem(o-line). We've seen some nice input/development from recent additions this year. Brown and Sanders are looking very good for rookies. Redman has made several big contributions with limited opportunities.

Busforever
12-12-2010, 07:08 PM
Yeah to me Holmes is not linked. Our O Line isn't the most talented in the NFL. Big guys could have done a good job but they are affected by many injuries since this summer. Thank God our QB feels nearly "comfortable" playing under those circumstances: without this pressure, he is not Big Ben:chuckle:

On this game against Bengals Maurkice Pouncey seemed just lost. He let Dhani Jones run free on Big Ben, and basicaly lost his duel against Pecko. It was surprising considering what Pouncey showed this season. Just a bad game, but Big Ben and Mendenhall felt it.

steeltheone
12-12-2010, 07:11 PM
You can't say we don't miss Holmes. He is better now than anybody on our team. You just have to look at the bigger picture and why we got rid of him. Wallace does not get open consistantly. He keeps getting better though. Look out in year 3.

steelerchad
12-12-2010, 07:16 PM
Good point. Though Holmes did drop an open TD pass that bounced off his shoulder pad, I guess, a few drives ago. lol Not that it means much of anything, I just found it humorous. I'm so bad. :sofunny:

This drop was wide open. He may have cost his team the game as the Jets are trailing 10-6 on the last drive of the game right now.

theplatypus
12-12-2010, 07:16 PM
You can't say we don't miss Holmes. He is better now than anybody on our team. You just have to look at the bigger picture and why we got rid of him. Wallace does not get open consistantly. He keeps getting better though. Look out in year 3.


I don't think anyone is saying that he's not missed; however, his absence isn't too blame for our woes.

SteelCityMom
12-12-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm not going to say that not having Holmes doesn't account for a small portion of the offensive woes...but it is very, very far from being the biggest reason our offense has struggled.

The reason the offense is struggling right now is the same reason it was struggling in '08 (when they actually did have Holmes)...major injuries. The O-line was average to barely above average before injuries started taking their toll. Now with Ben severely banged up, 2 starters out and a couple other hobbled on and off and Miller being gone (not to mention Arians mediocre play calling at times) is a recipe for a below average offense. Having Holmes would do jack crap to make the offense any better.

SteelCityRules
12-12-2010, 08:02 PM
This drop was wide open. He may have cost his team the game as the Jets are trailing 10-6 on the last drive of the game right now.

Yep, true. At 1st I thought it Braylon Edwards, even though the number was wrong.:chuckle:

Steeldude
12-12-2010, 08:40 PM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.

i am glad holmes is gone. i was tired of his attitude and poor to average hands. the steelers' red zone problems have nothing to do with the WRs.

Set-Man
12-12-2010, 08:42 PM
Holmes would have been gone after this year. He wouldn't have started till the fourth game. I really liked him but our trouble starts with the o-line. If Ben is on his back it is hard to throw the ball.

TRH
12-12-2010, 08:48 PM
Yeah to me Holmes is not linked. Our O Line isn't the most talented in the NFL. Big guys could have done a good job but they are affected by many injuries since this summer. Thank God our QB feels nearly "comfortable" playing under those circumstances: without this pressure, he is not Big Ben:chuckle:

On this game against Bengals Maurkice Pouncey seemed just lost. He let Dhani Jones run free on Big Ben, and basicaly lost his duel against Pecko. It was surprising considering what Pouncey showed this season. Just a bad game, but Big Ben and Mendenhall felt it.


Yeah, i noticed that too. Pouncey was getting manhandled and on more than a couple occasions just got completely run over and thrown out of the way.

LVSteelersfan
12-12-2010, 08:54 PM
Some woes we are having. You people would bitch if you got hung with a new rope. We are 10-3 right now. That is the sign of a GOOD TEAM. Holmes is a pothead who is not as great as people keep trying to make him out to be. Wallace is already on his way to being better than Holmes and those two rookies are very impressive. Holmes did cost the Jets that game today by the way. I hope Ryan Clark knocks his freakin head off next week.

PhantomJB93
12-12-2010, 08:57 PM
Real Reasons:

1. Oline in shambles

2. Incompetent run-game playcalling (NO creativity whatsoever in the run game, Mendy's talents are getting completely wasted IMO just because we dont call the right run plays)

3. No Heath - I think its pretty obvious that we dont have a lot of the problems we did on offense today if ol' reliable Heath is out there making plays as well

4. Rookie Wideouts making some mistakes - theyre rookies, its expected - I guess you could blame the Holmes trade here but in all honesty these rookies will work out for the better and 2 years from now we wont even miss Santonio. You have to expect SOME immediate backlash when a trade like this happens but it was a move for the future, no tthe present...

Fire Arians
12-12-2010, 08:57 PM
losing starks and colon for the season, and no replacement for essex is why our O is so bad.

on the bright side, i really like antonio brown at WR. anyone know the extent of sanders' injury? after he limped off the field, i saw randle el on the field much more than i'd have liked to.

the rookie wr's are getting better week to week which is good news for us. best case scenario is they get comfortable and click with ben and the rest of the offense come playoff time. and let's not forget wallace, he's quickly becoming a go to guy in the underneath routes and not only the 1 trick pony downfield threat. I'm really liking how we're getting him the ball on quick hitters, something that should have been done much sooner.

PhantomJB93
12-12-2010, 09:15 PM
losing starks and colon for the season, and no replacement for essex is why our O is so bad.

on the bright side, i really like antonio brown at WR. anyone know the extent of sanders' injury? after he limped off the field, i saw randle el on the field much more than i'd have liked to.

the rookie wr's are getting better week to week which is good news for us. best case scenario is they get comfortable and click with ben and the rest of the offense come playoff time. and let's not forget wallace, he's quickly becoming a go to guy in the underneath routes and not only the 1 trick pony downfield threat. I'm really liking how we're getting him the ball on quick hitters, something that should have been done much sooner.

I actually thought Sanders came back in later, but maybe I was just seeing El...

If it means anythign Sanders said something to the extent of "its not that bad" on Facebook after the game from what I remember, but Im too lazy to look up the exact quote lol

skinart82
12-12-2010, 09:16 PM
I'm glad he is gone! We have some grear rookies and Wallace is the man. And I;m soooo tired of hearing how old Ward is, another 100 plus yard game and some great catches and he is getting open, didn't look old to me!

ZoneBlitzer
12-12-2010, 09:23 PM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.

I agree. It still remains for me to be one of the dumbest moves I have ever seen.

dcsteel5804
12-12-2010, 09:36 PM
By reading the responses to this thread, it seems the consensus is that we don't believe that trading Holmes is the main cause of our offensive inefficiency. I also agree. I think the biggest problem is the offensive line. Its unfortunate that Rashard Mendenhall will spend the prime of his career getting pounded behind the line of scrimmage. Even if the Steelers start making moves and building a better line through the draft, it will be too late for Rashard to reap the benefits. He'll be washed up and slow by then, ask Willie Parker.

Not only does Rashard have an inadequate offensive line, he was a worse coordinator calling the plays. Everyone and their brother can guess and have a better than 50/50 chance at what run play will be called. Run to the right. Thats probably what Ben calls in the huddle "Run to the right on 2, ready, break!!". There is no rythm to the offense. Getting yards seems like a struggle. Situational football seems to be like a foreign term to Arians. When calling plays, your supposed to use certain kinds of plays to set up other plays down the line. Your supposed to create matchups. It doesn't seem like Arians is capable of doing it. Its the same old song and dance every game and the only time it works is when Ben runs around like a chicken with his head cut off and a receiver gets open. I guess I'm done, let me know if you guys agree or disagree.

TRH
12-12-2010, 10:13 PM
Some woes we are having. You people would bitch if you got hung with a new rope. We are 10-3 right now. That is the sign of a GOOD TEAM. Holmes is a pothead who is not as great as people keep trying to make him out to be. Wallace is already on his way to being better than Holmes and those two rookies are very impressive. Holmes did cost the Jets that game today by the way. I hope Ryan Clark knocks his freakin head off next week.

i agree w/you 100 %. I don't miss Holmes at ALL. And i also believe that Wallace is going to be better than Holmes. A couple things about Wallace that impresses me is his fearlessness and his really strong desire to "do a good job" out there.

austinfrench76
12-12-2010, 11:11 PM
I was hoping that Holmes play today would stop this argument but apparently it won't die. Holmes was great, at times, for us. BUT, in case you forget he did have a lot of drops. He cost us the Chicago game last year and we weren't going to sign him at the end of this year anyways. We got McFaddren back with that trade and although he hasn't been great, think of the alternative, Gay! The o-line blows and they are the problem but we keep winning and I will take that!

Fire Arians
12-12-2010, 11:13 PM
I was hoping that Holmes play today would stop this argument but apparently it won't die. Holmes was great, at times, for us. BUT, in case you forget he did have a lot of drops. He cost us the Chicago game last year and we weren't going to sign him at the end of this year anyways. We got McFaddren back with that trade and although he hasn't been great, think of the alternative, Gay! The o-line blows and they are the problem but we keep winning and I will take that!

seriously i don't think gay is a bad player, actually he's had quite a good season. he's just not good as the #1 or #2 but as the nickel db he's been money this year

pitt0wns
12-12-2010, 11:14 PM
2 reasons why our O sucks

Arians

O-Line

Remember Holmes had A LOT of drops last year

steelersalaska
12-13-2010, 04:22 AM
Holmes dropped an easy TD for the jets today. This O-line isnt great but it's a combo of things. They are a bunch of back ups for one. Ben holds the ball too long sometimes and they don't know when, because they can't turn around and look. The empty backfield second down drives me crazy. Lack of a true screen pass execution and we win games with Heath.

ricardisimo
12-13-2010, 04:38 AM
True, our O-line is bad, but Rashard has changed significantly since Ben has come back, and not for the better. He's dropped his patented spin move and replaced it with some weird two-step shimmy dance routine that does him no good whatsoever.

As silly as the spin move was (particularly when he would do it evidently just to do it, with no one even near him) it actually worked quite often, and at least he never stopped moving forward. Now he's doing the Barry Sanders plant-and-redirect, but let's face it: he's no Barry Sanders... no one is. He's got to get back to basics, which is running forward.

MDSteel15
12-13-2010, 07:23 AM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.

You did watch the JEts game last night right? Great catch Santo.. I mean drop :wave:

Curtain_of_Steel
12-13-2010, 09:01 AM
Yea it has absolutely nothing to do with an Oline that can't block a fat woman in a dunkin donuts line. BB has zero time back there to do anything.

At least they have learned on 3 and a 1/2 inch just dive forward as opposed to handing the ball off 2 yards deep and not getting it.

Its not even Arians fault, he isn't the one blocking and holding constantly. Regardless of th eplays he calls someone has got to block. Even more boy pouncey almost killed BB on the missed block.

We have 3 young WR's who are gradually running better routes. Wallace is starting to dissappoint as he seems to be the long bomber or not much else. With BB getting no time he cant toss is long to him even if he is open.

Whodis
12-13-2010, 09:34 AM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.

your a clown.

Nice drop by Holmes in the endzone

cloppbeast
12-13-2010, 10:09 AM
Our offense sucks because we stall inside the red-zone.

We can move the ball up and down the feild all day, but we can never punch it in.

BengalDestroyer
12-13-2010, 06:08 PM
We're young at receiver (minus Ward and Battle) yes. However Holmes is not the only reason, or even the biggest reason our offense isn't getting it done.

It's a combination of - a banged up O line, play calling, Ben being out for the first quarter of the year, penalties on offense, refs not calling any roughing the QB calls (especially against cincy, I counted five), and last and LEAST the youth at both running back and receiver.

Also don't forget one of Bens favorite targets Heath Miller was out (due to an illegal hit that wasn't [SURPRISE] called a penalty)

Steeler Nation - please relax, we'll be fine.

stiller39
12-13-2010, 06:36 PM
If you think Holmes is the reason were sputtering on offense you must be smoking the same shit he does.

steelerdave1969
12-13-2010, 06:40 PM
the o-line is bad, but the reason why this o is so bad is there no one consistently getting open besides wallace. ward is old and rest are 1st year players. holmes had the ability to get open on shorter routes and deep. teams are rolling coverage toward wallace and daring the other steeler receivers to beat them.

I have been waiting on this one for a while now. Holmes may have some to do with our offensive struggles, but Not That Much. I love our Young WR's myself. Our Offensive Line and the INJURIES are What is Killing our Offense. But I also think that Ben needs to work on getting that Ball out Alot Quicker and More Accurately, cuz on the plays that he tries he is not very accurate most of the time. I believe him and the WR's have been working on Picking Up the Blitz routes, but Consistency must get better.
Our Offensive Line might be the Worst Rush Blocking Line in the League in my opinion.

MasterOfPuppets
12-13-2010, 07:00 PM
the offense has been going down hill ever since they cut john kuhn...:doh:

LVSteelersfan
12-13-2010, 07:23 PM
Wallace is starting to dissappoint as he seems to be the long bomber or not much else. With BB getting no time he cant toss is long to him even if he is open.

Say what? Wallace has been coming across the middle on crossing routes constantly and scored a TD a few games back on one. He is not just a long bomber. And Hines is teaching him how to block as well. Wallace has NOT been a disappointment by any stretch.

zulater
12-13-2010, 11:54 PM
All I've got to say about this thread is what a crock!

The offensive problems stem from losing both our starting OT's, combined with the fact the front office overvalued Trai Essex coming off a career year ( mediocre as it was), and bought into him as a starter for another season. He's since been replaced, but Foster isn't much better. Also Kemo's having a poor year, ( possibly injury related) and Flozell is merely adequete. In other words, outside of our center we're getting sub par line play pretty much every where else, thus our struggles on offense.

Fire Arians
12-14-2010, 12:03 AM
santonio 'john' holmes should send a picture of his dick to brett favre

OX1947
12-14-2010, 12:17 AM
Steelers need to get an offensive coordinator who can orchestrate this team. This offense looks like back alley pig (bleep). You have a top 5 Qb, with a 1500 yard running back and the fastest reciever in the game, one of the best TE and a vetern reciever who is clutch and they cant score a couple TDs a game?

I am not looking for Tom Brady stats here, can we please use the talent for pete's sake and not look like a bunch of retards running around like they have never played football before.

plenewken
12-14-2010, 04:51 AM
Steelers need to get an offensive coordinator who can orchestrate this team. This offense looks like back alley pig (bleep). You have a top 5 Qb, with a 1500 yard running back and the fastest reciever in the game, one of the best TE and a vetern reciever who is clutch and they cant score a couple TDs a game?

I am not looking for Tom Brady stats here, can we please use the talent for pete's sake and not look like a bunch of retards running around like they have never played football before.

+1
Our offensive coordinator doesn't seem to take into consideration our strengths and weaknesses whatsoever, nor does he adapt to the team we're facing. Week in and week out, whether we're healthy or injured, whether we play a strong team or a weak team, it's the same garbage and the same inefficiencies. It's getting old.

dez09231
12-14-2010, 07:03 AM
Anyone who thinks that our offensive struggles are in no way because of the removal of one of the best playmakers in the league is either ignorant or a fool.


Losing Santonio is a dagger through the heart when your only other weapon relies so much on speed.

plenewken
12-14-2010, 07:39 AM
Anyone who thinks that our offensive struggles are in no way because of the removal of one of the best playmakers in the league is either ignorant or a fool.


Losing Santonio is a dagger through the heart when your only other weapon relies so much on speed.

Nobody's irreplaceable. We've lost key players every year, yet, we were able to overcome it. Oh and the other teams lose key players every year too.

zulater
12-14-2010, 08:00 AM
Anyone who thinks that our offensive struggles are in no way because of the removal of one of the best playmakers in the league is either ignorant or a fool.


Losing Santonio is a dagger through the heart when your only other weapon relies so much on speed.

Santonio obviously helped this team win some games, but he also had a big part in a couple crucial losses last year. Everyone likes to single out Jeff Reed for our loss in chicago last year, well to me Holmes was more responsible, with his 3 crucial drops, all of which would have sustained drives, one would have resulted in a touchdown. He also had a big part in both losses to the Bengals last year, with several key drops, one of which again lost the Steelers a touchdown, and also his failure to recognize a blitz resulted in a pick 6 that turned the second game.

He's gone, we won before him, and we'll win after him. He wrote his own ticket out of town,life goes on.

zulater
12-14-2010, 08:26 AM
Let me put it this way, if i could wave a magic wand and change events that already happened, and somehow had the ability to get back either Holmes, Willie colon, or Max Starks. Holmes would be a distant 3rd. In other words our issues on offense are much more to do with substandard offensive line play than the loss of Holmes. I would dare say if we had kept the projected offensive line intact for the duration of this season, the offense would have been different than last year, but every bit as potent if not more, with the addition of Pouncey.

Holmes was never going to get a new contract with this team, all that happened with his off season actions was that it forced the situation to a head a year earlair that it would have occured otherwise. Going foward we will be a much better team in 2011 because of it.

UF-Steeler
12-14-2010, 08:33 AM
The people who feel like trading Holmes was a big mistake seem to be weighing the majority of their decision on his post-season and Superbowl performance of 2008 (a perfect throw from Ben in the SB helped). I don't disagree that he was a great play maker for this team and also the one guy who gelled well with Roethlisberger when he scrambled around. However, it is pretty obvious that losing him is not the reason our offense is looking so bad.

Everything mentioned in this thread so far highlights the reasons the Steelers struggle on offense. I think Santonio would've helped in some areas, but these longer developing routes when Ben has absolutely no time is just killing our offense. In addition, the penalties on the o-line take us from 5 yards from the end zone to 25 yards. Also, I'm tired of seeing Mendy dance so much, the guy has immense talent, but needs to hit the holes harder. Moving the ball doesn't seem to be a huge issue, but getting a score (which counts most) is an issue.

In the end, losing Santonio is a loss, but it isn't the end of the world. We are 10-3, leading the AFC North, and have weapons that seem to have just as much if not more upside than Santonio. I would love a championship every year, but at this moment, I am pretty damn happy with how this season is turning out after last season and playing 4 games without Ben. Glass half full.

OX1947
12-14-2010, 11:32 AM
I'm just pissed they traded him for a 5th round pick. Had they waited until even when the season started, they could have maybe gotten a 3rd rounder. The Vikings im sure would have done a 3rd rounder for him. I get why they gave up on him but a 5th rounder? Come on. Super Bowl MVP, coming off a career year. Just sucked not getting more out of him. Would have been better off to just let him play the rest of the year and not sign him, at least could have got some help and a comp pick, more then likely a 3rd rounder.

SteelMember
12-14-2010, 11:47 AM
People, our redzone offense sucked last year as well. Santonio was ON that team. :doh:

theplatypus
12-14-2010, 12:10 PM
People, our redzone offense sucked last year as well. Santonio was ON that team. :doh:


Shhhhh

Such a simple fact will certainlybe dismissed

Neil-Still-Rules-14
12-14-2010, 01:25 PM
Personally, I think
Ward+Wallace+Sanders
is just as good if not better than
Ward+Holmes+Wallace

FanSince72
12-15-2010, 01:58 PM
Hey guys, first time post - long time fan.

I was talking to my neighbor (a long time Steeler Fan from Pittsburgh and my #1 source of anything Steeler-related) about this just the other day and we agreed on this:

Ben having missed the first four games made Wallace, Hines and any other receivers slightly more than just pass-catchers. By that I mean that they really couldn't build any chemistry because everyone knew that everything was going to change when Ben got back.

Fast forward to now. Ben has had some time to work with Wallace, Sanders and even Brown and I see glimpses of what's coming - a very special group of receivers and an awesome passing game. But things like that take time (just as Holmes took time to "get it") and I'd like to think that they're headed that way right now and will hopefully gel as the playoffs get here.

The O-line is an obvious problem but I think it can be dealt with if Ben and his new receivers can get on the same page. If that works out, they can become more productive, which will take a ton of pressure off the line, but more importantly they could possibly adopt a sort of "modified West Coast" approach where Ben's quick reads and ability to move in the pocket could be the basis of the offense rather than "Plan B" and that the passing game (including whatever dink and dunk stuff goes with it) could be used to set up the run.

Even though the O-line is banged up, I think if Arians could field something consistent - even a short but productive passing game-in-lieu-of-run approach, it would take a lot of pressure off the line and they could then work towards a real purpose rather than have to gear up for the grab-bag approach we have now.

Sure, it's getting later and later, but my gut says that this passing thing is going to click and when it does - look out Charley! :thumbsup:

Haiku_Dirtt
12-15-2010, 03:32 PM
Nothing to do with Holmes. How well did the Jets do against the Patriots with Santonio Holmes at WR?

The Steelers did better against the Pats this season without Holmes than the Jets did with him. I like our receivers. They are young and fast and unafraid.

As we move closer to Hines Ward as player/coach the evidence can be seen on the field. Redman doesn't score against the Ravens without great blocking by the receivers.