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View Full Version : Is Ben an elite qb or a very good qb?


Rush58
12-19-2010, 11:52 PM
the reason why i say that is b/c we have never been an elite O since ben has been starter. our O has had games, moments, but nothing with any true consistency. brees, rives, manning, and brady all put points. when other teams play those guys, they have that pressure to score points. i was watching our game and i thought sanchez and ben are basically the same b/c both teams are not threaten at all by the other teams O. i'm not bashing ben. i believe he's a good, solid qb but at times, ben is still raw. maybe i'm just expecting more with ben by now.

btw, i could care less about the loss. there are dozen way(s) to lose games but we need to be more productive on the O side. the rules won't allow us to beat a real qb 12-10. it's not happening.

Third Rail
12-19-2010, 11:56 PM
Ben is a better QB than Sanchez. Come on. I know that the Jets won and they deserve credit for that (they played a fairly clean game and there was no tripping this time that I saw) but their victory had more to do with our defense blowing coverage at the worst possible times and of course, the ghost of the 2009 Steelers Special Teams rearing its ugly head around.

Oh, and Mewelde Moore. And you can blame Bruce Arians for that, really. Why the hell you would put your SLOWEST runningback in to carry the ball when you're IN YOUR OWN END ZONE is beyond me.

steelax04
12-19-2010, 11:57 PM
the reason why i say that is b/c we have never been an elite O since ben has been starter. our O has had games, moments, but nothing with any true consistency. brees, rives, manning, and brady all put points. when other teams play those guys, they have that pressure to score points. i was watching our game and i thought sanchez and ben are basically the same b/c both teams are not threaten at all by the other teams O. i'm not bashing ben. i believe he's a good, solid qb but at times, ben is still raw. maybe i'm just expecting more with ben by now.

btw, i could care less about the loss. there are dozen way(s) to lose games but we need to be more productive on the O side. the rules won't allow us to beat a real qb 12-10. it's not happening.

And they were an elite O for the first 4 games of the season? Two 90+ yard drives tonight, and almost a 3rd 90+ yarder to win the game? The first 100 yard rusher against the Jets D since 2009? One special teams play and this is a W instead of a L. I also saw a pretty good no-huddle offense there too.

tanda10506
12-20-2010, 12:08 AM
And they were an elite O for the first 4 games of the season? Two 90+ yard drives tonight, and almost a 3rd 90+ yarder to win the game? The first 100 yard rusher against the Jets D since 2009? One special teams play and this is a W instead of a L. I also saw a pretty good no-huddle offense there too.

The offense was pretty good. Ben is an elite QB, to me there's no question about it. He plays great and still puts up good numbers with one of the worst O line's there is. Also, Sanders would have scored a touchdown on 2nd and goal if he wasn't pulled by the back of the jersey. Even the "know it all" Phil Simms pointed out the obvious hold. That would have one the game right there, which is what Ben does all the time.

Rush58
12-20-2010, 12:12 AM
Ben is a better QB than Sanchez. Come on.


i was referring to their unit. i don't sense teams saying, "man, we got to score some points to beat these guys." clearly, we sense this when we play qb(s) such as brees, brady, manning, or rivers. i don't care who their receivers are. they alway(s) have that production.

eafratitpm3
12-20-2010, 12:15 AM
Are you serious? Have you been watching this season, hell no he's not elite. With all the weapons this offense has they are not consistent. Elite QBs are Manning & Brady, everyone talks about our O-Line injuries and that's why the Offense is not good. Ben misses alot of wide open guys, just in this game alone he missed some easy throws. Elite QBs win, period!

Third Rail
12-20-2010, 12:15 AM
You're right about that, but I have doubts that any of those guys would be productive with our receiver and runningback corps.

OX1947
12-20-2010, 12:16 AM
Too much instability with Big Ben. Every year there is something going on with him. There is no consistency. Elite Qb's like Manning and Brady are focused on football all the time with their shares of TV or endorsements. But football is priority 1. I don't feel like Big Ben is priority 1 with football. Maybe 1A with other things in life.

Guys like Big Ben are not typically 2 time Super Bowl winners though. So I think Ben might be an anomaly where he isn't a true elite QB but plays like one when it matters but then again, doesn't do it game in and game out.

pitt0wns
12-20-2010, 12:18 AM
Everyone forgets we have a crappy O line

Also he is playing with a broken foot 2 different sized shoes etc.

Every 3 step drop he does no one is open

Arians Arians Arians needs to go go go!

Ben is a unique QB I would say he is top 5 in the league

figg
12-20-2010, 12:19 AM
Is Ben an elite qb or a very good qb?

:huh:

figg
12-20-2010, 12:21 AM
Are you serious? Have you been watching this season, hell no he's not elite. With all the weapons this offense has they are not consistent. Elite QBs are Manning & Brady, everyone talks about our O-Line injuries and that's why the Offense is not good. Ben misses alot of wide open guys, just in this game alone he missed some easy throws. Elite QBs win, period!

So you're saying Ben is elite? :thumbsup:

VegasStlrFan
12-20-2010, 12:26 AM
Elite, hell no.... Good, maybe.... definitely overated!

figg
12-20-2010, 12:29 AM
lol you're lost.

tanda10506
12-20-2010, 12:47 AM
Can't believe the nonsense I'm seeing on here. If Ben's not an elite QB then who is? Let me guess Manning. So Manning who's been in the league all these years with tons more offensive weapons and a better line is better then Ben because he has won more championships? Or because he throws better on the run? Good chance Manning is more accurate, if he get's another championship before Ben does then we'll talk about that. Who else? On any given Sunday Ben is the best QB in the league, and every Sunday he's top 3. Overrated?? By who? The jealous people who hate him for not being proved guilty or the jealous people that hate him for burning there team at the end of the game? Come on guys!!

ZoneBlitzer
12-20-2010, 01:06 AM
Tough question to answer. He's definitely a unique QB who has shown signs of brilliance. He's a proven winner. With the game on the line, he usually delivers. But there are some weaknesses to his game. He struggles to just step back and let it go. The TV coverage never shows the defensive coverage but I have to assume that guys are getting open sometimes. This year, the magic has been off a bit with errant throws that are way off the mark. I don't know...based on his winning percentage alone, I'd say he's a great QB but I don't think that he's taken that next step to elite level just yet until I see a greater dedication from him to improve upon his weaknesses. The elite ones are students of the game who are always looking to improve. I think Ben is more than capable of being truly elite.

figg
12-20-2010, 01:07 AM
Can't believe the nonsense I'm seeing on here. If Ben's not an elite QB then who is? Let me guess Manning. So Manning who's been in the league all these years with tons more offensive weapons and a better line is better then Ben because he has won more championships? Or because he throws better on the run? Good chance Manning is more accurate, if he get's another championship before Ben does then we'll talk about that. Who else? On any given Sunday Ben is the best QB in the league, and every Sunday he's top 3. Overrated?? By who? The jealous people who hate him for not being proved guilty or the jealous people that hate him for burning there team at the end of the game? Come on guys!!

:thumbsup: What Qb's would you naysayer's take over Ben in the final 2min?

IowaSteeler927
12-20-2010, 01:28 AM
Ben is an elite quarterback. It's not even questionable in my book and quite honesty it disgusts me that anyone on here would even call Roethlisberger into question like this. We got two super bowl wins with Ben at the helm and that alone says something about his leadership of this team.

There are guys like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning who get more credit than they truly deserve. They play behind elite offensive lines, and their lineman don't get the credit that they deserve. Ben Roethlisberger has played behind mediocre offensive lines ever since we left Alan Faneca go he has had to deal with a lot of injuries to his offensive lines over the past years. Despite the fact that the offensive line play has been poor he still plays great football. He is consistently getting out of sacks and extending plays that should have been broken.

There are games where guys like Brady and Manning don't even so much as get a grass stain on their jersey or get knocked to the turf for that matter. There hasn't been one game that I can remember where Roethlisberger hasn't spent a good portion of the game taking hits. Despite all of this Roethlisberger just plays the game and actually defends his lineman as evidenced by his comments after Super Bowl 43 when he called out all of the doubters of his offensive line.

This year is a perfect example of how good of a quarterback Ben really is. Despite having a broken foot and a broken nose he still manages to play well enough to get a win against the Ravens last week. Another example to prove my point that Ben is in fact and elite level QB is the Colts record this year. The colts suffered a ton of injuries and had a couple of lineman down as well as receivers. Manning threw the most interceptions in a three game span that I have ever seen him throw. Under pressure he wasn't able to extend plays or make quick decisions and often forced the ball into coverage. It goes to show how great receivers and great offensive lineman make quarterbacks look elite. It's all fine and dandy taking all the credit and gushing before the media when you have a great game but we all saw how Manning was sulken and depressed when he was throwing more interceptions than touchdowns and dealing with injuries.

Despite the Steelers having some injuries at bad times throughout this season however, we still have a 10-4 record and we would be 11-3 if it were not for the Jets twelfth man )the officials) inability to make holding and pass interference calls in key situations where the penalties were more than blatantly obvious.

SoCalFan
12-20-2010, 01:39 AM
BEN IS ELITE!!! Dam,some people have short memories!OUR Q.B took us on one of the most difficult and exciting game winning drives in Superbowl history! LOOK AT THE O LINE HE HAS,LOOK AT THE CRAPPY PLAY CALLING.Look,give Ben some time in the pocket and great play calls,with our running game,he could pick em apart with the best of em!He also has some play making intangiables not even BABY BRADY has!!!

DanRooney
12-20-2010, 01:43 AM
Elite, hell no.... Good, maybe.... definitely overated!

Exact opposite. He's highly underrated. Nobody except Steeler fans put him at a top of a QB list. This guy is playing behind a piss poor line. He buys eons of time for guys who can't get open quick enough (Hines Ward) and is flawless when he calls his own plays. Rex Ryan called a timeout twice at the end of the game and stopped after Bruce got in his play. Before that, Ben marched right down the field in no huddle. Coincidence?

Drives were stalling because of boneheaded penalties, non-calls by the referees and Bruce Arians.

mizzouristeeler
12-20-2010, 01:51 AM
They don't make stats for what make ben elite. Id take him over tom gaydy anyday.

IowaSteeler927
12-20-2010, 01:52 AM
Exact opposite. He's highly underrated. Nobody except Steeler fans put him at a top of a QB list. This guy is playing behind a piss poor line. He buys eons of time for guys who can't get open quick enough (Hines Ward) and is flawless when he calls his own plays. Rex Ryan called a timeout twice at the end of the game and stopped after Bruce got in his play. Before that, Ben marched right down the field in no huddle. Coincidence?

Drives were stalling because of boneheaded penalties, non-calls by the referees and Bruce Arians.

Well said my friend. I wish more Steelers fans shared this ideology. Naysaying Roethlisberger is blasphemy in my book. This guy came out of nowhere to go 15-1 in his first season, and then he won us two super bowls after that. We sure as hell weren't going to win them with Tommy Maddox or Charlie Batch were we? Even more interesting is that fact that Eli Manning and Phillip Rivers were both drafted ahead of Roethlisberger and only little Manning has a ring and I think that was due largely in part to Michael Strahan and a Giants defensive line that was probably the most dominant in the NFL that year.

pete74
12-20-2010, 05:03 AM
Everyone forgets we have a crappy O line

Also he is playing with a broken foot 2 different sized shoes etc.

Every 3 step drop he does no one is open

Arians Arians Arians needs to go go go!

Ben is a unique QB I would say he is top 5 in the league

our O-line played great Sunday. they had a very good game

IowaSteeler927
12-20-2010, 05:16 AM
our O-line played great Sunday. they had a very good game


Yeah to their credit I thought they played extremely well against a blitzing Jets defense. Mendenhall had one of his better games in what seems like forever.

Rick5895
12-20-2010, 05:30 AM
We lose a game and we get the same old B.S. All the negativity. Of course Ben is an elite quarterback. I wouldn't want anyone else back there, including Brady. He suits this team better than anybody else. Ben does what it takes to win, plays injured, makes blocks when neccesary etc. Stats and numbers don't always tell the story.
Game in game out he is asked to play with a sub par O Line, 2 rookie WR, the last 2 games without his TE and he has to do it with the one thing Brady, Mannining don't have , that is an OC who couldn't organize a piss up in a brewery much less co-ordinate an effective offensive game plan.

plenewken
12-20-2010, 07:04 AM
And they were an elite O for the first 4 games of the season? Two 90+ yard drives tonight, and almost a 3rd 90+ yarder to win the game? The first 100 yard rusher against the Jets D since 2009? One special teams play and this is a W instead of a L. I also saw a pretty good no-huddle offense there too.

How many QBs are part of the "Elite"? If it's 5. Ben's not in it at this point. Elite QBs find ways to win games down the stretch, Ben doesn't. He's too inconsistent.
Polamalu find ways to win games week in and week out. Ben doesn't.

Look at what Vick is doing. He hasn't missed 4 games, he's missed 2 seasons. He's much more of a playmaker than Ben, sorry.

Oh and don't give me the weakened by injuries offensive line excuse. The line's been weak for several years, yet Ben continues to play as if he had the Great Wall in front of him.

To me, he's one of the top tier QBs in this League, but Elite, I don't see it.

silver & black
12-20-2010, 07:16 AM
I'm not going to read through all this; I'll just answer the question. Ben is a very good QB, but he's not elite.

Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, Joe Montana, Steve Young, Troy Aikman; those are elite QB's.

USWSteel
12-20-2010, 07:21 AM
:thumbsup: What Qb's would you naysayer's take over Ben in the final 2min?

Right now ? As of today...

1. Brady
2.Brees
3.Vick ( spent what 15 months in jail and is running and passing circles around Ben this year !)
4. Peyton Manning
5. Rodgers
6.Rivers
7.Ryan

All these QB's are head are shoulders above Ben this year. Every one of the QB's listed have there own problems with there teams. If you think Ben is playing better then any one of these guys this year your just a homer that cant accept the fact that he is playing below the average NFL Qb this year.

BGSU A Dub
12-20-2010, 07:35 AM
The name of this thread would be "Ben is an elite quarterback!" had we won the game yesterday on one of the last few throws.

Face it: Ben took that game in his hands making great throws and gave us the best possible chance to win. I want to see Brady or Manning run for 20+ yards and I want to see Vick shed multiple tackles when he's in the grasp. Ben has the opportunity to make these kind of plays everytime he touches the ball. Also, I don't think any of the 3 mentioned above would play with a broken nose as well as a broken foot.

SH-Rock
12-20-2010, 07:46 AM
Well to credit Ben on the last drive, we pretty much had that in the bag except
we had confusion between Spaeth and Sanders. It's pretty hard to ask a back up TE and a rookie reciever to play in no huddle 2 minute offense. And what about Sanders is again. He was f'ing held by Cromartie which stopped him from catching the ball in the endzone. And guess what, no flag thrown. I thought the drive was spectacular and only a few QBs could do that against the Jets defense with rookie receivers and back up TEs.

TRH
12-20-2010, 08:46 AM
Its easy to look at stats and say "elite" or "not elite".
I really do think Ben is....although he really missed the boat on those last 2 plays of the game yesterday.

What would Brady, Manning, or Brees play like if they had to play behind our goddawful, non-blocking, penalty-stricken, injured OL ?? And work with Arians? answer that one...
We've all seen how Brady performs when he's under heavy pressure and its not pretty...

plenewken
12-20-2010, 08:57 AM
Its easy to look at stats and say "elite" or "not elite".
I really do think Ben is....although he really missed the boat on those last 2 plays of the game yesterday.

What would Brady, Manning, or Brees play like if they had to play behind our goddawful, non-blocking, penalty-stricken, injured OL ?? And work with Arians? answer that one...
We've all seen how Brady performs when he's under heavy pressure and its not pretty...

Actually, with the time Ben had in the pocket yesterday, Brady would have had another 21-of-29, 326 yards, 4 passing TDs touchdowns day like he had against the Jets 2 weeks ago, not 23-of-44, 264 yards, 1 passing TD like Ben.

TRH
12-20-2010, 09:07 AM
Actually, with the time Ben had in the pocket yesterday, Brady would have had another 21-of-29, 326 yards, 4 passing TDs touchdowns day like he had against the Jets 2 weeks ago, not 23-of-44, 264 yards, 1 passing TD like Ben.


really? Can you guarantee that? You must have a crystal ball.

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 09:10 AM
Actually, with the time Ben had in the pocket yesterday, Brady would have had another 21-of-29, 326 yards, 4 passing TDs touchdowns day like he had against the Jets 2 weeks ago, not 23-of-44, 264 yards, 1 passing TD like Ben.

How often does one see Brady's receivers drop passes that hit them in the hands or run incorrect routes?

SH-Rock
12-20-2010, 09:13 AM
Actually, with the time Ben had in the pocket yesterday, Brady would have had another 21-of-29, 326 yards, 4 passing TDs touchdowns day like he had against the Jets 2 weeks ago, not 23-of-44, 264 yards, 1 passing TD like Ben.

Brady also has no OC to hold him back and has a brilliant, but cheating, head coach. And on the last play what we really needed was a TE and Matt Spaeth just didn't cut it. Sure it's hard to ask him to do another catch like Holmes, but Heath would've given us the better chance.

USWSteel
12-20-2010, 09:18 AM
Its easy to look at stats and say "elite" or "not elite".
I really do think Ben is....although he really missed the boat on those last 2 plays of the game yesterday.

What would Brady, Manning, or Brees play like if they had to play behind our goddawful, non-blocking, penalty-stricken, injured OL ?? And work with Arians? answer that one...
We've all seen how Brady performs when he's under heavy pressure and its not pretty...

He had all day to throw yesterday!!!! Please stop making excuses !!!! Ben is the reason Arians is still here remeber ? Ben lobbied to keep him here 2 years ago. This is the guy BEN WANTS.

Ya Bradys no good under pressure and Bens the only guy that could play behind our line... yadayada...get real. If Brady was the QB yesterday we win by 24. Ben missed a wide open Wallace TWICE yesterday !!!

SteelCityMom
12-20-2010, 09:34 AM
Are you serious? Have you been watching this season, hell no he's not elite. With all the weapons this offense has they are not consistent. Elite QBs are Manning & Brady, everyone talks about our O-Line injuries and that's why the Offense is not good. Ben misses alot of wide open guys, just in this game alone he missed some easy throws. Elite QBs win, period!

Now, I'm in no way saying that Ben is elite (because I think he's just a very good QB at this point in his career)...but if elite QB's (like Manning and Brady) just win, period, then why do the Colts have the worse record? Don't use the injury excuse for them either...Manning is elite, he should just win. Right? :noidea:

SteelCityMom
12-20-2010, 09:36 AM
Somehow I just knew this would turn into another "Brady is awesome" thread. :doh:

Interceptor
12-20-2010, 10:02 AM
I'll give him this: elite or not, even though he has limited mobility (he's no Vick), he's extremely difficult to bring down if you're not tackling him face-to-face. I don't see that with any other QB in the NFL. Pretty unique in this aspect.

USWSteel
12-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Now, I'm in no way saying that Ben is elite (because I think he's just a very good QB at this point in his career)...but if elite QB's (like Manning and Brady) just win, period, then why do the Colts have the worse record? Don't use the injury excuse for them either...Manning is elite, he should just win. Right? :noidea:

I really thought when Ben came back the offense would pick up. Not the case. He just isnt playing good. Below average I believe.

If you really look at the Colts they have been riddled with injuries this year on offense and defense, a lot worse than we have. Manning has tried to carry the Colts by himself and he struggled in a couple games. I sure hope we don't get them in the playoffs !

When Ben struggles all year against some of the league worst teams ( Cinny twice, Buff, Miami)my confidence isn't too high that we can outscore anyone. Really do we have enough offense to out score the Panthers ? I'd like to think so but I'm not so sure.

A couple weeks ago Ben's highlight pass of the year was a pass out of bounds!!! (suggs) . I think Ben's has come up big at times for sure but, it just seems like he never improves, its just the same ole backyard football that keeps almost every team in the games because he is so inconsistent. Looks at the games we lost. Baltimore...Flacco makes a play wins the game. Jets ...Sanchez rolls in on a keeper wins the game. Brady torches the D and we have no shot, Ben's stats were terrible for the first 3 quarters,not until game was out of hand and NE let him complete passes in the prevent. Saints game... Ben's stats 17/28 195 and a INT. We need more out of a 100 million dollar QB. He needs to be improving, but I think his play is actually been regressing. If you wanna blame it on his injuries then maybe he shouldn't be on the field. Thats why you have backup QB's . The Steelers were 3-1 without him and I havent seen really any real improvement the offense since his return. :blah::blah::blah:

plenewken
12-20-2010, 10:07 AM
Somehow I just knew this would turn into another "Brady is awesome" thread. :doh:

I wouldn't say Brady is awesome, but Elite QB , definitely.
Better than Ben? No doubt in my mind either.
Like you said, Ben's a very good QB, one that I would put in the top 5 of his generation for his career achievements so far but he's hasn't shown the same brilliance he's shown earlier in his career.
He's ranked #10 in QB rating and #17 in % of completion so far this season.
That's not a $100M QB performance by any stretch.

SteelCityMom
12-20-2010, 10:12 AM
If you really look at the Colts they have been riddled with injuries this year on offense and defense, a lot worse than we have. Manning has tried to carry the Colts by himself and he struggled in a couple games. I sure hope we don't get them in the playoffs !

So, if you read the comment I was replying to, why is it ok to use the injury excuse with the Colts and not the Steelers offense? Again, I'm not saying Ben is elite...I just found that comment funny. In one breath the guy says that O-line injuries are no excuse and then says that elite QB's (and said Manning was one of them) "just win". That's obviously not true all the time.

If you wanna blame it on his injuries then maybe he shouldn't be on the field. Thats why you have backup QB's . The Steelers were 3-1 without him and I havent seen really any real improvement the offense since his return. :blah::blah::blah:

I wasn't talking about Ben's injuries.

IowaSteeler927
12-20-2010, 10:17 AM
I wouldn't say Brady is awesome, but Elite QB , definitely.
Better than Ben? No doubt in my mind either.
Like you said, Ben's a very good QB, one that I would put in the top 5 of his generation for his career achievements so far but he's hasn't shown the same brilliance he's shown earlier in his career.
He's ranked #10 in QB rating and #17 in % of completion so far this season.
That's not a $100M QB performance by any stretch.

Again he is playing behind a crappy makeshift offensive line, there have been a ridiculous amount of injuries to the team this season, and he has two rookie wide receivers who still show at times that they don't have a complete grasp of the playbook.

He is an ELITE quarterback. Anyone that states otherwise is simply foolish. Two Super Bowl rings and an epic game winning drive in one of the most spectacular Super Bowls(43) I have ever had the privilege of watching make him an ELITE quarterback. I don't see anyone nay saying Peyton Manning after his stretch of craptastic play. Roethlisberger has less to work with on Offense than Brady, the Manning Bros, Drew Brees, and Matt Ryan. Yet he still makes enough plays to keep the team in a position to win. Insert any other QB into the Steelers offense and it would be a total disaster. Shady Brady would get his knees broke and his spine snapped.

Lastly Ben has been able to make plays despite Bruce Arians atrocious playcalling. Ben Roethlisberger = ELITE NFL QUARTERBACK.

Curtain_of_Steel
12-20-2010, 10:24 AM
Elite QB, it shouldn't even be discussed or questioned.

Can't question the Ref's here without closing threads, but a 2 time Superbowl QB can be, lol.

plenewken
12-20-2010, 10:43 AM
Again he is playing behind a crappy makeshift offensive line, there have been a ridiculous amount of injuries to the team this season, and he has two rookie wide receivers who still show at times that they don't have a complete grasp of the playbook.

He is an ELITE quarterback. Anyone that states otherwise is simply foolish. Two Super Bowl rings and an epic game winning drive in one of the most spectacular Super Bowls(43) I have ever had the privilege of watching make him an ELITE quarterback. I don't see anyone nay saying Peyton Manning after his stretch of craptastic play. Roethlisberger has less to work with on Offense than Brady, the Manning Bros, Drew Brees, and Matt Ryan. Yet he still makes enough plays to keep the team in a position to win. Insert any other QB into the Steelers offense and it would be a total disaster. Shady Brady would get his knees broke and his spine snapped.

Lastly Ben has been able to make plays despite Bruce Arians atrocious playcalling. Ben Roethlisberger = ELITE NFL QUARTERBACK.

You have the right to consider Ben an elite QB and I have the right to disagree with you. This doesn't make me foolish ..... nor you. It's my opinion and it's as valid as yours.

steelerchad
12-20-2010, 11:03 AM
Since his 2nd year, I've always thought of Ben as a top 5 QB. If that's elite, then he is in my opionion and there are a lot of stats that back that up. Manning, Brady, and Brees have been the standard since Ben has been in the leauge and his numbers actually compare him fairly well against these guys since he's been in the league. I put him in the group right behind these 3 with Rodgers and Rivers at 4,5,6. Last year a couple of old guys would have been in the mix as well with Favre and Warner rounding out the top 8.

He currently stands 10th at a 92.6 passer rating with 14 TD's and only 5 picks. He's just slightly ahead of P. Manning who is having a very down year for him.

plenewken
12-20-2010, 11:54 AM
Since his 2nd year, I've always thought of Ben as a top 5 QB. If that's elite, then he is in my opionion and there are a lot of stats that back that up. Manning, Brady, and Brees have been the standard since Ben has been in the leauge and his numbers actually compare him fairly well against these guys since he's been in the league. I put him in the group right behind these 3 with Rodgers and Rivers at 4,5,6. Last year a couple of old guys would have been in the mix as well with Favre and Warner rounding out the top 8.

He currently stands 10th at a 92.6 passer rating with 14 TD's and only 5 picks. He's just slightly ahead of P. Manning who is having a very down year for him.

#10 in QB rating and #17 in completion is not satisfactory coming from a so-called Elite QB.
He's #5 in my book at this point. I put Brady, Manning, Brees and Vick ahead of him.
Vick is coming back very strong and I'm very impressed with what he has done this year, after being suspended for 2 seasons.

Third Rail
12-20-2010, 12:07 PM
My only complaint about Ben right now is his red zone efficiency. However, I'm still not sure that's his fault. Half the time we are in the red zone, we hand it off on 1st and 2nd & Goal and get stuffed. So Ben then has ONE shot to make a play to a bunch of receivers who can't even get open when they have the entire field to run in... so of course trying to get separation in a much smaller space is often impossible for them. And then of course, the O-Line loves to miss blocks in the red zone.

I'm not sure how to fix this problem. I see Brady and Manning make red zone TDs all the time, but I just think their offensive scheming and overall talent (OL, WRs, TEs, RBs) are better that ours are in this situation.

I think this is where most of the Arians hate really comes to a head. He actually called a decent game yesterday for most of the field. But of course... 4 trips to the red zone and only 2 TDs and 2 FGs to show for it (and that's a GOOD day for him).

steelerchad
12-20-2010, 12:19 PM
#10 in QB rating and #17 in completion is not satisfactory coming from a so-called Elite QB.
He's #5 in my book at this point. I put Brady, Manning, Brees and Vick ahead of him.
Vick is coming back very strong and I'm very impressed with what he has done this year, after being suspended for 2 seasons.

Of course you put Vick in there this season. But this is by far Michael Vick's best season. Let's see him do it for a couple years straight before annointing him. Ben's been a consistent top 5 QB during most of his career. Vick has this year only. If you're just going to take this year, you can remove Manning as well since he's only on the list based on history. He's having an off year so far.

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 12:24 PM
#10 in QB rating and #17 in completion is not satisfactory coming from a so-called Elite QB.
He's #5 in my book at this point. I put Brady, Manning, Brees and Vick ahead of him.
Vick is coming back very strong and I'm very impressed with what he has done this year, after being suspended for 2 seasons.

Manning is currently ranked 11th in QB rating, so how is he elite, since Ben's #10 ranking in the same category is "unsatisfactory"? Something tells me you're one of those that simply have never been and will never be satisfied with Ben no matter what he does, and even more so since the sexual assault allegations.

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 12:39 PM
Elite QB, it shouldn't even be discussed or questioned.

If Spaeth does his job and hangs on to the ball in the end zone at the end of the game yesterday, it wouldn't be.

plenewken
12-20-2010, 12:49 PM
Manning is currently ranked 11th in QB rating, so how is he elite, since Ben's #10 ranking in the same category is "unsatisfactory"? Something tells me you're one of those that simply have never been and will never be satisfied with Ben no matter what he does, and even more so since the sexual assault allegations.

Drop the pipe, dude, I've never mentioned anything about Ben's off-the-field issues and I couldn't care less from a strict football standpoint. The same applies to Michael Vick.
As for Manning, I rank him above Ben based on his career stats, even if his numbers this year dropped dramatically.
Look at Manning's stats since Ben plays, they're well above Ben's, except the number of SB wins.
I don't have a problem including the number of SB wins in the equation, but in this case, at least recognize that Ben's 1st SB ring was won despite him and not thanks to him.

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 12:53 PM
Drop the pipe, dude, I've never mentioned anything about Ben's off-the-field issues and I couldn't care less from a strict football standpoint. The same applies to Michael Vick.
As for Manning, I rank him above Ben based on his career stats, even if his numbers this year dropped dramatically.
Look at Manning's stats since Ben plays, they're well above Ben's, except the number of SB wins.
I don't have a problem including the number of SB wins in the equation, but in this case, at least recognize that Ben's 1st SB ring was won despite him and not thanks to him.

OK, so Manning is elite and Ben isn't because of "career numbers", but Vick is elite and Ben isn't solely because of this year. How convenient.

You're the one who needs to drop the pipe, "dude."

plenewken
12-20-2010, 01:11 PM
OK, so Manning is elite and Ben isn't because of "career numbers", but Vick is elite and Ben isn't solely because of this year. How convenient.

You're the one who needs to drop the pipe, "dude."

OK, so Manning is elite and Ben isn't because of "career numbers", but Vick is elite and Ben isn't solely because of this year. How convenient.

You're the one who needs to drop the pipe, "dude."

I said IF Elite is 5 QBs based on this season, then Ben doesn't belong in it and Vick does
If it's based on career accomplishments, I only see 2 active Elite QBs, and they're Brady and Manning. Brees and Ben are the closest to join them.

Fire Arians
12-20-2010, 01:27 PM
ben is elite, bruce arians is not.

steelerdave1969
12-20-2010, 03:02 PM
Drop the pipe, dude, I've never mentioned anything about Ben's off-the-field issues and I couldn't care less from a strict football standpoint. The same applies to Michael Vick.
As for Manning, I rank him above Ben based on his career stats, even if his numbers this year dropped dramatically.
Look at Manning's stats since Ben plays, they're well above Ben's, except the number of SB wins.
I don't have a problem including the number of SB wins in the equation, but in this case, at least recognize that Ben's 1st SB ring was won despite him and not thanks to him.

For anyone that is not on Crack they should find it very easy to know that Peyton Manning is an Elite QB Hands Down . .. anyone that says he isnt is just a Nut Case. I believe that Payton Manning would have a great career with this Steelers Offensive line as well, cuz he is More Accurate and gets the ball out alot quicker than Ben ever has or ever will. Ben is Not that Accurate when it comes to getting the ball out Quickly . . Manning and Brady are 2 of the Very Best Ever at doing that.

pete74
12-20-2010, 04:49 PM
For anyone that is not on Crack they should find it very easy to know that Peyton Manning is an Elite QB Hands Down . .. anyone that says he isnt is just a Nut Case. I believe that Payton Manning would have a great career with this Steelers Offensive line as well, cuz he is More Accurate and gets the ball out alot quicker than Ben ever has or ever will. Ben is Not that Accurate when it comes to getting the ball out Quickly . . Manning and Brady are 2 of the Very Best Ever at doing that.

i agree. Ben is great but he isnt in the above mentioned QB's league. they are both more acurate and they have very quick releases. Ben plays a different kind of ball and with it you will have some highs and some lows.

btaylor179
12-20-2010, 04:53 PM
tom brady doesn't have elite rbs or receivers or a defense......and they beat us handidly and trounced the jets.....bens good but not elite....we won 3 and easily should've been 4 games w out ben....

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 05:05 PM
tom brady doesn't have elite rbs or receivers or a defense......

No, just an offensive line that consistently gives him enough time to have a cup of coffee and read the newspaper back there before he decides to throw. For example, did you see how much time he got on the one TD pass last night right before the half? It had to have been around 8-10 seconds, at least. It's also no coincidence that the one time Manning doesn't have a healthy All-Pro line in front of him that he winds up struggling more than at any other point of his career. Sorry, put Manning or Brady behind our line, and they would struggle mightily - probably more than Ben has.

plenewken
12-20-2010, 05:30 PM
No, just an offensive line that consistently gives him enough time to have a cup of coffee and read the newspaper back there before he decides to throw. For example, did you see how much time he got on the one TD pass last night right before the half? It had to have been around 8-10 seconds, at least. It's also no coincidence that the one time Manning doesn't have a healthy All-Pro line in front of him that he winds up struggling more than at any other point of his career. Sorry, put Manning or Brady behind our line, and they would struggle mightily - probably more than Ben has.

When you're a $100M QB, you must to find a way to overcome the weaknesses of your OL. Behind a great line like NE, Ben won't be faster nor more accurate nor more mobile.
Yesterday, he was given at least 5-6 secs and yet, that didn't make him capable of taking the Jets defense apart.
He's struggling as much as the rest of the offense and I maintain that I don't think we're getting $100M worth of production from him.
I'm not harping on the guy but I'm not trying to find all the excuses of the world for his sloppy play either.

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 05:40 PM
When you're a $100M QB, you must to find a way to overcome the weaknesses of your OL. Behind a great line like NE, Ben won't be faster nor more accurate nor more mobile.
Yesterday, he was given at least 5-6 secs and yet, that didn't make him capable of taking the Jets defense apart.
He's struggling as much as the rest of the offense and I maintain that I don't think we're getting $100M worth of production from him.
I'm not harping on the guy but I'm not trying to find all the excuses of the world for his sloppy play either.

Which leads me back to my initial post about how many times he's put it in a receiver's hands only to have it dropped. How many drops do Brady's or Manning's receivers typically have? Not as many as Ben's, that I can guarantee you.

plenewken
12-20-2010, 06:04 PM
Which leads me back to my initial post about how many times he's put it in a receiver's hands only to have it dropped. How many drops do Brady's or Manning's receivers typically have? Not as many as Ben's, that I can guarantee you.

I don't think Ben has more dropped passes than anyone else. I have also seen completed passes that should have been incompletions. Randle El's last week and Miller's the week before were completely off target.

You obviously see Ben through rosy glasses because pretty much every football expert agrees that Ben's not a very accurate passer. He has other qualities but accuracy is not one of them.

rich4eagle
12-20-2010, 06:19 PM
the reason why i say that is b/c we have never been an elite O since ben has been starter. our O has had games, moments, but nothing with any true consistency. brees, rives, manning, and brady all put points. when other teams play those guys, they have that pressure to score points. i was watching our game and i thought sanchez and ben are basically the same b/c both teams are not threaten at all by the other teams O. i'm not bashing ben. i believe he's a good, solid qb but at times, ben is still raw. maybe i'm just expecting more with ben by now.

btw, i could care less about the loss. there are dozen way(s) to lose games but we need to be more productive on the O side. the rules won't allow us to beat a real qb 12-10. it's not happening.

GEEZ SINCE he won two bowls the first since the 70's and we no real power running game and no ALL PRO KICK BUtt RECIEVER AND YEAH A SIEVE FOR AN OFFENSIVE LINE.....

HE IS JUST ORDINARY AND LUCKY WITH NOTHING TO WORK WITH ON OFFENSE:tt::tt::tt::tt:

figg
12-20-2010, 06:25 PM
Right now ? As of today...

1. Brady
2.Brees
3.Vick ( spent what 15 months in jail and is running and passing circles around Ben this year !)
4. Peyton Manning
5. Rodgers
6.Rivers
7.Ryan

All these QB's are head are shoulders above Ben this year. Every one of the QB's listed have there own problems with there teams. If you think Ben is playing better then any one of these guys this year your just a homer that cant accept the fact that he is playing below the average NFL Qb this year.

Manning choked in the SB last year lol. Vick,Ryan,Rodgers,and Rivers havent won a big game in their life lmao!

rrage
12-20-2010, 06:33 PM
Ben is an elite quarterback. It's not even questionable in my book and quite honesty it disgusts me that anyone on here would even call Roethlisberger into question like this. We got two super bowl wins with Ben at the helm and that alone says something about his leadership of this team.

There are guys like Tom Brady and Peyton Manning who get more credit than they truly deserve. They play behind elite offensive lines, and their lineman don't get the credit that they deserve. Ben Roethlisberger has played behind mediocre offensive lines ever since we left Alan Faneca go he has had to deal with a lot of injuries to his offensive lines over the past years. Despite the fact that the offensive line play has been poor he still plays great football. He is consistently getting out of sacks and extending plays that should have been broken.

There are games where guys like Brady and Manning don't even so much as get a grass stain on their jersey or get knocked to the turf for that matter. There hasn't been one game that I can remember where Roethlisberger hasn't spent a good portion of the game taking hits. Despite all of this Roethlisberger just plays the game and actually defends his lineman as evidenced by his comments after Super Bowl 43 when he called out all of the doubters of his offensive line.

This year is a perfect example of how good of a quarterback Ben really is. Despite having a broken foot and a broken nose he still manages to play well enough to get a win against the Ravens last week. Another example to prove my point that Ben is in fact and elite level QB is the Colts record this year. The colts suffered a ton of injuries and had a couple of lineman down as well as receivers. Manning threw the most interceptions in a three game span that I have ever seen him throw. Under pressure he wasn't able to extend plays or make quick decisions and often forced the ball into coverage. It goes to show how great receivers and great offensive lineman make quarterbacks look elite. It's all fine and dandy taking all the credit and gushing before the media when you have a great game but we all saw how Manning was sulken and depressed when he was throwing more interceptions than touchdowns and dealing with injuries.

Despite the Steelers having some injuries at bad times throughout this season however, we still have a 10-4 record and we would be 11-3 if it were not for the Jets twelfth man )the officials) inability to make holding and pass interference calls in key situations where the penalties were more than blatantly obvious.

You hit everything spot on and Ben is definitely elite but unfortunately his offensive line & weapons have never been elite. His offense as a whole has been just above average but never had a game breaker. Wallace is turning into a game breaker but his o-line takes away from that by not giving Ben time to sit back and view the field as Manning & Brady have. I am pretty confident that neither Brady or Manning would have the stats they due if they played their entire careers behind Ben's o-lines.

MasterOfPuppets
12-20-2010, 06:33 PM
ben is playing with a handicap....bruce arians.

figg
12-20-2010, 06:34 PM
I don't think Ben has more dropped passes than anyone else. I have also seen completed passes that should have been incompletions. Randle El's last week and Miller's the week before were completely off target.

You obviously see Ben through rosy glasses because pretty much every football expert agrees that Ben's not a very accurate passer. He has other qualities but accuracy is not one of them.

Ben has completed 63 percent of his passes in his career. :thumbsup:
Rivers 63.8
Vick 55.2
Ryan 60.8
Rogers 64.3

rrage
12-20-2010, 06:39 PM
ben is playing with a handicap....bruce arians.

thats the other part i left out, BA just isnt the answer, the first superbowl when we palyed as the 6th seed was the last time that he truly called the best games of his entire career.

FanSince72
12-20-2010, 06:46 PM
From a statistical point of view, Ben is average.

But then so were Terry Bradshaw and John Elway.

But when you add Ben to that list, (with his "average" stats), you have three QB's who collectively don't rank very high in any of the top five statistical categories but between them they've won nearly twenty percent of all the Superbowls ever played.

Not bad for three guys who are statistically "average" QB's.

Brady is the one guy who ranks well in terms of "W's", Hardware and stats and because of that he deserves the number one rank right now.

But Brady, as well as Manning and even to some extent Joe Montana are all QB's who's success is very much a product of the systems in which they played. Each of them posted gaudy numbers when the systems works well, but each of them (with the possible exception of Montana) fall apart like cheap suits when their system breaks down and they have to improvise.

Ben, Elway and Bradshaw, on the other hand, are all QB's who could work just as well with or without a system and actually play BETTER when things break down making each of them better "money" QB's than all of the others.

Ben has similar qualities to both Bradshaw and Elway and for my money, I'd rather give him the ball when it counts more so than the others because whether the game plan is working or not, whether the receivers are running the right routes or not, or if the defense is coming up with surprises no one planned for, Ben stands a better chance of getting it done because he can "freelance" better than anyone I've seen.

Statistically, he doesn't add up to much but statistics don't win games - talent does and Ben has the talent to succeed with or without a properly working system and to me that is an invaluable ability to have.

If you want to call me a homer, that's fine. But with 2:00 to go in a championship game, I'd rather have my money on Ben than anyone else out there.

SteelCityMom
12-20-2010, 06:47 PM
thats the other part i left out, BA just isnt the answer, the first superbowl when we palyed as the 6th seed was the last time that he truly called the best games of his entire career.

Wisenhunt was the OC then.

rrage
12-20-2010, 06:48 PM
No, just an offensive line that consistently gives him enough time to have a cup of coffee and read the newspaper back there before he decides to throw. For example, did you see how much time he got on the one TD pass last night right before the half? It had to have been around 8-10 seconds, at least. It's also no coincidence that the one time Manning doesn't have a healthy All-Pro line in front of him that he winds up struggling more than at any other point of his career. Sorry, put Manning or Brady behind our line, and they would struggle mightily - probably more than Ben has.

exactly, Ben would probably be just as good or right behind them. I admit Ben isnt as consistently accurate as Brady or Manning but he is no slouch either. What kills Ben is his reluctance to check down and BA to run shorter dink and dunk passes as Brady & manning's offensive coordinators do.

MasterOfPuppets
12-20-2010, 06:49 PM
Wisenhunt was the OC then.
oops....:toofunny:

rrage
12-20-2010, 06:50 PM
Wisenhunt was the OC then.
true so its even worse, BA sucks, LMAO

SteelCityMom
12-20-2010, 06:51 PM
true so its even worse, BA sucks, LMAO

You've seen the light...Hallelujah! :chuckle:

jacksolomon
12-20-2010, 07:10 PM
You obviously see Ben through rosy glasses because pretty much every football expert agrees that Ben's not a very accurate passer. He has other qualities but accuracy is not one of them.

Ben has completed 63% of his passes on his career. Manning has completed 65%. Brady has completed 63.7%. What "experts" say he isn't accurate? The completion percentage tells a different story. Moreover, his yards-per-attempt is well over both of theirs, meaning he doesn't live on the dink and dunk (see Brady in particular).

I don't look at Ben through rose-colored glasses. He doesn't spend nearly enough time in the film room to my liking. I am simply not hypercritical and impossible to please like yourself.

rrage
12-20-2010, 07:14 PM
Ben has completed 63% of his passes on his career. Manning has completed 65%. Brady has completed 63.7%. What "experts" say he isn't accurate? The completion percentage tells a different story. Moreover, his yards-per-attempt is well over both of theirs, meaning he doesn't live on the dink and dunk (see Brady in particular).

I don't look at Ben through rose-colored glasses. He doesn't spend nearly enough time in the film room to my liking. I am simply not hypercritical and impossible to please like yourself.

good stat, now everyone else stfu. lol, jk

cloppbeast
12-20-2010, 07:37 PM
Actually, with the time Ben had in the pocket yesterday, Brady would have had another 21-of-29, 326 yards, 4 passing TDs touchdowns day like he had against the Jets 2 weeks ago, not 23-of-44, 264 yards, 1 passing TD like Ben.

The Patriots play the Jets twice. A great strategic coach like Belichick will come up with game plan to tear a team apart when he sees them twice a year.

In week 2, the first time the Patriots played the Jets, Brady was 20/36 for 248 yards with 2 TDs and 2 INTs.

cloppbeast
12-20-2010, 07:54 PM
This whole debate depends on how you define 'elite'.

Some might say the top 2 are elite, some may say the top 5, others may say the top 10. Whatever.

I'm not sure how you define elite, but for me, I don't think he is either. I do think he's very good, and there's few I would trade him for.

His situation in Pittsburgh is somewhat of a handicap on one hand, and on the other it's a positive.

He would certainly benefit from an offensive coordinator who could better use his strengths. BA holds him back in that regard. Ben would be a lot more proficient with an offensive coordinator who would let him run the no huddle more often, or one who wouldn't call such predictable plays.

Then again, he's fortunate to have a great defense.

Ben wouldn't be as good as Brady in New England, nor would he be as good as Manning in Indianapolis. But if Brady or Manning played for the Steelers last night, I think the offense would have probably put up 24 or more. Of course, this is all speculation.

rrage
12-20-2010, 07:59 PM
This whole debate depends on how you define 'elite'.

Some might say the top 2 are elite, some may say the top 5, others may say the top 10. Whatever.

I'm not sure how you define elite, but for me, I don't think he is either. I do think he's very good, and there's few I would trade him for.

His situation in Pittsburgh is somewhat of a handicap on one hand, and on the other it's a positive.

He would certainly benefit from an offensive coordinator who could better use his strengths. BA holds him back in that regard. Ben would be a lot more proficient with an offensive coordinator who would let him run the no huddle more often, or one who wouldn't call such predictable plays.

Then again, he's fortunate to have a great defense.

Ben wouldn't be as good as Brady in New England, nor would he be as good as Manning in Indianapolis. But if Brady or Manning played for the Steelers last night, I think the offense would have probably put up 24 or more. Of course, this is all speculation.

What helps Brady is that his team rarely kills its own drives by dropping passes, dumb penalties and oh yea the refs.

MDSteel15
12-20-2010, 08:00 PM
Are you serious? Have you been watching this season, hell no he's not elite. With all the weapons this offense has they are not consistent. Elite QBs are Manning & Brady, everyone talks about our O-Line injuries and that's why the Offense is not good. Ben misses alot of wide open guys, just in this game alone he missed some easy throws. Elite QBs win, period!

I call bullshit! Rivers is on that list up there and he hasn't done anything! Was Steve Young an elite QB? NO! He had an awesome team handed to him or he would have won with waht he had in Tampa!

PhantomJB93
12-20-2010, 08:10 PM
As others have said, it depends on the definition of "elite."

To me, he is not right now. He could (and I think he will) be later on in his career, and he will never be "Manning, Brady, Marino, Montana" elite in the sense that he was vital to his team's success, and perhaps that will be an argument for years to come as people always have and probably always will say he couldn't have done it without our defense. But I do think he is something special even without the flashiest stats and, later on down the road when Manning and Brady are gone, Roethlisberger will be one of those qb's that are "in a class of their own"

rrage
12-20-2010, 08:18 PM
Im going to propose a different scenario and see what you guys think. Which is more likely to happen, Ben eventually playing close to the likes of Brady and Manning or them playing like Ben with his improvisational skills, escapability and extending the play to make a big play out of nothing.

mizzouristeeler
12-20-2010, 08:59 PM
Brady or manning could never extend a play like roethlisberger can. Let brady play with a blitzer in his face all day

USWSteel
12-20-2010, 10:56 PM
Brady or manning could never extend a play like roethlisberger can. Let brady play with a blitzer in his face all day

Your right. Manning and Brady make split second decisions to throw the ball quickly, they have confidence in there accuracy and can put it in a receivers hands 90 times out of a 100 most of the time never breaking stride. Ben cannot do that nearly as often. He waits until a play breaks down and a receiver is lost his coverage to throw the ball. If he would throw the ball instead of pump faking on almost every passing pass he would be far better off. People says he doesnt have time to throw but yet has time to stand back and do 2 or 3 pump fakes, drives me crazy.He has to have the NFL all-time record for pump faking I swear ! I really believe this part of his game will never improve. I dont think he has confidence in his own accuracy or he would be get rid of the ball quicker. :tt04:

JEFF4i
12-20-2010, 11:35 PM
Elite. /thread

OX1947
12-20-2010, 11:41 PM
As funny as this may sound, but if Big Ben wins 5 more games this year, he would become a first ballet hall of famer. Whether someone wants to call him elite or not, no way a 3 time starter at the Qb position winning 3 titles is being left off the Hall of Fame line.

Steelers need the bye week, they need to click at the right time and they need their main guys at full strength. There is only one team the Steelers need to worry about, thats the Patriots. And I am pretty sure if the Steelers get the #2 seed, they can win their first game and face NE in the AFC title game, there will be some interesting history in the making events in that game.

steelerjim58
12-20-2010, 11:44 PM
Brady and Manning { who would be my first choice to qb my team in his prime} would take such a beating in this offense, that they would never finish a season healthy. Brady looks good because he plays in an offense that would make any competent qb look good. Manning plays behind a great offensive line and in an offense that allows him to control everything. Ben is an elite qb playing behind a mediocre at best offensive line.

BigRick
12-20-2010, 11:51 PM
I call bullshit! Rivers is on that list up there and he hasn't done anything! Was Steve Young an elite QB? NO! He had an awesome team handed to him or he would have won with waht he had in Tampa!

I agree San Diego drafted Rivers because they wanted to get rid of Brees. Worked out pretty good for Brees. The only reason Young quarterbacked that team was because Montana went to KC. If Ben isn,t an elite QB what is? If Manning is such an elite QB where is all of his rings? :tt03:

ZoneBlitzer
12-21-2010, 03:23 AM
I've changed my mind. Yes, his completion percentage hasn't been up to where it has been in the past but he did make the throw that was needed to win the game.

Unfortunately for Ben, Spaeth was the goat of the day as he not only interfered with his pass attempt to Sanders, he also dropped an easy catch in the end zone in the process. Closer video review has revealed this. Ben delivered as only an elite QB can. His teammates, well Matt Spaeth, failed him.

IowaSteeler927
12-21-2010, 06:12 AM
Your right. Manning and Brady make split second decisions to throw the ball quickly, they have confidence in there accuracy and can put it in a receivers hands 90 times out of a 100 most of the time never breaking stride. Ben cannot do that nearly as often. He waits until a play breaks down and a receiver is lost his coverage to throw the ball. If he would throw the ball instead of pump faking on almost every passing pass he would be far better off. People says he doesnt have time to throw but yet has time to stand back and do 2 or 3 pump fakes, drives me crazy.He has to have the NFL all-time record for pump faking I swear ! I really believe this part of his game will never improve. I dont think he has confidence in his own accuracy or he would be get rid of the ball quicker. :tt04:

He pump fakes to dicate the direction the defense goes. Pump faking when done right can allow a receiver to get open when they normally would have been covered. As for Brady and Manning they have better receivers and a better offensive line. WIth better receivers better decisions can be made. Hines Ward is starting to get old, Emmanuel Sanders is a rookie, Antonio Brown is a rookie, and MIke Wallace is the speedster/deep threat. Ben doesn't have a Wes Welker to run the short and intermediate routes, nor does he have a Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon, or Dallas Clark. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have extensive supporting casts and great offensive line units. Roethlisber has a makeshift offensive line, rookie receivers, and a veteran receiver that while still playing pretty well is starting to show his age a bit.

Despite all the negatives Ben still manages to make plays and I think it is utterly and completely ridiculous that anyone would question whether or not he is an elite QB.

silver & black
12-21-2010, 07:11 AM
After reading through this, I think the real argument isn't if Ben is an elite QB or not, it's is Ben a winning QB or not. Obviously, he is a winning QB.

Elite doesn't necessarily mean Superbowl wins. Marino was an elite QB that never won a championship. Had he had the the team around him that Ben has... who knows?

Ben plays the way he does because he's a big, strong guy... it works for him. Montana could have never played like Ben... he would have gotten killed. Ben is probably the best QB fit for this particular Steelers team... which is why it works so well.

It's a silly argument... ALL winning QB's have some elite quality about them. ALL elite QB's are the right fit at the right time for their respective teams. Just be happy you have the right guy at the right time...... only a small percentage of teams have that guy at any given time.

IowaSteeler927
12-21-2010, 08:22 AM
After reading through this, I think the real argument isn't if Ben is an elite QB or not, it's is Ben a winning QB or not. Obviously, he is a winning QB.

Elite doesn't necessarily mean Superbowl wins. Marino was an elite QB that never won a championship. Had he had the the team around him that Ben has... who knows?

Ben plays the way he does because he's a big, strong guy... it works for him. Montana could have never played like Ben... he would have gotten killed. Ben is probably the best QB fit for this particular Steelers team... which is why it works so well.

It's a silly argument... ALL winning QB's have some elite quality about them. ALL elite QB's are the right fit at the right time for their respective teams. Just be happy you have the right guy at the right time...... only a small percentage of teams have that guy at any given time.

Marino would not have done well in the current Steelers offense the reason being that Marino was not a mobile quarterback. He did not have the size of Roethlisberger or escapability. Put Marino on the current Patriots team or in with a healthy Colts offense though and I think it would be a no brainer that he could win a Super Bowl.

Anywho I totally agree with the last statement you made. I don't think it could have been put any better.

USWSteel
12-21-2010, 02:52 PM
He pump fakes to dicate the direction the defense goes. Pump faking when done right can allow a receiver to get open when they normally would have been covered. As for Brady and Manning they have better receivers and a better offensive line. WIth better receivers better decisions can be made. Hines Ward is starting to get old, Emmanuel Sanders is a rookie, Antonio Brown is a rookie, and MIke Wallace is the speedster/deep threat. Ben doesn't have a Wes Welker to run the short and intermediate routes, nor does he have a Reggie Wayne, Austin Collie, Pierre Garcon, or Dallas Clark. Tom Brady and Peyton Manning have extensive supporting casts and great offensive line units. Roethlisber has a makeshift offensive line, rookie receivers, and a veteran receiver that while still playing pretty well is starting to show his age a bit.

Despite all the negatives Ben still manages to make plays and I think it is utterly and completely ridiculous that anyone would question whether or not he is an elite QB.
Hey the Steelers have just as much talent on offense as the Colts or the Pats, neither one of those teams has a decent RB for christ sake. As for that incessant pump fake, it needs to go....its not fooling anyone. Ben has more had than enough talent around him during his years here with the steelers. He has been average to below average this year. Everybody just stop thinking we cant win games without Ben ....WE WERE 3-1 WITHOUT BEN THIS YEAR !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WOULD HAVE BEEN 4-0 if the D held on the last drive. Ben has been here 7 years, I have seen no improvement in his game really at all in the last 5 years. He certainly isnt a accurate passer. Sure he makes some plays improvising but he has become too reliant on that. Thats the real reason the offense has stunk this year. He is making 100 million he's not playing like it. If your 100 million dollar QB cant lead his team to 24 points a game with this defense supporting him .... he is failing. How many championships do you think Ben would have if he was drafted to the Browns ? I'd say zero. Probably wouldn't even have a winning season up there. Ben has helped the steelers for sure, but he is damn lucky to come on a fairly stacked team on offense and defense since hes been here.

jacksolomon
12-21-2010, 03:02 PM
How many championships do you think Ben would have if he was drafted to the Browns ? I'd say zero. Probably wouldn't even have a winning season up there. Ben has helped the steelers for sure, but he is damn lucky to come on a fairly stacked team on offense and defense since hes been here.

How many stacked Steelers teams fell short during the Cowher era due to truly poor QB play? Answer: a LOT. We just coincidentally win 2 Super Bowls since Ben's been with the team after over a decade of constantly falling short? Sure. Keep on thinking that.

Steelboy84
12-21-2010, 03:11 PM
The Steelers won 0 SBs between 1980 and 2006, during a time with top defenses and rushing attacks. The idea that Ben doesn't make a difference and simply "rides" his defense is nonsense.

Of course he's elite. Not a classic drop back QB, different style, but he's the best play making QB in the NFL.

SteelerEmpire
12-21-2010, 06:02 PM
If he could connect with Wallace on those long bombs just 80 percent of the time when Wallace has his man beat ... he would certainly be elite in my book...

ZoneBlitzer
12-21-2010, 06:11 PM
If he could connect with Wallace on those long bombs just 80 percent of the time when Wallace has his man beat ... he would certainly be elite in my book...

That's true. His deep ball is horrible.

thumper
12-21-2010, 07:01 PM
Two Super Bowl wins with teams with very good defenses but not
shit loads of other top talent. I don't know how many QBs could win
rings with those teams, but not that many. Ben wins. He gives us a
chance to win when our play calling is horse shit (if they let him go
no huddle at some point) and OL is sub par (even though they didn't
play that bad vs. Jets, they are still below average.) Ben produces wins,
period. And that is all you can ask.

USWSteel
12-21-2010, 09:48 PM
Two Super Bowl wins with teams with very good defenses but not
shit loads of other top talent. I don't know how many QBs could win
rings with those teams, but not that many. Ben wins. He gives us a
chance to win when our play calling is horse shit (if they let him go
no huddle at some point) and OL is sub par (even though they didn't
play that bad vs. Jets, they are still below average.) Ben produces wins,
period. And that is all you can ask.

He produces period ? What happened Sunday ? Sanchez stinks and he beat our defense. If Sanchez stinks whats that say for Ben. Must stink worse than Sanchez. Ben has had a good run here, but HE is not improving. We barely outscored Buffalo for god sakes. When is he just going to take over a game and just dominate the other teams with a lights out performance like other ELITE QBS do ?? If he doesnt lead this offense to at least a 30 pt win against the Panthers a team that just got its second win, he cant even be considered a average QB this year.

ONE OTHER THING .... Brett Farve first ballot HOFer for sure right ? Is he a ELITE QB THIS YEAR ???? NO FREAKING WAY..... NEITHER IS BEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fire Arians
12-21-2010, 09:53 PM
He produces period ? What happened Sunday ? Sanchez stinks and he beat our defense. If Sanchez stinks whats that say for Ben. Must stink worse than Sanchez. Ben has had a good run here, but HE is not improving. We barely outscored Buffalo for god sakes. When is he just going to take over a game and just dominate the other teams with a lights out performance like other ELITE QBS do ?? If he doesnt lead this offense to at least a 30 pt win against the Panthers a team that just got its second win, he cant even be considered a average QB this year.

ONE OTHER THING .... Brett Farve first ballot HOFer for sure right ? Is he a ELITE QB THIS YEAR ???? NO FREAKING WAY..... NEITHER IS BEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you think manning or brady could win behind our o-line?

saveus1011
12-21-2010, 10:47 PM
He produces period ? What happened Sunday ? Sanchez stinks and he beat our defense. If Sanchez stinks whats that say for Ben. Must stink worse than Sanchez. Ben has had a good run here, but HE is not improving. We barely outscored Buffalo for god sakes. When is he just going to take over a game and just dominate the other teams with a lights out performance like other ELITE QBS do ?? If he doesnt lead this offense to at least a 30 pt win against the Panthers a team that just got its second win, he cant even be considered a average QB this year.

ONE OTHER THING .... Brett Farve first ballot HOFer for sure right ? Is he a ELITE QB THIS YEAR ???? NO FREAKING WAY..... NEITHER IS BEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you sure you're a Steelers fan?

austinfrench76
12-21-2010, 10:54 PM
Any man who can stand behind the O LInes that he's had and not only perform but win a SB and put up the numbers he did last year. Elite?! VERY, VERY ELITE! Give him a damn line, then start questioning his status.

Steelers17
12-21-2010, 11:02 PM
Too much instability with Big Ben. Every year there is something going on with him. There is no consistency. Elite Qb's like Manning and Brady are focused on football all the time with their shares of TV or endorsements. But football is priority 1. I don't feel like Big Ben is priority 1 with football. Maybe 1A with other things in life.

Guys like Big Ben are not typically 2 time Super Bowl winners though. So I think Ben might be an anomaly where he isn't a true elite QB but plays like one when it matters but then again, doesn't do it game in and game out.

He likely has preliminary plans in place for Benapalooza 2011 as we speak. :tt03:

dez09231
12-22-2010, 02:32 AM
lol @ people who are saying he isn't elite. . . *shakes my head*. . .


Ben not only has more comebacks than "Captain Comeback" Roger Staubach, but he's also on pace to outdo Dan Marino and John Elway.

Assuming Ben gets a mere 3,000 passing yards per season for the next 5 years, which is conservative seeing as that would put him at 33, he'll be top 15 all-time.

Again, assuming Ben plays for 5 more years, if he gets a mere 15 TD's per year, he'll be top 15 all-time.

Ben, age 28, is one of 10 all-time NFL QB's to have 2 Super Bowl rings.

Ben is 10th all-time in QB rating.

Ben is the youngest QB to ever win a Super Bowl.

Ben is not only 6th all-time in yards per attempt, but he's also 13th all-time in completion percentage. . . so not only does he make generally more difficult throws than most QB's ever, but he does it more accurately than many current HoF's.

Ben is 4th all-time in QB win percentage. . .



. . .should I keep going?


Ben is not only one of the elites of today, he's also top 10-20 ALL-TIME. . . don't get butt hurt and diminish his accomplishments because of the offense as a whole. . . . come on, our best WR is a #2 anywhere else in the league, and our already average o-line has been demolished by injuries. . . . . .

pete74
12-22-2010, 05:32 AM
lol @ people who are saying he isn't elite. . . *shakes my head*. . .


Ben not only has more comebacks than "Captain Comeback" Roger Staubach, but he's also on pace to outdo Dan Marino and John Elway.

Assuming Ben gets a mere 3,000 passing yards per season for the next 5 years, which is conservative seeing as that would put him at 33, he'll be top 15 all-time.

Again, assuming Ben plays for 5 more years, if he gets a mere 15 TD's per year, he'll be top 15 all-time.

Ben, age 28, is one of 10 all-time NFL QB's to have 2 Super Bowl rings.

Ben is 10th all-time in QB rating.

Ben is the youngest QB to ever win a Super Bowl.

Ben is not only 6th all-time in yards per attempt, but he's also 13th all-time in completion percentage. . . so not only does he make generally more difficult throws than most QB's ever, but he does it more accurately than many current HoF's.

Ben is 4th all-time in QB win percentage. . .



. . .should I keep going?


Ben is not only one of the elites of today, he's also top 10-20 ALL-TIME. . . don't get butt hurt and diminish his accomplishments because of the offense as a whole. . . . come on, our best WR is a #2 anywhere else in the league, and our already average o-line has been demolished by injuries. . . . . .


if you want to blame the offense as a whole for the bad play recently then you have to blame the offensive as a whole for bens above mentioned accomplishments and not only ben. as for our wr's, how can you say Miller or Wallace is a number 2 anywere else? there both #1 on the patriots or colts. im not saying ben is elite or not because i dont know the defination of elite and most people are just speaking there opinion but he is definatly a good QB who is playing on a good team.

caseyviator
12-22-2010, 09:23 AM
ID LOVE TO KNOW WHAT ALL YOU FICKLE WOMEN ON HERE THINK qualifies an elite qb. is it wins? ben is second behind brady since he has been in the league by a couple hundreths.
is it superbowl wins since he been in the league he has 2 and is in first ...2nd only to brady even has more than farve AND MANNING.

is it 4th quarter comebacks or game winning drives ben is on top of that to.

WHAT IN THE HELL DOES HE HAVE TO DO TO BE ELITE FOR YOU GUYS JEEZE!!

this last game should have been won when they held sanders jersey on 2nd down.
even on the last play the guy in front of the tight end he threw to was gettin raped right inn front of the offical in he endzone and thats holding..i could go on and on

BEN IS TOP 2 IN THE LEAGUE HIM N BRADY!!

caseyviator
12-22-2010, 09:35 AM
ALSO HOW MANY TIMES DO U SEE 2 OR EVEN 3 OF OR RECIEVERS RIGHT ON TOP OF EACH OTHER...IF WE WON WE WOULD NOT BE HAVING THIS THREAD ILL BET.......i could go on n ...and not bein a homer either as some said.

ill give u vick if he keeps doin it!! that is a whole different weapon if he can keep it up ill grant u vick...put ben in bradys spot hed have 5 or 6 superbowls now!! cause the steelers would not have him.

caseyviator
12-22-2010, 09:43 AM
exactly, Ben would probably be just as good or right behind them. I admit Ben isnt as consistently accurate as Brady or Manning but he is no slouch either. What kills Ben is his reluctance to check down and BA to run shorter dink and dunk passes as Brady & manning's offensive coordinators do.

bradshaw was the same way...go deep ill hit u!!!!!!!!!!! balls, toughness and pure power that is ben and terry !!

FanSince72
12-22-2010, 09:59 AM
bradshaw was the same way...go deep ill hit u!!!!!!!!!!! balls, toughness and pure power that is ben and terry !!

Agreed.

And as I wrote in an earlier post, statistically, Ben doesn't add up to much (when compared to Brady, Manning, etc.) but statistics don't win games either - talent does and Ben has the talent to succeed with or without a properly working system (which both Brady and Manning depend on) and to me that is an invaluable ability to have.

Put it this way: with 2:00 to go in a championship game, I'd rather have my money on Ben than anyone else out there because at that point all the stats in the world don't mean beans if you can't get it done when you need to and Ben (in my opinion) is the best right now at "getting it done".

So maybe he will never be mentioned in the same sentence with Brady, Manning or Joe Montana, but when you think about it, neither is Terry Bradshaw. Terry's stats are far below all of those guys but Terry "got it done" when he had to and he has the hardware to prove it. Ben (except for his deep ball) is almost a carbon copy of Bradshaw in almost every way and I'll take that over all the gaudy numbers any day of the week!

caseyviator
12-22-2010, 10:01 AM
He produces period ? What happened Sunday ? Sanchez stinks and he beat our defense. If Sanchez stinks whats that say for Ben. Must stink worse than Sanchez. Ben has had a good run here, but HE is not improving. We barely outscored Buffalo for god sakes. When is he just going to take over a game and just dominate the other teams with a lights out performance like other ELITE QBS do ?? If he doesnt lead this offense to at least a 30 pt win against the Panthers a team that just got its second win, he cant even be considered a average QB this year.

ONE OTHER THING .... Brett Farve first ballot HOFer for sure right ? Is he a ELITE QB THIS YEAR ???? NO FREAKING WAY..... NEITHER IS BEN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


THIS IS FUNNY PATRIOTS HAD TROUBLE WITH BUFFALO AND WERE BEATIN TO DEATH BY COLT MCCOY AND CLEVELAND..THIS IS THE SAME LOGIC, ALL TEAMS N PLAYERS HAVE BAD GAMES BUT THIS WAS A GOOD GAME FOR BEN DONT FORGET THEY GUYS GOTTA CATCH THE BALL, HOLMES WOULD HAVE CAUGHT ONE OF THOSE 2....SO WOULD HAVE WARD, PLUS LAST PLAY OF GAME SANDERS BEIN HELD IN THE ENDZONE AND ON SECOND DOWN SANDERS HELD AS THE BALL WOULD HAVE BEN RIGHT IN HIS HANDS FOR THE WINNING TOD YET NO FLAG FOR VARY OBVIOUS HOLDING COMEON MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LOOK AT MANNING 7 OR 8 INTS IN 2 GAMES...THEY ALL HAVE BAD GAMES BUT BEN HAD A GOOD GAME AND UR BASHIN HIM....ALSO SANCHEZ DOES NOT STINK BY ANY STRECH OF THE IMAGINATION....GET BACK ON THE COUCH SON!!!


THIS IS HOW GREAT BEN IS IF HE LOSES TO CAROLINA AND WINS THE NEXT 4 GAMES BEN WILL BE A FIRST BALLOT HALL O FAMER....HOW MANY GUYS CAN YOU SAY THAT ABOUT???? THINK ABOUT IT!! THAT HAS TO MAKE HIM ELITE DOESNT IT...AND HE HAS PROBABLY 8-10 MORE YEARS TO PLAY....THINK ABOUT IT!!!!!!!??????????????????

caseyviator
12-22-2010, 10:06 AM
Agreed.

And as I wrote in an earlier post, statistically, Ben doesn't add up to much (when compared to Brady, Manning, etc.) but statistics don't win games either - talent does and Ben has the talent to succeed with or without a properly working system (which both Brady and Manning depend on) and to me that is an invaluable ability to have.

Put it this way: with 2:00 to go in a championship game, I'd rather have my money on Ben than anyone else out there because at that point all the stats in the world don't mean beans if you can't get it done when you need to and Ben (in my opinion) is the best right now at "getting it done".

So maybe he will never be mentioned in the same sentence with Brady, Manning or Joe Montana, but when you think about it, neither is Terry Bradshaw. Terry's stats are far below all of those guys but Terry "got it done" when he had to and he has the hardware to prove it. Ben (except for his deep ball) is almost a carbon copy of Bradshaw in almost every way and I'll take that over all the gaudy numbers any day of the week!

I AGREE TERRY GETS IT DONE, THINK IF TERRY PLAYED AT THS TIME WITH THE ADVANTAGE RECIEVERS AND QBS HAVE BECAUSE OF THE RULES HED HAVE THOSE FANTASTIC STATS TOO...BACK THEN IT WAS REALLY SLANTED TWORDS DEFENSE..NOW ITS TOTALLY SLANTED TWORD THE OFFENSE AND SCORING....THINK ABOUT IT THEY STARTED TO CHANGE THE RULES AROUND WHEN MONTANA FIRST STARTED PLAYIN , NONE OF THE GREATS BACK THEN CAN HANG IN THE STATS DEPT WITH THE GUYS THAT PLAY NOWDAYS...............................THINK ABOUT IT!!!

FanSince72
12-22-2010, 10:13 AM
I AGREE TERRY GETS IT DONE, THINK IF TERRY PLAYED AT THS TIME WITH THE ADVANTAGE RECIEVERS AND QBS HAVE BECAUSE OF THE RULES HED HAVE THOSE FANTASTIC STATS TOO...BACK THEN IT WAS REALLY SLANTED TWORDS DEFENSE..NOW ITS TOTALLY SLANTED TWORD THE OFFENSE AND SCORING....THINK ABOUT IT THEY STARTED TO CHANGE THE RULES AROUND WHEN MONTANA FIRST STARTED PLAYIN , NONE OF THE GREATS BACK THEN CAN HANG IN THE STATS DEPT WITH THE GUYS THAT PLAY NOWDAYS...............................THINK ABOUT IT!!!


I won't argue that, but it only really matters if you care about stats, which I don't.

I really couldn't care less about whether a QB is statistically good or bad on certain downs or in certain situations and more importantly, I don't think Ben cares either.

What matters is what a QB does on the next play and that's where Ben shines. I've seen him play some pitiful games as far as consistency goes but in many of those games - when the game is on the line - I've seen him rise to the occasion and take care of business and in the end that's all that matters.

plenewken
12-22-2010, 10:32 AM
You don't have to use uppercase to make a point.

Me, I find Ben's current style of play not exciting a all. Does he dazzle you? He sure doesn't dazzle me. He used to be dazzling early in his career and I loved watching him but unfortunately I've been bored more often than excited watching him play at least for the last 3 years.

You're going to tell me that there are no points for style in football and you're right. This doesn't mean I can't prefer watching a faster and more accurate passer like Brady, Manning and Brees or a greater scrambler out of the pocket, like Vick.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ben gone but watching him struggle in the pocket, getting sacked and taking for ever to find a target is not particularly eye pleasing. It's very laborious to say the least.

I also acknowledge that he mostly does what he's told to do but I don't think Arians has play calls for QB sacks, for ongoing pump fakes and for overthrown or underthrown passes.

You get my drift.

FanSince72
12-22-2010, 10:57 AM
You don't have to use uppercase to make a point.

Me, I find Ben's current style of play not exciting a all. Does he dazzle you? He sure doesn't dazzle me. He used to be dazzling early in his career and I loved watching him but unfortunately I've been bored more often than excited watching him play at least for the last 3 years.

You're going to tell me that there are no points for style in football and you're right. This doesn't mean I can't prefer watching a faster and more accurate passer like Brady, Manning and Brees or a greater scrambler out of the pocket, like Vick.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ben gone but watching him struggle in the pocket, getting sacked and taking for ever to find a target is not particularly eye pleasing. It's very laborious to say the least.

I also acknowledge that he mostly does what he's told to do but I don't think Arians has play calls for QB sacks, for ongoing pump fakes and for overthrown or underthrown passes.

You get my drift.


The last 3 years?

Where exactly were you on the evening of Feb. 1, 2008? Neptune?

That wasn't exciting enough for you?

I mean, I'll spot you last year (even though it wasn't a particularly bad year for Ben), but the last 3?
In 2007 we went to the playoffs and in "08 we got there again and in early '09 (that was LAST YEAR, by the way) we won a Super Bowl and set a League record for winning more of those thingy's than any other team in the history of the Super Bowl era.

Or how 'bout comebacks?

I'm not big on stats but this one IS interesting. From 2004 to yesterday, Ben has led this team on comebacks/game-winning drives in the fourth quarter or overtime, 25 times -14 of which (more than half) have occurred in the last 3 years.

I can understand being concerned about lackluster performance right now because the team as a whole is not exactly burning any houses down. But first of all that's not all Ben's fault and secondly he's operating behind an O-line that sometimes seems as if it could be outplayed by a good high school team, so bear that in mind.

But in an overall sense, I still see "It" in Ben, I just don't think "It" has had as many chances to shine as in the past - but "It" is still there.

caseyviator
12-22-2010, 11:23 AM
You don't have to use uppercase to make a point.

Me, I find Ben's current style of play not exciting a all. Does he dazzle you? He sure doesn't dazzle me. He used to be dazzling early in his career and I loved watching him but unfortunately I've been bored more often than excited watching him play at least for the last 3 years.

You're going to tell me that there are no points for style in football and you're right. This doesn't mean I can't prefer watching a faster and more accurate passer like Brady, Manning and Brees or a greater scrambler out of the pocket, like Vick.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want Ben gone but watching him struggle in the pocket, getting sacked and taking for ever to find a target is not particularly eye pleasing. It's very laborious to say the least.

I also acknowledge that he mostly does what he's told to do but I don't think Arians has play calls for QB sacks, for ongoing pump fakes and for overthrown or underthrown passes.

You get my drift.

what does uppercase letters HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING SUMTIMES MY KEYBOARD STICKS??? i dont get IT

plenewken
12-22-2010, 11:55 AM
The last 3 years?

Where exactly were you on the evening of Feb. 1, 2008? Neptune?

That wasn't exciting enough for you?

I mean, I'll spot you last year (even though it wasn't a particularly bad year for Ben), but the last 3?
In 2007 we went to the playoffs and in "08 we got there again and in early '09 we won a Super Bowl and set a League record for winning more of those thingy's than any other team in the history of the Super Bowl era.

Or how 'bout comebacks?

I'm not big on stats but this one IS interesting. From 2004 to yesterday, Ben has led this team on comebacks/game-winning drives in the fourth quarter or overtime, 25 times -14 of which (more than half) have occurred in the last 3 years.

I can understand being concerned about lackluster performance right now because the team as a whole is not exactly burning any houses down, but first of all that's not all Ben's fault and secondly he's operating behind an O-line that sometimes seems as if it could be outplayed by a good high school team, so bear that in mind.

But in an overall sense, I still see "It" in Ben, I just don't think "It" has had as many chances to shine as in the past - but it's still there.

I'm not talking about numbers I'm talking about style.

Now if you want to talk numbers, let's talk numbers. The season leading to SB 2008, Bend had a QB rating of 80.1 He had 17TD, 15 INT and 45 sacks!! Are you kidding?

Now let's talk about the SB itself. Ben played OK, certainly much better than during the 2005 Superbowl but on a strict QB production, not talking about final score, Warner outplayed Ben. 3TDs 1INT 377yds for Warner vs. 1TD, 1INT and 256 yds for Ben.

These are the numbers.

When Ben is voted MVP in a SB or consistently make the top 5 every year, I'll reconsider my opinion. Until then, I'll only see him as a very good QB and the 2nd best we ever had but nothing else.

plenewken
12-22-2010, 11:59 AM
what does uppercase letters HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING SUMTIMES MY KEYBOARD STICKS??? i dont get IT

Uppercase = yelling :wink02:

FanSince72
12-22-2010, 01:03 PM
I'm not talking about numbers I'm talking about style.

Now if you want to talk numbers, let's talk numbers. The season leading to SB 2008, Bend had a QB rating of 80.1 He had 17TD, 15 INT and 45 sacks!! Are you kidding?

Now let's talk about the SB itself. Ben played OK, certainly much better than during the 2005 Superbowl but on a strict QB production, not talking about final score, Warner outplayed Ben. 3TDs 1INT 377yds for Warner vs. 1TD, 1INT and 256 yds for Ben.

These are the numbers.

When Ben is voted MVP in a SB or consistently make the top 5 every year, I'll reconsider my opinion. Until then, I'll only see him as a very good QB and the 2nd best we ever had but nothing else.

First of all, I couldn't care less about "numbers".

Remember what Mark Twain said:

"There are three great lies: Lies, Damned Lies and Statistics".

I was almost there with you until you got to where you wrote: "...strict QB production, not talking about final score..." I don't mean to be rude but what the hell else is there besides the final score?

Do you think that after that game and watching Rooney being presented the Lombardi Trophy that there was ANY Steeler fan ANYWHERE whining to his buddy about Ben's "production"? Or that Warner had more passing yards?

Who cares?

That's why I don't bother myself with "Stats" because all the stats in the world don't mean a damned thing when you're down by 3 with 2:30 to go in the Championship Game. All that matters at that point is heart and drive and Ben showed me that in spades and I couldn't care less how he stacked up against Kurt Warner or Kurt Cobain for that matter.

He won the Super Bowl - end of story!

kirklandrules
12-22-2010, 01:17 PM
Ben is an elite QB for this simple reason: Manning, Rivers and that guy who won 3 Super Bowls because his coaching staff cheated ... they wouldn't have a winning record if they played for the Steelers. Do you see any of these guys not missing a snap after having their nose smashed sideways? Each one of them stinks under pressure and for the past 3 years our O-line has only been a sieve at best. And the playcalling has been subpar over that timeframe. Out of Ben, Manning, Rivers and Marsha Brady, who gets the least amount of protection from the league/refs? Do you think Patricia Manning would stand in the pocket knowing his O-line sucks and late, illegal hits won't be called. Those girls would tinkle themselves coming out the huddle. We got ourselves a stud QB who has won despite being handicapped by accidents/injuries, a poor O-line, bad play calling and a league that obviously is interested in his failure. Oh and let's throw in a lack of positive press for the guy. If Marsha Brady had a broken foot and decided to play with the injury (which is doubtful), an entire 1 hour segment would be aired each week on ESPN's NFL Primetime. In fact, each of those suck-ups on the show would line up to massage his feet with some fancy smelling oils.

FanSince72
12-22-2010, 01:35 PM
Ben is an elite QB for this simple reason: Manning, Rivers and that guy who won 3 Super Bowls because his coaching staff cheated ... they wouldn't have a winning record if they played for the Steelers. Do you see any of these guys not missing a snap after having their nose smashed sideways? Each one of them stinks under pressure and for the past 3 years our O-line has only been a sieve at best. And the playcalling has been subpar over that timeframe. Out of Ben, Manning, Rivers and Marsha Brady, who gets the least amount of protection from the league/refs? Do you think Patricia Manning would stand in the pocket knowing his O-line sucks and late, illegal hits won't be called. Those girls would tinkle themselves coming out the huddle. We got ourselves a stud QB who has won despite being handicapped by accidents/injuries, a poor O-line, bad play calling and a league that obviously is interested in his failure. Oh and let's throw in a lack of positive press for the guy. If Marsha Brady had a broken foot and decided to play with the injury (which is doubtful), an entire 1 hour segment would be aired each week on ESPN's NFL Primetime. In fact, each of those suck-ups on the show would line up to massage his feet with some fancy smelling oils.

LOL!

Funny stuff! And I agree about the one-hour weekly segment devoted to Brady's foot.

As far as Manning goes, when he had back to back games throwing those pick-sixes, I said to some friends, "Doesn't the NFL have a rule against Manning looking bad like that?"
I thought for sure that Archie would at least be calling for Congressional hearings or something.

But Ben gets squashed and mauled by 600 lbs. worth of linebackers long after the whistle blew or gets his nose broken by a flagrant blow to the face?

All we get is, "Ben who?"



Can't wait 'til Ben gets another Lombardi and starts swingin'it at League officials (off camera, of course).

pete74
12-22-2010, 02:24 PM
all you guys are arguing about ben being the best or not and it really makes no sense. Ben isnt as good of a QB as Manning or Brady and will never have the stats that Rodgers and Rivers will but he finds ways to win. Look at Elway's stats sometime. there not impressive like Brady's or Mannings but he found a way to win when it mattered. Marino had the best stats of his era but he couldnt win the big games. stats do mean alot in the NFL. it shows what kind of player you are but the most important stat that is overlooked more times then not is how these QB'S peform when an important game is on the line.

Ben isnt the best passer, he dosnt have the quickest release and he sure the hell isnt the most accurate but when the big game is on the line he seems to always shine just like Montanna and Elway did.

stiller39
12-22-2010, 02:35 PM
Big Ben is not pretty the way he plays the game... he just wins. Very different style than the pretty boys Manning and Brady. I'll take Ben anyday over both of em. Brady would be in a wheel chair taking the hits BB has absorbed. Never missed a play...that stiller football.

dez09231
12-22-2010, 05:14 PM
if you want to blame the offense as a whole for the bad play recently then you have to blame the offensive as a whole for bens above mentioned accomplishments and not only ben. as for our wr's, how can you say Miller or Wallace is a number 2 anywere else? there both #1 on the patriots or colts. im not saying ben is elite or not because i dont know the defination of elite and most people are just speaking there opinion but he is definatly a good QB who is playing on a good team.



Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne play in in Indy. Wes Welker plays in New England. Mike Wallace wouldn't be the #1 WR in either place, nor would Miller.


When has Ben had a "good" offense around him? 04 with Randle El, Ward, Plax, Faneca and co? You can't sit there and honestly tell me that Chris Kemeoutu has as big of an impact as Ben has. You can't tell me that Limas Sweed was helping his completion percentage. Lol, he's perennially the most important player on offense. He's a HoF QB.

rrage
12-22-2010, 08:46 PM
Big Ben is not pretty the way he plays the game... he just wins. Very different style than the pretty boys Manning and Brady. I'll take Ben anyday over both of em. Brady would be in a wheel chair taking the hits BB has absorbed. Never missed a play...that stiller football.

You said it! if i had to pick BB, Brady or Manning to play in our offensive system this year i'd pick BB 10 out of 10 times.

plenewken
12-23-2010, 09:14 AM
Dallas Clark and Reggie Wayne play in in Indy. Wes Welker plays in New England. Mike Wallace wouldn't be the #1 WR in either place, nor would Miller.


When has Ben had a "good" offense around him? 04 with Randle El, Ward, Plax, Faneca and co? You can't sit there and honestly tell me that Chris Kemeoutu has as big of an impact as Ben has. You can't tell me that Limas Sweed was helping his completion percentage. Lol, he's perennially the most important player on offense. He's a HoF QB.

Ben has had as good receivers and TEs as anyone else since he's been playing. Ward and Holmes were both SB MVP.

Dallas Clark? Injured reserve.

Welker? He's ranked #22 WR this year, Wayne is #3 and Wallace is #6. Wallace has more TDs than Welker and Wayne.

Yeah Sweed dropped too many passes but don't tell me the number of passes he dropped dramatically impacted Ben's percentage. Sweed didn't play in SB XL where Ben could barely complete 1/3 of his attempts. The most accurate and decisive pass in this SB came from Randle El. Sad but true.

You guys crack me up with your excuses for Ben. What's next? You're gonna tell me it's the receiver's fault if he doesn't catch a Hail Mary? LOL

I strongly believe that Manning contributes more to Reggie Wayne's success than Wayne to Manning's . Same for Brady with Welker. Same for Brees with Colston. The way I see it here, Holmes, Ward and Wallace did more for Ben's numbers than Ben for theirs.

Brady, Manning and Brees have been Superbowl MVP, not Ben.

Next season, with a reinforced and healthy OL, I'd like to see Ben finish the season with 30 TDs, 15 INT max and 25 sacks max. We'll see if it happens.

caseyviator
12-23-2010, 09:25 AM
Uppercase = yelling :wink02:

didnt know u could HEAR UPPERCASE LETTERS!!!

GET A LIFE MAN JEEZE

plenewken
12-23-2010, 09:42 AM
didnt know u could HEAR UPPERCASE LETTERS!!!

GET A LIFE MAN JEEZE

You too.

welder4pit
12-23-2010, 05:38 PM
the reason why i say that is b/c we have never been an elite O since ben has been starter. our O has had games, moments, but nothing with any true consistency. brees, rives, manning, and brady all put points. when other teams play those guys, they have that pressure to score points. i was watching our game and i thought sanchez and ben are basically the same b/c both teams are not threaten at all by the other teams O. i'm not bashing ben. i believe he's a good, solid qb but at times, ben is still raw. maybe i'm just expecting more with ben by now.

btw, i could care less about the loss. there are dozen way(s) to lose games but we need to be more productive on the O side. the rules won't allow us to beat a real qb 12-10. it's not happening. If ben was an elite qb . He would have found away to beat the jets at the end of the game. thats what elite qbs do.

lionslicer
12-23-2010, 05:44 PM
Big Ben really is like the better version of John Elway, and people still consider Elway one of the best... (people remember johns come back magic but they often forget all of his losses and all the times he couldn't comeback to win the game)

Ben is not a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, he's always banged up, the ball comes out floppy, he fumbles a lot when he tries to keep the play alive, but thats how he wins games. Ben may have missed 4 games, but how many interceptions has he thrown this year? Why is his QB rating so high? Why are we blaming him for recievers drops? Ben is not a perfect quarterback, he doesn't have the perfect drop back, he has a slow release, but he wins games and takes care of the football, and thats what matters in the end.

MDSteel15
12-23-2010, 06:00 PM
If ben was an elite qb . He would have found away to beat the jets at the end of the game. thats what elite qbs do.

He did! Oh that's right, the TE with excellent hands had it go thru his hands.... TWICE!!!! :banging:

lionslicer
12-23-2010, 06:06 PM
He did! Oh that's right, the TE with excellent hands had it go thru his hands.... TWICE!!!! :banging:

Terrell Owens dropped a lot of touchdown winning catches early in his career, so he sucks too.
Such a perfectionist about a tightend who missed a lot of practice with a concussion, has been pass blocking more this year than ever because of the OL problems then is called on to become a catching tightend in the first time in years since college, where he was still blocked more than he was called on to be a reciever. But I guess that means nothing because he's a steeler and should be the most amazing tightend ever, including catching a pass while almost coliding with a teammate and catch a pass even Jerry Rice would have a hard time bringing down.

FanSince72
12-23-2010, 06:14 PM
Big Ben really is like the better version of John Elway, and people still consider Elway one of the best... (people remember johns come back magic but they often forget all of his losses and all the times he couldn't comeback to win the game)

Ben is not a Peyton Manning or Tom Brady, he's always banged up, the ball comes out floppy, he fumbles a lot when he tries to keep the play alive, but thats how he wins games. Ben may have missed 4 games, but how many interceptions has he thrown this year? Why is his QB rating so high? Why are we blaming him for recievers drops? Ben is not a perfect quarterback, he doesn't have the perfect drop back, he has a slow release, but he wins games and takes care of the football, and thats what matters in the end.

I think you're right on the money!

I think Ben is best compared to Elway in almost all aspects of his game. In fact, in SB XLIII when we were down by 3 and 90 yards away with a little over two minutes to go, I remember thinking about "The Drive" when Elway moved the Broncos 98 yards (?) against Cleveland to win and it was said that when he first entered the huddle, he told his guys, "We've got them right where we want them".

I actually thought that to myself right after we got the holding penalty on the first play of that drive and I still get a chuckle when I think about that.

Ben will likely never match "stats" with guys like Brady and Manning but he sure knows how to serve up some truly memorable performances!

Kanata-Steeler
12-24-2010, 12:39 AM
In the world of QB's today, Ben is like an Abrams tank, with a very potent canon sometimes.
Trouble is, he sometimes moves like a tank, too long in the pocket, hold ball sometimes too long. His accuracy could be improved too,...
But basically, ya I agree, with the Elway-comparison posts here, that is probably the accurate description of Ben.
He is potentially a good->great QB, but not "Elite". we all know he can stink too. :) he can also be a bit of a "drama-queen" -But I think he has grown out of that "Big Ben" syndrome, and into somethin' better !

He is definitely NOT a Brady, or Montana, or Manning...., he's more like an Elway, and Ben is obviously a bruiser, ha can take heavy hits -which also makes him more like a Bradshaw too in other ways.

He is actually the PERFECT QB for the STEELERS. <- (aka a "TEAM" member).
The Steelers would never want an "Elite" QB, I don't think the team, or the fans would want, or even accept the drama of an "elite" QB. It's not their style.

VegasStlrFan
12-24-2010, 12:57 AM
Tonights win changes nothing, he's not elite. He did have the best (pure qb play) I've seen from him with the quick read to Wallace. I give him total props on that play, do that consistently,he'll be elite.

cubanstogie
12-24-2010, 01:03 AM
Tonights win changes nothing, he's not elite. He did have the best (pure qb play) I've seen from him with the quick read to Wallace. I give him total props on that play, do that consistently,he'll be elite.

considering his win loss percentage is third behind the two top QB's ever I would say his record is elite. But some will still say he is a game manager and the Steelers win with D. Can't say that about SB win against Cardinals though. Ben is getting more consistent and throwing a lot less pics, I think if he keeps it up he should be considered elite.

VegasStlrFan
12-24-2010, 01:17 AM
considering his win loss percentage is third behind the two top QB's ever I would say his record is elite. But some will still say he is a game manager and the Steelers win with D. Can't say that about SB win against Cardinals though. Ben is getting more consistent and throwing a lot less pics, I think if he keeps it up he should be considered elite.

Imo, Stats are only a part of the discussion. There is no stat for ben going schoolyard and extending plays, which he is one of the best ever, to offset his sack record that gets attributed to the oline. Stats don't tell the whole story.

Elite qb skills, like quick decisions and accuracy, are lacking in bens game.

OX1947
12-24-2010, 02:27 AM
4 more wins this year, and Big Ben would become a first ballet hall of famer.

dez09231
12-24-2010, 03:27 AM
Ben has had as good receivers and TEs as anyone else since he's been playing. Ward and Holmes were both SB MVP.

Dallas Clark? Injured reserve.

Welker? He's ranked #22 WR this year, Wayne is #3 and Wallace is #6. Wallace has more TDs than Welker and Wayne.

Yeah Sweed dropped too many passes but don't tell me the number of passes he dropped dramatically impacted Ben's percentage. Sweed didn't play in SB XL where Ben could barely complete 1/3 of his attempts. The most accurate and decisive pass in this SB came from Randle El. Sad but true.

You guys crack me up with your excuses for Ben. What's next? You're gonna tell me it's the receiver's fault if he doesn't catch a Hail Mary? LOL

I strongly believe that Manning contributes more to Reggie Wayne's success than Wayne to Manning's . Same for Brady with Welker. Same for Brees with Colston. The way I see it here, Holmes, Ward and Wallace did more for Ben's numbers than Ben for theirs.

Brady, Manning and Brees have been Superbowl MVP, not Ben.

Next season, with a reinforced and healthy OL, I'd like to see Ben finish the season with 30 TDs, 15 INT max and 25 sacks max. We'll see if it happens.


Uhhh yeah. . . you clearly took what I said out of context. Funny how you replied to that post of mine, and not the one that has him top 15 all-time in just about every major statistical category if he plays another few years. Being a contrarian doesn't make you right, it makes you a crybaby or someone bored who's looking for an argument.

Ward = Moss huh? Holmes = Harrison? Lol. . . you have no idea what you're talking about. You're a hater. Ben has had talent, as has almost every QB in the league, but he hasn't had the talent around him that the so called "elite" QB's that you've named had. Sorry kid, but no matter how you slice it, he's done more with less than just about anyone in the league. . . and you comparing him to Manning and Brady is retarded, as no one is arguing that he's Manning or Brady. . . . people are and have been that he's just below them, and that's not a bad thing.

Dexter Jackson and Desmond Howard were Super Bowl MVP's, too. I guess Dexter was better than Rod and Howard was better than Irvin then. Good logic.

You guys can hate him all the way to his HoF speech, I don't care. The bottom line is he's one of the most efficient and accurate QB's of all time who masks holes in a unique way who hasn't had the luxury of some other "elite" QB's, yet wins just as much as them.


Cry, cry, cry.

pete74
12-24-2010, 06:52 AM
Ben is a great Qb but I don't know were you get that he didn't have any talent around him. He started with Ward and Plex then hah Holmes, Wallace and Miller as well ad Mendenhall, Bettis and Parker in his prime when he was tearing it up. How you can sit there and say Ward, Holmes and Wallace are great players are beyond me. Yes Manning and Brady's WR's may get better stats but that's because of who is throwing them the ball and the offensive game plan.

If you put Ward(in his prime), Wallace or Holmes on the Patriots and let Brady toss 12 passes a game to them they will all be top 5 WR's every single year.


Uhhh yeah. . . you clearly took what I said out of context. Funny how you replied to that post of mine, and not the one that has him top 15 all-time in just about every major statistical category if he plays another few years. Being a contrarian doesn't make you right, it makes you a crybaby or someone bored who's looking for an argument.

Ward = Moss huh? Holmes = Harrison? Lol. . . you have no idea what you're talking about. You're a hater. Ben has had talent, as has almost every QB in the league, but he hasn't had the talent around him that the so called "elite" QB's that you've named had. Sorry kid, but no matter how you slice it, he's done more with less than just about anyone in the league. . . and you comparing him to Manning and Brady is retarded, as no one is arguing that he's Manning or Brady. . . . people are and have been that he's just below them, and that's not a bad thing.

Dexter Jackson and Desmond Howard were Super Bowl MVP's, too. I guess Dexter was better than Rod and Howard was better than Irvin then. Good logic.

You guys can hate him all the way to his HoF speech, I don't care. The bottom line is he's one of the most efficient and accurate QB's of all time who masks holes in a unique way who hasn't had the luxury of some other "elite" QB's, yet wins just as much as them.


Cry, cry, cry.

plenewken
12-24-2010, 09:18 AM
Uhhh yeah. . . you clearly took what I said out of context. Funny how you replied to that post of mine, and not the one that has him top 15 all-time in just about every major statistical category if he plays another few years. Being a contrarian doesn't make you right, it makes you a crybaby or someone bored who's looking for an argument.

Ward = Moss huh? Holmes = Harrison? Lol. . . you have no idea what you're talking about. You're a hater. Ben has had talent, as has almost every QB in the league, but he hasn't had the talent around him that the so called "elite" QB's that you've named had. Sorry kid, but no matter how you slice it, he's done more with less than just about anyone in the league. . . and you comparing him to Manning and Brady is retarded, as no one is arguing that he's Manning or Brady. . . . people are and have been that he's just below them, and that's not a bad thing.

Dexter Jackson and Desmond Howard were Super Bowl MVP's, too. I guess Dexter was better than Rod and Howard was better than Irvin then. Good logic.

You guys can hate him all the way to his HoF speech, I don't care. The bottom line is he's one of the most efficient and accurate QB's of all time who masks holes in a unique way who hasn't had the luxury of some other "elite" QB's, yet wins just as much as them.


Cry, cry, cry.

Nobody's crying here dude, we're all big boys.
YOU mentioned Welker and Wayne, not me. After I proved you wrong, you come back with Moss and Harrison.
Ben has had very good talent around him since day 1. Ben also has had more defensive talent around him than Brady and Manning ever had, and he can thank the D for a big part of his win % and at least 1 of his SB rings.
You can slice it anyway you want, there hasn't been a single year since Ben plays that the offense has ranked higher than the defense. It's not completely his fault but he's not completely innocent either.
Ben's one of the most accurate QBs of all time?!? Are you serious?
Oh and thanks for "kid". My grand kids will love it.

By the way, you said it yourself, Ben's below Brady and Manning so it means that if they're all elite, Ben's Tier 2 and they're Tier 1 That's my opinion too.

Happy holidays.

dez09231
12-24-2010, 06:54 PM
Nobody's crying here dude, we're all big boys.
YOU mentioned Welker and Wayne, not me. After I proved you wrong, you come back with Moss and Harrison.
Ben has had very good talent around him since day 1. Ben also has had more defensive talent around him than Brady and Manning ever had, and he can thank the D for a big part of his win % and at least 1 of his SB rings.
You can slice it anyway you want, there hasn't been a single year since Ben plays that the offense has ranked higher than the defense. It's not completely his fault but he's not completely innocent either.
Ben's one of the most accurate QBs of all time?!? Are you serious?
Oh and thanks for "kid". My grand kids will love it.

By the way, you said it yourself, Ben's below Brady and Manning so it means that if they're all elite, Ben's Tier 2 and they're Tier 1 That's my opinion too.

Happy holidays.

Welker is better than Mike. So is Wayne.



"Roethlisberger has been one of the most efficient passers in NFL history. He currently ranks 10th all-time in NFL passer rating (92.1), 6th in yards per attempt (8.00), and 12th in completion percentage (63.03%) among quarterbacks with a minimum of 1500 career attempts. He has the 4th highest career winning percentage (.701) as a starter in the regular season among quarterbacks with a minimum of 90 starts."


Yes. . . he is one of the most accurate QB's of ALL TIME.


If we had Tom Brady you older people would still be talking about how he'll never be Bradshaw. : /