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View Full Version : Racial diversity in the NHL and other sports (moved posts)


SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 01:40 AM
Damn $100,000? Looks like the NHL has some bucks to fly around so why does their marketing team suck?

They need to drop some serious cash in that department and start to get the game on people's radar.

People didn't like me saying it but I think it would be a more popular game if it had diversity. Possibly not though because soccer is diverse and people just don't like it.

I think it would be interesting to watch Rodriguez over to Miller over to Jones...score rather than all these Eastern European names that blend...yawn.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 09:34 AM
To have mass appeal a game needs to be one that many fans have played in some form (most guys have played some version of baseball, basketball and football at some point in their lives) - the need for a rink eliminates that possibility for hockey and limits the appeal of the sport more than the absence of non-white players.

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That's a good point. I think you are on the money with that. I still think some diversity might bring some excitement and make it more entertaining to watch. Look at what Tiger did for golf. I don't think it was just because he was an awesome player but I think being different than stuffy rich white country club guys made it fun because even when he was really good you sort of saw him as an underdog and it is fun to root for the underdog. If he was some rich white kid who was just really good, he would have had an impact but not the same impact. Before Tiger, most just thought Golf was boring.

Heck, if they could muster up ONE diverse team, (and they were good) that might do the trick. They don't need the whole league. It would be fun to watch.

Same goes for NASCAR by the way. Instead of one Southern white guy vs another Southern white guy, if there were some drivers from Cali, Chicago, some blacks, Hispanics, Asians, women, it would be more fun to watch. JMO Maybe if they had one driver from each state and you could enjoy rooting for your state and they could do some marketing letting you know your guy so you care to root for him that might be fun.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 09:45 AM
That's a good point. I think you are on the money with that. I still think some diversity might bring some excitement and make it more entertaining to watch. Look at what Tiger did for golf. I don't think it was just because he was an awesome player but I think being different than stuffy rich white country club guys made it fun because even when he was really good you sort of saw him as an underdog and it is fun to root for the underdog. If he was some rich white kid who was just really good, he would have had an impact but not the same impact. Before Tiger, most just thought Golf was boring.

Heck, if they could muster up ONE diverse team, (and they were good) that might do the trick. They don't need the whole league. It would be fun to watch.

What do you mean by diverse? Isn't having Canadians, Americans, Swedes, Russians, etc. etc. all playing on the same team diverse?

IMO, football, basketball and baseball are far less diverse than hockey will ever be. At least the American leagues. Except for baseball, they are heavily flooded with black Americans. And no, that is not a racist statement, or a slight against black men, but rather an honest statement.

Soccer is probably the most diverse sport (racially and nationality wise at least). It's also the most popular sport in the world. Pretty much only Americans don't care much for soccer...so that kind of throws the "diversity" argument out the window lol.

pete74
01-07-2011, 09:50 AM
What do you mean by diverse? Isn't having Canadians, Americans, Swedes, Russians, etc. etc. all playing on the same team diverse?

IMO, football, basketball and baseball are far less diverse than hockey will ever be. At least the American leagues. Except for baseball, they are heavily flooded with black Americans. And no, that is not a racist statement, or a slight against black men, but rather an honest statement.

Soccer is probably the most diverse sport (racially and nationality wise at least). It's also the most popular sport in the world. Pretty much only Americans don't care much for soccer...so that kind of throws the "diversity" argument out the window lol.

agreed

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 10:02 AM
What do you mean by diverse? Isn't having Canadians, Americans, Swedes, Russians, etc. etc. all playing on the same team diverse?

IMO, football, basketball and baseball are far less diverse than hockey will ever be. At least the American leagues. Except for baseball, they are heavily flooded with black Americans. And no, that is not a racist statement, or a slight against black men, but rather an honest statement.

Soccer is probably the most diverse sport (racially and nationality wise at least). It's also the most popular sport in the world. Pretty much only Americans don't care much for soccer...so that kind of throws the "diversity" argument out the window lol.

I mentioned soccer in my initial post.

No...I don't think hockey is diverse...sorry....or at least not in any interesting way. For any topic we can choose to focus on something to make it seem diverse (like eye color, socioeconomic background, favorite colors) but it won't do the trick for everyone.

Football is still pretty diverse to me. Even if a lot of the fast players are not diverse, because of quarterback, coaching, other player positions, it still feels like a mix. Baseball is diverse. It is true that NBA basketball is not very diverse. I think the reason they survive is marketing. If you can make a player a star and make it so the fans feel differently about that player, you MAY be able to pull it off. Really I find NBA boring except the final quarter of each game and the playoffs.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 10:05 AM
agreed

LOL. It is the kind of people that think Hockey is super diverse and more than any other sport that enjoy it. lol More power to them.:sofunny:

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 10:17 AM
I mentioned soccer in my initial post.

No...I don't think hockey is diverse...sorry....or at least not in any interesting way. For any topic we can choose to focus on something to make it seem diverse (like eye color, socioeconomic background, favorite colors) but it won't do the trick for everyone.

Football is still pretty diverse to me. Even if a lot of the fast players are not diverse, because of quarterback, coaching, other player positions, it still feels like a mix. Baseball is diverse. It is true that NBA basketball is not very diverse. I think the reason they survive is marketing. If you can make a player a star and make it so the fans feel differently about that player, you MAY be able to pull it off. Really I find NBA boring except the final quarter of each game and the playoffs.

I know you mentioned soccer (and did say it was diverse). You also said it wasn't very popular, which is false. It's just not popular with Americans. It's actually the most popular sport in the world.

If you don't like hockey, that's fine. Everybody has their own tastes...I just don't get the "not diverse enough" statement. You mentioned Tiger bringing diversity (and I can only assume you meant racial diversity) to golf, thus making it more exciting, when making a comparison to how you'd like to see hockey be diverse (when it's already extremely ethnicly diverse). Then you bring up player positions...just not sure where you're going with the diversity statement is all.

To me, hockey has always been the most exciting game. It's extremely fast paced, allows for different players personalities to shine. It can be a tough, gritty, muck it out kind of game...and also an eloquent game (when it comes to scoring a pretty goal, or making a beautiful save). I just never understood how people thought a sport that allows players to beat on each other, score amazing goals and make pretty saves (all without a tv timeout every 2 minutes) was boring. I like football a lot, but it just doesn't have the same kind of game speed or intensity. Constant time outs and stoppages of play slow the game down way too much. That's why there aren't many people outside of the US that like American football. Baseball just puts me straight to sleep.

Now, if you don't like the sport, you don't like it and nothing I say will make you feel any differently about it. That's all fine and good. I just think it's weird that you would say the sport is not popular (or not as popular in America as football) because of a lack of diversity. Just don't get what that is supposed to mean.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 10:39 AM
I know you mentioned soccer (and did say it was diverse). You also said it wasn't very popular, which is false. It's just not popular with Americans. It's actually the most popular sport in the world.

If you don't like hockey, that's fine. Everybody has their own tastes...I just don't get the "not diverse enough" statement. You mentioned Tiger bringing diversity (and I can only assume you meant racial diversity) to golf, thus making it more exciting, when making a comparison to how you'd like to see hockey be diverse (when it's already extremely ethnicly diverse). Then you bring up player positions...just not sure where you're going with the diversity statement is all.

To me, hockey has always been the most exciting game. It's extremely fast paced, allows for different players personalities to shine. It can be a tough, gritty, muck it out kind of game...and also an eloquent game (when it comes to scoring a pretty goal, or making a beautiful save).

Now, if you don't like the sport, you don't like it and nothing I say will make you feel any differently about it. That's all fine and good. I just think it's weird that you would say the sport is not popular (or not as popular in America as football) because of a lack of diversity. Just don't get what that is supposed to mean.

First, I'm educated enough to know that football (soccer) is the most popular sport in the world. Rather than saying I made a false statement, you should have deduced (in context) that I was talking about here in the US. And I did point it out as a counter argument to my point.

Now...as far as your hockey diverse comments, that's like me saying the NBA is the most diverse. They have players from Phily, DC, Miami, Compton, NY. That's the way I see your comment. And BTW, NBA does have a bunch of Europeans. but i don't think it is very diverse in reality...just like i don't think hockey is.

As far as hockey, I mentioned what would make it interesting to me. There will be some others that agree with me and some others that don't. If there are some that agree with me than it would increase the viewership so long as it doesn't make some of you already lovers leave for whatever reason.

I tried to like hockey. I started as a Bruins fan and just stayed loyal and then after several years I became bored with the sport. Just because you are spoiled to have had Lemieux and now Crosby, don't think it is interesting for all teams. lol

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 10:50 AM
Now, if you don't like the sport, you don't like it and nothing I say will make you feel any differently about it. That's all fine and good. I just think it's weird that you would say the sport is not popular (or not as popular in America as football) because of a lack of diversity. Just don't get what that is supposed to mean.

Sorry...I forgot to address this point. So I'm guessing that if hockey and Nascar were more diverse they MAY gain more appeal/ interest. The truth is we don't know. It could go that way like what Tiger did for golf or it could go the route of diversity in soccer with still nobody (in the US) caring.

Stu Pidasso
01-07-2011, 11:15 AM
I just never understood how people thought a sport that allows players to beat on each other, score amazing goals and make pretty saves (all without a tv timeout every 2 minutes) was boring. I like football a lot, but it just doesn't have the same kind of game speed or intensity. Constant time outs and stoppages of play slow the game down way too much. That's why there aren't many people outside of the US that like American football.

I have a good theory about that: Football is a social game. With other sports (like hockey, soccer, etc.) you have the fast paced, constant game that you continually have to watch (and not make a sammich, pee, or look away for a second) so it doesn't fit into the American "social" paradigm. Unless you watch your sports alone.

Now Football, you have time in between plays to talk to your friends, pee, hang out, and be social with each other, especially in public gatherings like bars.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 11:17 AM
First, I'm educated enough to know that football (soccer) is the most popular sport in the world. Rather than saying I made a false statement, you should have deduced (in context) that I was talking about here in the US. And I did point it out as a counter argument to my point.

The US sports market is very small compared to the rest of the world sports. American football has gained popularity in recent years, but it can't hold a candle to soccer, cricket, rugby...sports that most Americans could care less about, but the rest of the world enjoys thoroughly. Hockey isn't the most popular sport in the US, but it is more popular worldwide than American football. I could give a hoot though if it ever becomes more popular and than American football though. IMO, football is becoming too watered down.

Now...as far as your hockey diverse comments, that's like me saying the NBA is the most diverse. They have players from Phily, DC, Miami, Compton, NY. That's the way I see your comment. And BTW, NBA does have a bunch of Europeans. but i don't think it is very diverse in reality...just like i don't think hockey is.

So me saying that hockey has a variety of international players (which is actually ethnic diversity) is equivalent to the NBA having players from different cities? I don't get that statement at all.

As far as hockey, I mentioned what would make it interesting to me. There will be some others that agree with me and some others that don't. If there are some that agree with me than it would increase the viewership so long as it doesn't make some of you already lovers leave for whatever reason.

You said diversity would make it more interesting for you. I still don't understand what kind of diversity you are talking about. Are you talking about racial, ethnic, player position...what? If it's racial, well there are some players of different race that play the game...but they are usually American or Canadian. Ethnicly, there's boatloads of players from different ethnic backgrounds. Position...well, you can't really change that without completely changing the game.

I tried to like hockey. I started as a Bruins fan and just stayed loyal and then after several years I became bored with the sport. Just because you are spoiled to have had Lemieux and now Crosby, don't think it is interesting for all teams. lol

I take offense to you thinking I'm spoiled as a hockey fan. I became a fan at an early age (about 5..1985) and yes, Mario was on the team then, but they still stunk (for the most part). And being 5, I didn't really know the difference...it was just exciting to me. And being a fan when Rico Fata was the best player isn't spoiled at all. :chuckle:

And it is interesting to me for all teams. I enjoy watching all games. I love the sport more than I love any one player. I'd be a fan if there were no Lemieux or Crosby. Pittsburgh was just blessed to get two great players in one generation.

Again, if you don't like it, that's fine...but you still haven't quite explained the whole diversity thing.

*Edit* You have inexplicably made me want to go watch a bunch of hockey fights. :chuckle:

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 11:21 AM
I have a good theory about that: Football is a social game. With other sports (like hockey, soccer, etc.) you have the fast paced, constant game that you continually have to watch (and not make a sammich, pee, or look away for a second) so it doesn't fit into the American "social" paradigm. Unless you watch your sports alone.

Now Football, you have time in between plays to talk to your friends, pee, hang out, and be social with each other, especially in public gatherings like bars.

Yeah, I get what you mean. That's more for the casual fan though. I myself get extremely annoyed with constant TV timeouts and the over abundance of play reviews. It slows the game down to a deadening pace...especially at the end of halves.

I'm not a social sports watcher. I want to see the game...and will hold it in until intermissions. :chuckle:

I understand though that the sport is watched by more casual fans than hardcore fans though, so in that respect you may be onto something.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 11:57 AM
The US sports market is very small compared to the rest of the world sports. American football has gained popularity in recent years, but it can't hold a candle to soccer, cricket, rugby...sports that most Americans could care less about, but the rest of the world enjoys thoroughly. Hockey isn't the most popular sport in the US, but it is more popular worldwide than American football. I could give a hoot though if it ever becomes more popular and than American football though. IMO, football is becoming too watered down.



So me saying that hockey has a variety of international players (which is actually ethnic diversity) is equivalent to the NBA having players from different cities? I don't get that statement at all.



You said diversity would make it more interesting for you. I still don't understand what kind of diversity you are talking about. Are you talking about racial, ethnic, player position...what? If it's racial, well there are some players of different race that play the game...but they are usually American or Canadian. Ethnicly, there's boatloads of players from different ethnic backgrounds. Position...well, you can't really change that without completely changing the game.



I take offense to you thinking I'm spoiled as a hockey fan. I became a fan at an early age (about 5..1985) and yes, Mario was on the team then, but they still stunk (for the most part). And being 5, I didn't really know the difference...it was just exciting to me. And being a fan when Rico Fata was the best player isn't spoiled at all. :chuckle:

And it is interesting to me for all teams. I enjoy watching all games. I love the sport more than I love any one player. I'd be a fan if there were no Lemieux or Crosby. Pittsburgh was just blessed to get two great players in one generation.

Again, if you don't like it, that's fine...but you still haven't quite explained the whole diversity thing.

To put it simply, I was talking about the US market and US TV market...simple. I was actually thinking about what could help the NHL...not the sport of hockey worldwide. Sometimes I think things are obvious as far as context of conversation and they are not to some people.(nature of the internet).

One could argue each city/state has its own flavor and that may be diverse for some and not for others. The same way when you watch hockey it screams diversity to you, it doesn't for me. It looks like we are going to agree to disagree on the diversity but I'll say this, sometimes certain cultural differences between one white group and another might come out (cooking, heritage parade, etc) but it is not always evident while watching a hockey match. It would be the same as having 15 different African countries all black all doing basketball and saying it is super diverse. Sure when it comes to customs, cooking, language, etc, it will be very diverse. I guess the answer to your question of what I'm talking about is "visually diverse". So for example, a Hispanic, a Middle Easterner, an (East) Indian might all be considered Caucasian but they may be "visually diverse". I don't want to have to sit down with each and have an interview to go over their backgrounds to appreciate the diversity.

My concept is simple. There is a group of people that already love it and watch. If there is a group of people like me who would find it more interesting if it were diverse then automatically the viewership numbers increase unless people from your group drop out once it becomes more diverse. So the question then becomes how many would find it more interesting if it had more diversity? It's useless to debate among hockey fans. That group has already been filtered. It is the non-fans that should discuss whether they would find it more interesting or not

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 12:11 PM
Yeah, I get what you mean. That's more for the casual fan though. I myself get extremely annoyed with constant TV timeouts and the over abundance of play reviews. It slows the game down to a deadening pace...especially at the end of halves.

I'm not a social sports watcher. I want to see the game...and will hold it in until intermissions. :chuckle:

I understand though that the sport is watched by more casual fans than hardcore fans though, so in that respect you may be onto something.

BTW, one thing that kills soccer for me is the ties. I hate it hate it. i hate wasting my time and ending up with a tie. I love the later single elimination World Cup matches where I know there will be no tie allowed and it will go to penalty kicks if need be.

Hockey was smart to add the shootouts but still...

All the sports that have a million games can cause fans to lose interest. I had decided that baseball would be more exciting if instead of 3 separate meaningless games there were 3 games series where you get an extra point if you win the series. I know they would still need to finish the 3rd game if it goes 2-0 (for money) so it would count but whoever won the 2/3 would get like an extra win...something like that. You could still keep track of regular wins but you could have something called "points" which would be wins + series wins.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 12:32 PM
To put it simply, I was talking about the US market and US TV market...simple. I was actually thinking about what could help the NHL...not the sport of hockey worldwide. Sometimes I think things are obvious as far as context of conversation and they are not to some people.(nature of the internet).

One could argue each city/state has its own flavor and that may be diverse for some and not for others. The same way when you watch hockey it screams diversity to you, it doesn't for me. It looks like we are going to agree to disagree on the diversity but I'll say this, sometimes certain cultural differences between one white group and another might come out (cooking, heritage parade, etc) but it is not always evident while watching a hockey match. It would be the same as having 15 different African countries all black all doing basketball and saying it is super diverse. Sure when it comes to customs, cooking, language, etc, it will be very diverse. I guess the answer to your question of what I'm talking about is "visually diverse". So for example, a Hispanic, a Middle Easterner, an (East) Indian might all be considered Caucasian but they may be "visually diverse". I don't want to have to sit down with each and have an interview to go over their backgrounds to appreciate the diversity.

My concept is simple. There is a group of people that already love it and watch. If there is a group of people like me who would find it more interesting if it were diverse then automatically the viewership numbers increase unless people from your group drop out once it becomes more diverse. So the question then becomes how many would find it more interesting if it had more diversity? It's useless to debate among hockey fans. That group has already been filtered. It is the non-fans that should discuss whether they would find it more interesting or not

You completely lost me on this entire post. I really don't know what most of it has to do with the sport. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject, cause I don't know where you're going with this.

To siphon the conversation back a little to racial diversity...I doubt having an extremely racially diverse hockey league would make much difference to fans and non-fans...seeing as how the NFL and NBA are about as racially diverse as hockey is. I just don't get why racial diversity would make the sport more interesting to some. If the way it is played isn't interesting to you now, it never will be. :noidea:

Stu Pidasso
01-07-2011, 01:53 PM
Yeah, I get what you mean. That's more for the casual fan though. I myself get extremely annoyed with constant TV timeouts and the over abundance of play reviews. It slows the game down to a deadening pace...especially at the end of halves.

I hear you, and I have your salvation. Here's what I do when I watch alone: I start the DVR recording. I wait until 23 minutes after kickoff to start watching the game. skip through the commercials/replays/etc. By halftime, you're caught up. Rinse, repeat for the second half. Your game still ends at the same time, but you don't have commercials. If you're still behind at halftime, just fast forward...

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 04:59 PM
You completely lost me on this entire post. I really don't know what most of it has to do with the sport. So we'll just have to agree to disagree on the subject, cause I don't know where you're going with this.

To siphon the conversation back a little to racial diversity...I doubt having an extremely racially diverse hockey league would make much difference to fans and non-fans...seeing as how the NFL and NBA are about as racially diverse as hockey is. I just don't get why racial diversity would make the sport more interesting to some. If the way it is played isn't interesting to you now, it never will be. :noidea:

You didn't understand the entire post? lol You jumped to the third point so the 2 points you seemed to miss I can summarize each

1. I was talking about the NHL with US audience and not "hockey" worldwide so I wanted to bring us back to what i was talking about.

2. The analogy of 15 different African countries is a perfect analogy because I know you were going to try to go for "Hey, if you talk to them, they will have different European cultures." I answered your question clearly as "visual diversity" so that could include race but it would also include ethnicity where you could tell by looking (3 clear Caucasian examples...Hispanic, Middle-Eastern, East Indian)...not sitting down to do an interview with each and every player to illicit the difference.

So now that you understand "visual diversity" which includes race from there we can just agree to disagree. I think diversity that reflect more of what America is about MIGHT appeal more to some people who are not fans. I still think football is diverse in that for example if you told me to guess the race (for example) of the top 5 players in the next draft, I couldn't tell you. If you told me to guess the race of the person being interviewed post game, I couldn't tell you. Basketball sort of held on to fans because it used to be all white. My guess is if it started just black and stayed that way, it wouldn't be as popular. That's JMO. Football has that same white foundation.

That's fine that we disagree but in the heart of hearts I think you know what I mean by visual diversity...no sit down interviews to prove it. Personally I enjoy seeing inclusive sports where the only loyalty is the color of the uniform. So I would enjoy watching the bonding of different groups (groups that couldn't all drink from the same water fountain in the past) in hockey. My point is simple, even if it is just a small percentage of the non viewers, the number still goes up (so long as there are no current viewers who drop out). The only question is whether it would be like a Tiger effect or not. maybe one day we will find out.

I feel the same way about Nascar.

There will always be people who enjoy inclusiveness more and those who don't care for it (or even are offended by it) so people will be different. It's not worth arguing over.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 05:09 PM
You completely lost :

BTW. When I was looking at Emmanuel Sanders website early in the year, it felt like the American ideal we are going for with people of all different backgrounds and even some from Mexico rooting him on and it was just something special to watch race be no issue and the only color was black and gold. It just felt very American. I like that.

At the same time...there will be others who don't care for that.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 05:31 PM
You didn't understand the entire post? lol You jumped to the third point so the 2 points you seemed to miss I can summarize each

1. I was talking about the NHL with US audience and not "hockey" worldwide so I wanted to bring us back to what i was talking about.

2. The analogy of 15 different African countries is a perfect analogy because I know you were going to try to go for "Hey, if you talk to them, they will have different European cultures." I answered your question clearly as "visual diversity" so that could include race but it would also include ethnicity where you could tell by looking (3 clear Caucasian examples...Hispanic, Middle-Eastern, East Indian)...not sitting down to do an interview with each and every player to illicit the difference.

So now that you understand "visual diversity" which includes race from there we can just agree to disagree. I think diversity that reflect more of what America is about MIGHT appeal more to some people who are not fans. I still think football is diverse in that for example if you told me to guess the race (for example) of the top 5 players in the next draft, I couldn't tell you. If you told me to guess the race of the person being interviewed post game, I couldn't tell you. Basketball sort of held on to fans because it used to be all white. My guess is if it started just black and stayed that way, it wouldn't be as popular. That's JMO. Football has that same white foundation.

That's fine that we disagree but in the heart of hearts I think you know what I mean by visual diversity...no sit down interviews to prove it. Personally I enjoy seeing inclusive sports where the only loyalty is the color of the uniform. So I would enjoy watching the bonding of different groups (groups that couldn't all drink from the same water fountain in the past) in hockey. My point is simple, even if it is just a small percentage of the non viewers, the number still goes up (so long as there are no current viewers who drop out). The only question is whether it would be like a Tiger effect or not. maybe one day we will find out.

I feel the same way about Nascar.

There will always be people who enjoy inclusiveness more and those who don't care for it (or even are offended by it) so people will be different. It's not worth arguing over.

I'm sorry, but all this talk of "visual diversity" and finding out a persons culture through interview talk is just pointless to me. You do know that not just Caucasians play the sport right? So saying that one mixed race guy changing a predominantly white sport might have the same effect in hockey means absolutely nothing to anyone who is a fan (because, from watching more games than just the team you root for, you get a bigger picture of who is in the league).

Here's a little snippet of an article shedding some light on the racial diversity in hockey.

When Anson Carter was ten years old, his life was much the same as most of the other boys growing up in his Scarborough, Ontario, neighborhood. He went to school, came home, and played hockey. As he continued to play, advancing rapidly through his local leagues and on to Michigan State University, he began to stand out for two reasons. One, he was almost always the best player on the ice, and two, he was black—a rarity in hockey.

Carter was the second-leading scorer for the Boston Bruins in 1999–2000, was traded to the Edmonton Oilers in 2000, to the New York Rangers in 2002, and went to the Vancouver Canucks in 2005. He was one of 17 black athletes in the NHL in 2004. It's a number that may seem low (given the 600+ players in the NHL today) but it still represents a noticeable increase in what has always been thought of as a "white" sport.

According to league reports, only 18 black players reached the NHL between 1958 and 1991. While racism certainly played some role in keeping the figure to a minimum, it may have been more a function of the demographic makeup of Canada. In 1971, Canadians made up over 95% of the NHL, and only .02% of all Canadians were black. Today, the black population in Canada has increased to 2%. In addition, the United States, with a much higher black population than Canada, now contributes approximately 15% of all NHL players while Canada produces just over 60%

Read more: African American Hockey Players in the NHL: History & List of Players — Infoplease.com http://www.infoplease.com/spot/bhmhockey1.html#ixzz1AOVnaN8s

As of right now (not including the ethnic players...just strictly African descent or mixed decent) there are 25 bi-racial or black players in the NHL, 11 of Asian descent, 4 Latin American, 5 of Middle Eastern descent...and all with notable players. (Examples: Justin Abdelkader who is American in nationality, but has Jordanian and Polish parents. Scott Gomez and Raffi Torres...both of Mexican and Latin American descent. Billy Guerin was also of Latin American descent. Devin Setoguchi, Manny Malholtra and Paul Kariya are all Canadian, but of direct Asian descent. Dustin Byfuglien, Evander Kane, Jarome Iginla...all famous black/bi-racial players).

*p.s.* I'm intrigued by our discussion, and want to continue it...but am going to create a different thread in a more appropriate section.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 07:59 PM
I'm sorry, but all this talk of "visual diversity" and finding out a persons culture through interview talk is just pointless to me. You do know that not just Caucasians play the sport right? So saying that one mixed race guy changing a predominantly white sport might have the same effect in hockey means absolutely nothing to anyone who is a fan (because, from watching more games than just the team you root for, you get a bigger picture of who is in the league).

Here's a little snippet of an article shedding some light on the racial diversity in hockey.



As of right now (not including the ethnic players...just strictly African descent or mixed decent) there are 25 bi-racial or black players in the NHL, 11 of Asian descent, 4 Latin American, 5 of Middle Eastern descent...and all with notable players. (Examples: Justin Abdelkader who is American in nationality, but has Jordanian and Polish parents. Scott Gomez and Raffi Torres...both of Mexican and Latin American descent. Billy Guerin was also of Latin American descent. Devin Setoguchi, Manny Malholtra and Paul Kariya are all Canadian, but of direct Asian descent. Dustin Byfuglien, Evander Kane, Jarome Iginla...all famous black/bi-racial players).

*p.s.* I'm intrigued by our discussion, and want to continue it...but am going to create a different thread in a more appropriate section.

I guess you are right. The sport is dead for good then. lol. I didn't realize it already had some diversity and still got no appeal. All I know know is from the highlights (that ESPN forces on you by squeezing them between the sports people care about) so those diverse players must not be very good since I don't see them. That makes a difference. If Tiger had sucked, he would have made no difference to the sport.

It was just a theory but I'll concede but it is still possible that if those players are actually good it might make a difference.

By the way, my "visual diversity" was not a trick. I was just trying to avoid that kind of thing you get when people play dumb and try to act like they don't know what you are talking about like "Hey are you saying all white people are alike?" or "Are you saying all black people are alike?". I wanted to include different ethnicities (not just race) but not play games with "Hey Russia has a different culture and ethnicity than Yugoslovia..."

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 08:04 PM
I would remember if I heard something like "Scott Gomez" scoring a goal. What does he do if he is so good play defense?

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 08:10 PM
Same with Nascar. I thought Danica was going to make Indy racing exciting until I saw she sucked. If she had been good, that might have brought popularity. Yeah she's pretty but you have to win to impress.

lionslicer
01-07-2011, 08:12 PM
There was a black guy who played in the NHL like 7 years ago or something.. But I think he was France.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 08:15 PM
No wonder I missed this guy. With a helmet, who would know SC? lol I don't know who he is but I typed up blacks in hockey and he came up. lol

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jarome-212x300.jpg

lionslicer
01-07-2011, 08:45 PM
No wonder I missed this guy. With a helmet, who would know SC? lol I don't know who he is but I typed up blacks in hockey and he came up. lol

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jarome-212x300.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ice_hockey_players_of_black_African_descen t

Hockey players of african descent.

First guy on the list is very dark, but most of the are bi-racial, or part black, or just don't look dark at all

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 09:08 PM
No wonder I missed this guy. With a helmet, who would know SC? lol I don't know who he is but I typed up blacks in hockey and he came up. lol

http://blacksportsonline.com/home/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/jarome-212x300.jpg

*Sigh*

You claim that you "tried" to be a hockey fan (I don't know how recent this was either, and I'm guessing you only gave it a half assed try), and then act like some of these guys are nobody's cause you never heard of them. If you really gave a hoot about the diversity of the sport you'd look it up yourself and find out how talented/famous these guys are.

That is Jarome Iginla...the first black captain in hockey (for the Calgary Flames) and is quite popular. Aside from being a 5 time NHL All Star, he's also the teams all-time leader in goals, points, and games played. He's also helped Canada win 2 Olympic gold medals ('02 & '10).

You know that goal Crosby scored in OT to win Canada the gold over the US? Yeah...that play was set up by a sweet pass from Iginla.

L0tnKCHp6C0

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 09:09 PM
There was a black guy who played in the NHL like 7 years ago or something.. But I think he was France.

There are a bunch that play in the league right now (25 to be exact). Not all of them are French-Canadian either. Are you maybe thinking of Claude Lemieux or Georges Laraque?

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 09:11 PM
I would remember if I heard something like "Scott Gomez" scoring a goal. What does he do if he is so good play defense?

He's a center for the Montreal Canadiens.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 09:15 PM
I guess you are right. The sport is dead for good then. lol. I didn't realize it already had some diversity and still got no appeal. All I know know is from the highlights (that ESPN forces on you by squeezing them between the sports people care about) so those diverse players must not be very good since I don't see them. That makes a difference. If Tiger had sucked, he would have made no difference to the sport.

Dead for good? :sofunny: Why? Because it's not the most popular sport in the US??? That's not that big of a deal lol...especially when most of the world considers American football a waste of time. Hockey is more well liked worldwide that football is...I don't think it matters that is surpasses it in the US, especially when the majority of teams have no problem filling the seats and getting viewers. Besides, if people want hockey news they can just watch VS. or NHL Network.

It was just a theory but I'll concede but it is still possible that if those players are actually good it might make a difference.

If you actually payed attention to the sport (more than just a casual fan would), you'd know they are good players.

By the way, my "visual diversity" was not a trick. I was just trying to avoid that kind of thing you get when people play dumb and try to act like they don't know what you are talking about like "Hey are you saying all white people are alike?" or "Are you saying all black people are alike?". I wanted to include different ethnicities (not just race) but not play games with "Hey Russia has a different culture and ethnicity than Yugoslovia..."

I still don't get what any of this has to do with the conversation...but ok. :chuckle:

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 09:50 PM
If you actually payed attention to the sport (more than just a casual fan would), you'd know they are good players.



There goes my "good" argument. lol I was going to say I'm sure there were many black females in Tennis before the Williams sisters but if they suck, no effect...lol

OK...I'll be bold and make this statement. If they could somehow get African Americans interested in hockey, it would boost the sport's popularity and revenue. African Americans are a small part of the country (13%) but just the interest might make a lot of others interested. Maybe there would be more songs, videos, commercials, etc. Now whites that didn't watch, Hispanics and other cultures want to know what is so fascinating and the national media wants to broadcast more primetime games because it seems all Americans are into it and advertisers want to reach all. That's my hunch.

I spent part of my childhood in Rhode Island and when I was a kid I went to some Providence Bruis games (people get seriously into it...no joke). Because of this minor league team (even beyond just being in NE) everyone in the area were Boston Bruins fans and I became a Bruins fan. I tried to like them until sometime in the late 90s when I just became bored with the sport all together. In reality, I didn't put in a good effort because the Bruins kept sucking but I did remain loyal.

Thanks for educating me a bit on the sport. next time they get someone who is noticeably black, latino or asiain, who is a superstar, let's see if the buzz catches on. They would have to market him though.

SteelKnight
01-07-2011, 09:59 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ice_hockey_players_of_black_African_descen t

Hockey players of african descent.

First guy on the list is very dark, but most of the are bi-racial, or part black, or just don't look dark at all

Did you notice that when you look at the past and current, almost all of them are Canadian? Maybe that's why there hasn't been a lot of buzz.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 10:05 PM
There goes my "good" argument. lol I was going to say I'm sure there were many black females in Tennis before the Williams sisters but if they suck, no effect...lol

OK...I'll be bold and make this statement. If they could somehow get African Americans interested in hockey, it would boost the sport's popularity and revenue. African Americans are a small part of the country (13%) but just the interest might make a lot of others interested. Maybe there would be more songs, videos, commercials, etc. Now whites that didn't watch, Hispanics and other cultures want to know what is so fascinating and the national media wants to broadcast more primetime games because it seems all Americans are into it and advertisers want to reach all. That's my hunch.

I spent part of my childhood in Rhode Island and when I was a kid I went to some Providence Bruis games (people get seriously into it...no joke). Because of this minor league team (even beyond just being in NE) everyone in the area were Boston Bruins fans and I became a Bruins fan. I tried to like them until sometime in the late 90s when I just became bored with the sport all together. In reality, I didn't put in a good effort because the Bruins kept sucking but I did remain loyal.

Thanks for educating me a bit on the sport. next time they get someone who is noticeably black, latino or asiain, who is a superstar, let's see if the buzz catches on. They would have to market him though.

Honestly...not that I don't want people to enjoy the sport, but IMO it's already commercialized and hyped up enough in the states. IMO, the more "sensationalized" a sport becomes in the US, the more watered down it gets. Look at all the people bitching about Goodell and the NFL and how he's ruining the sport to make an extra buck. Bettman (hockey commissioner) is bad enough (Canadians and die hard US hockey fans LOATHE him, like NFL fans loathe Goodell), and many feel the sport is over-hyped as it is (especially with Crosby and Ovechkin...they hate that these guys get the media spotlight while other stars, Iginla included, are pushed into the background. Much how NFL fans feel about Brady/Manning/Favre).

It's just never going to be as popular as the NFL, NBA or MLB. Pretty much all fans are all right with that. In fact, most could care less.

They have programs (in Canada and the US) for inner city and under-privileged kids. The main one I can think of off hand is having people donate their used equipment to give them (because the shit is really, really expensive) to get more kids interested...but that will only go so far, you know?

I honestly think it's just more of a cultural thing. And that's fine. The sport should just be enjoyed for what it is and shouldn't have to use forced diversity to sell itself. I'm glad they're doing something to try to get kids who otherwise wouldn't be able to afford to get into the sport, into it...but like I said, I don't see it making that big of an impact.

SteelCityMom
01-07-2011, 10:09 PM
Did you notice that when you look at the past and current, almost all of them are Canadian? Maybe that's why there hasn't been a lot of buzz.

Oh definitely...and going back to the article I posted, it stated that in the 70's, 95% of the players in the NHL were Canadian, and Canada's population at that time was only .02% black. That had A LOT to do with it at the time. Heck, European players didn't really enter the league until the 80's and 90's.

Simple truth is, for the most part, the countries these players are coming from (outside of the US) have insignificant black populations. Their numbers have increased in the sport, and I imagine will continue to increase...but it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that it took so long.

MasterOfPuppets
01-07-2011, 10:43 PM
Same goes for NASCAR by the way. Instead of one Southern white guy vs another Southern white guy, if there were some drivers from Cali, Chicago, some blacks, Hispanics, Asians, women, it would be more fun to watch. JMO Maybe if they had one driver from each state and you could enjoy rooting for your state and they could do some marketing letting you know your guy so you care to root for him that might be fun.
you really should do your research before you go spouting off nonsense. there's more drivers in nascar that aren't from southern states than there are... infact , the state of california has the MOST representatives in nascar.
there are drivers from..
michigan
Washington
California ( 6 drivers )
Tasmania
Indiana ( 2 drivers )
Wisconsin ( 2 drivers )
Nevada ( 2 drivers )
Connecticut
Kansas
Colombia
Arizona
Texas
New Jersey
New York
as for the minorities, have you ever heard of juan pablo montoya ? or danicka patrick ?

tony hipchest
01-07-2011, 11:07 PM
im gradually coming to the conclusion that sometimes steelknight is SO far off the mark, yet SO full of his own opinion, he isnt even worth responding to.

about 20 opinions in this thread take the cake. :doh:

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 02:37 AM
you really should do your research before you go spouting off nonsense. there's more drivers in nascar that aren't from southern states than there are... infact , the state of california has the MOST representatives in nascar.
there are drivers from..
michigan
Washington
California ( 6 drivers )
Tasmania
Indiana ( 2 drivers )
Wisconsin ( 2 drivers )
Nevada ( 2 drivers )
Connecticut
Kansas
Colombia
Arizona
Texas
New Jersey
New York
as for the minorities, have you ever heard of juan pablo montoya ? or danicka patrick ?

I go by what I see. Those drivers must suck. They are probably the drivers at the back. All the good ones are Southern. I don't have time to scan the car that came in 43rd. I have heard of Montoya and when he won it did add some excitement. Danica is Danica...lots of buzz but it will only be truly exciting if she can win. I'd love it if she could develop a pattern of winning. People like rooting for an underdog.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 02:38 AM
im gradually coming to the conclusion that sometimes steelknight is SO far off the mark, yet SO full of his own opinion, he isnt even worth responding to.



Victory!!!:tt04:

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 03:14 AM
Oh definitely...and going back to the article I posted, it stated that in the 70's, 95% of the players in the NHL were Canadian, and Canada's population at that time was only .02% black. That had A LOT to do with it at the time. Heck, European players didn't really enter the league until the 80's and 90's.


One thing is the NHL does a horrible job marketing its players...horrible. They don't give you any touching stories, underdog stories, outlandish fun characters (I'm sure there are plenty but they don't market them well). Crosby is certainly an exception.

They need to find a way to make you care more about one player than another. I hate to say it but taking advantage of some of those fights and rivalries might be a smart move. Let the public know the juice behind the beef. Maybe a little trash talking would be good ...lol I'm not saying turn it into WWE but inject life.

You are right that they do get people going (I guess...on highlights it always looks packed) but I guess their problem is in getting interest in TV viewers which would mean sponsors and big money. I think paying some celebrities to be into it and some music artists to be into it and make songs (e.g Kanye West).

Ultimately, though, they have to create more stars that people really can recognize and care about. Every team should have at least 3 and they need to get out into their cities and market themselves and the NHL needs to market them too. So if nothing else the general public should know who the 3 famous and talented players are on their local teams.

MasterOfPuppets
01-08-2011, 03:20 AM
I go by what I see. Those drivers must suck. They are probably the drivers at the back. All the good ones are Southern. I don't have time to scan the car that came in 43rd. I have heard of Montoya and when he won it did add some excitement. Danica is Danica...lots of buzz but it will only be truly exciting if she can win. I'd love it if she could develop a pattern of winning. People like rooting for an underdog.
and yet once again , you show you know nothing about the subject.... the last 5 championships have been won by jimmy johnson who happens to be from CALIFORNIA. to further illustrate your nascar ignorance ... a driver from a southern state has only won one championship since dale earnhardt won it in 1994.
california drivers - 9 championships
texas drivers - 2
indiana drivers - 2
nevada drivers - 1
wisconson drivers - 1


there's an old saying , it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think your an idiot , than to open your mouth and remove all doubt ...:wink02:

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 03:21 AM
Oh definitely...

Hey I just looked and the Bruins are in first place in their division. We just sucked for so long that I'm surprised. Who's really good on the Bruins? Do we have anyone scary good or is it more of a balanced team?

Hey...only 4/24 players on the Bruins are American. Maybe before we start talking about visual diversity we need to get some Americans in the first place. lol It is an American league.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 03:43 AM
and yet once again , you show you know nothing about the subject.... the last 5 championships have been won by jimmy johnson who happens to be from CALIFORNIA. to further illustrate your nascar ignorance ... a driver from a southern state has only won one championship since dale earnhardt won it in 1994.
california drivers - 9 championships
texas drivers - 2
indiana drivers - 2
nevada drivers - 1
wisconson drivers - 1


there's an old saying , it's better to keep your mouth shut and let people think your an idiot , than to open your mouth and remove all doubt ...:wink02:

blaberty blab puppet. I did think Jimmy Johnson was from the South but I am ignorant about NASCAR no doubt. Fortunately this is just a message board so no need to go ad hominem. In real life, I hold my own intellect wise and I have since childhood. lol ...and nobody in real life has ever called me an idiot. lol

I think too much is made of upstaging on MB sometimes. I don't find real interest in that. Sure I could spend my time Googling and preparing debate but to me a MB is just relaxed conversation. I expect to learn things. I can tell who is smart by how they react to information. Smart people can see where you are trying to go even if they think you are ineffectively making the point or that your argument has flaws. When they are not following you they calmly get more info. They can adapt and they don't feel they have to deny every single point you make just to "win". They don't have to turn every discussion personal...often because they are proud and don't feel like boasting or gloating. They don't need to put someone else down in order to make themselves feel better because average itself is below them. You can just tell. Now...knowledge in areas is something completely different isn't it?

MasterOfPuppets
01-08-2011, 04:45 AM
blaberty blab puppet. I did think Jimmy Johnson was from the South but I am ignorant about NASCAR no doubt. Fortunately this is just a message board so no need to go ad hominem. In real life, I hold my own intellect wise and I have since childhood. lol ...and nobody in real life has ever called me an idiot. lol
your entitled to your own opinion, but your not entitled to your own facts. why not just admit earlier that you know nothing about nascar , instead of making shit up to try to support your opinion. is that your idea of intellect ? gamble and hope that the other person is even more ignorant about the subject than you are ?

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 10:17 AM
One thing is the NHL does a horrible job marketing its players...horrible. They don't give you any touching stories, underdog stories, outlandish fun characters (I'm sure there are plenty but they don't market them well). Crosby is certainly an exception.

They need to find a way to make you care more about one player than another. I hate to say it but taking advantage of some of those fights and rivalries might be a smart move. Let the public know the juice behind the beef. Maybe a little trash talking would be good ...lol I'm not saying turn it into WWE but inject life.

Ummm....what? You don't even pay attention to the sport. How would you know? Were you asleep through all the recent Winter Classic hype or something? Crosby vs. Ovechkin....the whole 4 part HBO special? Do you visit the NHL site (or even the TSN site) and watch all the behind the scenes stuff? You wouldn't know, because I'm 100% sure, you don't look.

You are right that they do get people going (I guess...on highlights it always looks packed) but I guess their problem is in getting interest in TV viewers which would mean sponsors and big money. I think paying some celebrities to be into it and some music artists to be into it and make songs (e.g Kanye West).

Uggghh....I'm sorry, but that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They already have sponsors and big money. You act like the NHL is struggling to gain popularity in the US. They're not....it's just not the most popular sport here (which is fine) and you don't pay attention to it, so you wouldn't know the difference.

Ultimately, though, they have to create more stars that people really can recognize and care about. Every team should have at least 3 and they need to get out into their cities and market themselves and the NHL needs to market them too. So if nothing else the general public should know who the 3 famous and talented players are on their local teams.

Trust me, they do. Do you pay attention to the local media buzz around each team? Do you watch the news videos, highlight videos and in depth stories that they make available to people on each teams NHL site (yes, each team has it's own site with stories and such just like the NFL....some of them are nicer than some teams NFL sites)?

What, you want big cheesy watered down crap shoved down people's throats day in and day out? Just let people enjoy the damn game. It's already over-hyped...anything beyond what they are doing now would just be overkill.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 10:30 AM
Hey I just looked and the Bruins are in first place in their division. We just sucked for so long that I'm surprised. Who's really good on the Bruins? Do we have anyone scary good or is it more of a balanced team?

Hey...only 4/24 players on the Bruins are American. Maybe before we start talking about visual diversity we need to get some Americans in the first place. lol It is an American league.

They take the players that are drafted into the league. Canadian players are just, overall, the best at the game. It might be an "American" league, but it's still dominated by Canada and it's players. I (and many others) think it's a travesty that so many southern teams with 'wishy-washy' fan bases are allowed to have teams in favor of Canadian cities. (Phoenix over Hamilton, 2 teams in Florida and not one in Winnipeg, Atlanta over Quebec City...etc, etc.).

For example...how would you feel if all the sudden, the NFL started moving teams (with good solid fanbases) to Canada or overseas? And kept them there despite struggling fanbases? That's what the NHL did.

Bruins have been doing well for quite a few years now. Have been in the playoffs every year since '06 or '07 (at least). Tim Thomas is the top goalie in the league at the moment (again), and is making a run for another Vezina trophy.

Zdeno Chara (the Captain) certainly has a big personality (to go with his 6'9" / 255 stature)...and is a huge threat on the powerplay. Not my favorite player though...he's big, but not the best fighter. It doesn't happen often enough, but I like to see him get his bell rung lol.

Right now Milan Lucic is the top player on the team with 28 points. That is not a lot, per say...but you have to consider the fact that they have 6 players with 20 or more points...they're getting scoring from a lot of different guys and playing very good defensive hockey. Having Thomas playing at the top of his game again never hurts either.

A little touch on the previous post...if you go to the Bruins site, after you scroll down just a notch from the main stories, you see the BruinsTV videos. First ones are about players going holiday shopping for kids in the hospital, a video about fans meeting their favorite players and a Thanksgiving pie delivery. This is typical of each team.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 12:07 PM
your entitled to your own opinion, but your not entitled to your own facts. why not just admit earlier that you know nothing about nascar , instead of making shit up to try to support your opinion. is that your idea of intellect ? gamble and hope that the other person is even more ignorant about the subject than you are ?

Even though you don't know the difference between "you're" and "your" yet you feel you want to school me on intelligence, you should at least feel rest assured that I did admit I am ignorant about Nascar...but surprise you missed it.

"but I am ignorant about NASCAR no doubt."

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 12:13 PM
Ummm....what? You don't even pay attention to the sport. How would you know? Were you asleep through all the recent Winter Classic hype or something? Crosby vs. Ovechkin....the whole 4 part HBO special? Do you visit the NHL site (or even the TSN site) and watch all the behind the scenes stuff? You wouldn't know, because I'm 100% sure, you don't look.



Uggghh....I'm sorry, but that's just the stupidest thing I've ever heard. They already have sponsors and big money. You act like the NHL is struggling to gain popularity in the US. They're not....it's just not the most popular sport here (which is fine) and you don't pay attention to it, so you wouldn't know the difference.



Trust me, they do. Do you pay attention to the local media buzz around each team? Do you watch the news videos, highlight videos and in depth stories that they make available to people on each teams NHL site (yes, each team has it's own site with stories and such just like the NFL....some of them are nicer than some teams NFL sites)?

What, you want big cheesy watered down crap shoved down people's throats day in and day out? Just let people enjoy the damn game. It's already over-hyped...anything beyond what they are doing now would just be overkill.

Well...not every team has a Crosby to highlight so I'm sure it is different in Pittsburgh.

In general, the public couldn't tell you squat about NHL and even if they don't watch other sports, they can tell you about the famous players. Now one thing I did do yesterday was look up whether the NHL has been struggling or whether it is just my perception. I found that they've been struggling. Since you think things are booming, for the NHL, we can end that discussion right there.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 12:27 PM
Well...not every team has a Crosby to highlight so I'm sure it is different in Pittsburgh.

In general, the public couldn't tell you squat about NHL and even if they don't watch other sports, they can tell you about the famous players. Now one thing I did do yesterday was look up whether the NHL has been struggling or whether it is just my perception. I found that they've been struggling. Since you think things are booming, for the NHL, we can end that discussion right there.

End that discussion? Without even providing a link or anything? How are they struggling? There are teams that are struggling with attendance (and those are teams in cities, that I previously mentioned, don't deserve an NHL team), but it's still a popular sport in the states regardless. What Bettman needs to do though, is quit putting teams in southern cities and move them to Canada and Europe.

I'd just like to see this information that's all, because besides people being upset about some of these southern teams, I haven't heard anything about "struggles".

For example, this past Winter Classic was the most watched hockey game since '74. :noidea: Apparently someone is tuning in. .

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 12:34 PM
They take the players that are drafted into the league. Canadian players are just, overall, the best at the game. It might be an "American" league, but it's still dominated by Canada and it's players. I (and many others) think it's a travesty that so many southern teams with 'wishy-washy' fan bases are allowed to have teams in favor of Canadian cities. (Phoenix over Hamilton, 2 teams in Florida and not one in Winnipeg, Atlanta over Quebec City...etc, etc.).

For example...how would you feel if all the sudden, the NFL started moving teams (with good solid fanbases) to Canada or overseas? And kept them there despite struggling fanbases? That's what the NHL did.

Bruins have been doing well for quite a few years now. Have been in the playoffs every year since '06 or '07 (at least). Tim Thomas is the top goalie in the league at the moment (again), and is making a run for another Vezina trophy.

Zdeno Chara (the Captain) certainly has a big personality (to go with his 6'9" / 255 stature)...and is a huge threat on the powerplay. Not my favorite player though...he's big, but not the best fighter. It doesn't happen often enough, but I like to see him get his bell rung lol.

Right now Milan Lucic is the top player on the team with 28 points. That is not a lot, per say...but you have to consider the fact that they have 6 players with 20 or more points...they're getting scoring from a lot of different guys and playing very good defensive hockey. Having Thomas playing at the top of his game again never hurts either.

A little touch on the previous post...if you go to the Bruins site, after you scroll down just a notch from the main stories, you see the BruinsTV videos. First ones are about players going holiday shopping for kids in the hospital, a video about fans meeting their favorite players and a Thanksgiving pie delivery. This is typical of each team.

Thanks for the Bruins update. I was on the NHL site yesterday and noticing that Tim Thomas...nice.

I couldn't really find any scorers to latch onto though. That Lucic is 29th in goals but since there is not much separating many if he had 3 more goals he could move up to 9th.

IDK. I could be fun. I'd enjoy it more if we had a good scorer.

BTW, I don't live in New England now and I bet you if I went around most people couldn't name a single Hockey player for the local team. On the news, they don't emphasize specific players. Meanwhile people that don't watch NBA, NFL or baseball could name you some local players.

You have a biased view from Pitt. I even knew about Crosby before he entered the league so obviously they did a good job marketing him. At the same time, you seem to know your stuff so you are no casual fan. lol

When playoffs come next year, I will try to watch.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 12:42 PM
End that discussion? Without even providing a link or anything? How are they struggling? There are teams that are struggling with attendance (and those are teams in cities, that I previously mentioned, don't deserve an NHL team), but it's still a popular sport in the states regardless. What Bettman needs to do though, is quit putting teams in southern cities and move them to Canada and Europe.

I'd just like to see this information that's all, because besides people being upset about some of these southern teams, I haven't heard anything about "struggles".

For example, this past Winter Classic was the most watched hockey game since '74. :noidea: Apparently someone is tuning in. .

I can't remember the exact Google terms I used but I did do a lot of reading. I think at the time I was focused on checking out TV performance since you were talking about filling the stands. Honestly I don't feel like putting my time into looking it up again.

Set aside the recent winter classic and I'm sure you will find TV performance is poor for the NHL.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 01:06 PM
SC, the other thing is the reason we can't see eye to eye on this might have something to do with local influences. In my area, NHL is not very popular at all ...period (not even for the Winter Classic...I checked). I also bet you if I looked up the major sports nationally, NHL would be the lowest in popularity. Obviously there are different cultures in different cities/towns. Remember I said in Providence we loved even the Providence Bruins. So the country might have pockets of NHL popularity and non popularity with the overall tipping to non.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 01:12 PM
Thanks for the Bruins update. I was on the NHL site yesterday and noticing that Tim Thomas...nice.

I couldn't really find any scorers to latch onto though. That Lucic is 29th in goals but since there is not much separating many if he had 3 more goals he could move up to 9th.

They're a more defensive minded team, and get even scoring from a number of players. Savard was a big time point scorer (excellent big play set up guy), but he hasn't been right since Cooke knocked his block off last year. He's only played 16 games so far this season.

BTW, I don't live in New England now and I bet you if I went around most people couldn't name a single Hockey player for the local team. On the news, they don't emphasize specific players. Meanwhile people that don't watch NBA, NFL or baseball could name you some local players.
:noidea: It goes both ways though. I couldn't tell you anything about any NBA player outside of Kobe and Lebron, and despise baseball. I seriously only know of Derek Jeter because of SNL. I couldn't even tell you the names of the Pirates owners, coaches or any players...that's how little I care about baseball. Since I don't care, I don't pay attention and anything I do hear goes in one ear and out the other. Maybe the local team near you sucks and that's why?

You have a biased view from Pitt. I even knew about Crosby before he entered the league so obviously they did a good job marketing him. At the same time, you seem to know your stuff so you are no casual fan. lol

When playoffs come next year, I will try to watch.You can call it biased if you want, but I pay attention to more than just Pittsburgh, and followed hockey even when Pitt was absolutely abysmal. Hockey has been my favorite sport since the first time I saw a game at 5. Didn't need hype and flash at all to get me into it...it was just exciting. Took me a lot longer to get into football. And while you could go around and ask about your cities specific team and some people may not know about specific players and such...I guarantee you they know the city has a team and they know what hockey is. Simply put, if they're not fans, they're not fans. Not every team is going to have an overhyped goal scorer...just like every NFL team doesn't have an overhyped TD machine. Know what I mean?

And you should watch the playoffs this year...Boston is fixing to try and make a nice run again.

Let's put it out there this way. The casual NFL fan loves to see Tom Brady or Peyton Manning throw a sweet touchdown...but most casual fans couldn't tell you anything about some of the other players. And die-hard NFL fans cringe and how over-hyped some specific players have become. They also cringe at the thought of Goodell wanting to expand to markets (Europe) that will never sustain a fanbase.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 01:20 PM
I can't remember the exact Google terms I used but I did do a lot of reading. I think at the time I was focused on checking out TV performance since you were talking about filling the stands. Honestly I don't feel like putting my time into looking it up again.

Set aside the recent winter classic and I'm sure you will find TV performance is poor for the NHL.

And like I said...it depends on the market. The southern cities I mentioned are struggling, but they never should have had teams in the first place. The people there just don't care about hockey.

Atlanta had one of the most exciting players in Ilya Kovalchuk for a good period of time, and nobody there gave a crap. They're in a tight race for first in their division and nobody gives a crap. It's just not the right market for that team. It would be the equivalent of taking the Cowboys and putting them in Nova Scotia and expecting them to have the same kind of fanbase.

It struggled for a long time to gain popularity in the states, but since the lockout and the beginning of the cap limit, it's become much more exciting to the casual viewer. Think of how boring baseball and basketball have become (in terms of knowing who's going to be in the playoffs every year and what team is going to have all the big name players) with no cap limit...think of how things might become in the NFL with no cap limit. If hockey is suddenly the only major sport in the US with any kind of parity, it'll become even more popular.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 01:26 PM
SC, the other thing is the reason we can't see eye to eye on this might have something to do with local influences. In my area, NHL is not very popular at all ...period (not even for the Winter Classic...I checked). I also bet you if I looked up the major sports nationally, NHL would be the lowest in popularity. Obviously there are different cultures in different cities/towns. Remember I said in Providence we loved even the Providence Bruins. So the country might have pockets of NHL popularity and non popularity with the overall tipping to non.

No, it's actually 4th in the US (behind the NFL, MLB and NBA...but is gaining on the NBA). Soccer, rugby, lacrosse, volleyball....all sports that are more popular worldwide than any of our leagues, rank much, much lower. It's just never going to be more popular than baseball and football though...it's a cultural thing.

And to be fair, hockey is more popular worldwide than American football. Americans are the only ones who are really, really into it.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 02:36 PM
And you should watch the playoffs this year...Boston is fixing to try and make a nice run again.



Thanks. I will. Part of me inside still would like the Bruins so that's who I'd root for. Thanks for catching me up to date on it. I don't know why i was able to stay a Steelers fan through the tough years but couldn't stick with the Bruins. It's not like i switched though...just lost interest in the sport. If I end up liking the playoffs, I could probably get it on the PS3. That would help me learn the players better.

ETA: You got me a little excited. I was going to try to watch the next game but they are playing at the same time as the jets game so that is a no go but i hear the Canadians are 7-1 in the last 8 games against the bruins so that should be good.

I've come a long way in football. Although I've always been a loyal fan, it is not until the last 5 years or so that I fully understood the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE and started to know ALL the players of the 53 and even the ones that didn't make the cut. I'm always learning. It was only last year that i learned what a "twist" is.


No, it's actually 4th in the US (behind the NFL, MLB and NBA...but is gaining on the NBA). Soccer, rugby, lacrosse, volleyball....all sports that are more popular worldwide than any of our leagues, rank much, much lower. It's just never going to be more popular than baseball and football though...it's a cultural thing.

And to be fair, hockey is more popular worldwide than American football. Americans are the only ones who are really, really into it.

LOL That's where I would have put it...4th (last). I only considered 4 major sports lol. I never counted soccer, Rugby, lacrosse, volleyball as major sports.

Basketball is only exciting during the playoffs. Regular season basketball is funny because when I come 4th quarter I feel like I've seen all I need to see. If the game is close, perfect...I didn't miss anything and the good part will be the 4th quarter. If the game is a blow out, then watch for a little then turn it off if it doesn't seem like a comeback is forming.

I am a Lebron fan so i follow the Heat. I hate the Lakers (my brother likes them)...lol

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 02:40 PM
SC...I think Heavy Metal would be a good analogy. You can't question a person that likes heavy metal about its popularity. Their network will be filled with other people that like the music because they attract each other etc. Meanwhile the person who doesn't like heavy metal will have been around a network of people who also do not like it (for the most part).

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 02:56 PM
Thanks. I will. Part of me inside still would like the Bruins so that's who I'd root for. Thanks for catching me up to date on it. I don't know why i was able to stay a Steelers fan through the tough years but couldn't stick with the Bruins. It's not like i switched though...just lost interest in the sport. If I end up liking the playoffs, I could probably get it on the PS3. That would help me learn the players better.

Yeah, I can understand the regular season being hard to get into and follow for some. Playoffs are a whole other beast though. Every arena is charged up and teams just play with a different intensity. Most pregame shows do a pretty good job of covering who's done what for the team and who sits in what place in the stats and what not as well (for people who don't follow a ton of regular season coverage). It's a good time...it's even better in person. There's no way you can go to a live playoff game and not get swept up in it.

I've come a long way in football. Although I've always been a loyal fan, it is not until the last 5 years or so that I fully understood the difference between a 3-4 DE and a 4-3 DE and started to know ALL the players of the 53 and even the ones that didn't make the cut. I'm always learning. It was only last year that i learned what a "twist" is.I know the feeling. It took me a long time to get the intricacies of football down. I enjoyed rooting for the Steelers with my Dad as a kid, but it wasn't until I was 15 or 16 that I really ever cared to even sit down and actually pay attention to what was going on. I had just never had the same focus with it as I did with hockey. I'm still not the biggest X's and O's type of person when it comes to football, but I'm learning more from the boards every season.


LOL That's where I would have put it...4th (last). I only considered 4 major sports lol. I never counted soccer, Rugby, lacrosse, volleyball as major sports. And nationally it's gaining on basketball (and will with baseball soon too, as long as both don't have a cap, it will continue too). There's just something utterly boring about leagues with no cap limit. Parity is essential for leagues IMO. Unless you live in the city that is constantly in the playoffs or constantly winning championships, you get bored with it. That's pretty much why football surpassed baseball as the most popular sport in the US...there was more parity. And if the NFL goes uncapped a ton of people will become disinterested. It won't happen overnight...but if it stays that way long enough, it'll absolutely ruin the sport for many. Guarantee it.

Look at it this way. The NHL was in real trouble 6+ years ago, when there was no cap and little parity. They had the lockout, instituted a cap limit, and it's done nothing but get more popular nationally ever since. It's not going to shoot up to the top overnight, just like not everyone is going to quit watching the NFL overnight if it goes uncapped...but that parity makes a ton of difference. Outside of Canada, the NHL hasn't ever seen the kind of success it's seeing right now. It's the one really good thing that Bettman did lol.

Basketball is only exciting during the playoffs. Regular season basketball is funny because when I come 4th quarter I feel like I've seen all I need to see. If the game is close, perfect...I didn't miss anything and the good part will be the 4th quarter. If the game is a blow out, then watch for a little then turn it off if it doesn't seem like a comeback is forming.

I am a Lebron fan so i follow the Heat. I hate the Lakers (my brother likes them)...lolI was into basketball a little when I was in high school. It just seems like so much showboating now. I haven't watched it in years, so maybe it's changed a little...but I never got the sense that players were in it for each other, for the team. It always felt like guys just out there for themselves. I don't know...maybe I'm wrong, but it just hasn't appealed to me in a long, long time.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 03:26 PM
SC...the other interesting thing to see would be where Hockey fits in with ALL sports. I'm convinced College football would be more popular and college basketball might give a run for its money.

The interesting thing would be if the top 2 rivals of each sport was on TV vs hockey, who would watch hockey vs the other sport.

Red Sox vs Yankees vs Hockey
Patriots vs Steelers vs Hockey
Lakers vs Heat vs Hockey
Top 2 College Football teams vs Hockey (It doesn't have to be the Championship game)
Top 2 College Basketball teams vs Hockey (" ")
Tiger vs Michelson on a Sunday vs Hockey
Women's Tennis might even give hockey a run...lol Serena W. vs Clijesters

For Hockey you can sub whatever 2 teams you think Hockey fans would most like to see.

I think all those i named would give that hockey a run for its money.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 03:29 PM
I was into basketball a little when I was in high school. It just seems like so much showboating now. I haven't watched it in years, so maybe it's changed a little...but I never got the sense that players were in it for each other, for the team. It always felt like guys just out there for themselves. I don't know...maybe I'm wrong, but it just hasn't appealed to me in a long, long time.

I know what you mean. I get that feeling until 4th quarter (except playoffs). I really do think it feels like a team game 4th quarter. The intensity kicks up.

You have to have a favorite team and favorite players to enjoy the game.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 03:46 PM
SC...the other interesting thing to see would be where Hockey fits in with ALL sports. I'm convinced College football would be more popular and college basketball might give a run for its money.

The interesting thing would be if the top 2 rivals of each sport was on TV vs hockey, who would watch hockey vs the other sport.

Red Sox vs Yankees vs Hockey
Patriots vs Steelers vs Hockey
Lakers vs Heat vs Hockey
Top 2 College Football teams vs Hockey (It doesn't have to be the Championship game)
Top 2 College Basketball teams vs Hockey (" ")
Tiger vs Michelson on a Sunday vs Hockey
Women's Tennis might even give hockey a run...lol Serena W. vs Clijesters

For Hockey you can sub whatever 2 teams you think Hockey fans would most like to see.

I think all those i named would give that hockey a run for its money.

In the states yeah...but the NHL doesn't just market to the US. Canada alone would boost the ratings up.

I'll always agree with you, that at the moment, the other leagues get more attention. That doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people that watch the games though.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 07:25 PM
In the states yeah...but the NHL doesn't just market to the US. Canada alone would boost the ratings up.

I'll always agree with you, that at the moment, the other leagues get more attention. That doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people that watch the games though.

Well you are a good spokesperson and you know your stuff. You got me interested in it a little. You should get a marketing job with the NHL...lol

I really think I'd have fun if we had a superstar scorer. Like I said...You did a good job.
I'm feeling good about our Goalie Tim Thomas now though.

We are winning 1-0. I might watch both games (Jets/Bruins). Beating the Canadians is good.

ETA: Score 2-0. I'm going back to Football. Tough to watch both.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 07:40 PM
g. Well you are a good spokesperson and you know your stuff. You got me interested in it a little. You should get a marketing job with the NHL...lol

I really think I'd have fun if we had a superstar scorer. Like I said...You did a good job.
I'm feeling good about our Goalie Tim Thomas now though.

We are winning 1-0. I might watch both games (Jets/Bruins). Beating the Canadians is good.

Yeah, having a big superstar on your team is nice sometimes, but it isn't everything. The NJ Devils have been perennial playoff and cup contenders and they made a HUGE deal for Kovalchuk (a little over 100 Mill for 17 years) and in doing so have pretty much screwed the team in many other ways (gave up some key defensive players, his cap hit really hurts the team if anyone even gets hurt for a game or two and he just hasn't been producing). The team is 10(W)-29(L)-2(OT Loss) with 22 points after being the top team in the Eastern Conference with 103 points last season, with an extremely defensive team...they are now the absolute worst team in the league. So you've got to have balance.

Some people think bringing in Crosby and Ovechkin saved those franchises (in the standings) and while they certainly didn't hurt, it's more about the chemistry of a team you put together. Shero (Pens GM) did an absolutely brilliant job putting complimentary players around his superstars. Otherwise, having Crosby would be worthless.

B's are up 2-0 now...I hope they win too. I hate Montreal lol.

Pens are down 2-0 against Minnesota, I guess choosing playoff football over a regular season game was a good choice. :chuckle: (Yes, I actually struggled with this for a few minutes)

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-08-2011, 07:44 PM
Why does it matter what color people are to make it interesting?

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 07:45 PM
And I swear, I don't mean to be so overbearing about it...but once I get going about hockey sometimes, I can't shut up. :chuckle:

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 07:55 PM
In the states yeah...but the NHL doesn't just market to the US. Canada alone would boost the ratings up.

I'll always agree with you, that at the moment, the other leagues get more attention. That doesn't mean that there aren't a ton of people that watch the games though.

By the way, what are the 2 teams that hockey fans around the country would most be excited to see? Is it Pitt vs Washington?

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 08:01 PM
B's are up 2-0 now...I hope they win too. I hate Montreal lol.

Pens are down 2-0 against Minnesota, I guess choosing playoff football over a regular season game was a good choice. :chuckle: (Yes, I actually struggled with this for a few minutes)

Yeah...with hockey, you can't turn away for a second. I was watching it on the computer and I turned away for a second to see a first down catch and the Bruins scored. I couldn't believe I missed it live. lol I had to watch the replay.

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 08:03 PM
By the way, what are the 2 teams that hockey fans around the country would most be excited to see? Is it Pitt vs Washington?

It depends on who you ask really. Pens biggest (real) rivals are by far the Flyers. Those are some fun games to watch. Lots of fights, lots of hits, and no shortage of scoring. Flyers fans hate us, and equally, we hate them.

Toronto/Montreal, Detroit/Chicago, Vancouver/Detroit (Vancouver and Detroit are fun games all around to watch...and I HATE Detroit), Pens/Caps, Pens/Flyers, San Jose/LA, Boston/Montreal....there's tons of good rivalries.

The most boring teams, IMO, are Florida, Atlanta, Columbus (unless the Pens are playing them and it's just a ruckus cause Pens fans invade that place). They are mostly boring because there's no crowd action. There's bad teams (like the Oilers and Leafs) who are still fun to watch because the fans are always there and always into it.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 08:10 PM
Why does it matter what color people are to make it interesting?

It's not really a debatable thing whether different backgrounds makes it more interesting. Either it does for you or it doesn't. There are some people who miss the good 'ol 60s after all. lol Believe me, I know there are a group of people that even hate diversity. Point being if some find it more interesting then that's enough to boost ratings (unless some of the originals drop). It's sort of like asking why Survivor shouldn't be all men. Hey...are you saying men don't have differences? What are you getting at?

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-08-2011, 08:29 PM
I guess I am just living the pipe dream that skin color has nothing to do with anything.

I don't care that Obama was the first black President, to me he is the 44th President...period

I don't care that Tiger Woods was the first black golfer to win the Masters, to me he is just a great golfer

Etc.

It just seems to me that making a big deal over someone of a certain *(race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.) being successful is very demeaning to their *(race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.). Almost like "Oh my God, about time a *(woman, black person, brown eyed guy with a lisp) actually accomplished something."

Rap music is pretty popular with suburban white kids without any diversity. White people have Eminem...and Vanilla Ice...

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 08:40 PM
White people have Eminem...and Vanilla Ice...

:sofunny: I lol'd.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 08:56 PM
I guess I am just living the pipe dream that skin color has nothing to do with anything.

I don't care that Obama was the first black President, to me he is the 44th President...period

I don't care that Tiger Woods was the first black golfer to win the Masters, to me he is just a great golfer

Etc.

It just seems to me that making a big deal over someone of a certain *(race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.) being successful is very demeaning to their *(race, gender, sexuality, color, etc.). Almost like "Oh my God, about time a *(woman, black person, brown eyed guy with a lisp) actually accomplished something."

Rap music is pretty popular with suburban white kids without any diversity. White people have Eminem...and Vanilla Ice...

In some instances it represents overcoming challenges, stereotypes, hatred, etc. It can be a celebration of people NOT focusing on race and thus producing the result. Obama is a big deal. I remember when I saw "24" with a black President, it seemed fake and unrealistic and now that seems so ordinary (Event has a black Pres too). Sometimes people need to SEE things in reality...not just theory. Believe me, when Hillary Clinton wins president it will be a big deal and a huge accomplishment for women. It will not be insulting to women...not at all.

It may sound more ideal to "not notice" things but if real challenges are ignored/not appreciated in the vein of imaginary ideal, you might be selling yourself short.

As far as diversity and variety, some like it, some don't care and some hate it. Obviously there are people who feel at home in Iowa.

There is nothing wrong with hoping for ideals but it might not be great if one thinks just because he/she has reached the ideal, there is no more fuss and everyone automatically has reached the ideal.

It is like saying "I don't think women should be beat and I don't beat women so let's never talk about beating women again". It's those of you who say you notice women being beat who have a problem. It should never be mentioned. Yada Yada.

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 08:57 PM
:sofunny: I lol'd.

Totally disrespected the Beastie Boys by omission...

SteelKnight
01-08-2011, 09:28 PM
I guess I am just living the pipe dream that skin color has nothing to do with anything.
.

BTW, if i were picking states that would have a good understanding of the challenges of race, of all the 50 states, I would name your state 2nd ...right after Mississippi. So I'm not sure why you are so puzzled.:sofunny:

I_Bleed_Black_And_Gold
01-08-2011, 10:17 PM
I'm from L.A. originally...Then Pittsburgh, Chicago, Gary, and Port Charlotte, FL :sofunny:

I dunno, I guess I just have a weird view on things. To me if a person is qualified to do the task, and they do it well, who cares what color/gender/etc. they are.

I don't care if my surgeon is the first homosexual Chilean open heart surgeon with hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia as long as he saves my life.

SteelKnight
01-10-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm from L.A. originally...Then Pittsburgh, Chicago, Gary, and Port Charlotte, FL :sofunny:

I dunno, I guess I just have a weird view on things. To me if a person is qualified to do the task, and they do it well, who cares what color/gender/etc. they are.

I don't care if my surgeon is the first homosexual Chilean open heart surgeon with hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia as long as he saves my life.

I think most people agree with that. I certainly do. Unfortunately not everyone does.

It still doesn't erase the challenges people face. Being unaware of what is going on isn't always a strength.

BTW, what is the meaning of your Obama signature picture?