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mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 01:30 PM
Congresswoman, 6 Others, Killed By Gunman
http://www.npr.org/2011/01/08/132764367/congresswoman-shot-in-arizona
by NPR Staff
January 8, 2011

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and six others died after a gunman opened fire at a public event on Saturday, member station KJZZ in Phoenix has confirmed.

The Pima County, Ariz., sheriff's office told news director Mark Moran the 40-year-old Democrat was killed.

Giffords, who was re-elected to her third term in November, was hosting a "Congress on Your Corner" event at a Safeway in northwest Tucson when a gunman ran up and started shooting, according to Peter Michaels, news director of Arizona Public Media.

Giffords was talking to a couple when the suspect ran up and fired indiscriminately from about four feet away, Michaels said.

Giffords was first elected to represent Arizona's 8th District in 2006. The "Congress on Your Corner" events allow constituents to present their concerns directly to her.

Giffords was married to astronaut Mark Kelly, a veteran of Desert Storm. They have two children.

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 01:42 PM
Note now there are conflicting reports she has been shot but is not clear if she has died.

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 01:48 PM
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/44/2011/01/reports-arizona-rep-gabrielle.html?hpid=topnews
"Last March, Giffords was one of 10 House Democrats who were the subject of harassment over their support for the national health care overhaul. At the time, the front door of Giffords' Tucson office had been shattered in an early morning incident."

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 01:52 PM
Arizona Congresswoman Giffords shot in Tucson

Jan. 8, 2011 12:35 PM
The Arizona Republic/12News Breaking News Team

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords of Arizona was shot at a Tucson event Saturday morning; five others have been reportedly killed.

There are conflicting reports about Giffords' condition: CNN, FOX and NPR news report that the congresswoman is dead; but MSNBC interviewed the Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik and he said as of 12:25 p.m., she was still alive.

At least four people are dead, University Medical Center spokesman Darci Slaten said. They were among five to seven people who were being treated

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-giffords-brk.html#ixzz1ATWt9HzM

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 01:54 PM
The Congresswoman is known for cracking down on illegal immigration, urging deployment of the National Guard and new technology to protect the Arizona border.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/01/08/2011-01-08_us_congresswoman_gabrielle_giffords_shot_in_ari zona_multiple_wounded.html#ixzz1ATXOOAdv

Atlanta Dan
01-08-2011, 03:05 PM
The Congresswoman is known for cracking down on illegal immigration, urging deployment of the National Guard and new technology to protect the Arizona border.

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2011/01/08/2011-01-08_us_congresswoman_gabrielle_giffords_shot_in_ari zona_multiple_wounded.html#ixzz1ATXOOAdv

I suppose it could be a supporter of illegal immigration.who pulled the trigger

Then again maybe not

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/.a/6a00d83451c45669e20147e162af25970b

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 03:06 PM
Per local TV station news conference at the hospital,

Congresswoman Giffords is out of surgery and the surgeon is optimistic that she will live. Her chances of a full recovery are not yet known. Congresswoman Giffords was shot once in the head at close range.

hindes204
01-08-2011, 03:08 PM
Ive been following this all morning..........sad


What the hell is wrong with people, regardless of politics, there is no reason to ever do something like this

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 03:09 PM
I suppose it could be a supporter of illegal immigration.who pulled the trigger

Then again maybe not



No news yet as to motive.

Just as likely it was over the health care reform since she had been threatened and her office was vandalized during the debate.

Then again it could be a foreign terrorist.

Atlanta Dan
01-08-2011, 03:14 PM
No news yet as to motive.

Just as likely it was over the health care reform since she had been threatened and her office was vandalized during the debate.

Then again it could be a foreign terrorist.

The congresswoman's father appears to have his suspicions

The congresswoman’s father Spencer Gifford, 75, was rushing to the hospital when asked if his 40-year-old daughter had any enemies.

"Yeah," he told The Post. "The whole tea party."
http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/ariz_congresswoman_shot_in_head_YFTvsurRHy5OWGSRKn uK8J#ixzz1ATfPK9fq

We will obviously find out soon enough - my bet is the FBI already has secured the perp's computer with a search warrant - anybody in that guy's Outlook address book or on his cell phone's contact list will be visited by law enforcement in the near future

hindes204
01-08-2011, 03:43 PM
If it was a member of tea party, the media will have a field day with it

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 03:44 PM
There will a news conference at 6:00 pm Arizona time.

Arizona Congresswoman Giffords shot; doctors 'optimistic' about recovery chances
6 killed, 18 wounded

Jan. 8, 2011 02:15 PM
The Arizona Republic/12News Breaking News Team

Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is out of surgery and one of her surgeons said "I'm very optimistic about her recovery."

"She was shot one time in the head through and through," Dr. Peter Rhee said at an afternoon news conference at University Medical Center in Tucson.

He said the congresswoman was following commands, a good sign, he said.

Giffords, 40, a third-term Democrat, was shot at an event in Tucson Saturday morning, at a Safeway at Ina and Oracle roads. Authorities identified the gunman as Jared Laughner and said the 22-year-old suspect is in custody. (Doesn't sound like a foreign terrorist. - mesa)

Six people, including a girl who was about nine years old, were killed and 18 were injured in the shooting at a Safeway in northwest Tucson at Ina and Oracle roads. The first 911 call came in at 10:11 a.m.

Initial reports had emergency crews treating five to seven people at the scene; authorities said later the tally was much higher because some of the wounded took themselves to the hospital.

The first 911 call came in at 10:11 a.m. The gunman opened fire with a pistol with an extended magazine.

Other than Giffords, there were several other prominent people in the crowd, including another who was seriously injured, Kastigar said.

The NBC affiliate in Tucson reports that the FBI has taken over the investigation.

Ryan Green, who works at the Pak Mail shipping store in the Safeway shopping center, said he heard 15 shots a few minutes after 10 a.m. Green said he waited for the shooting to stop before he went outside to see people on the ground."It was pandemonium," Green said. "One guy was shot in the leg, walking like Quasimodo."

Green rushed back into the shop, locked the door and waited for police to arrive, he said.

A man who works at Sprint store nearby told CNN he heard 15 to 20 shots, and there are two bodies on the ground in front of the Safeway. He said people were screaming that "Gabrielle Giffords has been shot."

Giffords was reportedly holding one of her "Congress on Your Corner" meetings with constituents when a gunman open fire outside the store.

Giffords held the meetings regularly to listen to concerns from constituents. During a similar event in 2009 in Douglas there was a tense moment when a protestor who had brought a gun dropped the firearm and police were alerted. The 2009 meeting took place during the height of the fury over President Obama's health care reform debate. In an interview, Giffords was nonchalant about the incident.

"When you represent a district that includes the homes of the O.K Corral and Tombstone, 'The Town Too Tough to Die,' nothing's a surprise out in Cochise County," Giffords said during an August 2009 meeting with the Arizona Republic Editorial Board.

In November, Giffords a moderate Democrat, won re-election to her third 2-year term, narrowly escaping defeat to Republican businessman Jesse Kelly in a contentious race that centered largely on the issue of illegal immigration and border security, two hot button issues in southern Arizona.

Although immigration and border security played a role in every major race in the state, the debate was especially fierce in the 8th Congressional District. The District includes a 114-mile stretch of the U.S. border
with Mexico.

During the campaign, Giffords touted her efforts to push the Obama administration to deploy National Guard troops to the border and for playing an instrumental role in securing $600 million in funding to add more technology and Border Patrol agents.

Kelly criticized Giffords for not doing enough and had called for the construction of a double-layer border fence, more Border Patrol agents and the deployment of 10,000 National Guard troops to the border, more than eight times the 1,200 sent by the Obama Administration. At one point during the heated campaign, Kelly had said Giffords had "betrayed southern Arizona by refusing to secure the border."

Giffords opposed SB 1070, the state's new controversial immigration law, calling it "divisive." She supported instead comprehensive immigration reform at the federal law. The law sought to make it a state crime to be in the country illegally and to require police to question suspected illegal immigrants. Kelly supported the law, and opposed sweeping reforms in favor of stricter enforcement of existing laws.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/08/20110108arizona-giffords-brk.html#ixzz1ATygt7iP

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 03:47 PM
Gunman Identified As Jared Lee Loughner, Who Posted This Video On YouTube

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/jared-lee-loughner-2011-1#ixzz1ATzVI6En

(See link for pictures. - mesa)

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 04:04 PM
THE SECOND COMING
William Butler Yeats (1865-1939)
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;

Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,

The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;

The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out

When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;

A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,

And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

(The Congresswoman was a moderate Democrat.

Truly "things fall apart", and "the center can not hold". I only wonder "what rough beast" is being born. - mesa)

Atlanta Dan
01-08-2011, 04:06 PM
If it was a member of tea party, the media will have a field day with it

A portion of the media will, just as Fox News would if the shooter was an illegal immigrant

Based on what we are hearing about this guy's "manifesto" so far he appears to pretty much anti-authority of any kind rather than classic Tea Party

Will be interested in finding out what the federal judge (Bush 41 appointee) who was killed was doing at the Safeway

SteelCityMom
01-08-2011, 04:08 PM
Wow...what a f-ed up incident. I feel for the families of the murdered, especially of the little girl. Amazing that the Rep got shot in the head and is doing fairly well after surgery.

Thanks for keeping us updated Mesa and Dan.

Atlanta Dan
01-08-2011, 04:37 PM
Nobody just writes a crazed manifesto anymore like the Unabomber

Instead, we get shooter Jared Lee Loughner's YouTube production - WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

hindes204
01-08-2011, 04:49 PM
Nobody just writes a crazed manifesto anymore like the Unabomber

Instead, we get shooter Jared Lee Loughner's YouTube production - WTF?

http://www.youtube.com/user/Classitup10#p/u/1/nHoaZaLbqB4

This guy has some serious mental issues

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 06:34 PM
This guy has some serious mental issues

Of that there is no doubt.I hope it does not spark any copycats.

MattsMe
01-08-2011, 07:09 PM
Will be interested in finding out what the federal judge (Bush 41 appointee) who was killed was doing at the Safeway

Grocery shopping? :noidea:

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 07:12 PM
Grocery shopping? :noidea:

The Judge had stopped by to say hello to the Congresswoman. They had worked together on immigration issues.

Atlanta Dan
01-08-2011, 07:18 PM
The Judge had stopped by to say hello to the Congresswoman. They had worked together on immigration issues.

That nugget makes awful news even more awful - lots of life is random

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 09:14 PM
Sheriff: Possible second suspect
http://eastvalleytribune.com/arizona/article_75580314-1b91-11e0-90de-001cc4c002e0.html

Posted: Saturday, January 8, 2011 6:40 pm | Updated: 7:19 pm, Sat Jan 8, 2011.

The Associated Press | 1 comment

TUCSON — The Arizona sheriff helping investigate the shooting of Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and others says the gunman may not have acted alone.

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said at a news conference in Tucson on Saturday that authorities may have a photo of another suspect.

Dupnik says officials believe a suspect in custody may have come to the grocery store parking lot with another person, and that person was in some way involved. Dupnik would offer no other information.

People familiar with the investigation have identified the suspected gunman being held as 22-year-old Jared Loughner.

Sheriff: Shooter targeted Rep. Giffords

TUCSON — Law enforcement officials believe Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords was the intended target of an armed attack in Tucson.

Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik said at a Saturday evening news conference that "I don't have information about whether she was the first person shot, but yes, I believe she was the target."

The sheriff said Giffords was shot once in the head, and 18 other people were shot. Six are dead.

mesaSteeler
01-08-2011, 09:31 PM
Tucson rampage casts light on toxic political tone


Posted: Saturday, January 8, 2011 7:57 pm
http://eastvalleytribune.com/nation_world/article_9990468c-1b9c-11e0-aa27-001cc4c002e0.html?mode=print
By Charles Babington, The Associated Press | 0 comments

WASHINGTON — Politicians of all stripes are bound to be haunted by Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' warning, 10 months before she was shot, to cool the rhetoric.

It's been a year or more of raw politics, with anger spilling over on both sides and gun-related metaphors coming loosely from the lips of some candidates and activists. Giffords, a figurative target of the right, on Saturday became the actual target of a gunman who shot her through the head and killed at least five others. She was critically wounded.

The gunman's motive is not known.

But in Pima County, Ariz., Sheriff Clarence Dupnik suggested "all this vitriol" in recent political discourse might be connected to Saturday's shootings. "This may be free speech," he told reporters, "but it's not without consequences."

(The sheriff is 100% correct. The endless hate government, toxic crap pumped out by the political pornographers of talk radio excited this nut to go an rampage. Sure let's do away with government. We can all go back to living in a state of nature where life will be "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short". - mesa)

Whatever the motive, the toxic tone of the national debate is certain to draw greater scrutiny.

"We do know that politics has become too personal, too nasty and perhaps too dangerous," said Jonathan Cowan, president of the centrist Democratic group Third Way. "Perhaps out of this senseless act some sense can return to our public discourse."

In the aftermath of the rampage, the House's newly installed Republican leaders postponed Wednesday's scheduled vote to repeal the new health care law, the issue at the center of the harshest criticisms of Giffords and many other Democrats for the past two years. Lawmakers from both parties were deeply shaken.

Many lawmakers, especially Democrats, felt the 2009-2010 debate over health care sometimes got out of hand. It began with emotional town hall meetings in the summer of 2009, when some critics warned of government "death panels."

Giffords, 40, was among lawmakers who reported 42 threats or acts or vandalism in the first three months of 2010, a big increase over the previous year, law enforcement officers said. Nearly all the threats dealt with the massive health care bill that Giffords and other Democrats enacted over fierce Republican opposition.

In March, someone kicked in or shot out a glass door and side window at Giffords' office in Tucson, a few hours after the House passed the health care measure with her help.

Giffords also was among about 20 Democrats opposed in last fall's elections by Sarah Palin, the 2008 GOP vice presidential nominee. Palin's Facebook page in March posted a U.S. map with the cross-hairs of a gun scope imposed over each of the 20 Democrats' districts. Gun imagery appeared in various ways in the campaign, often not connected at all with gun rights.

"We're on Sarah Palin's targeted list," Giffords said at the time. "The way that she has it depicted has the crosshairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they've got to realize there are consequences to that action."

Ferocious comments, and even occasional violence, certainly animate American politics from time to time; witness the bloody drive for racial equality and desegregation, and the antiwar protests, of the 20th century. The question now, and again, is how much is too much, and how hot is too hot, in political discourse.

The Jewish Council for Public Affairs said in a statement: "While we do not know the motives for today's attack, we do know that it cannot be viewed apart from the climate of violence and the degradation of civil society that are anathema to democracy."

The suspected shooter, Jared Loughner, complained about the government in online diatribes that also spoke in scattered ways of currency, terrorism and "mind control." But what might have driven him to violence has not been established.

"We don't yet know what provoked this unspeakable act," President Barack Obama said from the White House. "We are going to get to the bottom of this."

___

Steelboy84
01-08-2011, 11:56 PM
Funny thing is that comments on this story on other sites were automatically claiming he was either black or Muslim.

ricardisimo
01-09-2011, 02:47 AM
Very sad, very sickening. Dude was obviously disturbed, no other way to explain it. There are no significant differences between almost any US parties to get worked up about at all, let alone into a murderous froth.

Kudos to the folks in the crowd who gang-tackled him to stop the rampage. Very courageous.

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 08:41 AM
Daniel Hernandez, intern, stays by Gabrielle Giffords' side
UA student pulls her into lap, holds head to stop bleeding

by Jaimee Rose and Mary Jo Pitzl - Jan. 9, 2011 12:01 AM
The Arizona Republic

Daniel Hernandez had been U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords' intern for five days when she was shot Saturday outside Tucson.

The junior at the University of Arizona was helping check people in at the "Congress on Your Corner" event when he heard gunfire. He was about 30 feet from the congresswoman. When the shots began, he ran toward them.

"I don't even know if the gunfire had stopped," he said Saturday night as he kept a vigil at the University Medical Center cafeteria, gathered near a TV watching tributes and getting updates.

When the shots began that morning, he saw many people lying on the ground, including a young girl. Some were bleeding. Hernandez said he moved from person to person checking pulses.

"First the neck, then the wrist," he said. One man was already dead. Then he saw Giffords. She had fallen and was lying contorted on the sidewalk. She was bleeding.

Using his hand, Hernandez applied pressure to the entry wound on her forehead. He pulled her into his lap, holding her upright against him so she wouldn't choke on her own blood. Giffords was conscious, but quiet.

Ron Barber, Giffords' district director, was next to her. Hernandez told a bystander how to apply pressure to one of Barber's wounds.

Barber told Hernandez, "Make sure you stay with Gabby. Make sure you help Gabby."

Hernandez used his hand to apply pressure until someone from inside Safeway brought him clean smocks from the meat department. He used them to apply pressure on the entrance wound, unaware there was an exit wound. He never let go of her.

He stayed with Giffords until paramedics arrived. They strapped her to a board and loaded her into an ambulance. Hernandez climbed in with her. On the ride to the hospital, he held her hand. She squeezed his back.

When they arrived at the hospital, Hernandez was soaked in blood. His family brought him clean clothes because the FBI took his for evidence.

He waited at the hospital while she went into surgery. He needed to tell police what had happened. He overheard people walking by talking about how Giffords had died. He also heard this on NPR. Later, he learned she had lived.

"I was ecstatic," he said. "She was one of the people I've looked up to. Knowing she was alive and still fighting was good news. She's definitely a fighter, whether for her own life, or standing up for people in southern Arizona."

The fact that Hernandez was nearby and able to react quickly probably saved Giffords' life, said state Rep. Matt Heinz, D-Tucson, and a hospital physician. He talked to Hernandez at the hospital after the shooting.

Eight hours after the shooting, Hernandez stood with Giffords' friends and staff and told them what had happened. The tall, strong 20-year-old said, "Of course you're afraid, you just kind of have to do what you can."

They hugged and thanked him. Later, he sat with his mom and sisters and told them about his friends and the staffers who had died that day.

"You just have to be calm and collected," he said. "You do no good to anyone if you have a breakdown. . . . It was probably not the best idea to run toward the gunshots, but people needed help."

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/09/20110109daniel-hernandez-gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting.html#ixzz1AY6u0kOa

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 08:43 AM
Authorities seek associate of Jared Loughner in Tucson shooting

by Amy B Wang - Jan. 9, 2011 03:57 AM
The Arizona Republic

Authorities are seeking help identifying a man who is believed to be associated with the suspect in the Tucson mass shooting, which left six people dead and injured 13 others, including U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords. (see link at bottom for picture of associate. - mesa)

The Pima County Sheriff's Department said investigators believe the man is associated with the suspected shooter, who has been identified through law enforcement sources as Jared Loughner, 22. The suspected shooter is in custody.

The man is described as a White male, approximately 40 to 50 years old, with dark hair. He was last seen wearing blue jeans and a dark blue jacket.

Anyone who knows the man's identity is asked to contact 911, 520-88-CRIME or the FBI at 520-791-6974.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/09/20110109arizona-shooting-jared-loughner-associate.html#ixzz1AY7Z1H1A

theplatypus
01-09-2011, 08:47 AM
Truly senseless.

Hopefully this will serve as a wake up call to those that are constantly spewing their vitriol and mythinformation that they're doing more harm than good.

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 08:49 AM
Very sad, very sickening. Dude was obviously disturbed, no other way to explain it. There are no significant differences between almost any US parties to get worked up about at all, let alone into a murderous froth.

Kudos to the folks in the crowd who gang-tackled him to stop the rampage. Very courageous.

There were two of them according to eye witness reports but I have not seen anything on their identities. And I completely agree with you. They were damn brave people to charge and tackle this nut.

"Dupnik said Giffords was among 13 people wounded in the melee that killed six people - including 9-year-old Christina Greene, 30-year-old Gifford aide Gabe Zimmerman, and U.S. District Judge John Roll. The 63-year-old judge had just stopped by to see his friend Giffords after attending Mass. Dupnik said the rampage ended only after two people tackled the gunman. Also killed were 76-year-old Dorthy Murray, 76-year-old Dorwin Stoddard, and 79-year-old Phyllis Scheck, investigators said."

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 08:55 AM
Attack on homegrown Gabrielle Giffords is personal

by Linda Valdez, columnist - Jan. 8, 2011 08:58 PM
The Arizona Republic

TUCSON - She is ours. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is a Tucson girl, born, raised and graduated from a public high school in our city. The cheeky commercials for her family's tire business became part of the local folklore as I was growing up.

To the world, what happened Saturday is referred to as a "killing spree in Arizona." For Tucson, it is a very personal pain.

Gabby is the kind of hometown girl you can be proud of for all the good, old-fashioned reasons. She's poised, intelligent, well-spoken. And tough.

She faced threats before. Her office was vandalized hours after her vote in support of President Barack Obama's health-care reform. She kept on going. Someone dropped a gun at one of her "Congress on Your Corner" events in the angry summer of 2009. She downplayed it. Sarah Palin put Giffords in the crosshairs of a gun sight as one of the top "targets" of the November election.

In response, Giffords told MSNBC: "When people do that, they have to realize that there are consequences to that action." She won re-election.

Outside University Medical Center, where Giffords was taken after being shot, her communications director, C.J. Karamargin, said she'd spent a busy first week of her third term representing Congressional District 8. Her activities included reading the First Amendment on the floor of the House. It was an event planned by the new Republican majority. Giffords, a Democrat, used it to show she had every intention of being a player in this Congress.

Her week's work ended Saturday morning at a supermarket where she went to talk to her constituents. There was no security, according to the Pima County Sheriff's Department. There was only the congresswoman's confidence that in a free country, elected officials should be safe to walk among those they represent.

Now she's fighting for her life after a rampage by a madman. Six people are dead.

Tucson cringed as the news of the killings spread. A lazy morning of coffee and family conversation became something else. Something incomprehensible. Horrible. I cried. Then I pulled on some work clothes, grabbed a notebook and headed to the hospital.

I had to be professional. But this was also personal.

This was the woman who spoke warmly to my daughter when she showed up at the congresswoman's office as part of a local Jewish-Latino coalition several years ago. This was the woman who went out of her way to stop and say hello to my husband and me at a downtown cafe one morning this fall. Giffords represented southern Arizona with the intensity of the Energizer Bunny and the style of Jackie Kennedy.

It wasn't just the media that crowded into a conference room to hear Dr. Peter Rhee, head of UMC's trauma department, give an update on Giffords' condition Saturday afternoon. A mini-constellation of Arizona politicians and political junkies listened as the doctor said he was "very optimistic" about her recovery.

Tucson Mayor Bob Walkup took the podium. Somebody asked if he was crying. He responded that tears represented "a decent emotion."

Republican Rep. Jeff Flake drove down from Phoenix. He said he "couldn't stay away." He, too, was visibly shaken. "She's a friend," he said.

I asked about the predictable links people will make between the ugly rhetoric so common in today's political discourse and the violence that ripped through Giffords' head. "Whenever people try to make that connection, it's often premature," he said.

At a news conference that evening, Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dupnik also showed visible emotion. He made the link that Flake thought might be premature. The "vitriol" so common in political debate these days, "may be free speech," Dupnik said, "but it is not without consequences." An echo of what Giffords herself said before the election.

The debate over the consequences of ugly rhetoric began long before the victims fell Saturday. It requires winners and losers. As Tucson processes the very personal pain of what happened to Gabrielle Giffords and others on a beautiful sunny Saturday, the state and the nation have a model of behavior that does not require blame. Republicans and Democrats - political friends and foes - came together to express compassion after Saturday's tragedy.

If those involved could hold that level of civility, we'd all be better off.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/viewpoints/articles/2011/01/09/20110109gabrielle-giffords-valdez.html#ixzz1AYABMVrU

theplatypus
01-09-2011, 11:36 AM
U.S. Rep. Gabrielle Giffords is able to communicate with doctors by following simple commands but is not able to speak, a doctor said today. Giffords remains in critical condition.

Well that's somewhat positive.

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 06:13 PM
Here we have some real American heroes. - mesa

Four people instrumental in disarming Arizona shooting suspect

by Laurie Merrill - Jan. 9, 2011 04:08 PM
The Arizona Republic

Three men and a woman were instrumental in disarming and tackling the man suspected of killing six and injuring 14 in Tucson during a political event for Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords, according to Pima County Sheriff Clarence Dubnik.

Dubnik identified the heroes as Patricia Maisch, Roger Salzgeber, Bill Badger and Joseph Zamudio.

According to Dubnik, Maisch was in the rear of a line of people waiting to take a photograph with Giffords, when the suspect began firing his semiautomatic weapon.

When the shooter tried load a fresh magazine into his Glock 9 mm gun, Maisch grabbed the bottom of it, preventing the magazine from being inserted, Dubnik said. (You go girl, well done! - mesa)

This pause in shooting allowed Salzgeber and Badger to tackle the suspect to the ground and hold him until deputies arrived, Dubnik said. (Good going guys! - mesa)

A fourth participant, Zamudio, restrained the suspect's legs, Dubnik said. (Well done sir! - mesa)

Initial information saying Maisch was injured was inaccurate, said Dubnik. She did not report having any injuries.

According to the Sheriff's Department, the timeline for the first response by law enforcement and medical personnel is as follows:

10:11:56 a.m. - First 911 call is received

10:15 a.m. - First deputy arrives on scene

10:16 a.m. - First medical personnel arrive on scene

Within one minute of the first deputy's arrival, the suspect was in custody and medical personnel began treating the injured.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/2011/01/09/20110109gabrielle-giffords-arizona-shooting-citizen-heroes.html#ixzz1AaQ6l4CN

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 06:16 PM
Pima Co. Sheriff Clarence Dupnik says Patricia Maisch (MAYSH) was waiting in line with her husband to get a photo with Giffords. When the shooting started, she ran up to the suspect and grabbed the empty magazine, then grabbed a full magazine as he was loading it into the gun.

Two men helped subdue the suspect — Roger Sulzgeber (SULZ-gay-ber), who was also in line, and Joseph Zimudie (Zah-MOO-die), who was at a nearby Walgreens and heard the shooting.

ricardisimo
01-09-2011, 07:54 PM
You go girl is right! Unbelievable. Kudos and many thanks to her!

mesaSteeler
01-09-2011, 08:17 PM
You go girl is right! Unbelievable. Kudos and many thanks to her!

Absolutely correct. This is "a story a good women would teach her daughter", to paraphrase the famous speech from Henry V.

ricardisimo
01-11-2011, 03:37 AM
He's some commentary from a guy with very little good to say about Democrats, and yet as even he has to say "We're not standing on a level deck." He's referring to the protection Democratic officials receive (including Obama) on the one hand, and the Schutzstaffel-type lock-down Republicans got now and under Bush on the other. It's pretty obvious who the Praetorian Guard prefers. Sejanus is alive and well.

The now-scrubbed posting from the Tea Party candidate's website is jaw-dropping, but will of course lead to zero investigations, and zero remorse. More of the same to come.

My apologies for the formatting of the article. The guy obviously tossed this together in a rage.

January 10, 2011
Something Had to Give

How the Republicans' Chickens Came Home to Roost in Tucson

By ALEXANDER ****BURN
Six dead and Gabrielle Giffords, a 40-year old congresswoman hanging to life by a thread. In the wake of the lethal fusillade in Tucson Republicans came close to confessing to complicity by reason of incitement. Sarah Palin pulled her cross-hair go-shoot‘em target pics of Democrats from her site. Republicans in Congress suspended their opening political onslaught for a week. The right-wing commenators settled down to a steady chorus about Loughner being a lone nut, maybe even a secret Commie. He had Orwell’s Animal Farm and Ken Kesey’s One Flew over the Cuckoo’s Nest flagged on his site, next to Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf. A fusion nutball maybe.
In the relentless escalation in violent political rhetoric across the past couple of years, it’s been a pretty safe bet that sooner or later someone on the right would try to shoot a Democrat, the preferred target being President Barack Obama. But Obama doesn’t sit in a parking lot outside a Safeway supermarket in Tucson, Arizona, minus bodyguards, chatting to all and sundry.
Tucson is a schizoid town, pleasantly laid back but also with heavy enforcement under- and over-tones. The last time I spoke at a public meeting down there, a couple of years ago, the decidedly counter-cultural audience looked like a throwback to the late 70s in New York, which is probably where many in the crowd originally hailed from. The sheriff, Tom Dupnik, gave the right a influential whack across the chops in the very first hours after the shooting: "When you look at unbalanced people, how they respond to the vitriol that comes out of certain mouths about tearing down the government – the anger, the hatred, the bigotry that goes on in this country, is getting to be outrageous. And unfortunately, Arizona, I think, has become the capital. We have become the mecca for prejudice and bigotry." It’s an informal place, which is why it was not surprising for the Rep Giffords to set up her table in a Safeway grocery store’s parking lot, chatting with locals. This is what she was doing on Saturday .So Jared Lougher, 22 with his newly purchased 9mm Glock with extended magazine, was able to stride up to within a yard of the congresswoman and shoot her in the head, then spray the small area with an extended salvo.
With this 20-second fusillade Loughner killed U.S. District Judge John Roll,63; Dorothy Murray, 76; Dorwin Stoddard, 76, Phyllis Scheck, 79; Gabriel Zimmerman, 30 and Christina Green, 9. Zimmerman was Gifford’s director of community outreach and had helped organize the event. Christina Green, born on September 11, 2001, was taken along to see Giffords by a relative , because the 9-year old was interested in public affairs. Federal judge Roll had just dropped by to say hello to Giffords, who shared his liberal opposition to Arizona’s fierce stance on illegal immigrants.
You can date the moment Republicans and Tea Partiers reckoned heavy talk about guns was okay, a sure headline grabber and vote puller with the right wing base, from the coverage of a man in New Hampshire last August with a pistol strapped to his leg who stood outside an event where Obama was promoting his health care bill. He carried a sign saying , "It Is Time to Water the Tree of Liberty,” a reference to a Thomas Jefferson quote (http://www.quotedb.com/quotes/2074): "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
Open carriage of handguns is legal in New Hampshire, and the man was standing on the private property of a nearby church that had no problem with an armed fellow hanging around. A few days later a black man stood outside Arizona’s Phoenix Convention Center where President Barack Obama was speaking, with an AR-15 rifle slung over his shoulder and a pistol on his belt. Like New Hampshire, Arizona is an "open-carry" state, which means anyone legally allowed to have a firearm can carry it in public, so long as it's visible. The Secret Service said the man would not have been allowed to take the weapon into the hall where Obama was speaking.
We’re not standing on a level deck here. When George Bush was president cops would arrest protesters just carrying signs by the side of the road along which the president was scheduled to drive. A guy with a rifle or a side arm would have been behind bars in ten seconds, in New Hampshire or Arizona or anywhere else.
Sarah Palin played to her base all through the last four months of 2010 with website pictures of select Democratic candidates' districts--where there was a Tea Party challenger--with cross hair gun sights over them. Giffords got this treatment and stated publicly that Palin should know this sort of rhetoric could have consequences. Only after the shooting, Palin pulled the image from her site, just after TLC cancelled her Alaska show and will not be bringing it back for a second season. The cancellation didn’t anything to do with the shooting in Tucson. The show was fairly solid in the ratings at 3.2 million viewers and it seems TLC’s worry was that if Palin runs for the Republican presidential nomination, they’d have to give her opponents equal access time.
But will Palin now be pilloried as Loughner’s motivator? She’ll certainly get flak, but it will be from people who loathe her anyway. Her base will construe her as a martyr to the commie conspiracy led by Obama and will turn out for her in even greater numbers. They’ll quote Jefferson even more fervently: “And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure.”
“Don’t retreat, reload” was one of Palin’s lines to her supporters when one of her Tea Party picks was whacked in the polling booth in November. Other Tea Party maenads had their own punchy lines. Michele Bachmann, a Republican rep from Minnesota, truly over the top and now locked up by nervous Republican leaders in the House Intelligence Committee, where by definition she has to keep her mouth shut, has been in the habit of saying, "I want citizens armed and dangerous.” Tea Partier Sharon Angle, who nearly defeated Senate Majority leader Harry Reid last November in Nevada, liked to invoke the possibility of "2nd Amendment remedies".Conservative Florida radio host Joyce Kaufman, designated staff director of a new elected Florida congressman, quit her job after two days in Washington when a video clip surfaced displaying her exclaiming at a political rally last July 4, "If ballots don't work, bullets will.”
Support for Obama’s health case bill and opposition to Arizona’s new anti-illegal immigrant law have been Gifford’s liberal political features and doubtless what got her Tucson office vandalized during her recent successful election bid for a third term. Arizona’s Rep Raul Grijalva also got threats. Giffords narrowly beat a Tea Party opponent, Jesse Kelly. She’s been a blue dog Democrat – meaning that this former Republican remained fairly conservative. Giffords has supported gun rights and her most passionate concern has been the deficit – a core Republican and Tea Party obsession. She voted against Nancy Pelosi’s reelection as the Democrats’ leader in the House. She’s Jewish, which has been offered as a possible reason Loughner targeted her.
The shock jock right is now trying to argue that Loughner is somehow a commie, It won’t wash. He was a gold bug, tormented by the shriveling status of the dollar as America’s fiat currency. This is standard on the right-wing menu. (More interesting is his charge that the American government was trying to control the citizenry through grammar, an accusation that a member of the Marxist Frankfurt school would argue as having some merit, though I doubt Loughner is versed in Adorno or Marcuse.) He was sufficiently unstable to be kicked out by his school, which alluded to disturbing posts on his site. His fellow students rightly thought he was a loose cannon that might well explode. He wasn’t on any law enforcement computer in terms that prevented him from buying his Glock.
He was whacked out and delusional, seemingly incapable of separating reality from rhetoric and fantasy, which one social psychologist said over the weekend to be the mental state of about 1 in every 12 Americans – a low-ball number in my opinion. After arrest he did remember enough of the Bill of Rights to insist on his Fifth Amendment privilege to remain silent and not to incriminate himself. The swelling idiom of violence no doubt fired him up. In the recent election campaign Arizona’s District 26 House candidate Terri Proud posed with a group of women holding firearms.Here’s an ad on the Pima County Republican website (now scrubbed), placed by Giffords’ opponent, Kelly, in the recent election.
http://www.counterpunch.org/kellyad.gif

Giffords clings to life. In deference to her family – her husband, Mark Kelly, is an astronaut, scheduled to command the last shuttle mission this spring – surgeons will not describe the exact path of the bullet through Giffords’ brain. About 1.7 million people in the United States suffer traumatic brain injuries every year, with about 20 percent of them caused by violence, including gunshots. About 52,000 people die as a result of their injuries and about 275,000 are hospitalized.. There’ll be emotional onslaughts on the 2cnd Amendment, but zero chance of any change in the nation’s gun laws, which presently support some 200 million firearms in the hands of the citizenry, with some 50 million families with one gun or more on the premises. I doubt the rhetoric will stay subdued for long.

urgle burgle
01-11-2011, 12:45 PM
January 10, 2011
Something Had to Give

How the Republicans' Chickens Came Home to Roost in Tucson

By ALEXANDER ****BURN

Giffords clings to life. In deference to her family – her husband, Mark Kelly, is an astronaut, scheduled to command the last shuttle mission this spring – surgeons will not describe the exact path of the bullet through Giffords’ brain. About 1.7 million people in the United States suffer traumatic brain injuries every year, with about 20 percent of them caused by violence, including gunshots. About 52,000 people die as a result of their injuries and about 275,000 are hospitalized.. There’ll be emotional onslaughts on the 2cnd Amendment, but zero chance of any change in the nation’s gun laws, which presently support some 200 million firearms in the hands of the citizenry, with some 50 million families with one gun or more on the premises. I doubt the rhetoric will stay subdued for long.

and what would you propose in changes to our gun laws, to have avoided this?

ricardisimo
01-11-2011, 03:09 PM
and what would you propose in changes to our gun laws, to have avoided this?
What? You mean if I were king of the world? I'm not sure what that has to do with the article, which had more to do with where so-called political dialogue has gone in this country, as well as a structural double-standard for "liberals" versus "conservatives".

I'm sure you know me well enough by now to be able to predict my answer, though: greatly restrict gun production, distribution, ownership and use. I would model it upon the laws and systems they use in brutal dictatorships like Japan, Germany and the UK.

Of course, you may feel (as this fellow in Arizona evidently did) that from time to time the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants, democratically-elected officials, and nine-year-olds. I wouldn't know what to tell you, except that if killing someone is important enough to you, you should find a more creative way to do it than just spraying a crowd with semi-automatic fire.

MACH1
01-11-2011, 03:35 PM
Maybe we could do what Mexico does. They have ONE gun store controlled by the army.

No wonder their citizens are out gunned.

ricardisimo
01-11-2011, 03:55 PM
Maybe we could do what Mexico does. They have ONE gun store controlled by the army.

No wonder their citizens are out gunned.
Maybe Mexico could do what we do, and bribe our officials to use our own troops to launch all-out wars against our own citizens so as to look serious in the War on Drugs. Works for us, might work for them.

Atlanta Dan
01-11-2011, 04:01 PM
You can always count on Rush Limbaugh to provide a reasoned analysis of the situation and calm everything down:banging:

You see this guy's mug shot? I mean, this is the mug shot of all mug shots. This guy's getting exactly what he's wanted: Attention out the wazoo. And stop and think of this: What Mr. Loughner knows is that he has the full support of a major political party in this country

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_011111/content/01125106.guest.html

It must be true if Rush says it - anyone seen the memo where the Democrats endorsed Loughner?

The fact that former radio DJ Rush (aka Jeff Christie of Pittsburgh's WIXZ 1360 AM for the old folks among us) is a Steeler fan is ... troubling

theplatypus
01-11-2011, 04:02 PM
I was just thinking how nice this board had become without the political bs fostered by the old regime. Please don't let this place go back to that.

urgle burgle
01-11-2011, 04:28 PM
What? You mean if I were king of the world? I'm not sure what that has to do with the article, which had more to do with where so-called political dialogue has gone in this country, as well as a structural double-standard for "liberals" versus "conservatives".

I'm sure you know me well enough by now to be able to predict my answer, though: greatly restrict gun production, distribution, ownership and use. I would model it upon the laws and systems they use in brutal dictatorships like Japan, Germany and the UK.

Of course, you may feel (as this fellow in Arizona evidently did) that from time to time the Tree of Liberty must be watered with the blood of tyrants, democratically-elected officials, and nine-year-olds. I wouldn't know what to tell you, except that if killing someone is important enough to you, you should find a more creative way to do it than just spraying a crowd with semi-automatic fire.

ok. are we in a bad mood today ric? yes, i know you decently well, and was only curious about what your answer would be. i had a general idea of what you would propose but usually choose not to jump the gun. is that still ok to say? i would think that you would also know me well enough in our past dialogues that i am reasonable, and, no, i don't want to go Jeffersonian quote in this day and age. Only unless things went 30's Germany style. As an "anarchist" i am not sure why you are so afraid of free speech that has no ties to this tragedy. I will throw this out there though....i think that it would be a good and grand thing to treat our elected officials as if they were at a concert....rope it off, do checks on those that come in, and make sure NOONE has ANY weapons. we do it at concerts and other forums, prudent to balloon this to politicians, i think.

urgle burgle
01-11-2011, 04:35 PM
I was just thinking how nice this board had become without the political bs fostered by the old regime. Please don't let this place go back to that.

wheres the fun in that...

Atlanta Dan
01-11-2011, 05:15 PM
I was just thinking how nice this board had become without the political bs fostered by the old regime. Please don't let this place go back to that.

If posters start getting banned for not adhering to a party line then you can start to worry - until then assume censorship will not return

ricardisimo
01-11-2011, 05:24 PM
I was just thinking how nice this board had become without the political bs fostered by the old regime. Please don't let this place go back to that.
Tony and Mom: I think you should ban platy for thinking that we should ban people who would not ban other people for getting politically-minded on these boards... or something like that.

ricardisimo
01-11-2011, 05:28 PM
ok. are we in a bad mood today ric? yes, i know you decently well, and was only curious about what your answer would be. i had a general idea of what you would propose but usually choose not to jump the gun. is that still ok to say? i would think that you would also know me well enough in our past dialogues that i am reasonable, and, no, i don't want to go Jeffersonian quote in this day and age. Only unless things went 30's Germany style. As an "anarchist" i am not sure why you are so afraid of free speech that has no ties to this tragedy. I will throw this out there though....i think that it would be a good and grand thing to treat our elected officials as if they were at a concert....rope it off, do checks on those that come in, and make sure NOONE has ANY weapons. we do it at concerts and other forums, prudent to balloon this to politicians, i think.
I'm in a fine mood, actually. Thanks for asking. And I'm not an "anarchist", I'm an anarchist. Not quite sure what insidious purpose you had intended for those quotation marks, but you can put them away.

I have no problem with freedom of speech. What angle am I missing here? Is gun ownership and use a form of speech? Is putting hits out on your political opponents free speech? If you are a politician who puts a hit out on an opponent, but can later make a semi-credible claim that you were just kidding (after the hit is completed, of course), isn't it alright then?

MACH1
01-11-2011, 11:48 PM
"Don't let a good crisis go to waste."

Bernie Sanders Uses Tucson in Fundraising Pitch
January 11, 2011 4:09 P.M.
By Daniel Foster

Stephen Hayes at The Weekly Standard points to a fundraising letter sent out by Sen. Bernie Sanders, Democratic Socialist of Vermont, that uses the Tucson shootings in a pitch for political contributions to help fight off ”the Republican Party, big money corporate interests and right-wing organizations.”

What should be understood is that the violence, and threats of violence against Democrats in Arizona, was not limited to Gabrielle Giffords. Raul Grijalva, an old friend of mine and one of the most progressive members in the House, was forced to close his district office this summer when someone shot a bullet through his office window. Another Democratic elected official in Arizona, recently defeated Congressman Harry Mitchell, suspended town meetings in his district because of the threatening phone calls that he received (Mitchell was also in the cross-hairs on the Palin map). And Judge John Roll, who was shot to death at the Giffords event, had received numerous threatening calls and death threats in 2009.


http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/256908/bernie-sanders-uses-tucson-fundraising-pitch-daniel-foster

Anyone care to donate some blood money, Ric?

ricardisimo
01-12-2011, 07:44 AM
The Socialists in the 1930s would point out in their campaign speeches that there was a reason the cops were busting their heads, namely that the fat cat factory owners didn't like them. That was no lie.

Mind you, despite the party name, Bernie Sanders is no socialist. That's the crime there.

lionslicer
01-12-2011, 10:17 AM
Okay so why are people saying the Shooter is some crazy conservative because he listens to conservative talk radio?
Why has the left become so desperate that they are using a shooting to help their agenda?

I hate politics, we should run the government and make Ronald Reagan president again.

CaliStillersFan
01-12-2011, 10:37 AM
The Socialists in the 1930s would point out in their campaign speeches that there was a reason the cops were busting their heads, namely that the fat cat factory owners didn't like them. That was no lie.

Mind you, despite the party name, Bernie Sanders is no socialist. That's the crime there.

Don't you love how when someone thinks outside of our failed 2 party system, you're labeled a commie, a socialist, a marxist or whatever they can to belittle your message. I'm not sure what would be harder, convincing people that there is no God or convincing them that there is NO DIFFERENCE between republicans and democrats except the hateful speech those use to keep us divided. Nothing worse when the common man does the rich man's bidding, and doesn't even realize that they are being used.

MACH1
01-12-2011, 12:33 PM
Okay so why are people saying the Shooter is some crazy conservative because he listens to conservative talk radio?
Why has the left become so desperate that they are using a shooting to help their agenda?

I hate politics, we should run the government and make Ronald Reagan president again.

Because everything else they have done either is/was an epic failure.

ricardisimo
01-12-2011, 12:46 PM
Okay so why are people saying the Shooter is some crazy conservative because he listens to conservative talk radio?
Why has the left become so desperate that they are using a shooting to help their agenda?

I hate politics, we should run the government and make Ronald Reagan president again.
They are calling him a crazy conservative because he's crazy, and because "conservative" is the word we use in this culture to describe radicals who believe the gold standard is a real standard, that unregulated guns equate to a well regulated militia, that record budgets like Bush's and Reagan's are the result of "smaller government", and who want to get rid of public schools, Social Security, Medicare, etc.

Atlanta Dan
01-12-2011, 01:49 PM
Okay so why are people saying the Shooter is some crazy conservative because he listens to conservative talk radio?

The same reason Rush Limbaugh is claiming Loughner has the "full support" of the Democrats - to try and score cheap political points

lionslicer
01-12-2011, 03:16 PM
They are calling him a crazy conservative because he's crazy, and because "conservative" is the word we use in this culture to describe radicals who believe the gold standard is a real standard, that unregulated guns equate to a well regulated militia, that record budgets like Bush's and Reagan's are the result of "smaller government", and who want to get rid of public schools, Social Security, Medicare, etc.

Both side's are nuts... Whether he was a conservative or republican or whatever, really isn't what peope on the left are attacking. They got some story that he listened to conservative talk radio like Rush and Hannity a couple times so he's a crazy conservative.

The problem is he didn't, he was just a crazy guy from Arizona. The cheap political shots piss me off from either side.

ricardisimo
01-12-2011, 04:36 PM
Both side's are nuts... Whether he was a conservative or republican or whatever, really isn't what peope on the left are attacking. They got some story that he listened to conservative talk radio like Rush and Hannity a couple times so he's a crazy conservative.

The problem is he didn't, he was just a crazy guy from Arizona. The cheap political shots piss me off from either side.
I'm not going to speak for "the Left", but it's pretty clear to me that they're calling him crazy because he's... well, crazy. Do you have some evidence to the contrary? As to his leanings, my understanding is that he composed some form of video manifesto about the gold standard and immigration, which are hardly lefty touchstones.

It doesn't matter. The long and the short of it is that his political beliefs don't really matter at all. He's crazy, and like many crazy people, he's strongly susceptible to certain types of persuasion, mainly the more base types which one would associate with the id or the Hulk; smashing, killing, fukking, etc. The question you should be asking yourself is:
I wonder how many politicos I can find on the "Left" in this country - if I were to spend several weeks or months at the library and on Google - who asked their constituents to kill their political opponents. That can be in "jest", metaphorically speaking, in the form of off-hand comments about "Second Amendment remedies" to electoral losses, fake advertisements on campaign websites, etc.

There's your homework. Find me one.

MasterOfPuppets
01-12-2011, 04:42 PM
Don't you love how when someone thinks outside of our failed 2 party system, you're labeled a commie, a socialist, a marxist or whatever they can to belittle your message. I'm not sure what would be harder, convincing people that there is no God or convincing them that there is NO DIFFERENCE between republicans and democrats except the hateful speech those use to keep us divided. Nothing worse when the common man does the rich man's bidding, and doesn't even realize that they are being used.
excellent post . did you watch the video's i posted ?

ricardisimo
01-12-2011, 05:24 PM
Classic... I'm seeing editorials at conservative news outlets about demonizing the mentally ill for political gain. Wow. Never thought I'd see the day. The chickens really have come home to roost.

Atlanta Dan
01-12-2011, 06:05 PM
Both side's are nuts... Whether he was a conservative or republican or whatever, really isn't what peope on the left are attacking. They got some story that he listened to conservative talk radio like Rush and Hannity a couple times so he's a crazy conservative.

The problem is he didn't, he was just a crazy guy from Arizona. The cheap political shots piss me off from either side.

I have not read anyone credible who claims Loughner was a regular Rush or Hannity listener - (Drudge is linking to anything that claims Loughner was apolitical, which indicates to me how spooked the right wing is that someone has finally gone off and tried to kill an elected Democrat official) This is a very insightful observation regarding how the lunatic fringe of any political movement can easily avoid anything other than self-reinforcing sources of information

What’s not transient, unfortunately, is the technological trend that drives much of this. It isn’t just that people can now build a cocoon of cable channels and Web sites that insulates them from inconvenient facts. It’s also that this cocoon insulates them from other Americans — including the groups of Americans who, inside the cocoon, are being depicted as evil aliens. It’s easy to buy into the demonization of people you never communicate with, and whose views you never see depicted by anyone other than their adversaries.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/01/11/before-hatred-comes-fear/?hp

Do not underestimate the possibility of this pathology impacting sports - I dread the day some lunatic attempts to kill a player from a team he (shooters usually are male) "hates"

lionslicer
01-12-2011, 06:23 PM
I'm not going to speak for "the Left", but it's pretty clear to me that they're calling him crazy because he's... well, crazy. Do you have some evidence to the contrary? As to his leanings, my understanding is that he composed some form of video manifesto about the gold standard and immigration, which are hardly lefty touchstones.

It doesn't matter. The long and the short of it is that his political beliefs don't really matter at all. He's crazy, and like many crazy people, he's strongly susceptible to certain types of persuasion, mainly the more base types which one would associate with the id or the Hulk; smashing, killing, fukking, etc. The question you should be asking yourself is:
I wonder how many politicos I can find on the "Left" in this country - if I were to spend several weeks or months at the library and on Google - who asked their constituents to kill their political opponents. That can be in "jest", metaphorically speaking, in the form of off-hand comments about "Second Amendment remedies" to electoral losses, fake advertisements on campaign websites, etc.

There's your homework. Find me one.

I didn't say people were calling him crazy when he wasn't, he is. I'm saying why are people saying he had a crazy out break and shot people because he listens to conservative radio.

Thats my concern. Him being called crazy because he listened to Rush and Hannity or something. Its like the guy who shot Lennon because he read some stupid book.

ricardisimo
01-12-2011, 06:31 PM
Do not underestimate the possibility of this pathology impacting sports - I dread the day some lunatic attempts to kill a player from a team he (shooters usually are male) "hates"
It's already happened in sports, and a while ago.



http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2000/05/06/soccer_b000506.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andr%C3%A9s_Escobar
Here's one for Mom and Shea. (http://www.the6thsens.com/2010-articles/april/pensfankillswife414.html)
http://onehd.com.au/onehd/newsarticles/Football-Russia-orders-football-fan-murder-probe-after-protest-TX-PAR-HXX73.htm
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/24468147/


And I have to believe that the mob in the US has taken out more than a few boxers and jockeys who have let them down in some way. Is that "better" or worse than killing for ideology? :noidea:

theplatypus
01-12-2011, 06:33 PM
Ric you left off the guy who stabbed the tennis player.

ricardisimo
01-12-2011, 07:19 PM
Ric you left off the guy who stabbed the tennis player.
And the Tonya Harding/Nancy Kerrigan imbroglio.

SteelerEmpire
01-12-2011, 09:38 PM
Its gonna be interesting to find out (eventually) why this loon did what he did...

MasterOfPuppets
01-12-2011, 09:49 PM
Martial Law 9-11: Rise of the Police State

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4382151310886411718#

ricardisimo
01-13-2011, 12:25 AM
Its gonna be interesting to find out (eventually) why this loon did what he did...
He did what he did because he's crazy as a loon.

Wallace108
01-13-2011, 12:27 AM
He did what he did because he's crazy as a loon.

I haven't read this entire thread yet, but I think that just about sums it up. ^^^

CaliStillersFan
01-15-2011, 01:56 AM
excellent post . did you watch the video's i posted ?

I've seen everything Alex Jones has ever done, and 100's of hours worth of others. :)

Two others I suggest to watch are:

Money Masters - The History of the Federal Reserve
Apology of an Economic Hitman

Both should be on YouTube, they are excellent. The first one explains 100's of years of history of the "money changers" and how they control empires and how the Federal Reserve System came to be. The 2nd one is more current and explains how the World Bank and IMF dominates every country on the planet in our name, and what happens to them when they don't bend to the whims on WB/IMF.

BTW - Just cause this nutcase was talking about wanting our country back on the gold standard, doesn't make him a conservative. I believe that we should and I'm not a republican or a democrat. A sound monetary policy based on something tangible only makes sense to me. Much better than this fiat worthless paper we have now. There's reasons this countries economy was rock stable until 1971 when Nixon took us off the gold standard. Don't let this nutcases ideologies taint your views on the gold standard. It will be a hotly debated topic soon now that Dr. Paul is the chair of the House Finance Committee.

ricardisimo
01-15-2011, 03:21 AM
I think you mean Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Great book, indeed.

The gold standard seems to me a conservative banner, just as controlling inflation is a conservative cause. Let's be honest: there are no "Leftist" economic policies in place anywhere. Leftists are simply not allowed to decide economic policy. Ergo, any monetary standard is a conservative monetary standard.

My problem with the gold standard is that people confuse "material" with "real". There's nothing real about gold. It still requires a leap of faith. It only has value if you can convince a large number of people that it has value. If we're talking about a different commodity, like say milk, wheat or beer (see, I'm thinking about Wally and the other Halfway Housers) then yeah, you can say there's something real there.

Ideally, the system would recognize the ultimate source of all value in our society, which is work. You stabilize everything in the economy if you stabilize workers' wages. The minimum wage has to be a living wage, and it has to take quality-of-life issues into account, not just subsistence.

Lionslicer: I'm still waiting for the list of Left or liberal or even moderate politicians who jokingly or seriously talked about having their political opponents killed. I'm not trying to be a dick about it. I'm trying to make a point, namely that this guy's politics don't matter. He's just disturbed. Sarah Palin and Sharron Angle don't have that excuse (at least I don't think they do.)

CaliStillersFan
01-15-2011, 03:31 AM
I think you mean Confessions of an Economic Hitman. Great book, indeed.

The book is called Confessions, the documentary is called Apology. I'm a 70's kid we don't read books, although I'm sure it's great. :chuckle:

Steelboy84
01-19-2011, 08:02 PM
They are calling him a crazy conservative because he's crazy, and because "conservative" is the word we use in this culture to describe radicals who believe the gold standard is a real standard, that unregulated guns equate to a well regulated militia, that record budgets like Bush's and Reagan's are the result of "smaller government", and who want to get rid of public schools, Social Security, Medicare, etc.

this

ricardisimo
01-20-2011, 12:53 AM
Lionslicer: I'm still waiting for the list of Left or liberal or even moderate politicians who jokingly or seriously talked about having their political opponents killed...
* bump *

urgle burgle
02-03-2011, 01:47 PM
* bump *

is that implied death or actual threats? just curious.and, as everybody says, reciting poor behavior in the past does not condone others in the present nor future.

ricardisimo
02-03-2011, 02:18 PM
Like I said, it can even include bad jokes made by candidates to their constituents about having their opponents knocked off.

My point being that, although I have zero love for the Democratic Party, there is something particularly venomous about the right wing of the Republican Party as well as the Tea Partiers and their ilk. The combination of religious zealotry, firearm idolatry and corporate ideology make them a menace to themselves and others. Giffords was just the most noticeable victim.

Lionslicer (and others) appear to be claiming that this sort of homicidal rhetoric is just a function of party politics in the US. If so, he should be able to point me to just as many similar comments from Democrats, Greens, Socialists, Libertarians and even from moderate Republicans. I'm waiting for them.

urgle burgle
02-03-2011, 03:05 PM
Like I said, it can even include bad jokes made by candidates to their constituents about having their opponents knocked off.

My point being that, although I have zero love for the Democratic Party, there is something particularly venomous about the right wing of the Republican Party as well as the Tea Partiers and their ilk. The combination of religious zealotry, firearm idolatry and corporate ideology make them a menace to themselves and others. Giffords was just the most noticeable victim.

Lionslicer (and others) appear to be claiming that this sort of homicidal rhetoric is just a function of party politics in the US. If so, he should be able to point me to just as many similar comments from Democrats, Greens, Socialists, Libertarians and even from moderate Republicans. I'm waiting for them.

i guess the question is really what kind of rhetoric or speech we accept or will allow. you are asking for only politicians....whether you remember or not, accept it or not, i am an idependent. yes, i lean more right, conservative. however, i register idependent, and hate both parties.
do i like the "implied threats" of the idiot in NV, or others....no.
but, as this shows, the left is not without their ideology in their own sense.
http://feedblog.org/2006/10/08/john-kerry-threatens-to-kill-president-bush-on-bill-maher/

kerrey was the dem pres candidate. nuff said.

that was the only thing that jogged my memory. i can guarantee i could look up things about the left that either match the right, in implied or specific threats, or overcome them. is that really the point though? excuse stupid things for other stupid things?
of course this depends on what you believe to be leaders of parties, or movements, etc.

i could throw out just as many hyperbolic and ad hominem attacks as others do...
ohhhhh....woopedy doo! one may be just a bit nastier then the other.....yayayyyy!
that gets us somewhere. i could cite many things of the "left" that is just as bad or worse.....with their
"combination of religious zealotry, firearm idolatry and corporate ideology make them a menace to themselves and others"

same thing, same day. no real conversation happens. no answers and no compromise.

ricardisimo
02-03-2011, 06:01 PM
i guess the question is really what kind of rhetoric or speech we accept or will allow. you are asking for only politicians....whether you remember or not, accept it or not, i am an idependent. yes, i lean more right, conservative. however, i register idependent, and hate both parties.
do i like the "implied threats" of the idiot in NV, or others....no.
but, as this shows, the left is not without their ideology in their own sense.
http://feedblog.org/2006/10/08/john-kerry-threatens-to-kill-president-bush-on-bill-maher/

kerrey was the dem pres candidate. nuff said.

that was the only thing that jogged my memory. i can guarantee i could look up things about the left that either match the right, in implied or specific threats, or overcome them. is that really the point though? excuse stupid things for other stupid things?
of course this depends on what you believe to be leaders of parties, or movements, etc.

i could throw out just as many hyperbolic and ad hominem attacks as others do...
ohhhhh....woopedy doo! one may be just a bit nastier then the other.....yayayyyy!
that gets us somewhere. i could cite many things of the "left" that is just as bad or worse.....with their
"combination of religious zealotry, firearm idolatry and corporate ideology make them a menace to themselves and others"

same thing, same day. no real conversation happens. no answers and no compromise.
Very good. That's kind of, sort of one example, although he's saying he's going to do it himself, rather than asking his constituents to do it, which was precisely the point of all of the Palin sniper cross hairs and "bullets or ballots" talk. I think you're a little too dismissive when you say " i can guarantee i could look up things about the left that either match the right, in implied or specific threats, or overcome them." Please do look them up. I've tried and failed to come up with anything other than the Maher exchange, which, like I said, is not the same thing as asking your supporters to kill someone, but comes across as clumsy late night metaphor.

theplatypus
02-03-2011, 06:20 PM
Very good. That's kind of, sort of one example, although he's saying he's going to do it himself, rather than asking his constituents to do it, which was precisely the point of all of the Palin sniper cross hairs and "bullets or ballots" talk. I think you're a little too dismissive when you say " i can guarantee i could look up things about the left that either match the right, in implied or specific threats, or overcome them." Please do look them up. I've tried and failed to come up with anything other than the Maher exchange, which, like I said, is not the same thing as asking your supporters to kill someone, but comes across as clumsy late night metaphor.


He also didn't say I want to, I'm going to, or would someone,he said"I could have".