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steelax04
01-12-2011, 12:05 PM
(I'm not an EPSN insider, so I can't get the whole article...)
Updated: January 11, 2011, 5:57 PM ETWhy Big Ben measures up to Brady
The Pittsburgh quarterback has excelled in a more explosive offenseEmail By KC Joyner
ESPN Insider
Archive

By the end of the 1977 NFL season, Pittsburgh Steelers star Terry Bradshaw could have had every reason in the world to feel like the world's most overlooked quarterback.

Over the previous six years, he had posted a stellar 49-17 regular-season record and an equally impressive 8-4 postseason mark. Two of those playoff wins were Super Bowl victories and in both of those contests he threw a fourth-quarter touchdown pass that helped seal the win for the Steelers.

Despite this abundance of success, Bradshaw still seemingly had not convinced the world he was among the best at his position. Proof of this can be found in the 1977 All-Pro and Pro Bowl voting.

Bradshaw had guided his team to a 9-5 record and the AFC Central Division title and yet was beaten out for those postseason honors not just by the likes of Bob Griese and Roger Staubach (the consensus choices as the top quarterbacks of that season), but also by lesser talents such as Pat Haden and Jim Hart.

Near the end of the 2010 season, Ben Roethlisberger could be in exactly the same kind of overlooked boat as his Black and Gold predecessor. Like Bradshaw, he has a superb regular-season record (69-29, a .704 win percentage that is third-best of any quarterback since 1970) and a dominant 8-2 postseason mark that includes two Super Bowl titles.


Also like Bradshaw, Roethlisberger is coming off a campaign where his team went 9-3 with him under center and won a hard-fought division title. Still, it wasn't enough for him to be named one of the six quarterbacks going to the Pro Bowl.

While that certainly doesn't seem fair on its face, what makes it even more unjust is that a closer look at the game tape and metrics shows that Big Ben was just as good this season as AFC Pro Bowl starter -- and all but certain 2010 NFL MVP -- Tom Brady.



http://insider.espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2010/insider/columns/story?columnist=joyner_kc&id=6011130&action=upsell&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnfl %2fplayoffs%2f2010%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fc olumnist%3djoyner_kc%26id%3d6011130

OX1947
01-12-2011, 12:26 PM
Big Ben has a chance to measure up to a T with Brady in the next two weeks. If he beats the Ravens, and then goes into Gillette and beats NE and wins the Super Bowl, Big Ben will be on par 100%.

plenewken
01-12-2011, 12:36 PM
Here we go again! By the way, the article talks about Bradshaw and not Brady.

Here is how Ben measured up to Brady during the 2010 regular season.

Brady (16 games)
QB rating: 111.0
Pct completion: 65.9%
TDs passing: 36
TD rushing: 1
INT: 4
Sacks: 25
Fumbles lost: 1

Ben: (12 games)
QB rating: 97.0
Pct completion: 61.7%
TDs passing: 17
TDs rushing: 2
INT: 5
Sacks: 32
Fumbles lost: 3

No comment ................

tanda10506
01-12-2011, 12:59 PM
Here we go again! By the way, the article talks about Bradshaw and not Brady.

Here is how Ben measured up to Brady during the 2010 regular season.

Brady (16 games)
QB rating: 111.0
Pct completion: 65.9%
TDs passing: 36
TD rushing: 1
INT: 4
Sacks: 25
Fumbles lost: 1

Ben: (12 games)
QB rating: 97.0
Pct completion: 61.7%
TDs passing: 17
TDs rushing: 2
INT: 5
Sacks: 32
Fumbles lost: 3

No comment ................

Tom Brady is a GREAT decision maker with a pretty good arm (not the best). Probably is #1 right now. Stats aside, he didn't "make" a single play that I saw this year. Can't recall ever seeing him "make" a play. Throwing an accurate pass to an open or somewhat open reciever is the job of every QB.

saveus1011
01-12-2011, 01:03 PM
How about we focus on the task at hand, which is the Ravens?

stairway27
01-12-2011, 01:12 PM
How about we focus on the task at hand, which is the Ravens?

Not trying to be a dick or anything, but why do WE need to focus on anything? What difference does it make if WE (a bunch of people on a message board) talk about something other than the game this weekend? If you hear a player from the Steelers talking about Ben vs Brady, then I could see where this comment applies. WE don't play the games...

MikeHaullace
01-12-2011, 01:22 PM
Since bobby jr. has been banned, I'll go ahead and fill-in for him :

*ahem*

Roethlisberger is a mediocre QB with an above-average defense. He isn't half as talented as Joe Flacco though.

plenewken
01-12-2011, 01:23 PM
Tom Brady is a GREAT decision maker with a pretty good arm (not the best). Probably is #1 right now. Stats aside, he didn't "make" a single play that I saw this year. Can't recall ever seeing him "make" a play. Throwing an accurate pass to an open or somewhat open reciever is the job of every QB.

Throwing an accurate pass is the job of every QB, that's true, but some do it better than others, hence their better stats, higher ranking and higher salary.

As for Brady not making plays, I'm not sure I understand what it means. Do you have examples of plays that Brady can't make? Looking at his numbers, he seems to make a shitload of plays no? Granted he's more a pocket passer than Ben but in the pocket, the guy is deadly.

plenewken
01-12-2011, 01:28 PM
Not trying to be a dick or anything, but why do WE need to focus on anything? What difference does it make if WE (a bunch of people on a message board) talk about something other than the game this weekend? If you hear a player from the Steelers talking about Ben vs Brady, then I could see where this comment applies. WE don't play the games...

So true. Like we have any say or influence on the Steelers and how they're gonna play Saturday. <sigh>

OX1947
01-12-2011, 01:36 PM
Numbers, MVPs, throwing percentages do not mean dick in the NFL. Winning Super Bowl's does. And its only getting worse. Look at Manning, he has everything in a career a QB can have, he has a Super Bowl AND an MVP super bowl and he is still looked at as a choker. Winning multiple Super bowl's is all football cares about as a QB.

plenewken
01-12-2011, 01:41 PM
Big Ben has a chance to measure up to a T with Brady in the next two weeks. If he beats the Ravens, and then goes into Gillette and beats NE and wins the Super Bowl, Big Ben will be on par 100%.

The number of Superbowl wins is not a good indication of a particular player's dominance. Football is a team sport. It's not like golf or tennis or boxing.
If we win the SB this year, are you gonna tell me that Starks is the best right tackle in the League because he will have 3 rings?

LVSteelersfan
01-12-2011, 02:03 PM
Past Super Bowl winning quarterbacks who must be great because they won Super Bowls. Trent Dilfer, Jim Plunkett, Joe Namath, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostettler, Brad Johnson. Yep, those are your murderer's row of Super Bowl winning QBs. Winning Super Bowls DOES NOT make you a great QB. How many of Brady's Super Bowls were won by his kicker?

SteelKnight
01-12-2011, 02:19 PM
Throwing an accurate pass is the job of every QB, that's true, but some do it better than others, hence their better stats, higher ranking and higher salary.

As for Brady not making plays, I'm not sure I understand what it means. Do you have examples of plays that Brady can't make? Looking at his numbers, he seems to make a shitload of plays no? Granted he's more a pocket passer than Ben but in the pocket, the guy is deadly.

I agree. I think it only makes us look weak to make up things like Brady sucks and Ray Lewis is overrated. They are 2 excellent players.

To say Brady doesn't make plays is laughable. It's that he makes so many plays it is hard to count.

Ben is good. He is in the second tier right after the big 3 (Brady, Brees, Manning).

The QBs in Ben's tier are Ben, Rodgers, Rivers, and Vick. Ben is the most clutch QB in his tier. That's good enough. I'm happy with that. There is no one I'd rather have other than Brady when it comes to clutch.

MikeHaullace
01-12-2011, 02:45 PM
Ben is the most clutch QB in his tier. That's good enough. I'm happy with that. There is no one I'd rather have other than Brady when it comes to clutch.

If I need my team to drive down field and get a game winning FG, I put in Brady.

If I need my team to drive down field and get a game winning TD, I put in Ben.

MDSteel15
01-12-2011, 02:53 PM
Past Super Bowl winning quarterbacks who must be great because they won Super Bowls. Trent Dilfer, Jim Plunkett, Joe Namath, Jim McMahon, Doug Williams, Mark Rypien, Jeff Hostettler, Brad Johnson. Yep, those are your murderer's row of Super Bowl winning QBs. Winning Super Bowls DOES NOT make you a great QB. How many of Brady's Super Bowls were won by his kicker?

Answer: ALL OF THEM

Neil-Still-Rules-14
01-12-2011, 03:13 PM
Not trying to be a dick or anything, but why do WE need to focus on anything? What difference does it make if WE (a bunch of people on a message board) talk about something other than the game this weekend? If you hear a player from the Steelers talking about Ben vs Brady, then I could see where this comment applies. WE don't play the games...

Oh my God thank you so much.

pete74
01-12-2011, 03:18 PM
how someone can say Brady dosnt make plays is beyond me. i dont like him but thats only because he is so damn good and makes a ton of plays every week.

thumper
01-12-2011, 03:20 PM
Big Ben has a chance to measure up to a T with Brady in the next two weeks. If he beats the Ravens, and then goes into Gillette and beats NE and wins the Super Bowl, Big Ben will be on par 100%.

If my auntie had bullocks she'd be me uncle. Odds
are not in favor of this happening. Belichick and Brady
are just too dang good. Ben throws ints in the redzone
too often and Brady simply doesn't. Belichick is a master
of scheming and our coaching staff is not. It's not impossible
but it is unlikely we find a way to win in NE.

thumper
01-12-2011, 03:22 PM
how someone can say Brady dosnt make plays is beyond me. i dont like him but thats only because he is so damn good and makes a ton of plays every week.

Spot on. I actually don't even dislike him; only when he is beating the
Steelers. I respect top quality, and he is. Excellence is to be admired,
not hated. But that's just me; most of my Steeler friends do not agree.
Most hate him and do not agree with me.

steeltheone
01-12-2011, 03:29 PM
I agree. I think it only makes us look weak to make up things like Brady sucks and Ray Lewis is overrated. They are 2 excellent players.

To say Brady doesn't make plays is laughable. It's that he makes so many plays it is hard to count.

Ben is good. He is in the second tier right after the big 3 (Brady, Brees, Manning).

The QBs in Ben's tier are Ben, Rodgers, Rivers, and Vick. Ben is the most clutch QB in his tier. That's good enough. I'm happy with that. There is no one I'd rather have other than Brady when it comes to clutch.

How do you put Vick in BR7's tier?

steeltheone
01-12-2011, 03:30 PM
how someone can say Brady dosnt make plays is beyond me. i dont like him but thats only because he is so damn good and makes a ton of plays every week.

Finally a true football fan and not just a homer. Brady is HOF and a class act!

grward
01-12-2011, 03:37 PM
I agree. I think it only makes us look weak to make up things like Brady sucks and Ray Lewis is overrated. They are 2 excellent players.

To say Brady doesn't make plays is laughable. It's that he makes so many plays it is hard to count.

Ben is good. He is in the second tier right after the big 3 (Brady, Brees, Manning).

The QBs in Ben's tier are Ben, Rodgers, Rivers, and Vick. Ben is the most clutch QB in his tier. That's good enough. I'm happy with that. There is no one I'd rather have other than Brady when it comes to clutch.

I think the point of the article is that Ben deserves to be in the pro bowl, not that he's BETTER than Gay-dy like all the posters are debating. I quoted this post b/c of the QB's you mentioned, four are AFC but six are voted to the pro bowl. Thus, Ben being shunned.

BTW, the title to the article has nothing to do with the contents except for the last sentence ... very misleading.

plenewken
01-12-2011, 03:54 PM
Some guys here lose all credibility when they post things like Brady can't make a play, stats don't mean squat, only the number of SBs counts, yadda, yadda, yadda.

You can be a Steelers fan, there's nothing wrong with that, but don't lose your common sense in the process. I'm a fan too, probably not as fanatic and biased as some of you are, but I can see the difference between a QB like Manning or Brees and a Steelers QB like Batch, even if Batch has 1 more ring than the others.

SteelKnight
01-12-2011, 03:55 PM
how someone can say Brady dosnt make plays is beyond me. i dont like him but thats only because he is so damn good and makes a ton of plays every week.

I agree. That's why I don't like him football wise. Some people take it to a new level. Some people hate him in real life. They are just nuts. I remember before the whole Ben incident, I was on another board and they kept making a huge deal that Brady wanted to press charges against a thief who stole some pottery items. Brady had no idea he had health issues and was just trying to do the right thing but in these sickos minds the thief was a saint (he was white) and Brady was the evil rich guy. I guess Ben's story probably shut them up.

It's just a sport. So I'll hate him on the field but in real life I wish him well.

Go Steelers!

alittlejazzbird
01-12-2011, 03:55 PM
Can anyone post the full article? It's an ESPN Insider article, so non-members are only seeing the first few paragraphs - that's why it appears to be about Terry Bradshaw. If there are any Insider members on this board, a full post would be appreciated.

saveus1011
01-12-2011, 03:59 PM
Not trying to be a dick or anything, but why do WE need to focus on anything? What difference does it make if WE (a bunch of people on a message board) talk about something other than the game this weekend? If you hear a player from the Steelers talking about Ben vs Brady, then I could see where this comment applies. WE don't play the games...

So true. Like we have any say or influence on the Steelers and how they're gonna play Saturday. <sigh>

Maybe I just take this stuff too seriously.

SteelKnight
01-12-2011, 07:28 PM
I think the point of the article is that Ben deserves to be in the pro bowl, not that he's BETTER than Gay-dy like all the posters are debating. I quoted this post b/c of the QB's you mentioned, four are AFC but six are voted to the pro bowl. Thus, Ben being shunned.

BTW, the title to the article has nothing to do with the contents except for the last sentence ... very misleading.

Yeah...AFC is tough. You have to have a more productive year than Brady, Manning and Rivers to make it in out-right (they only take 3 QBs). That's not easy year in and year out. Really you are just competing with Rivers since Brady and Manning would have to implode not to make it. If Ben had more TDs then he would be up for discussion. Maybe if he had 24 (2 per game) we could talk.

OX1947
01-12-2011, 07:38 PM
The number of Superbowl wins is not a good indication of a particular player's dominance. Football is a team sport. It's not like golf or tennis or boxing.
If we win the SB this year, are you gonna tell me that Starks is the best right tackle in the League because he will have 3 rings?

Yes.

Superbowl
01-12-2011, 07:45 PM
I love Ben and thought he should have been picked higher in the draft but he's no Brady.
Ben is a trooper as the broken nose attests too and if you don't take him down he will find his receiver. But he's none of what makes Brady great and he doesn't need to be. This is a team sport and Ben works perfectly with his team and he can just be compared to himself having two SB rings. Played bad in one but bottom line He won with the team.

When you win Two SB you're doing something right. Terry Bradshaw wasn't the best but he was a player and he has 4 SBs and the players/teammates loved him. yet he was no brady either. Doesn't need to be. Pretty awesome just being themselves.

steelax04
01-12-2011, 08:37 PM
Can anyone post the full article? It's an ESPN Insider article, so non-members are only seeing the first few paragraphs - that's why it appears to be about Terry Bradshaw. If there are any Insider members on this board, a full post would be appreciated.

Thank you... I even prefaced the OP with that, but some people have zero reading comprehension and want to be douchebags and say "by the way, this has nothing to with Ben, it's an article about Bradshaw."

RavensFan20
01-12-2011, 08:59 PM
I would agree that Ben is no place near Brady or Manning.

Brady is probably going to top Manning after this season but it will prob flip again after next season just like last year when Manning played better.

Ben is with Phillip Rivers but has a better supporting cast on both sides of the ball so he does not do as much.

He will never have the numbers that Manning or Brady has because Ben does not play that way.

He wins games when he has to but most of the time the D and running game does it for him.

Also Ben is 29 in March and Manning/Brady will be 35

SteelKnight
01-12-2011, 09:30 PM
I would agree that Ben is no place near Brady or Manning.

Brady is probably going to top Manning after this season but it will prob flip again after next season just like last year when Manning played better.

Ben is with Phillip Rivers but has a better supporting cast on both sides of the ball so he does not do as much.

He will never have the numbers that Manning or Brady has because Ben does not play that way.

He wins games when he has to but most of the time the D and running game does it for him.

Also Ben is 29 in March and Manning/Brady will be 35

I don't want to make excuses for why Ben's numbers don't match Rivers. I expect them to. If it turns out they pass more, fine but i want the same TD/INT ratio, same number TDs/attempts etc. He can do it and should. True, he doesn't have Gates, but he has enough other players.

The age thing tickles me because i think Ben is going to do like Elway and win a couple of SB on his way out. Eventually Brady and Manning have to retire and that will leave Ben and Rivers competing to go to the Superbowl...pretty awesome. That's what happened with Elway when there was no Kelly and Marino was older and without support.

JackHammer
01-12-2011, 11:24 PM
As long as he keeps winning he'll be considered as good or better than any QB of his era in the end, just like Bradshaw was considered to be in the end. Ben is a winner and he plays his best when the chips are on the table. I like his odds. It would be beautiful to see him get his 3rd this year and be tied with Brady, but it'll take one hell of a playoff run to get there. But if it happens, Ben gets the tiebreaker for not cheating IMO!!

tanda10506
01-12-2011, 11:38 PM
I agree. I think it only makes us look weak to make up things like Brady sucks and Ray Lewis is overrated. They are 2 excellent players.

To say Brady doesn't make plays is laughable. It's that he makes so many plays it is hard to count.

Ben is good. He is in the second tier right after the big 3 (Brady, Brees, Manning).

The QBs in Ben's tier are Ben, Rodgers, Rivers, and Vick. Ben is the most clutch QB in his tier. That's good enough. I'm happy with that. There is no one I'd rather have other than Brady when it comes to clutch.

Laughable? What's laughable is that you have Brees above Ben. Brees is good but he's not top 3. I didn't say Brady sucks, in fact I agreed as QB he is PROBABLY #1. I'll say it again, Brady does not make plays. I'm not sure where all the plays your seeing him make are coming from but I'm yet to see 1. If you consider making plays throwing an accurate pass to an open receiver and not throwing interceptions then Brady is your guy, I'll give you that. Have you seen him throw on the run? Not to good huh? Have you seen him scramble from side line to side line, shake 2 linebackers and throw a 40 yard strike. No, not yet and not ever. And that is what making a play is all about. When Brady does something somewhat similar let me know.

If I had to go a 16 game season with either Brady or Ben it would depend on the line. If I had the Patriots O line then I would choose Brady. Pocket passing with time is his excellence. If it was with the Steelers O line then Ben all the way. No to take anything away from Brady, I've already been clear on what I think of him, but if he was behind our O line since the beginning I'm not sure if he'd be in the top 5.

1st&Goal
01-12-2011, 11:46 PM
Finally not a true football fan and not just a homer. Brady is HOF and a class act!

Sorry, disagree with that class act comment. Didn't he have a child out of wedlock and basically throw money at the situation and walk away? A class act he ain't A good qb? yup. Gay? absolutely.

RavensFan20
01-13-2011, 03:55 AM
Sorry, disagree with that class act comment. Didn't he have a child out of wedlock and basically throw money at the situation and walk away? A class act he ain't A good qb? yup. Gay? absolutely.

I agree here, Brady is NOT a class act. Manning is a class act because we dont here about him having these personal issues he just plays on the field and that is all we read about no I am dating so and so.

Plus there is a reason Manning is in all of the TV ads and Brady is in none.

plenewken
01-13-2011, 07:28 AM
Have you seen him scramble from side line to side line, shake 2 linebackers and throw a 40 yard strike. No, not yet and not ever. And that is what making a play is all about.

If this is your best example of "making a play", you must not see too many of them. :sofunny:

Superbowl
01-13-2011, 08:58 AM
I agree here, Brady is NOT a class act. Manning is a class act because we dont here about him having these personal issues he just plays on the field and that is all we read about no I am dating so and so.

Plus there is a reason Manning is in all of the TV ads and Brady is in none.

Such BS. Brady has always been a class act, Brady has been offered tons of ads but always decided he didn't want to take all that time out. You sure like to make up stories that fits your agenda and have noooooo idea of what's going on.

steelerchad
01-13-2011, 09:45 AM
Comon. I hate Brady with all my heart and I wish him to fail miserably. But you can't argue with what he's done on the field. And as far as trying to say having a child out of wedlock makes him a bad guy, that's ridiculous.

So his hot actress girlfriend got knocked up and he decided he wasn't totally ready for marriage with her, so he dumped her and paid her a bunch of money to support the kid. What a terrible guy. My god, he had pre marital sex at age 30. And then when the pregnancy problem occured, he was smart enough to not get married because he wasn't totally in love. And then, he actually supported the child. Just awful. He should be castrated.

I still hate the dude.

plenewken
01-13-2011, 09:52 AM
Yes.

And it would be as laughable as saying Batch is as good as Brady because he has the same number of rings.

tanda10506
01-13-2011, 10:11 AM
If this is your best example of "making a play", you must not see too many of them. :sofunny:

As a quarterback that is making a play. It doesn't have to be exactly as I described it but you get the idea ( I would hope). If you don't see many of them, you must not be watching Ben play.

I think I'm being missunderstood though, I'm not saying that Brady isn't great, he is. I'm not even saying Ben is better, I wouldn't go that far YET. I'm just saying the qualities that Ben has and the qualities Brady has are different and you can't just go by stats.

madtowndrunkard
01-13-2011, 10:26 AM
Laughable? What's laughable is that you have Brees above Ben. Brees is good but he's not top 3. I didn't say Brady sucks, in fact I agreed as QB he is PROBABLY #1. I'll say it again, Brady does not make plays. I'm not sure where all the plays your seeing him make are coming from but I'm yet to see 1. If you consider making plays throwing an accurate pass to an open receiver and not throwing interceptions then Brady is your guy, I'll give you that. Have you seen him throw on the run? Not to good huh? Have you seen him scramble from side line to side line, shake 2 linebackers and throw a 40 yard strike. No, not yet and not ever. And that is what making a play is all about. When Brady does something somewhat similar let me know.

If I had to go a 16 game season with either Brady or Ben it would depend on the line. If I had the Patriots O line then I would choose Brady. Pocket passing with time is his excellence. If it was with the Steelers O line then Ben all the way. No to take anything away from Brady, I've already been clear on what I think of him, but if he was behind our O line since the beginning I'm not sure if he'd be in the top 5.

Dude, you just sound like a total idiot with these kinds of comments. I love the steelers as much as anyone here.....but take off your black and gold glasses, your vision of the truth is severely blurred.

I think Ben is a very good QB that can do some things very few QB's can do. With out a doubt he's a winner.... he's usually clutch. He doesn't often make huge mistakes in the 2nd half. But he's no where near Brady in terms of playing the QB position. Ben does have some short comings that at times are glaring.

Put Brady behind our line and he'd have no problem with pressure... he'd have the ball out much quicker then Ben. Think of the number of missed passes Ben throws every week. Brady rarely misses his target. Brady can see the entire field quicker then any QB I've seen since maybe Steve Young. Brady's accuracy is 10X better then Ben's. Not to mention Brady is doing it with MUCH less at the WR position. I don't recall Brady having targets like Ward, Plex, Holmes, and Wallace for most of his career . For a short time he had Moss and Brady put up historic numbers.

Put Brady on the Steelers the past 6-8 years and we'd have more then 2 SB's in that span.

plenewken
01-13-2011, 10:42 AM
As a quarterback that is making a play. It doesn't have to be exactly as I described it but you get the idea ( I would hope). If you don't see many of them, you must not be watching Ben play.

I do watch Ben every week and although Ben makes plays, some of them being amazing, Brady consistently makes more plays than him and the stats prove it. That's all I'm saying.
On a side note, there's no bonus pts for style in football. An amazing TD is still 7pts, not 10, so I take 2 normal TDs over 1 amazing one any day.

Hope you get the idea too.

tanda10506
01-13-2011, 12:10 PM
Dude, you just sound like a total idiot with these kinds of comments. I love the steelers as much as anyone here.....but take off your black and gold glasses, your vision of the truth is severely blurred.

I think Ben is a very good QB that can do some things very few QB's can do. With out a doubt he's a winner.... he's usually clutch. He doesn't often make huge mistakes in the 2nd half. But he's no where near Brady in terms of playing the QB position. Ben does have some short comings that at times are glaring.

Put Brady behind our line and he'd have no problem with pressure... he'd have the ball out much quicker then Ben. Think of the number of missed passes Ben throws every week. Brady rarely misses his target. Brady can see the entire field quicker then any QB I've seen since maybe Steve Young. Brady's accuracy is 10X better then Ben's. Not to mention Brady is doing it with MUCH less at the WR position. I don't recall Brady having targets like Ward, Plex, Holmes, and Wallace for most of his career . For a short time he had Moss and Brady put up historic numbers.

Put Brady on the Steelers the past 6-8 years and we'd have more then 2 SB's in that span.

I never said Ben was flawless or better. You have no proof that Brady would be sucessful behind our line. To be fair I don't have proof that he wouldn't, but I've seen him get blitzed and he doesn't like it. And it shows. It's not black and gold glasses, I'm not saying Ben's #1 neccesarily, I just think Brady gets to much credit. Ben hasn't had Plex, Holmes and Wallace most of his career either, he's had Ward all along just like Brady has had Welker. What I'm saying is, and what some people aren't understanding is, I've never seen Brady do anything that a regular QB doesn't. Yes he does it WAY better, but he does not scramble well, he does not shake defenders, etc. To be clear one more time, I would still put Brady as the best QB the last 10 years, but he has flaws to.

plenewken
01-13-2011, 01:26 PM
I never said Ben was flawless or better. You have no proof that Brady would be sucessful behind our line. To be fair I don't have proof that he wouldn't, but I've seen him get blitzed and he doesn't like it. And it shows. It's not black and gold glasses, I'm not saying Ben's #1 neccesarily, I just think Brady gets to much credit. Ben hasn't had Plex, Holmes and Wallace most of his career either, he's had Ward all along just like Brady has had Welker. What I'm saying is, and what some people aren't understanding is, I've never seen Brady do anything that a regular QB doesn't. Yes he does it WAY better, but he does not scramble well, he does not shake defenders, etc. To be clear one more time, I would still put Brady as the best QB the last 10 years, but he has flaws to.

I've seen Brady do what regular QBs don't do consistently, which is to complete a high % of attempts, week in and week out. He rarely underthrows or overthrows and his number of INT is very low. Ben doesn't come close in this domain
Brady is the best pocket passer in the NFL, bar none, and he's deadly at it. He would definitely do better than Ben behind our OL cause he reads faster and he's more accurate.

As far as getting blitzed and not liking it, who likes being sacked? Ben? Guess where this will take him? He's pretty much 1 concussion away for being forced to retire so he better watch it.

Ben's a great scrambler? No. He's a good scrambler. If he was great at it, he wouldn't have the number of sacks he's had the last 5 years and he'd have a much higher number of running TDs.

One thing that Ben is the best at is to come from behind in the last 2mn, playing no huddle. Nobody is more effective than him, I give him credit for that. I wish he would play with the same intensity and efficiency during the first possession because he would put more points on the board and reduce the pressure on the D.

He's ranked in the top 4 or 5 and he still can improve. As far as being #1, I don't think he'll ever be.

tanda10506
01-13-2011, 02:19 PM
I'm not going to take place in a debate where Ben isn't considered a "great" scrambler. On the run he's the best in the league. The rest of the stuff I guess we're just going back and forth on, I'll agree to disagree on most of it and leave it at that.

plenewken
01-13-2011, 02:33 PM
I'm not going to take place in a debate where Ben isn't considered a "great" scrambler. On the run he's the best in the league. The rest of the stuff I guess we're just going back and forth on, I'll agree to disagree on most of it and leave it at that.

That's fine and I respect your opinion. I gave you my justifications for not considering Ben a great scrambler. I would have liked to know yours but I can live without.

On the run, he's far behind Vick who's arguably the best in the League.

Big7BenHOF
01-13-2011, 02:37 PM
I'm an Insider. Here:

By the end of the 1977 NFL season, Pittsburgh Steelers star Terry Bradshaw could have had every reason in the world to feel like the world's most overlooked quarterback.

Over the previous six years, he had posted a stellar 49-17 regular-season record and an equally impressive 8-4 postseason mark. Two of those playoff wins were Super Bowl victories and in both of those contests he threw a fourth-quarter touchdown pass that helped seal the win for the Steelers.

Despite this abundance of success, Bradshaw still seemingly had not convinced the world he was among the best at his position. Proof of this can be found in the 1977 All-Pro and Pro Bowl voting.

Bradshaw had guided his team to a 9-5 record and the AFC Central Division title and yet was beaten out for those postseason honors not just by the likes of Bob Griese and Roger Staubach (the consensus choices as the top quarterbacks of that season), but also by lesser talents such as Pat Haden and Jim Hart.

Near the end of the 2010 season, Ben Roethlisberger could be in exactly the same kind of overlooked boat as his Black and Gold predecessor. Like Bradshaw, he has a superb regular-season record (69-29, a .704 win percentage that is third-best of any quarterback since 1970) and a dominant 8-2 postseason mark that includes two Super Bowl titles.

Also like Bradshaw, Roethlisberger is coming off a campaign where his team went 9-3 with him under center and won a hard-fought division title. Still, it wasn't enough for him to be named one of the six quarterbacks going to the Pro Bowl.

While that certainly doesn't seem fair on its face, what makes it even more unjust is that a closer look at the game tape and metrics shows that Big Ben was just as good this season as AFC Pro Bowl starter -- and all but certain 2010 NFL MVP -- Tom Brady.

There are three metric areas that work best to illustrate this:

The first is the short pass yards per attempt metric (YPA) (a short pass being one thrown 10 yards or less from the line of scrimmage). Brady's 7.0 YPA total here is excellent, but Roethlisberger's 7.5 YPA is a bit better. One could almost call this a push.

Second on the list is vertical YPA (vertical being defined as a pass thrown 11 or more yards downfield). Brady posted an 11.6 YPA mark, but that was nearly equaled by Roethlisberger's 11.4 YPA. Again, pretty much a push.

Third is bad decision percentage (a bad decision defined as when a quarterback makes a mistake with the ball that leads either to a turnover or a near-turnover such a dropped interception). Brady has always excelled here and his 1.3 percent mark this year meets his historically high standards. Although it tops Roethlisberger's 2.0 percent total, and should seemingly give Brady a significant statistical edge, two things need to be noted here.

First, seven-tenths of a percentage point over the course of a 500-attempt season (which is roughly the attempt pace that both Brady and Roethlisberger were on this year, if Roethlisberger's attempt total was pro-rated over a 16-game schedule) equals between three and four extra bad decisions. In other words, an extra mistake by Roethlisberger every four to five games.

Now consider that Roethlisberger and Brady play in offenses that have markedly different passing philosophies. The New England Patriots switched to a dink-and-dunk offense this year and that led to 70.7 percent of Brady's throws occurring at the short-pass depth level.

To put 70.7 percent into perspective, consider that when Matt Cassel filled in for the injured Brady for almost the entire 2008 season, short passes accounted for only 65.3 percent of New England's pass attempts. The Patriots' brain trust scaled things back dramatically for Cassel and yet they still dink and dunked it more this year than they did that season.

Now contrast those figures to Roethlisberger's 55.9 percent short pass total. This indicates that the Steelers' offense is absolutely not short-pass centric, but the contrast becomes even easier to see when comparing the vertical pass percentages for each quarterback. Roethlisberger's vertical throws accounted for 37.4 percent of his attempts versus 26.8 percent of Brady's.

In other words, Roethlisberger is piloting a high-risk/high-reward offense. A solid bad decision rate for a quarterback of that nature would be in the 2.5-to-3 percent range and Roethlisberger's 2.0 percent total is well below that. Brady's 1.3 percent mark is just as superb (a 2.0 percent total is considered good for dink/dunk offenses) but when this context is applied, it is clear that his lead in this metric is fairly negligible at best.

And that's the story with pretty much any measurement one can come up with to compare Roethlisberger and Brady both for this season and their careers. The biggest exception to this might be that Brady has three Super Bowl rings to Roethlisberger's two, but the second-biggest exception is that Roethlisberger is 4 years younger -- he has a lot more time to make up the title gap than Brady has to extend it.

It also could mean that Roethlisberger has a chance to mimic Bradshaw in one other important way. As overlooked as the Blond Bomber was in 1977, after he piloted his team to two more Super Bowl wins, he finally received his due by being named the first-string quarterback on the NFL's All-Decade Team of the 1970s.

The timing of Roethlisberger's career means that he won't have a chance to beat out Brady for All-Decade honors, but if he guides the Steelers to a Super Bowl this season and ties Brady in the championship rings category, his odds of eventually surpassing Brady as the No. 1 quarterback of this generation are actually quite good.

1st&Goal
01-14-2011, 01:21 AM
Comon. I hate Brady with all my heart and I wish him to fail miserably. But you can't argue with what he's done on the field. And as far as trying to say having a child out of wedlock makes him a bad guy, that's ridiculous.

So his hot actress girlfriend got knocked up and he decided he wasn't totally ready for marriage with her, so he dumped her and paid her a bunch of money to support the kid. What a terrible guy. My god, he had pre marital sex at age 30. And then when the pregnancy problem occured, he was smart enough to not get married because he wasn't totally in love. And then, he actually supported the child. Just awful. He should be castrated.

I still hate the dude.

Yeah , Brady is such a great guy for paying off the woman. Just ask the kid when he get older what a great guy his daddy is. LOL

madtowndrunkard
01-14-2011, 09:45 AM
I never said Ben was flawless or better. You have no proof that Brady would be sucessful behind our line. To be fair I don't have proof that he wouldn't, but I've seen him get blitzed and he doesn't like it. And it shows. It's not black and gold glasses, I'm not saying Ben's #1 neccesarily, I just think Brady gets to much credit. Ben hasn't had Plex, Holmes and Wallace most of his career either, he's had Ward all along just like Brady has had Welker. What I'm saying is, and what some people aren't understanding is, I've never seen Brady do anything that a regular QB doesn't. Yes he does it WAY better, but he does not scramble well, he does not shake defenders, etc. To be clear one more time, I would still put Brady as the best QB the last 10 years, but he has flaws to.


I think the proof is in the fact that Brady has dominated most opposing defenses his entire career in NE. I'm thinking at some point in the last 10 years he had a less then stellar offensive line protecting him. I also think the fact that even the best defenses have a difficult time getting to Brady points to more then just a good O-line....it points to Brady's ability to get rid of the ball. He makes reads as quick as any QB I have ever seen. He's deadly accurate and he rarely makes mistakes.

You haven't seen Brady do anything that the average QB can do? wow you obviously haven't been paying attention. I hate the guy.... I think he's an arrogant sob. But I'm not such a homer that I can't see what he's been doing.

Joe Montana and Dan Marino were also pocket passers. I guess you would put them in the same class as Brady.... over rated because they do what every QB does. I also guess you think Vick, Elway, Favre, Cunningham, etc are the greatest QB's ever....because they did things that aren't typical of a QB.

I think your thinking is flawed. Brady does things most QB's cannot do every week. That's why he has 3 SB rings and the stats and winning % to back it up. He's done everything Ben has done and more. Sure he doesn't have the size to break tackles like Ben does....but he also doesn't hold the ball too long as often as Ben does. Brady actually uses his plays the way they were designed. He hits his WR's in stride with regularity. This season is the first in Ben's career that he hasn't had an issue turning the ball over. Brady has always took care of the ball. The QB's don't compare. Brady is a much better QB - period.

Ben is in the 2nd tier of QB's. He does have something that others do not.... size and a motor that doesn't quit (aka Toughness). That is what puts Ben ahead of most QB's in the league. But he's no Manning, Brady, or Breese. I also think Rivers is surpassing Ben as a passer. Put any of these QB's on the Steelers and I think we are a better team offensively. Would we win more games? I think so.... If we had a QB that could dissect NE's defense like Brady does to us, I think we'd have 3-4 SBs' in the last 10 years. Fact of the matter is Brady has kept us from winning several SB rings.

It is a team sport though so a running game, defense, and special teams are also important to winning.