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Atlanta Dan
02-03-2011, 11:49 PM
More love for Roethlisberger, this time from a QB who lost to him in the Super Bowl

“I like Ben,” Warner told 620 KTAR in Phoenix. “I think Ben’s great and I think he’s a winner. And to me that speaks volumes for your legacy. But when you’re talking about the best quarterbacks in the league, you have to look at all the factors here.

“I mean, he won a Super Bowl and he was 8-23. But he won the Super Bowl and he gets that on his resume. But he was still 8-23.”

Warner is referring to Super Bowl XL, in which Roethlisberger completed nine of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions. He also had seven rushing attempts for 25 yards and a touchdown.

In Super Bowl XLIII against Warner’s Cardinals, Roethlisberger completed 21 of 30 passes for 256 yards, one interception, and the game-winning touchdown pass to Santonio Holmes.

“I’m just waiting to see Ben as the guy that carries his team at some point in time,” Warner said. “The fortunate thing for him is he hasn’t had to do that. He carries them in the last two minutes. He makes some key plays. [He's] phenomenal out of the pocket and ad-libbing. But for me, if you go to the Hall of Fame, you have to be a guy who can carry your team week in and week out as a quarterback. That’s my opinion.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/04/kurt-warner-says-roethlisberger-not-a-hall-of-famer-yet/

WTF?

And we still have to hear from Steve Young this weekend

OX1947
02-04-2011, 12:16 AM
The irony here is too funny.

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 12:17 AM
People out side of the steeler nation do not understand Bens' game.


He's not a fantasy stat monster. Today's fan cannot get past that. They look at his stats and maybe watch a game or two and think Ben's just managing the game.

I liken it to a strike out pitcher vs a location guy. Think Randy Johnson vs Greg Maddux Most people now think to be a great SP you need to throw in the high 90's and put up 200K's. Ben is the guy who just battles his way through innings. He'll let runners on base.... he'll get knocked around a little bit....but he'll always keep it close...and when he hits about 100 pitches he starts throwing his best stuff. He'll keep hitters guessing and off balance all game. And some how he'll give you 20+ wins every year.

Ben fights for wins. He's a lot like John Elway and I'm surprised more people don't talk about this. Elway never put up huge numbers. I think he only had one 4000 yard season. He was never a huge passing yardage guy. He ran more then Ben...but Ben also makes plays that no other QB can. That 3rd and 19 play is the epitome of Ben Roethlisberger. That come back against the Ravens (one of the best defenses in the game) is what Ben Roethlisberger is all about. Once you understand Ben's greatness you will quickly realize he most definitely is a HOF QB....or at least on his way to being one. 3 SB's and 4 AFCC's and 5 playoff births in his first 7 years is something legends are made of.

The steelers had plenty of GREAT defenses over the years...prior to Ben. Heck we had some great TEAMs prior to Ben. But it wasn't until Ben showed up that the Steelers won their first SB since 1979.

SteelersBry79
02-04-2011, 12:18 AM
Um, doesn't Ben carry his team week in and week out every single time? :uhh:

Warner's just jealous because Ben will get into the HOF before he will, not to mention that Warner's lost 2, count them 2 Super Bowls.

BGSU A Dub
02-04-2011, 12:29 AM
BGSU A Dub says Kurt Warner hasn't been checked into the insane asylum, yet.

LambertWardSteel
02-04-2011, 12:35 AM
Warner's 1-2 lifetime mark certainly makes him an expert evaluating other QBs performances in the big game.

4xSBChamps
02-04-2011, 07:21 AM
People out side of the steeler nation do not understand Bens' game. He's not a fantasy stat monster. Today's fan cannot get past that.

most of today's fans, brought-up on ESPN and Interweb chat-groups, aren't mentally-capable of understanding that

TRH
02-04-2011, 07:30 AM
He's not a fantasy stat monster. Today's fan cannot get past that.


And they forget that Ben passed for over 500 yards in a game last year. If that was Brady or Manning it would be shoved down our throats from the media on a daily basis.
I don't understand today's fans anymore either. Its like this:
1. QB # 1 passes for 4,800 yards, 45 TD's, 3 interceptions...his team finishes 3rd in division
2. QB # 2 passes for 3,000 yards, 17 TD's, 10 interceptions and is leader, general, and winner of epic proportions and his team finishes 1st and makes it through the end of the playoffs, likely in the SB

Stupid fans (and stupid media as well) of today will 8 times out of 10 say QB #1 is better and the "MVP". Its truly mindboggling.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 07:48 AM
I don't understand today's fans anymore either. Its like this:
1. QB # 1 passes for 4,800 yards, 45 TD's, 3 interceptions...his team finishes 3rd in division
2. QB # 2 passes for 3,000 yards, 17 TD's, 10 interceptions and is leader, general, and winner of epic proportions and his team finishes 1st and makes it through the end of the playoffs, likely in the SB

Stupid fans (and stupid media as well) of today will 8 times out of 10 say QB #1 is better and the "MVP". Its truly mindboggling.

And they're right because all things being equal, your comparison shows that #1 is a bigger direct contributor to his team's performance than #2.

315pts vs. 119pts is a huge difference and if I assume that an interception means a TD for the opponent, then it's a net contribution of 294pts vs. 49pts.

Nothing against Ben or for Warner though.

TRH
02-04-2011, 07:51 AM
And they're right because all things being equal, your comparison shows that #1 is a bigger direct contributor to his team's performance than #2.

315pts vs. 119pts is a huge difference and if I assume that an interception means a TD for the opponent, then it's a net contribution of 294pts vs. 49pts.

Nothing against Ben or for Warner though.

Brady or Manning should be playing Sunday then, right?
You're wrong...its our team structure. Ben can put up the stats when he gets the opportunity, we've seen him do it. Its hard to put up the stats of "QB 1" when he throws the ball 55 times a game and you're throwing it 25, 30. You then take your Rivers or Brady....i'll take Ben.
I couldn't disagree more.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 08:10 AM
Warner's 1-2 lifetime mark certainly makes him an expert evaluating other QBs performances in the big game.

If Ben's performance was the only factor, he would be 0-2. He was outplayed by the opposing quarterback in XL and XLIII.

It's certainly not Warner's fault he lost those Super Bowls. They didn't lose because of him.

Warner's right. Ben shouldn't be a hall of famer yet, but a lot depends on his performance on Sunday. He can make a case for himself by earning a Super Bowl MVP. As a quarterback, if he can win 3 Super Bowls without earning even 1 SB MVP, it insuates he's riding shotgun.

Ya'll can talk about how Ben is a winner all you want, but you know deep down inside he only wins because he's a Steeler. He wins because the Steelers win. It doesn't take much to win from a quarterback on the Steelers. Mike Tomzak guided them to the playoffs, and Neil O'Donnell took them to a Super Bowl (and performed better than Ben did in SB XL)

If Ben had been drafted by the Lions, he wouldn't be playing in his 3rd Super Bowl.

With all that said, I beleive Ben is a good quarterback. I just think his abilities are overblown because he's on a great team that wins Super Bowls.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 08:10 AM
Brady or Manning should be playing Sunday then, right?
You're wrong...its our team structure. Ben can put up the stats when he gets the opportunity, we've seen him do it. Its hard to put up the stats of "QB 1" when he throws the ball 55 times a game and you're throwing it 25, 30. You then take your Rivers or Brady....i'll take Ben.
I couldn't disagree more.

You don't get it. I'm not saying Ben is bad and I want Brady, what I'm saying is Brady contributes directly more points to his team than Ben and that's how QBs are measured.
Are you gonna tell me Crosby's number of goals means sh*t because he shoots the puck more than the others? Same for LeBron James? C'mon!

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 08:17 AM
Warner's 1-2 lifetime mark certainly makes him an expert evaluating other QBs performances in the big game.

Warner's statement was odd on so many levels but IMO a big motivator was that the only way Warmer was getting to Canton given the donut hole in his career between his early years with the Rams and late years in Arizona was to win a second Super Bowl - Roethlisberger's drive in the last 2 minutes in XLIII took care of that

These guys have egos and Warner has to be bitter about the outcome in Tampa (Staubach is still upset abiout his Super Bowl losses to Pittsburgh 30 years ago)

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 08:20 AM
IWarner's right. Ben shouldn't be a hall of famer yet, but a lot depends on his performance on Sunday. He can make a case for himself by earning a Super Bowl MVP. As a quarterback, if he can win 3 Super Bowls without earning even 1 SB MVP, it insuates he's riding shotgun.

A very credible argument could also be made that he should have won MVP for Super Bowl 43. After all, his numbers were quite similar to Eli Manning's numbers in Super Bowl 42, and Manning won MVP for that game, even though the argument can also be made that the Giants defense won that game more than anything else. I would also bet money that had Brady or Peyton Manning had a similar game to Ben's in 43 and won a Super Bowl on a last minute touchdown drive the same way, that either one of them would have been named MVP.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 08:22 AM
Roethlisberger's drive in the last 2 minutes in XLIII took care of that


And Woodley took care of Warner in the following drive, don't forget it either.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 08:22 AM
Warner's statement was odd on so many levels but IMO a big motivator was that the only way Warmer was getting to Canton given the donut hole in his career between his early years with the Rams and late years in Arizona was to win a second Super Bowl - Roethlisberger's drive in the last 2 minutes in XLIII took care of that

These guys have egos and Warner has to be bitter about the outcome in Tampa (Staubach is still upset abiout his Super Bowl losses to Pittsburgh 30 years ago)

You guys can't get past the fact that Ben was like 8-22 with 2 interceptions and a rating of like 22 in Super Bowl XL. You have nothing to say to that, so you just attack Warner?

Face it, regardless if Warner has ulterior motives, he still has a valid point.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 08:27 AM
A very credible argument could also be made that he should have won MVP for Super Bowl 43. After all, his numbers were quite similar to Eli Manning's numbers in Super Bowl 42, and Manning won MVP for that game, even though the argument can also be made that the Giants defense won that game more than anything else. I would also bet money that had Brady or Peyton Manning had a similar game to Ben's in 43 and won a Super Bowl on a last minute touchdown drive the same way, that either one of them would have been named MVP.

MVP is for 1 game, you don't compare Ben's performance with another QB performance in a different game.
It's like saying xyz shouldn't have won the gold medal because his time was worse than the silver medalist 4 years prior.

Holmes was MVP because his performance was considered better than any other Steeler that day, maybe with the exception of Harrison but Ben was definitely not in the race, IMO.

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 08:28 AM
If Ben's performance was the only factor, he would be 0-2. He was outplayed by the opposing quarterback in XL and XLIII.

And Brady got MVP for Super Bowl 36 on the strength of a very pedestrian 145 yards passing and a last minute FG by Vinatieri, while Warner passed for 365 yards in that same game.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 08:30 AM
And Brady got MVP for Super Bowl 36 on the strength of a very pedestrian 145 yards passing and a last minute FG by Vinatieri, while Warner passed for 365 yards in that same game.

ok.......

this is what's called an non-siquitor (i think that's how it's spelled)

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 08:31 AM
MVP is for 1 game, you don't compare Ben's performance with another QB performance in a different game.
It's like saying xyz shouldn't have won the gold medal because his time was worse than the silver medalist 4 years prior.

Holmes was MVP because his performance was considered better than any other Steeler that day, maybe with the exception of Harrison but Ben was definitely not in the race, IMO.

Why not, when their numbers were very similar? The Giants defense and a fluke catch won Super Bowl 42, not Eli Manning, sorry.

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 08:32 AM
ok.......

this is what's called an non-siquitor (i think that's how it's spelled)

Non-sequitur, and you used the same argument. Warner didn't outperform Brady by pretty much every statistical measure in Super Bowl 36?

plenewken
02-04-2011, 08:38 AM
Why not, when their numbers were very similar? The Giants defense and a fluke catch won Super Bowl 42, not Eli Manning, sorry.

Eli Manning was the Giants MVP in SB42, this has NOTHING to do with who was the Steelers MVP one year later.
I don't give a f*ck about Manning by the way, I'm strictly talking about your logic.

You can argue that Ben should have been MVP instead of Holmes (or Harrison) but leave Manning and Brady out of the equation, it's irrelevant.

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 08:43 AM
Eli Manning was the Giants MVP in SB42, this has NOTHING to do with who was the Steelers MVP one year later.
I don't give a f*ck about Manning by the way, I'm strictly talking about your logic.

And I'm saying the MVP could have gone to a couple of Giants defensive linemen (see Randy White and Harvey Martin sharing MVP honors in Super Bowl 12) and it would have been more deserved than Manning getting it. My argument is that Manning got that MVP award because of his last name and pedigree probably more than anything else. If Roethlisberger's last name was "Brady" or "Manning," I guarantee he gets the nod for MVP in Super Bowl 43. And as such, bringing Manning and Brady into the argument is NOT irrelevant.

And as far as Peyton Manning is concerned, he was awarded MVP of Super Bowl 41 on the following numbers: 25-38 for 247 yards, 1 TD and 1 Interception, while Dominic Rhodes had 113 yards rushing and a 5 yards per carry average and Addai had 77 yards rushing on 19 carries and another 66 yards receiving on 10 receptions in the same game. Rhodes and Addai were the Colts MVPs for that game, not Manning. Roethlisberger was passed over for MVP in Super Bowl 43 on 21-30 passing for 256 yards with 1 TD and 1 INT. Practically identical numbers. See where I'm going with this now?

4xSBChamps
02-04-2011, 08:48 AM
THIS is the problem with how players are enshrined into Canton ~ because it is a decision based on preference by writers, with no specific thresholds to cross or barriers to break, it will always be left to conjecture, as we discussed in another recent thread this week:
regardless of his numbers and accomplishments, Warner has been, and will continue to be, a darling of the media, and will easily gain admittance into the HoF, while Roethlisbergere's off-field incidents will be held against him (do you think the same media that hypes & scolds him for singing at a piano-bar when they need a story, is going to do a 180* and vote him in?)

the oldest 25 surviving members of the HoF should be given ballots, if they choose to participate with the current crop of voters, and their opinions should count for something

SteelCityMom
02-04-2011, 08:53 AM
Big whoop.

Is Ben a HOFer now? No, that's ridiculous. He does very well when he has to, but he'd definitely just not there yet.

Which is ok. It took Terry a good while (like his 8th or 9th season) to really bloom as a QB and a leader too.

If Ben wins another SB or two (and plays very well in them), and keeps developing his game in the regular season, he's definitely going to have a place waiting for him in the HOF.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 08:53 AM
If Rothlisberger's last name was "Brady" or "Manning," I guarantee he gets the nod for MVP in Super Bowl 43.

Maybe but IMO, it would have been a mistake. The winning TD in SB43 was 80% Holmes and 20% Ben. The catch was incredible. Holmes' reception and run before the TD was awesome too.
In terms of impact on the victory, Ben's impact wasn't close to Holmes (and Harrison).

Will (should) Ben be a HOFer? Absolutely, but it's way too premature to even talk about it.

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 09:03 AM
You guys can't get past the fact that Ben was like 8-22 with 2 interceptions and a rating of like 22 in Super Bowl XL. You have nothing to say to that, so you just attack Warner?

Face it, regardless if Warner has ulterior motives, he still has a valid point.

I thought it was an odd statement (what you do in the 2 minute drill has been a yardstick for measuring QB success for decades) and that Warner is bitter

But since you want some facts on entering the HOF not being predicated upon great passer ratings in the Super Bowl, here is something to say on that from Cold Hard Football Facts regarding 2 Hall of Famers - applying Warner's HOF criteria to these 2 QBs apparentkly means they were enshrined under false pretenses:noidea:


Bob Griese, Miami
Games – 3 (VI, VII, VIII)
Wins – 2 (VII, VIII)

Overview: Griese stands as proof that football prizes team accomplishments over individual statistics. He was ushered into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1990, but he rarely did anything more notable than hand the ball off while leading arguably the most lethal ground attack in modern NFL history. Even his Hall of Fame bio describes him as “the poised leader of a classic ball-control offense that generated an awesomely efficient running attack.” This legacy was never more evident than it was in Griese’s three Super Bowl appearances. In his two victories, Griese attempted just 18 total passes. His Super Bowl passer rating of 72.7 is only slightly below his pedestrian career passer rating of 77.1.

Signature moment: Griese handed the ball off a then-record 51 times in Miami’s 24-7 victory over Minnesota in Super Bowl VIII. He attempted just 7 passes, completing 6 for 73 yards, 0 TDs and 0 INTs.

Super Bowl Comp. Att. Pct. Yards TDs INTs Rating Result
VI 12 23 52.2 134 0 1 51.7 L 24-3
VII 8 11 72.3 88 1 1 88.4 W 14-7
VIII 6 7 85.7 73 0 0 110.1 W 24-7
TOTALS 26 41 63.4 295 1 2 72.7 2-1

John Elway, Denver
Games – 5 (XXI, XXII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII)
Wins – 2 (XXXII, XXXIII)
MVPs – 1 (XXXIII)

Overview: Elway has a reputation as a big-game gunslinger. The Cold, Hard Football Facts prove he was anything but a big-game player on Super Bowl Sunday. Elway threw at least 1 INT in all five of his Super Bowl appearances, including six in the three losses. His performance in Super Bowl XXIV, a 55-10 loss to San Francisco, was one of the worst by a quarterback in Super Bowl history (10 of 26, 108 yards, 0 TD, 2 INTs, 19.4 rating). With the arrival of Mike Shanahan as its coach, Denver became a team powered by the run and Elway rode the coattails of running back Terrell Davis to victory. The Broncos shed their cloak of vincibility with a 31-24 win over Green Bay in Super Bowl XXXII. Elway had his usual subpar Super Bowl passing performance (12 of 22 for 123 yards with 0 TDs, 1 INT), but MVP Davis rushed for 157 yards and a Super Bowl record 3 TDs. Elway pulled it all together in Super Bowl XXXIII, a 34-19 win over Atlanta. He passed for 336 yards in the final game of his career, earned MVP honors, erased a legacy of Super Bowl duds and rode off into the sunset one of the most celebrated players in league history. Denver rushed 75 times and passed 51 times in its two Super Bowl victories.

Signature moment: Denver and Green Bay were locked in a 17-17 tie late in the third quarter of Super Bowl XXXII when the Broncos faced a 3rd and 6 at the Green Bay 12. Elway dropped back to pass but then ran through an opening in the Green Bay defense. He dove for the first down, only to get whacked by safety LeRoy Butler. Elway spun around in midair like a helicopter, but had reached the first-down marker. Davis soon scored to give the Broncos a 24-17 lead. It’s only fitting that the most memorable play of Elway’s Super Bowl career is not a spiraling pass hanging in the air, but a gritty rush attempt near the goal line. Elway also rushed for a 1 yard TD in the second quarter of Super Bowl XXXII.


Super Bowl Comp. Att. Pct. Yards TDs INTs Rating Result
XXI 22 37 59.5 304 1 1 83.6 L 39-20
XXII 14 38 36.8 257 1 3 36.8 L 42-10
XXIV 10 26 38.5 108 0 2 19.4 L 55-10
XXXII 12 22 54.5 123 0 1 51.9 W 31-24
XXXIII 18 29 62.1 336 1 1 99.2 W 34-19
TOTALS 76 152 50.0 1,128 3 8 59.3 2-3

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_695_The_Super_Bowl_Cling-Ons.html

Roethlisberger is only in his seventh year and any discussion regarding whether he should go to Canton is of course premature - but for Warner to apparently say that if Roethlisberger only continues to put up his past regular season stats for several more years and is capped at winning 2 Super Bowls he is not Canton worthy is contradicted by the Elawy and Griese examples above

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 09:04 AM
Non-sequitur, and you used the same argument. Warner didn't outperform Brady by pretty much every statistical measure in Super Bowl 36?

I was addressing you're argument. You didn't address mine, because Brady wasn't even a part of this discussion - why bring him into it?

Non-sequitur: a statement having little or no relevance to what preceded it

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 09:09 AM
You guys can't get past the fact that Ben was like 8-22 with 2 interceptions and a rating of like 22 in Super Bowl XL. You have nothing to say to that, so you just attack Warner?

Face it, regardless if Warner has ulterior motives, he still has a valid point.


Ben was bad in SB XL. But dont forget it was only his 2nd season in the league. During the playoffs Ben did elevate his game. We would not be in SB XL if it were not for Ben. You cant deny that fact.


In Ben's next SB he was the true MVP of that game. Holmes made a great catch at the end. But who threw that ball? Who threw a perfect pass to Holmes they play before "the catch" that Holmes dropped? Montana became a legend after the infamous "drive" that beat Cinci. Ben had a drive against Arizona that was more impressive then what Montana did. Yet no one mentions it.

This post season.... Ben's 2nd half against the Ravens was stuff that legends are made of. That 3rd and 19 play is one of the greatest plays in steeler history.

Ben contributes in a different way then QB's like Rogers or Manning. He's not a stats monster because our team is built differently. Our coaching staff does not want that kind of game. We tried it....Ben had a 4000+ yard season. You dont' think if we stuck with an air it out offense Ben would get even better doing that?

Put Ben on the Lions and they wont win the SB. But I'd bet they'd be fighting for a playoff spot. There isn't a QB in the league with Bens toughness and willingness to do anything to get the job done. Hes a big John Elway. Neither QB lit up the score board.

I will say if we had a better OC I think we would be a top 5 scoring team. Our offense as a unit trips over it self more often then not. It's not till late in games where the talent shines and Arians becomes less of a factor.

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 09:12 AM
I was addressing you're argument. You didn't address mine, because Brady wasn't even a part of this discussion - why bring him into it?

Non-sequitur: a statement having little or no relevance to what preceded it

Because QB performance relative to the opposing QBs performance in the same Super Bowl was your argument. If we had to rely on Ben's performance alone relative to his counterpart on the other sideline, we would've lost the Super Bowl. That was your argument, no? Is it safe to say then that the Patriots would have lost Super Bowl 36 due to the fact that Warner had more than 200 yards more passing than Brady, if QB play was the only deciding factor? I think it's germane to the conversation since Brady got MVP for that game, therefore I think I did address your argument, since Ben's lack of a Super Bowl MVP award to this point suggests he's just along for the ride, as far as you seem to be concerned.

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 09:15 AM
Put Peyton Manning on the Lions and they dont win a SB either. Heck put Peyton Manning on the Colts and they don't win a SB. You can say the same for Brady.

Yes both QB's are better precision passers. Both QB's can read a defense and get rid of the ball quicker than anyone. But when things break down..... or their O-line can't get the job done.... neither QB is effective.

Ben is not as sharp or quick getting rid of the ball....but when things break down or the O-line isnt getting it done...Ben shines.

I'd love to see Ben behind the Colts or Patriots O-line.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 09:20 AM
[B]His performance in Super Bowl XXIV, a 55-10 loss to San Francisco, was one of the worst by a quarterback in Super Bowl history (10 of 26, 108 yards, 0 TD, 2 INTs, 19.4 rating).

Elway scored a rushing TD in SB XXIV.

grward
02-04-2011, 09:24 AM
[I]“I’m just waiting to see Ben as the guy that carries his team at some point in time,” Warner said. “The fortunate thing for him is he hasn’t had to do that. [I] He carries them in the last two minutes. He makes some key plays.

This typical crap is so annoying ... Apparently Know-it-all-Kurt didn't watch the playoffs in 2005 when Ben DID carry his team in all 3 road games. This kind of bullshit really gets me going b/c these egotistical idiots just repeat what they heard from someone else.

Not to mention the difference in protection. They do play behind better Olines. Hello???

And let's put it into the proper perspective. Go ask Manning and Brady which would they rather have ... their superstar stats or rings. Gee, wonder what they would say. Stupid, narrow minded assheads!

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 09:26 AM
Put Peyton Manning on the Lions and they dont win a SB either. Heck put Peyton Manning on the Colts and they don't win a SB. You can say the same for Brady.

Yes both QB's are better precision passers. Both QB's can read a defense and get rid of the ball quicker than anyone. But when things break down..... or their O-line can't get the job done.... neither QB is effective.

Ben is not as sharp or quick getting rid of the ball....but when things break down or the O-line isnt getting it done...Ben shines. .

This analysis buttresses your breakdown as to how Roethlisberger's skill set is not that by which "purists" such as Steve Young and (apparently) Kurt Warner measure a QB but is nevertheless very effective

Because Ben Roethlisberger has spent his career playing on a team with a powerhouse defense and black-and-blue reputation, there is the misnomer that he is simply an outstanding caretaker. Because his statistical output has beeen all over the board - his passer rating has been as low as 75.4 one year and as high as 104.1 another -- the debate about his place in the quarterback pecking order will carry on forever.

But what can’t be put into data form is how Big Ben looks on film. Michael Vick might be the most physically gifted athlete in football, but Roethlisberger is the most physically gifted quarterback. He makes plays as a pure passer that others can’t even fathom. Obviously, he has the unparalleled ability to throw with defenders draping off of him. But he is also effective in and out of the pocket. And he’s strong enough to throw from different platforms (i.e. when he’s on the move or when his feet aren’t set). And when Roethlisberger does square up and deliver a fundamentally sound pass, his ball practically whistles. ...


Roethlisberger, on the other hand, makes the majority of his decisions after the snap. He’s not the most shrewd reader of defenses, but he compensates with improvisational instincts that are second to none. Roethlisberger is one of the few players in the league who understands defenses better once the ball is in play. Most quarterbacks can’t afford to begin a play behind the eight ball like this. But most quarterbacks don’t have the strength and temerity to constantly work out of a muddied pocket, or an almost otherworldly ability to manipulate defenders with multiple pump fakes.

On the surface, it might sound like Rodgers’ is the superior style. After all, he’s smart before the snap and can always tap into his own outstanding improvisational skills when need be. But imagine if you’re a defensive coordinator trying to game plan against Roethlisberger. How do you scheme when the opposing quarterback does not follow traditional progressions and methods? You can’t bait him into bad decisions because he does not rely on making good decisions. And there are often no patterns to his decisions. Roethlisberger can be so unsound fundamentally that he’s impossible to trick.

http://nfl-facts-and-rumors.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/22475988/27359478

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 09:27 AM
Comparing Elway to Ben. I think both are very similar QBs.

I think the reason Elway doesn't have more rings is because of the cast around him. He didn't have a good running game until Davis. It was often said that Elway's O-line stunk because he took a lot of pressure. The broncos lost games if you could knock Elway around keep him from extending plays with his feet. (sound familiar? )

The Broncos defense was solid, but not great.

Sure Ben does need a good team around him to win SB's. Name a QB that doesnt? the best passer ever was Dan Marino - PERIOD. How many rings does he have again?

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 09:29 AM
Elway scored a rushing TD in SB XXIV.

And Roethlisberger scored one in XL - further proof how similar Elawy and Roethlisberger are?:noidea:

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 09:29 AM
I thought it was an odd statement (what you do in the 2 minute drill has been a yardstick for measuring QB success for decades) and that Warner is bitter

But since you want some facts on entering the HOF not being predicated upon great passer ratings in the Super Bowl, here is something to say on that from Cold Hard Football Facts regarding 2 Hall of Famers - applying Warner's HOF criteria to these 2 QBs apparentkly means they were enshrined under false pretenses:noidea:


Bob Griese, Miami
Games – 3 (VI, VII, VIII)
Wins – 2 (VII, VIII)

Overview: Griese stands as proof that football prizes team accomplishments over individual statistics. He was ushered into the Pro Football Hall of Fame in 1990, but he rarely did anything more notable than hand the ball off while leading arguably the most lethal ground attack in modern NFL history. Even his Hall of Fame bio describes him as “the poised leader of a classic ball-control offense that generated an awesomely efficient running attack.” This legacy was never more evident than it was in Griese’s three Super Bowl appearances. In his two victories, Griese attempted just 18 total passes. His Super Bowl passer rating of 72.7 is only slightly below his pedestrian career passer rating of 77.1.

Signature moment: Griese handed the ball off a then-record 51 times in Miami’s 24-7 victory over Minnesota in Super Bowl VIII. He attempted just 7 passes, completing 6 for 73 yards, 0 TDs and 0 INTs.

Super Bowl Comp. Att. Pct. Yards TDs INTs Rating Result
VI 12 23 52.2 134 0 1 51.7 L 24-3
VII 8 11 72.3 88 1 1 88.4 W 14-7
VIII 6 7 85.7 73 0 0 110.1 W 24-7
TOTALS 26 41 63.4 295 1 2 72.7 2-1

John Elway, Denver
Games – 5 (XXI, XXII, XXIV, XXXII, XXXIII)
Wins – 2 (XXXII, XXXIII)
MVPs – 1 (XXXIII)

Overview: Elway has a reputation as a big-game gunslinger. The Cold, Hard Football Facts prove he was anything but a big-game player on Super Bowl Sunday. Elway threw at least 1 INT in all five of his Super Bowl appearances, including six in the three losses. His performance in Super Bowl XXIV, a 55-10 loss to San Francisco, was one of the worst by a quarterback in Super Bowl history (10 of 26, 108 yards, 0 TD, 2 INTs, 19.4 rating). With the arrival of Mike Shanahan as its coach, Denver became a team powered by the run and Elway rode the coattails of running back Terrell Davis to victory. The Broncos shed their cloak of vincibility with a 31-24 win over Green Bay in Super Bowl XXXII. Elway had his usual subpar Super Bowl passing performance (12 of 22 for 123 yards with 0 TDs, 1 INT), but MVP Davis rushed for 157 yards and a Super Bowl record 3 TDs. Elway pulled it all together in Super Bowl XXXIII, a 34-19 win over Atlanta. He passed for 336 yards in the final game of his career, earned MVP honors, erased a legacy of Super Bowl duds and rode off into the sunset one of the most celebrated players in league history. Denver rushed 75 times and passed 51 times in its two Super Bowl victories.

Signature moment: Denver and Green Bay were locked in a 17-17 tie late in the third quarter of Super Bowl XXXII when the Broncos faced a 3rd and 6 at the Green Bay 12. Elway dropped back to pass but then ran through an opening in the Green Bay defense. He dove for the first down, only to get whacked by safety LeRoy Butler. Elway spun around in midair like a helicopter, but had reached the first-down marker. Davis soon scored to give the Broncos a 24-17 lead. It’s only fitting that the most memorable play of Elway’s Super Bowl career is not a spiraling pass hanging in the air, but a gritty rush attempt near the goal line. Elway also rushed for a 1 yard TD in the second quarter of Super Bowl XXXII.


Super Bowl Comp. Att. Pct. Yards TDs INTs Rating Result
XXI 22 37 59.5 304 1 1 83.6 L 39-20
XXII 14 38 36.8 257 1 3 36.8 L 42-10
XXIV 10 26 38.5 108 0 2 19.4 L 55-10
XXXII 12 22 54.5 123 0 1 51.9 W 31-24
XXXIII 18 29 62.1 336 1 1 99.2 W 34-19
TOTALS 76 152 50.0 1,128 3 8 59.3 2-3

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/Articles/11_695_The_Super_Bowl_Cling-Ons.html

Certainly a poor Super Bowl performance is not enough to keep a worthy QB from the HOF. If Dan Marino had a terrible Super Bowl at any point in his career, he still makes it - because when he retired he held like all the records. His career was worthy with or without SB victories - the same goes for Elway. Even if Elway hadn't won those 2 Super Bowls at the end of his career, he still would have a bust in Canton.

Ben's career is not even close to HOF worthy without his SB victories. We wouldn't even be talking about it. Anybody trying to make a case for Ben in the hall of fame will start his argument by saying, "He's a 2 time Super Bowl winning quarterback". (I completely disagree with the premise entirely, but that's another argument for another day)

Ben's Super Bowl performances resonate more than other quarterbacks simply because that's the only reason people are debating whether Ben should be in the HOF.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 09:32 AM
And Roethlisberger scored one in XL - further proof how similar Elawy and Roethlisberger are?:noidea:

Yes, they are very similar.

grward
02-04-2011, 09:35 AM
Maybe but IMO, it would have been a mistake. The winning TD in SB43 was 80% Holmes and 20% Ben. The catch was incredible. Holmes' reception and run before the TD was awesome too.
In terms of impact on the victory, Ben's impact wasn't close to Holmes (and Harrison).

Will (should) Ben be a HOFer? Absolutely, but it's way too premature to even talk about it.

You can't be serious! Ben was awesome in that game. Not only did he throw a PERFECT, precision ball to Holmes, he threw another one seconds earlier that Holmes missed! If that ball was not thrown with the perfect accuracy by Ben, no way does Holmes catch it. That play, in now way, can be considered 80/20 ... it's a team sport and can't be much other than 50/50.

But for MVP, it shouldn't come down to that single play. Yes, Holmes had some other good plays, but so did Ben. Don't you remember the play that Ben escaped the pocket, was under a lot of pressure, runs to the right side of the field, and throws the ball back across the left to Heath Miller for a first down? I think that play was one of the most amazing plays I've seen Ben make. Simply b/c Ben knew the entire time exactly where Heath was w/out looking at him. If you watch the play, he throws that ball on instinct and with precision before even looking to make sure Heath was where he thought he would be. Ben played great and deserved MVP as much as Holmes did.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 09:36 AM
Because QB performance relative to the opposing QBs performance in the same Super Bowl was your argument.

No, that's not my argument.

You said something to the effect about Warner's Super Bowl record. It seemed to me you were insuating Warner has no room to talk because he's not as good as Ben - only because he's 1-2 in Super Bowls.

I thought that insuation was ridiculous, so I made the comment. If I jumped to the wrong conclusion about what you meant, I apologize.

This topic is about Warner and his comments about Ben. I'm not even going to address anything about Brady.

Sixburgher
02-04-2011, 09:39 AM
No, that's not my argument.

You said something to the effect about Warner's Super Bowl record. It seemed to me you were insuating Warner has no room to talk because he's not as good as Ben - only because he's 1-2 in Super Bowls.

I thought that insuation was ridiculous, so I made the comment. If I jumped to the wrong conclusion about what you meant, I apologize.

This topic is about Warner and his comments about Ben. I'm not even going to address anything about Brady.

Sorry, I misunderstood your argument as well. However, I wasn't one of the people harping on Warner's 1-2 Super Bowl record. Peace. :drink:

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 09:41 AM
Certainly a poor Super Bowl performance is not enough to keep a worthy QB from the HOF. If Dan Marino had a terrible Super Bowl at any point in his career, he still makes it - because when he retired he held like all the records. His career was worthy with or without SB victories - the same goes for Elway. Even if Elway hadn't won those 2 Super Bowls at the end of his career, he still would have a bust in Canton.

Ben's career is not even close to HOF worthy without his SB victories. We wouldn't even be talking about it. Anybody trying to make a case for Ben in the hall of fame will start his argument by saying, "He's a 2 time Super Bowl winning quarterback". (I completely disagree with the premise entirely, but that's another argument for another day)

Ben's Super Bowl performances resonate more than other quarterbacks simply because that's the only reason people are debating whether Ben should be in the HOF.

If Troy Aikman and Joe Montana didnt have rings they also would not be HOF'ers.

Ben's ability to win games is what makes him great. That's the point Ben's nay sayers don't get. He's HOF worthy because of his ability to make things happen and win games. I don't know what the stat is but I'd be willing to bet Ben is one of the greatest QB's in NFL history in the 4th quarter. I know his winning % is one of the best ever. Come playoff time Ben typically shines. We did just beat two of the better defenses in the NFL. There have been plenty of great teams over the years...but with out a great QB they didn't win SB's and playoffs consistently. Sure you'll get a fluke team like the Ravens. But they can't sustain it. To sustain success you have to have a great QB. No matter how good the rest of your team is.

I think the Colts, Patriots, and Steelers prove that point. I also expect more success out of the Packers and Saints.

Its' the Patriots, Steelers, and packers though that IMO have the ablity to win multiple SB's. Why? Because they not only have a great QB they also have a damn good defense (usually) NE's defense this season was why they are not in the big dance and we are. Until Indy can give Manning a good defense they will not win in the post season.

I fully expect NE's defense to be better in the future. I'd bet $ that all 3 teams will be in another SB before their QB's careers are over.

The Jets took out NE and Indy because all they had to do was disrupt both QB's. Ben is in the SB because disrupting Ben is like adding fuel to the fire.

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 09:42 AM
Certainly a poor Super Bowl performance is not enough to keep a worthy QB from the HOF. If Dan Marino had a terrible Super Bowl at any point in his career, he still makes it - because when he retired he held like all the records. His career was worthy with or without SB victories - the same goes for Elway. Even if Elway hadn't won those 2 Super Bowls at the end of his career, he still would have a bust in Canton.

Ben's career is not even close to HOF worthy without his SB victories. We wouldn't even be talking about it. Anybody trying to make a case for Ben in the hall of fame will start his argument by saying, "He's a 2 time Super Bowl winning quarterback". (I completely disagree with the premise entirely, but that's another argument for another day)

Ben's Super Bowl performances resonate more than other quarterbacks simply because that's the only reason people are debating whether Ben should be in the HOF.

The article I cited at length pointed out both that mediocre Super Bowl performances will not keep you out of Canton but also that if your only signal accomplishment was being the QB on multiple Super Bowl winners that is often enough to get you in, with Exhibit A being Bob Griese

In addition to Griese I doubt Bradshaw or Bart Starr would be in Canton but for their multiple championships and I also doubt 9 Steelers from the 70s team would be in Canton but for winning 4 Lombardis (Swann and Stalworth are Exhibits A and B there) - the 70s Cowboys have cried a river of tears bemoaning the fact that only 3 Cowboys from their 70s teams made it while 9 70s Steelers are in, a fact the Cowboys attribute to losing SB XIII.

To the extent the HOF is an individual honor perhaps team accomplishments should not factor into who gets in, but it definitely is a factor, regardless of whether Warner or anyone else likes it - if Roethlisberger gets a third ring he is in regardless of whether he plays another down after winning the third Lombardi - Bradshaw thinks he is in already -

Q: Roethlisberger the quarterback?

A: He's accurate . . . determined . . . he's poised . . . makes great plays in big games . . . unflappable . . . competitive as hell . . . strong as hell. He's such a throwback. He's a Joe Kapp-Roman Gabriel kinda guy.

Q: Hall of Fame?

A: I think he's in the Hall of Fame now.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/serby_sunday_with_terry_bradshaw_WgvkieuXPDixL4MzP a5BfO

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 09:44 AM
You can't be serious! Ben was awesome in that game. Not only did he throw a PERFECT, precision ball to Holmes, he threw another one seconds earlier that Holmes missed! If that ball was not thrown with the perfect accuracy by Ben, no way does Holmes catch it. That play, in now way, can be considered 80/20 ... it's a team sport and can't be much other than 50/50.

But for MVP, it shouldn't come down to that single play. Yes, Holmes had some other good plays, but so did Ben. Don't you remember the play that Ben escaped the pocket, was under a lot of pressure, runs to the right side of the field, and throws the ball back across the left to Heath Miller for a first down? I think that play was one of the most amazing plays I've seen Ben make. Simply b/c Ben knew the entire time exactly where Heath was w/out looking at him. If you watch the play, he throws that ball on instinct and with precision before even looking to make sure Heath was where he thought he would be. Ben played great and deserved MVP as much as Holmes did.


I've seen two Qb's in my life make a play like the one you are talking about to Heath..... Brett Favre in his prime...and John Elway. You might see that from a good QB once in great while.... Ben does it on a regular basis.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 09:47 AM
This typical crap is so annoying ... Apparently Know-it-all-Kurt didn't watch the playoffs in 2005 when Ben DID carry his team in all 3 road games. This kind of bullshit really gets me going b/c these egotistical idiots just repeat what they heard from someone else.

Not to mention the difference in protection. They do play behind better Olines. Hello???

And let's put it into the proper perspective. Go ask Manning and Brady which would they rather have ... their superstar stats or rings. Gee, wonder what they would say. Stupid, narrow minded assheads!

Ben would take sacks no matter where he plays. He holds on to the ball too long. He's not confident in his accuracy, and it seems to me that he has trouble reading the defense. To his credit, he relies on his strength, which is his brute, to shrug off tackles and make plays ad hoc.

His ridiculous plays go on SportsCenter; his sacks don't.

Brady and Manning wouldn't get sacked as much in Pittsburgh because they know how to get rid of the ball. They would also win more Super Bowls with the Steelers elite defense.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 09:53 AM
The article I cited at length pointed out both that mediocre Super Bowl performances will not keep you out of Canton but also that if your only signal accomplishment was being the QB on multiple Super Bowl winners that is often enough to get you in, with Exhibit A being Bob Griese

In addition to Griese I doubt Bradshaw or Bart Starr would be in Canton but for their multiple championships and I also doubt 9 Steelers from the 70s team would be in Canton but for winning 4 Lombardis (Swann and Stalworth are Exhibits A and B there) - the 70s Cowboys have cried a river of tears bemoaning the fact that only 3 Cowboys from their 70s teamsmade it while 9 70s Steelers are in, a fact the Cowboys attribute to losing SB XIII.

To the extent the HOF is an individual honor perhaps team accomplishments should not factor into who gets in, but it definitey is a factor, regardless of whether Warner or anyone else likes it - if Roethlisberger gets a third ring he is in regardless of whether he plays another down after winning the third Lombardi - Bradshaw thinks he is in already -

Q: Roethlisberger the quarterback?

A: He's accurate . . . determined . . . he's poised . . . makes great plays in big games . . . unflappable . . . competitive as hell . . . strong as hell. He's such a throwback. He's a Joe Kapp-Roman Gabriel kinda guy.

Q: Hall of Fame?

A: I think he's in the Hall of Fame now.

http://www.nypost.com/p/sports/more_sports/serby_sunday_with_terry_bradshaw_WgvkieuXPDixL4MzP a5BfO

Maybe we're debating with each other about differen things.....

I'm not arguing with you about whether he will get in or not - there's no doubt in my mind that he will. 3 Super Bowls is enough using the current criteria, and 2 might be for a QB.

I'm arguing with you about whether he should get it in. In your opinion, should that be enough? Not in my opinion.

Kanata-Steeler
02-04-2011, 09:55 AM
Who cares what Warner, or anyone else thinks right now.
Of course Ben is NOT a "Hall Of Fame" yet, duh, i mean get real !
can we please just forget ALL the googled freekin' USELESS stats.
It's SuperBowl. Dan Marino has stats that challenge Mount Everest !, but did he get even 1 Ring ? Nooooooooooo .
Ben will have his hands full just trying to deal with GB's potent defensive rush's, not to mention,...
this game is a 50/50 game, its gonna be a rough climb for the Steelers.
God Speed Steelers tomorrow

Curtain_of_Steel
02-04-2011, 09:57 AM
Who is Kurt Warner? I heard the clip just a bit ago on ESPN Radio, and he sounded bitter still.

bob420
02-04-2011, 09:59 AM
Needs to carry a team? How about the 3 road playoff wins in 2005 before the SB.

208 yds 3 TD 0 INT 10.95 YPA 148.7
197 yds 2 TD 1 INT 8.21 YPA 95.3
275 yds 2 TD 0 INT 1 Rushing TD 9.48 YPA 124.9

8 total TD's 1 INT

Kanata-Steeler
02-04-2011, 10:01 AM
Warner, I thought, basically showed some luv and respect to Ben.
I don't know what u guys may be reading into this ? someone's pulling the woolnuts outta your panties 'fer sure
:)

Kanata-Steeler
02-04-2011, 10:03 AM
Needs to carry a team? How about the 3 road playoff wins in 2005 before the SB.

208 yds 3 TD 0 INT 10.95 YPA 148.7
197 yds 2 TD 1 INT 8.21 YPA 95.3
275 yds 2 TD 0 INT 1 Rushing TD 9.48 YPA 124.9

8 total TD's 1 INT

once again, stats are cool, but it has obviously been our "DEFENSE" that carried us mostly for the last few years -lol.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 10:03 AM
Needs to carry a team? How about the 3 road playoff wins in 2005 before the SB.

208 yds 3 TD 0 INT 10.95 YPA 148.7
197 yds 2 TD 1 INT 8.21 YPA 95.3
275 yds 2 TD 0 INT 1 Rushing TD 9.48 YPA 124.9

8 total TD's 1 INT

He pulled a Mark Sanchez in 2005. Pass well against defenses with 8 in the box hell bent on stopping the run.

Third Rail
02-04-2011, 10:08 AM
Warner should remember something before he gets lost in his own stats, particularly those in Arizona. He was throwing to Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin, two of the best YAC (Yards After the Catch) guys in the league, both of which had a knack for finding the end zone even on a short pass from mid-field. Not saying that Warner isn't great, but if he was making those throws to some of our receivers, chances are he doesn't have quite as many touchdowns.

I'm not knocking our receivers, just saying that Ben has made a lot of key throws that got us into the red zone, sometimes down to the one-yard line, and then we've often let runningbacks get us into the end zone (an obvious example would be Ben's pass to Heath in Super Bowl XLIII that led to the Gary Russel TD). Ben would have had two TDs in the Jets game if Hines and Mendy would have been able to take one more step on two throws.

Again, I'm not criticizing our guys, it's just that some stats - particularly TD and INT stats - can be very deceiving unless you actually watch the plays. I remember last season, people were gushing over Tony Romo for throwing checkdowns to Miles Austin, who would proceed to run for an extra 40 yards and score a TD.

bob420
02-04-2011, 10:12 AM
He pulled a Mark Sanchez in 2005. Pass well against defenses with 8 in the box hell bent on stopping the run.


And? What do you want him to do? Those teams challenged him to beat them by passing and he did. If they don't load the box, the Steelers will run all day and they won't throw.

Ben engineered one of if not the greatest TD drive in SuperBowl history. 6-8 84 yards, 4 yards rushing in 2 minutes.

madtowndrunkard
02-04-2011, 10:17 AM
Warner should remember something before he gets lost in his own stats, particularly those in Arizona. He was throwing to Larry Fitzgerald and Anquan Boldin, two of the best YAC (Yards After the Catch) guys in the league, both of which had a knack for finding the end zone even on a short pass from mid-field. Not saying that Warner isn't great, but if he was making those throws to some of our receivers, chances are he doesn't have quite as many touchdowns.

I'm not knocking our receivers, just saying that Ben has made a lot of key throws that got us into the red zone, sometimes down to the one-yard line, and then we've often let runningbacks get us into the end zone (an obvious example would be Ben's pass to Heath in Super Bowl XLIII that led to the Gary Russel TD). Ben would have had two TDs in the Jets game if Hines and Mendy would have been able to take one more step on two throws.

Again, I'm not criticizing our guys, it's just that some stats - particularly TD and INT stats - can be very deceiving unless you actually watch the plays. I remember last season, people were gushing over Tony Romo for throwing checkdowns to Miles Austin, who would proceed to run for an extra 40 yards and score a TD.

As soon as things broke down around Warner he became worthless. Much like Brady, Manning, and to a lesser extent Rodgers.

Brady has been great for so long because #1 he's a great QB and #2 Its' nearly impossible to break down his O-line. Manning come playoff time struggles to win, because great defenses can get to Manning. Rodgers doesn't have a lot of work to analyze but if you look at the games he struggled in.... Bears X2 and Lions this season they pressured him and disrupted the plays.

With Ben if the play breaks down, he still can get it done. Very few QB's in the history of the game can do that with any consistency.

Third Rail
02-04-2011, 10:18 AM
And? What do you want him to do? Those teams challenged him to beat them by passing and he did. If they don't load the box, the Steelers will run all day and they won't throw.

Ben engineered one of if not the greatest TD drive in SuperBowl history. 6-8 84 yards, 4 yards rushing in 2 minutes.

Ben was supposed to walk up to the defensive line and tell them whenever he was going to throw to make it fair. Didn't you know that? :chuckle:

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 10:21 AM
And? What do you want him to do? Those teams challenged him to beat them by passing and he did. If they don't load the box, the Steelers will run all day and they won't throw.

Ben engineered one of if not the greatest TD drive in SuperBowl history. 6-8 84 yards, 4 yards rushing in 2 minutes.

I give him credit for his game winning drive in SB XLIII. I alos give him credit for taking advantage of opportune defenses in 2005 in the playoffs.

That still doesn't mean he 'carried' his team.

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 10:22 AM
Maybe we're debating with each other about differen things.....

I'm not arguing with you about whether he will get in or not - there's no doubt in my mind that he will. 3 Super Bowls is enough using the current criteria, and 2 might be for a QB.

I'm arguing with you about whether he should get it in. In your opinion, should that be enough? Not in my opinion.

Agreed we simply have different opinons :drink:

My point was that Roethlisberger getting into Canton based on his current level of statistical accomlishment would not be some outlier that is unprecedented - getting back to the original point of the thread, Kurt Warner has his criteria fro whoi is canton worthy but those criterai have not been shared over the years by those voting to admit QBs and other players to Canton

If I was Kurt Warner I also probably would point to passer ratings in the Super Bowl as being the ultimate standard of QB excellence - Terry Bradshaw is in Canton and clearly disagrees based on Bradshaw's position (at least this week) on whether Roethlisbeger is Canton worthy

4xSBChamps
02-04-2011, 10:22 AM
... Ben was supposed to walk up to the defensive line and tell them whenever he was going to throw to make it fair...

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Goodellonthephone.jpg

"... I'll have the Competition Committee look into this idea..."

Third Rail
02-04-2011, 10:30 AM
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y272/Glensgages/football/Goodellonthephone.jpg

"... I'll have the Competition Committee look into this idea..."

:rofl:

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 10:33 AM
Agreed we simply have different opinons :drink:

My point was that Roethlisberger getting into Canton based on his current level of statistical accomlishment would not be some outlier that is unprecedented - getting back to the original point of the thread, Kurt Warner has his criteria fro whoi is canton worthy but those criterai have not been shared over the years by those voting to admit QBs and other players to Canton

If I was Kurt Warner I also probably would point to passer ratings in the Super Bowl as being the ultimate standard of QB excellence - Terry Bradshaw is in Canton and clearly disagrees based on Bradshaw's position (at least this week) on whether Roethlisbeger is Canton worthy

Agreed, homey! :drink:

I'm not a Ben hater like many would say. I like Ben, and I think he's good. I'm glad he's our QB. I hope he does enough outside his Super Bowls so I can justify his bust in Canton. (not that anybody needs my justification, but it would make me feel better)

With that said, I don't think he's as good as SteelerNation seems to think.

austinfrench76
02-04-2011, 10:36 AM
Ben is a winner. I don't care, though I'm sure he does, if he ever makes the HOF but if he brings 3 or hell possibly 5 trophies to the Steelers, why would we care? His record would speak for itself. And doing something that only a handful of QB's in the league has EVER done, he will be HOF worthy.

Although Warner is off his rocker, Ben carries this team every week.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 10:38 AM
Although Warner is off his rocker, Ben carries this team every week.

Did you watch the AFCG?

Curtain_of_Steel
02-04-2011, 10:40 AM
go win it Ben, get the MVP, put the matter to rest!

El Nino
02-04-2011, 10:41 AM
kiss ben's second ring you jerkoff, and remember that ben at least won 2, something you couldn't do

Farrior_roirraW
02-04-2011, 10:48 AM
Warner's still bitter that Ben ruined what would have been a great 4th quarter comeback in the SB, but Ben topped him with an even better drive under two minutes. (Ben also didn't throw a pick 6 in the game, either.)

That's all there is to this.

Karmaloop_Rep
02-04-2011, 10:48 AM
ben is best

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 10:51 AM
Agreed, homey! :drink:

I'm not a Ben hater like many would say. I like Ben, and I think he's good. I'm glad he's our QB. I hope he does enough outside his Super Bowls so I can justify his bust in Canton. (not that anybody needs my justification, but it would make me feel better)

With that said, I don't think he's as good as SteelerNation seems to think.

I can only speak for myself, but Ben's reputation among Steelers fans has to be enhanced by memories of how many Steelers teams crashed in the playoffs because O'Donnell, Tomczak, and Kordell were under center - if you attempt to back out what those teams lacked which teams since 2004 had it comes down to the QB

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 10:54 AM
I can only speak for myself, but Ben's reputation among Steelers fans has to be enhanced by memories of how many Steelers teams crashed in the playoffs because O'Donnell, Tomczak, and Kordell were under center - if you attempt to back out what those teams lacked which teams since 2004 had it comes down to the QB

Certainly.

That's why he's overrated, no doubt. Memories of bad quarterback play makes one appreciate good quarterback play.

Being better than O'Donnell, Tomzac, and Stewart, though, doesn't make a quarterback HOF worthy - unless you play for the Steelers, that is.

SteelWolf62
02-04-2011, 10:55 AM
Let's be honest, the Steelers have traditionally been a running team. But if needed, Ben can throw up some serious fantasy football stats when needed. It's not pretty, but you know what I'll take him over The Mannings, Brady, or Rivers (I have one ugly throwing motion) any day.

Are we sure Kurt's wife (Brenda?) is the one saying this since her hubby is ONE for three in Superbowls?

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 11:08 AM
Certainly.

That's why he's overrated, no doubt. Memories of bad quarterback play makes one appreciate good quarterback play.

Being better than O'Donnell, Tomzac, and Stewart, though, doesn't make a quarterback HOF worthy - unless you play for the Steelers, that is.

Or Packers (Starr) or Dolphins (Griese)

I did not say he was overrated :chuckle:- I said he is the obvious difference between having a team that loses AFC Championship games and one that wins Super Bowls - since being the starting QB on multiple winning Super Bowl teams gets QBs into Canton when their stats might not otherwise support it (I recall the only multiple winner who is not in is Jim Plunkett) being the X factor in turning a team into a multiple Super Bowl winner goes a long way towards getting #7 to Canton

bob420
02-04-2011, 11:09 AM
If Elway is a HOFer, Ben certainly is.

grward
02-04-2011, 11:25 AM
Certainly.

That's why he's overrated, no doubt. Memories of bad quarterback play makes one appreciate good quarterback play.

Being better than O'Donnell, Tomzac, and Stewart, though, doesn't make a quarterback HOF worthy - unless you play for the Steelers, that is.

He's overrated b/c he could win the Super Bowl when average QBs couldn't? :doh:

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 11:27 AM
:banging:Or Packers (Starr) or Dolphins (Griese)

I did not say he was overrated :chuckle:- I said he is the obvious difference between having a team that loses AFC Championship games and one that wins Super Bowls - since being the starting QB on multiple winning Super Bowl teams gets QBs into Canton when their stats might not otherwise support it (I recall the only multiple winner who is not in is Jim Plunkett) being the X factor in turning a team into a multiple Super Bowl winner goes a long way towards getting #7 to Canton

I said he was overrated. He's overrated by SteelerNation at least. Nationwide, he may be underrated. This is my opinion.

I understand why he's overrated due to the horrible quarterback play we've had to endure from Bubby Brister to Kent Grahm to Kordell Stewart. :banging:

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 11:30 AM
He's overrated b/c he could win the Super Bowl when average QBs couldn't? :doh:

I wouldn't call Kordell average...that would be overrating Kordell. Same goes for Kent Grahm and Mike Tomzac.

But yes. I think that's why Steelers fans appreciate him so much and overrate him.

MasterOfPuppets
02-04-2011, 11:44 AM
obviously warner has never looked at troy aikman's stats. he never had a 3500 yd season. he only had 1 season throwing over 20 td's. his average qb rating was 81.6 . but yet he was a first ticket hall of famer....:noidea:
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AikmTr00.htm

tube517
02-04-2011, 11:47 AM
Plunkett's early years with the Pats* hurt his HOF chances. He was pitiful in NE*. He was good w/the Raiders, I'll give him that.

MDSteel15
02-04-2011, 12:09 PM
Pittsburgh Att. Comp. Yds. TD Int.
Bradshaw 21 14 309 2 3

These are Terry's stats for Super Bowl XIV vs the Rams! 3 INTs! It doesn' matter what the stats are as long as you win the game KURT!!! Terry had 3 of them and was named MVP... Ben is a HOFer. Don't be sour because you lost the majority of your SB games...

mcg24
02-04-2011, 12:16 PM
Kurt is still having nightmares of Tampa.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 12:41 PM
If the Steelers were not traditionally a running team and wanted to adopt a more pass oriented offense, do you all think they would have drafted Ben? I'm not so sure.
Ben's QB abilities fit well in the Steelers' offensive schemes and offensive personnel. Look at last year when we went to a more passing offense. Ben's yardage when up but the avg number of TDs per game weren't higher and we didn't make the playoffs. It means that he doesn't make the difference alone.

Here are the stats.

2009 15 games 4328 yds 26 TDs 12 INTs 50 Sacks 2 Rushing TDs 3 Lost Fum
2010 12 games 3200 yds 17TDs 5 INTs 32 Sacks 2 Rushing TDs 3 L:ost Fum

I believe Ben is overrated in Steelers country, mostly because of the 2 SBs we won since he played and also because of the mediocre QBs the Steelers had since Bradshaw.

"In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed are Kings."

Funny that our current LBs who are arguably the best in the NFL don't receive the same praises.. Look how many LBs of the 00's have made the Steelers all-times team. None! It's because we've been spoiled at this position since the 70s.

TRH
02-04-2011, 01:10 PM
I wouldn't call Kordell average...that would be overrating Kordell. Same goes for Kent Grahm and Mike Tomzac.

But yes. I think that's why Steelers fans appreciate him so much and overrate him.


yep, yep. he's over-rated. This our 3rd SB he's led us to in six years, but he's over-rated. Gee, i wish we had a different QB. Is Brady Quinn still available? Maybe we can get Favre out of retirement? Hell, just re-do Batch's contract and give him $100 mil...i don't care how old he is.
Sheez. Peope are unbelievable.

pete74
02-04-2011, 01:24 PM
He's overrated b/c he could win the Super Bowl when average QBs couldn't? :doh:

ben thru 1 touchdown in 2 super bowls. i hardley consider that winning the game by himself. ben is a good qb but just a piece of the puzzle that makes up the steelers. put him on the browns and i gurentee you he wouldnt have a super bowl ring yet. i love ben and consider him a great QB but not elite.

if steelers win sunday and he throws 2 or more td's then that will throw him up there but he really needs to seperate himself. he hasnt played well at all this playoff season and needs to turn it up sunday. he is a great qb and hopefully he can do it

i dont understand why all you guys think ben has won all these games and playoff games. he is a key piece but the steelers won not ben

UF-Steeler
02-04-2011, 01:38 PM
ben thru 1 touchdown in 2 super bowls. i hardley consider that winning the game by himself. ben is a good qb but just a piece of the puzzle that makes up the steelers. put him on the browns and i gurentee you he wouldnt have a super bowl ring yet. i love ben and consider him a great QB but not elite.

if steelers win sunday and he throws 2 or more td's then that will throw him up there but he really needs to seperate himself. he hasnt played well at all this playoff season and needs to turn it up sunday. he is a great qb and hopefully he can do it

i dont understand why all you guys think ben has won all these games and playoff games. he is a key piece but the steelers won not ben

Isn't this true for majority of teams that win the Super Bowl? You don't go to the SB just because your QB carries you, usually. Majority of teams that won the SB have a respectable defense and some good offensive weapons.

Kurt Warner's argument is really just bitter. Didn't he have some of the best offensive weapons there were when he played with the Rams? Some of the best receivers in the league right now when he played with the Cards? He didn't carry that team, he definitely made them better though. The Cards got to the SB that year because their D was playing really well in the post season and Warner could throw the ball to Boldin and Fitzgerald.

When you look at the teams that won the Super Bowls, it is rare you find one person that carries a team. The whole team has to play well to win. Ben's performance in his second year may not have been amazing in the SB, but he did a lot to get us there. The guy is still young and in his prime, so the argument for Canton is really premature.

austinfrench76
02-04-2011, 02:14 PM
Did you watch the AFCG?

Every minute of it and as i stated, HE'S a WINNER! He won that game in teh 4th quarter. How many times did the Steelers pass in the 2nd half, 5?! Ben does carry the team when Arians and the team let's him and/or needs him to. He does everything he asked and more.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 02:16 PM
yep, yep. he's over-rated. This our 3rd SB he's led us to in six years, but he's over-rated. Gee, i wish we had a different QB. Is Brady Quinn still available? Maybe we can get Favre out of retirement? Hell, just re-do Batch's contract and give him $100 mil...i don't care how old he is.

You just had to take it to the next level....

I didn't say he wasn't good. If you look at my posts, I've admitted that he's good. I've also said I'm glad he's our quarterback. I didn't say Batch was as good as Ben.

In fact. all of his 'critics' will admit as such.

But....

I don't think he's HOF worthy (not yet anyway) - and the fact that we're talking about it shows he's overrated by Steelers fans.

I don't mean to knock Ben for this. I'm not a hater. It's not his fault. I'm not intending it to be an insult.

Lots of great players on the Steelers aren't HOF worthy in my opinion. Farrior won't make the HOF - he's still good. Hampton won't make the HOF - he's still good. Aaron Smith won't make the HOF - he's still good. Harrison probably won't even make the HOF - he's still good.

All of the above players are good, great even, but they won't make the HOF.

Ben probably will end up making the HOF because quarterbacks who win Super Bowls usually make it.

Sheez. Peope are unbelievable.

Look in the mirror.

You don't have to take my argument to the extreme - you can make a rational argument if you disagree with me.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 02:18 PM
Every minute of it and as i stated, HE'S a WINNER! He won that game in teh 4th quarter. How many times did the Steelers pass in the 2nd half, 5?! Ben does carry the team when Arians and the team let's him and/or needs him to. He does everything he asked and more.

You said he carried his team every game.

Sure he came through in the 4th. No one said he wasn't clutch.

He didn't carry the Steelers in that game, though.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 02:19 PM
i dont understand why all you guys think ben has won all these games and playoff games. he is a key piece but the steelers won not ben

:iagree:

:applaudit::hatsoff:

bob420
02-04-2011, 03:03 PM
The funny thing is that people are saying he will only get in because of the SB titles.

However, if he doesn't get hurt, throw in another 7 years of 3500 yds and 20 TD's and he is putting up close to 50,000 yds and 300 TD's.

Numbers are better than Jim Kelly, way better than Troy Aikman, same as Elway, Moon.

Throw in 2 SB titles(possibly 3) and he doesn't have to ever get back to the SB again.

Atlanta Dan
02-04-2011, 03:13 PM
ben thru 1 touchdown in 2 super bowls. i hardley consider that winning the game by himself. ben is a good qb but just a piece of the puzzle that makes up the steelers. put him on the browns and i gurentee you he wouldnt have a super bowl ring yet. i love ben and consider him a great QB but not elite.

if steelers win sunday and he throws 2 or more td's then that will throw him up there but he really needs to seperate himself. he hasnt played well at all this playoff season and needs to turn it up sunday. he is a great qb and hopefully he can do it

i dont understand why all you guys think ben has won all these games and playoff games. he is a key piece but the steelers won not ben

I do not believe the majority of posters here believe Roethlisberger has won all those games by himself any more than Griese, Aikman, Starr, Montana or Bradshaw won all their games by themselves.

The thread started with a discussion of whether Warner's metrics for QB success are valid and some evidence that what Warner regards as QB criteria for Canton are not those which have in fact been applied - QBs who win more games and Lombardis get credit for that when it comes time to determine if they are HOF worthy, regardles of whether or not they were the primary factor in those games being won

pitt0wns
02-04-2011, 03:24 PM
Why is there so much hate on Ben?

Remember the Cowher years when PIT had a great team and a shit QB? They couldn't win. Ben makes plays when it counts and wins games.

Sick of this Ben is average and Ben isn't up there with Brady/Manning.

Brady the last couple of playoff game choked hard. Manning has a horrible playoff record. If they were the keys to winning then why aren't they in the Super Bowl?

Great all-around TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS . END OF STORY.

Bettis was garbage and he is a HOF'r? What a joke! He couldn't outrun a senior citizen.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 03:36 PM
Why is there so much hate on Ben?

Remember the Cowher years when PIT had a great team and a shit QB? They couldn't win. Ben makes plays when it counts and wins games.

Sick of this Ben is average and Ben isn't up there with Brady/Manning.

Brady the last couple of playoff game choked hard. Manning has a horrible playoff record. If they were the keys to winning then why aren't they in the Super Bowl?

Great all-around TEAMS WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS . END OF STORY.

Bettis was garbage and he is a HOF'r? What a joke! He couldn't outrun a senior citizen.

I don't hate Ben but I'm not creaming my pants at the mere mention of his name either. He's a very good QB, not the best by any stretch, and he'll be in the HOF if he continues on this trend. I don't like his style, but I recognize he's a cluch QB and he's the best we've had since Bradshaw.
I also think he was an @sshole off the field. He's not a family member nor a personal friend so I don't care if he betters himself or not. All I'm asking of him is to help us win as many titles as possible and stay out of trouble so that the FO won't get rid of him.
This pretty much summarizes my opinion on Ben.

realdeal
02-04-2011, 03:40 PM
Curt Warner is a D-bag!! He's just jealous of BB. Have you seen his wife? Lol!!

pitt0wns
02-04-2011, 03:54 PM
I don't hate Ben but I'm not creaming my pants at the mere mention of his name either. He's a very good QB, not the best by any stretch, and he'll be in the HOF if he continues on this trend. I don't like his style, but I recognize he's a cluch QB and he's the best we've had since Bradshaw.
I also think he was an @sshole off the field. He's not a family member nor a personal friend so I don't care if he betters himself or not. All I'm asking of him is to help us win as many titles as possible and stay out of trouble so that the FO won't get rid of him.
This pretty much summarizes my opinion on Ben.

Off the field? Really? What has he done so bad off the field? Get the **** over it already, If he was charged then you could talk.

Bradshaw is the best? His numbers are not so great at all! Big Ben is the Steelers best all-time QB . end of story.

Ben is the Rocky Balboa of QB's in the NFL.

pete74
02-04-2011, 03:58 PM
I do not believe the majority of posters here believe Roethlisberger has won all those games by himself any more than Griese, Aikman, Starr, Montana or Bradshaw won all their games by themselves.

The thread started with a discussion of whether Warner's metrics for QB success are valid and some evidence that what Warner regards as QB criteria for Canton are not those which have in fact been applied - QBs who win more games and Lombardis get credit for that when it comes time to determine if they are HOF worthy, regardles of whether or not they were the primary factor in those games being won

look around and you will see many many many posts about Ben's record and playoff record. very rarley do you see anything about the steelers record in the playoffs

colescott1
02-04-2011, 04:02 PM
Ya'll can cheer for individual stats. I'll cheer for Lombardi's.

As far as comparisons to Brady in this TEAM sport, Brady has been in the NFL now for 11 years, and won 3 Superbowls. (Questionably now, I might add, due to Spygate).
Ben has been in for 7, and is on the verge of his 3rd.

Ben gets it done when the other pieces of the puzzle fail. He's a more efficient (Does more with less attempts), compared to any other active QB. If you don't say he kept us alive in the JETS game, scrambing for 3-4 cruical 1st downs, you must have watched a different game. Thats not "managing", thats winning.

plenewken
02-04-2011, 04:11 PM
Off the field? Really? What has he done so bad off the field? Get the **** over it already, If he was charged then you could talk.

Bradshaw is the best? His numbers are not so great at all! Big Ben is the Steelers best all-time QB . end of story.

Ben is the Rocky Balboa of QB's in the NFL.


You don't have to be a criminal to be an @sshole.
I didn't say Bradshaw is the best. I said Ben is the best QB we had since Bradshaw. Ben is not the best all-time Steelers QB.. He could become the most titled Steelers QB but this doesn't necessarily make him the best. I think he'll become also the best but he's not there yet.
Ben can certainly take a lot of hits and remain dangerous but I much prefer watching a QB throwing long/accurate passes and eluding sacks than one getting pounded day in and day out, even if he wins much more games than he loses.

GBpack2010
02-04-2011, 04:18 PM
What is Warner talking about? He only won 1 super bowl and he lost to Big Ben in the super bowl. He only had 4 good years in his career from 99-01 he was good then he didnt do anything again till 08 and 09. The guy was a good qb but I dont think he was in the top 20 all time best qbs.

cloppbeast
02-04-2011, 04:35 PM
I don't know why everyone is being critical of Warner's career and thinking that means something.

The NFL Network pays him to provide his opinion, and Warner doesn't have to be better than Ben to say he isn't HOF worthy yet.

Many of you are critical of lots of NFL players, but none of you could even make a roster. Does that mean your opinions don't count?

pitt0wns
02-04-2011, 04:36 PM
You don't have to be a criminal to be an @sshole.
I didn't say Bradshaw is the best. I said Ben is the best QB we had since Bradshaw. Ben is not the best all-time Steelers QB.. He could become the most titled Steelers QB but this doesn't necessarily make him the best. I think he'll become also the best but he's not there yet.
Ben can certainly take a lot of hits and remain dangerous but I much prefer watching a QB throwing long/accurate passes and eluding sacks than one getting pounded day in and day out, even if he wins much more games than he loses.

Do you know Ben personally? You judge ppl from the media? How do you know he is an @sshole?

stb_steeler
02-04-2011, 04:45 PM
Screw all those hasbeen's..Warner can run his mouth all he wants to, now that he's not a QB anymore. GO F'ing bag my groceries bag boy Mutha F'er.
Sorry....I never could stand him with all the whoa is me crap..:puke:
If we waited for morons like him to give Ben credit, it be along time!

harrison'samonster
02-04-2011, 04:54 PM
I do think it is early in Ben's career for media ppl to be discussing wether or not Ben is going to make it to the HOF. They have no idea what he's going to do next year, let alone the next few.

I think if the Steelers win this year, he'll be a lock. With what he's done so far in his career, he'll have to be pretty bad for the rest of his career and probably have some off-field issues to be kept out.

scsteeler
02-04-2011, 04:57 PM
More love for Roethlisberger, this time from a QB who lost to him in the Super Bowl

“I like Ben,” Warner told 620 KTAR in Phoenix. “I think Ben’s great and I think he’s a winner. And to me that speaks volumes for your legacy. But when you’re talking about the best quarterbacks in the league, you have to look at all the factors here.

“I mean, he won a Super Bowl and he was 8-23. But he won the Super Bowl and he gets that on his resume. But he was still 8-23.”

Warner is referring to Super Bowl XL, in which Roethlisberger completed nine of 21 passes for 123 yards and two interceptions. He also had seven rushing attempts for 25 yards and a touchdown.

In Super Bowl XLIII against Warner’s Cardinals, Roethlisberger completed 21 of 30 passes for 256 yards, one interception, and the game-winning touchdown pass to Santonio Holmes.

“I’m just waiting to see Ben as the guy that carries his team at some point in time,” Warner said. “The fortunate thing for him is he hasn’t had to do that. He carries them in the last two minutes. He makes some key plays. [He's] phenomenal out of the pocket and ad-libbing. But for me, if you go to the Hall of Fame, you have to be a guy who can carry your team week in and week out as a quarterback. That’s my opinion.”

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/02/04/kurt-warner-says-roethlisberger-not-a-hall-of-famer-yet/

WTF?

And we still have to hear from Steve Young this weekend



So Kurt is saying that so long as Ben does not run a pass happy offense he is not carrying his team? I can think of a lot of games that Ben has made Play after play long before the last 2 minutes that has lead to the Steelers winning and also to me it is being able to win the game on the Last few minutes of the game that matters cause so many QB's can not do this. Elway was one of the Best and winning the game in the last few minutes. Kurt Warner has 1 SB and Ben has 2. I know the First SB Ben won he was not the reason we won but He was the Reason we go that SB so Ben has carried his team but its all in the way you look at it.

HAWK
02-04-2011, 11:42 PM
Say what you want to people....there's been a lot of talking heads on the Tv this week claiming the Ben is an elite QB and already deserves the HOF. But there will always be a few detractors...that's life.

stb_steeler
02-04-2011, 11:44 PM
Say what you want to people....there's been a lot of talking heads on the Tv this week claiming the Ben is an elite QB and already deserves the HOF. But there will always be a few detractors...that's life.

I did hear Marshall Faulk say he should be......WOW!!!:coffee:

HAWK
02-04-2011, 11:47 PM
Well that solves it then. MF is anti-Steeler!!

El Nino
02-04-2011, 11:52 PM
Well that solves it then. MF is anti-Steeler!!

we beat his ass 2 years ago, he's still a sour grape

it's okay kurt, you still have your ONE ring. ben will have enough to cover his whole hand by the time he retires and by then nobody can deny he's a HOFer