PDA

View Full Version : Bettis and Dawson...your vote


SteelKnight
02-04-2011, 09:33 AM
OK. Try to be fair. I know we are Steeler fans.

In general, I feel the HOF is trying too hard now. Maybe they've run out of greats when Andre Reed, Tim Brown and Cris Carter are the highlights at receiver. (Maybe Reed deserves it).

I don't know how one evaluates an excellent center who wins no championships. Do we just go by word of mouth that people say he was hard to get by? IDK. If Dawson had been the center of a line that produced championships I would feel differently. I want him to get in because I'm a Steelers fan but honestly if it were another team, I'd say no.

For Bettis, yes...He provided years of good running. On his SB year, many say he was along for the ride...but in a few games we rode him. Because Ben made that tackle, it is a yes for me. If not, and we got no SB, I would have to say no...or at least make him wait.

The measure for HOF is supposed to be "Can the story of football be told without him?" I'm thinking for Bettis it is no but for Dawson it is yes so Bettis In, Dawson Out.

Curtain_of_Steel
02-04-2011, 11:10 AM
I just dont understand I guess how the nfl hall of fame works. Is it different from baseball.

As someone like Dawson in Baseball, certainlly wouldnt be a 1st ballot, and probably closer to a 4th time around guy, one who deserves it, but wasnt the epitomy of the position, so to speak. 10 probowls and top rbs behind him, sort of speaks for it self.

Bettis should as Faulk should not, yet. Martin should based on yards, but he did drag it on a bit

Curtain_of_Steel
02-04-2011, 11:39 AM
Martin didn't linger, I just looked him up, 10 years in the league. My bad.

I dont see how the 4 and 5 rb's dont get in the hall on this vote.

El Nino
02-04-2011, 11:42 AM
dawson if i had to pick

steeltheone
02-04-2011, 03:23 PM
Dawson was as good as the come at that position. As good as newer fans think Pouncey is now, he does not even compare at this point.

SteelKnight
02-04-2011, 03:50 PM
I just dont understand I guess how the nfl hall of fame works. Is it different from baseball.

As someone like Dawson in Baseball, certainlly wouldnt be a 1st ballot, and probably closer to a 4th time around guy, one who deserves it, but wasnt the epitomy of the position, so to speak. 10 probowls and top rbs behind him, sort of speaks for it self.


I am not taking anything away from Dawson because players say he was excellent and we always did have good running but I don't put much stock into probowls for linemen. They are not well know by everyone. Because there are no stats, once you make it people keep voting for you because they've heard you are good. Nick Mangold and Pouncey will likely keep making the ProBowl a lot.

For me, being the staple of a line for a championship team would be different.

I just think they are trying too hard. Dion and Falk are obvious choices. They shouldn't feel they should have a minimum quota.

The question is supposed to be "Can the story of football be told without the player?" I think the story of football could be told without Dawson. Even though the Steelers had great running, the running was irrelevant because it brought no championships so it doesn't matter how good Bam Morris and Barry Foster, etc. ran. Who cares? Without a championship, to impact the story of football, I guess you would have to have changed the image of the position or something.

Dawson was as good as the come at that position. As good as newer fans think Pouncey is now, he does not even compare at this point.

IDK. I really think HOF should be for "Legends". It's just hard to be a legend withouth a championship or being so dominant you changed how offenses or defenses planned for you or you caused rule changes. I guess I'm just conservative. i don't want HOF to just mean "Hey, he was pretty good."

BTW, I think Hines will be first ballot HOF now...especially if he can get 1 TD in this game and a win. He was already going to make it for being the most dominant WR blocker and forcing the rule change...but not necessarily first ballot. He was injured last SB so was not much of a factor (writers don't remember that stuff). He can stamp things with a nice performance here. First ballot for sure.

steeltheone
02-04-2011, 06:53 PM
Defenses had to plan for Dawson....Cowher depended on him heavily!

SH-Rock
02-04-2011, 06:55 PM
Bettis is not getting in looking at this year's class. He'll prob get in, in 2-5 years.

SteelKnight
02-04-2011, 07:40 PM
Defenses had to plan for Dawson....Cowher depended on him heavily!

Yeah. I guess that's cool. I guess he did at least help us win an AFC championship. By the way, he only had 7 pro bowls...not 10.

I just feel the story of football could be told without him.

They need to stop this 7 /year quota. I want it to be elite.

He belongs maybe in the Steelers HOF. The story of the Steelers (esp the Cowher years) cannot be told without him but the Story of the NFL could. I just hate it the way they do it. This way everyone will be in the HOF. I think for non stat positions with rare exception, Championships should be part of it. For stat positions, it is easy to see if someone leads the league for 5 years in a row in something.

By the way, Steeler fan love Jeff Hartings too. Does he belong in the HOF too? At least he won a SB. Wouldn't be able to put him in without Dawson. I say no to both now. maybe 10 years from now reconsider.

steelerjim58
02-04-2011, 07:47 PM
As great a guy as Jerome was, and as nimble as he was for a man his size, he only had 2-3 seasons of what I would consider HoF worthy. Dawson I believe was considered the best center of his era. IMO he should have been 1st ballot. For me though I would do away with all of the Halls of Fame. It's just to subjective, the fact that someone didn't vote for Willie Mays or Hank Aaron shows what a joke these things are. And for me a player would be in the first time or not at all. You are either HoF worthy or you are not.

SteelKnight
02-04-2011, 07:56 PM
As great a guy as Jerome was, and as nimble as he was for a man his size, he only had 2-3 seasons of what I would consider HoF worthy. Dawson I believe was considered the best center of his era. IMO he should have been 1st ballot. For me though I would do away with all of the Halls of Fame. It's just to subjective, the fact that someone didn't vote for Willie Mays or Hank Aaron shows what a joke these things are. And for me a player would be in the first time or not at all. You are either HoF worthy or you are not.

Good point on the first ballot thing. I can see if there are so many greats that you didn't make it but to be rejected 5 times because they can't decide if you are worthy is something else.

When they say "He's in the HOF" it should mean he is a " legend" ...not just a good player.

SteelKnight
02-04-2011, 07:58 PM
So would you guys put Faneca in the HOF? I say hell no. If he had stayed for all 3 SBs then yes...but not now. F him.

Faneca was mad that his buddy Russ Grim didn't get head coach. If he was so qualified, how come with so many openings, he still hasn't gotten a spot? He can't even be a coordinator. Tomlin was the right choice.

steeltheone
02-04-2011, 08:44 PM
Thats seven straight pro bowls for Dawson....Jeff Hartings was good, Dawson was great! Injuries ended his career after 170 straight games.

SteelKnight
02-04-2011, 10:51 PM
Thats seven straight pro bowls for Dawson....Jeff Hartings was good, Dawson was great! Injuries ended his career after 170 straight games.

After seeing the recommended All Time Steelers list and them liking Dawson so much that they moved him to guard so he could play with Webster, I think maybe Dawson DOES deserve it.

I posted a thread on the all time list.

stlrtruck
02-04-2011, 11:48 PM
Go with both. They made enough of an impact on the teams they played on that their careers were the icon of the team.

SteelKnight
02-05-2011, 01:19 AM
Go with both. They made enough of an impact on the teams they played on that their careers were the icon of the team.

Is it enough to be an icon of a team if the team does not produce or must one be an icon of the NFL?

Earlier I whined about Andre Reed but said he probably deserves it. I am more certain now. The story of the NFL requires one to know about the Bills losing 4 SBs in a row. One might ask "How were they good enough to win 4 straight AFC championships and lose a disasterous 4SBs in a row. That Story requires the name of Reed, Kelly, Thomas, Bruce Smith...etc.. OK. I would not feel the same if they never made it to a Super Bowl or maybe made it once and lost.

So the question is Can the Story of the NFL be told without Bettis and without Dawson?

Remember...it is not the story of the Steelers. It is the story of the NFL.

By this measure, Ben is already HOF material. The story of the NFL already can not be told without Ben...especially if he wins this year. One would have to explain how a team called the Steelers won 3 SBs in 6 years. That story revolves around Ben, Troy, Ward. especially once Ward retires...if Ben can win 2 more, he and Troy will be the only consistent pieces at some point.

tony hipchest
02-05-2011, 01:52 AM
OK. Try to be fair. I know we are Steeler fans.

In general, I feel the HOF is trying too hard now. Maybe they've run out of greats when Andre Reed, Tim Brown and Cris Carter are the highlights at receiver. (Maybe Reed deserves it).


.

chris carter is most certainly deserving (and im not opposed to the other 2 as well).

i followed reed his whole career, and wouldnt be opposed.

I don't know how one evaluates an excellent center who wins no championships. Do we just go by word of mouth that people say he was hard to get by? IDK. If Dawson had been the center of a line that produced championships I would feel differently. I want him to get in because I'm a Steelers fan but honestly if it were another team, I'd say no.
]

"word of mouth? you dont know how one evaluates a center"???

im guessing you have never watched him play. :coffee:

he was pretty damn good. some would even say superb.

The measure for HOF is supposed to be "Can the story of football be told without him?" is it possible you are getting a little too hung up on this single quote you have heard on the tee vee shows?

SteelKnight
02-05-2011, 02:28 AM
is it possible you are getting a little too hung up on this single quote you have heard on the tee vee shows?

Maybe ...but I think it is good. HOFs should be legends IMO. I don't think it should just be who was pretty good. Chris Carter? Meh...He was good but when Moss was there, Carter was sort of #2. Moss's presence helped him quite a bit. He was still good...I'd even say great...but not a legend to me. The Story of fooball does not need his name. Had they at least beat Atalanta and pulled off that SB, the story might need his name.

I did watch Dawson play but I wasn't necessarily focusing on the line. That's why i asked. We had a good line for several years and it wasn't just center. We'll know today if he gets it. The last 4 were "no".

IDK. I imagine there are tons of great linemen from the past that were on losing teams who we don't need to know about.

tony hipchest
02-05-2011, 03:13 AM
IDK. I imagine there are tons of great linemen from the past that were on losing teams who we don't need to know about.

kinda like the patriot's hannah? how bout the bungle's munoz? the oiler's matthews?

steeltheone
02-05-2011, 12:36 PM
How many offensive lineman would be in the "story" of the NFL? Just not a glamour position.

SteelKnight
02-05-2011, 01:06 PM
How many offensive lineman would be in the "story" of the NFL? Just not a glamour position.

Yeah...good point but at least if you win championships you can say the reason he was such a good runner or the reason he had so much time to throw was because of that lineman. Because of this maybe the linemen of league leading rushers or league leading passers (consistently...not one year) should probably be considered even without a SB win.

If mike Webster had played for the Saints but let's say the other 4 linemen sucked, I would think the story of football didn't need him.

Steelboy84
02-05-2011, 07:01 PM
It seems neither made the cut.

http://postgazette.com/pg/11036/1123401-100.stm

SteelKnight
02-05-2011, 10:01 PM
It seems neither made the cut.

http://postgazette.com/pg/11036/1123401-100.stm

Yeah ...thanks

It looks like none of the receivers made it either. I think that's fair. It reeked of desperation.

Dion, Faulk, Sabol, Dent, Sharp...those guys are deserving. I do think championships matter. it looks like one day Nmandi will be a HOFer. To me, he would be more of a legend on a championship team. Still, he will deserve it and have the stats to prove it (# receptions allowed for number of pass plays played...since they never throw to him).

PhantomJB93
02-05-2011, 10:15 PM
Bettis should have been first ballot, Dawson should get in eventually but there were enough other players that deserved to get in more than him this year.