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SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 03:43 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism

:noidea:

Okay...a bit of a broad offering...care to be more specific? Let me guess...you're all for the legalization of marijuana? Am I close?

SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 03:46 PM
Well, I just didn't know what physical features made him look like
he was 50; the only trait I could think of that was unusual was his
eyes. When I look at someone, I don't just look at their face only -
I look at their total person. And I haven't seem many 50-year olds
who looked liked RM, with his massive, ripped arms, slim waist
with massive legs. Just doesn't look like any 50-year old I know.

Okay thumper...what is your point? Or are you trying to be a contrarian? Why do you care that I think RM looks old in the face? Good lord!

thumper
05-05-2011, 04:43 PM
Okay thumper...what is your point? Or are you trying to be a contrarian? Why do you care that I think RM looks old in the face? Good lord!

Umm, OK, SteeleReign, I don't think it takes the act of a contrarian
to question the assertion that RM looks "50 years old." From where
I am sitting it is the person making that assertion that seems pretty
far off base.

Here he is.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200807/20080728rr_mendenhall_500.jpg

And giving you the benefit of the doubt, this pic focuses on his face
and doesn't give you a good look at this body which obviously is not
that of a 50-year-old dude.

I don't see any wrinkles in his face. I don't see anything that makes me
believe he looks 50 whatsoever. So why is it that you feel he looks 50?
Please explain, as I just don't see the logic behind such an assertion. He
looks like he's approaching mid-20s to me, which he is. So, your
assertion that he looks 50 seems off base.

Now, if I were to say that a flower looks like an M1 Abrams tank,
would you agree or point out that my assertion is inaccurate?

http://fredvidal.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/m1-abrams.jpg

http://flowers-show.com/images/2009/09/tb_mecsek_yellow_flower.jpg

bubbletownwr88
05-05-2011, 04:48 PM
http://freedomofphiladelphia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/stfu.jpg:chuckle:

MasterOfPuppets
05-05-2011, 04:52 PM
You seem to have a distaste for Christians. Being a Christian does not make one perfect, nor does it give them a right to judge or condemn others. It's a way of living one's life.

A Christian, a Muslim, Catholic, Atheist, or Antagonist all face the same human pressures and temptations. If any Christian claims himself to be better than another human then they are not acting in accordance with Christ's teachings.

Now, back to Mendy...he's wrong for saying what he said in the way he said it. OBL got what he had coming to him. Although I am a Christian, I am glad that justice was served. And Rashard needs to shut his face.

I think that is common ground, is it not?
what i have a distaste for is self righteous hypocrites who think they have a monopoly on morals. they talk a good game , but their actions speak differently.

Christian does not make one perfect,

Now, back to Mendy...he's wrong for saying what he

nor does it give them a right to judge or condemn others

OBL got what he had coming to him.

:popcorn:

SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 05:54 PM
Hmmwhat i have a distaste for is self righteous hypocrites who think they have a monopoly on morals. they talk a good game , but their actions speak differently.




:popcorn:

Look, I actually agree with you that many people, Christians included, can be hypocritical. I just balk at the suggestion that all Christians are hypocrites.

My statements about OBL and Rashard are not hypocritical. There is right and wrong, and Rashard was wrong in they way he expressed himself. I'm not saying he was morally wrong, but more socially. If he had thought more about the media repercussions of his tweet before he tweeted then he probably wouldn't have said anything. More a folly of youth than improper behaviour.

As for Osama, he got what was coming to him - justice, which is not a counter-Christian concept.

davidtrout
05-05-2011, 05:55 PM
Okay...a bit of a broad offering...care to be more specific? Let me guess...you're all for the legalization of marijuana? Am I close?

Of course he does. It's the pot party. Lol

I actually love the fundamental principles of libertarianism. Unfortunately, people as a whole, just cannot be trusted. A government based on personal responsibility would leave us with no roads to drive on, no hospitals, an even worse education system, porn would be free and plentiful, and we'd all have a heaping pile of good weed. Twenty years and five kids ago, I would have championed that movement.

SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 06:00 PM
Umm, OK, SteeleReign, I don't think it takes the act of a contrarian
to question the assertion that RM looks "50 years old." From where
I am sitting it is the person making that assertion that seems pretty
far off base.

Here he is.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200807/20080728rr_mendenhall_500.jpg

And giving you the benefit of the doubt, this pic focuses on his face
and doesn't give you a good look at this body which obviously is not
that of a 50-year-old dude.

I don't see any wrinkles in his face. I don't see anything that makes me
believe he looks 50 whatsoever. So why is it that you feel he looks 50?
Please explain, as I just don't see the logic behind such an assertion. He
looks like he's approaching mid-20s to me, which he is. So, your
assertion that he looks 50 seems off base.

Now, if I were to say that a flower looks like an M1 Abrams tank,
would you agree or point out that my assertion is inaccurate?

http://fredvidal.files.wordpress.com/2010/04/m1-abrams.jpg

http://flowers-show.com/images/2009/09/tb_mecsek_yellow_flower.jpg

My point, thumper, is that it is my opinion. Why do you care? Why do you feel the need to argue, link to photos, and debate my opinion on such a meaningless topic?

It seems to me that you are impressed with your own intellect and denigrate those that dare have an OPINION counter to yours.

finesward
05-05-2011, 08:28 PM
Okay...a bit of a broad offering...care to be more specific? Let me guess...you're all for the legalization of marijuana? Am I close?

I'm not going to summarize an entire political party because you don't want to do the work. FYI I don't smoke marijuana but I'm not opposed to legalizing it as I think the prohibition of it is as mundane as the prohibition of alcohol. How about you tell me why I should be a Christian and I'll tell you why you should be a Libertarian?

You will never win an argument that alcohol is safer or somehow better for society than marijuana, and that's why marijuana is illegal. Your confusing legality with morality. If you think people who drink and smoke are immoral then this country was founded by immoral people.

And please don't try to make this about legalization. You decided to use it as a discrediting attack against me and the libertarian party. To me you sound like what MOP has you pegged as, full of snide judgment and hypocrisy.

I actually love the fundamental principles of libertarianism. Unfortunately, people as a whole, just cannot be trusted. A government based on personal responsibility would leave us with no roads to drive on, no hospitals, an even worse education system, porn would be free and plentiful, and we'd all have a heaping pile of good weed. Twenty years and five kids ago, I would have championed that movement.

Yeah it would be so bad if people had to actually walk or ride their bike to school/work, eat better food and take care of their bodies more, learn skills from apprenticing, (well porn is already free and plentiful, it's called the internet buddy just how old are you? lol ), and I think a lot of people would be wayyy less stressed out (thus healthier) if they had a big pile of good dope. It is medicinally relevant.

Keep thinking politicians are doing whats best for our future, for your kids...why change what ain't broke right??? 3 billion impoverished, 1 billion overweight....

ricardisimo
05-05-2011, 09:04 PM
Wow...you sound just about as insensitive as Rashard. Christian don't celebrate murder. Jesus was about justice, not vengeance. The difference lies in the intent. Jesus would not have celebrated OBL's death & therefore, nor should we. However, that doesn't mean we can't find some relief in the knowledge that justice has been served.
First of all, I'm not sure that Rashard was "insensitive" in any way, unless refusing to parrot the party line is insensitive. He didn't say that anyone's death was meaningless, or their lives a lie, or anything of the sort. You and others need to think about that, I'd say.

Secondly, how do we know justice has been served? Just killing people is justice? There will obviously be no trial now, so we'll never know if the government fed us a load or not.
As for Osama, he got what was coming to him - justice, which is not a counter-Christian concept.
My understanding (admittedly limited) is that Christ was quite clear and quite explicit about the nature of justice in his realm, and that unlike the Old Testament, which simply restated the Code of Hammurabi's "an eye for an eye" calculus, the New Testament told everyone to turn the other cheek. Period. How does that jibe with the bin Laden assassination?

SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 10:03 PM
First of all, I'm not sure that Rashard was "insensitive" in any way, unless refusing to parrot the party line is insensitive. He didn't say that anyone's death was meaningless, or their lives a lie, or anything of the sort. You and others need to think about that, I'd say.

Secondly, how do we know justice has been served? Just killing people is justice? There will obviously be no trial now, so we'll never know if the government fed us a load or not.

My understanding (admittedly limited) is that Christ was quite clear and quite explicit about the nature of justice in his realm, and that unlike the Old Testament, which simply restated the Code of Hammurabi's "an eye for an eye" calculus, the New Testament told everyone to turn the other cheek. Period. How does that jibe with the bin Laden assassination?

Fair point. I would agree that RM wasn't insensitive, at least not intentionally. Some would argue that his comments may have been insensitive to the victims of OBL. However, I would not argue that point. I think he simply was too naive to realize that his comments would start a fire. Fairly or not.

As for Jesus' view on the take down of OB...Jesus' teachings were against murder, not war. There are many biblical examples of God using war to stamp out sin. Now, we can debate the categorization of the Seal Team operation ad nauseum...you claim it to be an assassination...only a small handful of people know the truth.

"Turn the other cheek" is a teaching that is to guide us in our interpersonal relationships, not as a governmental edict. The Bible does approach the idea of governmental leadership & personal behaviour separately & specifically. They are not one in the same.

SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 10:10 PM
Of course he does. It's the pot party. Lol

I actually love the fundamental principles of libertarianism. Unfortunately, people as a whole, just cannot be trusted. A government based on personal responsibility would leave us with no roads to drive on, no hospitals, an even worse education system, porn would be free and plentiful, and we'd all have a heaping pile of good weed. Twenty years and five kids ago, I would have championed that movement.

Yep. I agree with many of the ideals of libertarianism too. But, as you say, much of the country has become lazy. Thanks to this "nanny" state mentality that began with FDR. Unfortunately, unless we move all the hard-working do-it-yourselfers to Texas & secede, we are stuck with what we've got....which ain't too bad, but could be a little better.

ricardisimo
05-05-2011, 10:11 PM
Fair point. I would agree that RM wasn't insensitive, at least not intentionally. Some would argue that his comments may have been insensitive to the victims of OBL. However, I would not argue that point. I think he simply was too naive to realize that his comments would start a fire. Fairly or not.

As for Jesus' view on the take down of OB...Jesus' teachings were against murder, not war. There are many biblical examples of God using war to stamp out sin. Now, we can debate the categorization of the Seal Team operation ad nauseum...you claim it to be an assassination...only a small handful of people know the truth.

"Turn the other cheek" is a teaching that is to guide us in our interpersonal relationships, not as a governmental edict. The Bible does approach the idea of governmental leadership & personal behaviour separately & specifically. They are not one in the same.
I haven't even begun to touch the government on this one, and I'm sure I have many, many opinions on that. We're simply discussing the reaction to the assassination by large numbers of predominantly Christian Americans, Rashard's opinions about that reaction, and the backlash against Rashard. I submit that his stance is one of the few principled ones I've seen. Everything else is just ugliness.

We're not at war with Pakistan, so I'd keep clear of categorizing an assault on a private residence by black ops in Pakistani territory as just regular old warfare. I still say Jesus would've just dropped nukes.

SteeleReign
05-05-2011, 10:17 PM
I haven't even begun to touch the government on this one, and I'm sure I have many, many opinions on that. We're simply discussing the reaction to the assassination by large numbers of predominantly Christian Americans, Rashard's opinions about that reaction, and the backlash against Rashard. I submit that his stance is one of the few principled ones I've seen. Everything else is just ugliness.

We're not at war with Pakistan, so I'd keep clear of categorizing an assault on a private residence by black ops in Pakistani territory as just regular old warfare. I still say Jesus would've just dropped nukes.

"Predominantly Christian Americans"? Where has that stat been verified? I know as many non-christians as I do christians that feel relieved that OBL was served justice. You can call it an assassination if you wish, but that's another debate.

We didn't claim to be at war with Pakistan. In case you missed it, this "war" has no boundaries, no flags, no uniforms or glory. This is an ugly war that will likely never end. It is anything but "regular old warfare."

I'll ignore your ridiculous last comment.

ricardisimo
05-06-2011, 02:44 AM
You're kidding, right?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Pew_religion_in_america_pie.png
My ridiculous last comment, huh? Whatever, dude. Happy cinco de mayo.

MasterOfPuppets
05-06-2011, 07:07 AM
Scientific Poll: 84% Reject Official 9/11 Story
Only 16% now believe official fable according to New York Times/CBS News poll
Truth Movement has the huge majority of opinion
How will the Bush Cabal react?
Steve Watson & Alex Jones / Prisonplanet.com | October 14 2006 (http://prisonplanet.com/)

A monumental new scientific opinion poll has emerged which declares that only 16% of people in America now believe the official government explanation of the September 11th 2001 terror attacks.
According to the new New York Times/CBS News poll, (http://www.angus-reid.com/polls/index.cfm/fuseaction/viewItem/itemID/13469) only 16% of Americans think the government is telling the truth about 9/11 and the intelligence prior to the attacks:
"Do you think members of the Bush Administration are telling the truth, are mostly telling the truth but hiding something, or are they mostly lying?
Telling the truth 16%
Hiding something 53%
Mostly lying 28%
Not sure 3%"
The 84% figure mirrors other recent polls on the same issue. A Canadian Poll (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/September2006/120906_b_Poll.htm) put the figure at 85%. A CNN poll (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/november2004/111104cnnpoll.htm) had the figure at 89%. Over 80% supported the stance of Charlie Sheen (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2006/240306supportsheen.htm) when he went public with his opinions on 9/11 as an inside job.
A recent CNN poll found that the percentage of Americans who blame the Bush administration for the September 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington rose from almost a third to almost half (http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/September2006/110906_b_Bush.htm) over the past four years. This latest poll shows that that figure has again risen exponentially and now stands at well over three quarters of the population.
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/October2006/141006poll.htm

:noidea:

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 07:12 AM
You're kidding, right?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d8/Pew_religion_in_america_pie.png
My ridiculous last comment, huh? Whatever, dude. Happy cinco de mayo.

If you believe that 80% of Americans are truly Christian in behaviour, not by label, then you likely don't know what the biblical concept of a Christian is.

The government has been asking it's populace to lay claim to a religion in various forms and surveys for decades. Many claim to be Christian because they believe in God and have been told that's what they are. Many have no concept as to what the word means, or stepped into a church in their lives.

So, to suggest that 80% of Americans are living, thinking, and behaving according to the biblical description of a Christian is naive.

I think we can take different paths to the same conclusion. RM took a moral stance on an issue that got him in hot water. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I do believe he has every right to think that way. My contention is that he made a social error, not a moral one.

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 07:22 AM
:noidea:

Interesting, but it doesn't tell us anything. I happen to think that it is all related to the mob mentality that was created during the election. Bush became the whipping boy & all things related to him have been villianized.

Are they hiding something? Sure. Our government isn't required to tell us everything it's doing to keep our country safe, nor should they. I can assure you that the Obama administration, and every one to follow, will hide things from the populace.

I love the guy's TV show, but do you really think using Charlie Sheen as a prop to prove a point is a good idea? Not exactly "the key witness."

lookitthaaat32
05-06-2011, 08:10 AM
http://www.infowars.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/

This story seems to be sprouting legs and im very curious to see how this all turns out...but this guys credentials are huuuge....

now that one has come forward,
there will be more

bet on it....

ricardisimo
05-06-2011, 10:29 AM
If you believe that 80% of Americans are truly Christian in behaviour, not by label, then you likely don't know what the biblical concept of a Christian is.

The government has been asking it's populace to lay claim to a religion in various forms and surveys for decades. Many claim to be Christian because they believe in God and have been told that's what they are. Many have no concept as to what the word means, or stepped into a church in their lives.

So, to suggest that 80% of Americans are living, thinking, and behaving according to the biblical description of a Christian is naive.

I think we can take different paths to the same conclusion. RM took a moral stance on an issue that got him in hot water. I don't necessarily agree with him, but I do believe he has every right to think that way. My contention is that he made a social error, not a moral one.
You're not allowed to decide who's "really" a Christian and who's not. That's not only arrogant but also a truly stinky, messy can of worms you're opening.

For the record, Rashard calls himself a Christian, but I have my doubts, seeing how thoughtful his response to this assassination was. Maybe he's Hindu or something, and just doesn't know it yet.

steelax04
05-06-2011, 10:46 AM
http://www.infowars.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/

This story seems to be sprouting legs and im very curious to see how this all turns out...but this guys credentials are huuuge....

now that one has come forward,
there will be more

bet on it....

It's funny how the conspiracy folks call people "sheep" but then throw around articles about people with questionable credentials as "fact." I find it troubling that a man with "huuuge" credentials, the first thing he lists on his own website is that he's a critically acclaimed author of fiction books.

What he's saying is very moving and could very well be true, but the hypocrisy from those that "think" instead of being "sheep" undermines what they're trying to achieve. You can't just be critical and ask tough questions of those that differ from your opinion.

ebsteelers
05-06-2011, 10:53 AM
this is what sucks about the office, and lock out, this story is dead, yet it still keeps getting new posts, like its going out of style.... and it seems like it went away from the orginal idea of the thread

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 10:56 AM
http://www.infowars.com/top-us-government-insider-bin-laden-died-in-2001-911-a-false-flag/

This story seems to be sprouting legs and im very curious to see how this all turns out...but this guys credentials are huuuge....

now that one has come forward,
there will be more

bet on it....

Interesting stuff. Let me just say that it is just as likely that Dr. Pieczenik' story is made-up fiction as is the government's. It is impossible for any of us to know the truth. But Dr. Pie certainly has much to gain from his assertions - financially.

He's certainly makes a somewhat convincing case, but the cover-up is so far-reaching that I just can't see it staying secret. Due to the vast number of people that would have to be involved to make this conspiracy work, it seems almost impossible that something/anything wouldn't have been leaked by now.

:noidea:

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 11:08 AM
You're not allowed to decide who's "really" a Christian and who's not. That's not only arrogant but also a truly stinky, messy can of worms you're opening.

For the record, Rashard calls himself a Christian, but I have my doubts, seeing how thoughtful his response to this assassination was. Maybe he's Hindu or something, and just doesn't know it yet.

I'm not making that decision. I would think that Christ would be the one who defines what his followers believe and how they behave. I'm simply telling you what Jesus teaches in the Bible.

.

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 11:11 AM
this is what sucks about the office, and lock out, this story is dead, yet it still keeps getting new posts, like its going out of style.... and it seems like it went away from the orginal idea of the thread

Yeah, not much football talk in here...but it's still thought-provoking convo. I don't think it's nasty or out of control. For the most part, all posters respect each other and make interesting points.

As soon as we get closer to some real football all this other stuff will go away.

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 11:17 AM
It's funny how the conspiracy folks call people "sheep" but then throw around articles about people with questionable credentials as "fact." I find it troubling that a man with "huuuge" credentials, the first thing he lists on his own website is that he's a critically acclaimed author of fiction books.

What he's saying is very moving and could very well be true, but the hypocrisy from those that "think" instead of being "sheep" undermines what they're trying to achieve. You can't just be critical and ask tough questions of those that differ from your opinion.

Yeah, the Doc surely has something to gain from his stories. He does make an interesting case, but I found it a bit telling that the main page of his website was the only thing we saw for almost the entire interview. Seemed a bit commercial.

ebsteelers
05-06-2011, 11:23 AM
Yeah, not much football talk in here...but it's still thought-provoking convo. I don't think it's nasty or out of control. For the most part, all posters respect each other and make interesting points.

As soon as we get closer to some real football all this other stuff will go away.

cant argue with that

MasterOfPuppets
05-06-2011, 02:46 PM
Interesting, but it doesn't tell us anything. I happen to think that it is all related to the mob mentality that was created during the election. Bush became the whipping boy & all things related to him have been villianized.

Are they hiding something? Sure. Our government isn't required to tell us everything it's doing to keep our country safe, nor should they. I can assure you that the Obama administration, and every one to follow, will hide things from the populace.

I love the guy's TV show, but do you really think using Charlie Sheen as a prop to prove a point is a good idea? Not exactly "the key witness."
they may not be required to " tell us everything" , but they are required to abide by the constitution . the very same constitution they have disregarded on several occasions all under the guise of "keeping us safe" from terrorist.
*see quote in my sig below *

if you want an even better example of "mob mentality" , look at the way 99% of the non-muslim world views ALL muslims as terrorist ... slogans such as "the only good muslim is a dead muslim ", has become quite popular ...:popcorn:


The cost of bin Laden: $3 trillion over 15 years

What do we have to show for that tab? Two wars that continue to occupy 150,000 troops and tie up a quarter of our defense budget; a bloated homeland-security apparatus that has at times pushed the bounds of civil liberty; soaring oil prices partially attributable to the global war on bin Laden's terrorist network; and a chunk of our mounting national debt, which threatens to hobble the economy unless lawmakers compromise on an unprecedented deficit-reduction deal.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_exclusive/20110506/pl_yblog_exclusive/the-cost-of-bin-laden-3-trillion-over-15-years

now look at who has made out like bandits since the W.O.T. started .... oil companies , defense contractors . civilian contractors like haliburton , blackwater,...etc

thumper
05-06-2011, 04:17 PM
My point, thumper, is that it is my opinion. Why do you care? Why do you feel the need to argue, link to photos, and debate my opinion on such a meaningless topic?

It seems to me that you are impressed with your own intellect and denigrate those that dare have an OPINION counter to yours.

I am impressed with myself. I rock. Ain't I cool? The point is that
you made such an inaccurate assertion and I have problems with
"opinions" that are so super obviously wrong. And it is tied into the
fact that you don't like RM's opinions so you are stretching (understatement)
to find something else to knock the guy on, but that very thing you assert
happens to be wildly inaccurate. He looks 50 years old? That would be
like me saying Obama looks like a 3'-tall white midget. It's just not
accurate. Why you would choose to make such an obviously inaccurate
claim is beyond my understanding.

Look, here is a 50-year-old!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200901/200090131wap_mendenall2b_500.jpg

ricardisimo
05-06-2011, 04:20 PM
I have no idea who this Pieczenik fellow is, nor do I care. I try stressing this to people, whether they are on the "Left" obsessing over 9/11, or on the "Right" obsessing over Obama's birthplace: There is no lack of evidence that the U.S. government doesn't care about you and I in the least, and that they will lie to us about everything. Why one would focus exclusively on one peculiar instance, while ignore the continuous, non-stop character of its abuse, neglect, corruption and lies is beyond me.

You should be reading the Bible less and Nietzsche more:
Everything the State says is a lie, and everything it has it has stolen.

MattsMe
05-06-2011, 04:33 PM
You should be reading the Bible less and Nietzsche more:

I've read both. (More than once) Friedrich had the better facial hair.

thumper
05-06-2011, 06:39 PM
There is no lack of evidence that the U.S. government doesn't care about you and I in the least, and that they will lie to us about everything. Why one would focus exclusively on one peculiar instance, while ignore the continuous, non-stop character of its abuse, neglect, corruption and lies is beyond me.

You should be reading the Bible less and Nietzsche more:

:tt02:

thumper
05-06-2011, 06:49 PM
http://www.ae911truth.org/

I see no one is challenging these true experts on the subject.

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 07:27 PM
I am impressed with myself. I rock. Ain't I cool? The point is that
you made such an inaccurate assertion and I have problems with
"opinions" that are so super obviously wrong. And it is tied into the
fact that you don't like RM's opinions so you are stretching (understatement)
to find something else to knock the guy on, but that very thing you assert
happens to be wildly inaccurate. He looks 50 years old? That would be
like me saying Obama looks like a 3'-tall white midget. It's just not
accurate. Why you would choose to make such an obviously inaccurate
claim is beyond my understanding.

Look, here is a 50-year-old!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/images/200901/200090131wap_mendenall2b_500.jpg

Wow...seriously? You're making your stand on my obvious exaggeration of RM's appearance? NO! He doesn't look 50, but to me, he looks quite a bit older than his 23 years. It was a tongue-in-cheek exaggeration directed at another poster. Give it a rest....please...:banging:

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 07:31 PM
I have no idea who this Pieczenik fellow is, nor do I care. I try stressing this to people, whether they are on the "Left" obsessing over 9/11, or on the "Right" obsessing over Obama's birthplace: There is no lack of evidence that the U.S. government doesn't care about you and I in the least, and that they will lie to us about everything. Why one would focus exclusively on one peculiar instance, while ignore the continuous, non-stop character of its abuse, neglect, corruption and lies is beyond me.

You should be reading the Bible less and Nietzsche more:

Yet, we live in arguably the greatest nation to ever exist on this planet.

I can't & won't argue that corruption exists in our government. But, I would argue against them "lying to us about everything," and "continuous, non-stop abuse, neglect, lies, and corruption." I honestly don't know why you continue to call America your home if you believe that our gov't is that far gone.

I'll stick with the Bible...thanks.

finesward
05-06-2011, 08:40 PM
Yet, we live in arguably the greatest nation to ever exist on this planet.



Seriously? Based on what exactly?

The majority of the country eats complete and utter crap, child obesity is on the rise, the next generation of children are the first in a very long time to have a lower life expectancy than their parents, inflation is rising and wages are staying low, jobs are scarce, we produce more lawyers per capita than any nation in the world, we make nothing anymore besides cars (and car companies will soon be under foreign control soon enough) education is a failing system built in the same manner as our government, the gap between wealthy and poor is growing wider and wider, and it seems with each new "terrorist attack" or shooting, or crisis, one of our freedoms is being challenged and taken away in the courts. It's amazing to me that people have such blind patriotism. I never liked having to read the national anthem and singing the star spangled banner as a child and that was before I even knew anything about our government.

Have you even traveled outside of the U.S?

finesward
05-06-2011, 08:47 PM
I can't & won't argue that corruption exists in our government. But, I would argue against them "lying to us about everything," and "continuous, non-stop abuse, neglect, lies, and corruption." I honestly don't know why you continue to call America your home if you believe that our gov't is that far gone.

I'll stick with the Bible...thanks.

again, you seem to be taking quotes out of context... he said "that they will lie to us about everything" meaning there are no boundaries to what they will lie about.

And the other quote he is simply talking about everyone's obsession with the "big story" all the media is clamoring about. Everyone watches the same news feed, everyone hears the same commentary either left or right leaning, and bicker about themselves until the next news story hits. And after each tragedy or controversy there is always a politician who is ready to create a new law or take a freedom away so that it never happens again.. That is until the next time it happens.

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 09:18 PM
Seriously? Based on what exactly?

The majority of the country eats complete and utter crap, child obesity is on the rise, the next generation of children are the first in a very long time to have a lower life expectancy than their parents, inflation is rising and wages are staying low, jobs are scarce, education is a failing system built in the same manner as our government, the gap between wealthy and poor is growing wider and wider, and it seems with each new "terrorist attack" or shooting, or crisis, one of our freedoms is being challenged and taken away in the courts. It's amazing to me that people have such blind patriotism. I never liked having to read the national anthem and singing the star spangled banner as a child and that was before I even knew anything about our government.

Have you even traveled outside of the U.S?

I've spent a lot of time outside the country & have seen the good & bad of many societies and governments, having spent many years in the military. Which country would you suggest is better?

SteeleReign
05-06-2011, 09:21 PM
again, you seem to be taking quotes out of context... he said "that they will lie to us about everything" meaning there are no boundaries to what they will lie about.

And the other quote he is simply talking about everyone's obsession with the "big story" all the media is clamoring about. Everyone watches the same news feed, everyone hears the same commentary either left or right leaning, and bicker about themselves until the next news story hits. And after each tragedy or controversy there is always a politician who is ready to create a new law or take a freedom away so that it never happens again.. That is until the next time it happens.

Uhhh....I've taken nothing out of context. I know exactly what he means & I don't disagree that these things happen. I contend that they are not "always" and "all the time."

finesward
05-06-2011, 09:55 PM
Uhhh....I've taken nothing out of context. I know exactly what he means & I don't disagree that these things happen. I contend that they are not "always" and "all the time."

Please show what post you are quoting "always" and "all the time" because he never said that in the post you replied to

Originally Posted by ricardisimo View Post
I have no idea who this Pieczenik fellow is, nor do I care. I try stressing this to people, whether they are on the "Left" obsessing over 9/11, or on the "Right" obsessing over Obama's birthplace: There is no lack of evidence that the U.S. government doesn't care about you and I in the least, and that they will lie to us about everything. Why one would focus exclusively on one peculiar instance, while ignore the continuous, non-stop character of its abuse, neglect, corruption and lies is beyond me.

You should be reading the Bible less and Nietzsche more:

If you read carefully he uses continuous and non-stop to describe the character of the U.S government. The character he refers to is that they don't have you or I in it's best interest. Maybe at the beginning when it was created, but everything since (continuous, non-stop) has been undermining the average citizen and favoring the elite few. Can you at least admit there is favoritism shown to banks (bailouts) military contractors (war=big money) oil companies, corporations, etc... ?

And has the military taken you to every country in the world? And have you spent enough time in each country to adequately learn it's history, culture, and government? Neither of us can jump in our delorian and travel back in time to previous civilizations so there is no way to argue we live in the greatest country (or civilization) to ever exist in the history of mankind. That just seems like an extremely asinine (not to mention ignorant) statement. Not one that can ever be argued, and yet here you are putting that out there... Again, blind patriotism is something I just don't understand. :noidea:

I traveled to central and south america when I was younger and spent some time with and learning about the indigenous people in the san blas islands of panama, and in the sierra nevada mountains of colombia (whose empire stretched the whole length of the andes) They live today a lot like they lived hundreds of years ago (minus a few additions, coca cola being a common one lol) And I can tell you they live much longer lives, seem happier, more respectful, and treat each other more civilized than we do...yet you might consider the way they live savage because they live so differently than we do. Hell, you may even want to "save" them like those that tried to conquer (and subsequently killed) them by telling them about Jesus. Don't waste your time. They don't need to be saved by anyone. They are more spiritual than (by your own admission) many of the Christians today.

I ask again, what are you basing your opinion that we live in the greatest country to ever exist in the history of man? I really would like to know.

MasterOfPuppets
05-07-2011, 12:27 AM
I honestly don't know why you continue to call America your home if you believe that our gov't is that far gone.
.
he's been told to get out on many occasions.... he just won't leave.. he's dug in like a tick on a hound dogs ass...:hunch:

pete74
05-07-2011, 04:27 AM
Seriously? Based on what exactly?

The majority of the country eats complete and utter crap, child obesity is on the rise, the next generation of children are the first in a very long time to have a lower life expectancy than their parents, inflation is rising and wages are staying low, jobs are scarce, we produce more lawyers per capita than any nation in the world, we make nothing anymore besides cars (and car companies will soon be under foreign control soon enough) education is a failing system built in the same manner as our government, the gap between wealthy and poor is growing wider and wider, and it seems with each new "terrorist attack" or shooting, or crisis, one of our freedoms is being challenged and taken away in the courts. It's amazing to me that people have such blind patriotism. I never liked having to read the national anthem and singing the star spangled banner as a child and that was before I even knew anything about our government.

Have you even traveled outside of the U.S?

are you mentally ill? we have the largest economy in the world and by far more millionars then any other country in the world. you really think cars are the only thing made here? wow are you misinformed. as for obesity, its a problem but not as large of one as the millions of people starving to death everyday in africa, india and many other places around the world. go live in Egypt for 5 years then move to Isreal for another 5 and if your still alive after that come back here and tell me how you feel

finesward
05-07-2011, 08:15 AM
are you mentally ill? we have the largest economy in the world and by far more millionars then any other country in the world. you really think cars are the only thing made here? wow are you misinformed. as for obesity, its a problem but not as large of one as the millions of people starving to death everyday in africa, india and many other places around the world. go live in Egypt for 5 years then move to Isreal for another 5 and if your still alive after that come back here and tell me how you feel

Yes we have the most millionaires and billionaires, do you think they made all that money without the help of your elected officials? True we have the largest economy. But in the same breath we also have the largest deficit and countries like china and japan own about a 1/3 of our debt, and do they have our best interests in mind?

And I'm so sorry we also make airplanes, military machinery, and a handful of other things. Ask anyone who has worked in a factory if jobs are on the rise or decline.

Three weeks ago, Dawn Zimmer became a statistic. Laid off from her job assembling trucks at Freightliner's plant in Portland, Ore., she and 800 of her colleagues joined a long line of U.S. manufacturing workers who have lost jobs in recent years. A total of 3.2 million -- one in six factory jobs -- have disappeared since the start of 2000.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/economy/2007-04-20-4155011268_x.htm

And thanks for illustrating my point about obesity. There are now more overweight people in the world than hungry. And as many people there are dieing of starvation there are just as many dieing of heart disease, diabetes, stroke, etc...

SteeleReign
05-07-2011, 09:29 AM
Please show what post you are quoting "always" and "all the time" because he never said that in the post you replied to



If you read carefully he uses continuous and non-stop to describe the character of the U.S government. The character he refers to is that they don't have you or I in it's best interest. Maybe at the beginning when it was created, but everything since (continuous, non-stop) has been undermining the average citizen and favoring the elite few. Can you at least admit there is favoritism shown to banks (bailouts) military contractors (war=big money) oil companies, corporations, etc... ?

And has the military taken you to every country in the world? And have you spent enough time in each country to adequately learn it's history, culture, and government? Neither of us can jump in our delorian and travel back in time to previous civilizations so there is no way to argue we live in the greatest country (or civilization) to ever exist in the history of mankind. That just seems like an extremely asinine (not to mention ignorant) statement. Not one that can ever be argued, and yet here you are putting that out there... Again, blind patriotism is something I just don't understand. :noidea:

I traveled to central and south america when I was younger and spent some time with and learning about the indigenous people in the san blas islands of panama, and in the sierra nevada mountains of colombia (whose empire stretched the whole length of the andes) They live today a lot like they lived hundreds of years ago (minus a few additions, coca cola being a common one lol) And I can tell you they live much longer lives, seem happier, more respectful, and treat each other more civilized than we do...yet you might consider the way they live savage because they live so differently than we do. Hell, you may even want to "save" them like those that tried to conquer (and subsequently killed) them by telling them about Jesus. Don't waste your time. They don't need to be saved by anyone. They are more spiritual than (by your own admission) many of the Christians today.

I ask again, what are you basing your opinion that we live in the greatest country to ever exist in the history of man? I really would like to know.

Okay. You win. It sounds like you'd much rather live among the indigenous in Panama or Colombia. So, let me know when you're heading back & I'll pack up my family and move down there with you.

If you seriously think that the things you just told me about the natives of Colombia is convincing evidence that America ISN'T the best country in the world, well, you'll just have to pardon me while I.........:toofunny:

Despite our government's warts, they have provided an insfrastructure of freedom of religion (or none), speech, right to bear arms, the ability to pursue your dreams, etc. How many countries do you think would hunt you down & throw you in prison just for voicing your opinion? Or would stone your wife for talking to another man? Or cane you for stealing?

On second thought....you move to the mountains of Colombia & I'll stick to the mountains of Maryland in the good ol' USA!

SteeleReign
05-07-2011, 09:30 AM
he's been told to get out on many occasions.... he just won't leave.. he's dug in like a tick on a hound dogs ass...:hunch:

I know what we used to do with the ticks on our dogs ass....just sayin....:wink02:

finesward
05-07-2011, 12:53 PM
Okay. You win. It sounds like you'd much rather live among the indigenous in Panama or Colombia. So, let me know when you're heading back & I'll pack up my family and move down there with you.

If you seriously think that the things you just told me about the natives of Colombia is convincing evidence that America ISN'T the best country in the world, well, you'll just have to pardon me while I.........:toofunny:

Despite our government's warts, they have provided an insfrastructure of freedom of religion (or none), speech, right to bear arms, the ability to pursue your dreams, etc. How many countries do you think would hunt you down & throw you in prison just for voicing your opinion? Or would stone your wife for talking to another man? Or cane you for stealing?

On second thought....you move to the mountains of Colombia & I'll stick to the mountains of Maryland in the good ol' USA!

Wow, insert stereotypical american image here

Nevermind, you win. America is the greatest country to ever exist EVER in the history of mankind. We are the only country with the freedoms you mentioned and everyone else lives in a barbaric society that we need to change to become more like us. America, **** YEAH!!

ricardisimo
05-07-2011, 01:34 PM
I've read both. (More than once) Friedrich had the better facial hair.
Absolutely. The JibJab guys totally stole his look.

It's official, by the way... I'm boycotting Champion. Only Loser brand sports apparel for me from now on.

BritishSteel
05-07-2011, 03:32 PM
Regardless of the rights and wrongs of what Mendenhall said, it wasn't the brightest or most sensible time to post it, and if you choose to post on something like Twiter, you better be ready to stand by what you write and face the whirlwind if it isn't going to be popular. He's also in the employ of the Pittsburgh Steelers so at the very minimum he needs to understand how what he says will reflect on the organisation.

Not bright, in my view.

ricardisimo
05-07-2011, 04:24 PM
Further proof that the world has been turned upside-down. Our government carries out extra-judicial assassinations abroad, and without the approval of the (allied) nation in question, nor of the United Nations, and here we are discussing whether or not a professional athlete is allowed to comment on the Mardi Gras that broke out afterwards.

With the exception of Salma Hayek, Halle Berry and a few choice others, humanity is a failed experiment all the way around. We should put ourselves out of our misery now.

Wallace108
05-07-2011, 05:06 PM
I see a lot of people here criticizing America. We all know America isn't perfect. It's easy to criticize, but I haven't seen anyone post any solutions yet. :popcorn:

fart
05-07-2011, 05:25 PM
Further proof that the world has been turned upside-down. Our government carries out extra-judicial assassinations abroad, and without the approval of the (allied) nation in question, nor of the United Nations, and here we are discussing whether or not a professional athlete is allowed to comment on the Mardi Gras that broke out afterwards.

With the exception of Salma Hayek, Halle Berry and a few choice others, humanity is a failed experiment all the way around. We should put ourselves out of our misery now.

LOL, I think there's not really an issue with Rashard's first comment... Celebrating a death is taboo, MLK Jr. had a great quote on it.

I think it was more of the "we've only heard one side" - even though bin Laden gave his "side" numerous times - and the "I have a hard time believing a plane could take a skyscraper down demoliton style" - when there's science behind the fact that it could and did.

Wallace108
05-07-2011, 06:05 PM
Our government carries out extra-judicial assassinations abroad, and without the approval of the (allied) nation in question, nor of the United Nations, and here we are discussing whether or not a professional athlete is allowed to comment on the Mardi Gras that broke out afterwards.

Our government should operate in its best interest and in the interest of its people. Concern for the U.N. and other countries is part of the problem. It's the very problem that the conspiracy theorists in this thread are talking about ... that our government, in collusion with others, is working against us. Think about it, ric.

As far as Mendy, he's free to say whatever he wants. And we're free to either agree or disagree with him.

steelerchad
05-07-2011, 06:23 PM
Our government should operate in its best interest and in the interest of its people. Concern for the U.N. and other countries is part of the problem. It's the very problem that the conspiracy theorists in this thread are talking about ... that our government, in collusion with others, is working against us. Think about it, ric.

As far as Mendy, he's free to say whatever he wants. And we're free to either agree or disagree with him.

And Champion is free to take their contract away. Don't know what the deal was worth, but I'm sure it was a decent chunk of change. Maybe Mendy will think twice before opening his mouth on subjects outside of football. You can say what you want, but there are consequences. This is 3 times for Mendy now. First, as a rookie shooting off his mouth texting a friend on the Ravens and saying he was going to run all over them. Then doing nothing on the ground before having his shoulder broken and season ended. Second, backing AP with the slave comments. Third, the Bin Laden quotes. Enough already.

Keep the trap shut and focus on not fumbling the next time you're in a big game. We may have ring #7 if not for that fumble. Nobody really cares about your politics or historical views anyway. After all, you're just a football player. So, just play football.

SteeleReign
05-07-2011, 06:27 PM
:mad:I see a lot of people here criticizing America. We all know America isn't perfect. It's easy to criticize, but I haven't seen anyone post any solutions yet. :popcorn:

Yep...typical...I deal with this crap everyday. Employees that bitch & moan all day about everything under the sun, but when you ask them to suggest a better way...."uhhh, I don't know....whatever...."

Irks me to no end....

SteeleReign
05-07-2011, 06:32 PM
Wow, insert stereotypical american image here

Nevermind, you win. America is the greatest country to ever exist EVER in the history of mankind. We are the only country with the freedoms you mentioned and everyone else lives in a barbaric society that we need to change to become more like us. America, **** YEAH!!

What "stereotypical image" would that be? Are you suggesting that I'm some backwoods American? If so, you'd be wrong. And, what would be wrong with that anyway? They're some of the nicest, hard-working people you'll find on this planet.

I never suggested changing anyone's culture or that we are the only free country on the planet. I simply suggest that over the course of the last 230+ years America has been the best country to call home. Most would agree. Most, of course, that didn't spend time in the Colombian mountains that is.

ricardisimo
05-07-2011, 06:53 PM
Our government should operate in its best interest and in the interest of its people. Concern for the U.N. and other countries is part of the problem. It's the very problem that the conspiracy theorists in this thread are talking about ... that our government, in collusion with others, is working against us. Think about it, ric.

As far as Mendy, he's free to say whatever he wants. And we're free to either agree or disagree with him.
Except that had our government listened to the UN (and to the majority of its own citizens, I hasten to point out) in the first place and not invaded Afghanistan, we'd have several thousand of our soldiers still alive, and several trillion dollars more in our coffers right now.

SteeleReign
05-07-2011, 07:15 PM
Except that had our government listened to the UN (and to the majority of its own citizens, I hasten to point out) in the first place and not invaded Afghanistan, we'd have several thousand of our soldiers still alive, and several trillion dollars more in our coffers right now.

Now, it's hard to argue with this point.

finesward
05-07-2011, 08:34 PM
What "stereotypical image" would that be? Are you suggesting that I'm some backwoods American? If so, you'd be wrong. And, what would be wrong with that anyway? They're some of the nicest, hard-working people you'll find on this planet.

I never suggested changing anyone's culture or that we are the only free country on the planet. I simply suggest that over the course of the last 230+ years America has been the best country to call home. Most would agree. Most, of course, that didn't spend time in the Colombian mountains that is.

The stereotypical american image of a person who would laugh at another culture because it is different. And had you been a backwoods american you would appreciate how those people live instead of turning your nose up at them. You see, your right...those are some of the nicest, hard working people you will find on the planet. AND YOUR NOT ONE OF THEM. Big surprise there.

I'm suggesting that we should change our culture, to be more like those hard working, nice people that live in the mountains...in maryland AND colombia. Not just the mountains either. People that believe in being responsible and educated, and not looking towards the govt. for a handout. Many of the services being provided by the government could be owned privately and a lot of this inflated govt. spending would disappear. I'm all about maintaining the rights our govt. were founded on, without the influence of corporations, banking, oil, pharmaceutical, and foreign interests influencing our lawmakers. If your against that or can't agree that America could be better and NEEDS to be better than I will stop wasting my time. If your happy with the "warts" and are complacent you are just as bad as those employees you can't stand.

SteeleReign
05-07-2011, 09:20 PM
The stereotypical american image of a person who would laugh at another culture because it is different. And had you been a backwoods american you would appreciate how those people live instead of turning your nose up at them. You see, your right...those are some of the nicest, hard working people you will find on the planet. AND YOUR NOT ONE OF THEM. Big surprise there.

I'm suggesting that we should change our culture, to be more like those hard working, nice people that live in the mountains...in maryland AND colombia. Not just the mountains either. People that believe in being responsible and educated, and not looking towards the govt. for a handout. Many of the services being provided by the government could be owned privately and a lot of this inflated govt. spending would disappear. I'm all about maintaining the rights our govt. were founded on, without the influence of corporations, banking, oil, pharmaceutical, and foreign interests influencing our lawmakers. If your against that or can't agree that America could be better and NEEDS to be better than I will stop wasting my time. If your happy with the "warts" and are complacent you are just as bad as those employees you can't stand.

You truly need to read a little slower. If you would you would know that I was laughing at your suggestion that the simplicity of living as a native in Colombia were proof that our country isn't the best the world has seen.

What are you talking about? I've never said our country can't be better. And, don't even try to paint me a someone who throws their nose up at the less fortunate. You've got no basis for that type of comment. This whole conversation began when you claimed I was ridiculous for claiming that America is the best country in recent human history. I still stand by that claim & no amount of babble from you will change that.

Can America be better? Yes, of course. Will it? Who knows....I hope so. But, even if it remains status quo, I'm proud to be an American & have no intention of leaving.

Now, are we done here?

finesward
05-08-2011, 08:26 AM
You truly need to read a little slower. If you would you would know that I was laughing at your suggestion that the simplicity of living as a native in Colombia were proof that our country isn't the best the world has seen.

What are you talking about? I've never said our country can't be better. And, don't even try to paint me a someone who throws their nose up at the less fortunate. You've got no basis for that type of comment. This whole conversation began when you claimed I was ridiculous for claiming that America is the best country in recent human history. I still stand by that claim & no amount of babble from you will change that.

Can America be better? Yes, of course. Will it? Who knows....I hope so. But, even if it remains status quo, I'm proud to be an American & have no intention of leaving.

Now, are we done here?

And who are you to judge that the way they live isn't better than the way we (most americans) live their lives?

If you would read more carefully you would know I was using them as an example of people living without the wealth that we have and being much happier, more healthy, more self sufficient, more spiritual, more communal, etc.. than we are. So if you take wealth and power out of the equation when it comes to rating a country and include those things there is a valid argument that they are "better" Not that I would make that argument b/c it's completely silly to make such broad assumptions as you have made...I never said what you claimed was ridiculous, just ignorant. And I stand by that. From someone who is proudly a true Christian and follows those beliefs, not to judge others being one of them, you are quick to judge entire countries, many if not most you have never been to. So you are correct it is not only ignorant but also ridiculous that you could make such a claim. One that cannot be argued. It's pure opinion and one drenched in blind patriotism. And don't try to change the wording of what you said. You didn't say recent history, you didn't say past 230 years. You said

Yet, we live in arguably the greatest nation to ever exist on this planet.

Yep, I think that about sums it up. :hatsoff:

SteeleReign
05-08-2011, 12:25 PM
And who are you to judge that the way they live isn't better than the way we (most americans) live their lives?

If you would read more carefully you would know I was using them as an example of people living without the wealth that we have and being much happier, more healthy, more self sufficient, more spiritual, more communal, etc.. than we are. So if you take wealth and power out of the equation when it comes to rating a country and include those things there is a valid argument that they are "better" Not that I would make that argument b/c it's completely silly to make such broad assumptions as you have made...I never said what you claimed was ridiculous, just ignorant. And I stand by that. From someone who is proudly a true Christian and follows those beliefs, not to judge others being one of them, you are quick to judge entire countries, many if not most you have never been to. So you are correct it is not only ignorant but also ridiculous that you could make such a claim. One that cannot be argued. It's pure opinion and one drenched in blind patriotism. And don't try to change the wording of what you said. You didn't say recent history, you didn't say past 230 years. You said

Okay. Would you agree that America is the best country in the last 230 years?

Yep, I think that about sums it up. :hatsoff:

Please. Name one country you'd prefer to call home. Just one. In all of human history.

My claim is not blind patriotism. It's my opinion, and a perfectly valid one at that. You're welcome to disagree, but your posted examples as to why I'm wrong bear no weight in my mind.

And please, stop with the accusations of me "judging other people." I'm not judging a person, I'm judging a society & a way of life . I prefer mine to that of the natives living in the mountains of Colombia. That is in no way a knock on who they are as people.

finesward
05-08-2011, 02:38 PM
Please. Name one country you'd prefer to call home. Just one. In all of human history.

My claim is not blind patriotism. It's my opinion, and a perfectly valid one at that. You're welcome to disagree, but your posted examples as to why I'm wrong bear no weight in my mind.

And please, stop with the accusations of me "judging other people." I'm not judging a person, I'm judging a society & a way of life . I prefer mine to that of the natives living in the mountains of Colombia. That is in no way a knock on who they are as people.

:uhh:

A society or a human society is (1) a group of people related to each other through persistent relations. (2) A large social grouping that shares the same geographical territory, subject to the same political authority and dominant cultural expectations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society

:hatsoff:

ricardisimo
05-08-2011, 02:38 PM
This thread has derailed, and should probably either get back to Rashard soon, or move to the Locker Room.

finesward
05-08-2011, 02:45 PM
Agreed. If he wants to keep discussing he is more than welcome to do so through PM. Although at this point there is really nothing left to say.

Wallace108
05-09-2011, 01:28 AM
Q65KZIqay4E

SteeleReign
05-09-2011, 11:33 AM
Q65KZIqay4E

Uhhh...excuse me, is this blind patriotism?

thumper
05-09-2011, 01:32 PM
what RM _should_ have questioned was the OBL was even alive to
begin with. He was dying back in 2001. All evidence points to him having
died 10 years ago. Is it any wonder that they have no photos they will show
us, no DNA evidence for us to look at and no body - as they claimed they
immediately dumped it in the sea. Please.

ricardisimo
05-09-2011, 02:33 PM
We have no idea, and probably never will. For all we know he's still alive, his family perhaps having pulled strings for him again. Or he died ten years ago. Or he doesn't even exist, and is just a CIA-fabricated bogeyman. Or maybe, in some bizarre twist, he was assassinated last week by US black ops. I think the main point is that none of our options are pretty. Our government is either corrupt, incompetent or both. Take your pick.

SteeleReign
05-09-2011, 02:40 PM
We have no idea, and probably never will. For all we know he's still alive, his family perhaps having pulled strings for him again. Or he died ten years ago. Or he doesn't even exist, and is just a CIA-fabricated bogeyman. Or maybe, in some bizarre twist, he was assassinated last week by US black ops. I think the main point is that none of our options are pretty. Our government is either corrupt, incompetent or both. Take your pick.

I think you & Thumper should pack up and move to the mountains of Colombia with Finesward - I hear things are great down there. Ciao.

ricardisimo
05-09-2011, 03:19 PM
Whatever dude.

SteelCityMom
05-09-2011, 03:32 PM
I think you & Thumper should pack up and move to the mountains of Colombia with Finesward - I hear things are great down there. Ciao.

You know, I understand that America is a great county. We have lots of freedoms (many of which are slipping though), and a relatively high standard of living compared to many countries. That does not mean that questioning our government is anti-American. In fact, I'm 100% convinced that questioning your government and being suspicious of those that are in charge of your freedoms is one of the most patriotic things a person can do. If we as a society don't question and keep tabs on how our government is being run and what elected officials are doing, then it'll be our own fault when the shit hits the fan (and, as history has shown, it always does).

Sitting back and becoming complacent (like a good majority of Americans are today) with your government only leads to an eventual downfall.

Ok...stepping off my soap box for a moment...I found this article browsing around. I guess Pieczenik is just un-American and should just get out.
Top Government Insider: Bin Laden Died In 2001, 9/11 False Flag Attack
by Paul Joseph Watson
http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24622Top US government insider Dr. Steve R. Pieczenik, a man who held numerous different influential positions under three different Presidents and still works with the Defense Department, shockingly told The Alex Jones Show yesterday that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001 and that he was prepared to testify in front of a grand jury how a top general told him directly that 9/11 was a false flag inside job.
Pieczenik cannot be dismissed as a “conspiracy theorist”. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Pieczenik) He served as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of State under three different administrations, Nixon, Ford and Carter, while also working under Reagan and Bush senior, and still works as a consultant for the Department of Defense. A former US Navy Captain, Pieczenik achieved two prestigious Harry C. Solomon Awards at the Harvard Medical School as he simultaneously completed a PhD at MIT.
Back in April 2002, over nine years ago (http://www.prisonplanet.com/jones_report_042402_pieczenik.html), Pieczenik told the Alex Jones Show that Bin Laden had already been “dead for months,” and that the government was waiting for the most politically expedient time to roll out his corpse. Pieczenik would be in a position to know, having personally met Bin Laden and worked with him during the proxy war against the Soviets in Afghanistan back in the early 80′s.
Pieczenik said that Osama Bin Laden died in 2001, “Not because special forces had killed him, but because as a physician I had known that the CIA physicians had treated him and it was on the intelligence roster that he had marfan syndrome,” adding that the US government knew Bin Laden was dead before they invaded Afghanistan.
Marfan syndrome (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marfan_syndrome) is a degenerative genetic disease for which there is no permanent cure. The illness severely shortens the life span of the sufferer.
“He died of marfan syndrome, Bush junior knew about it, the intelligence community knew about it,” said Pieczenik, noting how CIA physicians had visited Bin Laden in July 2001 at the American Hospital in Dubai (http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/01/afghanistan.terrorism).
“He was already very sick from marfan syndrome and he was already dying, so nobody had to kill him,” added Pieczenik, stating that Bin Laden died shortly after 9/11 in his Tora Bora cave complex.
Pieczenik said that the decision to launch the hoax now was made because Obama had reached a low with plummeting approval ratings and the fact that the birther issue was blowing up in his face.
“He had to prove that he was more than American….he had to be aggressive,” said Pieczenik, adding that the farce was also a way of isolating Pakistan as a retaliation for intense opposition to the Predator drone program (http://edition.cnn.hu/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/04/24/pakistan.drone.protest/index.html?iref=mpstoryview), which has killed hundreds of Pakistanis.
Pieczenik’s assertion that Bin Laden died almost ten years ago is echoed by numerous intelligence professionals (http://www.prisonplanet.com/inside-sources-bin-ladens-corpse-has-been-on-ice-for-nearly-a-decade.html) as well as heads of state across the world.
Bin Laden, “Was used in the same way that 9/11 was used to mobilize the emotions and feelings of the American people in order to go to a war that had to be justified through a narrative that Bush junior created and Cheney created about the world of terrorism,” stated Pieczenik.
During his interview with the Alex Jones Show yesterday, Pieczenik also asserted he was directly told by a prominent general that 9/11 was a stand down and a false flag operation, and that he is prepared to go to a grand jury to reveal the general’s name.
“They ran the attacks,” said Pieczenik, naming Dick Cheney, Paul Wolfowitz, Stephen Hadley, Elliott Abrams, and Condoleezza Rice amongst others as having been directly involved.
“It was called a stand down, a false flag operation in order to mobilize the American public under false pretenses….it was told to me even by the general on the staff of Wolfowitz – I will go in front of a federal committee and swear on perjury who the name was of the individual so that we can break it open,” said Pieczenik, adding that he was “furious” and “knew it had happened”.

I dunno...dude sounds like he means it to me. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

ricardisimo
05-09-2011, 03:46 PM
You know, I understand that America is a great county. We have lots of freedoms (many of which are slipping though), and a relatively high standard of living compared to many countries. That does not mean that questioning our government is anti-American. In fact, I'm 100% convinced that questioning your government and being suspicious of those that are in charge of your freedoms is one of the most patriotic things a person can do. If we as a society don't question and keep tabs on how our government is being run and what elected officials are doing, then it'll be our own fault when the shit hits the fan (and, as history has shown, it always does).

Sitting back and becoming complacent (like a good majority of Americans are today) with your government only leads to an eventual downfall.

Ok...stepping off my soap box for a moment...I found this article browsing around. I guess Pieczenik is just un-American and should just get out.

I dunno...dude sounds like he means it to me. It'll be interesting to see what happens.
:stupid:

Sixburgher
05-09-2011, 04:12 PM
So I'm supposed to believe that the same government that can't keep classified documents out of the hands of Assange could cover something this big for the better part of a decade? There's a difference between questioning one's government and paranoid delusion.

SteelCityMom
05-09-2011, 05:11 PM
So I'm supposed to believe that the same government that can't keep classified documents out of the hands of Assange could cover something this big for the better part of a decade? There's a difference between questioning one's government and paranoid delusion.


No...it would be paranoid delusions if I sat around my basement in a tinfoil hat and just made this stuff up. It's another thing when someone who is still employed by the US government says it and swears to go to a grand jury with their statements.

I don't know...take it however you want. The guy seems legit to me. That's not saying that insane people with paranoid delusions don't ever graduate from MIT with a doctorate and work under 5 different presidents...I'm just not sure how common it is. :noidea:

Sixburgher
05-09-2011, 05:26 PM
No...it would be paranoid delusions if I sat around my basement in a tinfoil hat and just made this stuff up. It's another thing when someone who is still employed by the US government says it and swears to go to a grand jury with their statements.

I don't know...take it however you want. The guy seems legit to me. That's not saying that insane people with paranoid delusions don't ever graduate from MIT with a doctorate and work under 5 different presidents...I'm just not sure how common it is. :noidea:

This guy? http://www.stevepieczenik.com/home.html

Sorry, have my doubts. The Canadian origin of the website that article is posted on didn't up the credibility in my mind either. Did you happen to catch some of the other bylines on that site? It reads like a tinfoil hat wearing truther site if I've ever seen one.

finesward
05-09-2011, 05:37 PM
Whatever dude.

You'll have to forgive him ricardisimo, he got his feelings hurt :crying01:

SteelCityMom
05-09-2011, 06:04 PM
This guy? http://www.stevepieczenik.com/home.html

Sorry, have my doubts. The Canadian origin of the website that article is posted on didn't up the credibility in my mind either.

Yes...this guy. He sounds like an absolute loon. :chuckle:

trained in Psychiatry at Harvard and has both an M.D. from Cornell University Medical College and a Ph.D. in International Relations from M.I.T

He served as a Deputy Assistant Secretary of State and/or Senior Policy Planner under Secretaries Henry Kissinger, Cyrus Vance, George Schultz and James Baker.

his unique abilities and expertise to develop strategies and tactics that were instrumental in resolving major conflicts in Asia, the Middle East, Latin America, Europe and the United States.

he developed conflict resolution techniques that were instrumental in saving over five hundred hostages in different terrorist episodes, including the Hanafi Moslem Seizure in Washington, DC, the TWA Croatian Hijacking, the Aldo Moro Kidnapping, the JRA Hijacking, the PLO Hijacking, and many other incidents involving terrorists such as Idi Amin, Muammar Quaddafi, Carlos, FARC, Abu Nidal and Saddam Hussein.

He is currently an advisor to the Department of Defense.

Dr. Pieczenik has started several successful companies, employing his methodologies in various industries, including investment banking, publishing and television/film.


Ok...sorry you don't like the website. Would you rather hear him talking to Alex Jones yourself?

TeMlL3ANprI

Sixburgher
05-09-2011, 06:15 PM
Yes...this guy. He sounds like an absolute loon. :chuckle:

He is currently an advisor to the Department of Defense.

Didn't say he was a loon. I just don't buy what he's selling. I also don't completely buy the government's story though, either, before I'm labeled a "sheep".

Still an adviser to the DoD? In light of these allegations? I find that a little hard to believe. About the only entity out there that's probably more paranoid than the truthers is the Pentagon, and in turn the DoD.

ricardisimo
05-09-2011, 06:36 PM
Didn't say he was a loon. I just don't buy what he's selling. I also don't completely buy the government's story though, either, before I'm labeled a "sheep".

Still an adviser to the DoD? In light of these allegations? I find that a little hard to believe. About the only entity out there that's probably more paranoid than the truthers is the Pentagon, and in turn the DoD.
Don't know about DoD, but he's on the Council of Foreign Relations. I have my doubts about this as well, but our foreign policy is just screwy enough to necessitate these sorts of shenanigans, fo' shizzle.

SteelCityMom
05-09-2011, 07:58 PM
Didn't say he was a loon. I just don't buy what he's selling. I also don't completely buy the government's story though, either, before I'm labeled a "sheep".

Still an adviser to the DoD? In light of these allegations? I find that a little hard to believe. About the only entity out there that's probably more paranoid than the truthers is the Pentagon, and in turn the DoD.

I'm not saying it's god's word either or anything...and certainly wouldn't label you a sheep or a shill or anything screwy like that. You've got to admit though, with his background, education and employment, he's most likely not some crazy loon babbling stuff on a blog to get attention...know what I mean?

For many, many years I was extremely skeptical of any kind of hardcore conspiracy theories...but my ears perk up when someone with some credibility says something.

I have no clue if he is still currently an advisor to the DoD. He was when he made the statements, as far as I know. Did you even read his bio though? He's only an adviser for the DoD. His main employment was with the State Department as an International Crisis Manager and Hostage Negotiator. He spent his life trying to save people from terrorists. I just have my doubts that someone who did that would just one day up and decide to make some shit up (he said this back in '02 by the way...all he's doing now is backing up his previous statements and stating that he'll testify to a grand jury).

Maybe he did make it up and it's all bullshit...what do I know really. I'm just leaning more towards the thinking that he's not. I just don't understand what the whole purpose of him making this up would be.

MasterOfPuppets
05-09-2011, 09:46 PM
Didn't say he was a loon. I just don't buy what he's selling. I also don't completely buy the government's story though, either, before I'm labeled a "sheep".

Still an adviser to the DoD? In light of these allegations? I find that a little hard to believe. About the only entity out there that's probably more paranoid than the truthers is the Pentagon, and in turn the DoD.

Operation Northwoods

US PLANNED FAKE TERROR ATTACKS ON CITIZENS
TO CREATE SUPPORT FOR CUBAN WAR

According to secret and long-hidden documents obtained for Body of Secrets, the Joint Chiefs of Staff drew up and approved plans for what may be the most corrupt plan ever created by the U.S. government. In the name of antiCommunism, they proposed launching a secret and bloody war of terrorism against their own country in order to trick the American public into supporting an ill-conceived war they intended to launch against Cuba.
Code named Operation Northwoods, the plan, which had the written approval of the Chairman and every member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, called for innocent people to be shot on American streets; for boats carrying refugees fleeing Cuba to be sunk on the high seas; for a wave of violent terrorism to be launched in Washington, D.C., Miami, and elsewhere. People would be framed for bombings they did not commit; planes would be hijacked. Using phony evidence, all of it would be blamed on Castro, thus giving Lemnitzer and his cabal the excuse, as well as the public and international backing, they needed to launch their war.
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/northwoods.html


Rp3P2wDKQK4&feature=related
IygchZRJVXM

MattsMe
05-09-2011, 10:31 PM
Occam's razor.

The earth revolves around the sun, Bin Laden did it, and Bruce Arians sucks.





Or not. :noidea:

Wallace108
05-10-2011, 09:13 AM
Pieczenik said that the decision to launch the hoax now was made because Obama had reached a low with plummeting approval ratings and the fact that the birther issue was blowing up in his face.
“He had to prove that he was more than American….he had to be aggressive,” said Pieczenik,
I just don't buy this. Obama's approval rating right now doesn't really matter. If they were going to pull off a hoax of this magnitude, wouldn't they do it closer to the election? :noidea:

Here are some facts that work against the death being a hoax. Bin Laden's three wives are in Pakistani custody, and the U.S. wants access to them. Al-Qaida leaders confirmed the death. I don't know ... but I'm guessing his wives and al-Qaida leaders would know if he's been dead for nine years.

In order for it to be a hoax, everyone in the U.S. government, Pakistan, bin Laden's wives, and al-Qaida would all have to be involved in the coverup.

MasterOfPuppets
05-10-2011, 11:02 AM
I just don't buy this. Obama's approval rating right now doesn't really matter. If they were going to pull off a hoax of this magnitude, wouldn't they do it closer to the election? :noidea:

Here are some facts that work against the death being a hoax. Bin Laden's three wives are in Pakistani custody, and the U.S. wants access to them. Al-Qaida leaders confirmed the death. I don't know ... but I'm guessing his wives and al-Qaida leaders would know if he's been dead for nine years.

In order for it to be a hoax, everyone in the U.S. government, Pakistan, bin Laden's wives, and al-Qaida would all have to be involved in the coverup.
unless of course al-qaida really is on the CIA payroll just like pakistans government is ..:noidea:
if they wanted the wives , why not grab them while they were there ?

SteelCityMom
05-10-2011, 11:06 AM
I just don't buy this. Obama's approval rating right now doesn't really matter. If they were going to pull off a hoax of this magnitude, wouldn't they do it closer to the election? :noidea:

Here are some facts that work against the death being a hoax. Bin Laden's three wives are in Pakistani custody, and the U.S. wants access to them. Al-Qaida leaders confirmed the death. I don't know ... but I'm guessing his wives and al-Qaida leaders would know if he's been dead for nine years.

In order for it to be a hoax, everyone in the U.S. government, Pakistan, bin Laden's wives, and al-Qaida would all have to be involved in the coverup.

I get what you're saying...and believe me, I'm almost always extremely skeptical of conspiracy theories. I mean, I'm always skeptical of the government...I just don't usually go for the more "out there" kinds of theories. Just for some reason, this one just sticks out for me. And it's not like it's something he just fabricated because he thinks Obama wants to better his image...he was saying this before anyone outside of Illinois even know who Obama was.

I don't know. Most crap I hear about 9/11 and Osama (conspiracy theories) is from some blogger who has too much time on his/her hands and never really amounts to much in my mind. I don't see the purpose of Pieczenik making this up and wanting to testify in court to this.

Like I said, I don't know. There's just too much stuff that doesn't add up about this whole thing, and I really have doubts that this guy is just some wacko making shit up...just a gut feeling.

Maybe it all happened the way the government and Obama said it did though...I mean, what could any of them possibly have to gain. :chuckle:

Anyway, the whole purpose of me even posting that wasn't to get into technical debates about whether it was 100% true or not...it was simply to illustrate that even well respected individuals that work within our military and government find cause to seriously question their motives and tactics. It was in response to someone who seemed to imply that it's unpatriotic to question anything about 9/11 and the death of bin Laden (amongst other government operations)...when in fact, I feel the opposite.

In the end, what does it really hurt to question and demand evidence from our government? Do they not work for us? For some reason people seem to think it's ok to just sit back and believe what they're being told by politicians and other elected officials. I know when I had employees I was responsible for (that's what politicians and elected officials are...civil employees), I was on their asses constantly to do the job right, or else I would be the one screwed. That's how I feel about our government. We put people in office and then rely on major newspapers and TV networks to tell us about how our elected officials are doing. Screw that...we as a country should be up their asses constantly. Not sitting back, feeling content that they are doing what's best. How we blindly trust complete strangers with our freedoms and liberties...not to mention the billions of dollars a year of our money...is beyond me.

I, for one, want to know every detail...and I don't think that's asking to much.

That ends my rant for the day...thank you to all who read my blathering. :chuckle:

MasterOfPuppets
05-10-2011, 11:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=at56A5eg3vs

at56A5eg3vs

MasterOfPuppets
05-10-2011, 11:28 AM
lets see...unocal merged with chevron ... who just so happend to be condolezza rices employer before joining bush's staff...:scratchchin: ....the dots practically connect themselves.

IN 1998 AMERICA WANTED NEW GOVERNMENT IN AFGHANISTAN TO ALLOW CONSTRUCTION OF OIL PIPELINE
America has wanted a new government in Afghanistan since at least 1998, three years before the attacks on 11 September 2001. The official report from a meeting of the U.S. Government's foreign policy committee on 12 February 1998, available on the U.S. Government website, confirms that the need for a West-friendly government was recognised long before the War on Terror that followed September 11th:

"The U.S. Government's position is that we support multiple pipelines...
The Unocal pipeline is among those pipelines that would receive our
support under that policy. I would caution that while we do support the
project, the U.S. Government has not at this point recognized any
governing regime of the transit country, one of the transit countries,
Afghanistan, through which that pipeline would be routed. But we do
support the project."
[ U.S. House of Reps., "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics" (http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0.htm#17), 12 Feb 1998 ]


"The only other possible route [for the desired oil pipeline] is across,
Afghanistan which has of course its own unique challenges."

[ "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics" (http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0.htm#33), 12 Feb 1998 ]


"CentGas can not begin construction until an internationally recognized
Afghanistan Government is in place."
[ "U.S. Interests in the Central Asian Republics" (http://commdocs.house.gov/committees/intlrel/hfa48119.000/hfa48119_0.htm#33), 12 Feb 1998 ]



The Afghanistan oil pipeline project was finally able to proceed in May 2002. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/2017044.stm) This could not have happened if America had not taken military action to replace the government in Afghanistan.
http://www.thedebate.org/images/black.gif THE CONQUEST OF AFGHANISTAN BEGAN BEFORE 9/11
The war on Afghanistan was sold to the public as a reaction to the attacks on 11 September 2001. However, the war was planned before the infamous 9/11 disaster, and the military action began long before the World Trade Center fell.
The conquest of Afghanistan had been planned since at least 12 February 1998, and 9/11 happened just in time to secure public support for the attacks.

http://www.thedebate.org/thedebate/afghanistan.asp


Afghan president signs deal on pipeline project
THE WORLD
The gas conduit would cut through Taliban territory, and any revenue could be years away.
December 12, 2010|Borzou Daragahi

Afghan President Hamid Karzai met with regional leaders Saturday to sign an agreement for a massive energy project that could eventually net his country billions of dollars in revenue: a 1,000-mile natural gas pipeline whose proposed route cuts through the heartland of the Taliban insurgency.

As if to highlight the complications facing the project, at least 26 people were killed in attacks Friday and Saturday, including a Taliban commander and several people believed to be with a private security firm, Afghan and NATO officials said.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/dec/12/world/la-fg-afghanistan-bombings-20101212



Gas pipeline: Afghan parliament approves TAPI project

The Afghan parliament’s International Liaison Commission said the agreement will act as a boost for the Afghan economy and the gas flow would help to strengthen relations between the countries involved in the project.

About 7,000 personnel will be assigned to ensure security to the project in Afghanistan, said Muhammad Anwar Akbari, a member of the commission.

Afghanistan will receive 1.2 billion cubic metres of natural gas once the project is completed.

Akbari said that this would rise to over five billion cubic metres within five years.

The cost of the project is estimated at around $7.8 billion, said Akbari. Construction work, with the help of an American firm, will begin by 2012 and is expected to be completed by 2014, he added.
http://tribune.com.pk/story/160367/gas-pipeline-afghan-parliament-approves-tapi-project/

ricardisimo
05-10-2011, 02:45 PM
Occam's razor.

The earth revolves around the sun, Bin Laden did it, and Bruce Arians sucks.





Or not. :noidea:
Occam was a CIA stooge, Matt. The government wants you to believe that the simplest explanation is normally correct. Makes their job that much easier.

MattsMe
05-10-2011, 04:13 PM
Occam was a CIA stooge, Matt. The government wants you to believe that the simplest explanation is normally correct. Makes their job that much easier.

Ahem. :tap:

The principle is often inaccurately summarized as "the simplest explanation is most likely the correct one." This summary is misleading, however, since the principle is actually focused on shifting the burden of proof in discussions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Of course, everyone knows the Bilderberg Group controls Wikipedia through the iphone's new sheep herding app, so maybe that article is a fabrication.

Unless that's what they want us to believe........................................... ....

ricardisimo
05-10-2011, 05:02 PM
Ahem. :tap:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor

Of course, everyone knows the Bilderberg Group controls Wikipedia through the iphone's new sheep herding app, so maybe that article is a fabrication.

Unless that's what they want us to believe........................................... ....
Dude, your a troll...........................

thumper
05-10-2011, 08:07 PM
I just don't buy this. Obama's approval rating right now doesn't really matter. If they were going to pull off a hoax of this magnitude, wouldn't they do it closer to the election? :noidea:

Here are some facts that work against the death being a hoax. Bin Laden's three wives are in Pakistani custody, and the U.S. wants access to them. Al-Qaida leaders confirmed the death. I don't know ... but I'm guessing his wives and al-Qaida leaders would know if he's been dead for nine years.

In order for it to be a hoax, everyone in the U.S. government, Pakistan, bin Laden's wives, and al-Qaida would all have to be involved in the coverup.

AQ is a CIA-created group. They hardly have any credibility to speak of

HAWK
05-10-2011, 08:08 PM
Occam was a CIA stooge, Matt. The government wants you to believe that the simplest explanation is normally correct. Makes their job that much easier.

Sarcasm? (I hope.)

Ockham was a 14th century logician whose works have been applied to countless scientific, medical, religious, etc. schools of thought since his time (and technically before that as Ockham also "borrowed" from his predecessors) and is still in use today.

MasterOfPuppets
05-10-2011, 11:29 PM
Sarcasm? (I hope.)

Ockham was a 14th century logician whose works have been applied to countless scientific, medical, religious, etc. schools of thought since his time (and technically before that as Ockham also "borrowed" from his predecessors) and is still in use today.
at least thats what the bilderberg run wikipedia would have you believe...:wtf:

Wallace108
05-11-2011, 01:30 AM
Anyway, the whole purpose of me even posting that wasn't to get into technical debates about whether it was 100% true or not...it was simply to illustrate that even well respected individuals that work within our military and government find cause to seriously question their motives and tactics. It was in response to someone who seemed to imply that it's unpatriotic to question anything about 9/11 and the death of bin Laden (amongst other government operations)...when in fact, I feel the opposite.
I agree with you on this, Mom. I don't believe in taking anything at face value either, especially when it comes to the government. I've been arguing for about three years that our financial mess has nothing to do with banks and subprime loans and all the other garbage we've been fed. The reason we're in this mess is because we've lost all of our middle-class manufacturing jobs. And that wasn't by accident. Our "leaders" know what's happening and they know how to fix it. Yet they choose not to. But that's a discussion beyond this thread.

My point is that I believe in asking questions and debate, and not accepting something as fact just because it comes from the government or the media. But when it comes to 9/11, there's just too much involved for the conspiracy theories to be true. So many people would have to be a part of it. So many details would have to be carried our perfectly. We're not talking about a small group of people or an agency that would have to be involved. We're talking about numerous countries and groups like al-Qaida that would have to be a part of it. The amount of collusion that would be involved is unfathomable.

But it does make for good debate, and so I'm all for it. :thumbsup:

lets see...unocal merged with chevron ... who just so happend to be condolezza rices employer before joining bush's staff...:scratchchin: ....the dots practically connect themselves.
There's no doubt we had an interest in Afghanistan. We have a lot of interests. But does that mean we can make the leap to suggest that that's why 9/11 was orchestrated? If I had a million dollar insurance policy on my wife and planned on killing her to collect the money, the last thing I'd do is talk openly about how great it would be to have all that money. I'd probably want to keep my motives to myself. :noidea:

AQ is a CIA-created group. They hardly have any credibility to speak of
How do we know that the CIA isn't an al-Qaida-created group? Maybe it's all a plan for Islam to take over the world. :scratchchin:

HAWK
05-11-2011, 10:29 AM
at least thats what the bilderberg run wikipedia would have you believe...:wtf:

Oh, my bad. :coffee:

ricardisimo
05-11-2011, 03:56 PM
And who decided that Ockham's name was going to be changed to Occam? The Rothschilds, that's who. Look it up.

Steelers17
05-12-2011, 07:19 PM
Further evidence we root for these guys on the field and probably do not want to know about their moronic conduct off of it (see, e.g,, B. Roethlisberger)

Speaking of Ben, an update on his looming civil rape trial was published today:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/11132/1146109-100.stm

:tt03: