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View Full Version : why santonio holmes will find success in pitt.


tony hipchest
05-18-2006, 05:33 PM
very good article by john clayton sums up why holmes will not travel the route of the large number of 1st round wr busts:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2448029

in brief, the steelers have the luxury to patiently bring him along slowly, and not expect him to come in and put up #1 wr stats immediately. he will be allowed to develop.

clevestinks
05-18-2006, 06:19 PM
Great article, and Clayton may look the part of the Geek, but he does know his football.

tony hipchest
05-18-2006, 06:24 PM
Great article, and Clayton may look the part of the Geek, but he does know his football. lol. he is a supergeek and it pisses me off every time he pronounces "negotiate" as "ne-go-see-ate" but with a duquene education during the 70's you know hes smart AND knows his football. he hides his steelers homerism well and is rather objective.

BB2W
05-18-2006, 06:24 PM
Great article, and Clayton may look the part of the Geek, but he does know his football.
Yeah, he's not so bad... you have to like him more than Salisbury.

clevestinks
05-18-2006, 06:30 PM
Yeah, he's not so bad... you have to like him more than Salisbury.
Slaisbury is a ****y jerk!:blah:

silver & black
05-18-2006, 06:40 PM
very good article by john clayton sums up why holmes will not travel the route of the large number of 1st round wr busts:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2448029

in brief, the steelers have the luxury to patiently bring him along slowly, and not expect him to come in and put up #1 wr stats immediately. he will be allowed to develop.
Good read. Being an Ohio boy, I hope he finds success with the Steelers.

Stlrs4Life
05-18-2006, 06:45 PM
Good read. Hope he is right!

tony hipchest
05-18-2006, 06:49 PM
Good read. Being an Ohio boy, I hope he finds success with the Steelers.

i was hesitant with the steelers taking a wr in the 1st round when it looked like jackson and moss would be the 2 most likely options. and until the failed drug test reports of lendale white came out i though it would be almost impossible to pass up on a back of his ilk (hoping he could have the potential of larry johnson or career of jerome bettis)

but landing the consensus #1 wr in the draft when we were drafting #32 makes as much sense as taking polamalu, ben, h. miller, in the previous 3 years. (all 3 were the best and #1 players available at their position) im very confident holmes will follow their same path to success.

DIESELMAN
05-19-2006, 08:56 AM
Good article.....we'll see what happens

83-Steelers-43
05-19-2006, 09:07 AM
Great article, and Clayton may look the part of the Geek, but he does know his football.

One day, just one day I would love to see Clayton go ape $hit and lay out Sean Salisbury on live TV. That would make my year.

Haiku_Dirtt
05-19-2006, 04:12 PM
Slaisbury is a ****y jerk!:blah:

Pretty funny. The problem with Salisbury is that they give him too much time to talk. You force him to make his point in under 10 seconds and he's usually right on the money. It's what he says after he makes his point that makes me go :dang:

He snuck into a radio job in San Diego (XTRA sports 690 - same as Jim Rome) right before ESPN made the big move into radio...but then he somehow slipped into TV. (USC media connections)

I'll listen to what Clayton is saying everytime.

Black@Gold Forever32
05-19-2006, 05:28 PM
Well I made the point when we drafted Holmes the reason he will have success his rookie year is the fact he doesn't have to carry the offense just fill a role. His role will be big plays.

Suitanim
05-19-2006, 07:20 PM
You know, it's funny, because I actually started to doubt my own guy after reading too much draft crap, but the dude was just always clutch. If the Buckeyes needed it, he came up big. And OSU is NOT a passing team.

I'm sticking with 50 catches for 800 and maybe 5- TD's.

Black@Gold Forever32
05-20-2006, 11:11 AM
You know, it's funny, because I actually started to doubt my own guy after reading too much draft crap, but the dude was just always clutch. If the Buckeyes needed it, he came up big. And OSU is NOT a passing team.

I'm sticking with 50 catches for 800 and maybe 5- TD's.

Yea I think Holmes could get those numbers. I have Holmes at around 40 catches for 700 yards and 6 TD's.

Ohio Steeler
05-20-2006, 12:07 PM
I look for him to have around 50 to 80 catchs for around 800 to 1000 yards with around 8 to 10 td's

Black@Gold Forever32
05-20-2006, 12:13 PM
I look for him to have around 50 to 80 catchs for around 800 to 1000 yards with around 8 to 10 td's

I don't see Holmes getting 1000 yards. Hines Ward will get his share of catches and yards. Hines should have another 900 to 1100 yard season. Throw in Heath Miller and he will get his share also. Plus the Steelers will run the ball at least 55 percent of the time this year. I just don't see enough footballs to go around for Holmes to get 1000 yards.

Indy_Steelers
05-20-2006, 03:10 PM
i think holmes could have a good year because alot of teams will think to double hines ward becasue he is the only receiver we have and it will be a chance for santonio and miller to have good years.

nwksteeler
05-21-2006, 07:18 PM
Once again, the brass got the no.1 guy on their board. We have some of the best talent evaluators in the sport. Holmes has the physical and mental tools to be a very good one. So many wide outs turn out to be busts due to high expectations all he has to do is watch what Hines does. Hard work can become contagious he''s be a pro bowler in three years if no before then.

WWIIOwheelz
05-21-2006, 07:24 PM
I see more passing in general for the Steelers, and much like Miller quickly did well with Ben, I think Holmes will also, but in a different niche.

THIS guy will be the legitimate deep ball threat we've lacked for so long because of his blistering speed, but I think the Steelers will mask it well. It will come on plays where the deep ball isn't expected at all, finding him in single coverage.

Without that brace on, maybe Ben can tighten up that spiral & put on a show this season with Holmes, can't wait to see!

tony hipchest
01-02-2007, 04:29 PM
You know, it's funny, because I actually started to doubt my own guy after reading too much draft crap, but the dude was just always clutch. If the Buckeyes needed it, he came up big. And OSU is NOT a passing team.

I'm sticking with 50 catches for 800 and maybe 5- TD's.i thought we had a pre-season thread predicting santonios numbers for the year. i guess this was it. (good article too. clayton was right)

anyways good call suit.

49 catches/ 824 yds and 2 td's.

tony hipchest
01-02-2007, 04:49 PM
looking deeper into santonios numbers we see that 41 of his 49 catches were for 1st downs. very impressive. only 12 catches were for 20+ yds and 3 were for 40+ yet he averaged 16.8 ypc. (better than plex's career average ypc and a number burress has only topped twice. 63/988/10 td and 15.7 ypc this year for the giants)

700 punt and kick return yards with 1 td. 5 fumbles but only 2 were lost. after a poor year for the team i say him and a healthy ward are bright spots going into next season.

Borski
01-02-2007, 04:52 PM
very good article by john clayton sums up why holmes will not travel the route of the large number of 1st round wr busts:

http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/columns/story?columnist=clayton_john&id=2448029

in brief, the steelers have the luxury to patiently bring him along slowly, and not expect him to come in and put up #1 wr stats immediately. he will be allowed to develop.

can you paste the article? I dont have ESPN in.

tony hipchest
01-02-2007, 04:55 PM
can you paste the article? I dont have ESPN in.sorry. dont have it. it used to be a non subscribed article but now that it is an archive i guess you have to pay to access it. i wouldve pasted the whole thing at the time (wish i wouldve) but it was fairly long. bummer.

OX1947
01-02-2007, 07:01 PM
I think its more simple. He is very talented. He is fast and the son of a gun catches everything thrown to him. If I were Big Ben and holmes, I would go talk to Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning and figure out how they can have that kind of communication for the next 8 years. Those OSU recievers, their like USC Safties, they are money players in the pros.

Haiku_Dirtt
01-03-2007, 02:26 AM
looking deeper into santonios numbers we see that 41 of his 49 catches were for 1st downs. very impressive. only 12 catches were for 20+ yds and 3 were for 40+ yet he averaged 16.8 ypc. (better than plex's career average ypc and a number burress has only topped twice. 63/988/10 td and 15.7 ypc this year for the giants)

700 punt and kick return yards with 1 td. 5 fumbles but only 2 were lost. after a poor year for the team i say him and a healthy ward are bright spots going into next season.

Jury is still out. Well. No. They were sent home. Thankfully for now.

"Tone" is without question showing flashs of brilliance. He is starting to do the right things and even better he is not in the press. I'm completely sold on his talent.

And I'm buying into the chance that he is a team player...sort of.

WHAT WORRIES ME is that history repeats. What history? Look at our last three No. 1 picks who were receivers. The Pittsburgh Steeler Org. is not a haven for problem children.

Haiku_Dirtt
01-03-2007, 02:36 AM
I think its more simple. He is very talented. He is fast and the son of a gun catches everything thrown to him. If I were Big Ben and holmes, I would go talk to Marvin Harrison and Peyton Manning and figure out how they can have that kind of communication for the next 8 years. Those OSU recievers, their like USC Safties, they are money players in the pros.

" like USC Safties, they are money players in the pros."

SC Linebackers too.

Marvin Harrison is one of the greatest receivers I've ever witnessed. Second to Rice for now. For now.

That being said. Hines Ward is worth every dime and dollar. I can't believe how much I under-estimated his on-field presence this season.

LEAD BY EXAMPLE. HINES WARD!!!!

Borski
01-03-2007, 03:06 AM
sorry. dont have it. it used to be a non subscribed article but now that it is an archive i guess you have to pay to access it. i wouldve pasted the whole thing at the time (wish i wouldve) but it was fairly long. bummer.

never mind, I didnt realize that this was an old article.

ChronoCross
01-03-2007, 07:00 AM
When looking at Holmes, you look at a young kid who missed half of training camp, and fell behind on the learning curv because of it. His fumbles that help cost us some games put in ??, but as the season went on, you seen him start to get the timing routs down better, seen less busted routes, his ball handling got better. And I believe as that last catch of the Bengals game is showing what we have to look forward to next season. I think with a good training camp with Ben and him together going into next season will totally get him on the same page and it will be totally awsome to see holmes and ward tear defenses apart.

Infamix
01-03-2007, 07:04 AM
Here you go:

Jimmy Smith's sudden retirement should prove simple solutions aren't easy in the NFL.

Smith was the Jaguars No. 1 receiver for a decade. When he clicked with Keenan McCardell, Jacksonville was a perennial playoff contender. But age eventually catches up to every athlete, and teams must plan accordingly. It would appear the simple solution to replacing a No. 1 receiver is to use a No. 1 draft pick on a receiver.

Not so fast. It's not that easy. The Jaguars have used three first-round picks in the past seven drafts on receivers -- R. Jay Soward (2000), Reggie Williams (2004) and Matt Jones (2005) -- and none has produced a season with more than 36 catches.

Finding a No. 1 receiver has been a No. 1 headache for many teams.

Since Mike Shanahan took over the Broncos in 1995, he has invested 16 draft choices in receivers and hasn't found one yet. Included in those choices are two first-round picks (Marcus Nash and Ashley Lelie), one second-round pick (Darius Watts) and two third-rounders (Travis McGriff and Chris Cole). The most catches a receiver drafted by Shanahan has had in a season is 54, by Lelie in 2004.

The list of first-round failures is endless. Sylvester Morris (Kansas City, 2000 draft), Freddie Mitchell (Philadelphia, 2001), David Terrell (Chicago, 2001), Soward (Jacksonville, 2000) and Rod Gardner (Washington, 2001) headline the list of recent failures. Eleven of the 16 first-round receivers taken between 2000 and 2003 haven't or won't get second contracts from the teams that drafted them. Of the other five, Reggie Wayne is the only one to have actually secured a new deal. The Lions have used three top-10 picks on wide receivers in the past four drafts and are still buried in the bottom of the passing stats.

In a passing league, why do teams drop the ball on receivers in the draft more than any other position?

The answer is simple: expectations.

If a first-round pick isn't putting up No. 1 receiving numbers three or four years into his contract, he's considered a disappointment and he won't be re-signed. Just because the first-round pick is included in his bio, does he have to put up No. 1 receiver numbers to be a good player?

One of the problems in the NFL is the turnover of coaches and how dramatically systems can change when new hires come in. Big receivers fit best in West Coast offenses. Smaller, quicker receivers who are better running after the catch fit better in the Mike Martz-Al Saunders-Norv Turner-Don Coryell system. But converting one receiver to fit into the other type of offense doesn't always work, so teams tend to move on and find alternatives.

Look at what's going on in Detroit. Roy Williams, Charles Rogers and Mike Williams have the ideal size for a West Coast offense that needs bigger bodies to go across the middle for catches. But they don't fit new coordinator Mike Martz's offense. Only Roy Williams has the skills to fit the Martz system. Expect Rogers to be gone before the start of the regular season, and Mike Williams might be on the way out next offseason.

High expectations drove Santana Moss and Plaxico Burress from the teams that drafted them. Despite being injury prone and inconsistent in the West Coast offense, Moss, who was the Jets' first-round pick in 2001, had a 1,105-yard season with the team in 2003. But that wasn't good enough so they shipped him to the Washington Redskins where he re-emerged as a Pro Bowl receiver and one of the most exciting players in the NFC. Indeed, Moss became the No. 1 receiver in a scheme for which his skills are a better fit.

The same can be said for Burress in Pittsburgh. He had a 1,008-yard season in 2001 and a 1,325-yard season in 2002. Good numbers. Still, the Steelers' No. 1 receiver was Hines Ward, a tough, physical leader who has carried the Steelers to the Super Bowl. Unless you're the St. Louis Rams, it's hard to have two No. 1 receivers, so someone has to be No. 2, and that was Burress.

Because of that, Burress wasn't offered a contract following the 2004 season and he left for New York where he helped the Giants and Eli Manning make the playoffs.

Unless teams want to waste time and money developing No. 1 receivers, they should change the standards on what they are looking for from first-round wide receivers. Steve Smith (Carolina), Chad Johnson (Cincinnati), Derrick Mason (Baltimore), Chris Chambers (Miami), Ward (Pittsburgh) and Deion Branch (New England) are among the many receivers who have developed into No. 1s even though they weren't taken in the first round.

It's possible to become a star in the NFL through hard-work, training and execution. Look at Smith, whose 5-foot-9, 185-pound body didn't fit the first-round prototype. The Panthers invested a third-round choice on him in 2001 thinking he might be a good third receiver who also could return kicks.

Smith came to the Panthers with an attitude. He believed he was a No. 1 receiver and played with a chip on his shoulder. His overconfidence often collided with management. But as Smith played and developed, he became the No. 1 receiver. Last year, he was the league's best receiver. He was right, he was a No. 1. But because expectations weren't unrealistic, Smith had time to develop into a Pro Bowl receiver.

It was interesting to hear Ward's offseason complaints about the Steelers using first-round picks to try to replace him. He fought and scrapped and battled to be the Steelers' go-to receiver. No No. 1 pick can take that reality away from him. The more Ben Roethlisberger goes to Ward, the more success the Steelers have.

What has to be remembered is that first-round picks go in the first-round for a reason. They have the height, speed and athletic skills that spew out numbers that place them among the top 32 athletes in the draft.

Say what you want about Lelie in Denver, but the guy is a talent. Even though he hasn't developed into the long-term replacement for Rod Smith and probably will be traded before too long, he has skills. He has averaged 17.9 yards per catch during his Broncos career. But the Broncos always wanted more out of him and found his replacement when they traded for Javon Walker. Lelie wants out and Mike Shanahan wants him out.

But the expectations for Lelie were too high because he was a No. 1 pick. If Darius Watts, a second-round disappointment, averaged 17.9 yards a catch and 42 catches a year as the team's No. 2, he'd be deemed a success and probably would get a second contract from the Broncos and more time to develop. Because Lelie didn't put up No. 1 numbers, he's being treated with disdain.

The No. 1 problem with drafting a receiver No. 1 is that he's not allowed to be a No. 2, unless he's Wayne with the Colts. It's no surprise that Wayne is the only first-round receiver drafted since 2000 who has secured a second contract from the team that drafted him.

NFL teams had better learn that first-round receivers don't always have to turn into No. 1 receivers.

John Clayton is a senior writer for ESPN.com.

Suitanim
01-12-2007, 08:11 PM
Thanks Tony...I missed the 5 TD's, but the Steelers were a little TD deficient this year. Holmes is the real deal...

tony hipchest
01-12-2007, 08:24 PM
Thanks Tony...I missed the 5 TD's, but the Steelers were a little TD deficient this year. Holmes is the real deal...well he had an additional return td and one reversed within the 1 yd line. i took the "maybe 5 td" as prediction as a best case senario prediction.

1 reception and 24 yds off is a hell of a call though. theres a thread predictin willies + deuces #s im wanting to dig up.

ChronoCross
01-12-2007, 08:50 PM
Holmes missed half of training camp which put him on the short end of the learning curve to get ready for the NFL. As season moved on so did Holmes growth in the NFL. Holmes routes and timing got better with Ben. Holmes ball handling got better. The end of the Bungholes game showed what we have to look forward to next season. I feel with a full time in camp with Ben, Holmes will be even more productive and better next season.

Suitanim
01-12-2007, 08:55 PM
Yep...he's the heir apparent for Ward.

tony hipchest
01-12-2007, 08:56 PM
Yep...he's the heir apparent for Ward.which could come sooner than later, depending on how artII decides to run the "business"

Steeldude
01-13-2007, 02:12 PM
hopefully holmes learns how to hold onto the ball next season. you barely touch him and he loses it. same problem he had in college.

Hines0wnz
01-13-2007, 02:29 PM
Yep...he's the heir apparent for Ward.

You cannot replace Hines Ward, he is a one-of-a-kind. I like Holmes but I dont see him selling out his body for run blocks and tough bone-jarring catches over the middle. The latter may happen but unless Hines can really convince Santonio that run blocking is just as important as the flashy catches down field then he may be our next Burress. I hope this is not the case because Hines really needs a good complement to open up more passing lanes.

polamalufan43
01-13-2007, 02:31 PM
which could come sooner than later, depending on how artII decides to run the "business"

Well, Hines contract ends when he is about 34 or 35. So I wouldn't be surprised if Santonio eventually succeeds Hines. Although I'd hate to see Hines go, it makes me feel a little better that Santonio might start in his role. I agree with the blocking deal though, Santonio needs to improve on the block

~Polamalufan43:tt02:

SteelersWoman
01-14-2007, 11:16 AM
I agree with the blocking deal though, Santonio needs to improve on the block
~Polamalufan43:tt02:

In my opinion, I think the kid needs to put on some weight and muscle to do that--he's a bit on the thin side to be doin blocks as good as Hines does. It would be pretty easy to just knock Santonio out of the way-- I can see him gettin' hurt, and the other guy just plowin' right on through. So in the off-season, eat up and bulk up Santonio, and take a page out of Hines' book! :thumbsup:

t-sizzlez
01-14-2007, 01:20 PM
good article

paw-n-maul-u
01-14-2007, 06:48 PM
hopefully holmes learns how to hold onto the ball next season. you barely touch him and he loses it. same problem he had in college.

what are you talking about???? ... he's known for his hands and big play potential if anything. its not that hard to do a little research before making such a bold statement

Indy_Steelers
01-14-2007, 07:02 PM
what are you talking about???? ... he's known for his hands and big play potential if anything. its not that hard to do a little research before making such a bold statement

I agree with you. He has only lost 2 punts. I do not think that is bad especially considering how many times he has touched it. they went to a lot in the 4th quarter too.

steelerbackr4life
01-14-2007, 07:11 PM
I agree he lost some key plays but he also made some key plays I like what I saw towards the end of the season.

Suitanim
01-15-2007, 07:43 PM
Holmes threw his body into blocks at OSU, and I saw him make a couple great downfield blocks this year. He'll never be as gritty as Hines Ward, but he's got more raw talent.

Preacher
01-15-2007, 11:21 PM
About Ward...

He wanted the big contract, so that he could retire a Steeler. I wouldn't be surprised if Ward pulls a Bettis the last two or three years of his career and plays for a minimal dollar amount to stay with Pittsburgh.

About Holmes...

The kid is a stud. A number of Ben's interceptions at the beginning of the year was Holmes runnin wrong/bad routes. However, Holmes has turned it around on the field.

Now, I want to see him go through a couple of offseasons drama/crime free.

nicesteel4life
01-15-2007, 11:24 PM
Now, I want to see him go through a couple of offseasons drama/crime free.

Couldn't agree more!

Preacher
01-15-2007, 11:48 PM
Holmes threw his body into blocks at OSU, and I saw him make a couple great downfield blocks this year. He'll never be as gritty as Hines Ward, but he's got more raw talent.

I saw the Carolina game when Holmes took the extra step.. came across and cracked some DB. I was impressed.

SansWetware
01-17-2007, 02:13 AM
I saw the Carolina game when Holmes took the extra step.. came across and cracked some DB. I was impressed.

I was at the game and was impressed with Holmes. That was basically a home game for Pittsburgh. They dominated the stands and the walk out of the stadium was basically a big Steelers rally.

What stood out about Santonio was how happy to be a Steeler he seemed. We stuck around and watched as he was interviewed post game. People cheered and called out his name and he looked ECSTATIC to be amidst the fans. He raised his helmet and waved to everyone. Lots of the talk was about how everyone hoped Santonio is around in a Steelers uniform for a long long time.