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MasterOfPuppets
08-21-2011, 12:29 AM
i'd spend a fifth on him...maybe even a 4th... he says he'll play any position that he's asked to play. dude is 6'5' 232lbs and runs a low 4.3 to 4.4 ... he could be a slash 5.0.
dixon wants out anyway, might as well give him his walking papers.

Pryor stages workout for NFL teams, accepts suspension


Terrelle Pryor worked out for 17 NFL teams Saturday and said afterward he wouldn't appeal his five-week suspension at the start of the NFL season.
More than half of the NFL's teams sent representatives to watch the former Ohio State quarterback try to prove he should be taken in Monday's supplemental draft. NFL Network’s Albert Breer reported the teams in attendance included the 49ers, Bengals, Bills, Browns, Buccaneers, Chargers, Chiefs, Colts, Cowboys, Dolphins, Eagles, Lions, Patriots, Raiders, Redskins, Saints and Steelers.
Steelers general manager Kevin Colbert and head coach Mike Tomlin were present, according to Breer, along with former Ohio State coach Jim Tressel.



"I have made arrangements for him to meet with several general managers," Drew Rosenhaus, Pryor's agent, said Saturday. The NFL granted Pryor eligibility into the draft on Thursday with the caveat that he wouldn't be allowed to practice for the team that selected him until Week 6. Pryor would have faced a five-game suspension had he stayed at Ohio State. Rosenhaus echoed a message delivered by Pryor, who said Saturday he will not appeal the five-game suspension imposed by the NFL, as his attorney hinted at on Friday (http://www.nfl.com/goto?id=09000d5d82192eb6). Pryor said he would sign with any team that picked him in the supplemental draft instead of trying his chances again in the regular draft in the spring.
Breer reported that while Pryor won’t be able to practice or play during his five-game suspension, he will be able to do field work with coaches, according to multiple sources. Rosenhaus told reporters Saturday that Pryor can participate in preseason games and training camp practices. The agent also said the quarterback will be allowed to attend team meetings and work out at team facilities during his suspension.
Pryor appeared in top shape Saturday, working out at a high school stadium near his hometown of Jeannette, Pa. Breer reported one scout clocked Pryor’s first 40-yard dash -- on FieldTurf -- at 4.38 seconds, with his second slightly slower in the 4.4-second range. The Associated Press reported Pryor's first 40-yard time was as fast as 4.36 seconds.
Pryor measured out at 6-foot-4 3/4 and 232 pounds, according to NFL.com senior analyst Gil Brandt, who cited multiple team sources to report that Pryor's workout showed off his strong arm, but revealed problems with his mechanics. Sources told Brandt that Pryor showed "a lot of potential."
Tressel chose to support his former star player after resigning under pressure amid an NCAA investigation that Pryor and others improperly sold memorabilia.
Pryor left school for the NFL after Tressel's departure.
"Did great," Tressel said of Pryor. "He would help lots of teams."
One team appears to have already dropped out of the mix. The Colts took a close look, but owner Jim Irsay let it be known the team won't be using a draft pick on Pryor in a Twitter update he posted Saturday.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d8219b938/article/pryor-stages-workout-for-nfl-teams-accepts-suspension?module=HP11_headline_stack

ricardisimo
08-21-2011, 03:21 AM
I'm not sure Slash 1.0 worked out well enough for us for that to be a selling point. But, yeah, why not, if he can play at least one position well. I think we're set at WR, but who knows?

steeltheone
08-21-2011, 03:50 AM
A 5th rounder would be a worth while gamble on potential alone!

3rdandlong
08-21-2011, 04:38 AM
I'm not sure I would want him, unless he could be a WR. I feel like teams that employ the wildcat don't have a good quarterback, so they have to fool you to be successful. If he can catch, he could take what we thought would be Limas Sweed's role.

ETL
08-21-2011, 08:47 AM
If and when a slash type Qb wins the Super Bowl, i will be more interested. For now it is proven that accurate pocket passers are the guys that you would want. A little mobility is helpful but if they are too mobile, they will want to run instead of throw.

fer522
08-21-2011, 09:05 AM
can he play corner
b/c we're set at WR

Atlanta Dan
08-21-2011, 09:13 AM
Since the Steelers regard 4th and 5th round picks to have little value (e.g. - giving picks away to trade up and draft Sepulveda; drafting Dennis Dixon, the Pryor of his day) I would not be surprised if they blew a draft pick on Pryor

MasterOfPuppets
08-21-2011, 11:10 AM
I'm not sure Slash 1.0 worked out well enough for us for that to be a selling point. But, yeah, why not, if he can play at least one position well. I think we're set at WR, but who knows?
as a permanent qb ? hell no.... but as an athletic role player , i'd say korkie did pretty well.
with pryors size and speed , assuming he can catch, he could line up at any position. :noidea:

DanRooney
08-21-2011, 11:33 AM
Upgrade over Dixon. Probably about it.

thumper
08-21-2011, 11:45 AM
If and when a slash type Qb wins the Super Bowl, i will be more interested. For now it is proven that accurate pocket passers are the guys that you would want. A little mobility is helpful but if they are too mobile, they will want to run instead of throw.

:thumbsup:

thumper
08-21-2011, 11:48 AM
as a permanent qb ? hell no.... but as an athletic role player , i'd say korkie did pretty well.
with pryors size and speed , assuming he can catch, he could line up at any position. :noidea:

He says he will play any position. That's only what he's saying now.
He will want to play QB - and get paid as a starting QB - in a short order.
He shows all the signs of being an attitude problem. He thinks he
is above the rules.

theplatypus
08-21-2011, 11:49 AM
as a permanent qb ? hell no.... but as an athletic role player , i'd say korkie did pretty well.
with pryors size and speed , assuming he can catch, he could line up at any position. :noidea:


Too an extent, but if I remember correctly he pretty much disappeared in the SB. Kind of the beginning of the end if you will.

Pittsburgh43
08-21-2011, 04:25 PM
Pryor just left the Steelers facilities after meeting with the team for 2 hours.

steelfury02
08-21-2011, 06:26 PM
The guy has an attitude/entitlement problem and until I'm proven otherwise I'll assume he won't be satisfied with a slash role. (Do we really know how the Steelers would utilize him - any statements from them on Pryor? )

Don't get me wrong - I'll never underestimate the Steelers FO - they don't make fast trigger decisions - so who knows maybe the guy did get a wake up call. As we all know (i.e. Ben's issues) the guy def. deserves a chance to become a better person.

I really see him as a great opportunity to fill in the #3 QB position with the chance to develop and become #2 behind a great vet in Leftwich. As someone stated - also gives Dixon a chance to shine elsewhere if that is his wishes. Yea he could have a run first mentality but the Steelers are best suited to hone his pocket skills more than any other team. (See Broncos debacle with Tebow)

What about TE, RB in goal line packages? Could earn his stripes as a punt returner? Basically not really sure but his potential does merit some consideration. The ROI could be worth it.

steelfury02
08-21-2011, 06:44 PM
Interesting excerpt from following article on Steelers website:
http://www.steelers.com/news/article-1/A-few-minutes-with-Mike-Tomlin/0e54fed0-ee30-4eba-91a8-8f40283ac7ce

Q. One of the new rules allows for 46 players on the game day roster, and the 46th guy doesnít have to be a third quarterback. How you see that being used?

A. By me, thatís to be determined based on the 53-man roster and ultimately the 46 guys we choose to suit. But obviously, there are some common thoughts and themes going on out there Ė that the third quarterback will be an inactive player if teams choose to have three quarterbacks on their 53, and that last active jersey will provide an opportunity for a return specialist, for special teams phenoms or things of that nature. I see it just generally across the board being utilized in those areas Ė whether it be a specialist on special teams, a kickoff or punt returner where teams havenít had that luxury in the past, or maybe some kick coverage guy who doesnít fit into a position, a half-linebacker/half-safety kind of guy. Or maybe it turns out to be an offensive package guy, whether heís a wildcat quarterback or something of that nature. Itís going to provide a great deal of flexibility, and I think itíll be very entertaining for the fans.

Just thought this was an interesting thought regarding Pryor visiting with the team. We don't even have to activate him for every game I guess. We'll see - prob won't happen.

Atlanta Dan
08-21-2011, 07:25 PM
NFL Network guessed Raiders are regarded as the most likely spot for Pryor, which makes sense on so many levels:chuckle:

Wallabeast17
08-21-2011, 07:35 PM
Why do we need a unproven QB? We have 4 and we only need 3. Yes one is ancient and fragile(Batch), the other young and sucks(Dixon), the other one isn't all that great but he has won games for us when Ben has gone down.(Leftwitch) Isn't that all a backup is supposed to be? I say keep all but Dixon for a year. Then the next move Batch to some kind of QB coach and then bring dixon back up.

DanRooney
08-21-2011, 07:43 PM
The guy has an attitude/entitlement problem and until I'm proven otherwise I'll assume he won't be satisfied with a slash role. (Do we really know how the Steelers would utilize him - any statements from them on Pryor? )

Don't get me wrong - I'll never underestimate the Steelers FO - they don't make fast trigger decisions - so who knows maybe the guy did get a wake up call. As we all know (i.e. Ben's issues) the guy def. deserves a chance to become a better person.

I really see him as a great opportunity to fill in the #3 QB position with the chance to develop and become #2 behind a great vet in Leftwich. As someone stated - also gives Dixon a chance to shine elsewhere if that is his wishes. Yea he could have a run first mentality but the Steelers are best suited to hone his pocket skills more than any other team. (See Broncos debacle with Tebow)

What about TE, RB in goal line packages? Could earn his stripes as a punt returner? Basically not really sure but his potential does merit some consideration. The ROI could be worth it.

I saw a lot of shoe shining vendors in New York last time I was up there.

Atlanta Dan
08-21-2011, 08:03 PM
Why do we need a unproven QB? We have 4 and we only need 3. Yes one is ancient and fragile(Batch), the other young and sucks(Dixon), the other one isn't all that great but he has won games for us when Ben has gone down.(Leftwitch) Isn't that all a backup is supposed to be? I say keep all but Dixon for a year. Then the next move Batch to some kind of QB coach and then bring dixon back up.

Steelers are regarded as deep at QB - NFL Network was speculating this evening that if Peyton Manning really will not be ready to go in week one the Colts might be looking at whomever the Steelers cut

tony hipchest
08-21-2011, 08:13 PM
Steelers are regarded as deep at QB - NFL Network was speculating this evening that if Peyton Manning really will not be ready to go in week one the Colts might be looking at whomever the Steelers cuthmmmm... that says alot.

kinda like when john elway went down and bubby brister looked like an all-pro.

it could happen.

Wallabeast17
08-21-2011, 08:15 PM
Steelers are regarded as deep at QB - NFL Network was speculating this evening that if Peyton Manning really will not be ready to go in week one the Colts might be looking at whomever the Steelers cut

Ok then that proves my point. Why are we even looking at this guy?

sharkweek
08-21-2011, 08:17 PM
I'm not sure I would want him, unless he could be a WR. I feel like teams that employ the wildcat don't have a good quarterback, so they have to fool you to be successful. If he can catch, he could take what we thought would be Limas Sweed's role.

oh how someone has quickly forgotten Randle El

he doesn't have to be a wildcat guy to work a classic Steeler gadget play

sharkweek
08-21-2011, 08:21 PM
Ok then that proves my point. Why are we even looking at this guy?

because we're just as likely to cut Dixon now, and Batch and Leftwich aren't getting any younger

besides, Pryor is a freak of nature purely on athleticism and his potential a plethora of positions, not just QB

That being said, IMO he's always come across to me as if he really has it in his head that he's going to be an all star QB, the prize position, and thus really wouldn't be happy or content as a converted player and/or slash.

Heck it was a problem we had experience with Kordell Stewart

DanRooney
08-21-2011, 08:32 PM
Dixon to Reggie Wayne=championship

Atlanta Dan
08-21-2011, 08:38 PM
besides, Pryor is a freak of nature purely on athleticism and his potential a plethora of positions, not just QB

Heck it was a problem we had experience with Kordell Stewart

Bingo

Stewart never had a good throwing motion and it fell apart under pressure in big games - IMO he was better suited to play WR with some gadget plays as he was used in 1995-96

Pryor is a great athlete but (unlike Cam Newton) his throwing mechanics are horrible - and unlike NCAA ball the defenders are as fast and strong as Pryor is - hoping a great athlete with a lousy throwing motion who had success in college (Tim Tebow) will develop into a serviceable NFL QB is a foolish gamble

Steelers presumably will stay away

sharkweek
08-21-2011, 09:01 PM
Steelers presumably will stay away

I don't think they'd stay away, however I think its a pipe dream to get a player with with that much athletic talent/size for for a throwaway draftpick. The Steelers are one of the winningest franchises in the Superbowl era because they don't make perennially stupid moves like some other franchises (the Bengals)

Heck, since you brought up Tebow, that's just a perfect example - the Broncos were absolutely dumb enough to draft him with a first round pick (should have been 3rd round or lower, teams would have been dumb to draft him even in the 2nd round where most people thought he'd land)...granted, Tebow's character helped him out there whereas Pryor's is bound to hurt, but the point still stands, some team will be dumb enough to outbid the Steelers, there's no way we waste a 3rd round pick or higher* on Pryor without knowing he'll happily commit 100% to whatever we make him do seeing as we're more than set for QB.

*granted, with our lackluster performance picking in the 2nd round maybe we would :flap: :chuckle:

StainlessStill
08-21-2011, 09:02 PM
I don't know how I really think about this. Will have more later, haha. I just don't see the use anywhere on the field plus he's serving a 5 game suspension. What good will be made? ZILCH.

MasterOfPuppets
08-21-2011, 10:19 PM
Bingo

Stewart never had a good throwing motion and it fell apart under pressure in big games - IMO he was better suited to play WR with some gadget plays as he was used in 1995-96

Pryor is a great athlete but (unlike Cam Newton) his throwing mechanics are horrible - and unlike NCAA ball the defenders are as fast and strong as Pryor is - hoping a great athlete with a lousy throwing motion who had success in college (Tim Tebow) will develop into a serviceable NFL QB is a foolish gamble

Steelers presumably will stay away
stewart was a 2nd round gamble , tebow was a first. both in my opinion went 3 rounds earlier than they should have. one of the talking heads on espn radio said he expects someone will pony up a 5th to 7th round pick for him. like dixon , had pryor played 1 more year , some sucker, like the moron in denver , would have pissed away a first round pick for him. all i'm suggesting is , since the colbert era he's only hit on about 15% of fifth round picks ,why not put in a 5th round bid ? odds are whoever they pick next year in the fifth won't amount to much anyway...:noidea: i'm not even suggesting he'll be a good backup qb , but his athleticism certainly has caught a lot of teams attention , including the steelers.

SteelersTilIDie
08-21-2011, 10:45 PM
I don't understand why y'all wouldn't take a flyer on him in the fifth round. He is a freak athlete who has a lot of experience and is a winner and can play a plethora of positions. If he doesn't pan out, just cut him it's not like 5th round picks have a ton of value anyway. He made a nice TD catch in the fiesta bowl against texas his freshmen year btw, so he can catch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrZYZktLdns&playnext=1&list=PL58EF15FBFB75C1D1

tony hipchest
08-21-2011, 11:08 PM
i think hes worth a 4th.

can he punt? :football:

ricardisimo
08-22-2011, 12:09 AM
If and when a slash type Qb wins the Super Bowl, i will be more interested. For now it is proven that accurate pocket passers are the guys that you would want. A little mobility is helpful but if they are too mobile, they will want to run instead of throw.
Randle El won a Super Bowl. So did Desmond Howard, maybe a bit of a stretch for the "slash" title, but not by much.

DanRooney
08-22-2011, 12:15 AM
i think hes worth a 4th.

can he punt? :football:

Ben can. So I guess Ben falls into the slash category too. :tt:

Rick5895
08-22-2011, 06:03 AM
If he's there in the 4th or 5th then I think its worth the gamble. He could add another dimension if he gets his head out of his ass. Players with his size, speed and athletic ability are worth the gamble of a mid to low pick.

Atlanta Dan
08-22-2011, 07:18 AM
Peter King thinks the Bengals are going to select Pryor

Teams wishing to acquire a player in a supplemental draft put in a blind bid to the league office today, and the team that bid the highest round for the player is awarded him. So if the Bengals bid a fourth-round pick for Pryor and the Raiders a fifth-, Cincinnati gets him. My favorite to pick the controversial Ohio State quarterback is Cincinnati.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/peter_king/08/21/preseason.week2/index.html?eref=sihp&sct=hp_wr_a2

Given that there are a lot of Ohio stte alums in Cincy who may be upset about Pryor's conduct helping to take out Jim Tressel, Pryor going there may not be met with unanimous enthusiasm - but given that most Steelers fans have been willing to look past non-Steelers related conduct by Roethlisberger, I guess it is a matter of letting bygones be bygones - Just Win Baby

sharkweek
08-22-2011, 10:07 AM
Randle El won a Super Bowl. So did Desmond Howard, maybe a bit of a stretch for the "slash" title, but not by much.

he meant to say athletic QB who is just as much of a threat to score with his legs as his armx

kirklandrules
08-22-2011, 10:19 AM
hmmmm... that says alot.

kinda like when john elway went down and bubby brister looked like an all-pro.

it could happen.

Not with Dixon. Can you see him guiding the Colts offense down the field?
Me neither.

I see no use on the Steelers for Pryor. He can't be a TE because realistically, he isn't going to block DEs or ILBs. He's not better than the WRs on the team. He can't be the H-back as they have tough blocking assignments. Too small to play RG:chuckle: He won't be a better return man than Brown. And I certainly wouldn't want him as a QB.

stiller39
08-22-2011, 11:37 AM
Can't remember how many bowls we won with SLASH! Pretty much didn't work out for us... I thought.
Can he block?

wera176
08-22-2011, 11:42 AM
Ben can. So I guess Ben falls into the slash category too. :tt:

Don't forget, he can tackle too! Might be a little slow for DB though... :doh:

ebsteelers
08-22-2011, 11:43 AM
Don't forget, he can tackle too! Might be a little slow for DB though... :doh:

lol yea, some how he is mobile but looks like he has poop in his draws

sharkweek
08-22-2011, 12:44 PM
whatever fantasies anyone has had about having Pryor in black and gold is all over, the Raiders, as predicted by many, were foolish enough to fall for his speed and took him in the 3rd round

kirklandrules
08-22-2011, 01:34 PM
LOL, the Raiders suck.

ricardisimo
08-22-2011, 04:25 PM
he meant to say athletic QB who is just as much of a threat to score with his legs as his armx
Randle El threw the pass that put that Super Bowl away. Besides, quarterbacks get drafted as wide receivers all the time. Look at Hines Ward, for example. The question was whether or not the Steelers should take a look at him. The answer to that question lies with the Steelers' roster: we're set at WR, and certainly at QB, so it was never really going to happen. KR/PR? Maybe, but a stretch.

sharkweek
08-22-2011, 05:55 PM
Randle El threw the pass that put that Super Bowl away. Besides, quarterbacks get drafted as wide receivers all the time. Look at Hines Ward, for example. The question was whether or not the Steelers should take a look at him. The answer to that question lies with the Steelers' roster: we're set at WR, and certainly at QB, so it was never really going to happen. KR/PR? Maybe, but a stretch.

is English a second language for you?

again, all that dude was trying to say is that he doesn't believe an athletic QB can take a team to and win the Superbowl

Randle El and Desmond Howard were WRs (Howard wasn't a QB at all, not sure why you even mention him, many WRs are used as return guys), they were never starting QBs in the NFL like K.Stewart / Vick / V.Young / Dixon / Tebow / Newton (and what Pryor wants to be) etc...

MasterOfPuppets
08-22-2011, 06:11 PM
:toofunny: ...... ^ dark horse !!!


Randle El and Desmond Howard were WRs (Howard wasn't a QB at all, not sure why you even mention him,
where was howard mentioned ?

ricardisimo
08-22-2011, 07:08 PM
is English a second language for you?

again, all that dude was trying to say is that he doesn't believe an athletic QB can take a team to and win the Superbowl

Randle El and Desmond Howard were WRs (Howard wasn't a QB at all, not sure why you even mention him, many WRs are used as return guys), they were never starting QBs in the NFL like K.Stewart / Vick / V.Young / Dixon / Tebow / Newton (and what Pryor wants to be) etc...
Dude... chill out. First of all, they're all athletic. Secondly, running quarterbacks can and have won Super Bowls, Steve Young for example. Thirdly, the question was whether or not a Slash-type would benefit the Steelers, not whether or not they needed a Slash-type at quarterback, where we are set. Fourthly, the idea is having versatile, multi-threat players, which is why I brought up Howard.

Cribbs is the same thing in Cleveland, and it's amazing to me that his name hasn't been mentioned in this thread yet. College QB, returning kicks and punts primarily, WR as well quite often, and occasionally playing QB on gadget plays/Wildcat formations. Now, Cribbs is never going to win a Super Bowl for so long as he is with the Cleveland Browns, but that has nothing to do with him or his Slash-like talents. If he were to sign tomorrow with the Steelers, Patriots, Colts, etc., he would very likely contribute greatly to a Super Bowl run.

You're obsessing over taking Pryor as a QB and playing him as such. I never suggested any such thing.

sharkweek
08-23-2011, 03:17 AM
:toofunny: ...... ^ dark horse !!!



where was howard mentioned ?

maybe actually read the thread before chiming in :flap:

Randle El won a Super Bowl. So did Desmond Howard, maybe a bit of a stretch for the "slash" title, but not by much.


Dude... chill out. First of all, they're all athletic.

"athletic QB" is the polite term used for the players at the position who aren't as big of a threat to be able to beat you strictly with their arm, ie implying they're not very good making reads or with accuracy down the field.

Secondly, running quarterbacks can and have won Super Bowls, Steve Young for example.

there's the QB who can pick apart a defense through the air and there's the QB that has to use his legs because he can't make all the reads fast enough and his instinct to tuck and run takes over. Occasionally we get a QB that scramble like Steve Young or Aaron Rodgers or even our own Ben Roethlisberger, however they are most certainly NOT "running" QBs, they are first and foremost going to beat you through the air, they might create something with their legs but in the long run the true damage will end up being through the air.

Take away their ability to run and they could still play, they'd no longer be great players, but they could do it.

Do the same for a player like Vick or Tebow and they wouldn't have even been playing college ball let alone be in the NFL.

The true pipe dream is a player that could truly do both on any given play, but the speed and physicality of the NFL makes that likelihood neigh impossible (a player might be able to do it for a few seasons before inevitable injury ends that all)

Steve Young was the closet player to do it on the passing side of things. Sure, he ran a lot, but he was able to run because of the threat of his prolific ability to pass. However all the concussions he suffered are a perfect example of why this kind of QB isn't exactly encouraged.

On the flip side we have a player like Michael Vick (who averages nearly twice the yards rushing per game than Steve Young) who's best moments passing occur because of the defense overcompensating for his ability to burn them with his legs.

Thirdly, the question was whether or not a Slash-type would benefit the Steelers
no, this derailed when you misunderstood what someone else was trying to say, it really doesn't have much to do with the original topic

You're obsessing over taking Pryor as a QB and playing him as such. I never suggested any such thing.
I'm not obsessing over Pryor as a QB, I was only trying to correct your misunderstanding of what someone else said

ricardisimo
08-23-2011, 03:33 AM
I'm not sure Slash 1.0 worked out well enough for us for that to be a selling point. But, yeah, why not, if he can play at least one position well. I think we're set at WR, but who knows?

I'm not sure I would want him, unless he could be a WR. I feel like teams that employ the wildcat don't have a good quarterback, so they have to fool you to be successful. If he can catch, he could take what we thought would be Limas Sweed's role.

as a permanent qb ? hell no.... but as an athletic role player , i'd say korkie did pretty well.
with pryors size and speed , assuming he can catch, he could line up at any position. :noidea:

What about TE, RB in goal line packages? Could earn his stripes as a punt returner? Basically not really sure but his potential does merit some consideration. The ROI could be worth it.

oh how someone has quickly forgotten Randle El

he doesn't have to be a wildcat guy to work a classic Steeler gadget play

I don't understand why y'all wouldn't take a flyer on him in the fifth round. He is a freak athlete who has a lot of experience and is a winner and can play a plethora of positions. If he doesn't pan out, just cut him it's not like 5th round picks have a ton of value anyway. He made a nice TD catch in the fiesta bowl against texas his freshmen year btw, so he can catch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lrZYZktLdns&playnext=1&list=PL58EF15FBFB75C1D1

i think hes worth a 4th.

can he punt? :football:
Please read above a whole lot of "the original topic", as you put it. Most everyone (including you, oddly enough) suggesting Pryor working for us as other-than-a-QB. There were others I didn't multi-quote that continued along this line, but why beat a dead horse?