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Atlanta Dan
09-14-2011, 09:44 PM
More fuel tossed on the fire for the rematch in November

Casey Hampton did not complain but he did confirm today what his teammates had been saying this week, that the Baltimore Ravens targeted the Steelers Pro Bowl nose tackle with illegal chop blocks for much of their game on Sunday.

An illegal chop block occurs when an offensive player engages a defensive player -- blocking him, usually straight up -- while another offensive player comes in to block the defensive player below the waist.

It's considered one of the most dangerous blocks in football, which is why it's been illegal for a long time. A defensive player's knees are more vulnerable to severe injury in such a double-team.

Linebacker Lawrence Timmons blew the whistle on the Ravens Tuesday night on the radio and both Hampton and linebacker James Farrior confirmed it today. Hampton said Baltimore center Matt Birk and the Ravens' two guards, which were Ben Grubbs and Marshal Yanda, were pulling the illegal blocks on him all day. He said he did not complain to the officials about it.

"It is what it is, I don't cry about stuff like that,'' Hampton said.

"They were doing it a lot or trying to do it alot. At times, I got out of it. It's kind of tough when you're engaged with a guy and you're not even worried about the guard and they come and just chop your legs out. That's kind of tough. There's nothing you can do about that."

No penalties were called on the Ravens for any illegal chop blocks Sunday.

"They were doing it all day,'' said Farrior, the Steelers defensive captain. "That's pretty bad."

http://plus.sites.post-gazette.com/index.php/pro-sports/steelers

What will happen in November? - something along these lines

DJnKm6ftPu0

Fire Arians
09-14-2011, 09:52 PM
i read an article on that too and was thinking to myself "isn't that illegal?". entire careers have been ended because of illegal cut blocks, if they're doing that, the refs need to put a stop to that shit. and not just concerning this game, but league wide.

JustinM
09-14-2011, 09:52 PM
i certainly hope it was illegal like they said. Whining about such things as these can make us look bad.

Fire Haley
09-14-2011, 10:01 PM
Shut up and play.

Atlanta Dan
09-14-2011, 10:09 PM
Assuming it really happened, if I were Coach Tomlin I do not send the video to Goodell - i send a recording of the chop blocks to Harbaugh with a note that it would be a shame if Haloti Ngata were to be accidentally injured when the Ravens and Steelers meet again

Or he can send a link to this article with photos

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/9/14/2426074/dirty-birds-ravens-illegally-chop-blocking

GMU Steeler
09-14-2011, 10:13 PM
That's frustrating to know if that's the case.

tony hipchest
09-14-2011, 10:17 PM
well according to m. hoge, it really happened, but then people will just call him a blind homer who doesnt actually know what he is talkin about. :rolleyes:

tony hipchest
09-14-2011, 10:19 PM
Shut up and play.

thats what he did-

"It is what it is, I don't cry about stuff like that,'' Hampton said.

SH-Rock
09-14-2011, 10:34 PM
Why are they whining like Harbaugh?

Fire Arians
09-14-2011, 10:38 PM
Why are they whining like Harbaugh?

that's a little extreme. never did they claim anything like harbaugh (we would have won if x happened). i think it's worth bringing up if they are endangering the health of other players. over the years ive seen seasons and careers cut short because of high/low cut blocking. it was made illegal for a reason

GMU Steeler
09-14-2011, 10:44 PM
I figure they're saying something now in the hopes that the league pays attention to it. Anyhow, I wouldn't say they're complaining since this is one illegal and two something that has led to serious injuries even career enders I believe.

jjpro11
09-14-2011, 11:31 PM
they didn't say it's the reason they lost, because clearly it wasn't.. i am sure Hampton doesn't want other teams watching tape and mimicking the Ravens oline tactics all year and getting away with it.

tony hipchest
09-14-2011, 11:51 PM
the other teams watch tape regardless of what hampton says. its kinda like what they get paid to do during the six days and 21 hours that they arent actually playing a football game.

watching gametape is standard preparation of every team. the tape doesnt lie. im sure all the ravens future opponents are taking note.

i, for one, will not cry, if ray lewis finally suffers a career ending injury (or any of them other dirty ratbirds for that matter).

i82much
09-15-2011, 01:05 AM
http://forum.officiating.com/football/49273-nfl-rulebook.html

See second post. Obviously this is not a completely authoritative source - it would be better to have the rulebook - but that looks pretty real to me.

Both of the plays referenced here:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/9/14/2426074/dirty-birds-ravens-illegally-chop-blocking

Are run plays. There are two definitions in the quoted rule for an illegal block on a run play:

( 5) On a running play, A1 is lined up in the backfield at the snap and subsequently chops a defensive
player engaged above the waist by A2, and such block occurs on or behind the line
of scrimmage in an area extending laterally to the positions originally occupied by the tight
end on either side.
( 6) On a running play, A1, an offensive lineman, chops a defensive player after the defensive
player has been engaged by A2 (high or low), and the initial alignment of A2 is more than
one position away from A1. This rule applies only when the block occurs at a time when the
flow of the play is clearly away from A1.

(5) would not apply as Yanda is not lined up in the backfield. (6) would not apply as Yanda (A1) is the guard and is lined up directly next to Birk (A2) and therefore Birk (A2) is not "more than one position away" from Yanda (A1). Both legal blocks, no?

Steelersfan87
09-15-2011, 02:07 AM
To the best of my knowledge: A cut block is when a blocker chops a defensive player below the waist from the side or behind. A chop block is when a blocker chops a defensive player below the waist from any position when that player is already engaged with another blocker. That forum post is almost 3 years old and has no clear source. The NFL rulebook is here: http://www.nfl.com/rulebook/digestofrules. Unfortunately there's no clear definition given here of illegal blocks within the line.

Steeldude
09-15-2011, 02:56 AM
in the next meeting do it back. do it twice as much.

solardave
09-15-2011, 04:15 AM
i read an article on that too and was thinking to myself "isn't that illegal?". entire careers have been ended because of illegal cut blocks, if they're doing that, the refs need to put a stop to that shit. and not just concerning this game, but league wide.

It is illegal but contrary to popular belief (outside of Steeler circles) we Don't get the calls. Watch any game and they could call holding on whoever is on Harrison every other play, but they don't. Ben gets his nose broken and no penalty.

We deserved to lose that game but knowing the officials are looking the other way just pisses me off. When Ben tries to throw the ball away they call "in the grasp" but yet any other time they let him get slammed to the ground or held up while someone else takes a shot at him. They call it the "Ben just trying to extend the play" non-call. It's BS and we all know it.

TRH
09-15-2011, 06:50 AM
in the next meeting do it back. do it twice as much.

and WE'LL be immediately penalized for all of them ..............

Pentheon
09-15-2011, 07:35 AM
damn I didnt even notice it in the game but then again you dont really get to see it on tv and the dumb ass announcers sure arent gonna say it. Pretty dirty if you ask me, the pics on the first page prove that they did it.

not saying thats why we lost the game because that sure as hell didnt cost us 7 turnovers and you cant expect to win a game with that many but its still sad that have to do something like that

cant wait for november

i82much
09-15-2011, 09:31 AM
damn I didnt even notice it in the game but then again you dont really get to see it on tv and the dumb ass announcers sure arent gonna say it. Pretty dirty if you ask me, the pics on the first page prove that they did it.



The pics prove that the guard chopped a player who was being blocked high by the center. This is legal, at least on a running play. Please see page 95:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_uI2zLhGzaRMWMyZjkzYjUtZjRiYy00MTU5LWE5OWQ tMjc1ZDEzNTFlM2E4&hl=en_US

For the record, I am not saying there were not illegal blocks in the game. I am just saying that the pics posted on the Steel Curtain site do not appear to establish any illegal blocking by the Ravens.

jjpro11
09-15-2011, 09:45 AM
the other teams watch tape regardless of what hampton says. its kinda like what they get paid to do during the six days and 21 hours that they arent actually playing a football game.

watching gametape is standard preparation of every team. the tape doesnt lie. im sure all the ravens future opponents are taking note.

i, for one, will not cry, if ray lewis finally suffers a career ending injury (or any of them other dirty ratbirds for that matter).

yeah, i know that.. if they mention it to the public and complain to the league about it, hopefully it will make refs watch for it in games and prevent it from further happening. let's be real.. every time a team sends tape to the league, all they're really trying to do is buying future calls. i don't know if the Steelers did that this time, but it's the same motive.

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 11:49 AM
Both of those plays shown on that site were legal blocking plays. It was a running play and the player hitting below the waist did not come from more than one position away from the blocked player, nor did he come up from the backfield to apply the block. Cool pictures though.

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 11:53 AM
the other teams watch tape regardless of what hampton says. its kinda like what they get paid to do during the six days and 21 hours that they arent actually playing a football game.

watching gametape is standard preparation of every team. the tape doesnt lie. im sure all the ravens future opponents are taking note.

i, for one, will not cry, if ray lewis finally suffers a career ending injury (or any of them other dirty ratbirds for that matter).

I wouldn't either in this case, since the blocks were legal. I would be bummed out big time though. I like listening to Steeler's fans talking about other teams being dirty. I think some of your LBs have a direct deposit account linked to the Commissioner's bank account. Hell, they probably pay with Paypal. One-click quick pay LMAO. But, I'm sure it's just he Commish picking on the Steelers.

tanda10506
09-15-2011, 12:23 PM
Its cool that Timmons said something. Normally I dont like post game complaints like that, but it could have easily ended Hamptons career. New form of chicken s#@$ low for the Sh#tbirds, if that was possible.

i82much
09-15-2011, 12:28 PM
I wouldn't either in this case, since the blocks were legal. I would be bummed out big time though. I like listening to Steeler's fans talking about other teams being dirty. I think some of your LBs have a direct deposit account linked to the Commissioner's bank account. Hell, they probably pay with Paypal. One-click quick pay LMAO. But, I'm sure it's just he Commish picking on the Steelers.

Dude stop. You're just trying to rile stuff up. There is a legitimate point to be made that the blocks were legal, everything else is trash talk.

Danny136200
09-15-2011, 12:48 PM
Why are they whining like Harbaugh?

They are not, they just pointed that out

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 12:53 PM
Dude stop. You're just trying to rile stuff up. There is a legitimate point to be made that the blocks were legal, everything else is trash talk.

You're right. I just thought it was ironic and also a valid point. I got a little defensive, sorry. ;)

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 12:56 PM
Its cool that Timmons said something. Normally I dont like post game complaints like that, but it could have easily ended Hamptons career. New form of chicken s#@$ low for the Sh#tbirds, if that was possible.

Really? Again, the irony.

i82much
09-15-2011, 12:59 PM
Its cool that Timmons said something. Normally I dont like post game complaints like that, but it could have easily ended Hamptons career. New form of chicken s#@$ low for the Sh#tbirds, if that was possible.

Honestly man - and I wear purple glasses, so take it for what it's worth - having read the rules and looked at the two blocks and the pictures, I think both were perfectly legit. That is not to say that there weren't illegal blocks by the Ravens during the game, but if so I don't think those two pictures show it.

Fire Haley
09-15-2011, 01:22 PM
The story is up on PFT now and the Steelers are taking a beating for being whiners.....just like I predicted

shut up and play

Steelersfan87
09-15-2011, 01:29 PM
I'm going to trust that all of the media outlets that covered this story understand the way that the rule is implemented and enforced better than internet posters until something official is ever said about this situation.

jjpro11
09-15-2011, 01:29 PM
The story is up on PFT now and the Steelers are taking a beating for being whiners.....just like I predicted

shut up and play

lol you knew that was coming.. we're one of the most hated teams in the league, probably only behind the Patriots.

Fire Haley
09-15-2011, 01:42 PM
I got nothing against Casey taking care of his knees, but I would have preferred they quietly sent the tapes to the league office and deal with it internally.


Once you get the "whiner" label - it's hard to shake...

see:

Seahawks

JustinM
09-15-2011, 04:24 PM
lol you knew that was coming.. we're one of the most hated teams in the league, probably only behind the Patriots.

looks like people just hate teams that win a lot

i82much
09-15-2011, 04:31 PM
I'm going to trust that all of the media outlets that covered this story understand the way that the rule is implemented and enforced better than internet posters until something official is ever said about this situation.

This legit enough for you?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/15/steelers-apparently-dont-understand-the-chop-block-rule/

Steelersfan87
09-15-2011, 04:54 PM
Yes, but the problem is that there were other chop blocks during the game which were illegal, including chops by a tight end on running plays and chops blocks on passing plays as well, for which the rules are different:

( 1) On a forward pass play, A1 chops a defensive player while the defensive player is physically
engaged by the blocking attempt of A2.
( 2) On a forward pass play in which A2 physically engages a defensive player with a blocking
attempt, A1 chops the defensive player after the contact by A2 has been broken and while
A2 is still confronting the defensive player.
( 3) On a forward pass play, A1 chops a defensive player while A2 confronts the defensive
player in a pass-blocking posture but is not physically engaged with the defensive player
(a “lure”).
( 4) On a forward pass play, A1 blocks a defensive player in the area of the thigh or lower, and
A2, simultaneously or immediately after the block by A1, engages the defensive player high.
Note: Each of the above circumstances in sub-sections (1) through (4), which describes a chopblock
foul on a forward-pass play, also applies on a play in which an offensive player indicates an
apparent attempt to pass block but the play ultimately becomes a run.

Speaking more broadly, however, recognizing that some of these blocks, including those that are actually being discussed, are within the rules, all that changes, from my perspective, is that instead of having a problem with what the Ravens did, I now have a problem with the rule itself. I don't think any chop block should be legal, and I say this not just because of what happened, but because I think that it's way too dangerous of a maneuver for it to be allowed, and I thought that it wasn't. I really don't see how different it is if a guard or a tackle chop blocks a nose tackle being stood up by a center.

i82much
09-15-2011, 05:21 PM
Yes, but the problem is that there were other chop blocks during the game which were illegal, including chops by a tight end on running plays and chops blocks on passing plays as well, for which the rules are different:



Speaking more broadly, however, recognizing that some of these blocks, including those that are actually being discussed, are within the rules, all that changes, from my perspective, is that instead of having a problem with what the Ravens did, I now have a problem with the rule itself. I don't think any chop block should be legal, and I say this not just because of what happened, but because I think that it's way too dangerous of a maneuver for it to be allowed, and I thought that it wasn't. I really don't see how different it is if a guard or a tackle chop blocks a nose tackle being stood up by a center.

Well, ok. I'm sure there were penalties on both sides that weren't called. As far as the visual evidence I've seen, it appears the blocking was legal within the rules as they stand.

Interesting tidbit, there's an article on the Ravens site where Cam basically says we called a lot more zone blocking this game than we have historically.

Baltimore Ravens Fan
09-15-2011, 05:40 PM
http://blogs.baltimoreravens.com/2011/09/15/steelers-wrong-on-chop-block-rule/

I can post biased information too, but at least mine is right!

stb_steeler
09-15-2011, 05:52 PM
in the next meeting do it back. do it twice as much.

There ya go...

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2011, 05:57 PM
This legit enough for you?

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/15/steelers-apparently-dont-understand-the-chop-block-rule/

If you want a good working definition of oxymoron "PFT and legit" fits the bill

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2011, 05:59 PM
Well, ok. I'm sure there were penalties on both sides that weren't called. As far as the visual evidence I've seen, it appears the blocking was legal within the rules as they stand.

Interesting tidbit, there's an article on the Ravens site where Cam basically says we called a lot more zone blocking this game than we have historically.

Who is this "we"? - are you a player or a coach for the Ravens? Apparently so since you are on a first name basis with "Cam"

i82much
09-15-2011, 06:02 PM
Who is this "we"? - are you a player or a coach for the Ravens? Apparently so since you are on a first name basis with "Cam"

You've never said to someone "we need Ben to play well this Sunday?"

Anyway, if you've got a valid point as to why those pics show illegal blocks, I am all ears. Educate me.

i82much
09-15-2011, 06:03 PM
If you want a good working definition of oxymoron "PFT and legit" fits the bill

Dude read the rule, look at the pictures, and see what you think.

Twentyvalve
09-15-2011, 06:58 PM
Why are they whining like Harbaugh?

I don't think they were whining. I think they were asked about it. When a reporter or host asks a player something, the player should provide an honest answer. It is not as if they rented commercial time on prime time TV and aired their complaints.

I don't get it. What are they supposed to do, lie?

Whodis
09-15-2011, 07:23 PM
I think they ran a story on this on WGAS-TV (Who Gives A $hit channel).

Chop blocks were the least of our worries. I do know for a fact the defense didn't go to the sideline, get pissed off that they were being chop blocked and come out knocking down O-lineman.

No matter how you spin this it just doesn't change anything. Spend less time on the radio and more time getting things right on the field. I'm almost as excited for the rematch against these bitches as I am Arians retirement

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2011, 08:00 PM
Dude read the rule, look at the pictures, and see what you think.

Dude - Merrill Hoge played the game

Jim Florio is a failed labor lawyer from West Virginia who operates an online gossip sheet

And i am supposed to believe Florio? Another article on his site today had this to say about the blocks

The NFL has taken a lot of steps toward protecting the heads of receivers and quarterbacks. Referees need to do a better job of protecting the knees of defensive linemen.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/15/steelers-mad-about-ravens-chop-blocks/

I know you are excited your team (or should I say "you"?) finally won a meaningful game against the Steelers on opening day, but walk me through your vast expertise about playing in the NFL before you start coming around here to lecture us about the rules

i82much
09-15-2011, 08:27 PM
Dude - Merrill Hoge played the game

Jim Florio is a failed labor lawyer from West Virginia who operates an online gossip sheet

And i am supposed to believe Florio? Another article on his site today had this to say about the blocks

The NFL has taken a lot of steps toward protecting the heads of receivers and quarterbacks. Referees need to do a better job of protecting the knees of defensive linemen.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/15/steelers-mad-about-ravens-chop-blocks/

I know you are excited your team (or should I say "you"?) finally won a meaningful game against the Steelers on opening day, but walk me through your vast expertise about playing in the NFL before you start coming around here to lecture us about the rules

It's just reading. I'm not saying the Steelers are whining and I'm not saying the rule shouldn't be different. I'm just saying when you apply the rule to the pics, the blocks shown are legal.

Honestly man seems more like you're digging your heels in rather than thinking for yourself. If you take a breath, read the rule, and apply it, the answer is pretty apparent. As it turns out, it's not the answer you would like.

And for the record, I am only referring to the pics shown here:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/9/14/2426074/dirty-birds-ravens-illegally-chop-blocking

Whether Hoge has some other plays he has identified is beyond me. I'm not saying Hoge is wrong, I'm just saying those pics don't illustrate illegal blocks.

Rick5895
09-15-2011, 08:32 PM
While I was watching Playbook on the NFLN this evening, they showed a play where Timmons actually made a tackle. But it also showed hampton engaged with the center Birk and Grubbs clearly going for the Knees. NO Flag. We stunk in that game but that kind of football is just cheap garbage.

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 08:36 PM
Dude - Merrill Hoge played the game

Jim Florio is a failed labor lawyer from West Virginia who operates an online gossip sheet

And i am supposed to believe Florio? Another article on his site today had this to say about the blocks

The NFL has taken a lot of steps toward protecting the heads of receivers and quarterbacks. Referees need to do a better job of protecting the knees of defensive linemen.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2011/09/15/steelers-mad-about-ravens-chop-blocks/

I know you are excited your team (or should I say "you"?) finally won a meaningful game against the Steelers on opening day, but walk me through your vast expertise about playing in the NFL before you start coming around here to lecture us about the rules

Dude - Merrill Hoge is wrong. Just because you do something, doesn't mean you are never wrong about it.

You have a valid OPINION about what the refs should do about extending the chop block rule, and I agree that that should be revisited. But, until they do that; Merrill Hoge, you, and the authors of the article you keep posting, are wrong. What the Ravens did in that game was legal. If you have other images or videos showing different plays showing illegal chop blocks, post them.

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 08:39 PM
While I was watching Playbook on the NFLN this evening, they showed a play where Timmons actually made a tackle. But it also showed hampton engaged with the center Birk and Grubbs clearly going for the Knees. NO Flag. We stunk in that game but that kind of football is just cheap garbage.

Again, on a running play, unless the blocker is coming from more than one position away to engage below the waist, it is a legal block. Birk is the center, Grubbs is a guard, hence coming over from one position away to make the block. Legal play.

Rick5895
09-15-2011, 08:42 PM
Again, on a running play, unless the blocker is coming from more than one position away to engage below the waist, it is a legal block. Birk is the center, Grubbs is a guard, hence coming over from one position away to make the block. Legal play.

You can not hit a player who is engaged with another player below the waist, no matter where you come from. Its an illegal chop block, clip what ever you want to call it and it is illegal and is cheap, not why we lost the game but cheap all the same. But you appear to be a Ratbird fan so that might explain your position on the matter.

i82much
09-15-2011, 08:45 PM
A guard can most certainly hit a defender who is engaged with the center below the waist on a run play, and that is what the pics shown here:

http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2011/9/14/2426074/dirty-birds-ravens-illegally-chop-blocking

illustrate. Whether Hoge has identified some other instances on the tape that actually do show illegal blocking is another question.

55BaileyFan
09-15-2011, 08:46 PM
http://steelerfreakmov.blogspot.com/2011/09/ravens-illegal-blocking.html

There are screen shots that show how dirty the Ravens were blocking. The second one is the most telling ot me.

Mick0311
09-15-2011, 08:49 PM
You can not hit a player who is engaged with another player below the waist, no matter where you come from. Its an illegal chop block, clip what ever you want to call it and it is illegal and is cheap, not why we lost the game but cheap all the same. But you appear to be a Ratbird fan so that might explain your position on the matter.

You have no idea what you are talking about. Go up a bit in the post and read the rules that someone posted. :tt03:

Rick5895
09-15-2011, 09:20 PM
You have no idea what you are talking about. Go up a bit in the post and read the rules that someone posted. :tt03:

I didn't read the entire thread. I coach in Canada and what I described is clearly against the rules here. Regardless, going for knees in that situation is cheap. But once again legal block ot not we stunk whether or not the blocks are legal or not.

SH-Rock
09-15-2011, 09:23 PM
that's a little extreme. never did they claim anything like harbaugh (we would have won if x happened). i think it's worth bringing up if they are endangering the health of other players. over the years ive seen seasons and careers cut short because of high/low cut blocking. it was made illegal for a reason

I agree it's not to the extreme, but we all know Harrison is held almost every single game, but doesn't complain one bit. But when we are blown out of water "excuses" come out. Sure illegal blocking is not good they should worry more about the basics that they lacked in.

i82much
09-15-2011, 09:43 PM
I didn't read the entire thread. I coach in Canada and what I described is clearly against the rules here. Regardless, going for knees in that situation is cheap. But once again legal block ot not we stunk whether or not the blocks are legal or not.

Some have suggested the NFL should change the rule. I can't disagree - sounds dangerous to me. Even as a Baltimore-born Ravens fan I don't want to see Hampton get hurt. But reading the rule and looking at those pics, can't see how Yanda's block violates the rules.

And I do get the sense the rule is designed to protect the defender, at least in the sense that the tackle can't do it so there's no running start. I mean zone blocking has been around for a long time, at least since Denver started doing it all the time, and I don't know that there has been a rash of injuries for defensive tackles since that time.

Of interest (not authoritative but hey, neither are some of the other sources that have been discussed):

http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2005/zone-blocking-vs-man-blocking

Ricco Suavez
09-15-2011, 09:49 PM
I was looking for the rule pertaining to chop blocks and the only version that PFT stated was the only version like it that I found, but I found numerous definitions including ESPN articles that a chop block is ANY block below the waist while a defender is engaged with another blocker. No where other than PFT's version did I find the player has to come from more than 1 position on the line. If someone can find a rule please post. NFL rule 12 Section 1 Article 16

i82much
09-15-2011, 09:54 PM
I was looking for the rule pertaining to chop blocks and the only version that PFT stated was the only version like it that I found, but I found numerous definitions including ESPN articles that a chop block is ANY block below the waist while a defender is engaged with another blocker. No where other than PFT's version did I find the player has to come from more than 1 position on the line. If someone can find a rule please post.

Page 95:

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B_uI2zLhGzaRMWMyZjkzYjUtZjRiYy00MTU5LWE5OWQ tMjc1ZDEzNTFlM2E4&hl=en_US

article 16, section 6.

tony hipchest
09-15-2011, 10:10 PM
Dude - Merrill Hoge is wrong. Just because you do something, doesn't mean you are never wrong about it.

You have a valid OPINION about what the refs should do about extending the chop block rule, and I agree that that should be revisited. But, until they do that; Merrill Hoge, you, and the authors of the article you keep posting, are wrong. What the Ravens did in that game was legal. If you have other images or videos showing different plays showing illegal chop blocks, post them.how can you possibly say merrill hoge is wrong?

john q. public doesnt have access to the coaching film. nobody does besides the teams, production crews, and nfl films affiliated television programming. how could some random fan provide "the other images or videos"?

hoge does, and breaks down every single play of every single game. its his JOB to know the rules and analyze what he sees.

just because we didnt see the patriots tape of the rams practice doesnt mean it didnt exist. just because we didnt see the destroyed archives of what the patriots were fined for filming, doesnt mean it wasnt there.

there is a HUGE difference in what one sees while watching a game on tv vs the coaching tapes.

thats why its called coaching tapes, and thats why they use it.

i82much
09-15-2011, 10:17 PM
how can you possibly say merrill hoge is wrong?

john q. public doesnt have access to the coaching film. nobody does besides the teams, production crews, and nfl films affiliated television programming. how could some random fan provide "the other images or videos"?


That's a perfectly fair point, but if he's going to cast aspersions shouldn't he substantiate them?

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2011, 10:23 PM
Dude - Merrill Hoge is wrong. Just because you do something, doesn't mean you are never wrong about it.

You have a valid OPINION about what the refs should do about extending the chop block rule, and I agree that that should be revisited. But, until they do that; Merrill Hoge, you, and the authors of the article you keep posting, are wrong. What the Ravens did in that game was legal. If you have other images or videos showing different plays showing illegal chop blocks, post them.

Are you posting under 2 different names or has this board somehow attracted a subset of the Raven fan base that also are fans of The Big Lebowski? (that may be too subtle for you since my guess is you were in pre-school when that movie came out in 1998)

You have an opinion - i have an opinion - Merrill Hoge has an opinion - my bet is only one of the three of us (it ain't you dude) played in the NFL and gets paid to analyze the games

I will ask you the same question I ask your fellow dude - walk me through your expertise on the NFL that extends beyond being for whatever the Ravens do before I should give any credence to your interpretation of the rules

Based on the fact that in another post you do not recall the Ravens were called for a horse collar tackle on their first tackle of the game I find it hard to believe you pay much attention to the nuances of line play when you watch the games

i82much
09-15-2011, 10:32 PM
Are you posting under 2 different names or has this board somehow attracted a subset of the Raven fan base that also are fans of The Big Lebowski? (that may be too subtle for you since my guess is you were in pre-school when that movie came out in 1998)

You have an opinion - i have an opinion - Merrill Hoge has an opinion - my bet is only one of the three of us (it ain't you dude) played in the NFL and gets paid to analyze the games

I will ask you the same question I ask your fellow dude - walk me through your expertise on the NFL that extends beyond being for whatever the Ravens do before I should give any credence to your interpretation of the rules

Based on the fact that in another post you do not recall the Ravens were called for a horse collar tackle on their first tackle of the game I find it hard to believe you pay much attention to the nuances of line play when you watch the games

Have you read the rule?

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2011, 10:33 PM
That's a perfectly fair point, but if he's going to cast aspersions shouldn't he substantiate them?

After watching the end zone copy of the coaching tape the ravens O line had several illegal chop blocks on steeled D that were never called

http://twitter.com/#!/merrilhoge/status/114157543659552768

So are saying he is lying or that he needs to tell ESPN to give him air time to show the plays?

tony hipchest
09-15-2011, 10:36 PM
That's a perfectly fair point, but if he's going to cast aspersions shouldn't he substantiate them?maybe tune in to" match up" sunday morning at the butt crack of dawn....

Atlanta Dan
09-15-2011, 10:41 PM
Have you read the rule?

Yeah - I read the rule - you read the rule - so what?

Are you a referee or a coach - I assume you are not a player - correct me if I am wrong

Did you break down the coaches film like Hoge did? Have you reviewed every block that was made on Sunday?

Or are you just here to troll after a Ravens win?

My posts have repeated what the players and commentators have said - I am not personally claiming i know whether chop blocks occurred or not

OTOH you are personally claiming the Ravens did not chop block - since I doubt you have reviewed the video of the game and are anything more than a fan, with all due respect you do not know WTF you are talking about as to whether or not chop blocks occurred

If you do have a basis for your opinion, please share
:drink:

i82much
09-15-2011, 10:50 PM
Whether Hoge has some other plays he has identified is beyond me. I'm not saying Hoge is wrong, I'm just saying those pics don't illustrate illegal blocks.

Hey Atlanta Dan - I am just going to quote myself here to set the record straight on exactly what I said. I agree with you that Hoge may have identified some stuff on some other plays - neither of us has any way of knowing until he produces something. My point was just that the pics shown on the Steel Curtain site didn't establish a violation and if you read the rule that will become apparent.

I tried to stay in my lane so to speak and not be hard on Hoge because I realize he's got tape I don't have. I do think it would be best if he were to produce whatever it is he was looking at, but as you suggested that may not be practical. But I think if you read my comments they are all fairly limited to the pics on the Steel Curtain site and in no way did I generalize to the entire game or suggest that Hoge was lying. I'd ask that you read my comments fairly with an open mind before you jump down my throat. Not every fan of another team that posts here is trying to be a jerk and there is an interesting subtlety to the rules that is worthy of discussion. Or at least I think so.

tony hipchest
09-15-2011, 11:50 PM
That's a perfectly fair point, but if he's going to cast aspersions shouldn't he substantiate them?another question in the form of an analogy...

if you go to the doctor for what you feel is food poisoning, or terrible gas, and the doctor tells you that you need your appendix removed immediately before it bursts,
do you request an arthroscopic insision and video image of an inflamed appendix, or do you trust the professional who who has diagnosed and performed thousands of appendectomies?

i82much
09-16-2011, 12:03 AM
another question in the form of an analogy...

if you go to the doctor for what you feel is food poisoning, or terrible gas, and the doctor tells you that you need your appendix removed immediately before it bursts,
do you request an arthroscopic insision and video image of an inflamed appendix, or do you trust the professional who who has diagnosed and performed thousands of appendectomies?

Sure, but under those circumstances I'm in a hurry. I've got time for a journalist to substantiate their statements.

Here's what I know for sure:

1) I don't have any reason to believe the pics shown earlier in this thread show a violation.
2) Hoge may very well have identified violations in the game tape that I am completely unaware of.
3) If Hoge, Atlanta Dan, or Tony Hipchest comes for my appendix, I am going to want to see the tape first. (kidding).

Cheers all.

Mick0311
09-16-2011, 01:40 AM
how can you possibly say merrill hoge is wrong?

john q. public doesnt have access to the coaching film. nobody does besides the teams, production crews, and nfl films affiliated television programming. how could some random fan provide "the other images or videos"?

hoge does, and breaks down every single play of every single game. its his JOB to know the rules and analyze what he sees.

just because we didnt see the patriots tape of the rams practice doesnt mean it didnt exist. just because we didnt see the destroyed archives of what the patriots were fined for filming, doesnt mean it wasnt there.

there is a HUGE difference in what one sees while watching a game on tv vs the coaching tapes.

thats why its called coaching tapes, and thats why they use it.

Fair point. I was of the understanding that he was commenting on the plays that were made public and seen in the still photos and videos circulating the net regarding the dirty plays. If those were what he was talking about, than he was wrong. If he was talking about other plays, than I guess I will have to take his word about the plays they decided not to show to prove their point...for some reason.

Mick0311
09-16-2011, 01:44 AM
Are you posting under 2 different names or has this board somehow attracted a subset of the Raven fan base that also are fans of The Big Lebowski? (that may be too subtle for you since my guess is you were in pre-school when that movie came out in 1998)

You have an opinion - i have an opinion - Merrill Hoge has an opinion - my bet is only one of the three of us (it ain't you dude) played in the NFL and gets paid to analyze the games

I will ask you the same question I ask your fellow dude - walk me through your expertise on the NFL that extends beyond being for whatever the Ravens do before I should give any credence to your interpretation of the rules

Based on the fact that in another post you do not recall the Ravens were called for a horse collar tackle on their first tackle of the game I find it hard to believe you pay much attention to the nuances of line play when you watch the games

There is no other interpretations of the rule. It is plain as day. If they are talking about the clips that are circulating the web, they are wrong, because those were legal plays. If he is talking about other plays they decided not to show as proof, than I have no opinion on those.

And, The Dude abides. Don't presume you know squat about me. :blah:

tony hipchest
09-16-2011, 02:08 AM
Fair point. I was of the understanding that he was commenting on the plays that were made public and seen in the still photos and videos circulating the net regarding the dirty plays. If those were what he was talking about, than he was wrong. If he was talking about other plays, than I guess I will have to take his word about the plays they decided not to show to prove their point...for some reason.

"they DECIDED NOT to show"??? lol

a reasonable person would probably put together a timeline within the confines of their preofession.

im pretty sure jaws and hoge gain access to the coaching tapes of 16 nfl games sometime on tuesday, following the final game of the week (jaws cant very well begin reviewing monday nights game when he has to prepare for it and actually call the game).

thats 16 games X 1 hr/game just to review the tape. im sure these guys sleep and figure the final tape is broken down by wednesday night (which is exactly when jaws tweeted his tweet in real time).

gotta love modern media. im pretty sure ESPN isnt gonna call them in for a BREAKING NEWS segment for what they just reviewed while watching tape.

i suggest reading hoge's timeline. its pretty obvious he is tweeting as he is reviewing (or immediately after) doing his job of preparing for his show.

Finished watching tape on steeler D, the ravens took steeler d strength and made it a weakness! All their player makers looked slow!


After watching the end zone copy of the coaching tape the ravens O line had several illegal chop blocks on steeled D that were never called


Eagles D does not care about stopping the run you can tell by the way they line up! Just look at the ends they are so wide


Cards corner Peterson needs a lot of technique work to be even a good corner in this league he had a bad day last week!


Packers use the back shoulder throw more than any team in football. It appears on tape its an option to for everyone no matter what route


etc. these posts are in succession. pretty obvious there is no bias.

now when the media revealed that osama bin laden was killed, did you immediately need the special ops tape of the live action video feed to believe it to be true?

maybe you just trusted the professionals who reviewed and confirmed it?

if not, i'd say you are a conspiracy theorist....

not that theres anything wrong with that.

i82much
09-16-2011, 10:16 AM
I guess part of this goes to exactly what Hoge found. Was it once, twice, 50 times? I find it hard to believe the Ravens were committing penalties all day long and the Steelers nobly decided to grin and bear it rather than say something to the referees. Not one flag for an illegal block, no indication that the Ravens have been fined or anything of that sort. Hampton just didn't want to whine and the refs never noticed this going on all game long?

That said, if there were a few instances of illegal blocks then fine, the refs could have missed it, certainly. And Hoge could have just found it on the tape and tweeted about it.

Mick0311
09-16-2011, 11:07 AM
"they DECIDED NOT to show"??? lol

a reasonable person would probably put together a timeline within the confines of their preofession.

im pretty sure jaws and hoge gain access to the coaching tapes of 16 nfl games sometime on tuesday, following the final game of the week (jaws cant very well begin reviewing monday nights game when he has to prepare for it and actually call the game).

thats 16 games X 1 hr/game just to review the tape. im sure these guys sleep and figure the final tape is broken down by wednesday night (which is exactly when jaws tweeted his tweet in real time).

gotta love modern media. im pretty sure ESPN isnt gonna call them in for a BREAKING NEWS segment for what they just reviewed while watching tape.

i suggest reading hoge's timeline. its pretty obvious he is tweeting as he is reviewing (or immediately after) doing his job of preparing for his show.











etc. these posts are in succession. pretty obvious there is no bias.

now when the media revealed that osama bin laden was killed, did you immediately need the special ops tape of the live action video feed to believe it to be true?

maybe you just trusted the professionals who reviewed and confirmed it?

if not, i'd say you are a conspiracy theorist....

not that theres anything wrong with that.

Fair enough. I never thought Hoge was being biased by the way, I just thought he had a knee-jerk reaction to a man going at another man's legs while he was already engaged and thought like so many others did that it was a chop block. I just find it hard to believe that the still shots that were hand picked to accompany the accusing articles are not the same ones that Hoge is talking about. Those shots were put out there as supporting evidence for multiple articles. Now there are numerous articles stating that the people calling them illegal are wrong, yet no other images have surfaced as rebuttal. You know how fans are. If there were worse blocks than the ones we have seen over and over again, they would have surfaced. Either way, nothing is coming out of it. The story will die off as long as no other proof emerges. I'm cool with that, since the only visual proof given has been proved legal. Anyway, moving on.

As far as the Bin Laden analogy, no I wouldn't need video tape. It was fairly obvious to anyone with a brain that the man was killed. When the other side admits it, you can be pretty sure of it. Trust me, those guys love to rub it in when we miss a target. lol.

Mick0311
09-16-2011, 11:17 AM
I guess part of this goes to exactly what Hoge found. Was it once, twice, 50 times? I find it hard to believe the Ravens were committing penalties all day long and the Steelers nobly decided to grin and bear it rather than say something to the referees. Not one flag for an illegal block, no indication that the Ravens have been fined or anything of that sort. Hampton just didn't want to whine and the refs never noticed this going on all game long?

That said, if there were a few instances of illegal blocks then fine, the refs could have missed it, certainly. And Hoge could have just found it on the tape and tweeted about it.

Now that the rule has been exposed, nothing else has come forward. You know darn right well, that if there was one illegal block some fan site would have clipped that out and put it out there, as they did in the initial article claiming foul. Homers will be homers though, we have them on our forums as well lol.

Atlanta Dan
09-16-2011, 12:05 PM
Homers will be homers though, we have them on our forums as well lol.

And sometimes we have homers for other teams visit here as well:chuckle:

stiller39
09-16-2011, 01:06 PM
after that performance, please, just play football.